Commons Sitting of 22 August 1833

MINUTES.
Papers ordered. On the Motion of Mr. COBBETT, the Number of Persons Imprisoned under the 57th George 3rd, cap. 3rd, &c.
Bills. Read a third time;—Edinburgh Community of Estates Land Tax Commissioners Names; Chancery Officers Regulation.

CONSOLIDATED FUND—APPROPRIATION CLAUSE.
The House, on the Motion of Mr. Spring Rice, resolved itself into a Committee on the Consolidated Fund Bill.
Sir James Grahamrose to move an Amendment to the Act relative to the naval service. By the terms of the Appropriation Act, as it at present stood, all services performed within the year should be paid within that period. Now, it often happened, that sailors who were on a foreign station could not be paid within the year. He should move an Amendment, the object of which was to make the practice and the words of the Act conform to each other. The navy estimates were divided in eighteen votes. Eleven of them could be applied exactly as directed by the Act, but the seven others, including seamen's wages, the cost of victuals, and the freight of convict ships, could not be paid at the moment the quarter became due, for there was often no person to receive the sums due at that moment. He moved an Amendment with a view to meet that difficulty.
The House resumed; Bill reported.

TEA DUTIES.
Mr. Spring Mr. Spring Rice moved the third reading of the Tea Duties' Bill.
Mr. Ewartwished to know whether any arrangement had been made with respect to the sales of tea on hand; and also whether any arrangement had been made with respect to the time ships would be allowed to sail from this country to Canton?
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that it was essential that the stock of tea on hand should be such as would promote not only the interest of the private trader, but the consumer also; and so far from considering that 'there was any conflicting or opposite interests between the consumer, the Government, and the East-India Company, all their interests were bound together. What was desirable was, to reduce the present stock of tea in such a manner as to give free scope to the private trader; but, in his opinion, it would not be desirable to reduce it actually to zero. It was not for the interest of the East-India Company that there should be an accumulation of tea left in their possession, as that would have the effect of distressing the private trader, and exposing him to a competition he did not calculate upon. With respect to the quarterly sales, it was not intended

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that any deviation should take place from the usual course during the next three of them, but that they should be left to the discretion of the Company. After these three sales had taken place, the quantity to be sold would have to be determined by the Board of Control, which would so govern them that a gradual increase would take place in the quantity, whilst the parties interested would be made acquainted with the maximum amount; so that the state of the market would be always fairly known.
Mr. Crawfordsaid, he would not have ventured to have addressed the House at so early a period, if he had not been applied to by the traders resident in the City of London, who were deeply interested in the tea trade. The application made to him was by a highly respectable Committee of Traders, who complained that they had not received any communication of the intended details until after they had been printed and publicly promulgated by his Majesty's Ministers. These gentlemen, and the trade generally, objected to the classification adopted by the Government, as being opposed to the interest of the importers and the consumers. He thought, that his Majesty's Ministers should afford an opportunity for an early reconsideration of the subject, and give time for such communications with the trade as would enable a better classification to be made. The Gentlemen who had applied to him had informed him, that there were eight descriptions of tea, which would come properly under the second class, and be charged at a duty of 2s. 2d.; but which, as they were not now enumerated in that class, would have to pay a duty of 3s. per pound. Besides this, the East-India Company was already exempt from the payment of auction duty, for their teas were disposed of by public sale, and it would be only just that the other importers of tea should be placed upon the same footing. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman, whether, supposing the present Bill to be passed, there would be any objection to an early reconsideration of the subject in the next Session, that the anomalies complained of might be then amended?
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that the House would be aware that the tea trade, in some respects, differed from every other; and that as the Government was, as it were, in actual contact with the parties interested, twenty-four hours need not have elapsed, after the Resolutions were promulgated, before the trade might have
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communicated with the Government thereon. But from the passing of the Resolutions, which took place some time ago, up to that moment, no communication had been made on the subject, excepting that of the hon. Gentleman. He would put it to that hon. Member, whether it would not be pregnant with inconvenience to give any pledge of such a nature as that he had asked? Such a declaration would naturally paralyze the trade, and produce the most serious inconvenience to all parties. It would be open to the hon. Member, or to any other Member of the House, to bring the subject again before Parliament in the next Session; but no pledge could be consistently asked or given, that a Bill to be passed in the month of August should be reconsidered in the February following. The House should remember, that in all the alterations of duty made, reductions had taken place. In the first class it had been reduced from ninety-six per cent to eighty-one; in the second class, from one-hundred to ninety-four and a-half; and in the third class, from one-hundred to eighty-one. And these classes had been determined after communication with several brokers, not one of whom had differed in opinion from the others. If the hon. Gentleman thought an ad valorem duty preferable, he must say, that such a mode of acertaining the duty could not have been practised at the out-ports, where auction sales would not be held under the same security as in the port of London; and giving an ad valorem for a rated duty, which should be alike on all descriptions of tea, would only have tended to increase the price of those inferior teas which were consumed chiefly by the lower orders. The best inquiries which could be made had agreed so well with the experiment made at the Board of Control, as to leave no doubt of the certainty of collecting the duty under the classification made.
The Bill read a third time and passed.

