Commons Sitting of 3 August 1836

MINUTES.
Bills. Head a third time:—Medical Witnesses,

ON RAILWAYS—ALTERATIONS IN THE STANDING ORDERS.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonrose, as Chairman of the Committee appointed by that House, to propose the adoption by the House of the Resolutions

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to which the Committee had come. Perhaps it would be more convenient, as they would have to go through the resolutions seriatim, if any objections were made to them, for him to offer, with the assistance of the other Members of the Committee, any explanations that should be necessary, rather than to take up the time of the House in pointing out all the alterations which it was proposed to make. He would merely state, that the Committee over which he had had the honour to preside had given their best attention to the consideration of the subject; first, with regard to any amendment that it was desirable to introduce into the standing orders on railroads which were especially referred to them, and afterwards in consequence of suggestions made to them on the standing orders generally. In the course of their investigation into the subject, the reference of a petition for a Bill to a Committee naturally came before them, and it appeared that the present, practice was one which the Committee could not recommend the continuance of. It appeared, that in a petition of that description there was very little for serious consideration, the parties being heard on one side, the matter in cases of difficulty and doubt being sent to the Standing Orders' Committee. They, therefore, suggested to the House the propriety of altering that tribunal, and referring such petitions to a Committee of a different description. They proposed for this purpose to constitute, at the beginning of the Session, a Committee, consisting of forty-two Members, to be divided into six sub-Committees, having power to act each as a separate Committee, under such regulations as should be approved of by the Committee annually when first instituted. The facts of the case would be investigated by that Committee, or by each of the sub-Committees, so as to ascertain if the standing orders had been complied with, and he entertained little doubt that the business would be got through speedily, and with infinitely more care and attention than the present system admitted of. He then proposed, that the Committee should take cognizance of facts, and that upon the facts as reported to the House, the Standing Order Committee, which they proposed to diminish in number to fifteen, and which would of course consist of Members that would not serve on the other Committees, would give their decision, which would be
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an equitable one, as to the Bill going on or not. There would be a tribunal before which the facts would be proved—there would be a tribunal which would decide on these facts, and administer an equitable jurisdiction with reference to the facts thus proved. These were the principal alterations—there were other alterations, which would be read from the chair, on which he did not think it necessary to make any remark, as they would be explained hereafter. He then came to the resolutions relating to the standing orders on the railways themselves. A great number of the alterations proposed were rendered necessary in consequence of no standing orders being applicable to railways before; but having been placed generally under standing orders of canals and navigation. There was another change that deserved to be noticed—namely, the recommendation of the Committee with regard to a change of time for giving notices. They proposed, that the time for the deposit of maps, charts, and plans, should be changed from the 30th of November to the 1st of March; this would have the effect of throwing back Bills for six months, or one Session of Parliament; but they did not propose to apply that rule to any Bill that might be brought forward during the next Session. The Committee had drawn up two sets of resolutions—one referring to the next Session, and the other to Bills to be brought in afterwards. Into the first of these series they had introduced all the amendments they had considered necessary, with the exception of the change of time to which he had already alluded; and he should hope that no objection would be made by the House to the adoption of that change. The Committee had paid great attention to the subject, and after the most mature consideration, they had come to the resolution, that the proposed change was most necessary and advisable. Greater opportunity would thereby be afforded to parties along the line to make themselves acquainted with the proposed line, and the way in which it would affect them, and to admit of more consideration in every respect. In subsequent resolutions the Committee had modified the plan, the effect of which would be, that the promoters of Bills would have from five to six months afforded them to prepare their maps and plans, and not to get them up in the hasty and incorrect, manner as here-

