Commons Sitting of 17 July 1838

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a third time:—Port of London Coal Trade.
Petitions presented. By Mr. BRODIE, from Salisbury, against the County-rate Bill.—By Mr. PIGOTT, from Woodstock, against the Beer Act.—By Sir C. STYLE, from Stockton-on-Tees, and by Mr. A. SMITH, from Norwich, against Encouragement of Idolatrous Worship in India.—By Mr. F. MAULE, from Elgin, in favour of the Scots Burghs Bill.—By Captain ALSAGER, against the Grant to Maynooth.—By Mr. E. HAYES, from Donegal, for the restoration of the Suppressed Bishoprics; and against the National system of Education in Ireland.—By Colonel ANSON, from a place in Staffordshire, for an improved system of General Education.—By Mr. LANGDALE, from a gentleman named Walker, against the Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt Bill.—By Mr. MAHER, from New Ross, and by Lord CLEMENTS, from Roscommon, complaining of Grievances in the Spirit Trade.

MILITIA ESTIMATES.
Lord John Russellmoved the appointment of the Committee on Militia Estimates.
Mr. Humeobjected. He did not see that any benefit could result from its labours, and he did not believe, that in time of war the militia staff would be anything but useless.
Lord John Russellhad consulted the Duke of Wellington upon this point, and he found that the opinion of the noble Duke differed very much from that of the hon. Member for Kilkenny.
Mr. Divettsaid, that it was impossible if a war broke out, that a militia staff could be of any use whatever.
Lord John Russellintended to introduce a measure by which the militia force would be rendered more effective.
Colonel Salweysaid, that the militia was a most useful and constitutional force, and he regretted, that the noble Lord had taken the advice of the Duke of Wellington and reduced it. If the noble Lord would take the advice of his political friends they would be much better pleased.
Mr. Humemoved, that the committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records. He was desirous, as the committee was appointed, to have the subject fully investigated.
Sir H. Hardingesaid, that if the hon. Member wanted to take the committee out of the hands of Government, he had better move for a select committee.
Mr. Hodgeshoped, that the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) would take for the basis of any measure affecting the militia, a rule, that whenever they were assembled at any time they should be subject to martial law.
Lord John Russellsaid, he thought it better that an inquiry such as that proposed by the hon. Member for Kilkenny should be instituted at the commencement of the next Session.
The House divided on Mr. Hume's motion: Ayes 25; Noes 102: Majority 77.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, Major

Hector, C. J.

Brotherton, J.

Kinnaird, hon. A.

Bryan, G.

Lushington, C.

Chalmers, P.

Martin, J.

Collins, W.

Muskett, G. A.

Easthope, J.

Pattison J.

Finch, F.

Pechell, Capt.

Gillon, W. D.

Salwey, Colonel

Grote, G.

Sheil, R. L.

Hastie, A.

Stansfield, W. R.

285

Stewart, J.

Yates, J. A.

Thornely, T.

TELLERS.

Vigors, N. A.

Divett, E.

Wallace, R.

Hume, J.

List of the NOES.

A'Court, Captain

Hughes, W. B.

Adam, Admiral

Hurst, R. H.

Alsager, Captain

Hurt, F.

Alston, R.

Ingham, R.

Anson, hon. Col.

James, W.

Barnard, E. G.

James, Sir W. C.

Barrington, Viscount

Knight, H. G.

Bernal, R.

Labouchere, H.

Blackburne, I.

Langton, W. G.

Blackstone, W.

Lincoln, Earl of

Boldero, H. G.

Lowther, J. H.

Bowes, J.

Lygon, hon. General

Broadley, H.

Mackenzie, T.

Brodie, W. B.

Mahon, Viscount

Bruges, W, H. L.

Maule, hon. F.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Mildmay, P. St. J.

Campbell, Sir J.

Miles, P. W. S

Canning, Sir S.

Parker, J.

Chute, W. L. W.

Parker, R. T.

Conyngham, Lord

Patten, J. W.

Corry, hon. H.

Perceval, Colonel

Craig, W. G.

Perceval, hon. G.

Darby, G.

Ponsonby, hon. J.

Denison, W. J.

Praed, W. M.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Praed, W. T.

Dunbar, G.

Price, Sir R.

Dundas, hon. T.

Pryme, G.

Egerton, W. T.

Pusey, P.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Rushbrooke, R.

Ferguson, R.

Russell, Lord J.

Filmer, Sir E.

