Commons Sitting of 19 July 1833

MINUTES.
Papers ordered. On the Motion of Mr. O'CONNELL, Accounts of the Sums of Money received by the commissioners of Woods and Forests out of Ireland for the last four years: also a Return of the time at which each of the Judges of the Courts of Exchequer, King's Bench, and Common Pleas in Ireland, was promoted to the Bench, and at what time each Judge was called to the Bar; also the Sums of Money paid by each Newspaper in Ireland for Stamps during the twelvemonth preceding the 5th July, 1835, and the Sum received by each Paper from Government for Advertisements and Proclamations, &c.—On the Motion of Mr. HUME, an Account of the Salaries and Allowances paid by the Government in India for the support of clergymen and Priests of the different Faiths at each of the Presidencies.—On the Motion of Mr. FINN, the Names and Description of the Persons employed under the Commission to inquire into the State of Municipal Corporations in England, Scotland, and Ireland.—On the Motion of Mr. HUTT, the Number of Vessels, and the Amount of Tonnage entered inwards at the Port of Hull from Foreign Parts, from 1808 to 1833, and the Ports from which such Vessels cleared, whether Foreign or British.—On the Motion of Lord SANDON, an Account from each Official Assignee of the Sums of Money in his hands under every Commission, or Fiat in Bankrupts—On the Motion of Mr. KENNEDY, an Account, Alphabetically arranged according to Parishes and Counties, of the total Pecuniary and other Emoluments of each Clergyman of the Established Church in Scotland, in 1830, 1831, and 1832; the game of each Parochial Schoolmaster in Scotland, during the same period.
Bills. Read a second time;—Procurators Fiscal (Scotland); Sugar Carriages Act Amendment: Holyhead Road.
Petitions presented. By Mr. PINNEY, from Lyme Regis, for an Alteration in the Sale of Beer Act.—By Captain ELLIOTT, from the Woollen Yarn Spinners, against the Factories Regulation Bill.—By Mr. FNYER, from the Political Union of Kilmarnock, for Vote by Ballot,—By Mr. TOWNLEY, from the Baptists of Wisbeach, for Relief with respect to Marriages, Registration, and Church Rates.—By Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON, from Kirkpatrick (Durham), for Abolishing the Law of Patronage in Scotland.

EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
On the Motion of Mr. Charles Grant, the House resolved itself into Committee upon the East-India Bill.
The Chairman put the 89th clause, which provides for the appointment of two Bishops, one for the Presidency of Fort St. George, and the other for the Island of Bombay.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, this was a most important part of the Bill, for it recognised what he thought was a separate Christian establishment. This was a subject on which he felt warmly, under which the whole people of Ireland were deeply interested. He must therefore trespass on the Committee while he stated his views. The hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Inglis) had given the name to it of a dominant church in India. Not a word was in the Bill, and not a word had been said by any member of the Government about a dominant Church; but as the hon. member for the University of
1020
Oxford had stated triumphantly that it would be so, he (Mr. O'Connell) would adopt the expression, and contend that no such principle should be extended to India. He hoped that the Bill would be received as the first great Charter in India, and that it would be the basis of a new order of things, after centuries of misrule, cruelty, and ignorance, and that it would be the means of the gradual introduction into that part of the world of manufactures, the arts, science, and literature. Those were the objects of the Bill; but they would be defeated if the causes of all the religious dissensions and jealousies of Europe were transported to India, and they could not have a dominant church without introducing at the same time all the rancour and hate of religious animosity and opposition. All Christians should be put upon an equal footing. The hon. and learned Member entered into a detail of the vast disproportion between the members of the Protestant Church in India, and those of the Catholic Church, and into the relative numbers of the members of the different religious persuasions in India, and said, that the object of the clause now before them was to appoint two Bishops for about 15,000 or 20,000 Protestants, while there were above half a million of Catholics, all of whom would be taxed to pay the salaries of those Bishops. At Ceylon some proofs had been given of the evils of intolerance. When Sir Alexander Johnstone, to whom he gave the utmost credit for humanity and good feeling, arrived there, he found that the efforts of the Jesuits and other Missionaries had spread the doctrines of Christianity so far, that the highest species of Budd'ism was already extinct. But when the Dutch came to govern that country, they reduced by their penal enactments the number of Catholics, from 400,000 to 60,000, and sent to Siam for a new establishment of priests to form a new dominant hierarchy of Budd'ism. He would not admit the necessity of any ascendancy or domination in religion; but called upon the hon. Gentlemen opposite to declare candidly their opinions and intentions. He did not charge them with a desire to introduce domination, but they had been so charged, and the accusation would be confirmed by their silence, if they were silent. There ought not to be a dominant church in India, The Government was

