Commons Sitting of 30 May 1837

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Mr. POULTER, from Dorsetshire, against Coroners Expenses Bill.—By Sir J. TYRRELL and other hon. MEMBERS, from Saffron Walden and other places, against parts of New Poor-law Bill. By Lord SANDON, from Liverpool, and Mr. PLUMPTREE, from Shcerness, for the better Observance of the Sabbath. —By Mr. VESEY, from various places, against the Irish National System of Education; and against any further grants to Maynooth College.—By several hon. MEMBERS, from various places, expressive of confidence in his Majesty's Ministers.—By Sir GEORGE CLERK, from the general Assembly of the Church of Scotland, against registration of Births and Marriages (Scotland) Bill; and against Clandestine Marriages (Scotland) Bill.—By Sir A. L. HAY, from Portsay, for Burghs of Barony Bill.—By Lord ASHLEY, from various places, against the Ministerial plan for the abolition of Church-rates.

BRIGHTON RAILWAYS.
Captain Alsagersaid, that the Committee to whom the several Railway Bills between London and Brighton had been referred, had, in obedience to the orders of the House, made a special Report upon the engineering merits of those lines, in favour of the direct line (Sir J. Ronnie's). He moved, that the Report be adopted; that this Bill be sent back to the Committee; that the Committee be directed to have the landholders heard, and the clauses settled; and that the Committee do meet on Thursday next.
Lord George Lennoxobserved, that on the 9th of this month, an instruction was given by the House to the London and Brighton Railway Committee to this effect: —that the Committee was to examine the engineering merits of the competing lines, to enable the House to determine which to send back to the Committee. Now, he maintained that the Committee had not sent to the House the information which was required by the instruction. He objected to the constitution of the Committee which had decided in favour of Sir John Rennie's line. The investigation had lasted twenty-seven days, and the average attendance of Members each day was twenty, but on the twenty-eighth day they were honoured with the attendance of forty-five Members, six of whom voted for Sir John Rennie's line, having been there only one day, and without having heard one word of the engineering evidence. He should move, as an amendment upon the motion of the hon. Member for East Surrey, that an humble address be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to furnish some military engineer to survey the several lines of Brighton Railway
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now under the consideration of the House, together with the several plans and sections thereof, and to report thereon.
Mr. Warburtonwished to direct the attention of the House to some facts which had come out in evidence relative to the subscription-list for Rennie's line. It certainly appeared, that the framing of the subscription-list of last Session was conducted in the most unexceptionable manner; but that line having been rejected, the persons into whose hands the shares had come by sale and purchase, were the persons whose names appeared on the list for the present Bill.
Mr. Curteisconsidered, that the proposition of the noble Lord would be most unfair to the majority of the Committee, and it would be setting a monstrous and most unjust precedent.
Mr. W. Crawfordasserted, that the feeling against Rennie's line was all but universal, from Wandsworth-common to Horsham, and that the consent of every individual land-owner on the line who was in favour of it, had been purchased at a most enormous cost.
Mr. P. Thomsonexpressed his intention of supporting, after a little amendment which he would suggest, the proposition of the noble Lord. He thought, that the amendment should be altered so as to direct the Committee to apply for a military engineer, who should give in a report on the three different lines; and that then the Committee should be ordered to report on the engineering evidence altogether.
Mr. Humecomplained of the conduct of Government in throwing its weight into the scale of one of these parties. The Government had formerly refused to interfere between the parties, and he did not know what influence had been used to cause the right hon. Gentleman to interfere now.
Mr. P. Thomsonsaid, that it was in consequence of his having read the evidence taken by the Committee—evidence which he suspected that the hon. Member for Middlesex had not yet read—that he had ventured to offer his opinion to the House and to make the suggestion which he had submitted to its consideration.
Mr. Wakleyagreed with his hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex, that the Government ought not to interfere in private contests of this kind. On other private Bills, the Members of Government trotted off to the library, when a division was ex-

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pected, as fast as their legs could carry them; on the present occasion, for reasons best known to themselves, they were stationary in their places, and their recommendation was to supersede every thing else.
The House divided on the original motion:—Ayes 157; Noes 164: Majority 7.

PRIVILEGE.—THE GLASGOW WRIT.
Sir J. Graham Sir J. Graham moved the Order of the Day for the attendance at the Bar of the Messenger from the Crown-office, and the Deputy Postmaster-General. The first of the witnesses was called in. His name was William Sparrow. He was deputy-messenger to the Great Seal, and went with a writ from the Crown-office on Wednesday to the Lord Chancellor's house. He afterwards took it to the Post-office as soon as it was sealed. He arrived at the Post-office about twenty minutes past eight o'clock. The mails were gone. He gave the writ to the clerk in waiting.
John Good received a writ on the 17th of May. He also received a note from Mr. Stanley addressed to Colonel Maberly. It said that a writ would be sent, and that if sealed in time before the departure of the Glasgow mail, it should be sent by that conveyance; but that if the mail should be gone before the writ arrived, it should be forwarded by express, if practicable. The Glasgow mail was gone, and he made it up in a parcel. It was eventually directed to the sheriff of Lanarkshire. It was forwarded by a horse express. This was the first time that such an occurrence came within his knowledge. The witness withdrew.
Lord J. Russell: The right hon. Gentleman (Sir James Graham) will have the opportunity of making any comparison which he may desire to institute when the letter is produced. He seems now, however, to be insinuating. From the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman has expressed himself, I make no doubt, that after the charge which he has already brought against my hon. Friend of violating the Act of Parliament in forwarding the writ, he will now bring against him another and a felonious charge—the charge of having forged this letter; although, when the first mention was made of it, he avowed himself the writer of it, and declared his intention of producing it.
Sir J. Graham: I know not, Sir, that there has been anything in my demeanour that justifies the insinuation which the noble Lord thinks proper to make; or anything in the mode in which I have brought forward and sustained this charge which justifies the peculiar temper which hon. Gentlemen had thought proper to exhibit at the opposite side. But, Sir, neither by that tone, nor by that temper, nor by the manner which the noble Lord has thought fit to assume, shall I be deterred from the exercise of what I conceive to be a public duty. I certainly, Sir, mean nothing disrespectful towards the hon. Gentleman opposite, the Secretary to the Treasury; but it must be remembered, that we are here proceeding judicially. The witness, who told you that he was aware that an Act of Parliament was about to be violated, told you that he performed that act under the direction, as he conceived, of a Member of his Majesty's Government, holding the responsible official situation of Secretary to the Treasury; that he received a letter, which was conveyed to him by an unknown hand, by a person who was, in fact, an utter stranger to him. He was told, he was at liberty to open the letter; he opened it, and it conveyed to him the direction that a particular letter should be forwarded by express. The first impression of the witness, as recorded by him in his evidence before the House, was, that this was a violation of the law; and he informed the person who delivered the letter, that such was his impression. He, nevertheless, acted upon the direction which that letter contained. It appears, that he kept the letter until the subsequent morning; and to whom did he then deliver it? If he said that he had given it to the hon. Gentleman opposite, I would not seek to trace this transaction further. But he has said distinctly, that he gave the letter, not to the hon. Secretary to the Treasury, but to Colonel Maberly. Surely, there can be no offence legitimately taken, and most assuredly I mean none, because I express a desire to have the investigation carried to this point. If the hon. Gentleman, the Secretary to the Treasury, produces a letter which he says he wrote, it is clearly important to ascertain whether the letter which has been given to this person by a total stranger, is or is not the same document.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerob-

