Commons Sitting of 18 August 1835

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Prisons' Regulation; Tonnage Admeasurement; Forgery (Scotland); Court of Exchequer (Scotland).—Read a second time:—Larceny (Ireland); Exchequer Bills; Consolidated Fund; Spirit Licences and Wine Permits; St. Margaret's Rectory.
Petitions presented. By Mr. HUME, from the Licensed Victuallers of Ely, Wisbeach, and Witchford, for the Repeal of the Duty on Spirit Licences.—By an HON. MEMBER, from Hastings and St. Leonard's, for a Commutation of Tithes.

PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS.
The House went into Committee on the Public Institutions Bill.
Mr. Tookethought the House would stultify itself if it passed this Bill through the present stage with the Clause relative to the compulsory rate. The hon. Member moved that the Clause be omitted.
Mr. Warburtonthought that the House ought to confine its attention to those measures that were really intended to be passed in the course of the present Session. It was evident the present measure could not be passed during the Session.
Mr. Buckinghamtrusted that the House would pass the Bill with as much rapidity as possible.
Mr. Wysewas in favour of such a power being given to Municipal bodies, but as the Bill relative to those Corporate bodies had not yet passed, it was absolutely necessary that the hon. Member should introduce some machinery, and the only question was, whether that machinery was good or not. He thought the objection to that machinery was not well founded, as it provided that at least two-thirds of the rate-payers should be in favour of that measure, and as the assessment was limited to sixpence in the pound, it was quite obvious that this system could not be open to the same objections as others which would tend to impose heavy burdens upon the people. It was absurd to suppose that the rate-payers of populous towns would be so indifferent to their own interests as not to attend the public meetings, and object to any improper or extravagant proposition. Public opinion, the Press, and the conversation of the inhabitants, one with another, would operate as checks upon any lavish or extravagant expenditure. He should certainly give his decided support to the Bill.
Lord John Russellsaid, that if the Bill were pressed to a third reading, he should certainly be compelled to oppose it. He did not think that the compulsory establishment of public libraries, or other such institutions under the system proposed, would have the good effect contemplated by the hon. Member. The question of public education was a really national one, and he had always been of' opinion that, as a principle, public education should be made a matter of public charge. Those, however, who were connected with the conduct of public education in this country, stated, and certainly with much force, that so long as it was conducted by voluntary societies and committees, bodies which took the greatest interest in the promotion of the subject, it would thrive; but if the thing were made a matter of public charge, the people contributing to the charge would of course have a right to elect the governing bodies, and the probability was, that the majority of such electors would be altogether indifferent on the subject. What was thus stated with great force in reference to actual education, might be applied with ten-fold force to the establishment of public institutions and

