Commons Sitting of 1 August 1833

MINUTES.
Papers ordered. On the Motion of Mr. LITTLETON, the several Bills of Costs furnished to the Crown in all Cases, since 5th July, 1831, by the Crown Solicitors in Ireland, with an Account of all Monies paid on Account of them.—On the Motion of Mr. FINN, an Account of 1st. The Balance arising from the Remittance of Public Money to and from the Irish and British Exchequers, from 1793 to 1833: 2nd. Also, the Debts of Great Britain and Ireland, in 1792, 1801, and 1816: 3rd. The total present Expenditure of Ireland, including Debt, Army, Pensions, Civil List, Miscellaneous Estimates, and all Disbursements payable out of the Imperial Revenue: 4th. The Revenue of Ireland, and of Great Britain, in the years ending 5th January, 1801, and 5th January, 1817: 5th. The Exports and Imports of Great Britain and Ireland, in Official Value, in the years ended 5th January, 1793, 5th January, 1801, and 5th January, 1817: 6th The Consumption of Wine, Spirits (Foreign and Home-made), Sugar, Coffee, Tobacco, Tea, and Malt, in Great Britain and Ireland, in the years ending 5th January, 1801, and 5th January 1817: 7th. The Tonnage of the Irish Ports in the last year.—On the Motion of Mr. HUME, the Number of Africans Liberated and Landed at Sierra Leone, since the Abolition of the Slave Trade: also Copies of the several Minutes of Council made at the Presidency at Madras by Sir Thomas Munro, Mr. Lushington, &c. on the subject of Extending the Trial by Jury to Natives in Criminal Cases.—On the Motion of Mr. O'DWYER, the Names of all Captains and Commanders of the Royal Navy appointed to Ships, or to any Situations under the Admiralty, from July 1st, 1830, to July 1st, 1833, and of all Midshipmen now serving in his Majesty's Ships of War who had passed their Examinations for Lieutenants before 1823: also the Names and Rank of the several Officers Employed in the Packet Establishment at Falmouth, showing the Seniority and Services of each Officer together with the Pay and other Emoluments: of the Amount of the Freights of Specie carried by each Packet, between 1st January, 1832, and 1st January, 1833, showing the Sum received by each Commander of a Packet: of the Number of Passengers, &c., conveyed by each Packet, between 1st January, 1832, and 1st January, 1833.—On the Motion of Mr. Alderman THOMPSON, the Amount of Duty received from Sea Policies of Insurance, from January, 1832, to January, 1853: also the total Cost, Charges, and Expenses of the Coast Guard: of the Names of the Captains and Commanders Employed in the Preventive, or Coast Guard Service, on 1st July, 1833; and of all Captures and their Value, made by the Coast Guard Service since its Establishment.
Petitions presented. By Mr. HUME, from the Carse of Gowrie,
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for a Revision of the system of Taxation, and the Repeal of the Corn Laws.; from Arbroath, against the Bankrupts (Scotland) Bill; from Brechin, for a National System of Education; from the Glasgow Political Union, for the Repeal of the Act of Charles 2nd, which Restored to the Bishops their Seats in the Upper House; from Brockdish, for the Abolition of Tithes; from a Number of the Labouring Classes, for an Amendment of the Poor Laws,—By Lord ASHLEY, and Mr. TODD, from several Places,—for the Better Observance of the Lord's Day.—By Lord ASHLEY, from Cupar, in favour of the Factories' Regulation Bill; and from two Places in Dorsetshire, for the Amendment of the Sale of Beer Act.

EQUALIZATION OF SUGAR DUTIES.