1021
bound to look to two classes of his Majesty's subjects—to the Catholic and Presbyterian, as well as to the Protestant. It would wring the hearts of hon. Members if they could see the letters written by the poor Catholic Irish soldiers in India to their friends at homo, written in a state of physical debility, and with the expectation of death from the effects of the climate. In such communications, the chief and constant complaint of the poor soldier was the want of religious consolation. If there were provision made for the Protestant, there should also be provision made for the Catholic and Presbyterian, and he would again ask to be told explicitly whether the same assistance was to be rendered to these as to the Protestant?
Mr. Charles Grantcomplimented the hon. and learned Member on the tone and temper in which he had introduced the subject. The ground upon which the alteration had been founded was the necessity for increased means of religious consolation. At present there were but one Bishop and three Archdeacons; it was proposed to increase the number of Bishops to three, and leaving the Archdeacons as they stood, with respect to numbers, to take from their incomes as much as would provide 2,500 l. a-year for each of the two additional Bishops. This country had no right to send its subjects abroad without giving them the religious advantages they enjoyed at home, and it was bound to place within the reach of its Indian subjects the means of attaining the blessings of Christianity. In making this provision, he would unhesitatingly declare to the House that he did not like the idea of connecting domination with any church. It was with the intention of providing religious instruction for the officers who were sent to govern India, that he had proposed the Resolution. He wished to promote that high and Catholic spirit, which was founded in charity, and was averse from all thoughts of human domination. The Government would neither establish nor promote in India anything which was unfair or intolerant to any religion, meaning certainly only to do honour to the English name, and to the principles of Christianity. He certainly avowed a strong feeling in favour of the Established Church, to which he belonged; but there was nothing in that predilection which could induce him to allow its interference with any other religious belief, or to seek
1022
for that Church dominion over other churches. He knew there was a very large Roman Catholic community in India, and they deserved the particular regard and consideration of the Government, but in what mode, to what extent, and under what form their claims could best be satisfied, he was not prepared to state; it would not be difficult, he hoped, to adjust the matter when parties applied themselves fairly and sincerely to the task, and he should be happy to communicate with the hon. and learned member for the city of Dublin upon the subject, or with any other persons who took an interest in it. He thought, that without inference to religious feeling, it would be the best policy (and he knew the Catholics of India were anxious for it) that the Catholic pastors in India should be British subjects, and not foreigners.
Mr. Wynnremembered with feelings of pleasure the disposition manifested by the Government and the East-India Company, when he was in office, to afford every facility to the promulgation of Christianity in India, without regard to what particular sect the various parties engaged in its dissemination might belong. At the same time, he remembered, that complaints were made of the inconvenience arising from the Catholic soldiers not being able to communicate with the priests in their own language; and an inquiry was making at the period when he left the Board, for persons in Ireland and England, to undertake the mission of Roman Catholic priests in India. He trusted that they were themselves but a sect, and would participate in the feeling expressed by his lamented friend. Bishop Heber, who said it was his highest pride to be considered as placed at the head of the Christian Church in India, in order to co-operate with the members of every different sect and persuasion. He declared, in one of his letters, that one of the most satisfactory days he had passed, was when he administered ordination to a native. On that day he entertained, together, the heads of the Catholic, Presbyterian, and Arminian religions in India, who met to participate in the common feeling of satisfaction at seeing that rite of ordination administered to a native. The Bishop was the head of the Episcopal Church, and his peculiar function was, to superintend those congregations which were in community with that Church. The missionaries were not