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public walks. At present in almost every town might be seen splendid establishments of this kind erected by voluntary contributions at the cost of many thousands of pounds, and managed by societies or committees, who all felt a deep interest in the success of their respective institutions. Now if a compulsory tax were laid down for the maintenance of these establishments, he (Lord J. Russell) much feared that they would be material sufferers from the change, both from the objection to the taxes, and the probable indifference of most of the parties who would be intrusted with the management of them. These were the reasons which induced him—more particularly at this late period of the Session, when so many Members had formed themselves into a Committee of Recreation—to object to the measure; and if any attempt were made to press its third reading, he should most certainly oppose it.
Sir John C. Hobhousewould be inclined to agree with those hon. Members who were for throwing out the Bill altogether. He had no idea that the Bill would have passed the second reading, and so far as he was individually concerned he had made up his mind to give it the most decided opposition. Was not legislation upon such matters as the following most absurd. He would read only the side head:—"Objects to be secured by public walks and public halls: fires to be lighted, and chairs to be provided for social meetings." The idea of providing tables, chairs, &c, for the use of the public hall was absurd as a piece of legislation. The hon. Member perhaps meant well, but it did not shew as much discrimination as he should expect from the maturity of the hon. Member's judgment. He should most decidedly oppose the Bill.
Mr. Warburtonobjected also to the principle of the Bill. He was afraid, if compulsory taxation were resorted to, it would make instruction unpopular among the people. The proposed institutions bore the same respect to scientific institutions as the Established Church bore to other religious establishments.
Mr. William Smith O'Brienwas in favour of the measure, and wished to see the Continental system introduced into England. He hoped that hereafter, not only with reference to that institution, but to all others of a similar kind, they would encourage the principle of local assess-
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ment, for the purpose of erecting establishments of this kind. He would give to the poorer classes of the community those opportunities of rational and intellectual enjoyment, which were now denied them; and thinking that this Bill would in some measure have such an effect, he would support it.
Mr. Buckingham: The British Museum was supported by a compulsory assessment, levied on the country, and so was the National Gallery. The majority had to decide, and the minority were bound to assent to the agreement. But this Bill was not compulsory,—fifty rate-payers must first sign the requisition before a meeting could be held, and when that meeting was held two-thirds of the ratepayers must give their assent, with the knowledge that they must themselves pay the rate. This Bill would have a strong tendency to raise the moral habits of the working classes. Many men after their working hours were desirous of indulging their social feelings in talking with their neighbours; this at present they could only do at the public-house, where they proceeded for this purpose, and not, as he believed, to drink. This Bill would provide places of recreation free from the temptation of strong drink. He hoped, therefore, that the House would permit the Bill to pass through Committee; and if, after it should be amended, the sense of the House should be decidedly against the Bill, it might be expressed on the third reading.
Mr. Ewarthad the greatest respect for this Bill, but he must confess that, in his opinion, its provisions would be better administered by the local Councils under the Municipal Bill. In the principle of the Bill he cordially agreed.
Mr. Peasereminded the Committee that two-thirds of the rate-payers must be brought to the poll, and must express themselves willing to incur the rate. They were the best judges of the habits and morals of the community who were to be served by this Bill, and he, therefore, felt bound to advocate its principle. The stopping of foot paths and Enclosure Bills had deprived the lower classes of many rational amusements, and it was desirable, therefore, in every way possible, to open to them new sources of innocent and healthful amusement. The assessment under this Bill must be, to all intents and purposes, voluntary; and he knew that in

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many places the majority of the ratepayers would avail themselves of the opportunity presented by this Bill. The great object of legislation should be prevention, not punishment; they had gone to the extreme on the other side, it was time now to try prevention. He looked at this measure as one that would be essentially beneficial to the working classes, and he would, therefore, support it.
Mr. Tookewould certainly take the sense of the House upon the Clause, unless upon the understanding that the Bill should not be passed. He would have done this earlier, but that the House was in such a state, that if he proceeded to a division, much public business would be impeded, and he certainly expected that this Bill would not be carried forward. He did not understand what was meant by saying that the rate was not compulsory. It was clearly as compulsory as any other rate or taxation in the district. The rate was to be agreed to, not by two-thirds of the rate-payers generally, but of those that attended at the meeting, which was a very different thing. He thought, also, there ought to be some limit, say 20 l. or 30 l.—some given amount under which persons should not berated; the money ought not to be levied on the humblest and the lowest classes. He had heard, with much regret, his hon. Friend say that he entertained any doubt about the passing of the Municipal Reform Bill. That Bill would certainly pass—and ultimately in a manner satisfactory to the country. He thought that the provisions of this Bill and its principle could be most beneficially carried into effect under the authority and the auspices of the Town Council under the Municipal Reform Bill. He entreated his hon. Friend to consider the inexpediency of pressing this Bill. Many of its provisions would depend in a great measure upon the provisions of the Bill now in progress through the other House. Some legislation would be thereby saved, and he hoped his hon. Friend would see the expediency under all circumstances, and considering the late period of the Session, of not proceeding further with the labour of this impossible Bill. He had no objection to allowing it to be amended in Committee, upon the understanding that it should not be pressed to the third reading. If the hon. Member conceded, he should be happy to suggest such alterations and amendments as had occurred
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to his mind upon a cursory perusal. If, however, the hon. Member insisted on dragging the Bill through the House, he would take the sense of the Committee upon this Clause, and—though he regretted he had not done so on an earlier day—upon the principle of the Bill.
Mr. Ruthvenwas very averse to giving so much power to any individuals as was done by this Bill, and therefore he would oppose it. He thought the Bill one entirely for the rich, and not for the poor. Mechanics' Institutes were much more useful and convenient. Tea-gardens, &c, were not fitted for the habits of this people—they were more manly than the habits of the people of other countries, where the public gardens abounded.
Mr. Wakleymuch regretted that such opposition was now offered to the measure; but under the circumstances, he hoped his hon. Friend would consent to withdraw the Bill for the present Session, lather than have it rejected, or subject the House to the odium of throwing out so beneficial a measure. So far from the House objecting to a compulsory tax for the purposes of public institutions of this description, they ought to promote their increase to the greatest possible extent. They were indispensably necessary as some set off against the multitudinous and enormous barracks, gaols, and workhouses, which in their splendour were a deep disgrace to the country. The promotion of such institutions as those now proposed, would have the effect of speedily putting an end to the necessity for the other description of establishments. No subject was more important than the diffusion of education. The voluntary system had been tried, and had failed: another must be adopted. For upwards of four hundred years had we been in possession of the glorious art of printing, yet what was the existing state of the public mind? He would illustrate what that public mind was, by an example or two which had lately come under his notice. He happened to be down in Devonshire at the last election for that county; what were the reasoning faculties of the farmers there, who were brought up to vote against the noble Lord (John Russell)? What were their alleged reasons for their opposition? "Augh," said they, "we woant ha' na Lard John Rissell! we woant ha' na reform! we woant ha' na Pooap!" He asked one of them, "Would not you