Mr. Ewartrose to move a resolution, "that it is just and expedient to admit the sugar and coffee of our East-India possessions (the produce of free labour) on equal terms with the sugar and coffee of the West Indies and Mauritius." He referred to the grant which had only last night passed the House, which the present age deemed an act of generosity, which after-times might designate as an act of prodigality; but, under either title, the claims of the country for more unrestricted commerce were confirmed by it, and he thought it gave to the subject now before them a peculiar claim to the consideration of Parliament. The principle that no disadvantageous distinction of duty should prevail against our eastern colonies, was conceded in the case of certain articles. Why should it not be conceded in the case of colonial produce generally? Wheat and flour, the produce of India, came in under equal duties with the wheat and flour of Canada. Why should our East India sugar pay 32 s., while our West-India sugar paid 24 s. per cwt? Why should the coffee of Hindostan pay 9d. per lb. while West Indian coffee paid only 6d., and East-India rum be liable (if introduced) to a duty of 15 s. per gallon, while West India rum was admissible at 9s. 3d? He called the attention of the House to the great difference in the amount of our East and West-India produce. Returns recently laid before the House showed, that last year, the West Indies and Mauritius sent us about 4,000,000 cwt. of sugar, while the boundless regions of India sent only about 88,000cwt. So of coffee. The coffee last year imported from the West Indies amounted to about 24,500,000 lb.; while all the coffee imported from our eastern colonies did not amount to half that importation. Was there not a probability that a diminution of duty would increase the supply from India? He would refer, as an illustration of that

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supposition, to the immense increase of sugar in the Mauritius since the reduction of the duty on Mauritius sugar, in 1825. The production in the Mauritius was now nearly five-fold what it was in that year. With regard to coffee, it was a common subject of observation, that, since the duty was lowered to 6d. per lb. in 1824, the consumption had immensely increased. But, if there had been no restrictive duty, he (Mr. Ewart) maintained that the increase would have been much more considerable. The demand of the consumer of this country was pent in, and circumscribed within the narrow limits of the West Indian supply. The consumption would have been much greater but for this restriction. The consumption of the United States had enormously increased, and far exceeded our own. This he attributed to the reduction of the duties, and the freedom of the trade in that country. Almost all the foreign coffee which we import into this country is now re-exported: very little enters into home consumption. Formerly the greatest portion of our West-Indian coffee was re-exported: it now is almost the exclusive support of our home-market. The country, he maintained, would use more coffee if it were more liberally admitted. The consumption was limited, simply because coffee could not be procured with facility, not because the people did not want it. He maintained, that Brazil coffee and St. Domingo, of equally good quality with Jamaica coffee, could be supplied to this country one-third cheaper than the coffee of Jamaica. He asked why they did not give facilities to the admission of both the sugar and the coffee of those countries? Why, above all, did they not give facilities to the admission of those articles from Hindostan? The connexion of that great region with this country, gave it a peculiar claim to every possible relief. It might be said, that India could not supply us with sugar or with coffee. If so, why need our West-India colonists fear its competition? But, if there ever was a time, when it was expedient to encourage the labour of India, it was now, when that vast country was opened to British enterprise, industry, and science. He (Mr. Ewart) thought that the cultivation of sugar and coffee in India might be materially increased. He drew his inference on this subject from the evidence now on the Table of the House. Dr. Wallick, an eminent naturalist, when
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examined before the revenue sub-committee on the affairs of India, was asked "What are the products of India most likely to be of commercial importance? "He answers" "Sugar, cotton, coffee, silk, indigo and tobacco." "Do you name them in the order of their importance?" He answers, "I place sugar before Indigo, because indigo is limited in consumption; sugar perfectly unlimited." Mr. Gisborne (a most competent witness) says, that the sugar cane of India is as good as that of the West-Indies. Mr. Holt Mackenzie (a most distinguished witness) says "as far as my judgment goes, the manufacture of sugar appears to be very ill-conducted in India; and the land for the sugar-cane is very abundant." He conceived that the produce of sugar might be extended by a proper