Commons Sitting of 29 August 1835

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Stamp and Assessed Taxes.
Petitions presented. By Mr. Sergeant JACKSON, from Larah and Druny, for Revision of the Registration of Voters (Ireland); from Cavan, against the Constabulary Force (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. SANDERSON, from Colchester, and Sir JOHN RAE REID, from Dover, and Mr. CODRINGTON, from Stafford, to maintain the Privileges of the House of Lords.—By Mr. WODEHOUSE, from the Agriculturists of Diss (Norfolk) for Relief.—By Sir JACOB ASTLEY, from two Places, against the Additional Duty on Spirit Licences; from Shropham, against a Clause in the Poor-Law Amendment Act.—By Sir G. STRICKLAND, Mr. BLAMIRE, Mr. R, STEWART, and Dr. BOWRING, from a Number of Places,—for passing the Municipal Corporations' Bill unmutilated. — By Mr. CODRINGTON, from Places in Gloucestershire, against being united under the Poor-Law Amendment Act—By Viscount MORPETH, from two Places, for Remitting the Sentence on the Dorchestsr Labourers; from Welsden, against Drunkenness: from Thornhill, in favour of the Irish Church Bill; from Aughagour, for a greater Number of Representatives for Ireland; from Sheffield, in favour of the Imprisonment for Debt Bill; from Dublin, for Amending the Dublin Valuation Act.

NAVIGATION OF THE SHANNON.
The House resolved itself into a Committee on the River Shannon Navigation Improvement Bill.
Mr. Potterdid not know whether the right hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was aware of the objections which had been urged against this Bill by his hon. Friend the Member for Bridport. His hon. Friend complained, that in a measure which merely appointed Commissioners to prepare estimates for the improvement of the navigation of this river, a provision should have been introduced to raise by loan one half the amount which might be required for the work. In that objection he entirely concurred; and, instead of the Government advancing any portion of this money, he conceived that the whole sum should be made a charge on the Irish counties connected with the Shannon, and raised in them by means of assessments. He did not consider that the security for this advance ought to satisfy that House.
Mr. Lynchsaid, that the security for the repayment of the loan was as good as could be given.
Mr. Prymeagreed in the objections stated by the hon. Member for Wigan, and he could not tell why a Clause empowering the House to grant a loan should have been

