Commons Sitting of 28 February 1837

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—County Bridges; Expenses at Elections.

RAILWAYS.
Mr. Pease Mr. Pease moved the appointment of a select committee to inquire and consider how far it might be expedient to take measures for securing that the public lines of railway be laid and hereafter maintained at one and the same standard width, and to report their opinion thereon to the House.
Sir H. Verney Sir H. Verney moved as an amendment, that his Majesty be graciously pleased to appoint a royal commission to consider and report on all proposals for railways or canals which might be submitted to this House. He said it was his opinion that a competent body ought to be appointed to judge of the comparative merits of the railways, on the principle on which such authorities were appointed in France, Belgium, Holland, and other countries.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, it was absurd to lay down one rule for all railways. He felt it to be his duty to oppose both the original motion and the amendment. In his opinion it was too late, after the number of railways that had been completed, or the works of which were far advanced, to attempt to enforce such a regulation as the hon. Gentleman contemplated.
Mr. Gillondid not think the proposal too late. He considered that the legislature were bound to interfere. These speculations, which were rising up so rapidly, were not for the public good, but solely for the benefit of the parties engaged in them.
Sir G. Stricklandfelt bound to oppose both the motion and the amendment. He was opposed to any royal commission having the power of riding over private speculations. After this point had been investigated by the committee, it was decided that no commission could be appointed, or one which could be in any way like that contemplated by the amendment. He thought that the original motion did not stand upon any better ground than the amendment.
Mr. Poulett Thomsoncould not agree to either of the propositions then before the House. With regard to the amendment, he was quite surprised to find it
1162
supported. Those who had given that support could not have read the report of the committee appointed last Session, or, if they had read it, they certainly must have attached but very little importance to it. The question of appointing a royal commission had been closely investigated by the committee, and it was found not to be practicable. The committee had recommended to leave railways, like every other speculation, to the discretion of those who embarked their capital in them, subject only to a severe scrutiny from Parliament. In that recommendation he most cordially concurred, and he hoped the House would set the seal of its approbation to the report of their own committee. He did not deny that capital had been thrown away upon these private speculations, but then they would find it impossible to regulate the expenditure of capital by any Act of Parliament. It was by the Government not meddling with capital that this country had been able to obtain a superiority over every other country.
Mr. Humewished to know whether any advances had recently been made by the Exchequer Bill Commissioners. If there had, it was, in his opinion, only adding to the mischief that had been already done, by encouraging speculations that were ruinous to parties.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that except in cases where they had been already engaged by contract, he doubted that any other engagements had been entered into. In the early part of this Session he had intimated that parties concerned in railways ought not to rely on any such advances. He wished to leave such speculations to the private capital of the parties interested in them.
Both motion and amendment were negatived.

THE ROYAL MINT.
Mr. Laboucherestated, that in pursuance of the notice which he had given, he had to CHLL Inattention of the House to that department over which he had the honour to me side. Although the subject, or the d tail connected with it, might not appear to be very interesting, yet both were of considerable importance. He trusted, therefore, that the House would favour him with is attention for a short spare of time. It would not be necessary to detain hon. Members for a very long time, because