1023
under his jurisdiction; but they felt so much advantage in having his protection, that there was hardly a missionary, whatever his sect was, who was not willing to proceed in community with the head of the English Episcopal Church, for the great and general object of promoting the spread of the Christian religion. With respect to a provision for the Presbyterians, he did not believe any considerable difficulty could exist; at least not the same difficulty as with the Catholics; because the Presbyterians and the Episcopalians were in communion with each other, and had no repugnance to attend each other's service.
Mr. Sheilsaid, that the President of the Board of Control had admitted that he was anxious to establish his own peculiar form of Christianity in India. Let the right hon. Gentleman indulge in his predilections in his closet, but not in the Cabinet; let him adore his God in his own fashion, but not make his sectarian preferences the basis of his legislation. Paley had laid it down, that the Governor was bound to look to the religion of his people, not to his own. The right hon. Gentleman acted in direct variance with that position, and had not answered the question, whether he desired to have a dominant church in India.
Mr. Granthad already stated, that he did not.
Mr. Sheil: Then, are all religions to be established in India?
Mr. Macaulay: All are to be paid.
Mr. Sheil: Yes; but payment did not constitute establishment. In France all religions were supported, but none was established. Government would give pre-eminence by Act of Parliament to the Anglo-Indian Church, and this was done despite the advice of the East-India Company. He held in his hand the correspondence of the India Company with the Board of Control, dated July 10, 1833. The Company protested against the establishment of two more Bishoprics. It insisted that it was unjust to tax natives for the support of an establishment. He would read the following remarkable passage:—"And here, Sir, the court must call your attention to the striking fact, that the charge to India of the ecclesiastical establishment has been augmented since the institution of the see of Calcutta from 48,000 l. to more than 100,000 l. per annum, and that the clerical part of the pension-list has
1024
been increased from 800 l. per annum to 5,000 l. per annum. The Court, therefore, cannot contemplate the creation of two more sees without apprehension of financial consequences. We recognise, indeed, in your proposal, great anxiety to limit the expense; but we fear that it will be found impossible to maintain the limitation when the officers are created, and the Bishop of Calcutta shall have become a metropolitan." Thus the Company, to whom the powers of Government were to be transferred, protested against this enlargement of the hierarchy, which would end in a vast episcopal establishment. Already the expense had risen from 48,000 l. to 100,000 l. If one Bishop had produced this increase of expense, what would two additional Bishops effect? And if one Bishop generated two, would not the three soon produce a large episcopal progeny? The majority of native Christians were Catholic; they were 600,000 in number. How grossly unjust, then, it was to establish a costly church to which they were wholly alien! Besides the 600,000 native Catholics, there was a large body of European Catholics, especially Irish soldiers. Thus all the evils of the Irish Church Establishment were to be sown in India, and would produce the same results. Let them transplant Christianity to India, but not controversy, the weed that grew beside and killed it. In a few years a struggle would take place between the Catholic, the Calvinist, and the Protestant population, arising from the pre-eminence given to one. The hon. Member then read the following quotation from the works of the reverend Robert Hall: "Happy had it been, however, had civil establishments of religion been useless only, instead of being productive of the greatest evils. But, when Christianity is established by law, it is requisite to give the preference to some particular system; and, as the Magistrate is no better judge of religion than others, the chances are as great of his lending his sanction to the false as the true. Splendor and emolument must likewise be in some degree attached to the national Church; which are a strong inducement to its ministers to defend it, be it ever so remote from the truth. The error becomes permanent, and that set of opinions which happens to prevail when the establishment is formed, continues, in spite of superior light and improvement, to be handed down without

1025
alteration from age to age. Turn a Christian Society into an Established Church, and it is no longer a voluntary assembly for the worship of God; it is a powerful corporation, full of such sentiments and passions as usually distinguish those bodies—a dread of innovation, an attachment to abuses, a propensity to tyranny and oppression. Hence the convulsions that accompany religious Reform, where the truth of the opinions in question is little regarded amidst the alarm that is felt for the splendor, opulence, and power which they are the means of supporting. To this alliance of Christianity with civil power it is owing that ecclesiastical history presents a chaos of crimes, and that the progress of religious opinions, which, left to itself, had been calm and silent, may be traced in blood." Yet, in the face of all this, and the wishes of the East-India Company, they were going to establish an alien church in India, at the expense of the natives.
Lord Althorpreprobated the polemical line of argument adopted by the hon. Member, in the course of a debate that had been conducted with so much calmness and moderation. He wished to ask the hon. and learned member for Dublin, whether the answer of his right hon. friend to his remarks was not satisfactory to his views on the subject. Government wished to make such an arrangement as would be satisfactory to all parties, and tend to the extension of Christianity. Under the existing arrangement, the death of a Bishop left India for a very long time without any spiritual superintendence, which the present proposition would obviate. The Government had professed that they were willing, and promised to give every protection to Roman Catholics, and that promise would be kept.
Mr. O'Connellhad been asked a question. In answer, he had to say, that the answer of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Charles Grant) was most satisfactory to him. Though the promise was not an official one, he had every confidence in it, when he thought of the man from whom it fell; a man, whose whole life showed, that it was impossible for him to be insincere.
Sir Robert Inglissaid, the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had requested hon. Members to return to that calmness and charity of spirit which they had testified in the earlier part of the debate. Indeed, they ought to thank the
1026
hon. and learned member for Dublin, who had set them an example on that occasion, as also his right hon. friend, the President of the India Board, who had shown a truly Christian spirit in his observations, and had never done more credit to his feelings than by the declaration which he had that might made. Differing from his right hon. friend as he did in many points, he had double pleasure in agreeing with him thus far when he recollected how much his right hon. friend in his present measures for the Church in India, was following the track of his father, (the late Mr. C. Grant) to whom, perhaps, more than to any other man who had ever been in power the cause of Indian Christianity was indebted. He (Sir Robert Inglis) had always been anxious to maintain his own Church abroad as well as at home; and, where that could not be, to support Christianity in other countries as much as possible, and he should rather see the Roman Catholic religion established in India than heathenism. But there was another class of persons calling themselves Christians, in respect to whom, as they were not before the House, he would not say how far he would or would not be instrumental in introducing their tenets as Christianity in preference to Mahomedan or Heathen worship, nor would be yield to the call of naming this sect, because he would not needlessly provoke controversy; but on the other hand he would not, if necessary, shrink from avowing his opinion on the subject more distinctly, however ripe liberalism might be in that House. It had been stated, that the Court of Directors hold, that the expense of the Church Establishment had been increased from 48,000 l. to 100,000 l. a-year. The Court of Directors had certainly stated, that it was not known what the future expense of the Establishment might be,—not that it had thus increased in consequence of the one Bishop appointed. But, admitting the increase as stated, were we not bound to provide in India the means of glorifying the Creator by increasing his temples and by spreading Christian worship in that part of the British empire? A great number of our young men were yearly sent out to India at so early an age as still to require religious instruction to enable them to withstand the temptations to which they were daily exposed; and should not

