Commons Sitting of 16 April 1834

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Mr. EWART, from Liverpool, for preventing the Importation of Stripped Tobacco from the United States.—By Lords MORPETH and SANDON, Colonel EDWARDS, and Messrs. TODD, JERNINGHAM, LOCKE, JOHNSTONE, FINCH, and BAINES, from a Number of Places,—for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By Lord LUMLEY, from the Members of the Animals' Friends Society, for the Protection of the Dumb Creation.—By Mr. EVANS, from Lusk, for an Inquiry into the State of the Irish Fisheries; and from Nethercross, against the Tithes (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. POTTER, from a Society at Manchester, for Alterations in the High Ways Bill.—By Mr. HOPE JOHNSTONE, from the Fish Curers of Fife, for Relieving Vessels from paying Light-House Duties more than once in the Season.—By the same, and Admiral ADAMS, from four Places,—for the Repeal of the Reciprocity of Duties Act; also from three Places, for the Repeal of the Stamp Duty on Receipts—By Lord LUMLEY and Admiral ADAMS, from the Hand-Loom Weavers of Blackrod and Alloa,—for Relief.—By Mr. HUTT, from Kingston-upon-Hull, against the General Register Bill.—By Mr. RIGBY WASON, from Ipswich, for an Alteration in Municipal Corporations.—By Mr. O'CONNELL, from Youghal, for the Repeal of the Union.—By Lord DALMENY, Admiral ADAMS, and Messrs. JOHNSTONE and GASKELL, from several Places,—for an Alteration in the present System of Church Patronage in Scotland.—By Lords MORPETH, LUMLEY, and JOHN RUSSELL, Sir RALPH LOPEZ, and Messrs. GUEST, EWART, LAMRTON, and TYNTE, from a Number of Places, and Dissenting Congregations,—for Relief to the Dissenters.

THE DORCHESTER LABOURERS.
Mr. Hutthad a Petition, signed by upwards of
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7,000 members of the Grand National Trades' Union of Kingston-upon-Hull, imploring his Majesty's Government to remit the punishment inflicted upon the six labourers tried and convicted at the last Dorchester Assizes. He (Mr. Hutt) was not the advocate of the Trades' Unions. He thought them most mischievous in their operation, both towards society at large, and those who became members of such bodies. But that was entirely distinct from the question at present before them. The question was, whether his Majesty's Government, having inflicted the severest penalty the law allowed, for an offence which these people were ignorant they were committing, had not transgressed the bounds of justice and humanity? He had himself been a member of a secret society, and had taken a secret oath. He was aware at the time that he was infringing the law; but when he had heard that it had only been acted upon once in a period of forty years, he conceived that it was obsolete, and that a fine of sixpence would be a sufficient penalty for transgressing such a statute. He hoped it would be clearly understood, that these individuals had not been punished for taking a secret oath, but for having been members of the Trades' Unions. He deplored the conduct of his Majesty's Government towards these men, because there was every reason to hope that these Unions were falling to pieces, and would, if not for this step, ere now, have been totally annihilated. The law, he admitted, should be vindicated, but that vindication should have been tempered with justice, humanity, and discretion.
Mr. Feargus O'Connorbegged to offer a few observations upon the law of the case, although, in doing so, he might, perhaps, be charged with impertinence in placing his opinion in opposition to that of hon. Gentlemen who had yesterday alluded to the Act of Parliament under which these unfortunate men had been tried. It appeared that they had been tried under the 37th Geo. 3rd; and it appeared, also, by a reference to that Act, that it was directed against persons who might attempt to seduce sailors and soldiers from their allegiance. The 52nd Geo. 3rd had been passed for the purpose of explaining the Act, and it was injustice to those men to indict them antler the former, when the latter was in existence. He did not hesitate to say,