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served, that if the letter in question had not been alluded to and tendered for inspection by his hon. Friend, the Secretary to the Treasury, if it were a letter which had been referred to by one of the witnesses, as throwing light upon the subject as to which he was examined, there might have been some colour or pretext for recommending the course which the right hon. Gentleman opposite had suggested. But the House would bear in mind, that in reference to this letter, his hon. Friend himself had announced his intention of producing it, in order to prevent any inconvenience which might possibly arise from the adoption of a course which would involve a most singular departure from those principles of ordinary common sense which every hon. Member, however unprovided with legal knowledge, was prepared to acknowledge. The right hon. Gentleman had proposed to examine one of the witnesses who had been summoned to the House, as to the import of a document which the hon. Secretary to the Treasury, the writer of the letter, could himself much better explain. When the right hon. Gentleman alluded to that document, his hon. Friend, the Secretary to the Treasury, had at once got up and declared his readiness to produce it. The right hon. Baronet was undoubtedly skilled in making fine distinctions. But surely, there was no hon. Gentleman present to whose mind it was not obvious that the intention of his hon. Friend was to authenticate the letter so produced by his own declaration. In accordance with the rules of Parliament, he believed that no stronger evidence could be given at the bar of that House—no evidence possessing greater force or validity in their deliberations, than a statement made by a Member of Parliament in his place in that House, and the production of a document which he declared, upon his honour as a Member of Parliament, to be genuine. The right hon. Gentleman, upon the one hand, expressed himself desirous not to depart from the ordinary courtesy of Parliament; and, upon the other, he suggested a possibility that a false messenger might have delivered a false letter; and he said, that he was desirous to know that it was the real bond fide letter upon which the officers at the Post-office acted. Did the right hon. Gentleman doubt that it was the real letter? Would he get up in his place and
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avow that belief?—getting rid at once of these wiredrawn distinctions? If he entertained such a doubt, let him state it; if not, and such was his belief, let him not press a suggestion which was liable to lead to an inference that was derogatory to the privileges of Parliament, and involve, in no small degree of doubt and suspicion, the course which they were to pursue.
Mr. Roebucksaid, that the right hon. Baronet had exhibited no small degree of inconsistency in this matter. On a former night he had commenced his accusation by stating that he had received a letter, upon which he thought it necessary to found a charge, in which one of his Majesty's Ministers would be involved. Upon its having been pointed out to him that this, as being an anonymous letter, was objectionable evidence on which to found such a charge, what was his answer? Why, that as a Member of Parliament, he had a right to state that he had received such information. The Secretary to the Treasury had subsequently got up, and stated his intention of producing the letter in question, upon which the right hon. Gentleman threw a doubt upon the very class of testimony to which he himself had appealed the night before as irrefragable. And the right hon. Gentleman had, in his own case, attached to the declaration of a Member of Parliament the value of testimony, while he refused to make any such acknowledgment in the case of the hon. Secretary to the Treasury; thus claiming to himself a privilege which he denied to another hon. Member.
Sir J. Grahamhoped he might be excused for briefly asking the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down whether he was to understand that, because he had accused his Majesty's Government of violating the Act of Parliament, the issue was now to be changed, and he himself was to be put upon his trial? It was impossible that the hon. Member for Bath should not be aware of the complete distinction which existed between the two cases. The assertion of a Member in his place in Parliament, however vague and uncertain it might be, touching any question affecting the freedom of election or the conduct of Government, afforded ample ground to justify the House in instituting inquiry. But when the inquiry was in the act of being proceeded with when its subject-matter was under consideration by whose direction was a certain

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illegal act performed? and when the reply of the witness was, that he did it under a written authority from the Secretary of the Treasury, it was the undoubted duty of that House to trace clearly and distinctly the identity of that letter. If it was the opinion of the noble Lord and of the hon. Gentleman opposite that this inquiry could proceed satisfactorily without this subject forming a part of it, let them say so: but until the House should pronounce this identification unnecessary, he would certainly contend for what he judged to be requisite to the perfection of the inquiry. Had the letter been produced, and had the Secretary to the Treasury said that there could be no mistake as to its identity, his assertion would have been quite satisfactory; but, so far was this from having been the case, that the witness had admitted that he had received the letter from a person who was totally unknown to him before; that he had given it, not to the hon. Gentleman opposite, but to Colonel Maberly; and from that period to the present all trace of its identity was lost.
Mr. E. J. Stanleyexpressed his surprise that, having stated his willingness to produce a copy of the letter which he had sent to Colonel Maberly, an identification of that copy with the original letter, through the means of witnesses at the bar, should have been insisted on, and thought it unparalleled in that House, when an hon. Member stated his intention to produce a copy of a document to institute any inquiry as to its authenticity. He was in the recollection of the House whether, upon the former, as well as on the present night, he had not manifested an eager desire to meet the right hon. Gentleman fully and fairly. If, upon the former occasion, he did not enter fully upon the subject, the House would agree with him that this was not surprising—taken as he was by surprise, without time for communication with a single person, without time for consideration himself, as to the answer which he should give, and without knowing how other parties might possibly be affected by the inquiry. He asked the House whether he had not a right to complain of the right hon. Baronet's conduct towards him. Immediately before a question was put upon a former evening with reference to this matter, the right hon. Gentleman had come behind him (Mr. Stanley) and said, "I wish you would remain in your place,
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for I want to put a question to you." "Will you state what the question is," was his (Mr. Stanley's) reply. "No, I will not," was the right hon. Gentleman's rejoinder; "will you hear it when I rise." He would ask every hon. Member present whether it was not the common practice, even in ordinary matters, for hon. Members opposite to tell the Gentleman of whom they were about to ask a question, what was its subject, in order that he might be prepared to give an answer. He believed that it was indeed unparalleled, that when a question was to be asked upon a subject affecting the personal character and conduct of a Member of that House, particularly to the extent of a violation of an Act of Parliament, a breach of the privileges of the House, and an unjust interference with the freedom of election, the courtesy should not be extended to the Member thus assailed, of making him acquainted beforehand with the nature of the threatened attack. When charges so grave were about to be preferred, he asked whether there was another hon. Member in that House who would have declined to make this communication? "I would not credit it that any other hon. Member would have been capable of doing so; and I do believe that there is no other hon. Member in this House who would not have been ready to give that information." The right hon. Gentleman had excused himself on a former occasion for declining to give a similar notice beforehand, on the ground that the fact which was stated was so incredible that he could not believe it; but in the present instance, according to his own admission, he could plead no such excuse; for the evidence here, he had contended, was quite convincing. He would leave it to the House to decide as to what was the motive, and what the object, which had stimulated the right hon. Baronet here to adopt the unprecedented course of taking an hon. Member thus by surprise. This was an altogether novel species of courtesy. This was the courtesy which might be expected at the hands of him who now bid high to lead that party which was so vehemently opposed in principle as well as conduct to the party with which the right hon. Baronet had for twenty years acted. This was, in fine, the courtesy which might naturally be expected from him who had ever shown himself ready to lead the forlorn hope against every one of his former hon. and noble Colleagues, as well as