mode of manufacture. Other witnesses (both before the Lords and Commons) gave similar evidence. With respect to coffee, it was originally itself an eastern product. The first coffee taken to the West Indies was conveyed by the Dutch from Batavia to Surinam. Mr. Sullivan (in the evidence before the committee in 1831) is asked, "Has the cultivation of coffee been introduced among the Ghauts?" He answers "To a very considerable extent, and it is found to answer extremely well." Other witnesses gave similar evidence respecting Coimbettore. Dr. Wallick also said, that the lower provinces of Bengal and the Burmese territories, were particularly suited to the growth of coffee. The truth was, that time alone was requisite for the extension of these productions. For this very reason we ought to give immediate facilities for the cultivation of them. But he (Mr. Ewart) asked for these facilities on another ground. Had not the people of England a right to the best procurable article at the lowest exchangeable price? Had not our merchants this right, as an exchange for their exports?—our manufacturers, as an exchange for their fabrics? Above all, was not this concession due to the consumer? If there was one disease of our commerce more peculiar than any other, it was the difficulty of procuring returns. It appeared by the petitions before that House, that, while we exported 3,000,000 l. worth of our manufactures to Brazil the high duties on Brazilian produce enabled us to bring back very little in return. Foreign merchants and foreign vessels displaced

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our own. Why did we not give facilities to the importation of the sugar of Siam and of China? Sugar was successfully cultivated in those countries. Sugar refining was first practised by the inhabitants of the province of Fokien, in China. But, above all, he asked, why we did not give facilities to the labour of India? It had a paramount claim on our sense of justice, as well as on our feelings of personal interest. The simple and primitive manufactures of Hindoostan had been overwhelmed by the gigantic machinery of Manchester. The capital and skill of England had supplanted the early and rude productions of unimproved art. If we had deprived the Hindoos of the resource of their simple manufacture, ought we to deny them the privilege which nature gave them, of supplying us with the growth of their fertile and unbounded plains? He appealed to the Parliament of this country,—he appealed to the Government on behalf of India as well as of England; and, he believed, that though not at first entirely successful, he should not finally appeal in vain. He concluded by moving the resolution.
Lord Althorpconsidered the motion to be one of that kind which it was desirable the House should not entertain. He thought it would be most inexpedient for the House to come to a decision on this question at the present time. It was, as yet, impossible to foresee what might be the effects of the measure for the abolition of slavery in the West Indies, and, therefore, he thought it would be premature for the House to legislate at the present time, on the subject introduced by the hon. Member. In former times, when this question had been brought under the consideration of the House, the case stood in a very different situation from that in which it was now placed. At those periods the sugar of the West-Indies very much exceeded in quantity the consumption of this country, and he therefore always thought that the proprietors of the West-Indian colonies were more apprehensive than necessary, of the admission of foreign sugar. The price of their sugar in this country depended on the price which sugar bore on the continent; and, therefore, they had no effectual monopoly in this country. The case had now, however, assumed a very different appearance. In consequence of the operation of the Slavery Abolition Bill, there might be a
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great falling off in the production of sugar, and it would not be wise to legislate on this question until the effect of that measure was seen. The hon. Member might, perhaps, say that his Motion went merely to declare the expediency of equalizing the duties on sugar and coffee; but he (Lord Althorp) need not tell the hon. Gentleman, that, if the House carried his Motion, it ought to be followed by some practical effect, and that must be an alteration in the existing law. He trusted, therefore, that the House would not, by acquiescing in the Motion, bind itself at the present moment to any alteration of the law. He did not mean to give any opinion, or pledge himself in any way on this question; and not wishing to meet the Motion with a negative, the only mode left him of dealing with it was by moving the previous question.
Mr. Lyallsupported the original Motion. Justice to India, the markets of which were completely glutted with British manufactures, demanded its success. He was determined next Session to bring the whole question of the fiscal regulations, between this country and India under the consideration of the House.