Sanford, E. A.

Fleetwood, Sir P.

Seymour, Lord

Freshfield, J. W.

Sibthorp, Col.

Gladstone, W. E.

Somerset, Lord G.

Gordon, Captain

Stanley, E. J.

Gore, O. W.

Stanley, Lord

Goulburn, H.

Stuart, Lord J.

Graham, Sir J.

Sturt, H. C.

Grant, F. W.

Sugden, Sir E.

Grey, Sir G.

Thomson, C. P.

Grimsditch, T.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Hale, R. B.

Vivian, Sir R. H.

Hardinge, Sir H.

Waddington, H.

Hawkes, T.

Walsh, Sir J.

Hayter, W. G.

White, A.

Heathcoate, G. J.

Wilmot, Sir J.

Herries, J. C.

Wood, T.

Hodges, T. L.

Worsley, Lord

Hodgson, R.

Wyndham, W.

Hogg, J. W.

Hope, hon. C.

TELLERS.

Hoskins, K.

Burrell, Sir C.

Houldsworth, T.

Steuart, R.

GLASS DUTIES.
The Chancellor of Exchequermoved the third reading of the Glass Duties Bill.
Sir C. B. Verewished to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman with respect to an invention of a gentleman of
286
the name of Rutledge, of an instrument for ascertaining the quality and quantity of spirits distilled during the process of distillation. Such an invention would be a benefit to the distillers and also to the country. A report had been made by Dr. Birkbeck, which was favourable to the invention, and, he understood, that Professors Lubbock and Brande also spoke favourably of it. He wished to know whether any step had been taken by Government to test the invention?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was true that, for some time, the attention of the Government had been called to the invention of Mr. Rutledge, and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was satisfied, that if the experiment proved successful the result would be most important to the trade of this country and to the revenue. When he recollected the amount of public revenue that was derived from spirits, he felt it was his duty to approach such a subject with the greatest caution. He had availed himself of the services of some eminent men of science to consider this subject. Dr. Birkbeck entered into the fullest details, and he was, at the present time, of opinion, that the instrument would answer all the purposes for which it was intended. Two other eminent men, Professors Lubbock and Brande, had also expressed a favourable opinion, but they had not given the subject quite so much of their attention as Dr. Birkbeck. Three experiments had been tried in connexion with the Board of Excise, but no experiment testing the amount used as compared with the total amount of spirits produced had as yet been brought to a final result. He could only add, that he was taking the best means of bringing the matter to a final result, and if it succeeded no man would be more gratified than himself at such success.
The bill read a third time.
Mr. Hawkesthen moved the insertion of the following clause: "And be it further enacted, that no maker or makers of glass shall make of common bottle metal any bottle or bottles smaller, or of less size or content, than what is commonly deemed or reputed an half-pint bottle; and if any maker or makers of glass shall make of common bottle metal, any bottle or bottles smaller, or of less size or content than aforesaid, the maker or makers of glass so offending shall, for every such

287
offence, forfeit and lose the sum of fifty pounds." The object of the clause was to protect the makers of flint-glass, who, paying a much higher duty than the green-glass manufacturers, were in the habit of converting their refuse materials into small medical bottles, in which they would be unequally competed with by the green-glass manufacturers, unless this provision was inserted.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that, upon a review of the whole subject, and after consulting the parties interested in it out of door, who were, of course, much divided upon it, he was inclined to think, that a case had not been made out for the insertion of this restriction, and he should maintain the bill as it stood.
The House divided: Ayes 28; Noes 66; Majority 38.

List of the AYES.

Egerton, W. T.

Richards, R.

Estcourt, T.

Rolleston, R.

Filmer, Sir E.

Rushbrooke, Col.

Freshfield, J. W.

Scarlett, J. Y.

Grimsditch, T.

Sheppard, T.

Hope, hon. C.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Hope, G. W.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Houldsworth, T.

Vivian, J. E.

Hughes, W.B.

Waddington, H.

Lowther, J. H.

White, A.

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Wood, T.

Parker, R. T.

Wyndham, W.

Perceval, hon. G. J.

Philips, M.

TELLERS.

Praed, W. M.

Blackburne, J. J.

Reid, Sir J. R.

Hawkes, T.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Hawes, B.

Alston, R.

Heathcote, G. J.

Anson, hon. Colonel

Hector, C. J.

Archbold, R.

Hobhouse, Sir J.

Bannerman, A.