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prefer coming in an independent way to vote, and not being brought up in your landlord's train?" "Can't zay (said the man), I ginerally comes a horseback." He asked another farmer, "Would you not like to go to poll by way of the ballot, my friend?" Don't knaw, zir (said the farmer); I've a been always used to goo by way of Daalish." These, the hon. Member continued, were but specimens of the rest; and the long and the short of the matter was, that the public mind was in a state of the most melancholy darkness and mystification. It was, therefore, of the utmost national importance that the most speedy and effectual means should be adopted for putting an end to this almost universal ignorance. He hoped as the hon. Member for Truro persisted in his opposition, that his hon. Friend would withdraw the Bill.
Mr. Buckinghamwould certainly not withdraw the Bill, to be made the scapegoat of the House. If they objected to the Bill, let them throw it out. He would certainly press his motion.
Sir E. Codringtonhoped the hon. Member would press it, to see who was against the Bill. Constant agitation upon the subject was the only way in which to secure success.
The Committee divided on the Clause: Ayes 20; Noes 36; Majority 16.
On the motion of Mr. Tooke, the Chairman was ordered to leave the Chair, and the House resumed.

List of the NOES.

Baring, F. T.

Pelham, C.

Becket, Sir J.

Perceval, Colonel

Blake, M. J.

Phillipps, C. M.

Blamire, W.

Poulter, J. S.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Rolfe, Sir R.

Clements, Viscount

Ruthven, E. S.

Dillwyn, L.

Ruthven, E.

Elphinstone, H.

Russell, Lord J.

Ferguson, Sir R.

Smith, R. V.

Fielden, John

Somerset, Lord G.

Hobhouse, Sir J. C.

Stanley, E. J.

Howick, Lord

Steuart, R.

Lefevre, C. J.

Stuart, Lord Dudley.

Lennox, Lord G.

Twiss, H.

Mangles, J.

Tynte, C. K.

Maule, Hon. F.

Walker, C. A.

O'Ferrall, M.

Williams, W. A.

O'Loghlen, M.

TELLER.

Parker, J,

Tooke, W.

List of the AYES

Baines, E.

Bridgman, H.

Baldwin, Dr.

Buckingham, J. S.

Boldero, Captain

Codrington, Sir E.

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Ewart, W.

Thompson, Col.

Jephson, C. D.

Tulk, C. A.

O'Brien, W.S.

Wakley, T.

O'Connell, D.

Walker, R.

Pease, J.

Warburton, H.

Pechell, Captain

Wilks, J.