Mr. Davenport, as the representative of a populous and extensive manufacturing district, felt bound to support the resolution of the hon. member for Liverpool, but he would only trouble the House by referring to one of those simple facts to which the hon. Member had drawn the attention of the House. In that populous district which he had the honour to represent, the articles of sugar and coffee, and he might also add tea, had become almost as much the necessaries of life as the article of bread itself, and he should, therefore, vote for any measure which would tend to give them at a cheaper rate. He confessed he felt some alarm when he heard the noble Lord (Althorp) give notice that he should provide for the large sum voted to the West-India interest, by a duty on colonial produce, but he entreated the noble Lord, if such was his intention, that the articles of sugar and coffee might be exempted. Another important object to which he begged attention, and he thought the House would consider it deserving of attention, was, that cheap sugar, and cheap coffee and tea, would do more towards remedying the evils of beer-shops and gin-shops than any other measure whatever. On these grounds he

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should vote for the resolution now before the House.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonsaid, that he quite agreed with the object proposed by his hon. friend's resolution, for he thought that it would be inexpedient eventually to prevent the East-India merchants from sending over produce on the same terms as West-India merchants; and he only opposed its adoption because he considered that present circumstances were not propitious to its being followed up.
Mr. Ewartwas rejoiced to hear the noble Lord was not pledged on this great question. Relying on the practice as well as the professions of the Government, he would trust to that assurance, and not press his motion to a division.
Motion withdrawn.

CORPORATIONS.
Mr. James Kennedyhoped, that, in consequence of the Motion he was now about to bring forward, he should obtain from the Ministers a satisfactory explanation of the course they intended to pursue. Though there were many evils in this country, some of which were more burthensome perhaps than those of Corporation abuses, there were none which more required remedy. The existence of these evils, and their nature had already been shown by the Committee which had sat on this subject. In his opinion they could only be remedied by a reform similar in spirit to that which had taken place with regard to the election of Members of Parliament. His plan, therefore, was, to give to every 10 l. householder who had a right to vote for representatives the right of voting for the Magistrates who were to administer the laws of the particular district in which he resided. At present, the local Magistrates were generally appointed in consequence of a system of nomination; and being perfectly irresponsible, were able to abuse the powers with which they were intrusted. In whatever was proposed for the public advantage, especially in the way of improvement of what was old, they did not meet the people with a becoming spirit. The effect of his plan would be to remedy this evil. He was aware, that this was a late period of the Session at which to introduce such a proposition, but he thought that it was not too late for them to express their opinion on the subject. This was not a Resolution pledging the House to any particular course, but he had a Bill which
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he hoped the House would allow to be introduced and read a first time, that the country might have sufficient reason to believe that some measure of the same kind would be introduced in the early part of next Session. He hoped, that the Ministers would then take up the subject, and promise a measure of at least as much efficiency as that which he wished to introduce to their notice. He was quite sure that the Motion he was bringing forward was in accordance with the wishes of the people generally, and of his own constituents in particular; and if in pressing it for their consideration he was going further than was consistent with his own individual interest, he hoped his constituents would consider it as an instance of his readiness to sacrifice that interest to their advantage. The hon. Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill to give to those having a right to vote for Members of Parliament the right of electing the Magistrates of their Corporation.
Colonel Sealeseconded the Motion, and observed, that this Corporation Reform would carry into full effect the object of the Parliamentary Reform Bill. Corporations would then be more likely than they were now to second the views of a popular Minister.
Mr. Vernon Smithsubmitted to the hon. Member opposite to consider whether it was worth while to press this Bill upon the House. To some of the propositions of the Bill he should decidedly object; and he confessed at once, that he had no wish to give a political bias to Corporations. There were especially two grounds of objection to the Bill—first, that it was proposed to be confined to boroughs having the right of returning Members of Parliament; and secondly, that it was not meant to extend it to Ireland. He thought, that before any measure on this subject was agreed to, they should wait for the Report of the Commissioners to inquire into Corporations. But for these general reasons, he should not wish to delay the Bill, for it was one that would completely suit the opinions of the constituency he had the honour to represent. But he thought they should not legislate without information, when they had the means of obtaining it. The Commissioners would give them a valuable fund of information, by the aid of which they might be able advantageously to legislate next Session.