CHANCERY OFFICE BILL.
The Solicitor General, in moving the third reading of the Chancery Office Bill, said, he would shortly state the effects to be produced by the measures now in progress for Reforming the Court of Chancery. Thirteen offices which had long existed, and which were nearly sinecures, were abolished or regulated. The old system upon which these offices were conducted was this—there was the chief sinecurist who did nothing; he appointed a deputy, who was allowed a larger salary than

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what ought to have been allowed to the office altogether. The following was a table of the offices and salaries abolished and reduced:—

Present Income of principal.

Ditto or Deputy, and Expences.

Future Income

saving.

Clerk of Hanaper

£2,800

£550

£200

£3,150

Clerk of Crown

1,100

1,000

800

1,300

Clerk of Patents

810

393

400

805

Registrar of Affidavits

1,800

1,000

1,000

1,800

Clerk of Custodies

1,347

375

200

1,522

Clerk of Presentations

43

100

50

93

Clerk of Dispensations

316

50

266

Patentee of Spa

352

682

1,034

Chan. Wax

1,300

400

60

1,650

Sealer

800

200

50

950

Prothonotary

100

abolished

100

Patentee in Bankruptcy

7,500

1,500

9,000

18,268

6,202

2,800

21,670

The saving thus effected was to be disposed of in the following manner:—9,000 l. to the Suitors, who were to be relieved from fees to that amount; 2,834 l were to be paid to the Suitors' Fund, and he congratulated the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the fact, that 9,736 l. would be paid to the account of the Consolidated Fund. Now, it was to be remembered, that all these offices were in the gift of the Chancellor, and former Chancellors had given them to their relatives. They had even been made the subject of marriage settlements. Two of the offices (the Clerk of the Patents and the Registrar of Affidavits) were held by the brother of the Lord Chancellor, which were to be abolished instantly. The others were to be abolished as they fell in.
The next branch of the Reform applied to the Masters, who upon an average received 3,900. a-year from fees, &c,; they were now to be paid a fixed sum of 2,500 l. a-year each; and as there were ten of them, the saving would be 14,000 l. per annum. The following were the reductions in the Masters' office:—

Present Income.

Future Salaries.

Saving to Public.

Masters' averaging 3,900 l. a-year each

£39,000

£25,000

£14,000

Their Chief Clerks averaging 1,300 l. a-year each

13,000

10,000

3,000

The Master of Report Office

4,300

1,000

3,300

The Registrars and their Clerks

27,800

14,050

13,750

The Two Examiners

2,400

1,400

1,000

£86,500

£51,450

£35,050

It was proposed in future to pay the Masters from the Suitors' Dead Fund, so that the actual saving in all future suits would be the total of the Masters' present income