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thought necessary at that early stage. He would ask, to what public works in England had such donations been given? He did not object to grants being made for the improvement of Ireland, but let equal justice be done to England. He would suggest, that all that part of the preamble should be omitted, and leave it to Parliament to make the grant hereafter if they thought proper.
Mr. Wallacesaid, that there had been a sum of money voted for Portpatrick harbour which might very well be dispensed with, and given to the deepening of the Shannon, or any other useful national purpose. Laying it out at Portpatrick, was in plain English, throwing it into the sea—it was throwing away good money after bad; and he would therefore move, on bringing up the Appropriation Clause, that no more money be expended on Portpatrick harbour.
Mr. Warburtondid not object to making the grant, but the present Bill was merely for the purpose of appointing Commissioners to obtain an estimate of the expense, and the introduction of such a Clause in it was premature. He put it to the right hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) whether he could cite any precedent for such a proceeding? It was pledging the House to advance the sum necessary for carrying on these works, whatever that sum might be. There were various conditions necessary to be entered into with the proprietors, and the Government could make a better bargain if the grant was not previously made. The hon. Member concluded by moving the omission of that part of the preamble which authorized the grant.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwould state the grounds on which this preamble was framed, in order most particularly to meet the objections of the hon. Member for Bridport, to whose authority on these subjects he was disposed, both in and out of the House, to pay the most respectful attention. This Bill was introduced in consequence of several repeated inquiries by Committees of that House, but the Bill did not carry out to their full effect the recommendations of those Committees. He did not propose to the House to do this, and if it had been proposed by others he would not have approved of it. The recommendation of the Committee was, that there should be a vote of public money for this purpose—absolutely pledging the House not only to the principle, but to a
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vote of public money for the adoption of the principle, before they had a satisfactory plan and estimates, and, above all, before arrangements were made with the parties locally interested, in order to protect the public against undue, excessive, or extortionate claims, which would be a bar to the undertaking altogether. It was recommended by the Committee that the money should be advanced; but to that recommendation he entirely dissented. He would not ask the House to advance one single farthing, except for the expenses that must be incurred by reason of inquiry. The Bill did not pledge the House to the advance of any money; all it pledged the House to was, that in the event of there being a satisfactory plan and estimates, and in the absence of all unreasonable local demands, the money should be hereafter advanced. The question was, whether the Crown, in its individual capacity, being a party to the undertaking, which could not be effected without the interposition of the House, and the Crewn having no right to impose the onus upon individuals who had neither the means nor the power to execute the work, that House was disposed to adopt the principle of the Bill by saying, that if the parties locally interested would provide one-half of the expense, and a proper plan were laid before Parliament, they would be disposed to give the other half. His hon. Friend, the Member for Bridport said, there had been no similar cases. He could assure him that there had been innumerable such cases. There was the case of the river Barrow, and of the Cam; but the present was a special case. A very considerable portion of the navigation of the Shannon belonged to the Crown, and they were annually voting sums of money for the imperfect maintenance of the navigation of that river. [Mr. Pryme: How does it belong to the Crown?] It was vested in the Crown by the laws of the land. There were, as he had said before, several precedents. He would not speak of the Caledonian canal, which, he believed, was a failure; but there was the Highland roads and bridges, the interposition of Parliament in which case, according to Mr. Telford, was the means of advancing Scotland a hundred years in civilization. There was also the Holyhead road, the Menai-bridge, and the Plymouth Breakwater, and various other cases in which that House had interposed. They could not expect that the parties would submit to a proposition for pledging the county

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rates for the repayment of this money unless that House pledged itself to the principle, and to advance the money if a good, case were made out. On these grounds he prayed the House to allow the Bill to remain in its present state. He had done his duty in proposing the Bill—he had done his duty by the Committee and by the public; and he hoped the House would enable him to treat with the parties in Ireland, with whom he could treat effectively if they saw that House disposed to entertain a favourable view of the present case.
Sir Frederick Trenchsaid, that the Bill should also have his support because he knew it would confer a very great benefit on not less than two millions of persons who resided on the banks of the Shannon, but who had never seen a suit of new clothes in their lives. The population of the country along the line of the banks of the Shannon were in a state of heart-rending distress.
Mr. O'Connellobserved, that the hon. and gallant Officer laboured under some mistake. The people to whom he alluded might have seen the new clothes of the police and the soldiers; they might also have seen the hon. and gallant Officer himself; and, if so, they must not only have seen new clothes, but clothes cut in the highest and newest style of fashion. He challenged the hon. Member for Scarborough to state what interest the people of Ireland had ever derived from their connexion with England. Their debt had been increased in consequence; and up to the commencement of the existence of the present Administration he defied any hon. Member to show any act that had been done for the good of Ireland. Ireland was perhaps the most fertile country in the world, and yet what was the general state of the inhabitants? They were in a state of the greatest misery, owing to bad laws. The present Ministry were anxious to do all they could to alleviate the distresses of that unhappy country, but what was the use of that when a sort of stop-gap existed elsewhere? If he were told that but for England his country could not find a market for its provisions, what would be his reply? Why, that but for Ireland this country would be without a market for its manufactures. The people of Ireland were a patient people, and he only wished his voice were loud enough to be heard elsewhere, in order that he might beg that their patience should be considered, and their grievances
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redressed. He could not but lament that at this late period of the Session they were discussing mere words, for really the alteration proposed by the hon. Member for Bridport amounted literally to nothing. He feared, however, that it proceeded from that begrudging and niggardly spirit which was invariably displayed in that House when the question of advantage to Ireland was the subject under consideration. He admitted, however, with gratitude, that a spirit favourable to Ireland had diffused itself among a majority of that House; but he, at the same time, could not help recollecting that there was a frightful minority who were adverse to everything at all tending to the well-being of Ireland, and who wished to have that country once more delivered up to the tender mercies of the Orange faction, in order that the abuses of which the Irish people so long and so loudly complained might be perpetuated. There was an oligarchy of about 200 persons in another place who would refuse to pass any measure which they deemed beneficial to Ireland; and if their power was not crushed what must the prospect of Ireland be? The people of England owed the people of Ireland a great debt, and he was willing to acknowledge that what tended to the benefit of the one country ought to promote the interest of both, because he did not wish to conceal the fact that if the two kingdoms were rightly governed their interests should be identical. He wished, however, that the system of misrule which had so long existed in Ireland would speedily be put an end to, and, that finally, justice should be done to his country.
Mr. Ewartsaid, that he should give the Bill his warmest and best support. He thought the arguments of the hon. Member for Scarborough were quite inapplicable to the present case; and he trusted, with his hon. Friend the Member for Dublin, that a better feeling would be introduced towards Ireland in another place.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that he should have no objection to withdraw his Amendment, provided the right hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would introduce into the preamble some words which would render it impossible for the Government to call on the House to vote money for this purpose until the estimates were before them.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas willing to accede to the proposition of his hon Friend.
Sir Frederick Trenchwould not make