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From the specimen they had before the Corporation Committee, he believed there would be plenty of evidence; but if persons belonging to Corporations attempted to withhold their evidence, he trusted the Commissioners would strongly notice the fact. For himself, he should consider their wilful silence to be evidence against, and should so report it, of course not intending the House to be finally bound by the Report. Another objection to this Bill was, that it would not be applicable even to all the represented boroughs. Berwick was an instance of this—it was as republican a borough as could be wished—yet that Corporation required Reform. The Corporation of Berwick paid all the taxes out of borrowed money, and kept all the revenues to themselves. Again, he urged the necessity of delay, till full information was obtained.
Mr. Parrottsaid, that a great deal of interest was felt throughout the country on the subject of this Motion. He trusted that his Majesty's Ministers would take effectual measures between this and the next Session of Parliament, to prepare a remedy for the abuses of Corporations; for these abuses were, in many cases, very great. No individual would be more grateful to Ministers than himself, nor any constituency be more pleased with such a measure than that which he had the honour to represent.
Lord Althorpsaid, that his object in moving for a Committee this year was to lay the foundation for such a measure. A Commission was now appointed to inquire into the existing nature of Corporations, and he hoped that their inquiries would be made and concluded before the next Session of Parliament. No man could be more convinced than he was of the necessity of making a Reform in Corporations, and he should be sorry to remain a member of any Government who would not attempt it.
The Solicitor Generalthought, that the state of the new constituencies should be placed within the scope of the inquiries of this Commission. The borough which he had the honour to represent did not labour under the evils of the old Corporations, but it stood in need of a new constitution. There were Magistrates connected with that borough against whom he would say nothing, for they were not present to defend themselves. It appeared to him, however, that a new constitution was ne-
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cessary for that borough. There was no returning officer for it save the nominee of the Sheriff. Now, several evils arose from that circumstance; at the last election, between the day fixed for the election and that fixed for the poll, the person nominated by the Sheriff met with a serious accident, and from his being unable to act, there was great danger that the election would be voided. Expresses were instantly sent to the Sheriff; but even then there was a doubt as to the validity of a return made by other persons than the first nominee. Now, he thought that there should be a mayor of Dudley, to prevent the recurrence of such accidents, and he hoped before long that a good constitution would be given to such places as were not incorporated.
Mr. Kennedy, after what had fallen from the noble Lord, would withdraw his Motion.
Motion withdrawn.

CORPORATION OF DUBLIN.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that something which had occurred in the discussion of the last Motion made him anxious to introduce the Bill of which he had given notice. It had been observed, that in the Bill that had been just now the subject of discussion, Ireland was not included. Why, the Corporations of Ireland were so various in their constitutions, that it was impossible for any general Bill to be made applicable to all of them. The Corporation of the city of Dublin depended upon no one single form of Constitution, but every form united; so that without putting an end to it entirely, and making another, there would be no means of making it the subject of a general Bill. But in his opinion this should not be done, for it had all the elements of good government, and they wanted nothing but the proper means of remedying particular defects. The objection to the Corporation was, that it was not the Corporation of the city of Dublin, but of a small part of Dublin. It was the Corporation of a persuasion and a party. The remedy was, to make it the Corporation of Dublin generally, for it was the inhabitants at large who were liable to be called on for the means by which the town was to be maintained and protected. The elections of Magistrates had been popular up to the time of the usurpation. Two or three attempts had been made to deprive the people of that power; but they