1027
Government provide teachers for them? A large number of surgeons for curing the wounds and ailments of the body were maintained, and should not, at the same time, a proportionate number of those be maintained, who could and were ready to cure the ailments of the soul? His right hon. friend thought, that the sum allowed for ecclesiastical purposes in India ought to be differently subdivided. The question, therefore, though worthy of being placed upon higher ground, stood now upon this—the Resolution was, that his Majesty be empowered to subdivide 10,000 l., the amount of allowances now made to the Bishops and Archdeacons; or in other words, to add two bishoprics to the one already existing without increasing the amount of charge on account of ecclesiastical income. When it was recollected, that Bishops of the Greek, the Roman, and the Arminian Churches were all settled in India, surely this country was called upon to make proper provision for the higher classes of our ecclesiastical functionaries, to enable them to discharge their duties in a manner becoming their situation. In the south of India, the number of converts to the Protestant religion had lately been doubled. The hon. and learned member for Dublin had referred to the condition of the people in the island of Ceylon. In their care of religion the Dutch government in that country was indeed worthy of the imitation of every Christian nation; and when the English took possession of the island, there were found, 342,000 Protestants and thirty-two churches in one province only. That circumstance ought to be remembered when any measures connected with our religious institutions were to be framed. Their first object in legislating ought to be, the promotion and extension of christian instruction. He would not divide against the clause as amended, but would have supported it cordially as it had originally stood.
Mr. Humewas convinced, that the suggestion he had thrown out on a former evening to postpone this clause, ought to have been acted on. If they had done that, it was probable that fourteen of the clauses which depended on it, might at least have been dispensed with, He did not precisely understand what his hon. and learned friend (the member for Dublin) wished; but if his hon. friend wished
1028
to have Catholic priests in India to be paid by the inhabitants of India, he could not go along with him. What was that but quartering one sect of priests on the people of a different faith? That was quite contrary to the principle the hon. and learned Gentleman maintained as to Ireland. Was there any justice in making the Hindoos pay the Catholic priests? He was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say, that he did not like a dominant religion; but in fact, a dominant religion was established by the Bill. They had consolation in words, but in deeds they had only causes of sorrow. The Bishops had failed in Ireland—he doubted whether they had succeeded in England; and he asked, therefore, whether it was either wise or consistent to establish Bishops in India? Could it be expected, that Bishops in India would be more useful and efficacious than Bishops had been in England? He conjured the Committee not to act on one principle in England and another in India. He thought, that they had not sufficient information to decide the question; for he believed, that there ought not to have been a Bishop established in India, at the former period of renewing the Charter. There was evidence that it was neither useful nor desirable. The Board of Directors had protested against it; and he therefore said, that the Committee was not in a condition to proceed with this part of the measure. Was there to be a Bishop in India for every thirty clergymen? The present Bishop had so little to do there, that Ceylon, where there were only Dutch Calvinists, had been added to his see, and so had New South Wales. In fact he had so little to do, that it had been proposed to extend his see to the Cape of Good Hope and the Mauritius. And all the expense of the vast Establishment was to be paid by the poor Hindoos. He did not wonder that the proprietors of India Stock remonstrated against this, for they would have no dividend unless there were surplus revenue, and every such establishment diminished the surplus. There was no surplus at present. He thought the whole of this part of the Bill ought to be struck out, as it was most unnecessary and unjust, and he should vote against these clauses.
Mr. Charles Bullerwould join his hon. friend in opposing these clauses, as it was most iniquitous to tax the Hindoos to support the Church of England.
Mr. Cumming Brucemaintained, that the first duty of a State was to support religion; and the best way to support religion was by endowing an Established Church. He hoped, that the Government would persevere in these clauses, and show the party of the Movement, which he considered a small minority, that everything was not to be sacrificed to them. He was not surprised at the opposition of the hon. member for Middlesex, because he had long ago heard that hon. Member say, "It was better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." As a member of the Church of Scotland, he saw in the Bill a great boon in favour of that Church.
It being three o'clock, the House resumed—the Committee to sit again.

