Commons Sitting of 11 April 1836

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Revenue Departments Securities.—Read a second time:—Bankrupts' (Ireland); Alien Registration.
Petitions presented. By Colonel THOMPSON, from Kingston-upon-Hull, in favour of Mr. BUCKINGHAM'S Claims—By several Members, from various Places, for the Better Observance of the Lord's Day.—By several MEMBERS, from various Places, for the Repeal of the Duty on Newspapers.—By Mr. HAWES, from St. Marylebone, for the Alteration of the Poor-Law Amendment Act.—By several MEMBERS, from the Licensed Victuallers of various Places, for the Repeal of the Duty on Spirit Licences.—By Mr. BARNARD, from Woolwich, for the Abolition of Corporal Punishment in the Army and Navy.—By several MEMBERS, from the Medical Profession of various Places, for Remuneration for Attending Coroners' Inquests—By Mr. WILES, from Haddenham, for the Abolition of Church Rates.—By Mr. JOHN MAXWELL, from Calder and Cambuslang, for the Alteration of the Law of Statute Labour (Scotland); and from certain Handloom Weavers, for Relief.—By Mr. DIVETT, from the Carriers of Devon, for a Repeal of the Duty on Carriers' Carts.

SUPPLY—ORDNANCE.
Lord John Russell moved the Order of the Day for a Committee of Supply, and the House resolved itself into Committee.
Sir Andrew Leith Haysaid, that in bringing under the consideration of the House the Ordnance estimates for the
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year, it would not be necessary for him to detain them by any very lengthened preliminary details. The estimates had been framed in conformity with those of former years. They had been carefully examined, and he believed all the circumstances connected in the first place with efficiency, and secondly with economy, had been considered and acted upon in this year's estimates. The estimate for the present year was 52,610 l. less than that of last year. This diminution had arisen from various causes, which would be ascertained by a reference to the items. But the credits for last year, which amounted to 200,000 l., were decreased in the estimate now proposed, by 20,000 l., consequently the sum to be voted, instead of being 52,610 l. less than that of last year, would only be 32,610 l. less. In adverting to the different items which it would be his duty to bring before the House, he should refer, in the first place, to the vote called for for the store department. The amount last year was not so great as that for which it was intended to call on the House on the present occasion, by 10,000 l. but that was the aggregate, and included the sum of 20,000 l. for small arms, whereas the sum required last year for that purpose was only 5,000 l. It bad been considered necessary to increase the sum providing for small arms, in consequence of the absolute necessity of filling up the stores with a superior class of arms, and keeping those necessary and proper for the exigencies of the public service, and issuing to the troops arms of a better and more serviceable description. The estimate of the present year for stores was 75,000 l., while that for last year had been 65,000 l.; but the sum to be voted was in fact 5,000 l. less than in the preceding year for the general supply of stores. The Commissariat Supplies of last year as compared with this amounted to a much greater sum, in consequence of the variation in the price of forage for the Cavalry. The price of forage last year had been considerably higher than it was at present, and a diminution of the expenditure to the amount of 19,666 l. would take place in this particular item. In the present estimate there was an increase under the head of the unprovided, in consequence of completing an alteration suggested for purposes of economy, and now carried into effect—the removal of the great stores in Tooley-street to the Tower. That removal had now been accomplished,