1163
his principal object was, to endeavour to have an inquiry instituted into the establishment with which he was connected, through the medium of a select committee. In preparing a Bill upon this subject, it would be found that he was not prejudging any of the questions which the committee would have to determine, but rather that he had smoothed the way for them. One branch of the subject was the manner in which the expenses of the Mint were defrayed. What he proposed to do upon this point he had put together in a Bill, which he meant to ask leave to introduce that night. The average expenditure of the Mint, including costs for prosecutions, was 52,000 l. a-year. His wish, then, was to submit to Parliament the estimates altogether which were in any way connected with the Mint, instead only of a small part of its expenditure. He considered the latter a very inconvenient mode. He proposed in his Bill to put a stop to this practice. He wished to put together all the sources from which the Mint was supplied, and to substitute one single estimate. This was certainly the most constitutional mode of proceeding. It was of the greatest advantage to the public service; and this he wished to have done—namely, that the amount of the vote for the Mint—that the whole of the items for the one service should annually be submitted to that House. He had stated that 52,000 l. were defrayed for the expenses of the Mint. There were four sources from which that money was supplied to the. Mint. The first of them was the manner in which the Master of the Mint was paid; and he could conceive that nothing could be more objectionable. The Treasury allowed the Master of the Mint for every pound Height of gold employed, the sum of 6s. 8¼ed, out of which he paid the expense of the coinage, and the master's fees of 1s. 10 d. a pound, the surplus being carried to the account of the general expenses. This was the system still acted upon, and the 1s. 10 d. upon every pound was said to constitute the master's emoluments. It amounted to a very large sum; in some years of a large coinage it amounted to as much as 12,000 l. Some years ago a Bill was passed for regulating the salary of the master, but whilst it left all the old machinery, it merely enacted that the fees should continue to be paid to the Master of the Mint by the Treasury; that
1164
he should take out of them his regulated salary of 2,000 l. with the one hand, whilst he should pay back with the other hand to the Treasury the surplus, amounting to 8,000 l. Such a system as this produced a great confusion of accounts—it was useless; and he thought that a word could not be said in its favour. But, besides producing a great confusion of accounts, it had the effect of causing great mistakes as to what was supposed to be the expenses of the coinage; it led to considerable public mistake in this respect. He understood that since the year 1816 the repayment to the Treasury had not been less than 80,000 l. He proposed entirely to abolish this system. He proposed that the salaries of the master and other officers of the Mint should be submitted to the scrutiny of a Committee of that House, and that they should entirely do away with the present cumbrous and useless machinery. The next source from which the expenses of the Mint were defrayed was derived from the Consolidated Fund, to the amount of 13,800 l. yearly. This grant rested upon an Act of Parliament of the 18th of Charles the Second, and was applicable to the general purposes of the Mint. Wishing, as he stated before, that the whole of the expenses should be expressly defrayed in one simple manner, he proposed to do away with this grant altogether. He meant that it should no longer be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, but that the Mint should come to Parliament for a vote to supply any deficiency. He now came to the third source from which the expenses of the Mint were defrayed, and it appeared to him to be more objectionable than any of the other sources. What he alluded to was the manner in which the profits of the silver and copper coinage were applied to the general purposes of the Mint. The profits of the coinage had amounted since the year 1816 to not less than 500,000 l. of money. The application of these sums, according to the present system, never came under the scrutiny of that House. It was completely veiled from the observation of the public. All that was known was, that it was supposed to be appropriated for the general purposes of the Mint. He must say, that the system was not only objectionable in this respect, but also inasmuch as a discretion was left to the Master of the Mint, without the control of the Treasury, to apply this

1165
money in any manner that should appear to him to be in any way connected with the Mint. This appeared to him to be exceedingly objectionable. It was proposed to repeal this Act, and that in future the Master of the Mint should pay the whole of the profits derived from the coinage into the Consolidated Fund. The fourth source from which the expenses were derived was by a vote of that House. It varied very much, as it of course depended upon circumstances. Last year it amounted to 16,000 l. and the year before, it only amounted to 3,000 l. As he before stated, he proposed to substitute this one mode for all the modes that had hitherto been adopted, and he would therefore have to propose a vote for the purpose in the present year, amounting to the entire of the expenses, namely, 52,000 l. There was only one more point connected with this part of this subject, to which he felt it necessary to call the attention of the House. Any Gentleman who at all considered the nature of the Mint transactions, would be aware that it was necessary that the Master of the Mint should be, to a certain degree, a trader in bullion, it being necessary that he should purchase the gold, silver, and copper required for the coinage. In order that he might be enabled to do this, he must have in his hands a certain fund with which he might go into the market. The manner in which this fund had been hitherto obtained, was by the Master of the Mint detaining, in rather an arbitrary manner, any sum of money that remained out of the profits on the silver and copper coinage, and using it in the purchase of bullion. As Master of the Mint, he knew that there was, at that moment, in his hands the sum of 80,000 l.,which was actually being applied in this manner. It was proposed by the Bill, which he wished to introduce, to oblige the Master, instead of detaining this money, to pay it into the Consolidated Fund; and in order to supply the Master with the necessary means of carrying on the services of the Mint, he had introduced a clause to this effect:—"It shall and may be lawful for the Lords of the Treasury to make advances of money to the Mint, from time to time, for this purpose; it being compulsory on them, at the beginning of every Session, to lay upon the Table of the House an account of the whole of the money thus advanced, and the purposes to which applied."
1166
This, in his opinion, was the most expedient, the most constitutional, and the most regular mode of carrying on the necessary operation of the public services of the Mint. With regard to the details of the Bill he proposed to introduce, he would not at that stage trouble the House with any further observations, except to state that he thought it bolter to bring it for ward than run the risk of delaying the question for another year, by first referring the matter to a Committee. So much for the Bill. It might, however, save the time of the House, and be more satisfactory, if, having stated what the Bill was, he should at once proceed to state the grounds on which he ventured to recommend the House to grant a Select Committee to consider this subject. What he had stated formed only a small and insignificant part of the business of the Mint, but he was bound to say, that, filling the situation of Master of the Mint as he had for two years, he could not think he should have performed the duty he owed to the public if he had not asked the House to institute inquiry into the manner in which that department was conducted. He begged, however, not to be understood as expressing any opinion of sweeping or general condemnation of the system. On the contrary, he was ready to admit, that many parts of that system were good, and this was proved by the fact that many foreign countries had actually adopted them. Still less did he wish it to be understood, that he meant to say anything in disparagement of the officers of the Mint. So far from it, he was bound to take that opportunity of declaring, that there could not be found men of greater respectability or higher professional honour; but, still, looking at the whole system, he did think that the subject was one which required grave and mature inquiry, in order to ascertain whether it would be advisable to make any further alterations in the system than those which he now proposed for adoption. The motion he should make was, and he begged particular attention to it, for "a Select Committee to inquire into the establishment of the Royal Mint, and the system on which the fabrication of the coin is conducted." He had paid particular attention to the wording of his motion, as he was naturally desirous that no mistake with respect to the object which he had in view should be entertained out of doors, or that it should be for a moment