Roche, W.

TELLER.

Ronayne, D.

Wyse, T.

Bill postponed sine die.

CONSTABULARY FORCE—(IRELAND.
Viscount Morpeth Viscount Morpeth moved, that the House would go into Committee on the Constabulary Force in Ireland Bill.
Colonel Percevalwould like to know on what grounds the Government attempted to degrade the unpaid and independent magistracy of Ireland by depriving them of the power of selecting the police—a duty for which no men were more competent, being men of property, and interested in the peace and well-being of the country? Why should these men be set aside, and that power transferred to some creature of the Lord-Lieutenant? According to the present Bill, they were to have inspectors for each county, and separate paymasters. He admitted one-half of the expense of that was to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, but the other half was to be paid by the county. Again, there was to be one inspector, not less than four sub-inspectors, and not less than six chief constables, or more than eighteen. At present they had only four chief constables, and one inspector who acted as paymaster. He challenged the noble Lord to state any ground for this measure, which would have the effect of inflicting double the present expense on all the counties in Ireland. In his opinion the Bill was absurd throughout; the whole control was given to the Lord-Lieutenant, and he might exercise the capricious authority that was given him as he chose. There was an oath appended to the Bill, which he wished to know from the noble Lord whether it was intended to operate in aid of that oppression which had hitherto been exercised towards Orangemen, and whether all men belonging to Orange Societies were to be called upon to take that oath before they entered into the police? He wished to know whether that oath was intended as a trap to catch them, in order that they might be punished as the men at Ross were?
Viscount Morpeththought with the hon. and gallant Member, that second thoughts were generally best; but he considered that the hon. and gallant

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Member had taken a most erroneous course when he altered his first impression in favour of the Bill. The hon. and gallant Member had asked, whether his Majesty's Government intended by this Bill to pass any slur upon the general body of the Magistracy and the police force in Ireland. He begged to assure the hon. and gallant Member that his Majesty's Government had no such intention or motive, nor had they brought forward the Bill with any such design. He admitted the police force of Ireland to be on the whole a valuable institution, contributing largely to the public peace and welfare; but there was a general want of control in its management, and there were many imperfections about it which, if brought under strict control, would make it much more serviceable. With respect to the Magistrates, his Majesty's Government, in doing what they had done by the present Bill, were only following an example which in many counties had been set by the Magistrates themselves, who had voluntarily resigned their power, believing that it would be exercised much more for the public good by the highest and most responsible quarter—the Government of the country. It was well known that the constabulary force in Ireland was divided into four portions, according to the provinces, without any head, and all the finance and internal arrangements were thrown upon the Under Secretary, who had duties enough otherwise to perform. It was for this reason that the Government proposed to appoint one Inspector-General, residing at Dublin Castle, instead of the four provincial Inspectors-General. Their salaries amounted to 5,432 l., while that of the new Inspector-General and his deputy would be only 1,600 l. It was also proposed to appoint an Inspector for each county, and to intrust the duty of Paymaster and Storekeeper to a clerk, with a salary of 100 l., but these salaries were all subject to the opinion of the House in Committee. It was not intended to interfere with the existing police force, and the Lord Lieutenant would have a power of increasing that force when occasion required it. He was opposed to any increase on the burthens of the people; and it would be seen that the expense of the proposed force would not exceed that of the present one. He estimated it thus. Under the contemplated plan, the salary of the Inspector
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would be 1,000 l.—the Sub-Inspector,660 l.—Inspectorsof counties, 11,900 l.—Thirty-two Paymasters and Clerks, 3,200 l.—Eighty Sub-Inspectors, 7,400 l.—Two hundred and fifty-six Chief Constables, 12,500 l.—and besides this there would be a subsidiary force, whose pay would amount to about 1,687 l. The whole forming a total of 41,200 l.; while the expense of the system as at present constituted was 44,239 l. But the largest reduction, and that from which he hoped to derive the most beneficial results, was from the Superannuation Fund that he proposed to introduce. The gallant Member had adverted to the oath proposed to be taken by the police officers, and from the stress which he laid on the oath, it would appear that it had most excited his anger. It seemed to him (Lord Morpeth) that the very words of the oath signified, that it was not to have a retrospective tendency. The officer was to swear that he "does not now belong to, and will not join any secret or political society whatever." No one, therefore, could complain, as unless he was prepared to take the oath he need not present himself. If any Orangeman was at present an officer, he would have an opportunity of considering whether he should remain in the police or retire from it, but if he did not choose to leave such secret societies, he would be debarred from keeping his station in the police force. And surely when the noble and gallant Member told them that there were few recruits for the army or the police that did not belong to secret or political societies, and when he saw the hazard that these societies were to the peace and good-will that ought to prevail in Ireland—surely it was time to look to the state of the Army. The police ought not to have a suspicious character among those whose peace they were to protect, or if they thought—no matter how erroneously—that they were leagued in societies contrary to their interests, and that they existed only to exert an injurious supremacy over them. Respecting the case of New Ross, the police were dismissed from the service because they declined to answer questions which were put to them, and not because they belonged to Orange Lodges. They refused to answer questions that were put to them in the course of an inquiry which it was thought by the Government to be incumbent on them to prosecute. He would not