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had been defeated. At that time, however, the whole of the power of Government was thrown into the hands of the Board of Aldermen, who had, at the same time, the privilege of self-election given them; in other words, they filled up their numbers by their own election, in consequence of which the influence of the people over them was completely destroyed. Things continued in that state up to 1759, when the Legislature interfered, and gave the right of election of the Corporation officers to the citizens at large, but accompanied that gift with the condition of oaths, which prevented many from availing themselves of the privilege thus conferred. The Corporation had consequently become corrupt in two ways; first, by the gradual dropping off of the old freemen; and next by the manner in which the new freemen were made. The right of birth or servitude did not entitle a man to the freedom of the city. That freedom was in the gift of the Corporation; and no man could demand it as his right, but only as a matter of favour and grace. The consequence was, that the number of freemen became very small—there being only 1,900 registered freemen within Dublin, the city of the county of Dublin, and within seven miles thereof. Now, the population of the city of Dublin was 300,000; so that the House would see how small a proportion constituted the body that had the government of the city in their hands. Another feature which characterised the Corporation of Dublin, was its exclusiveness in matters of religion. The hon. and learned Member read an extract from the Report of the Commissioners, for the purpose of showing the evils which had arisen from that exclusiveness; observing, that all the Grand Jurors of the county and city were appointed by the Corporation, and that the Sheriffs were likewise their nominees. In the year 1792, Catholics, by an act of the Legislature, were rendered eligible to Corporate offices; but it was well known, that they had never been invested with any. To state briefly the objects of his intended Bill, he should just inform the House, that it embraced a plan for dividing Dublin into eight wards: that the basis of his proposed constituency would be 10 l. houses—giving, he expected, in the first instance, an electoral body of at least five thousand. He proposed further, that
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there should be three Aldermen for each ward, and eight Common Councilmen; which, with a certain number of Common Councilmen elected by the Guilds at present existing, would give the present number of ninety-six Common Councilmen. The Guilds he should propose to retain, for the purpose of their regulating matters concerning their own trades respectively. His object, he begged it to be understood, in introducing this Bill, was not that it should be carried through in the course of the present Session; but that it should now be merely read a first time—that it should stand over till next Session—and hon. Members would, during the vacation, have ample time for considering its provisions.
Mr. Littletonsaid, that with the understanding that the Bill should not be pressed beyond the first reading during the present Session, he would not offer any objection. It might at first view appear, that one general measure might be made to apply to the case of Irish Corporations generally, but upon reflection he was sure it would be evident to hon. Members, that the case of Dublin required a Bill expressly for that city. He was sure, likewise, that they would agree with him in thinking, that for Dublin there was required such a Reform in the Corporation, as would insure for that body the respect and sympathy of the inhabitants of that city—a matter of peculiar importance in a country circumstanced as Ireland was. In saying thus much, however, he requested that it might not be construed into giving any opinion upon the provisions of the Bill.
Mr. Shawsaid, that but for the speech of the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, he might have been satisfied with the reasons assigned by the hon. member for Northampton (Mr. Vernon Smith) on the last motion, against that now made by the hon. member for Dublin—for when it had been proposed to introduce a measure on this subject relating to England, the argument used on behalf of the Government was, that at the lime a Commission was issued to make inquiry into Corporations it would be premature and absurd to legislate before the result of that inquiry was known. That, however, was equally applicable to the present case, and he would refer on the point to the Report of the Select Committee on Municipal Corporations, which stated, 'Your Committee

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are not enabled to offer any final suggestions as to the remedies which ought to be adopted; and being of opinion, from the defective state of their inquiry, that even those cases which they have examined ought to be subjected to further scrutiny, they have abstained from pointing out particular defects, or animadverting on particular testimony, while there is a possibility that a different colour may be given to the case by future investigation.' Yet while upon these grounds the Government very properly resisted the Motion of the hon. member for Tiverton (Mr. Kennedy), with regard to England, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Littleton) appeared so extremely anxious for the patronage of the hon. and learned member for Dublin (Mr. O'Connell) that while it was admitted the Bill was not to be carried into a law, nor to proceed a step further, the Government was a consenting party to its being printed under the sanction of the House—he (Mr. Shaw) presumed as a sort of written instructions by the hon. Member (Mr. O'Connell) for the conduct of the Commission that had been just appointed to inquire into the Irish corporations. He really must say, that a greater delusion was never practised than that Commission, if the pretence was, that they were to give an unbiassed opinion on the subject—for though he (Mr. Shaw) was free to admit their individual respectability, yet from the chairman, (his hon. and learned