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against every one of his quondam associates, even against their humblest supporters. With regard to the question before the House, he would lay before them a simple statement of what had occurred. The writ had been moved for at the sitting of the House at 4 o'clock, on Wednesday the 17th of May. Under ordinary circumstances, there would have been no difficulty in transmitting the writ, which should have gone by the same night's post. He had communicated to the Crown-office the fact, that the writ would be that night moved for, desiring the proper officer to be in attendance. One of the clerks of the House of Commons was despatched with the writ to the Crown-office; from whence it was brought to the Lord Chancellor's house at Bruton-street; and, upon its being ascertained that the Lord Chancellor was at Wimbledon, a messenger was despatched to the latter place, for the purpose of getting the seal affixed there to the writ. Apprehending that the writ would arrive too late to be transmitted by post, he made a remark upon the subject to a clerk in the Treasury-office, who said that he recollected writs having been sent by express repeatedly, and instanced a case which had occurred in 1829, under a Tory Government, in which the Post-office authorities were directed to forward an election writ by express that night. Believing therefore, that the proceeding was quite correct, and had been done before, he wrote the following letter to Colonel Maberly.
"May 17.
"Dear Maberly,—It is of the greatest consequence that the writ for Glasgow should go by to-night's post, so that if it should not arrive in time for the Glasgow mail, I should wish it, if possible, to be forwarded by express tonight, and directed to the Sheriff of Lanarkshire, at Glasgow.
"The delay has been occasioned by the Chancellor being at Wimbledon; but I believe that the writ will be back in time, or soon after.
"Your's ever, E. J. STANLEY.
"Lieutenant Colonel Maberly &c."
He could produce witnesses (if desired) in corroboration of his statement; and that, at the period of his writing this letter, he had made no secret whatever of the course he was pursuing. Shortly afterwards he had heard some doubts expressed as to its conformity with the Act of Parliament, and he would now confess that, after perusing the Act of Parliament, he thought it
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possible that the wording of the Act might be opposed to the course which he had taken. But he would ask, what was the intention of the Act? He would ask whether it was not to remove delay in the transmission of writs of election? Had the Lord Chancellor been in town, the writ should have gone by that night's post. As it was, the writ returned from Wimbledon, and was despatched half an hour after the departure of the mail, and did not reach Glasgow until four hours after the mail had arrived. As the express did not arrive until evening, the sheriff had left town, and his return to Glasgow, where he could officially avail himself of the document, did not take place until very near the period of arrival of the following day's mail. The interests, therefore, of no party had been injured. If he (Mr. Stanley) had erred, he had erred through ignorance, and through the information of those whom he had naturally imagined to be peculiarly cognizant of matters of this description. For his own part, he thought the words of the Act were of very dubious construction. They directed the writ to be forwarded by the "next mail or post." Now, he believed that any express forwarded from the Post-office was in reality "a post," and that a person stopping the horses would render himself subject to all the penalties of felony. He therefore looked upon this as being one of the modes of conveyance contemplated by the Act. The writ passed through the hands of the proper officers, and was intrusted by persons deputed by the Postmaster-General to the postmaster of Glasgow, to be by him delivered to the sheriff of Lanark. Under these circumstances, he trusted the House would believe that, although he might have exceeded the strict line of duty, he possessed no knowledge at the time that he was doing anything which was unusual in practice; that, on the other hand, no injury had been the consequence of the writ being forwarded by express instead of mail; and that, finally, he (Mr. Stanley) had been actuated in this matter by no intention of violating the spirit of the statute. He believed that he had stated fairly the motives by which he had been guided; and, as he certainly had not been the means of giving an unfair advantage to any party, nor had entertained any such intention, he trusted the House would not consider him in this matter in the light of

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a transgressor. In conclusion, he would observe that he had made some inquiries at the Post-office, which were directed to ascertain whether any election writs had been forwarded by express upon former occasions, and the result of his inquiries was as follows:—
"Extract from Express-book,
March 23,1829.
"On His Majesty's service.
"To Sandwich.
"A packet for the Mayor at 25 minutes to 1 p. m. "(Signed) G. WELCH."
This packet he found to contain an election writ, and though it was despatched before post hour, it at all events clearly proved the desire which had been entertained by the Government of that day to expedite writs of this description.
Sir R. Inglisobserved that the natural sympathy which had been excited in behalf of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down by his hon. Friends around him, had induced him to draw the attention of the House from the real point at issue, which was the authenticity of the letter in question, upon which it was the business of the House judicially to decide.
The Attorney-Generalsaid that the question was, whether the declaration of an hon. Gentleman in his place in that House should not be received as affording in itself a satisfactory evidence?
Sir J. Grahamwished to be informed by the hon. Gentleman opposite, whether it was his intention to put in as evidence a copy of the letter which he had read?
Mr. Stanley: Yes.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, that he did not mean to enter into any vindication either of his political or of his personal character; and that he was by no means disposed to be drawn into any such discussion by the taunts of hon. Gentlemen at the opposite side. That conduct was before the public; and between him and the hon. Secretary to the Treasury the public must adjudicate. It was for the public to decide whether in the principles which had guided, or the incidents which had characterized his public life, he had been influenced by private considerations of a low, mean, and despicable character; or whether the motives by hich he had been actuated were as pure and as fitted to win the public approval as they had already entirely secured the approbation of his own heart and conscience. With regard to the particular matter which was now
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under consideration, he had disclaimed, repeatedly disclaimed, and he again disclaimed, the imputation of having entertained any unwillingness to impute to the declaration of the hon. Gentleman in his place in Parliament its full value. Had the hon. Member made upon the former occasion the statement he had just now made to the House, he should not have been disposed to carry the matter further. He contended, however, that the conduct of the hon. Gentleman in this instance was a clear violation of the Act of Parliament. The case which the hon. Gentleman had referred to was not altogether a parallel one. The duty of the Executive Government should be to take care that the writ should not be arrested; at the same time to recollect, that as much injustice might be done by too much expedition as too much delay. The object of the Legislature had been, that the writ should be taken out of the hands of parties altogether, and intrusted to the executive, whose discretion was confined within the narrowest limits. The Postmaster-general, or his deputy, were alone the persons who were to be intrusted with the despatching of the writ to be forwarded by the first mail or post, which plainly signified that if the writ arrived after the mail had set out it should be kept until the following day, and instead of being intrusted to the hands of private individuals—to perhaps twenty or thirty post boys, as should be the case between this and Glasgow—that it should be detained for the mail-bag, so that its safe custody might be ensured, and all chance of surprise avoided. Supposing a writ to have been obtained a moment before the rising of the House—all necessary regulations to have been made at the Home-office—the great seal to have been procured, and the express started at midnight, he could readily conceive that in such a case a surprise might be so complete as to prevent any contest whatever. In bringing this case before the House, he felt that he was discharging his duty; but after the explanation given by the hon. Gentleman opposite, he would not pursue it further. With regard to the taunts which had been thrown out against his public and private character, he should only say that they would not deter him from following that course which his own sense of honour, justice, and propriety suggested.
The order for the appearance of the

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witnesses was, on the motion of Sir James Graham, discharged, and the subject was dropped.

PUBLICATION OF PRIVILEGED PAPERS.
Viscount Howickrose to propose that the motion of which he had given notice should stand next on the orders, as it related to a question of privilege, and he thought he would be justified in proceeding with it.
Sir W. Molesworthsaid, he did not consider the question to be one of privilege, and refused to give way to the noble Lord.
Lord John Russellobserved, that as persons were every moment liable to be proceeded against by action founded on the publication of the papers of that House, he thought it necessary that they should not lose any time in coming to some definitive resolution on the subject.
The Speakersaid, that this was a case which affected one of the most important privileges of that House. If the question were simply one for discussion, and not coming before them in the shape it did, it might be difficult to say that it was entitled to the precedence of the other motions; but the circumstance stated by the noble Lord altered its position, and showed that it was expected that the question would be raised again, which rendered it most important that the House should come to an immediate decision upon it, in order that parties who might have an action brought against them should know, according to the opinion of the House, what course they ought to pursue.
Viscount Howickproceeded: His object was, to move certain resolutions founded on the Report of the Committee on the publication of printed papers, of which Committee he had had the honour to be chairman. To that Committee had been referred the consideration of the proceedings at Nisi Prius in the case of Stockdale v. Hansard and others. Since the presentation of the Report of that Committee a second action had been brought by the same parties in the Court of King's Bench; and it became expedient, therefore, on the part of the House, to take some step preliminary to that proceeding, in order that all doubt on the subject might be set at rest. The Committee to which he had alluded reported it as their opinion,
"That the power of publishing such of its
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reports, votes, and proceedings as it shall be necessary or conducive to the public interests, is an essential incident to the constitutional functions of Parliament, more especially of this House, as the representative portion of it.
"That by the law and privilege of Parliament, this House has the sole and exclusive jurisdiction to determine upon the existence and extent of its privileges, and that the institution or prosecution of any action, suit, or other proceeding, for the purpose of bringing them into discussion or decision before any court or tribunal elsewhere than in Parliament, is a high breach of such privilege, and renders all parties concerned therein amenable to its just displeasure, and to the punishment con. sequent thereon.
"That for any court or tribunal to assume to decide upon matters of privilege inconsistent with the determination of either House of Parliament thereon, is contrary to the law of Parliament, and is a breach and contempt of the privileges of Parliament."
These Resolutions he meant to propose the House should affirm. The printing and publishing of their proceedings had continued uninterruptedly from the year 1641, with one single exception, up to the period of the late trial. The publication of their papers had therefore tacitly received the protection of law, and he conceived that no privilege could rest upon a clearer proof or stronger foundation. The exception to which he alluded was in the case of Sir William Williams, Speaker of the House of Commons, who had been fined, and he believed actually obliged to pay, 8,000 l. Since the Revolution, however, to the present time, they had enjoyed the privilege interruptedly of publishing their proceedings. He contended, therefore, that the House had a right to determine finally, and without appeal, what its privileges were. One of the resolutions he had to propose asserted, that the Parliament was the sole judge, and had the sole right of judging, what their privileges were, and that the House of Commons was competent to exercise that right as regarded its own privileges. When, therefore, that House declared what its privileges were, they should not be liable to be set aside or reversed by any other authority or tribunal. It had been stated, that conferring so much power as was proposed by the resolutions adopted by the Committee might lead to serious abuse and inconvenience. He was far from saying that any human institution could be free from abuse—it was clearly impossible to find any authority of which