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tofore, and all those interested would have ample opportunity to confer, and to decide on the best and most approved line. But still more important advantage would be gained, as the parties applying for Bills would be obliged to put in their plans by the 1st of March, and those plans would be open to the inspection of Committees sitting on any other Bills. Great difficulty had arisen from the resolution regarding competing lines, for parties were found who hastily got up projects without plans, which they submitted as competing lines, and thus considerable delay took place, while the bonâ fide projectors were subjected to unnecessary expense. These were the principal reasons which had induced the Committee to recommend these alterations. There was one other alteration which he would mention—they now proposed that parochial plans and sections should be lodged in the hands of parish clerks in England, and parish schoolmasters in Scotland—that would be an arrangement which would be easily complied with by parties, and it would be a very great advantage to small proprietors, who were unable, without serious inconvenience, to travel to the offices of the Clerks of the Peace. He did not intend to enter into the details of the resolutions, but he thought it necessary to say so much of the changes contemplated by them. He would only add, that it appeared to the Committee, that it was necessary to come to some understanding with the other House of Parliament; and he was happy to say that the resolutions, though there had not been, and could not be any, official communication between the Committees of the two Houses, were likely to meet with the concurrence of the other House; so that, if no obstacle interfered, the practice of the two Houses would be assimilated at the same time, which would be of great advantage. In submitting these resolutions to consideration, he must observe, that they did not emanate from one side of the House, but came generally from hon. Gentlemen well acquainted with the private business of the House, who had bestowed much attention on the subject, and whom he then saw opposite, and ready to assist him in any explanation that might be required.
Resolutions read seriatim.
On the Second Resolution, "That a Select Committee, consisting of forty-two Members (not being members of the
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Select Committee on Standing Orders), shall be appointed at the commencement of every Session, to which shall be referred all petitions for private bills, except those for Bills to continue or amend any Act for making, maintaining, keeping in repair, or improving any turnpike-road."
Mr. Wilkssaid, he feared that the alteration proposed by his Majesty's Ministers would not be of any great practical use. The House might think they were doing a great deal, when in fact they were doing little or nothing. Nothing was more unsatisfactory than the manner in which the private business of the House was conducted. The appointment of a new Select Committee of forty-two Members would be a serious injury, instead of a great good; it would lead to the increase of litigation, and a new system of expending the money of persons who make applications for Bills. Such things, in his opinion, were to be deprecated. They wanted something similar to that which existed in the House of Lords, to which every Bill might be referred—namely, a competent legal authority and legal officers. He did not think that the present plan would meet the substantial evils of which the country complained, and of which the House and every individual Member of it had a right to complain.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that the hon. Member who had just sat down had introduced various topics which were not at all connected with the question before the House. He was decidedly of opinion it was worth while to try the experiment proposed. The only doubt he entertained was whether forty Members would undertake the business; but he believed there would be no difficulty about that. The resolutions had been framed for the protection of public as well as private interests, and under these circumstances he hoped the House would agree to them.
Mr. John Parkeralluded to the great additional expense which was entailed upon the parties having Bills before committees by the length of time which counsel was allowed to occupy. He hoped the right hon. Baronet would turn his attention to that part of the subject.
Mr. Aglionbythought, after the very clear and business-like observation they had heard, no one could doubt the eligibility of the plan. The hon. Member for Boston mistook the matter very much if he supposed that the difficulties

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which Bills had to encounter before the Standing Orders Committee were not of a very serious nature. He, in the course of his experience on Committees, had found that (he greatest difficulties always arose from the standing orders. As to the impracticability of procuring forty-two Members able and willing to perform the duties required of them, he had gone through the list a short time since, and had made out, to his surprise, from both sides of the House, a list of no less than eighty-six Members, unexceptionable in every respect, and he did not think there would be much difficulty in reducing that number to forty-two.
Captain Pechellcordially approved of the resolutions brought forward by the Committee. Great dissatisfaction had been created throughout the country by the system hitherto pursued in Railway Committees. He could bear witness to that point from his experience on the Brighton Railway Committee, on which he sat for fifty-four days.
Resolution, agreed to as were the whole of the other resolutions.

STAFFORD BOROUGH.
Mr. Divett Mr. Divett, after shortly adverting to the rejection of this Bill by the House of Lords, the nature of the inquiry instituted by that House, and the facts it elicited, moved the further suspension of the writ until ten days after the commencement of the next Session.
Sir Thomas Fremantle Sir Thomas Fremantle, concurring in the necessity for suspending the writ for the present, thought the House ought not to be bound down to the time proposed by the hon. Member. If the hon. Gentleman would amend his motion by moving the suspension of the writ for a week or ten days, he should not object to it.
Writ suspended until Thursday, the 11th of August.