friend the member for Monaghan), down to the last named Commissioner on the list, there was not one of them who would not enter upon the investigation with his mind notoriously prejudiced, and his opinion completely made up against all Corporation interests and privileges. It would, in his mind, have been better had the Ministers at once taken upon themselves the responsibility of legislating against the Corporations, than have attempted this mockery of fair dealing to cover their real designs—and he should prefer, that the hon. and learned Member should directly nominate the corporate officers, to having those officers chosen by his irresponsible nominees—which would be virtually the effect of the plan the hon. and learned Member proposed. He would not so far countenance the sort of trifling which he considered the present course to be, between the hon. and learned Member and the Government, as to discuss the
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merits of a measure which there was no intention to proceed with. He would only remark, in reference to the observations of the hon. Member upon the officers appointed by the Corporation, that it could not be alleged, that they were in general found to neglect their public duties, and, as to the formation of the Juries he could say of his own knowledge, that many of that respectable class, of whose omission Mr. O'Connell complained, did not attend upon being summoned. It also would appear, that the increase of the presentments alluded to by the hon. Member, was principally on account of items over which the Grand Jury had no discretionary power.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the Government, in appointing the Commission, were influenced by a feeling, that they did not possess the necessary information, or the materials requisite on which to found an extensive measure of legislation. It was necessary that, in some way or other, that information should be obtained. He was, in the first instance, disposed to think a Committee the proper means of inquiry; but it was found, that a Committee could not exercise all the necessary powers, and, accordingly, that plan was given up. Subsequently a Commission was issued, and under all the circumstances, he was sure the House would agree with him, that it was calculated to answer all useful purposes. He was sure, that the Commission would report on matters of fact alone, and no men could be better qualified than the Commissioners were to accomplish the purposes for which they were selected.
Mr. Lefroysaid, that the very grounds stated by the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) made it incumbent on him, if he had any regard for the consistency of his Government, to oppose the Motion of the hon. and learned member for Dublin. It was impossible for the House to legislate satisfactorily without inquiry, and if so, what was to become of this Bill after it should be laid on the Table? It was manifest, that at this late period of the Session nothing could result from it. It therefore appeared to him to be a most preposterous and childish course to adopt, to introduce a Bill for the sole purpose of gratifying the fancy of the hon. and learned member for Dublin. He (Mr. Lefroy) trusted, the right hon. Secretary for Ireland would not unite with the hon. and learned Member, and sanction the introduction of

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a Bill which had for its object the overthrowing of the Corporation of Dublin.
The Solicitor Generaldid not agree, that it was an objection to a Bill that the hon. Member who introduced it did not intend to press it in the Session in which he brought it forward. He himself had found the advantage of such a course. He had brought in Bills at the close of a Session, not intending to do more by that than to put the House in possession of the nature and objects of them, by having them printed, and he was happy to say, that one of such Bills had lately received the Royal assent, and was now the law of the land; and he hoped, that the others would have a similar result. The case of the Corporation of Dublin was sui generis, and he did think, that without any interference with the Commission appointed, that case might be made the object of a separate measure.
Mr. O'Connell, in reply, bore testimony to the honour and integrity of the Commissioners appointed on the subject of Corporations. He admitted, that they were men not likely to mix up their political opinions with their public duties. Indeed, he was sure, from his own experience, that though men might be appointed from a coincidence in the political opinions of those who appointed them, it did not follow that they, in the discharge of their duties, would allow themselves to be influenced by any other feeling than by a conscientious discharge of those duties; and he would, as an illustration, mention the case of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Shaw, the Recorder of Dublin), who, though he might have been selected by a political body, acting in that selection from political feelings, had never, in any instance, allowed the discharge of his duties to be influenced by any feeling but that of a high sense of justice. As to bringing the Bill forward in the present Session, he would only state, that his object was to put the House in possession of it, and to give full knowledge of it to all parties concerned.
Leave given to bring in the Bill.