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but it had occasioned in the unprovided branch of the estimates a very considerable excess in consequence of sums formerly voted not having met the exigences of the service for which they were granted. The removing [of the stores in Tooley-street, and preparing a store-house in the Tower for their reception, and for purposes necessary to the service, had cost the public the sum of 8,705 l. Government had held the lease of the store in Tooley-street for an unexpired term of years. That lease had been sold, and the proceeds had been 10,150 l., fully covering all the expenses occasioned by the transfer, and a sum of 3,300 l. annual rent would be saved to the public. There was another item which formed a very considerable feature in the estimate of the year, namely, the expense of the surveys of Great Britain and Ireland. The sum taken for the survey of Great Britain last year was 10,500 l.; that proposed now to be applied to that object was 13,000 l., making an excess of 2,500 l. This was called for by an application which had been made to hasten the progress of the survey, and, if possible, to terminate it in a shorter time than had been previously intended. The sum to be set apart for the survey of Ireland was exactly similar to that of last year, amounting to 40,000 l. He felt satisfied that if there were any scientific work that had done honour to this country, that would be serviceable for all the purposes of local legislation, and for those objects connected with the interests and improvement of the country, it was the survey of Great Britain and Ireland. The officer who had the charge of superintending it (Mr. Goldby) was a person of the highest scientific attainments, and had conducted it in a mode creditable to himself. He was satisfied that when completed, it would reflect honour on the country, and would place science on a footing it had not hitherto occupied. The maintenance of the barrack accommodation throughout the United Kingdom naturally formed a great item in the estimate, and he had the satisfaction to state, that the saving effected this year, as compared with the last, amounted to 16,790 l., notwithstanding the expenses incurred owing to the losses caused by the hurricane which took place in the West Indies. The repairs thereby rendered necessary had amounted to 4,152 l., which must be considered as an entirely accidental expense. Therefore,
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the saving on the barrack expenditure, including the repairs and support of the buildings, was 20,942 l. He would now state to the House what he thought it would be interesting to show—that the Board of Ordnance, while keeping up the immense buildings necessary for the accommodation of the troops, were carrying on the expenditure with all possible attention to economy. The expenditure now was of a description very different from what it was in former days, and beneficial to the public in point of economy. The barrack expenditure, previously to being placed under the direction of the Ordnance, in 1821, amounted in Great Britain, to 143,809 l., being at the rate of 5l. 5s. 11 d. per man. In 1835 it was 64,118 l., being at the rate of 3l. 9s. 4d. per man. The barrack expenditure in Ireland in 1821 had been conducted on a similar scale. It amounted to 134,838 l., being at the rate of 4l. 11 s. for each man. In 1835 it was only 54,919 l., or 2l. 10 s. 9d. per man. When it was considered that barrack accommodation for the British army in Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies, was constructed for no less than 134,726 men, it would be seen, that as a natural consequence, a great outlay was required to maintain these buildings, particularly where the climates were so different, and where the barracks were liable to be damaged; and he considered, that under the circumstances, the sum now taken was the least possible, and might reasonably be supposed to be absolutely necessary for that particular branch of the service. He had stated briefly to the House some of the items of the estimates, contrasted with those of past years, and he had said, that he considered it unnecessary to trespass then for any very great length of time, but he would call the attention of the House to this particular subject—the absolute necessity of keeping the ordnance establishments of the country in an efficient and serviceable state. He hoped that no subjects connected with economy would ever be considered the primary object when the importance of that great branch of the defences of the country, and the necessity of providing the troops with commissariat supplies, were taken into consideration. He felt satisfied that the House, on the present occasion, would support this branch of the public service, and vote those supplies which they (Ministers) believed absolutely necessary, which they

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would not seek if they did not consider so, and which they supposed the House would have no objection to grant, in order that this branch of the public service might be carried on with credit to the country, with efficiency in present circumstances, with the certainty of being efficient in the event of a war breaking out, and of being able to maintain the honour of the Crown. The hon. Member concluded by moving the different votes, which were severally agreed to without observation.
The House resumed.

THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
Sir Robert Peel, seeing the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, rose to put a question to him respecting the exhibition of the plans for the new Houses of Parliament. He had received several communications which made him believe that considerable dissatisfaction was felt upon the subject on two grounds—first, that architects were specifically excluded from permission to inspect the successful plans. He had received a letter from a very eminent architect who applied to be admitted: he had gone with a friend, who was allowed to enter, but being himself asked if he were an architect, and the answer being in the affirmative, he was excluded, as he was told, by the express orders of the Woods and Forests Department. Unless some good reason could be assigned, this exclusion, to say the least of it, seemed ungenerous. The other ground of complaint was, that the plans of the successful candidates were not exhibited with the others. He had understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the successful plans should be sent with the others for exhibition in the building intended for the National Gallery. It was easy to see why the plan that had been eminently successful—that of Mr. Barry—could not yet be exhibited, because it might be necessary to retain it for the purpose of forming the estimates of the expense of carrying it into execution; but he could not see why the three others next in merit should not have been sent for exhibition with the others. Unless they were sent at an early period, it seemed likely that the public attention would be exhausted, and he therefore hoped, that some means would be adopted, that the three less successful plans would be exhibited according to their original intention.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in
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reply to the second question of the right hon. Baronet, was able to state (having received a communication from his noble Friend at the head of the department of Woods and Forests), that he had himself been disposed to think, in the first instance, that there would be no inconveniences in sending the three less successful plans for exhibition; but his noble Friend had been of opinion that until the Committees of the two Houses had finally determined what should be done—the approval of Mr. Barry's plan being only provisional—he had no right to part with the custody of them. On Monday next he believed the Committees resumed their sittings; and perhaps it was not too much to anticipate, that, at one meeting, the preliminary point might be settled, and then the three plans might be exhibited on Tuesday or Wednesday, and soon afterwards an engraved copy of Mr. Barry's plan might be placed with them in the collection. He was not so well prepared to reply to the first question of the right hon. Baronet; he did not know on what grounds professional men were excluded from an inspection of the successful plans, but the rule laid down might possibly be founded upon the alarm of the architects, lest sketches should be made of their plans, and an unauthorised publication made of their designs. On some former occasion, an incident of this sort had occurred, and it was more likely to arise out of the inspection of professional than non-professional men. It did not, however, seem a matter of importance, inasmuch as next week all the plans would probably be publicly exhibited.
Mr. Hawesknew, that architects had been excluded, and not only architects generally, but particular architects by name. He did not think that any rule for the exclusion of professional men should have been adopted, but if it were adopted, it ought at least to be general, and not particular. He did not see why the four plans should be in the hands of the Woods and Forests; they ought rather to be in the custody of the Committee. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken of an engraved copy of Mr. Barry's plan, and he (Mr. Hawes) wished to know whether it was an engraving of the original plan, or of the plan as it had been cut down for the estimate? The original plan, it should be recollected, had been departed from. He did not say that the public had been treated with disrespect,

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but perhaps two-thirds of those who were likely to visit the National Gallery had been there already, and the object of the exhibition had, therefore, been so far defeated.
Mr. Humehad received a letter from an architect, who had been anxious to see the approved plans. This was the fifth or sixth time the subject had been mentioned, and the expectation held out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, about three weeks ago, had been disappointed. He did not know why the three less successful plans had been kept back, and it was very natural that the public, which paid for them, should feel a curiosity to inspect them. They had a right to see all, and they would not be fairly dealt with if Mr. Barry's plan were exhibited with any of the leading features altered. The original, as approved by the Commissioners, ought to be placed in the National Gallery.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that the Committee had not yet finally decided, and until they had decided, the noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests had no right to deal with the plans; by parting with them the Commissioners might be deprived of the means of carrying into effect the directions of the Committees. He had formerly pledged himself that before the House came to its ultimate determination on the plan to be adopted, they should all be exhibited, and to that undertaking he still adhered.
Sir Robert Peeladded, that exclusion gave an artificial importance and mystery to the affair; he could see no good reason why all the world should not be allowed to inspect at least three of the plans, reserving Mr. Barry's as necessary to the formation of the estimate; when that was completed it ought to be shown with the others.
Subject dropped.