39,000

Savings by their Chief Clerks

3,000

Savings by Registrars and Clerks

13,750

There would thus be a gross saving to suitors in two Offices alone, of per annum

£55,750

The chief clerks in the Masters' office
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now receive 1,300 l. a-year in gratuities—those gratuities were charged in the bill of costs, and the bill was taxed by the Clerk himself; a plan open to very great abuse. The Masters' salaries were to be paid from the Suitors' Fund. The great complaint hitherto had been of the delay in the Masters' Office; and the great object in view was to make the Masters efficient officers of the Court. The present Masters were most respectable, honourable, and learned men; but former Lord Chancellors, considering their appointments as personal, had appointed to those high and important judicial situations persons whom they dared not have recommended had the appointment been in the King. It was now, therefore, proposed to vest those appointments in the King; and they would henceforward be made by his Majesty, on the responsibility of the King's Government. No doubt the King might act on the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor for the time being; but that officer, with all the Cabinet, would be held responsible for every appointment. By this Bill there were to be particular returns made by the Masters in Chancery to the Lord Chancellor, of the number of hours they have attended their offices, and the general state of causes and other matters in the office, from time to time, so that there would be ample opportunity of ascertaining whether those holding such important judicial situations had properly discharged their official functions. But there were still further improvements in contemplation. When the Bill had been first introduced in the other House of Parliament, it was much more efficient; but there were some parts of the Bill which the noble author of it had been obliged to drop. He (the Solicitor General) hoped, that next Session the public would yet have the benefit of them. Much had been effected by the present Lord Chancellor; and no doubt the public would appreciate the noble and learned Lord's conduct in this matter—for he had met with many difficulties—and award him his due meed of approbation.
Mr. Lynchcongratulated the House on the great and important improvements which had been effected; but he looked upon them only as an instalment of what was due, for much yet remained to be done. He thought it would be a great deal better that the masters and clerks

831
should be paid partly by graduated fees, and partly by salary, as they made their reports and signed their certificates. He intended to propose two Amendments; one to the effect that the Lords of the Treasury, to whom the matter was to be referred, to consider what compensation should be given to those whose offices were to be abolished, should make their report within six calendar months after the passing of the Act; and the other, that the Commissioners, in their investigations, should have the power to determine whether, from the nature of certain offices, or the mode of accession thereto, any conditions could properly be imposed as to non-compensation. It was well known, that there were certain offices, such, for instance, as those in the Report Office, which were filled in gradation by the clerk, who paid on entry 1,000 l.; and, from time immemorial, as higher offices fell vacant, the clerks had risen, till they became masters in that office.
Mr. Harveycould not, on the present occasion, withhold the expression of his sincere though humble thanks, for the alterations which had been made by this Bill in the Chancery offices. He congratulated the House the more on the great and substantial improvements which had been effected, inasmuch as it was impossible for them to conceive the great difficulties with which those who had done so much had been surrounded. Although he highly appreciated the measure in a financial point of view, he trusted that it was only subordinate to great improvements that were still to take place, and was to be looked upon only as an earnest on the part of that distinguished individual who held the highest office in the law of his substantial, sincere, and honest desire to make this Court one which he proved in reality, and not in name, a Court of Equity.
The Bill read a third time—Clauses added and Bill passed.

TITHES—STAY OF SUITS.
On the Motion of Mr. Blamire, the House went into Committee, on this Bill.
Mr. Blamire Mr. Blamire moved a clause to be substituted for that which now stood as the first clause in the Bill. The object of the Amendment was to introduce some words that were better calculated to effect the object of the Bill than those which now formed the clause.
Mr. Aglionbygave his support to the object
832
of the Bill; but, at the same time, he thought that actions to which there was no valid defence should not be stayed till nest year. He, therefore, proposed to insert a clause, the object of which was, that no action, the subject of this Bill, should be stayed, except upon an application to the Court in which it was pending, founded upon an affidavit, declaring that the defence was bonâ fide. In confirmation of the statements made as to the effect of these actions upon the parishioners, of the clergy bringing them, he took that opportunity to state, that he knew an instance in which a great many actions for tithes had been brought in one parish, and the consequence was, that the parish Church had been almost deserted. On one occasion there was but one person present besides the Minister and his clerk.
Mr. Harveythought, that this was one of the most injudicious Bills that had ever been submitted to Parliament, for it was a direct interference with the rights of private property. Every person who fancied that he had a clain for tithes should have the opportunity of instituting proceedings in a Court of Law to recover it. It was to be regretted that so many claims had been brought forward at once; but that arose from necessity, and not one of these claims but was based upon the law. It would be impossible for any plaintiff, whether he proceeded in a Court of Law or in a Court of Equity, to establish a title to tithes which for years had been dormant, to succeed when it became an issue before a Jury. The weight of prejudice he would have to contend with would be such as to make it necessary for him to show not merely the legality, but the righteousness of the demand, before he could proceed. If they were to legislate upon it, why not legislate in the most efficient manner? Why not at once suspend all the proceedings that had taken place within a given period to the next Session of Parliament? He took it for granted the present Bill was the herald of good things to come, and that it was intended these evils should be put a stop to by some wholesome legislation, which would at once extinguish all the causes. If that were so, why not at once suspend all proceedings under writs which had been issued, he would say within the last two months? He really thought the present measure, when it came to be reflected upon, was fraught with danger and difficulty. In his opinion, tithes were a species of property which certainly