1167
supposed that the Committee would have anything to do with the currency question. His object in proposing the appointment of a Committee had nothing whatever to do with that question, and therefore he hoped the Committee would not carry their inquiry beyond that which he intended. "While he said this, it was far from his wish to exclude any inquiry the Committee might think fit to make on any subject relating to the Mint: but with respect to the standard, it certainly was not his intention that they should go into any such inquiry, and he did trust that they would exclude all investigation on that subject. He would not trouble the House with any further details. The Mint had, he might say, remained unaltered, as far as its constitution was concerned, from the time of Charles 2nd. It was true that, in 1816 when Lord Mary borough was Master of the Mint, some improvements were introduced, but then none that at all affected its main principles. The Mint consisted partly of establishment and partly of profits, but he was bound to say, that he did not consider the establishment too large, nor the officers at all over-paid. However, he admitted that some of the sources of emolument were of a nature to be a proper subject of inquiry. There were some of these sources of emolument which, from their nature, were open to suspicion, and liable to misrepresentation, and to which it would be especially the duty of the Committee to direct attention. There was one particular subject, however, which would mainly call for the attention of the Committee; he alluded to the system that at present prevailed, where the Master of the Mint entered into a contract with the moneyers. Now, he was exceedingly desirous that this part of the system should be closely examined into, and that was his main motive in bringing the entire subject under the notice of a Committee of the House. The present system was extremely ancient. The company of moneyers had exercised the privileges they at present enjoyed for a great number of years; but he did not think that was a sufficient reason why they should be paid higher than that for which others would be found to do the same business. It was found that our coinage was more expensive than that of other countries, and it was a question worthy of inquiry and consideration, whether these men were able to maintain £he Mint system in a proper state of effici-
1168
ency, and with a due regard to that fair and proper economy which it was the public interest to promote. When he spoke of economy, he wished to be distinctly understood as repudiating that false system of economy which would cripple the efficiency of the Mint. What he meant by economy was, that they should endeavour to conduct the whole operations of the Mint in a business-like and efficient manner. He trusted, that during the recess of Parliament, he had employed himself so successfully as to be enabled to shorten the labours of the Committee considerably as respected the objects of their inquiry. He had exerted himself, and, as he thought, with effect, to procure very important information with respect to the state of the coinage of this country, as well as that of foreign countries, particularly of France and America. It was rather curious that, looking to those two countries, in both which the strictest vigilance and control were exercised throughout all the Government departments, yet, in respect to the coinage, they adopted systems totally and thoroughly distinct. In France, they carried the system of contract to a much greater extreme than in this country, whilst in America the coinage was conducted by a Government establishment, and wholly placed under its management and direction. It was calculated to embarrass the inquiry of the Committee, when they found in these countries two different systems prevailing, and both perfectly successful; but they would have the advantage of fully considering the ample information that would be brought before them, and thus be best enabled to come to the conclusion of what system could be applied in the coinage of this country, so as to secure its best, most efficient, and satisfactory operation. He would conclude by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the several Acts relating to the Royal Mint.
Mr. Humerose to second the motion, and was glad that the subject had been brought forward so early in the present Session. During last Session he (Mr. Hume) had paid great attention to this matter, and, had not the occupation of his time by other business prevented him, it was his intention to move for a Committee of Inquiry. He was, however, of opinion that such inquiries were always much more usefully conducted when suffered to re-