JEWISH CIVIL DISABILITIES BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved that this Bill be now read a second time.
Sir Robert Inglis: At last, Sir, we are called upon to discuss this measure, and in a House which, if any Member chose to exercise his undoubted right, might easily be counted out—a House consisting, perhaps, of thirty-five Members (I will not press the objection, because after so long a postponement I wish to take the ques-
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tion on its merits), but it is in such a House that a measure which I and many who think with me consider will have a vital influence on the Christian character of this Christian Legislature, is to be decided. The Bill now before us has been upon the Orders of the House almost as long as the famous Pension Duties' Bill—fifty-five days; sufficiently long at least to tire the patience of any man not actuated by a strict sense of duty. I know, at least, that I speak from my own experience, and I believe that of many of my friends, when I say, that duty alone has brought us clown to this House week after week, in expectation of this measure coming on. Is not the plain reason this—that a measure in itself bad can only be perpetrated—I use no harsher term, by a mode still worse? By the mode of effecting the object of this Bill we shall, in my opinion, be unchristianizing ourselves. Let it always be remembered that we are not legislating for New Zealand or Nova Zembla, or any newly established colony. We are legislating for a state of society in which the supreme power has, and long has been, vested in certain bodies, under certain long established conditions and restrictions. It is not therefore that you are called upon,a priori, to enact the conditions on which the legislative power shall be exercised. You are called upon to admit the Jews, by omitting that emphatic declaration which every one of you have made at that Table; that we, entering upon our legislative functions, will discharge them "upon the true faith of a Christian." This I contend makes an essential difference between an Act by which in any other country, or above all in a newly erected State, the Jews would be admitted into civil power, and an Act, such as that now under consideration, by which we renounce for ourselves and for them, that solemn covenant which at the Table of this House we make with our country and our God, to perform our duties as Legislators "upon the true faith of a Christian." I know that among those who support this measure there are many (none more than my right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer) who cannot without reluctance and pain, reflect that they are about to take such means of effecting such an object; not to introduce, but to erase words; and about to enact, that they will not in future discharge their legislative duties "upon

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the true faith of a Christian," for that is the real point at issue; that is the only mode in which the object of this Bill can be effected; I am certain they must feel regret in reflecting upon this. I am certain their real sentiments, if expressed, would be such as these, "We are truly sorry to be compelled to take this course; but it is the only mode by which our object can be effected: a public measure is to be carried; it cannot be carried but by this means; we are grieved thus to throw into the dust our common Christianity; but the Jew will not be contented without; contented he must be; therefore annihilated must be that solemn declaration of the Christianity of the Members of this House. I have, however, rather anticipated the order in which I should have discussed this question. I should first have said, that my objection was absolutely to the admission of Jews into this House; whatever might be the mode in which it was done, and independently of my objection to the means by which this Bill proposes to effect the object; but which, in such a country as this, and with such a body of legislation as lies upon that Table, is, I admit, the only method by which it could be effected. I strongly, and unconditionally, protest against the introduction of the Jews into Parliament at all. I believe that the Jews, by their own testimony, and by the testimony of all antiquity, may be considered—no one will deny it—as an entirely distinct and separate nation. I repeat, it is not that which we (when I say "we" I mean every Christian community in Europe)—it is not what we say, it is not what their opponents say (that might be considered as a relic of barbarism),—it is the language of the Jews themselves, that they are a distinct people. No one, I believe, will venture to contradict the evidence which I shall bring in confirmation of this statement; not from writers six, seven, or eight centuries old (for they might be deemed influenced by the barbarous prejudices of past ages), but from modern writers of their own nation. Before I go farther let me say that I have never, in discussing this question (and I have been called to discuss it often), I have never, so far as I can recollect, suffered myself to speak of the Jews with disrespect. I have stated what I believe to be the fact, that, notwithstanding the vulgar prejudice against the Jews, their
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moral character, taking numbers for numbers, will bear comparison with that of any other people. I have never rested my opposition to their claims upon any popular antipathies, never availed myself of any prejudice against their character; let me add, that as a nation I regard them as a standing miracle, and as such I speak of them not merely with respect but with awe. The question now is, whether they regard themselves as a nation, not merely separated from us at present, but for ever impossible to be united to us. I believe they do thus regard themselves; and more than that, let it be considered they are as a nation, necessarily, essentially, opposed to that which we regard as our greatest privilege, our highest blessing, our brightest distinction;—they are necessarily, and on principle, hostile to that which we regard as the crown of all our glory (or if we do not so regard it we are not entitled to style ourselves Christians)—our common Christianity.
Sir, I say, that the distinction of the Jews consists not merely in their creed: they are a nation; their creed and nationality are one and the same, and that this is their own belief I shall now proceed to show. A few years ago, a letter was addressed to my right hon. Friend, then Secretary of State for the Home Department. It was a published letter,—from Mr. Hart to Sir Robert Peel—and the writer thus expresses himself: "I feel myself called upon, as a member of an ancient and oppressed people." The House will see, the Jews do not claim relief as the Roman Catholics, or as the Protestant Dissenters claim it—as fellow-subjects differing in religious belief; but they appeal to us as a distinct people; they give us at once to see that they believe themselves to be a nation; and so instinctive, I might almost say, is this conviction, even in the minds of hon. Members opposite, that in a discussion upon the Marriage Bill, on the 13th June, the hon. and learned civilian, the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Dr. Lushington), used these very words: "If a Jew marry agreeably to the usages of his own nation." I bring this example forward, to show that, in the opinion even of the friends of the Jews, of hon. Gentlemen opposite, they not only hold a distinct creed, but are a distinct people. If so, what more reason have we to give them civil power in this country, than to