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that, if they had been indicted under the 52nd of Geo. 3rd, it could not have been made out that the law had been in the slightest degree infringed. It was plain, from the nature of the oath, and the punishment inflicted, that the crime of these unfortunate men had no reference to the Act under which they had been tried. The hon. and learned Gentleman, the member for Knaresborough, when he had alluded to the Act yesterday, had certainly not read or not considered it properly. These unfortunate men had been most unfairly dealt with. Who, he would ask, had brought forward these Unions, who should really be in their place at that moment? Those persons who had created and used them for their own purposes. It might not be the fashion to speak in that manner, or perhaps it might excite laughter; but he thought that Earl Grey, Lord Brougham, the noble Lord, the Paymaster of the Forces, and the right hon. the Secretary for the Colonies, should be on board the hulks in place of those unfortunate men, for they had been the prime movers and actors in all the transactions which had for their object the promotion of political change by means of unions of the working classes. They were, in short, accessories before the fact, as far as the Dorchester Unionists were concerned. With respect to the Trades' Unions, what was it, he would ask, which caused them to adopt the title of Political Unions? Why, nothing but the imbecile and truckling conduct of the present Whig Government. He was the last man in the world to commend the conduct of those who were guilty; but there could be no doubt, that the unfortunate Dorchester labourers had erred without a knowledge of the law; and such being the case, he considered the sentence a most severe, a most unjust one. Were the present Ministers determined, in spite of every thing they had seen and heard, still to stand between the people and the Throne, cutting off the royal clemency for those who had transgressed the law, because they were not acquainted with it? The Government were actually intimidated by that which had raised themselves into power, and thought themselves justified in pursuing so severe a course, for the purpose of putting an end to the very power they had themselves raised. Would the Government listen to reason? Would they still go on hurrying the people from
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their allegiance? If they did, all he could say was, their perverseness and folly would almost make rebellion a virtue. For his own part, he had no hesitation in saying, they would go on as long as they could find gentlemen to cheer them; but, if they did, they must remember that the cheer would soon be drowned by the condemnation of the people. That House was the place to which the people looked for relief, but relief could never be afforded as long as an imbecile and truckling Ministry sat on the other side of the House. He trusted the Government would adopt a different line of conduct, for they might be assured, if they did not, when convulsion came, they would be taught what it was to stand between his Majesty and his subjects.
Mr. Wasonhad no doubt of the legality of the sentence passed on those unhappy men. The right hon. Baronet, the member for Cumberland, said, that two days had been spent in considering their case; but then the object of inquiry was not whether the sentence was severe, but upon a doubt raised by the counsel, whether the law applied to their case. Every one knew, that when it became the duty of a judge to pronounce sentence of transportation for any crime, it could not be for a less term than seven years; and he was sure, that if such a term as three years could be given to those men for a punishment, the learned judge would have willingly limited their sufferings to that period. Let no doubt be entertained, then, of the legality of the sentence. At the same time, he thought that the Government should have interposed its authority to mitigate the heavy sentence of those men, and make their punishment more proportionate to their crime.
Mr. Rotchdid not consider himself called upon to answer the observations of the hon. Member, as the Act upon which he had relied was an Act subsequent to the Act upon which those persons had been convicted. It was impossible, that the persons in question could have been indicted under the 52nd Geo. 3rd, for it did not apply to their case. He must leave the hon. and learned Member, therefore, to make out a better case. When he quoted this Act on which he (Mr. Rotch) had given his opinion, he would then meet him.
Mr. Feargus O'Connor, in explanation, observed, that he had not plied upon the

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Act to which the hon. Member had alluded. What he had said was, that it was most unjust to indict a person under an Act, when there was a subsequent Act passed to explain it.
Colonel Evanswas of opinion, that the learned judge was not amenable to censure. The whole affair rested with his Majesty's Government. The question was one of great importance to the peace of the country; for it involved the Government as a conflicting party with all the workmen of the country. If the Under Secretary of the Home-Office were present to hear the statements, the noble Lord might, perhaps, give some satisfactory explanation, which was much needed. No person was more adverse than he was to Trades' Unions; he would not defend them, because he considered that industry was a description of property, which ought to be held the most sacred, and left the most free. He was most anxious to extend protection to every individual labourer; and such protection was quite inconsistent with any undue means of intimidation. He thought that his Majesty's Government were right in inflicting some punishment on those men, but it should have been a much lighter one.
The Petition to lie on the Table.

LORDSHIP OF THE TREASURY.
Colonel Evans, in rising to present a petition respectably signed by the Mayor, and others of Hastings, stated, that he should avail himself of this opportunity to put a question to the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Warre), whom he had apprised of his intention to do so. The question was in itself of importance, but infinitely more so, as connected with other matters, to which he should allude. The cause of his taking this matter up, was, that he had been politically, and he might say closely, connected with that part of the county of Sussex, had the pleasure of being acquainted with many of the most respectable and influential of the electors of Hastings, and could not therefore decline to comply with their wishes, in which great numbers concurred, to make this inquiry of the hon. Member for that borough. The question was certainly rather a peculiar one, that of asking a Gentleman if he meant to resign his seat; but then, as he should show, the grounds on which he should do so were even yet more unprecedented, and perfectly justi-
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fied this step. It was in their recollection the first practical evidence of the loss of the confidence of the public by Government was on the occasion of the Admiralty Board. An hon. Member of the House was appointed a Lord of the Admiralty, who accordingly accepted the Chiltern Hundreds, in the full expectation, no doubt, of being re-elected by his constituents. But the important town of Gloucester did not fulfil those expectations. On the contrary, though his family were powerful and esteemed in the neighbourhood, and possessed indeed the most commanding influence in the county, and though he had previously triumphed as an avowed supporter of Ministers, so altered was the opinion of the electors regarding the Ministry, that they now refused to ratify the appointment conferred on him by those Ministers, and supplanted him, by his previously unsuccessful opponent. Accordingly, that office at the Admiralty had remained to this time without a seat in Parliament. Need he mention Westminster and Marylebone, as confirmatory of the displeasure of the public, with the half-and-half unsatisfactory policy pursued by those in power. Again the highly important office of Attorney General became vacant. A similar result was the consequence. In one respect this was satisfactory. It was a further and a very powerful proof of the state of the public mind, and of what Ministers must expect, unless they adhered more faithfully to their former pledges. So far as the Attorney-General individually, however, as a Member of that House, and a useful Law Reformer, was concerned, he much regretted the exclusion of the learned Gentleman; and he would take the opportunity, on that point, of asking a question of the noble Lord opposite, (whose presence at this time as a Cabinet Minister was quite novel and refreshing,) as to whether the Bills of Reform in certain branches of the law, commenced by the Attorney General while he had a seat in the House, were to be abandoned or carried forward by the Government. Much solicitude was entertained out of doors on this point. He should now come more directly to the case referred to. Several months since, a vacancy had occurred in one of the Lordships of the Treasury. Warned by the difficulties alluded to, the Administration, appeared all this time to have failed in obtaining the acceptance of