Hodges, T. L.

Barnard, E. G.

Hoskins, K.

Bernal, R.

Howick, Viscount

Blake, W. J.

Hume, J.

Briscoe, J. I.

Ingham, R.

Brotherton, J.

Irving, J.

Brownrigg, S.

James, W.

Byng, G.

James, Sir W. C.

Campbell, Sir J.

Lefevre, C. S.

Collins, W.

Lushington, Dr.

Conyngham, Lord A.

Lushington, C.

Craig, W. G.

Martin, J.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Parker, J.

Dundas, F.

Pechell, Captain

Dundas, hon. T.

Price, Sir R.

Ebrington, Viscount

Rice, rt. hon. T. S.

Edwards, Sir J.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Salwey, Col.

Finch, F.

Smith, J. A.

Hastie, A.

Somerville, Sir W.

288

Stansfield, W. R.

Ward, H. G.

Surrey, Earl of

Wilbraham, G.

Tancred, H. W.

Williams, W.

Thornely, T.

Wood, C.

Turner, E.

Wood, G. W.

Vigors, N. A.

Worsley, Lord

Villiers, C. P.

Yates, J. A.

Vivian, J. H.

Wall, C. B.

TELLERS

Wallace, R.

Seymour, Lord

Warburton, H.

Steuart, R.

Clause rejected, and bill passed.

REGISTRATION OF ELECTORS.
On the motion of the Attorney-general, the House went into Committee for the further consideration of the report of the Registration of Electors Bill.
On Clause 49, giving to the revising barristers power to give costs,
Mr. Aglionbymoved an amendment to the effect that costs should be given in those cases only in which the persons objected to had previously been on the registry of voters.
Mr. Praedwas inclined to support the amendment, but thought it would be advisable to fine the frivolous objector 10 s., and not hear any of his other objections till the fine was paid. If no better course were suggested he would move a clause to that effect.
The Attorney Generalexpressed his doubts of the expediency of adopting either of the suggestions that had been made, but thought the subject well worthy of consideration.
The Committee divided on the amendment. Ayes 39; Noes 86; Majority 47.

List of the AYES.

Alsager, Capt.

Nicholl, J.

Bridgeman, H.

Parker, R. T.

Brodie, W. B.

Pechell, Capt.

Collins, W

Perccval, Col.

Ebrington, Viseount

Praed, W. M.

Edwards, Sir J.

Salwey, Colonel

Egerton, W. T.

Sandon, Viscount

Evans, G.

Somerville, Sir W.

Gillon, W. D.

Stansfield, W. R.

Grimsditch, T.

Stewart, J.

Hall, Sir B.

Style, Sir C.

Hector, C. J.

Tancred, H. W.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Vigors, N. A.

Hodges, T. L.

Wallace, R.

Hurt, F.

Williams, W.

Hutt, W.

Wood, T.

Kinnaird, A. F.

Worsley, Lord

Lushington, C.

Yates, J. A.

Martin, J.

TELLERS

Morris, D.

Aglionby, H. A.

Muskett, G. A.

Warburton, H.

289

List of the NOES.

Adam, Admiral

Mackinnon, W. A.

Archbold, R.

Mildway, P. St. J.

Baines, E.

Miles, P. W. S.

Blandford, Marquess

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Bowes, J.

Palmerston, Viscount

Briscoe, J. I.

Parnell, Sir H.

Broadley, H.

Pendarves, E. W.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Perceval, hon. G. J.

Campbell, Sir J.

Philips, M.

Curry, W.

Phillpotts, J.

Darby, G.

Polhill, F.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Rice, rt. hon. T. S.

Filmer, Sir E.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Graham, Sir J.

Rushbrooke, Col.

Grant, F. W.

Russell, Lord J.

Grey, Sir C.

Sheppard, T.

Hardinge, Sir H.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Hastie, A.

Smith, R. V.

Hobhouse, Sir J.

Sugden, Sir E.

Hodgson, R.

Surrey, Earl

Hogg, J. W.

Troubridge, Sir E.

Hoskins, K.

Turner, E.

Howard, P. H.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Hurst, R. H.

Waddington, H. S.

James, W.

Wilbraham, G.

Knight, H. G.

Wood, G.

Labouchere, H.

Wood, G. W.

Langdale, hon. C.

TELLERS.

Lefevre, C. S.

Parker, J.

Loch, J.

Pryme, G.