PROCESSIONS (IRELAND).
Mr. O'Connell, seeing the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, in his place, begged to know whether he had any objection to lay before the House copies of the correspondence that took place between the Irish Government and certain Magistrates of Enniskillen, in reference to the celebration of the 12th of July? It appeared, at least, from the newspapers, that those Magistrates were involved in the preparatory steps taken for the celebration of that anniversary. It was therefore necessary that the House should be aware of what the conduct of those Magistrates really was. Blood had been shed—and he wished to know from the right hon. Gentleman whether the Roman Catholics were involved in the transaction. No difference existed now, in the eye of the law, between Roman Catholics and Protestants; and if the former misconducted themselves, they ought to be punished with the utmost rigour.
Mr. Littletonhad no objection to the production of the documents, but as the correspondence was still going on, he would suggest the propriety of postponing the Motion until the documents should be complete. With respect to the conduct of the Roman Catholics, under the provocation they received, he had no hesitation in stating, that nothing could be more exemplary than the conduct of the Roman Catholic population of the north of Ireland—and that, they received, on the occasion alluded to the most unjustifiable, unmanly, and unchristian like provocation from the orangemen.
Colonel Percevalsaid, the right hon.
1030
Gentleman might have taken a lesson from the right hon. Gentleman, the Under Secretary for the Home Department, who a few minutes before declined to give any opinion in reference to a transaction that was then in course of investigation by a Jury. As an Orangeman, no person more sincerely deplored the results of the proceedings in Cavan than he did, and he must add, that if his Majesty's Government had but manifested any desire to rely upon the exertions of those who were supposed to have influence with the Orangemen, and had not, by insulting letters goaded them on, no opportunity, he was confident, would have been afforded of drawing down upon them the premature censure of the right hon. Gentleman. Before the day on which the unfortunate processions had taken place, he left nothing undone, so far as his influence as an individual could go, to prevent them from occurring—and he made no doubt, that the exertions of those to whom the Orangemen looked up, and on whom they relied, would have been effectual, were it not that the insulting letters of Sir William Gosset had goaded them on. He could not help taking that opportunity of referring to the Party Processions' Bill of last Session. It was now the law of the land, and it was his duty to carry it into effect; but the mode in which it was past was calculated to aggravate the feelings of the Orangemen. He was told by the then Secretary for Ireland, and the Solicitor General, that the Bill would not be brought before the House that Session. He would not have left London if the Secretary had not told him, that upon his shoulders must rest the responsibility of the Bill not passing that Session. The Orangemen, under these circumstances, thought they were taken unawares, and the Bill was passed in the absence of their friends. These processions, he repeated, would not have taken place, but for the insulting letters of Lord Anglesey's mouthpiece—for he had himself declared, that there was no such person as Sir William Gosset. On the application of a private individual, a Doctor O'Reilly, troops were marched into the district, though the Lord Lieutenant of the county had declared, that the police would be adequate to maintain the peace. He objected most strongly to the Government passing over the recommendation of the head of the country, the Lord Lieutenant, and attending to the

1031
recommendation of a private individual. The hon. and gallant Member concluded by moving for copies of the correspondence alluded to.
Mr. O'Dwyercautioned the House against taking the gallant Colonel as a fair specimen of the Orangemen of Ireland. If they at all resembled him, the atrocious murders which had recently been perpetrated never would have been committed. The speech of the right hon. Secretary would do more to pacify Ireland than fifty Coercion Bills.
Papers ordered.

EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.
Upon the Motion of Mr. Charles Grant, the House again went into Committee upon this Bill. The discussion upon clause 89 was resumed.
Mr. Finchsupported the clause, and contended, that it was necessary for the advancement of religion that there should be an Established Church in India able to meet the increasing Christian population.
Mr. O'Dwyeropposed the clause, and said, that he could see no necessity for increasing the Episcopal Establishment in India. It would be moreover a precedent to extend the Church Establishment all over the British territory.
Sir Matthew White Ridleysupported the clause. It did little more than make an alteration in the title of two clergymen, without increasing the salary of the additional Bishops.
Mr. Ruthvenopposed the clause, at some length, and said, that it would be more fair if all denominations were placed on the same footing. He objected strongly to introducing a Church Establishment into India when this country was groaning under the weight of a Church Establishment.
Lord Morpethsupported the clause. He believed, that he represented a larger number of Dissenters than any other Member in that House; but though he had the greatest respect for their feelings, and though no one looked with more goodwill to the success of independent missions than he did, yet he did not think, that in supporting the present clause he was acting in opposition to the feelings and opinions of his constituents. When he compared the amount of service to be performed, and the extent of country and population over which it was spread,
1032
he did not think that three Bishops were more than sufficient to perform those duties. The change did not propose any additional expense, and he thought the maintenance of an Established Church was a matter of national concern, and of the greatest importance to the British, as well as to the Pagan, or rather Semi Pagan inhabitants of India.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonsaid, the only question before the House was, whether the Episcopal Establishment was to be increased or not? If the question had been whether the Episcopal Establishment was to be introduced into India, he should have voted differently. Two Bishops might possibly be quite sufficient, and he did not pledge himself to the number. The Bishops who had died in India so rapidly, had not died in consequence of excessive labour in their professional duties, but in consequence of the great precariousness of human life in that climate. The consequence of this was, that during the twelve years which had elapsed since Bishops were first appointed in India, for half that time, India had been without any Bishop—an inconvenience which would have been prevented by the appointment of two Bishops. Supposing confirmation to be necessary according to the tenets of the Church of England, it was extremely desirable that there should be a Bishop at all times in India. Whether there should be two or three Bishops, he did not mean to give an opinion; but there ought to be more than one. He did not think there was any hardship in compelling the inhabitants of India to pay not only for the Government which protects them, but also for the religion of that Government. With great submission to the hon. member for the University of Oxford, he must inform him that there was no dominant religion where the British flag was hoisted abroad. In India as elsewhere, the Established Churches of England, Ireland, and that of Scotland, stood upon an equal footing. He, therefore, concurred in this clause to the extent which he had mentioned, but no further, and without holding himself bound to any of the subsequent clauses relative to the Church in India.
Colonel Evansdid not exactly understand the logic of the hon. Member, who argued that he should not have voted for the Establishment of Episcopacy in India, but as there was already one Bishop, he