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naturalise so many Russians or Prussians?—Again, this nation, if true to themselves, and to their own prophetical destiny, can never be identified with us. Upon a former occasion, I quoted some opinions of a Gentleman (whose name was then, I believe, indistinctly heard in the House) from whom I have since received a letter, a passage of it I will read to the House. I allude to the Rabbi Crool. He refers to the prophetic destiny of the Jews, a subject far too high for discussion in this House, but to which, on such a question, I think it not unfitting to make a passing allusion; and after alluding to their present condition, he continues thus: "Suppose a King of England to condemn a person to be transported for a time known only to the King, the person was transported, and an order sent with him to the governor, informing him of the duration of the sentence. In process of time, the governor set free the prisoner. He went further, he made him a citizen: he went still further, he promoted him to a high station in life. The conduct of the governor was reported to the King. Let hon. Gentlemen who support this Bill pass sentence, whether the governor will be found guilty of breaking the command of his King." No one can be so ignorant, Sir, of his own country's history, and the history of the Jews, as not to perceive the events to which these allusions refer. None can require to be informed, that the governor receiving the transported person, is the supreme governor of this country, and that the person transported, signifies the banished, "scattered and peeled," rejected of all nations—the Jews. We believe the Jews to be sentenced to this separation from all nations, for causes with which every man who reads his Bible must be well acquainted; and we are called upon, not merely to set them free, but to make them citizens; and still further, to give them civil power over a Christian Church, and enable them to exercise the duties of Legislators over this Christian nation. I might produce many other passages from the writings of Jews; all concur in the same opinion. To admit the Jews into civil power, and to confer on them the right to legislate for this country, would be inevitably to place them in a situation in which their interests as a nation, would be inconsistent with the interests of the people of this country. To give only one instance;
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Members of this House are often called upon to legislate with respect to the Established Church of this realm, and is it fitting that men, not only strangers to us as a nation, but strangers to us in that which constitutes our peculiar glory, our Christianity, should legislate upon such a subject. I stated upon a former occasion, I do not believe that the great body of the religious Jews in this country participate in the anxiety entertained upon this subject by the political Jews. The answer then was, "wait for petitions;" and certainly my right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, did present, soon after, sundry petitions in favour of the measure. But I believe it will be found, that the priests of the Jews do not join in these petitions; and that they feel it inconsistent with their peculiar situation, to mix themselves up with the temporal affairs of another nation. And the Rabbi Crool uses this language: "I will now turn to my brethren, the Jews, and I say to them, 'suppose that the Bill is passed, and that you are equal in every respect,' you will then say, 'London is our Jerusalem, England is our land of Canaan; we have no need now of another Jerusalem, no need of another Canaan!'" It may be said, indeed, "that is their own affair, let them look to that." But I contend, that to effect a temporal object, you have no right to place them in such a predicament, and to tempt them, for temporal advantage, to neglect that which they feel to be their spiritual privilege. In the present state of the House, whatever I might feel inclined to say, it would be useless now. It is quite evident that the subject does not excite that interest which so great a change in the institutions of the country ought to excite. I consider it as a measure which, without producing the benefits which my right hon. Friend anticipates, will be followed by more serious consequences than he imagines. I impute no motives—I appeal to him with the perfect confidence, that however widely we may differ on questions of public policy, we agree on that which is vastly superior to the most weighty of earthly considerations. I am sure he must feel reluctance in expunging from the declarations which the Members of this House take, those emphatic words, by which they solemnly profess their Christianity, and their accountability to the God of the Christians, for the care which they shall take over his