Clause agreed to.
Dr. Nichollproposed the insertion of clauses providing that the revising barristers shall be enabled to reserve cases for the opinion of the superior courts of common law, which cases shall be heard in the vacation after the Michaelmas term next ensuing; that, in the mean time, the revising barrister shall give his own opinion on the case, and shall send that opinion to one of the superior courts at Westminster, which shall hear counsel on the case, and that the decision of such court shall be final.
The Attorney Generalobjected to the clauses. He felt as strongly as any one the necessity of some court of appeal from the decision of the revising barristers, for the purpose of attaining uniformity, but it was clear, that this would not be the proper court of appeal. He had the most sincere reverence for the judges of our courts at Westminster, but he should be most reluctant to refer to them questions of a purely political nature. It was essential that the administration of justice in Westminster-hall should remain without suspicion; but it would be impossible to secure even the most upright of judges from some suspicion in the minds of one party or another if he were to be called
290
upon to decide questions of a political nature. Besides, the courts at Westminster were already so overwhelmed with their own business that it was out of the question to impose any extraneous business on them. He hoped it would be part of the object of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth to provide a proper and effective court of appeal. Such an object had formed part of the plan of the hon. Member for Liskeard. He had waited with great anxiety to hear what the right hon. Baronet had to propose on this point, but he could not consent for a moment to the present proposition.
Sir E. Sugdenwas inclined to support the clauses. The questions which would come before the judges would not be political questions, but essentially questions of property, which would very fitly come before the superior courts of law. He did not see, that the additional weight of business would materially inconvenience the judges, nor did he see, that their decisions would for a moment be regarded with suspicion. He was not himself aware of any pressure of business on the courts at Westminster which could be regarded as other than a merely temporary pressure. If the judges were liable to be stigmatised for an incidental decision which might happen to be unpopular, how hard would be the case of those who should be appointed for the sole purpose of deciding appeals in those cases. The opinions of the latter would be in no degree respected, and they would be liable to be regarded as mere political partisans. If the hon. Gentleman pressed the clauses to a division, he should vote with him, but he should suggest to him to postpone them to a future state of the bill, when they might be more advantageously discussed.
Mr. Warburtonhad no respect for the decisions of judges on political questions, particularly when he recollected how the rights and properties of corporations had been gradually undermined by decisions of the judges of the land. He thought the rights of the people and the privileges of the House would be greatly endangered by making the judges a court of appeal on questions of this kind.
Mr. Praedobserved, that a great number of the questions at present decided by the courts of laws at Westminster were of a political character, yet the decisions of the judges in such cases were not regarded with suspicion. A great many new questions of a political character had been

291
introduced into our courts of law by the Attorney General's own Municipal Reform Act. If the question went to a division he should vote with his hon. and learned Friend.
Dr. Nichollwithdrew his clauses.
The House resumed, the Report to be received.

POST-OFFICE BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved the second reading of the Post-office Bill.
Colonel Sibthorpexpressed his surprise that such a bill as this should have emanated from a ministry professing economy. The bill proposed to create three commissioners, one with a salary of 2,000 l. per annum and a seat in this House, and the other two commissioners with salaries of 1,200 l. each, making a charge upon the country which he could not but designate as a legal fraud of 4,400 l. per annum. The House, at this late period of the Session, was completely taken by surprise with this hasty attempt at increase of patronage. If the noble Earl at the head of the Post-office department had misconducted himself, let the Government dismiss him, but at all events he protested against the proposition for this increased expense. He protested against the bill altogether, and would take the sense of the House against it at every stage.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwould not weary the House by replying to the general argument of the hon. and gallant Officer, because they were those which he used on every occasion he spoke, always taking care to vituperate her Majesty's Ministers. He would come at once to the bill itself. It would, no doubt, be in the recollection of the House, that this bill was the result of the reports of no less than three separate commissions of inquiry. The principle it proposed to adopt was recommended by the commission of which Lord Wallace was at the head. The commission on which the noble Lord the Member for Westmorland (Lord Lowther) presided, had also recommended the adoption of the principle contained in this very measure. Now, he presumed he might say, that the noble Lord (Lord Lowther), in consequence of the political opinions he entertained, was a person who would not be very desirous or anxious to place patronage unnecessarily in the hands of the present Government. His best supporter, on the present occasion, was the noble
292
Lord, for the bill was as much the noble Lord's as his. He did not say this either in disparagement of the bill or of the noble Lord, but in order to do the noble Lord a common act of justice for the great pains, attention, and consideration which he had bestowed upon this subject; and yet the hon. and gallant Officer had said, with respect to a bill so brought forward and so recommended, that it was a measure introduced by surprise, and for the purpose of effecting some fraud, by passing it through the House at this period of the Session. The House would also recollect that this was only the renewing of a bill which had been rejected by the House of Lords in the last Session. But he was not to be deterred by that circumstance from bringing it forward again, and he would do his utmost to pass it through that House, whether it was rejected in another place or not, and it was not his fault that the bill had been so long before the House. With regard to the objection of the hon. and gallant Officer to the chief commissioner of the post office being a Member of that House, he begged to say that the Postmaster-general, under the present system, was a Member of Parliament, not of that House certainly, but of the House of Peers. He, however, thought, that, looking to the circumstance that the post-office was a revenue department, that it would be far better that the head of the board to preside over that office should be a Member of that House, rather than of the House of Lords, and should be a person cognisant of the principles and management of a revenue department, which was particularly within the province of that House, and conversant with the exigencies of the present time, when by the extension of railroads, alterations and changes were required to be effected, not only weekly, but daily—nay almost every hour.
The House divided. Ayes 48; Noes 12. Majority 36.