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offer any further observations on the general character of the Bill, but there were certain points which he should be very ready to discuss at the proper time.
Mr. Shawcontended that the effect of this Bill would be to vest immense power and patronage in the hands of the Irish Government, and to supersede the Magistracy of the country. He did not object to there being one Inspector to the whole police force, but he wished to make some observations respecting the second clause—that relating to County Inspectors, which appeared to him to be a most important Clause. They were to have Inspectors for every county, and these were to take forthwith the oath taken by Justices, and, therefore, to become Justices of the Peace. If this were so, and they were to have salaried justices of the peace, these inspectors would virtually supersede the unpaid magistracy, and this introduced, in his opinion, a most impolitic principle. There would be no saving of expense, but even if it did, they would be obliged to purchase it at too dear a rate. He thought it a very dangerous and unconstitutional principle respecting the oath proposed to be taken. The noble Lord had let out what had led to the adoption of that oath. It was to exclude Orangemen.—[Lord Morpeth—"All party men."] He did not think so. The noble Lord had said that if an Orangeman were to present himself, he must be prepared to leave all secret societies. Respecting the inquiry at New Ross, he thought the proceeding was illegal—it was not only contrary to the constitution but to the law. It seemed to him unconstitutional to oblige the police to clear themselves by what was called a voluntary affidavit. He thought the system of persecution (for persecution he would call it) carried on by the Irish Government would not have the effect desired. There was, he contended, on the part of the Government of Ireland a spirit of persecution carried on by a particular class. The tendency of this would be, and had been, to increase the very body they were endeavouring to put down. Suppose a law were passed to exercise such authority over his gallant Friend, as to say to him, that if he did not cease to be an Orangeman, he should not have a seat in that House—he was sure that his gallant Friend had too much spirit to yield to such authority, and he could tell the
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noble Lord, that-the more he proceeded with persecution against these Societies, the more they would increase. He must, at the same time, say, that he was opposed to these Societies, and he was opposed to this persecution, because it would lead to the establishment of such Societies. It was symptomatic of an unsound state of society. He did not deny that these Societies ought to be discouraged, but it was not possible to put them down by the means adopted by the Government. In this case the oath proposed to be taken would not reach those whom it ought to be intended for. The Riband-men would be able to swear that he no longer belonged to any secret or illegal body, and yet substantially he would still belong to it. These parties had too well learnt the lesson that had been taught them. They knew too well how to evade all tests of this nature. The hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. O'Connell) had often boasted that he could drive a coach and six through an Act of Parliament, and did the noble Lord think that these Riband-men would not find advisers to show them how to evade this Act of Parliament. He did not see how the Bill could be made effective, for the fact was that the Orangemen called their Society a religious Society. It was useless to attempt to legislate for such a state of society as that in Ireland upon general principles. He could not but deprecate this measure, and he must say that since the noble Lord had administered the affairs of Ireland, he had done very little to obtain the confidence of the Irish gentry, whose Church he had taken away, and now sought to deprive them of their independence.
Sir Edmund Hayesthought there was nothing so objectionable in the principle of this Bill as to lead the House to refuse going into the Committee. He certainly did feel at first that the expenses were likely to be much increased by it, and consequently felt much hostility to the measure; but he must confess that the statement of the noble Lord led him to suppose that he had been in some measure mistaken. He did hope that this would not be made a party measure, by introducing topics calculated to excite animosity and warmth of language wholly unconnected with the subject; there were surely topics enough upon which to exercise the weapons of party warfare, and he