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Church and his people in this land. With these feelings, Sir, I move as an amendment, "That this Bill be read a second time this day six months."
Colonel Sibthorpthought it was almost impossible that any Minister of the Crown could have brought forward such a measure in such a thin House, but he believed that he should not discharge his duty unless he moved that the House be counted.
The House was counted, but forty Members were present.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad repeatedly postponed the measure at the suggestion of his hon. Friend opposite, and was, therefore, surprised that complaints should be made that it was brought forward in such a thin House. He denied that there was anything in the measure which was opposed to the spirit of the Christian religion. If such could be the case, the injury had already been done, because a bill of the same character had already received the sanction of large majorities in former Sessions of Parliament. The feeling out of doors was decidedly friendly to the principle of the measure, and the cities of London, Liverpool, Worcester, Leeds, Portsmouth, Edinburgh, &c, had petitioned in its favour. His hon. Friend said the Jews were a nation apart from this, but what had made them so? The barbarous policy that had been pursued towards them. He was anxious to make England their country and their home. He fervently hoped the decision of the House on this occasion would show, that the Commons of England were anxious to get rid of this last remnant of intolerance, by admitting all classes of his Majesty's faithful subjects to the rights, immunities, and advantages of the Constitution under which they lived.
Mr. Forsteropposed the Bill, contending that all attempts to incorporate the Jews with a Christian nation must ultimately prove abortive; London could never be made their Jerusalem. He had been a supporter of Catholic emancipation, but that question rested on different grounds from that of the Jews. He remembered on the discussion of that question, a predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman in the chair had expressed a hope that the time might never come when this country would cease to be constitutionally Protestant. He hoped that the time might not come when it would cease to be constitutionally Christian. He opposed the motion.
Mr. W. Rochewould give his support to the Bill on principle, and also from personal feeling. He supported it on principle, because he thought that every British subject was entitled to equal rights and privileges; and he supported it from personal feeling because as a Roman Catholic he had long felt the injustice of his own exclusion from many civil rights, and he would not refuse to a fellow-subject that right which as such a subject he had at length obtained himself.
Mr. A. Trevoropposed the Bill, not as a member of the Church of England, or any particular sect, but as a member of the Church of Christ. He also objected to the discussion of a measure of such importance in so thin an attendance, as to be scarcely enough to constitute a House. It ought to have been reserved until every Member should have an opportunity of expressing his opinion on it. As many Members were elected since the Bill was last in the House, their constituents should first have an opportunity of stating their opinions on it.
Mr. Benettsupported the Bill. If it was considered so important why did not hon. Members attend who intended to oppose it? The Jews were good and loyal subjects, and were fully entitled to equal privileges with all other British subjects. He strongly objected to mixing civil rights with religious opinions.
Mr. Finchhad no wish to mix up politics and religion; but as Members of that House had to decide on matters relating to the Christian church, and to Christianity generally, he did not think that a Jew would be fit to take a part in such deliberations. There was a great difference between civil rights, and civil privileges. He would extend civil rights to the Jews but he considered that he did them no injustice in refusing them the privilege of being eligible to sit in Parliament. He did not believe that the people of this country were at all in favour of the measure, and on these grounds he would oppose it.
Mr. Pottersaid, that the question was purely political in its character, and ought not to be considered with reference to religious creeds. The time was come when the civil disabilities of the Jews ought to be removed.
Mr. Hardyhad been asked by his constituents upon the hustings, whether, if returned, he would vote against the Bill or not;