List of the AYES.

Adam, Admiral

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Aglionby, H. A.

Ferguson, Sir R.

Archbold, R.

Filmer, Sir E.

Baines, E.

Gillon, W. D.

Bernal, R.

Hall, Sir B.

Blake, M. J.

Hayter, W. G.

Brotherton, M. J.

Hobhouse, Sir J. C.

Bruges, W. H.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Campbell, Sir J.

Hodges, T. L.

Chalmers, P.

Hodgson, R.

Curry, W.

Hogg, J. W.

293

Howard, P. H.

Rice, T. S.

Hume, J.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Hurt, F.

Salwey, Col.

James, W.

Stewart, J.

Knight, H. B.

Thomson, C. P.

Langdale, hon. C.

Thornely, T.

Lynch, A. H.

Troubridge, Sir E.

Melgund, Viscount

Vigors, N. A.

Milnes, R. M.

Wallace, R.

Morpeth, Viscount

Warburton, H.

Murray, rt. hon. J.

Worsley, Lord

Palmerston, Viscount

Parker, J.

TELLERS.

Philips, M.

O'Ferrall, M.

Ramsbottom, J.

Stewart, R.

List of the NOES.

Bagge, William

Perceval, hon. G. J.

Broadley, Henry

Rushbrooke, Col.

Darby, G.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Dick, Q.

Wood, T.

Farnham, E. B.

Grimsditch, T.

TELLERS.

Hope, hon. C.

Sibthorp, Col.

Perceval, Col.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Bill read a second time.

SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the motion that the report be received,
Mr. Gillonmoved, that the report be received that day three months.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that this bill related merely to forty-one Highland schools and he had no objection to a clause to make those forty-one schools subject to any general measure that might be subsequently adopted.
Mr. Humethought it would be better not to press the measure during the present Session.
Mr. Gillonsaid, he would withdraw all opposition if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would undertake that the money should be under the control of the treasury, instead of being placed at the disposal of the Established Church of Scotland.
The House divided on the original motion. Ayes 37; Noes 12.—Majority 25.

List of the AYES.

Adam, Admiral

Hobhouse, Sir J.

Baines, E.

Hodges, T. L.

Broadley, H.

Hodgson, R.

Brotherton, J.

Hope, hon. C.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Hurt, F.

Curry, W.

James, W.

Darby, G.

Knight, H.

Dick, Q.

Melgund, Visct.

Elliott, hon. J. E.

Milnes, R. M.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Morpeth, Visct.

Filmer, Sir E.

Murray, hon. J. A.

Grimsditch, T.

O'Ferrall R. M.

Hall, Sir B.

Parker, J.

294

Perceval, Col.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Philips, M.

Wallace, R.

Rice, T. S.

Wood, T.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Worsley, Lord

Rushbrooke, R.

TELLERS.

Thomson, C. P.

Attorney-General

Troubridge, E. T.

Steuart, R.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Salwey, Col.

Archbold, R.

Thornely, T.

Blake, M. J.

Vigors, N. A.

Chalmers, P.

Wood, G. W.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Howard, P. H.

TELLERS.

Hume, J.

Gillon, W. D.

Lynch, A. H.

Langdale, G.

Report brought up.