1033
had no objection to have two more. The hon. Member had also referred to the importance of the rite of confirmation; but considering that there were only 40,000 Christians in India, he (Colonel Evans) thought it too much to subject the natives of that extensive region to such an Establishment for the sake of so small a number.
Mr. Finnobserved, that by and by it would be said, that the present salaries were inadequate to the dignity of the Bishops. Thus the expense would be increased by degrees.
Mr. George F. Youngsaid, he should not have troubled the House if it had not been for some observations of certain hon. Members. It was true that the Bishop of Calcutta, as explained in the preamble, had a most extensive jurisdiction—a jurisdiction to which his attention could not be fully extended; but after all, his jurisdiction would extend 2,000 miles from West to East, and over all that surface an European population would no doubt soon be diffused; and as the extent of Surface over which the Bishops had jurisdiction was made the ground of the present change, the same ground would be equally available for a further extension of the Episcopal Establishment.
The Committee divided on the Clause—Ayes 85; Noes 47: Majority 38.
Clause agreed to.

List of the AYES.

ENGLAND.

Ingham, B.

Adams, E. H.

Inglis, Sir R.

Althorp, Lord

Jermyn, Earl

Baring, F.

Kerry, Earl of

Barnard, E. G.

Lamont, Captain

Bouverie, Captain

Leech, J.

Buxton, T. F.

Lefevre, C. S.

Cavendish, Lord

Lyall, G.

Collier, J.

Macaulay, T. B.

Crawley, S.

Morpeth, Viscount

Divett, E.

Mosley, Sir O.

Ebrington, Viscount

Mostyn, Hn. E. M. L.

Estcourt, T. G. B.

Palmer, R.

Fancourt, Major

Parker, J.

Feilden, W.

Parker, Sir H.

Finch, G.

Pendarves, E. W.

Forster, C. S.

Peter, W.

Goring, H. D.

Petre, Hon. E.

Graham, Sir J.

Phillpotts, J.

Grant, Right Hon. R.

Plumptre, J. P.

Grey, Colonel

Pryme, G.

Grey, Sir G.

Ridley, Sir M. W.

Grosvenor, Lord R.

Rooper, J. B.

Halcomb, J.

Russell, Lord J.

Howard, Hon. F. G.

Scott, Sir E. D.

Hughes, H.

Scrope, P.

1034

Shepherd, T.

Ewing, J.

Stanley, E.

Ferguson, Captain

Strickland, G.

Fergusson, R. C.

Tuncred, H.

Grant, Right Hon. C.

Todd, R.

Johnston, A.

Tracy, C. H.

Mackenzie, J. A.

Troubridge, Sir E.

Macleod, R.

Ward, H. G.

Maxwell, Sir J.

Wilbraham, G.

Maxwell, J.

Williamson, Sir H.

Oliphant, L.

Winnington, Sir T.

Sharpe, General

Wood, C.

Wynn, Right Hon.

IRELAND.

SCOTLAND.

Coote, Sir C.

Hill, Lord M.

Bannerman, A.

Jephson, C. D. O.

Bruce, C. L.

Lefroy, Dr.

Dalmeny, Lord

Macnamara,—

List of the NOES.

ENGLAND.

Romilly, E.

Aglionby, A.

Scholefied, J.

Attwood, T.

Strutt, E.

Bewes, T.

Turner, W.

Briggs, R.

Warburton, H.

Brocklehurst, J.

Wilks, J.

Brotherton, J.

Young, G. F.

Buller, C.

SCOTLAND.

Dykes, F. L. B.

Gillon, W. D.

Evans, Colonel

Murray, J. A.

Ewart W.