833
did not belong to the landlord. If they did not belong to the Church, they did not belong to the landlord; but they were a property; and he was extremely sorry to see landholders endeavouring to excite feelings which must fritter away the value of tithes, that they might have their land tithe free. He did not think this Bill necessary; for all those who knew what the business of the Courts was, must know, that it was quite impossible that any of those suits could be determined before the great measure had been adopted that was to regulate tithes for the future. If, however, the Bill was to be agreed to, he thought, that all tithe suits instituted within two months should be tied up till after the beginning of the ensuing Session of Parliament.
The Solicitor Generalcongratulated the Church and the clergy on their new defender, and hoped, that the recently formed friendship of the hon. members for Oxford University, and Colchester, in defence of the Church, might prove lasting. He agreed, that tithes were a property, but then they were to be dealt with as other property. Now land could not be recovered after twenty years' quiet possession, and it was only proposed that a custom of paying tithes in a particular manner should not be disturbed after it had existed for sixty years. That was the object of Lord Tenterden's Act; but the clause which had given rise to those actions was one that, in fact, defeated the whole object of that Act. Under that clause, the law being the same as before that Act passed, and by the law, though a modus might be shown to have existed for hundreds of years, if it could not he proved to have had its origin before the time of legal memory, it was bad. Within the last two years, a modus of that sort had been set aside. He did not call that justice, but gross injustice.
Mr. Cobbettsaid, he had a precedent for the Bill, and one, too, to which the clergy were parties. In 1796 or 1797, upwards of 1,000 actions were commenced in the King's Bench against clergymen for penalties for non-residence; and what did the clergy do? Come forward and pay the penalties, and so stop the suit? No, they came before the then Parliament, and got the actions stayed for a year. Next year the same, and the next year again. Then, in 1802, Parliament did what he hoped that House would do next Session—quash the actions entirely; and as it then relieved the clergy from the penalties, would now
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relieve the people from the payment of tithes. It was idle to talk of its being an invasion of the principles of Jaw, for the case was one of strong necessity.
Mr. William Broughamagreed with hon. Members, that the Bill was an infraction of the law; but was it not also a case of the strongest necessity? The number of actions had been multiplied so enormously, that great injustice must be the consequence if the Bill were not passed. He was informed that, in the Exchequer alone, there had been upwards of 4,000 writs issued within the last two years, making, with those in other Courts, 8,000 in all—if ever there was a case of stern necessity that was it. He would ask, what right the Rector of Kendal had to 10,000 l. a-year of tithes? He must be beat in nine out of every ten of the actions. It was clear, that they had only been commenced in order to save the right which otherwise Lord Tenterden's Act would have taken away. He should be sorry to interfere between justice and those who would have brought their actions, if Lord Tenterden's Act had never passed, but as the suits in question had been instituted, as he believed, merely for the purpose of defeating the operation of that Act, the easiest, fairest, and most convenient method of proceeding would be, to suspend them till next Session, or some more distant period.
Clause agreed to. The rest of the clauses were agreed to. The House resumed.