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and he declared, that he would certainly vote against it, and he was returned by a larger majority than had returned him before. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had argued the question like a Deist. The supposition of a Providence was not the doctrine of the people of England. Was it for the possession of civil privileges that they supported the Established Church, or did they not rather support it that the people might learn from its ministers, as the oracles of God, those means by which their eternal salvation was to be secured? He complained of this Bill, not because it removed disabilities, but because it conferred abilities at variance with the Constitution of the country, and incompatible with the principles by which that Constitution was governed. They were excluded from political privileges, because, if they were sincere and conscientious, they must feel bound to do that which was at variance with the interests of the Protestant Church. He felt bound to give the measure his fullest and most earnest opposition.
Mr. Rundlewould support the Bill, because he thought laws which excluded any man from the enjoyment of civil rights on account of his religious opinions were opposed to the spirit of Christianity.
Mr. Plumptrewould not go over the ground which had been taken up by his hon. Friends who opposed this Bill, but would content himself with saying, that he felt bound to support the Christian Constitution of the country, and, considering this Bill to be a direct insult to that Constitution, he should vote against it.
Mr. Borthwickwas ready to admit, that persecution was contrary to the spirit of Christianity, but the question came before the House in quite another shape. Christianity was an element of the civil polity of the realm, and though Roman Catholics had been admitted as Members of that House, that was no argument in favour of the Jews, inasmuch as both Protestants and Catholics drew their faith from the same source, but the Jews denied the very God in whom the others believed. If the Jews were admitted to legislate for the country, there would be, at once, an end to the connexion with the Christian religion as an element of the Constitution. What was the question? Was it not whether a Bill should be passed to disunite for ever the religion and politics of the British Government, and to destroy the great principles in which the
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people were educated from their youth, and which bound them together under the name of Christians, from the King downwards? He thought the Jews themselves would not consider the success of the Bill any great advantage to them; and he believed that no sincere Jew could occupy a seat in that House without feeling that he had insurmountable difficulties to encounter in the whole of his progress as a legislator for a Christian country.
Mr. Brothertoncould not give a silent vote on the present occasion. He declared that he would place more confidence in a man who did not profess to believe in a particular doctrine, than in one who professed to be a Christian, and yet lived in a manner that was dishonourable to his profession. He thought that the man who was willing to devote his life, property, and talents to the benefit of his fellow men, ought not to be deprived of his civil rights and privileges, which would enable him to fulfil his intentions, because he did not happen to agree with others on certain doctrines. Believing the Christ an religion to be one of pure charity and humanity, he should support the Bill.
The House divided:—Ayes 39; Noes 22: Majority 17.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Morrisson, J.

Bagshaw, John

O'Brien, Cornelius

Baldwin, Dr.

Parker, John

Barnard, E. G.

Philips, Mark

Benett, J.

Rice, right hon. T. S.

Blamire, W.

Robinson, G.

Bowes, John

Roche, William

Brabazon, Sir W.

Rundle, J.

Brady, Denis, C.

Ruthven, E.

Brocklehurst, J.

Scholefield, Joshua

Brotherton, J.

Thompson, Alderman

Butler, hon. Pierce

Thornley, T.

Crawford, W. S.

Tooke, W.

Duncombe, T. S.

Wallace, Robert

Heathcoat, John

Warburton, H.

Hindley, C.

Wigney, Isaac N.

Hodges, T. L.

Williams, W.

Hodgson, J.

Wood, Alderman

Horsman, E.

TELLERS.

Howard, P. H.

Potter, Richard

Lushington, Charles

Baines, Edward

List of the NOES.

Ashley, Lord

Jones, Theobald

Brownrigg, J. S.

Lowther, Col. H. C.

Duffield, Thomas

Maunsell, T. P.

Forbes, Wm.

Pigot, Robert

Forster, Charles S.

Plumptre, J. P.