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there could be a certainty that in no possible instance it could be abused; but, at the same time, he thought that those who entertained those fears ought to remember, that if they refused to the House of Commons the power of determining what were its own privileges, they would not even then escape from the difficulty, because other authorities to which they would give the control would be equally open to usurpation and abuse as the House of Commons itself. If it was held that the courts of law should review, and be competent to reverse the decisions of this House, what security was there that the courts of law might not be equally guilty of error us the House itself? If regard was had to the past history—to the times when the princes of the house of Stuart made a systematic attack upon the institutions of the country, and when the courts of law assumed the power of deciding what was and what was not the power of Parliament, it would be seen that if that power was once established, the most essential of the Privileges of Parliament—privileges necessary for the protection of the House—would speedily have been lost, and with them all security for the liberties of the country. He trusted the House would, by adopting the resolutions he had read, solemnly enforce the principle the Committee had adopted. When persons in or out of the House urged that, by claiming so great a power as might give rise to great abuse and to tyrannical usurpation on the part of the House, his answer was, that every form of Government must have some authority to be trusted in the last resource, and he could not conceive why that authority should not be placed in the supreme Legislature of the country; and he would contend, that by claiming that authority for Parliament, a real protection against its abuse was afforded to the people, not by a formal appeal to a legal tribunal, but by an appeal to public opinion and the general sense of the country. In former times that appeal had succeeded, and had compelled this House to reverse its own decisions. He would only mention one famous case out of many—the case of the dispute which lasted so long between this House and Mr. Wilkes. The House having declared that Mr. Wilkes, though returned by a large majority of the electors of Middlesex, should not sit, and thereby deprived, as it were, the electors of the right to return him, public
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opinion was so strongly pronounced against that decision, that in a very few-years afterwards the House was compelled to retrace its steps, and to expunge from its journals its former resolution. In the same manner he believed that if the House should decide contrary to the exercise of just authority, public opinion would not be slow to force it to retrace its steps. He was convinced that the more the subject was discussed and considered, the stronger would be the conviction both of the House and the country that these privileges ought to be secured in the manner he proposed, as being absolutely necessary to the House for the true discharge of its functions as a separate branch of the Legislature. The present question was not whether Parliamentary papers should be sold by Mr. Hansard, or not, neither was it now to be determined what should be the proper mode of their distribution, but the question was, whether the House should be altogether excluded from the power of communicating, through the means of the press, with those whom it represented. If the House was so excluded, it would be impossible for it to exercise its functions with advantage, and therefore, on the ground of public necessity, he thought it was the duty of the House to claim and maintain all those privileges which it had hitherto enjoyed. He trusted such an expressed and solemn declaration as the resolutions conveyed would be sufficient to prevent any further interference with those privileges; but if those expectations should be disappointed, he thought it would be the duty of the House to take such measures as would be necessary to assert its rights, and repel any attempted invasion or infringement of its privileges, Until the necessity occurred, it was superfluous to advert to what those measures ought to be; he did not doubt but that the House would be able to maintain its authority, and he should now content himself with simply moving the adoption of the resolutions which he had already read as drawn up by the Committee.
Sir R. Inglissaid, that having unfortunately been in a minority in the Select Committee, to whose Report the noble Lord had referred, he owed it to his own consistency to state publicly to the House what he had already said privately in Committee on this subject. In the first place, however, he could not but think that the noble Lord would have consulted

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the convenience of the House much more if he had postponed the discussion on this subject till another day. The state of the House at present, a House of about fifty-six Members, showed either the very little interest which was entertained upon the subject; or the thinness of the attendance was a proof that the noble Lord had taken the House by surprise. He regretted to see a much thinner House during the discussion of so important a question than assembles, ordinarily, to decide upon a Railway Bill, or than assembled in the earlier part of this evening to decide whether Stephenson's or Rennie's was the best line to Brighton. In fact, five-sixths of those then present had since left the House. For himself, he was one of those who had been taken by surprise on this occasion; not holding the motion to be entitled to precedence as a question of Privilege, and having expected a very different subject to be brought on, in its turn as it stood first. Under no circumstances, however, could he refrain from stating to the House his objections to the resolutions in question. Without further urging the opinion that the adoption of the resolutions moved by the noble Lord by so thin a House could have but little moral weight with the country. He would ask, what would be, under any circumstances, the value of those resolutions, even if adopted by the other House? What was the value of a resolution of this House, or of both Houses, upon a question connected with the law of the country? He apprehended that nothing but an Act of Parliament could require or justify any of those learned persons who administer the law to regard a communication of those resolutions as part of the law which they had sworn to administer. The judges were not sworn, nor could they be required, to administer the communicated resolutions of the House. He entreated the attention of the House and of the learned Attorney-General to the two points which he (Sir R. Inglis) raised. First, was there any mode of communicating the resolutions of the House to the judges in their several courts; and, secondly, if there existed any such mode, whether the judges would be called on to take notice of them? Was the House prepared to make the paper placed by the noble Lord opposite in the hand of the Chair nothing more than a mere brutum fulmen? The House was bound to consider the alternative: they had no right to suppose that the judges would at once
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obey their resolutions; and it was the duty, therefore, of the House to consider whether it were prepared to carry those resolutions into effect, and to cite, to summon, and to punish, the judges of the land, in case of their refusal to act upon the resolutions as upon law. Was the House prepared in case of such refusal, to send its messengers to seize any of the judges on the bench and to convey them to Newgate? The House must anticipate some crisis of this kind, or they were not fit to be legislators. In the particular instance the noble and learned judge, whose charge had led to the present proceeding, was a peer of the realm, and would not therefore be subject to such a summary jurisdiction exercised by that House; but there were other judges, not less firm, and whose opinions on this question could not be assumed to differ from the noble and learned Lord, who, under these resolutions, would not be protected by the privilege of the peerage, in holding the same doctrines as the noble and learned individual to whom he referred. Was the noble Lord opposite prepared to send them to Newgate, and if so, was the House prepared—was the country prepared—to support the noble Lord in such a proceeding? He (Sir R. Inglis) believed that such an attempt on the part of the House to interfere with the judicial administration of justice, would be met by a feeling which he could not trust himself to describe, but which he was certain would be the reverse of respect, of confidence, and of acquiescence. Looking at the empty benches on both sides, when the noble Lord rose, he could not help repeating, that the noble Lord gained little support of opinion by passing his resolutions in so thin a House, and in the absence of so many hon. and learned Members whose sentiments on a question of this kind the House would have been most anxious to hear. He would now proceed to state his own general view of the question. In the Committee, he (Sir R. Inglis) had made a broad distinction between the publications which the House printed for its own use and those printed for the use and information of the public. The House had a perfect right to print evidence and reports which might or might not affect the characters of individuals: but the distinction which he had drawn in Committee, and which he now repeated, was, that the House was not at liberty to print such things as reflected in any way upon character except for the use of its own Members only. Was it necessary, or