STATUE OF KING WILLIAM.
Sir G. Sinclair: I rise, Sir, for the purpose of asking what line of conduct his Majesty's Government intend to pursue in consequence of that gross outrage which has been committed in Dublin, against the statue of King William, against the statue of that monarch of "glorious, pious, and immortal memory," and who has ever been held in the highest veneration by those who are the lovers of religious liberty.
Lord Morpeth: As yet, Sir, I have received no official details on the subject.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
Mr. Humesaid, he was accidentally not present when the Army Estimates were moved, but he should not lose the opportunity of adverting to the subject on the bringing up of the Report, because he thought it of essential importance to know what the Government was doing with regard to that department. The right hon. Gentleman on this side of the House proposed a change last year, in which the noble Lord concurred; and he understood that in consequence of what then took place, a Commission was appointed to inquire into the civil establishment of the Ordnance, with the view, he presumed, of carrying into effect the amalgamation of the Ordnance and engineers with the Commander-in-chief's department. By this arrangement he believed that no less than 300,000 l. per annum would be saved to the public. The present was a most wasteful and extravagant system. He wished to know whether that inquiry had made any progress, and whether it was proceeding?
Viscount Howickwould repeat what he had stated on a former occasion, viz.—that the inquiry was in progress. It was, however, a subject of great difficulty. When the Commission, of which he had the honour of being a Member, was appointed, they found a scale of some alterations which had been made by a former Commission, of which the right hon. Baronet was a member. Considerable evidence had been gone into on the subject; but much more was necessary. During this sitting of Parliament it was not possible to proceed with the inquiry as rapidly as might be desired; but they were making progress as fast as, under the circumstances, was practicable, and he hoped before the end of the Session to be able to lay the Report of the Commission upon the Table of the House. With reference to that part of the observations of the hon. Gentleman which related to his extravagance, he must express his regret that the hon. Gentleman was not present when his hon. and gallant Friend brought the Ordnance estimates under the consideration of the House. Whenever the hon. Gentleman revived the subject, his hon. and gallant Friend would no doubt be prepared to meet him.
On the Motion of Viscount Howick, the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply.

SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.
On Viscount Howick proposing a vote of 13,764 l. 15 s. 8d. for the charge of the Royal Military Asylum, and of the Hibernian Military School.
Mr. Humeexpressed his disapprobation of the system which was pursued in reference to these institutions, and he was sorry to see the Government not disposed to follow the course which had been commenced by their predecessors in office—viz., that of gradually reducing, and eventually giving them up altogether. It was his opinion, that the expense which was incurred in the support of these schools, was no way proportionate to the good which they effected; he believed that, by sending the children to some part of the country where they might be boarded and placed under proper superintendence, twice the good would be accomplished at half the expense at present incurred. He observed, there was no less a sum than 1,860 l. in the estimate for salaries to officers; and then there was the immense sum of 4,500 l. for other expenses. He was persuaded, that half this might be saved; and the costly building which they at present occupied, might be converted to some purpose of public utility. But, even supposing it were advisable that the system should be carried on, he disapproved of the mode of management which Government intended to pursue. He perceived that the scholars were to be limited to a certain number; and thus, whatever the noble Secretary at War might fix upon as the proper number for enjoying the benefit of the schools, some must be excluded, and thus injustice would be done. Either the system ought altogether to be abandoned, or it ought not to be thus limited in its operations.
Vote agreed to.
Upon the question that 106,211 l. 6s. 8d. be granted for the charge of Volunteer Corps,
Mr. Humesaid, he would put a question to the noble Secretary at War, and to his Majesty's Government, which was this—was it really their intention to keep up the yeomanry and volunteer corps? He had, during the last Session, presented several petitions from the county of Fife, against keeping up this description of force in a time of peace; his belief was, that they were only so kept up to imtimidate and insult the labouring classes of the community. On several occasions he had expressed his objections to this corps; and,
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for the last three years, he had taken the sense of the House upon it; he should do so in the present instance, and see whether or not the voice of the country would be listened to.
Viscount Howickwas firmly convinced, that the yeomanry and volunteer corps of the country had never been used for party purposes. He believed that they were of great use to the country, inasmuch as they were available corps, and supported at a very small expense. He could state, of his own knowledge, that, in several instances, when called upon to act, they had done so with the greatest advantage to the public. His hon. Friend, the Member for Middlesex, would recollect that a great reduction had taken place in the Militia staff in the last year, and he thought it a politic measure to keep up these corps under such circumstances. They were volunteers, and, in point of fact, were no real burthen on the community at large, while they were a most useful and available force.
The Committee divided on the Resolution: Ayes 53; Noes 9: Majority 44.

A List of the NOES. (Not official.)

Chapman, M. L.

Tulk, C. A.

Lushington, C.

Whalley, Sir S.

Molesworth, Sir W.

Williams, William

Sheldon, E. R. C.

Thompson, Colonel

TELLER.

Thornely, Thos.