Hardy, J.

Richards, R.

Henniker, Lord

Sibthorp, Col.

Inglis, Sir R. H., bt.

Stormont, Lord

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Trevor, hon. A.

Williams, Robert

Vere, Sir C. bt.

Vesey, hon. T.

TELLERS.

Welby, G. E.

Finch, George

Whitmore, Thomas C.

Borthwick, Peter

Bill read a second time.

BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS.
On the motion that the House do go into Committee on this Bill,
Colonel Sibthorpwas unwilling to interrupt the business of the House, but opposed as he was to this Bill, he felt it to be his duty to move, as an amendment, that this Bill be committed this day six months.
Mr. A. Trevoropposed the Bill. He did not consider that any benefit could be derived from a Bill of this description. He was assured that such a Bill could never pass, or if passed, could never come into operation while they had 10 l. voters as the consequence of the Reform Bill. Bribery, he was certain, must continue to exist so long as they had such constituents as the 10 l. voters of Wapping, the Minories, and Rag-Fair. Nothing, in his opinion, could be more disadvantageous than the uniformity of franchise established by the Reform Bill.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that this was not a Government measure. It had been brought forward by an hon. Gentleman who differed from the Government; and as the object of the Bill was to prevent bribery, it was his duty to support it. Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who said they were willing to prevent bribery, showed, however, that they had no desire to improve or amend the law. As to what an hon. Gentleman had said of the 10 l. constituency of Wapping, the Minories, and Rag Fair, he trusted that it would be remembered that there was the same class of constituents in Durham and Lincoln.
Mr. Forbes Mr. Forbes moved, that the House be counted.
Forty Members being present, the business proceeded.
Alderman Wooddeclared, that in London the poorest constituents never asked, and never received, a shilling for their -votes, and never were paid for the time lost y them in exercising of their franchise.
Mr. Forbesconsidered, that he had every right to use his privilege as a Member of that House when he found a question of such vast importance discussed amongst a
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few Members. His great objection to the Bill was, that if adopted the poor outvoters could not exercise their privileges. It was in his opinion most unfair to state, that those who opposed this Bill were favourable to bribery.
Mr. Prymesaid, he could not see why Members who came down to the House should be prevented entering upon the business of the day, because others chose to absent themselves—why A, B, and C, should not be allowed to do their duties because X, Y, and Z were not there to join them.
The House divided on the original question:—Ayes 37; Noes 2: Majority 35.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H.

O'Brien, C.

Alston, R.

Parker, John

Baines, E.

Rice, rt. hon. T. S.

Baldwin, Dr.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Bannerman, Alex.

Rundle, John

Bish, T.

Ruthven, E. S.

Blamire, W.

Scholefield, J.

Borthwick, P.

Thompson, Ald.

Brabazon, Sir W.

Thornley, T.

Brotherton, J.

Tooke, William

Brownrigg, S.

Wakley, T.

Crawford, W.

Wallace, R.

Duncombe, T. S.

Warburton, H.

Ewart, W.

Ward, Henry George

Ferguson, rt. hon. C.

Williams, W. A.

Forster, C. S.

Wood, Matthew

Hall, B.

Hardy, J.

TELLERS.

Heathcote, J.

Horsman, E.

Howard, H. P.

Hawes, B.

List of the NOES.

Forbes, W.

TELLERS.

Lowther, Col.

Trevor, hon. A.

Sibthorp, Col.

The House went into Committee, and the Bill went through a Committee. House resumed. Bill to be reported.

MEDICAL WITNESSES.
Mr. Wakley Mr. Wakley moved the third reading of the Medical Witnesses Bill.
Colonel Sibthorp Colonel Sibthorp, moved as an amendment, the adjournment of the House.
The House divided on the amendment:—Ayes 4; Noes 32: Majority 28.
The Bill read a third time.
On the question, that a clause exempting Scotland from the operation of the Bill, be brought up.
Colonel Sibthorp Colonel Sibthorp moved, that its further consideration be postponed to that day three months.
Mr. A Trevorseconded the motion.
The House again divided:—Ayes 0; Noes 36: Majority 36.
The clause was brought up and agreed to. Bill passed.