THE POLICE—POPAY.
Mr. Cobbett, in rising to bring forward his Motion relative to the Report of the Committee on Dean's Petition against Popay, the spy, said, it was not his intention to say anything that might irritate or annoy his Majesty's Ministers. The people ought to be, and he believed were, satisfied with the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers, as far as related to the inquiry upon that petition, at least, as far as the matter had already gone. But it ought not to stop at the point of inquiry—the Ministers were expected to do something more. Every allegation in the petition had been proved to the satisfaction of the Committee, and, as the members of that Committee would declare, the witnesses in support of the petition bad behaved in the most correct and proper manner, it must be in the recollection of the House, that Sir Charles Worsley had been imprisoned and lined for using words much less seditious than those used by Popay, and certainly with no such

835
base and despicable intention; and yet this Popay—this criminal—was walking about the streets, apparently without the slightest fear of punishment. The people would naturally ask whether this were proper or just; and if this man ought not to be prosecuted for sedition? If he were not, justice would not be done, and the Solicitor-General would not do his duty. If he were not prosecuted, the people would say that the Government was anxious to screen these wretches, or was afraid to proceed against them, lest they should reveal something which might affect the Government. The crime could be proved—the witnesses were ready—and why not have the criminal brought before the Jury? Before the Committee he had made such a shuffling defence, that every member was convinced of his guilt. If, then, this man should escape, what would be the opinion of the people? This was all he should say on that subject; but leave his Majesty's Ministers to do what, after such statements, they might think was right. But Popay was not the only man who should be punished. The superintendent, Mr. M'Lean, had been guilty of the greatest prevarication before the Committee. At first he denied having paid the spy any money, but was afterwards obliged to confess that he had paid him money. His evidence was a shuffle from beginning to end. This was the superintendent who dismissed a cowkeeper very cavalierly, when the latter complained, that a police serjeant had feloniously stolen his milk. A pretty sample this was, of what might be expected from these worthies forming a rural police. Why, they might as well send down as many milk maids into the country; for there would not be a cow left unmilked by these precious rural guardians. It was all too much of a piece in these police matters; for Popay was unpunished, and M'Lean and the felon who stole the milk still retained their situations. He could not, however, sit down without mentioning the case of Mr. William Dean. In doing this, be must say, that the Commissioners had not conducted themselves before the Committee in the manner that was expected. It was they who brought up the name of Mr. Dean in the Committee; for Mr. Dean had nothing to do with the Committee. The Commissioners introduced his name by saying, that they had dismissed him, after two years' service, for some observations he had made relative to the Cal thorpe-street affair. Mr. Dean might have
836
acted indiscreetly in what he had said; but the Commissioners acknowledged that they had dismissed him from the Police, into which he entered with a most excellent character, and after he had satisfactorily fulfilled the duties of serjeant, without putting him upon his defence, or confronting him with his accusers. This he considered to be most indefensible partiality; for if the man who stole the milk was kept in the Police, surely this respectable man ought not to have been dismissed, for a hasty, inconsiderate, or indiscreet expression. The hon. Member concluded, by moving for a Copy of the Order dismissing W. Dean from the Police.
Colonel Evans, although he had great objections to the system of police, felt it his duty to bear testimony to the unimpeachable characters of both the Commissioners, especially Colonel Rowan, with whom he was personally acquainted. As to the case of the spy, which had been adverted to by the hon. member for Oldham, a clearer case had never been made out, and he could not believe that the superintendent was ignorant of the man's proceedings. He hoped that Government would take into consideration the propriety of visiting this man's conduct with something further than dismissal. With respect to Mr. M'Lean, he did not consider him fit to hold his present situation, for he was in the habit of employing as many as twenty persons in plain clothes. Such conduct could not be too strongly deprecated, and he must say, that it tended greatly to increase the prejudices against the police-system. The expense, too, of the system was much greater than that of the old. The whole expense of the watch, in the districts where the police were now stationed, was 137,000 l.; the police force, however, during the last year, had cost no less than 215,000 l. There was no doubt great objection to the old system, but, in his opinion, it only required modification. Such a course had been adopted in the city of London, and had been productive of the best effect. There was also very just complaints with respect to the viligance of the police; robberies were continually being committed, the perpetrators of which could not be discovered, and the servant of a friend of his was the other night robbed near St. Martin's church, when no policeman was to be found. It would be well worthy the consideration of Government, whether a modification could not take place in the force, such for instance,