1169
main in the hands of the department to which they related; and when a department was willing to undertake such an inquiry he was always much better pleased, for, in such cases, the public business was always better attended to. Now, if he had obtained a Committee of Inquiry last year, he should have been unable to obtain the important information which had been acquired through the exertions of the right hon. Gentleman. It had been properly stated that this inquiry would not interfere in any way with the public circulation of the country. He would now discuss whether they might not have a better coinage if greater facilities were afforded to private individuals. One advantage, however, would result from this inquiry, that public servants would receive a fixed and settled salary, and that they would receive no profit, directly or indirectly, or have no interest whatsoever, in the mode in which the business of the department was conducted, beyond the proper discharge of the duties that devolved upon them. They had set an example with respect to the officers of their own House, which he trusted would pervade all the departments of the public service, namely, that the public servants should be rewarded by fixed and settled salaries, and have no expectation or interest from fees of any description. He did not say that those Gentlemen connected with the department now under consideration were entitled to particular blame for having received considerable sums of money—they were only emoluments taken in the ordinary course of their service; but, however blameless the individuals, the system was not the better. It was satisfactory to hear it stated that there was no disposition to interfere with the present standard of value, the certainty and stability of which was so necessary to the public interest. It would be their object to consider how they could adopt a system most conducive to the public interests in general, and to the commercial interests of the country. Until the Committee could come to the conclusion of their inquiry, it would be premature to discuss whether they ought to depart from the contract system or not; but he would repeat his satisfaction that the inquiry was about to take place, and he had no doubt that it would be followed up by a satisfactory and practical result.
Mr. Claywished to ask the right hon.
1170
Gentleman whether in the Bill he proposed to make a provision for that remuneration to the moneyers which they at present received under the contract system in the shape of a percentage on the amount of coin? He understood that it was intended by the Bill to do away with the percentage, and to place the whole department under the management of the Exchequer.
Mr. Laboucheresaid, that the sole object of the present Bill would be to get the money from the public by a vote of the House, instead of from other sources; but the present measure did not propose to interfere with the mode of payment of the officers of the Mint, which would remain unaltered. But with respect to the inquiry before the Committee, it would of course be competent for them to inquire into every part of the entire system.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that it was unnecessary to say, that the present measure had the sanction of the Government. He was exceedingly gratified that this motion had been brought forward, although in the present very thin state of the House it might not receive that attention to which from its importance it was entitled. The subject which had been introduced by his right hon. Friend was one to which for a long time he had paid particular attention. His right hon. Friend had been anxious to bring forward the subject last Session, but had been induced not to take that step, because it was thought that they could come to the examination of the whole subject much more advantageously, and with fuller information, in the present Session. It was most material to apply the most improved, safe, and economical principles to the management of all public departments. The present system under which the Mint was conducted, was a most complicated and unsatisfactory system. It was a complicated, difficult, operas, and unintelligible system. Indeed, he might say, that the business of the Mint was conducted, in an unconstitutional mode. They were desirous to substitute the simple mode of a vote of Parliament of the necessary sums, and the introduction into the management of the Mint of the same principles as were applied to the management of all the other public establishments connected with the Government. He wished it to be understood with respect to the inquiry before the Committee, that it was

1171
their intention to confine that inquiry strictly within the bounds prescribed by the order of reference, and expressed in the speech of his right hon. Friend. Let it not be supposed that, because they were about to enter upon this inquiry, they had any disposition to open the question of the standard of value. The present inquiry had no more connexion with the standard of value than an inquiry into the mode of conducting the business of the Admiralty, or any other of the public departments of the country.
Motion agreed to, and Bill brought in and read a first time.
A committee moved for by Mr. Labouchere was appointed.