Oliphant, L.

Faithfull, G.

Oswald, R.

Fenton, J.

IRELAND.

Fielden, J.

Bellew, R. M.

Gaskell, D.

Blake, M.

Gisborne, T.

Finn, W. F.

Harland, W. C.

Fitzgerald, T.

Hawkins, J. H.

Lynch, A. H.

Hume, J.

O'Dwyer, A. C.

James, W.

Ruthven, E. S.

Lister, E. C.

Ruthven, E.

Marsland, T.

Talbot, J.

Parrott, J.

Vigors, N. A.

Philips, M.

Walker, C. A.

Potter, R.

Wallace, T.

Richards, J.

TELLER.

Romilly, J.

Sheil, R. L.

The 104th Clause, relating to Haileybury College, was then read.
Mr. Wynnthought it adviseable to adjourn this clause, and to leave it open to discussion next Session, or else to refer it to a Select Committee up stairs.
Mr. Charles Grantobjected to delay. The clause involved no principle which required such postponement. Far more important clauses had already been decided by the Committee. The present mode of appointing candidates to civil offices in India, involved the principle of competition, and it was much more advantageous that the appointments to those offices should be open to competition than the subjects of patronage.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonsaid, the College had hitherto proved a great expense to the Company, costing not less than 10,000 l. per annum, whilst it had not produced anything like adequate advantages. If the clause were persisted in, he should certainly take the sense of the Committee upon it.
Mr. Macaulaydefended the present system of education at the College. At no other seminary in England could persons who were candidates for civil offices in India be properly educated. The principle of competition in opposition to patronage was that on which the clause depended, and on that he took his stand.
Mr. Wynndefended his proposition of referring the clause to a Select Committee. The details of the subject required much consideration. He doubted the advantages of the College and of its different professions. The students could not be controlled or restrained at Hailey bury, because they could not be kept wholly out of the town, and over that the principles of the College had no jurisdiction. If the President of the Board of Control were determined to persevere in the system of competition for writer ships in India, he should recommend him to assign two to the University of Oxford, two to that of Cambridge, two to that of Dublin, two to the University of London, and four to the Scotch Universities, in rotation, as the vacancies occurred.
Lord Althorpsupported the clause. The placing of the candidates in Haileybury College, after the examination, would be a means of ascertaining the fitness of the persons to be sent out.
Mr. Warburtonagreed that it was necessary to adopt some system of competition. The question was—whether the system proposed was the best? What would be said, if, at the University, the fellowships were to be granted at the very moment of the students entering into the College? He thought that they ought to admit the principle of competion at the time of their leaving the College, as well as at their entrance. He was sorry that the latter part of Mr. Malthus's plan had not been adopted—that of admitting a great number of young men, who were afterwards to be sent out to India. Instances were frequent of men obtaining distinction at College, and gaining fellowships, who afterwards settled down into college monks.
Mr. Charles Grantsaid, that one of the circumstances which had brought odium upon the College of Haileybury, was that the professors took upon themselves to do what was their duty, and to exercise the power of expulsion in cases of misconduct. The prize, which was snatched from the grasp of a family by the rejection of a son, was so great that the consequence was highly injurious to the reputation of the College. Young men who entered the College of Haileybury, were educated in a manner which was particularly adapted to a situation of a peculiar nature in India, so that the failure in attaining that object rendered the whole expense of money and time which had been devoted to it a complete waste. The system proposed by the hon. Member would have the same effect. He was happy to inform the hon. Member that Mr. Malthus entirely approved of the plan now proposed.
Mr. Humesaid, that nothing which he had heard had removed his impression that it was proper to abolish the College altogether, giving at the same time every opportunity of competition, in order to secure the fittest persons to be sent out to India. Young men brought up there went out quite unfit for their situations, and at the same time imbued with such ideas of their own importance as were extremely injurious to the service.
Clause agreed to.
Colonel Leith Haythen proposed a clause, to the effect "That it be enacted, that of the established chaplains at each Presidency in India, two shall always be ministers of the Church of Scotland, and shall enjoy such salaries as are paid at the time to military Chaplains, provided always, the ministers of the Church of Scotland, so appointed and paid, shall have been ordained and inducted by the Presbytery of Edinburgh, according to the forms of the Church of Scotland; and that they shall be under the Ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Presbytery of Edinburgh, with an appeal to the Provincial Synods of East Lothian and Tweedale, and the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland."
Mr. Wynnwas of opinion, that if a Presbytery could be formed in India, it would be better than to appeal to the Presbytery in Scotland.
Mr. Charles Grantobserved, that a sufficient number of Presbyterian clergymen could not be found for that purpose.
Mr. Humesaid, that by this proposition,

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specifically including one class of Dissenters from the Church of England, they virtually excluded all other classes of Dissenters.
Colonel Hayobserved, that if the hon. Member really wished for the admission to India of all classes of Dissenters from the Church of England, the way to obtain the object was surely not to object to the admission of one class.
Mr. Warburtonhad the same objection to this clause as to that which he had entertained to the clause respecting the Bishops—namely, that he did not think that the Hindoos and Mahomedans should be made to pay for an establishment in which they had no interest.
The Committee divided on the question, that the Clause be inserted Ayes 63; Noes 35: Majority 28.
The House resumed. The Report to be received.