837
as giving some control to the local authorities.
Mr. Lambsaid, that, with regard to the case alluded to by the hon. member for Oldham, he was of opinion that it called for the interference of the Secretary of State. The proof of Popay being a spy was certainly complete, with the exception of that part of the assertion which related to the recommending assassination, but he (Mr. Lamb) had been advised that he could not succeed in prosecuting him in Court, unless he relied on the odium that generally attended spies—for that reason he did not think it his duty to prosecute him, but he wished it to be known that Popay was dismissed from the police. With regard to Mr. Wm. Dean, whose offence was that of having expressed very strong opinions respecting the Calthorpe street meeting, where he was not present, when he was examined, his language was so violent as to induce a belief that his mind was affected. As to what had been said by the gallant Officer, about policemen being employed in plain clothes, it certainly did appear that twenty of them had been so employed at different times, for the purpose of detecting felonies, but the twenty had never been employed all at one time. It was to be recollected, that before this force was formed at all, all the officers that were employed were nothing more nor less than policeman in plain clothes. It had been very much considered by Sir Robert Peel, whether they ought to wear uniform or not; and, upon the whole, it was considered better that they should wear uniform. Although this had been so decided, it would be impossible for them to leave off wearing plain clothes altogether. As to the ex pence of the police, the accounts were regularly laid on the Table, and it was to be hoped the rates in future would not press so heavily as to be the source of any prejudice against the police.
Mr. Warburtonthought, the hon. member for Oldham was entitled to the thanks of the House, for bringing forward the Motion. He considered Mr. M'Lean's conduct to be such as to deserve severe censure; and he doubted much whether he ought to be continued in the service. With regard to the conduct of the Commissioners, in their peremptorily dismissing any person from the police, it was but proper that they should have such a power; and, looking at Dean's conduct, he could not say that he had been improperly dismissed. The hon. member for Oldham had
838
certainly proved a strong case of espionage against Popay, and he was very properly dismissed. The reports which that man was constantly making to his superiors, ought to have convinced them that he was greatly exceeding his duty, for it appeared that he reported the speeches of one of the hon. members for Southwark, and another for Middlesex, at public meetings, and he ought to have been checked long ago.
Mr. Hawessaid, the House and the public ought to feel indebted to the hon. member for Oldham, for the manner in which he had brought those proceedings forward. There was no doubt that Popay well deserved the appellation of a spy, and he thought that the superintendant was very remiss in his duty, for not exercising proper vigilance over Popay, who, it was proved, had attended meetings of the National Union. With respect to the Commissioners, he knew of no two men of more honourable character. As to the expense of the New Police, the hon. and gallant officer (Colonel Evans) had underrated the real amount of the old police, for the Trustees of the Roads paid the expense of watching those roads formerly, and that the public did not know the amount of; whereas these roads were now watched by the New-Police.
The Solicitor Generalapproved of the dismissal of Popay, against whom such a case had been established, that it would be disgraceful to continue him on the police. Whether any further punishment should be inflicted upon him or not, was a different thing. The House should recollect what a flagellation he had got from the hon. member for Oldham, and he hoped, therefore, that the hon. Member would think that all-which it was necessary to do had been done.
Lord Hothamsaid, that without involving other cases in the present, he thought the police force of the metropolis and its vicinity highly valuable, and he would, therefore, add his testimony to that of the hon. member for Lambeth. The only object of the Commissioners must be to carry into effect the intentions of the Legislature and the directions of the Executive Government. The more the system was inquired into, the more the public would be satisfied that great praise was due to those individuals, in the discharge of a duty equally invidious and laborious. He did not deny that the system might be improved; but it was to him, and, he believed, to others, a matter of surprise, that so little

839
cause of just complaint had been discovered during the existence of the police establishment.
Mr. Cobbettwished only to say a few words in reply, particularly on the charge of prevarication he had formerly brought against the Commissioners. By prevarication he meant shuffling, and it was established by the testimony taken before the Committee. In their conduct, as regarded Popay, he attributed to them nothing more than laziness; he charged them with not making themselves duly acquainted with facts; for had they known them, they could not have kept such an odious wretch in their employ. He was convinced, that a bad impression would be produced on the minds of the people, unless a fit degree of vigilance were kept up, in order that criminals and persons unworthy their situations might be dismissed from the force.
The hon. Member withdrew his Motion.