MORTGAGES ON SHIPS AND VESSELS.
Mr. George F. Young, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law relating to mortgages on ships, as he understood his motion would not be opposed, felt disposed to limit himself to a brief exposition of the evils of the present system and of the remedy which he proposed to apply. Up to the year 1825, the state of the law as to the security of money advanced on mortgages of ships was very defective. In that year Mr. Hockessin (whose great abilities he willingly acknowledged, however he might differ from some of his views) brought forward a series of measures affecting the commerce of the country, and the maritime commerce more especially. He proposed a Bill for affording greater facilities in raising- money on ships, and he thought that he was thus affording an advantage to ship owners. Now, so far from this measure having been found beneficial, it was the source of great evil and of very great disadvantage. The operation of the Bill was this, that it enabled persons without capital to become owners of ships, which ships they afterwards mortgaged, and by the facility of obtaining credit thus afforded, persons without capital were enabled to enter into the wildest speculations, to an extent injurious to the security of the capital of the prudent man engaged in the maritime commerce of the country. The ship owners, and those for whose benefit this measure had been intended, complained of it as a source of very great evil. The system that at present prevailed was productive of frauds of a very extensive description on those who, as tradesmen, were connected with the building and
1172
equipment of ships. Now, in the measure which he proposed, for the purpose of patting an end to this system of fraud, he was anxious that no difficulty should be thrown in the way of obtaining money on mortgages of ships by bona fide owners, who might happen to be in a state of temporary embarrassment. The principle of the measure he wished to propose was, that every man should be free to obtain money on that which was really his own property; but that no person should be permitted to hypothecate that which was not his own, or obtain credit on the property of others. He would not at present enter into the details of the measure, which would be the subject of future consideration. He had the satisfaction of stating that his hon. Friend, the Member for the Tower Hamlets, concurred in the advantage that would result from this measure, and he could appeal to the opinions of the hon. Member for Whit by, who had given notice of a motion on this subject in the course of the last Session. He could, in conclusion, give the fullest assurances to those connected with the shipping interests of the country, that the measure he proposed to introduce was one calculated to cause them no alarm. The hon. Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonsaid, that it was not his intention to offer any opposition to the motion. He believed that such a measure was necessary, and when it came before the House, he would give it every consideration in his power. When the Bill of 1825 was brought forward he was not in Parliament, but he believed that it was brought forward with the concurrence of the ship owners, who thought that it would confer a particular benefit on themselves. He believed, however, that they entertained a different opinion now. It was right, however, that all parties interested in the question, should have full time to consider the plan proposed. He hoped, therefore, the hon. Member would give full time for the consideration of the measure; and, so far as he (Mr. Poulett Thomson) was concerned, he would give to the arguments of all parties interested, both for and against the measure, the fullest attention in his power.
Mr. George F. Youngsaid, that he proposed in the first instance to introduce the Bill and have it circulated generally through the country, so as to enable

1173
all parties interested to express their opinion of the measure.
Leave given.

MILLBANK PENITENTIARY.
Mr. Fox Maule Mr. Fox Maule moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Acts for the regulation of the Penitentiary at Mill bank. He did not think it necessary to go into any detail, but if any explanation of the proposed measure was required he was ready to afford it. The object of the Bill was to repeal several of the old Acts.
Mr. Hawesexpected, that the hon. Gentleman would have afforded the House some information as to whether this measure proposed any alteration in (he present system of prison discipline. There was another point of importance, on which information was desirable, namely, with respect to the cost of maintaining prisoners. In respect to this expenditure, sometimes it was high and sometimes low, and he hoped that some attempt would be made to effect an uniformity of system. There was another very important subject, namely, the proper treatment of juvenile offenders. There were no less than 3,000 children passed through the gaols of the metropolis in a very short period of time, and he had no doubt they came out worse than they went in. He felt bound to say, without meaning to cast an imputation on any particular individual, that the office of Secretary of State for the Home Department was an office that did very little good. There was far less attention paid by that department to the criminal jurisprudence of the country than ought to be expected from an office so constituted and so well paid. Now, he would refer to the prison of Newgate, which was disgraceful. There had been v some improvement in the shape of building additional cells, but with that exception the recommendation of the Commissioners seemed to be as far as ever from being carried into effect. He had introduced the subject unexpectedly. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman was not prepared to give any information on those points, and if that was the case he would have no objection to wait for the second reading of the Bill, when he would be prepared to enter into the entire subject.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the absence of his noble Friend, the Secretary for the Home Department, wished to say a few words in reference to what had fallen from the hon. Gentleman. He quite
1174
agreed as to the importance of those subjects to which the hon. Member had referred, but the hon. Gentleman was quite mistaken if he supposed, that a remedy for those evils could be found and applied be easily as the hon. Gentleman had imagined. Now, with respect to the subject of prison discipline, the first step they should take was to be certain of the facts: and, as regarded secondary punishments, they should endeavour to ascertain how far public opinion would go along with them in any system they might adopt, and whether from want of support in that respect there middy they would employ would not be exposed to failure. There were many other difficulties that beset that part of the question. He could state, on the part of his noble Friend, the Secretary for the Home Department, that the subject of adopting some better system with respect to juvenile offenders, had not escaped the attention of the Government, and that his noble Friend was prepared with a plan on that subject, which he hoped to be able to carry into effect. As to the state of Newgate, it was generally admitted, that the condition of that prison called loudly for a remedy, and one of the objects of this Bill, was to prepare for carrying into effect the recommendation of the Commissioners, both with regard to the improvement of that prison and adopting some better system towards juvenile offenders. With respect to the duties of the Home Office, when the hon. Member spoke lightly of those duties he was much mistaken. He might say, that he had served an apprenticeship in that Department and he could state, that there was always much to be done in it of great importance, and much, too, which never came under the notice of the House. Independent of its other duties the Home Department was an office of reference for the magistrates and judges, and perhaps the best proof of the efficient manner in which those matters were attended to was, that they so seldom came under the notice of Parliament. With respect to inattention to the criminal jurisprudence of the country, he could say, that there was now on the notice-book a notice for the introduction of the largest measure of criminal law reform that ever came before the consideration of the House. He would not anticipate the discussion of this measure, but when it was brought forward he was sure that the House would give it