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any comment on the personal observations made by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin, for that hon. and learned Member was but too prone to indulge in personal sarcasm, which in his case was exceedingly to be regretted. The joke, however, was witless; but, without pursuing the subject farther, he would only observe, that he and the hon. and learned Member for Dublin were agreed in one thing, and that was that the people to whom he alluded were in a state of almost nudity. The hon. and gallant Officer complained that the noble Lord (the Secretary for Ireland) had last night requested the hon. and learned Member for Dublin not to support the Bill, as it would insure its rejection in another place.
Viscount Morpethhad been led to make that observation in consequence of a very grave debate which had occurred in another place, and which had reached him through the ordinary channels.
An Amendment was made in the preamble, the several Clauses were agreed to, and the House resumed.

THE IRISH CLERGY—TITHE INSTAL- MENTS.
The Chancellor of the Exchequermeant to occupy the House only for a short period, while he explained the object of the Bill which it was his intention to ask leave to introduce. He must, in the first instance, justify himself for introducing such a Bill at this late period of the Session; nor would the Government have taken such a course if a direct and positive necessity for doing so had not been fairly made out. Indeed, they had abstained from exercising their discretion in this respect so long as there remained a chance—so long as the possibility of a hope existed—that the great Question which had occupied so much of the attention of the House during the present Session—he meant the great Question relating to the Irish Church—was likely to be brought to a settlement by a satisfactory Act of the Legislature. Had such an Act been passed, this Bill would of course, have been unnecessary, but now it had become indispensable, because it would be perceived, by the votes of the other House, that no steps were likely to be taken to forward the Irish Church Bill through Parliament during the present Session, and as that Bill had been abandoned, in point of fact, by his Majesty's Government, upon the ground that it would not be satisfactory in its present shape, and as it did not appear, from the minutes of the
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House of Lords, that it filled up the outline, or conformed to the principle laid down in the resolutions which had been acquiesced in by that House, the consequence was, that his Majesty's Government would be acting inconsistently with the declaration which they had made if they were to carry it on in its altered condition. It was not, therefore the intention of the Government to proceed further with this measure, nor did it seem that any steps were likely to be taken by any Member of the other House to advance its progress beyond the stage at which it had arrived. It was thus that the Irish Church Bill stood; but he would not at present go into that Question, as all he wished was merely to call the attention of the House and the country to the situation in which the Government would be left, unless the Bill which he was about to introduce were accepted by that House. They had heard, during the discussions which had taken place in the present Session, much about the lamentable condition of the Irish Clergy. It was said that the Irish Clergy would be reduced to a situation of the most abject misery if they were to be kept out of their incomes but he would ask the House and the country whether their condition would be improved by reason of what had occurred in another place? He would give no opinion himself upon the subject, but leave the question to be answered by futurity. He must say that the House of Commons were bound to do justice to the people of Ireland, and, at the same time, to afford adequate protection to the Clergy of the Established Church. The Ministers had endeavoured to accomplish both these objects, although they had failed in their attempt. By the law as it at present stood, it would be imperative on the Government to put in suit all claims which the Crown had for the recovery of the instalments due under the Million Act by the Irish Clergy. They would be compelled, however reluctantly, to adopt proceedings under that Act against the whole body of the Irish Clergy, even in cases in which they might know that the parties had no means of paying the demand, or that such a step must be taken without any good effect. He, for his part, would not undertake, in his capacity of a Minister of the Crown, the responsibility of not discharging his duty—the responsibility of, in short, suspending the law of the land. If it became necessary to enforce the written law against the Irish Clergy, he could not withhold his sanction from such