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could it conduce to public benefit and advantage, that the House should print libels and circulate them throughout the country? Was it not an aggravation of the wrong done to an individual that a libel, needful only to those who were to be the judges upon the case, should be printed and circulated at the public expense to all the fellow subjects of the party injured throughout the land? He (Sir R. Inglis) had raised the same objections last year, when the hon. Member for Middlesex proposed that the publications of the House should be sold under its authority. He had then told the hon. Member that by his arrangement the House would publish more books than any firm in London, and would, in fact, become a great bookselling establishment. And so it was, but it ought not to be enabled to publish libels with impunity. The series of precedents which had been collected with great research and ability by the hon. and learned Member for Newark, had all, with the exception of that of Sir W. Williams, been cases in which parties had libelled the House, and were not cases where, as in the present instance, the House had libelled others, and therefore no analogy could be said to exist. Whatever might have been held, before the case of Burdett v. Abbot, in the Court of King's Bench, nobody could now deny that the House had full power to punish libels against itself. But was it to be permitted to publish libels against others with impunity? The privilege now claimed went, indeed, still further, because it rested on the ground that, whatever the House of Commons might do, no court of law had a right to question it, and none of the fellow subjects of this House could claim protection or compensation against it. To take an obvious instance: was it to be said, that if the House published in one of its Reports a book, the copyright of which was private property, the owner was to go without redress? It had been said, that by continuing the power no excess in its exercise need be feared. He would refer to the treatment of the House towards an individual in the year 1621; he alluded to Floyd's case. It was in substance this; that for words alleged to be spoken in disparagement of the daughter and son-in-law of King James 1st, calling them the good man Palsgrave, and the good wife Palsgrave, and expressing joy at their defeat, this unhappy person was sentenced to be fined 1,000 l., to ride with his face to the horse's tail from Westminster to Newgate,
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to be whipped there, and to be imprisoned, he believed, for life. Had the House of Commons a right to exercise this power, then, for that alleged offence, or for any offence at all? If so, it has the same right now. Is that claimed? If not, then another century may regard the present claim of the present House to publish libels with impunity, as unfavourably as the whole country now regards the conduct of the House of Commons in the case of Floyd. The House must not forget that privilege is one: if the House have a right, constitutionally, to any particular privilege to-day, it has a right to it tomorrow; and again, it has the same right now which it had two centuries ago. He contended, on the contrary, that they had no such right then, and have no such right now. As for the resolutions proposed, he felt convinced that even if adopted they would be impracticable, and with that view he thought the wiser course for the noble Lord opposite would be to proceed to the other orders of the day. If that suggestion were not followed, he should feel it his duty (very reluctantly, for he was anxious not to record any definitions of privilege, or any abstract principle) to move an amendment upon the resolutions proposed. Before he did so, he must say that the country was deeply indebted to the noble and learned Lord, whose charge had brought this question under consideration. He (Sir R. Inglis) had always held that if it were compulsory to live under tyranny, it was better to live under the tyranny of one man than under that of a majority of 658 men. He feared that in an assembly where party feeling, even on private Bills, dictated certain courses, that under these resolutions the "tyrant majority" of the House, as his right hon. Friend (Sir Robert Peel) had on a former occasion termed it, would be fatal to the liberties and best interests of many of their fellow-subjects. Let the House continue to print reports, evidence, and information as it thought fit for the use of its own Members, but not for the whole world; but let it not, under pretence of protecting its own liberties, infringe upon the rights of individuals; and let it not, when it took the law into its own hands, and claimed the right of punishing libels upon itself, claim, also, the irresponsible power of libelling, to any extent that caprice might suggest its own fellow-subjects. The hon. Baronet in conclusion moved as an amendment the following resolutions:—

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"That the privileges claimed by this House from the King at the opening of each Parliament, and granted by the King, and also the other privileges pertaining to this House, which have been recognised by the courts of law within the realm (the same being privileges for maintaining the freedom of debate within the House and the security of the persons of Members thereof from arbitrary violence, and from all arrest, except by courts of law for contempt, or in execution of criminal process), are essentially necessary to the existence and integrity of this House as a body summoned to counsel the King touching the arduous affairs of Church and State; and that any person offending against such privileges is guilty of a violation of the law of Parliament.
"That the right to punish persons guilty of such offences, whether such offences were by interrupting the freedom of debate within the House, either by direct violence, by threat to any Member thereof, by publishing any libel against the proceedings of the House, or were by contempt of the House before it, or were by arrest of any Members thereof other than in execution of lawful process, as aforesaid, hath been repeatedly claimed and enforced by the authority of the House, and that no other authority hath or ought to have any jurisdiction whatever in limiting the exercise of the powers of the House in punishing all persons so offending.
"That although the House hath occasionally addressed the King to direct his Majesty's Attorney-General to prosecute offenders for publishing libels against the proceedings of this House, yet that this House hath likewise an undoubted right to inquire into all libels against its authority or proceedings, and to punish the same accordingly, as breaches of its privileges.
"That no Member of this House hath any claim of privilege in respect to the publication of any matter or thing purporting to be his speech, which by due course of law may be found to be a libel, and that this House hath never interfered, and ought not to interfere, in any legal proceedings instituted thereon.
"That this House doth not claim any right, and that no other body of his Majesty's subjects hath any right, to publish any matter or thing which by law would be adjudged to be a libel if contained in an unauthorised publication, or to do anything which by law would be adjudged to be trespass, or any personal injury.
"That the printing of papers presented to this House, whether the same be accounts, reports, or otherwise, is or ought to be, for the use of Members of this House, and, as such, ought to be publication privileged; but that any sale or dispersal of such papers to any but to Members of this House is, and ought to be, publication not privileged.
"That while this House will resent and resist every attempt on the part of others to
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libel its proceedings, it does not claim, and ought not to claim, any exemption on the part of its Speaker, or any of its officers, from any legal liability to which its proceedings may be subject; and that any publication which would be a libel against an individual, if proceeding from another individual, is a libel if published by this House, any claim of privilege notwithstanding except as aforesaid; and that any act which would be adjudged by law to be a trespass or personal injury, if committed by an individual, is a trespass or personal injury if committed by order of this House, any claim of privilege notwithstanding except as aforesaid."
The Attorney-Generalwould state shortly his reasons for concurring in the resolutions proposed by his noble Friend, and for opposing those moved by the hon. Baronet, the Member for the University of Oxford. That hon. Gentleman had regretted the thinness of the House, and that the feeling of the House had given way for the introduction of the subject. He could not join in that regret, because he believed those two very circumstances indicated that the House was nearly, if not altogether, unanimously in favour of the resolutions of the noble Lord. Looking at the constitution of the Committee, it would be seen that it had been formed without any reference to party, and it would be found also, that no one had opposed the resolutions of that Committee but the hon. Baronet, who stood quite alone. When he first had the subject under his consideration, he was very much inclined to think that there was a distinction between printing for the House and for the public, and that was the line of argument he took before Lord Chief Justice Denman, but upon maturer deliberation, he was convinced that such a distinction was wholly untenable. As the law now stood, an action might be brought against him for allowing a friend who visited his library to read any book or report which happened to have been printed by the House for the purpose of giving information to the Members thereof on the subject on which they were called to legislate, and he was very much afraid that an action might be brought against the Speaker himself. He believed that right hon. Gentleman and his predecessors had been in the habit of allowing persons to read papers which had been printed for the use of the Members of that House, and therefore, even under the view taken by the hon. Baronet, the Member for the University of Oxford, an