SMALL DEBTS (SCOTLAND).
Mr. Thomas Kennedy Mr. Thomas Kennedy moved the third reading of the Small Debts' (Scotland) Bill.
Mr. Wallacerose to state his objection to the Bill. There were two Judges of the Court; one the Sheriff, the other the Sheriff Depute; one having a moderate salary and doing a great deal of duty, the other having a high salary, and doing little or no duty. The Bill departed also from the sound principle, that Judges should be paid by the Exchequer, and not by fees. By one of the provisions of the Bill, twenty-five per cent was taken from the Sheriffs' clerks as part of the fees in question. He was against all high salaries; and if a proposition were made to reduce such salaries as those of the Lords of the Treasury, it should have his unqualified support. But the clerks in question had, in the first place, been appointed for life, and had, in the second place, purchased their situations. They had also, in many cases, been obliged to allow retiring salaries to their predecessors. Another principle of the Bill was, in effect, taking twenty-five per cent from litigants in one part of the country for the benefit of litigants in other parts. He should therefore conclude by moving, as an Amendment, that the three clauses referring to these points should be omitted.
The Speaker: The Amendment cannot be moved till the Bill has been read a third time.
The Bill was read a third time, and Mr.
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Wallace moved the omission of the three clauses.
Mr. Thomas Kennedysaid, that the emoluments of the Sheriffs' clerks had considerably increased since the local jurisdiction was given to the Sheriffs. This was first done in 1826, and subsequently confirmed in 1830; he could not, therefore, see any reason why the emoluments of the Sheriffs' clerks should not be curtailed if Parliament thought proper. Their emoluments depended entirely upon the Statutes passed, which no one could deny the competency of the Parliament to alter or repeal. The Sheriffs were called on to discharge extra duties; and as they were not now overpaid, it was of course necessary that they should be remunerated. The extra business which would flow from this Bill would more than repay the deficiency occasioned by taxing their incomes twenty-five per cent. That taxation, be it remembered, only applying to that portion of their incomes which springs from the Local Courts' jurisdiction. Thus, in his own county, the Sheriff's clerk had an Income of 900 l. per annum, 300 l. of which arose from local jurisdiction; consequently he would only lose 75 l. per annum, even if he gained no additional income. With regard to the objection to payment by fees, it should be remembered, that by adopting such a plan the Judge was only paid in proportion to the work done.
Captain Gordonthought it most advisable that the hon. and learned Gentleman should postpone his Bill till the Commission now sitting to inquire into this subject should make their report. He would not support the Amendment, neither could he agree to the proposal for taking away twenty-five per cent from the salaries of the clerks of the Courts.
Mr. Humethought, that if the Sheriffs clerks were overpaid, the bettor plan would be to reduce the fees, and then the public would gain the advantage.
Mr. Stewart Mackenzieapproved of the principle of the Bill, but thought sonic of the details very objectionable. In Inverness-shire and Ross-shire he knew it would operate injuriously. The reduction of emoluments of the Sheriffs' clerks would in many cases, prevent respectable and intelligent gentlemen from undertaking such situations.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonsaid, that the fees of the Sheriffs' Court were already

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lower than those of any other Court. The summons cost 6d. only, and the decree no more. The Sheriff's' Court in Scotland might be made the best in the world; it would, however, be much better that causes should be heard by the Sheriff himself in the first instance. No one could grudge the Sheriff the emoluments he received.
Mr. Murraydefended the Bill. The emoluments of the Sheriffs' clerks were raised very high by the local jurisdiction, and he saw no reason why they should not contribute towards the expense of the system from which they derived so much advantage. As their fees were small, it was better to apply a certain portion of them for the public benefit than to reduce them.
Sir John Hayinquired whether the per centage were to be taken solely on the additional fees derived from this Bill? He thought the Bill should be deferred till the Commissioners, one of whom was a Sheriff, had made their report.
Mr. Thomas Kennedysaid, that the per centage would be taken only on the emoluments derived from the local jurisdiction. As to the Commission, the Local Court system was known to be so highly advantageous, that the better plan would be to pass this measure, and give the Commissioners an opportunity of judging of the manner in which the Bill worked. The hon. member for Ross-shire had been made the victim of a clamour raised by the Sheriffs' clerks, by no means creditable to them. Amongst others who had sent letters of complaint, as though he were an injured man, was a gentleman residing in Edinburgh, and who derived an income of 1,000 l. a-year from a place which did not give him the slightest labour.
Bill passed.