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did feel that not only had it a bad effect in the House, but also upon those who were interested in their proceedings out of it, to perceive that even a question which was almost purely financial, and bearing upon the internal regulations of a county, was mixed up with party considerations; neither did he agree with the right hon. the Recorder, that the Inspector of Police in each county, being also a County Magistrate, would have the effect of superseding the local magistracy, and was likely to prove very injurious. He (Sir E. Hayes) thought it highly desirable that the head of the police should have the commission of the peace; there were many cases where the police could not act except in the presence of a magistrate, and in which the local magistrate, from many causes, might be reluctant to interfere; for instance, in tithe seizures. He certainly felt some jealousy upon the Government monopolizing the appointment of constables; there was a grasping disposition and a desire manifested to transfer to Government too much of the management of local affairs, and take it from the hands of those most interested in their good arrangement; the magistrates were more likely to know persons fitted for the situation than the Government, and none were more concerned in the efficiency of the force; there was a great inconvenience and danger in making the police too independent of the magistracy. On the whole, he would not object to go into Committee—at the same time he was determined to oppose every Clause which tended to increase the expense.
The House went into Committee—the Clauses were agreed to—and the House resumed.

AMENDMENT OF THE MARRIAGE ACT.
Mr. Twiss Mr. Twiss moved the further consideration of the Report on the Bill for amending the Marriage Act. On the, question that the Amendment be read a second time,
Mr. Plumptre Mr. Plumptre moved an Amendment to the effect that an exception should be made in favour of the sisters of a former wife, when there were children by that wife under twelve years of age.
Mr. Twisscould not agree to this suggestion of the hon. Gentleman, and trusted that he would not press his Amendment, because if he did, he would endanger the Bill in another place. He did
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not mean to use this as an argument against the Amendment, but simply threw it out as a suggestion to the hon. Gentleman.
Dr. Lushingtonsaid, that the law was at present in a most objectionable state. If a man had married, for example, any of his wife's relatives, up to her sister, it was at the option of any party, either because it was to his interest or at the suggestion of a hostile feeling, to proceed against the individual so marrying, and annul the marriage. The proceedings, however must be taken and concluded during the life-time of the individuals, otherwise the marriage was held to be legal, and the children became legitimate. One great objection to the existing law was, that it encouraged people to its violation by affording them the prospect of an escape from any of its penalties; another was, that parties who had contracted such marriages frequently, where property was concerned, passed their whole lives in great anxiety; and instances had come to his knowledge in which, to avoid a threatened prosecution, they had submitted to repeated extortion. The Amendment proposed by the hon. Gentleman involved an important question, and one upon which he had not yet made up his mind. He admitted the advantage to be gained in those cases in which a man married the sister of his wife when there was a young offspring; but on the other hand it was a subject for grave consideration, whether it might not be exceedingly dangerous with reference to the peculiar situation in which such connexions were naturally placed, and the great temptations to which they were subject, to encourage the feelings that might spring up between them. The consequences would, perhaps, be, that the wife during her life-time would have her jealousy excited, and suffer considerable anxiety and pain. Under these circumstances he hoped that the hon. Gentleman would not press his Amendment; for it was impossible at this period of the Session it could have the consideration due to its importance. He believed he had said enough to satisfy the House that so much of the Bill as went to legalize all such marriages as had taken place, or that might take place of the nature he had described, ought to be passed into a law without delay. He trusted that the hon. Gentleman would withdraw his Amendment.
The House divided on the Amendment,

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when forty Members not being present, the House adjourned.