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action might be brought against him, and he might be committed to Newgate by the Court of King's Bench for having acted merely in discharge of his duty as Speaker of the House of Commons. It seemed to him impossible that they could discharge their duty as representatives of the people, if their privilege in this respect was restricted as the hon. Baronet wished. He contended, not that they were seeking to uphold the privileges of the House merely, but the privileges of the people of England, because their constituents had a right to know what they were doing. Were they to legislate in the dark? Were they to have the right of making Acts of Parliament without letting the people know what they were? Suppose a Bill happened to be before the House which would seriously affect the interests of his constituents, was he to be precluded from sending copies of it down to them, in order to give them an opportunity of preparing for the defence and protection of their rights? With regard to what the hon. Baronet had said about the publication of reports and papers concerning our colonial policy, he would ask him to look at the slave trade question. While that subject was under discussion, were not reports published and circulated which contained many grave charges against various persons? And though actions might have been founded on the accusations so made, he ventured to say, that the House never would have been able to carry the measure which it then had in hand, but for the dissemination of the information contained in those reports. He was convinced that they could not possibly do their duty without the full privilege of communicating with their constituents on every subject under consideration. In claiming that he claimed no new privilege. From the year 1641 down to 1837, it had been the uniform' and uninterrupted practice of the House to print and circulate public documents. The Courts, therefore, ought not to deal severely with any individual who might have acted under the authority of this established custom. Was not that House entitled to the same privilege which the courts of law enjoyed? It had been determined over and over again that the publication of proceedings in courts of justice was not liable to an action. And why? Because the publication was considered to be beneficial to the people, even though the
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character of some individuals might suffer by it. The laws of the land were not to be administered with closed doors. In the case of "The King and Wright," Lord Kenyon decided gravely, that the privilege went much further than the Committee had contended for in the present case. Lord Kenyon said, that what the House had ordered to be published could not be liable to an action as a libel. The resolutions proposed by the hon. Baronet, as amendments, were mere truisms; and, considering that the House ought to express a decided opinion on this subject, he should call upon it to support the resolutions of the noble Lord. Another action was pending against the same party whose case had originated this discussion, and it was absolutely necessary that the House should either say that their privileges must be maintained, or at once waive them altogether. Believing that those privileges formed part of the law of the land, he called on the House to maintain them. He hoped the vote they would come to would have weight with the country, and put an end to the paltry and pettifogging proceedings which had been brought under the notice of the House.
Mr. Pembertonhoped the House would pause before it adopted the resolutions of the noble Lord. The question which they had to decide was, whether an individual whose character had been slandered and ruined should be dispossessed of his just right to vindicate himself before a jury of his country. He did not see why that right should not be secured to every person without interfering with the privileges of that House. He thought the doctrine laid down by Lord Chief Justice Denman was correct, but he could not help saying the resolutions of the noble Lord seemed to go immeasurably further than the subject required. There was nothing inconsistent in maintaining the privileges of the House and protecting private character. Even the Reform Bill gave the right of action against a revising barrister if he exercised his power improperly. In the case of" Burdett .v Abbott," the decision of the judges and of the House of Lords was against that of the House of Commons. He could not help also entertaining the opinion that the policy of adopting the present resolution would be most dangerous; because the inevitable consequence must be to make these questions

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matters of daily controversy. He must humbly contend that there was a question raised by this resolution which never could be upheld; because it made Parliament paramount to the law, and the result would be, that men would not be able to seek redress for injury done to them under its authority. Did the House believe, that in deference to this resolution, the King's judges would yield obedience to it? On the contrary, he believed they would do no such thing. The judges of the land would act in the same spirit as Lord Chief Justice Holt did, and persist in pursuing the same course which he did. In such a case, would the House be prepared to correct the Chief Justice? Such a resolution as the present could only be passed with the people to back it; but the proposition was one which they never would consent to. He did not call upon the House to abandon its privileges; but he did call upon it not to put them forward in a stronger manner than had ever been hitherto clone. What he wished to see was, an end put to these disputes; and he would humbly submit to the House whether it would not be better, without asserting doctrines that would be perilous to the liberties of the people and their privileges, to take a course that shunned either of those results? It was admitted that it was desirable that persons who had been slandered in their reports should have an opportunity of vindicating their characters and of obtaining redress; what he would suggest was, that there should be a declaratory law on the one hand, and an active law on the other—that while parties should not be allowed to file criminal informations, they should be entitled to bring civil actions in defence of their reputations and characters.
Mr. Sergeant Wildethought the question which they had to decide was whether they should entirely discontinue publishing their reports and minutes of evidence; for if those reports only were published which exposed no abuse and discovered no wrong, the public would gain but a small portion of benefit from the inquiries of Parliament. His hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Pemberton) had altogether shrunk from the real investigation. There was not, looking to the cases which had been quoted in the report, the slightest ground of legal doubt of the privilege claimed and the propriety of the resolutions which had been moved. He would put the question
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in this way—was the public entitled or not to the means of becoming acquainted with the results of Parliamentary inquiries, and the proceedings which took place in that House? If not, why had they opened their galleries to the public? The House had practically yielded to the call for publicity, reserving the right, no doubt of excluding strangers, but only when the public interest seemed to require it. To attempt to discuss matters generally with closed doors was quite impossible. To show the extent to which publicity was required and accorded, it was only necessary to recollect to what purpose one of the two galleries of that House was devoted. In the present state of public intelligence and popular feeling, it was impossible for Parliament to legislate either satisfactorily or wisely without from time to time giving publicity to their proceedings. The privilege claimed was quite essential to the protection of the public interest. It was said that the resolutions went far beyond the law of the land, but the law of Parliament was the law of the land, the most important and paramount in authority. Constitutionally and necessarily it overrode every other authority in the country. Parliament, no doubt, was the sole judge of its own privileges; and the courts of law disclaimed all jurisdiction in such matters. But it was asked what if the other House of Parliament should disagree to those resolutions? The case would then be met by conference between the two Houses, and the question would be set at rest. The House had exercised its undoubted right of publishing its reports and proceedings uninterruptedly for two centuries; however criminatory the reports might be, they were never supposed or held to be subjects of criminal proceedings until the case of Mr. Stockdale. And when it was attempted to raise an alarm in the public mind upon the subject, his reply was, that in that, the very first case which had been raised, all that was complained of was found to be true. It had been said, that, a resolution of that House would be of no avail; he, on the contrary, maintained that in every constitutional view that House was for present purposes the Parliament, possessing the entire Parliamentary power as much as if both Houses were united and sitting in the same chamber. This was no new claim of privilege either on the part of the House or public, in a matter where it had the competent means