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this honourable and lucrative office, by any Member of the House. At length the hon. Gentleman opposite appeared to have been prevailed on to entertain the question of accepting this office; but with a condition certainly unusual. The office was previously filled by a Member from the northern division of the empire. It had been contended by the friends of Government, that such a selection was essential for the interests of Scotland. The selection, therefore, of' the hon. Gentleman, was a departure from that rule, as the hon. Member (Mr. Warre) represented, it might be said, the extreme South. But, here, in candour, he was bound to exonerate the Government from all blame—for the hon. Gentleman had proved most satisfactorily, by the condition which he annexed to his acceptance of the office, that he was by no means devoid of that prudence, caution, and wariness which characterised the natives of Scotland. Therefore, next to a Scotchman, the Government acted judiciously in selecting him to look after the fiscal interests of Scotland. He mentioned this with every feeling of high respect for the hon. Gentleman, who very prudently declined the office, when he found, upon inquiry at Hastings, that it was more than likely he should be ousted from his seat. No Government was ever before so situated as the present. It was clear, by these several instances, that they were not proceeding in unison with the sentiments of the constituencies by which they had been previously returned to this House. Both by the theory and practice of the Constitution, the Commons should represent the sentiments, at least of the electors, if not of the people generally. As Ministers could not go on without a majority of the Commons in their favour,—so, consequently, they should, in political conduct, assimilate with the House, and through the House, with the electors. This obviously now was not the case. Finally, the hon. Gentleman having, by a proceeding totally novel, ascertained that those who sent him to the House no longer approved of his public conduct, he denied, that the former supporters of the hon. Gentleman had now a just claim, in order to be more consistently represented, to invite the hon. Gentleman to give way to a candidate who would represent the opinions of the majority of the electors of Hastings.
Mr. Warresaid, it was perfectly true, that an offer had been made him of a seat at the Treasury Board; and, upon that being done, he had acted as he thought it was right to do—communicated it to his friends and supporters, thinking that they had a perfect right to see the position in which he stood; and he was sure, that the gallant Colonel was too well aware of what the place which was offered him was, to suppose that he was actuated in what he had done by any improper considerations. He did not consider it necessary to give any other answer to the observations of the gallant Colonel; what he had done was perfectly well known; he did not repent of it; and by the course he had adopted, he was ready to abide. With respect to the statement of the gallant Colonel, that he had lost his supporters, all he had to say was, that it was as easy to make assertions of that description on the one side as on the other. The town had been placarded, as was usual on all elections; and if the gallant Colonel could draw any inference from that, he was most welcome to do so. He would again repeat, that what he had done he should not repent of, and intended to abide by.
Lord John Russelldid not mean to enter into all the topics that the gallant Colonel had adverted to; but there were one or two points which he felt bound to notice. First, with respect to the course Government intended to pursue with respect to certain bills for the reform of the law; the two principal measures were those which the Attorney-General, when he was a Member of the House, had been pledged to—namely, the Local Courts Bill and the Imprisonment for Debt Bill. With regard to those two measures, it was the fixed intention of his Majesty's Government to carry them through in the present Session. The gallant Colonel had also entered into a discussion with respect to elections, and had taken an opportunity of saying, that in almost every instance of Members of that House taking place under the present Government they lost their seats. That, he was ready to admit, to a certain extent was true; but still the cause of that was very soon explained. The members of former Cabinets had a ready course to regain entrance to the House through a constituency of but few individuals. That, however, was not the case since the passing of the Reform Bill;

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and the present Ministers, almost to a man, represented large constituencies. What had, therefore, taken place was not to be wondered at. At the time of the discussion of the Reform Bill, he foresaw that such might be the case, even though the Government enjoyed the full share of the confidence of the people which it ought to have, and in that he was not mistaken. With respect to the two instances in which they had failed at elections, those of Gloucester and Dudley, he thought that the fair inference to be drawn from the result of those elections was, that Government had been going too rapidly on in the way of innovation, and the people, in order to put a stop to such things, had sent Conservatives into Parliament.
Colonel Evanscould not but give great credit to the noble Lord for the very ingenious manner in which he had accounted for the several failures gentlemen taking office under Government had experienced in endeavouring to obtain a seat in that House.
Petition laid on the Table.