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a proceeding, and certainly, unless the Bill which he purposed to introduce were adopted, the Government would be bound to use every exertion in their power to enforce those claims—no matter whether the party had the means of paying or not. The House, however, would agree with him in saying, that it would be not only unjust, but positively oppressive, to enforce the law in such a way in cases in which it could be made to appear that the clergy had not received their incomes, and could not, therefore, be expected to pay. The object of this Bill was, not to remit a single farthing of those claims, but to give the Government authority, in case it could be shown that any individual clergyman was not in a condition to pay, to suspend all proceedings for the instalment due by him until Parliament should have re-assembled again. If this Bill were not passed, the Government would have no alternative but to proceed against every Member of the Irish Church, whether they possessed means to satisfy the demand or not. They would soon learn what was the result of the defeat of the Irish Church Bill; but, at present, all he asked of the House was, to grant to the Government legislative authority or power to abstain from the adoption of legal proceedings against all such individuals as should be proved incapable of paying, for a term extending only to the 5th of April next. He did not mean to propose, that the claims should altogether cease; on the contrary, he intended that the right to enforce their recovery, on the part of the Crown, should again revive in all respects, unless in the mean time a new Bill were brought under consideration, or a grant of public money was obtained to render proceedings unnecessary. The power which Government sought by this Bill might be called a dispensing power; and he trusted that those whom he had the honour to address would not only perceive that the proposition was a just and reasonable one, but admit that they, and those who acted in connexion with them, had done all in their power to settle this question consistently with the principle of the resolutions which had passed that House, and from which he, for his own part, was not disposed even in the slightest degree to retreat. They evinced nothing like personal or vindictive feelings in their proceedings on this subject, and had shown every possible disposition to consider it not only upon principles of justice, but with a view to the proper maintenance of the Church
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Establishment itself. The Government had been charged with being the enemies of the Church—with desiring to work its destruction—but their proposition, if carried into effect, would, he thought, be a triumphant answer, the best that could be given, to the false imputations which had been cast, not only on their measures, but their motives, for it would prove beyond the possibility of doubt, that they were neither indifferent about the rights of the Church, nor unsolicitous for the well-being of the clergy. It was for the protection of the clergy that his Majesty's responsible advisers now proposed bringing in this measure. But, without trespassing further on the patience of the House, he would conclude by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the Act of the 3d and 4th William 4th., for the relief of the owners of tithes in Ireland.
Mr. Ruthvensaid, that he was prepared to place every confidence in the Government, and that he should offer no opposition to the introduction of this Bill. He thought that those who had defeated the Irish Church Bill would have cause to regret the unwise course which they had taken. There were, he admitted, many things in that measure from which he dissented, but still he, like many others who were as strongly attached to it as it was possible to be, felt it to be his duty to sacrifice personal feeling to the attainment of that which they all had in view, namely, the pacification of Ireland.
Mr. Wilksmust say, that this seemed to him to be not only a very liberal and constitutional, but a very humane measure, and he should be most happy to give it his best support.
Motion agreed to. Bill brought in, and read a first time.