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of forming a judgment; it was absolutely essential to a due discharge of its most sacred functions; it was bound on every legal authority to affirm the resolutions, and could not without the grossest dereliction of duty and abandonment of the public interests allow the slightest doubt for a moment to remain on the question.
Mr. Thomas Duncombeshould certainly vote against the resolutions; but in doing so he did not consider that he was at all committed to the amendment proposed by his hon. Friend opposite. In proposing the resolutions he maintained that the House was about to vote to itself a privilege which it had never possessed before. He had read with the greatest pleasure and satisfaction the charge of the Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench, in which the independence of the bench, and the liberty of the subject were most manfully defended. The noble Lord who presided in the court had been a Member of the un-reformed, and a Member of the reformed Parliament, and was therefore fully aware of the privileges of the House of Commons; if, then, the House should pass the resolutions now proposed, it would amount in effect to a vote of censure upon that individual, while it would be giving to themselves the most despotic, tyrannical, and arbitrary power, that ever was established.
Mr. Humewas surprised to hear his hon. Friend advance such opinions. No man was more opposed to anything despotic and tyrannical than he was; but he would ask his hon. Friend whether it was not the paramount duty of that House to inquire into abuses, of whatever nature they might be, that were brought before it? And if so, he would also ask whether, if in the course of those inquiries evidence should be adduced criminating particular individuals, they were to stop their proceedings, and prevent all further inquiry being prosecuted? For himself he would say that the high and important duties of Parliament could not be carried on if such a doctrine were to prevail. If the rule laid down by his hon. Friend was to be maintained, then they might as well put an end to all their inquiries. At the same time he admitted it was incumbent on the Committees of the House of Commons to take care that nothing was entered in their minutes which was not strictly necessary to elucidate the subject to which their inquiries were directed. Such a precaution would in a great degree prevent any mis-
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chief arising from the publication of their reports.
Mr. Sergeant Goulburnsaid, that he considered this question one of paramount importance, and on which he found it impossible to give a silent vote. It involved, in effect, nothing less than this fearful issue, viz. whether that House possessed the power by its mere fiat to supersede the law of the land, and shut out the subjects of the realm from the protection heretofore thrown round them by that law? If it possessed that power in cases affecting the private character of individuals, it would follow that it possessed it to an equal extent in cases affecting property, since no man could deny that the right of repelling and refuting slander was a right of equal (frequently of far greater) importance to the subject, than any rights merely involving pecuniary considerations. His learned Friend (Mr. Sergeant Wilde) had talked of the great vigilance and caution with which this right would doubtless be exercised on the part of this House; but he begged to remind his learned Friend, as a proof of what little vigilance or caution was exercised in these matters, that a gross libel on the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, imputing to that learned and excellent person the grossest personal corruption, had been presented to that House by an hon. Member, was afterwards printed, and was now to be purchased for a most inconsiderable sum. The character of the Chief Justice was so deservedly high as to defy all attacks upon it, but the same might be done with respect to the humblest subject in the realm, and that subject would be denied the right of proving the falsehood of the charges made against him—charges it might be of such a nature as to drive him from society. He would also remind the House of the case of the Committee on the Poole Municipal Election Bill, in which the grossest charges were made against numerous individuals of high character in that town, professing to be grounded on affidavits which were wholly omitted from the published report; and yet according to his learned Friend, these individuals were not to be permitted to challenge their accusers to prove, or themselves to be allowed to disprove, the imputations thus falsely thrown upon them. His learned Friend had disputed the authority of the case of Burdett v. Abbott, because forsooth, it occurred "in an un-re formed House of Commons." But

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whence, he would ask, did his learned Friend derive his precedents? Why, from that same source; aye, and in its worst and most corrupt days. The learned Serjeant, in conclusion, called upon the House to pause before it interfered with that supremacy of the law which had hitherto formed the best protection of the subjects of the realm, in whatever station, the humblest as well as the highest, and assumed to itself as one branch of the legislature a power which belonged only to law when enacted by the three estates of the realm.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, that he should be sorry to come to a decision without shortly expressing the ground on which he should vote in favour of the resolutions proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. The first impression of every man, and particularly of those who had not paid much attention to this subject, would unquestionably be adverse to the principle upon which the Report of the Committee was founded; for it must appear manifestly unjust that any public authority should have the power of authorising the publication and the sale of libels upon the characters of individuals. At the same time, however, he was convinced that upon mature reflection those who had given way to this first impression, would ultimately acquiesce in the absolute necessity, if the House of Commons were to continue in the discharge of its constitutional powers, of maintaining this privilege of publication, and in maintaining for itself the exclusive right of judging of the extent and nature of that privilege, Was it, he would ask, the duty of the House of Commons to institute free inquiries into alleged abuses of public trusts? If that were its duty, if it were one of the public functions of the House to institute those inquiries, what was the limit which was to be placed, or the discretion to be exercised, in conducting those inquiries? Was it not manifest, if the House did not possess a free and unfettered power of compelling the appearance of witnesses and of instituting a free and unfettered inquiry, that their privilege, or their duty rather, as the grand inquest of the nation, must be at once paralysed? But if the House of Commons possessed the power of compelling the attendance of witnesses and of compelling those witnesses to make a disclosure of the truth, ought they not, having so done, and having given publicity to such evi-
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dence, to protect those witnesses from the consequences of that disclosure? And as to the publication of the evidence, might not that publication be essential in order to satisfy the public mind with respect to the grounds of their legislation, and to make the constituency of the country aware of the principles upon which their representatives acted? He would say, therefore, that from the dictates of reason, and from what common sense suggested, the House of Commons ought to have the power, subject to no extrinsic control, of exercising their inquiries freely, without being exposed to any legal results. But it was not upon reason and common sense alone that he founded this principle—he founded it upon the uniform practice of Parliament. There was a series of cases showing that for the last 120 years Parliament had been in the practice of instituting these inquiries. It had instituted inquiries with respect to allegations of abuses in the East Indies; with respect to allegations of abuses in the election of Members of Parliament; with respect to allegations of abuses as to the slave trade in the West Indies; and as to the management of the cotton manufactories in this country. The question, then, briefly was, whether the House were to continue in possession of the power of instituting inquiries into alleged abuses or not? If they were to inquire, then did it not of necessity follow that they must have the power to summon and examine witnesses? If, indeed, they were private individuals, they would have no right to publish the truth to which those witnesses might bear testimony; but neither would they have the right to make the inquiries, it was because, as a public body, they had authority to make these inquiries and to submit the result to the public that they were to be privileged. This privilege, it would appear, had been exercised for 120 or 130 years, and during that time Mr. Warren Hastings had been attacked, and many other persons of the highest eminence had been attacked by its exercise, or he ought rather to say would have been at-attacked if the inquiries respecting them had been instituted by an unauthorized body or by individuals. Up to the present time, however, it had been the doctrine that Parliament had the right to institute inquiries of this nature. But on an allegation being made by a Report of a Committee that a Mr. Stockdale had published an obscene pamphlet, an action was brought against an officer of the House of

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Commons for that publication. What said the authorities? He would take the authority of Lord Tenterden, who stated, that he doubted whether there existed the privilege to sell a libel. Lord Denmansaid, that if this publication had been written or printed merely for the use of the Members of the House, it would have been a different thing. They had, then, this admission that there was little doubt of the authority of Parliament to institute these inquiries, and that there was also little doubt of their right to print for the use of their own Members a fair statement of that which was disclosed. Now, he would ask for no further concession in favour of the principle for which he was contending, which was, that the House had the power of protecting parties from the consequences of giving evidence which the House had compelled them to give. The only remaining question was, whether there was a legal distinction between printing for the use of Members and the subsequent sale. He imagined that there was not; and if so, the doctrine that the sale of publications printed for the Members subjected the officers who printed them to question by the Court of King's Bench must be abandoned. Had a man a right to give away a libel? He who circulated a libel merely for a mischievous purpose was equally liable to legal question as the individual who sold it for profit. In the eye of the law there was no distinction between publication and sale. But if this were so, how happened it that a different view would have been taken of this case if the publication had been only for the use of the Members. Let them look at the absurd consequence which would result from the adoption of such a principle. It had been the practice, before that of sale commenced, to print more documents than were required for circulation among the Members, and to distribute them freely; but if the principle which had been laid down could be sustained, should the Speaker give a single copy he would be subject to prosecution. Though Members were entitled to their copies, if, having obtained them, they lent them or if they ceased to be Members were they to be subject to legal question? Suppose a Member went to his constituents, and referred to the documents which as a Member he was entitled to use—suppose, in explaining his conduct to his constituents, he found it necessary to advert to some statement in the documents, and that such statement threw severe aspersions on certain proprietors in the West Indies,
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was he not to be permitted to state the details of those transactions by which his conduct had been determined? Then, would the newspaper that published a report of his speech be liable? He referred to these things merely to show the absurdity of the distinction between publications for the use of Members and the subsequent sale. It was impossible to maintain such a distinction. If they admitted the right to publish for the use of Members, and the right of the Member to publish in vindication to his constituents of the course he had pursued, then they must allow that there was no legal distinction of such a nature as that which he had described. If it could be shown that this privilege were necessary for the protection of the functions of Members, and that for a long series of years there were precedents for the sale of the papers, he could not conceive on what grounds they could refuse to assert their privilege, because now for the first time it was questioned by Mr. Stockdale. A committee which sat on this case would not even be able to make a report without being liable to question, for they thought it necessary, to enable the House and the country to judge of the matter at issue, to print a copy of the declaration filed in the King's Bench on the 7th of November, 1836, and in the course of that document it was stated that John Joseph Stockdale had published a book of a most disgusting nature, and indecent in the extreme. If the King's Bench could interfere in this way with the privileges of the House, it might as well at once close its doors as a court of inquiry. The hon. Member for Ripon had suggested that the better course might be to trust to a declaratory Bill. The objection to that was, that the House of Lords might not agree to it, and then they would have thrown a doubt upon the extent of their privileges, without having succeeded in obtaining a law to secure them. He admitted that the power claimed by the House was arbitrary, and that therefore it became them to use it with the greatest possible caution and discretion. When he called it arbitrary, he meant that it was an exclusive jurisdiction, admitting no co-ordinate authority; but when he compared the disadvantages likely to arise from the exercise of the power with the inconvenience which must result from the House being deprived of it, he found that there was the strongest reason for the House continuing it in its possession.
Mr. Goulburnconceived the resolution