Hume, Joseph

Vote agreed to.
Viscount Howick: in moving that 25,000 l. be granted for the maintenance and clothing of two companies of Mounted Riflemen at the Cape of Good Hope, stated, that they were only raised for temporary purposes.
Mr. Humeobjected to the vote. He considered that they should have some information as to the calamitous occurrences which had recently taken place at the Cape. Although some information could be procured, by means of the Committee moved for by the hon. Member for Weymouth, still he did not think that they should be able to obtain the whole truth, until Commissioners were sent out to examine upon the spot into all the facts. It was of importance not only to the colonists themselves, but also to the interests of England, that the causes which led to such calamities should be inquired into.
The vote was agreed to. On the question, that the Chairman report progress,
General Sharpewished to ask the noble Lord a question, with respect to an appointment that he was sure would create great uneasiness in that part of his Majesty's army, who were employed in India. He alluded to the individual who had been engaged in the Company's service; he still retained the rank of Captain in the Company's service, and he was gazetted as Major-General, he (General Sharpe) thought in February last. Such an appointment, he considered, was calculated to outrage the feelings of officers, and he knew nothing more calculated than it to produce a collision. The appointment that he referred to, was that of Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Henry Bethune, in the employment of Persia, and gazetted as a Major-General in Asia. He hoped that was a mistake for Asia Minor or Persia. He merely now called the attention of the noble Lord to the subject, and wished to receive an answer respecting it.
Viscount Howickrequested the hon. and gallant Officer to put the question when his right hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Control, was in the House.
The House resumed.

STAMP DUTIES.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the second reading of this Bill.
Mr. Humestated, that he had received communications asserting that the present consolidation would be found as oppressive as that which Mr. Goulburn had brought in. He had not himself seen the schedule; but he was told that in many cases it would aggravate the pressure of taxation. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would inquire into the subject; for he believed there must be some mistake. Certainly the gentleman from whom he received the letter was one upon whose judgment and experience he was disposed to place every reliance. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give full time for having the details examined into.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad already observed, that he only wished that the Bill should be now read a second time that evening. His intention was to postpone the Committee until the 29th of the present month, and this for the purpose of affording all parties, in and out of the House, full time for considering the Bill. If persons were to take up par-
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ticular parts of the Bill, if they were to look to some duties, an increase might be shown. In one particular branch of duties, those on conveyances, for instance, he had no doubt but an increase might be shown; but, in such cases, the increase would be upon those duties that were unjustly low. The fate of the Bill ought not to be determined by the consideration of whether certain duties were increased; but let the House decide whether the ad valorem principle was a just one or not. When they decided that in the affirmative, it was in vain to exclaim against a particular tax. The Bill was intended to remove an inequality of pressure: it could not do that without pressing in some degree upon those who were now too lightly taxed. The Bill was intended to apportion justly that which was now unjustly distributed. He begged to say, that he had received a great many valuable suggestions, particularly from Members of the legal profession. He should give the earliest intimation of any alterations intended to be made in the Bill.
Mr. William Smith O'Brienwished that the right hon. Gentleman would take this opportunity of announcing something calculated to allay the ferment that prevailed in Ireland with respect to the stamp duties on newspapers. The demand in Ireland was, that the stamp duty should be reduced one-half what it was intended to be in England, as it is at this moment.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas, he said, unwilling to discuss a question now, which would be so much better postponed to a future stage. For his own part he begged to say, that he thought the arguments used on the part of his Irish friends on this subject, were quite untenable. The Irish newspapers were to be conveyed post-free. Upon this point he would also call the attention of those who demanded an entire repeal of the stamp-duty upon newspapers, that supposing the repeal were to take place, and they followed up the argument used in favour of the Irish newspapers, having repealed the whole amount of the duty in England, they would be bound to pay a bounty to the Irish newspapers. He would take the opportunity to notice, that his proposition had been subjected to gross misrepresentation. It had been said, that it amounted to the same thing as the proposition for raising the stamp-

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duty to 4d. in both countries—a proposition that he had resisted; that was a proposition for doubling the amount of stamp-duty, while his was one for reducing it one-half.
Bill read a second time.