1175
its best consideration. That measure would lay the ground for the adoption of secondary punishments, for an improvement in prison discipline, and a total alteration of the system with respect to juvenile offenders.
Alderman Woodsaid, that the hon. Member for Lambeth seemed to have a particular taste for finding fault with the prison of Newgate. He did not know whether the hon. Member had been there since he became a Member of that House. At present every effort was making to enlarge that prison, and afford an increase of accommodation, and nothing had been left undone by the Court of Aldermen to bring that prison within the plan of the Secretary of State, so far as the separation and accommodation of untried prisoners. For this purpose several new cells had been made. The expenditure in this respect had been greatly increased since Middlesex, Kent, Surrey, and Essex had been added by the new Criminal Court Act. As to juvenile offenders, the increase of boys in the prison of Newgate was very great. Most of the children were sent in by their parents. They were generally committed for stealing some trifling matter from their father or grandfather, or some one else, and sent to Newgate. He thought it would be a great improvement to have a summary jurisdiction and to punish children in a summary way, and not let them remain in prison. This jurisdiction might be exercised by the Government or some other proper authority. He had heard much of the benefit of educating children; but many children who were in prison knew how to read and write, and many of them for new offences were sent to gaol a second time. They might continue to keep up this Penitentiary. Sometimes it was filled and some times empty. "When it was filled disease broke out there. Yet there was no complaint of the Penitentiary—all the blame was reserved for Newgate, and he believed for no other reason than because that prison was under the government of a set of magistrates who were not popular in that House. He must condemn as one of the sources of the evil, the system of allowing convicts to remain in the prison of New-gate for a long time under sentence of death until their convictions were reported to the King in Council. There were prisoners at present who had been capitally convicted three sessions ago, and who
1176
would not be reported to the King in Council until to-morrow. He thought this was an absurd procedure, and that a record of their conviction should be sufficient, as was the case in the several counties of England. He believed that at one time the hon. Member for Lambeth had a desire to be called to the Court of Aldermen. He was a member of various courts in the City and from the activity which the hon. Member had displayed since he came into Parliament he had no doubt that if he was a member of the Court of Aldermen he would be of valuable assistance in reforming the prison of Newgate. He did not see why the prison of Dart moor was not made use of for the purpose of lessening the number of inmates in Newgate. That prison was situated in a most healthy spot, and he did not know why it had been abandoned. He did not think that they ought to allow a convict to remain in Newgate a single day after his sentence had passed. They had done all in their power for the improvement of Newgate, unless it was supposed that, for the accommodation of Surrey, Middlesex, or Kent, they were to expend the entire funds of the Corporation.
Mr. Fox Maulerose to repudiate the charges that had been urged against the department to which he belonged. With respect to secondary punishments and juvenile offenders, the first clause of the Bill he proposed to introduce, enacted that the Secretary of State for the Home Department should have the power to order the removal of convicts from New gate to the Penitentiary, with the view of adopting secondary punishments. The Secretary for the Home Department had given the utmost attention to the reduction of the expense of this establishment, and in the estimates for the present year there would be found a reduction of 2,000 l. in that respect.
Leave given to bring in the Bill.