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before the House was too extensive. Although he concurred to a certain extent in all that had fallen from his right hon. Friend, he thought that the resolution should have been so framed as to embrace the case before the House, and that only. It was too much to attempt by such a resolution to sanction the power of that House to publish all and every suggestion that might under every case arise upon evidence given before committees of inquiry upon all questions submitted to them.
Mr. Williams Wynnagreed in most of the abstract propositions of his right hon. Friend, but he thought that the ends of justice for the preservation of private character would be sufficiently answered if the parties who considered themselves libelled were permitted, on petition to come before the House, and attempt to disprove by evidence the charges made derogatory to their character. Such was the tenor of the precedents in all similar cases on the Journals of the House. If an inquiry were to be instituted as to certain alleged criminal acts by a gaoler, and evidence conclusive as to his guilt appeared in the Report of the Committee, would it be tolerated by Parliament that this should be made the ground of an action in a court of law? In his opinion, certainly not. Whenever power was given for the benefit of the public, it would be impossible to guard against some amount of positive evil resulting from its exercise; and the question then was, whether the law of Parliament and the interest of the public should abate in favour of the interests of private individuals. The privilege had existed ever since the reign of Henry 3rd. No one but Chief Justice Holt, and he was opposed in opinion by the eleven other Judges, had attempted to question the principle that the House of Commons was the only competent judge of its privileges. The result of allowing the right to be questioned would be to decide all questions affecting the privileges of the House by an appeal to the House of Lords, and the common privileges would then depend solely on the sufferance of that coordinate branch of the Legislature. He should give his most cordial assent to the resolutions.
Mr. Wakleywas anxious to put a question to the Attorney-General. Their great object was to disseminate the proceedings of that House throughout the world. Now, he was anxious to learn whether the privilege they were about to confer was to be restricted to the Officer of that House, or
1134
to be allowed to the public generally; in other words, he desired to be informed whether, under the sanction of that House, individuals would be allowed to republish any petition or report that had been issued from their office. They would restrict and narrow the benefit to a great extent unless authority were given to all to do that which the officer was authorised to do.
Mr. Hardyparticularly objected to the second resolution as tyrannical.
The first resolution was agreed to.
On the second resolution being put,
Viscount Howicksaid, as some difference of opinion prevailed with regard to this resolution, he thought it might be expedient to alter a portion of the words; the principle he considered unexceptionable. He proposed, then, to make an alteration which, while it would retain all that was necessary, might meet some of the objections urged against the resolution. The amendment he had to suggest was, that they should stop at the word "privileges" at the beginning of the third line; the resolution would then read thus:—"By the law of the privileges of Parliament, this House has the sole and exclusive jurisdiction to determine the degree and extent of its privileges."
Mr. Pembertonthought the omission of the words in question made the resolution less offensive in language, but left it equally objectionable in principle.
Mr. Sergeant Wildesaid, that the words proposed to be left out by the noble Lord had been adopted by the House before.
Mr. Humehoped that the noble Lord would persevere in retaining the original resolution, as he was to gain nothing by the alteration.
Viscount Howickwould adopt the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman.
The House divided on the original resolution:—Ayes 126; Noes 36: Majority 90.
Resolutions agreed to.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Blackburne, I.

Ainsworth, P.

Blake, Martin Jos.

Alsager, Capt.

Bolling, Wm.

Angerstein, John

Bowring, Dr.

Anson, Col.

Bridgeman, H.

Attwood, T.

Brocklehurst, J.

Baines, E.

Brodie, W. B.

Baring, F. T.

Brotherton, J.

Beckett, Sir J.

Buller, E.

Berkeley, hon. F.

Buller, Sir J. B. Yarde

Bernal, R.

Campbell, Sir J.

Bewes, T.

Cavendish, hon. G. H.

Biddulph, Robert

Chalmers, P.

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Chichester, A.

Pattison, James

Clerk, Sir G., Bart.

Pechell, Captain

Collier, John

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

Collins, W.

Perceval, Col.

Crawley, S.

Ponsonby, hon. J.

Darlington, Earl of

Price, Sir Robert

Divett, E.

Pryme, George

Dunbar, George

Pryse, Pryse

Elphinstone, H.

Pusey, P.

Follet, Sir W.

Rice, rt. hon. T. S.

Forster, C. S.

Roche, William

Gaskell, Daniel

Ross, Charles

Gisborne, T.

Rundle, J.

Gordon, Robert

Russel, C.

Goring, H. D.

Russell, Lord J.

Graham, Sir J.

Ruthven, E.

Gully, John

Seymour, Lord

Hastie, A.

Spry, Sir S.

Hawes, B.

Stanley, E. J.

Hay, Sir A. L., Bart.

Stanley, Lord

Heathcoat, J.

Stanley, W. O.

Hector, C. J.

Steuart, R.

Hilsborough, Earl of

Stewart, John

Hinde, J. H.

Strickland, Sir G.

Hindley, C.

Strutt, C.

Holland, E.

Tancred, H. W.

Houstoun, G.

Thomas, Colonel

Howard, Philip Henry

Thompson, Col.

Howick, Viscount

Thornley, T.

Hume, J.

Trelawney, Sir W.

Hurst, R. H.

Tulk, C. A.

James, William

Turner, W.

Johnstone, Sir J.

Verney, Sir H., Bart.

Lennox, Lord G.

Vigors, N. A.

Lennox, Lord A.

Villiers, Charles P.

Lister, E. C.

Vivian, J. H.

Lushington, Dr. S.

Wakley, T.

Lushington, Charles

Wallace, Robert

Lynch, A. H.

Warburton, H.

Mackenzie, T.

Wemyss, Capt.

Macleod, R.

Wilde, Sergeant

Marshall, Wm.

Williams, W.

Morpeth, Viscount

Williams, W. A.

Mullins, hon. F. W.

Wilson, Henry

Murray, right hon. J.

Winnington, H. J.

Musgrave, Sir R.

Wood, Charles

O'Connell, J.

Wynn, rt. hon. C. W.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Wyse, T.

Palmerston, Viscount

Parker, M. E.

TELLERS

Parker, John

Grey, Sir G.

Parrott, J.

Rolfe, Sir R.

List of the NOES.

Balfour, T.

Hayes, Sir E S., Bt.

Baring, W. B.

Hogg, James Weir

Baring, T.

Hotham, Lord

Borthwick, Peter

Jackson, Sergeant

Elley, Sir J.

Jervis, John

Fector, John Minet

Jones, Wilson

Forbes, Wm.

Law, hon. C. E.

Gladstone, Wm. E.

Lawson, Andrew

Glynne, Sir S. R.

Lincoln, Earl of

Goulburn, Sergeant

Marsland, Henry

Grimston, Viscount

Nicholl, John

Halford, H.

Pemberton, Thomas

Hardy, J.

Plumptre, J. P.

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Price, S.G.

Wason, R.

Scarlet, Hon. R.

Williams, Robt.

Stormont, Visct.

Young, G. F.

Sturt, Henry G.

Talfourd, Sergeant

TELLERS.

Trevor, hon. A.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Vivian, John Ennis

Duncombe, T.