Commons Sitting of 7 March 1832

MINUTES.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. Alderman WOOD, an Account of the Number of Stamps issued to each Newspaper in Ireland in each quarter, from the 5th of January, 1830, to the 5th of January, 1832; of the total Amount of Money paid, due, or to be claimed, by Distillers as Drawback on Malt used, or Spirits made entirely from Malt under 1, 2, 4 and 6 George 4th, up to 5th of January, 1832; of the Imperial Proof Gallons of Spirits, distilled in each part of the United Kingdom and Exported from each into the other, and which paid Duty for Home Consumption, from 5th of January, 1831, to 5th of January, 1832, distinguishing for each Kingdom the Gallons in each quarter, on which the Malt Drawback under 6 George 4th, was payable, and the Amount of that Drawback:—On the Motion of Mr. FOWELL BUXTON, Copy of a Charge delivered by Mr. Chief Justice Jeffcott, to the Grand Jury of Sierra Leone, on the subject of the Slave Trade in that Colony, and all Correspondence connected therewith; Copies or Extracts of all Correspondence between Government and Foreign Powers on the subject of the Slave Trade since the 1st of January, 1831; of all Correspondence between Government and the British Commissioners of the mixed Commission Courts at Sierra Leone, Havannah, Rio de Janeiro, and Surinam, relative to the Slave Trade, since the 1st of January, 1830, and all Correspondence between the Admiralty and Naval Officers, Employed on the Coast of Africa, and all Information received from the Governors of British possessions on the same subject for the same period:—On the Motion of Mr. GOULBURN, Account of the Population of each division of divided Counties, and of each Individual County of England and Scotland.
Petitions presented. By Mr. COOPER, from the Parishes of Ballisodere, Moate, Drumlease, and Killenumery, against the New System of Education in Ireland:—By Mr. ROBINSON, from the Worcester Political Union, against the Anatomy Bill; from St. John's, Cartmear Port, De Grave, and Old Perlican, Newfoundland; and by Mr. HUME, from Brigus, Newfoundland, praying for the Establishment of a Local Legislature:—By Mr. Alderman WOOD, from Clerkenwell, signed by 30,000 Persons:—By Mr. SADLER, from Manchester, signed by 14,000 Persons; and from Leeds, signed by 18,000 Persons; from the Operative Cotton Spinners of Glasgow, signed by 1,500 Persons; from the Vicar and Clergy of Huddersfield; Sunday School Teachers of Bradford; Inhabitants of North Walsham, Horsforth, Tottenham and Yeadon; Operatives of Morley, Inhabitants of Eccleshill, Ampthill, Uxbridge, Dartford, Horsham, St. Marylebone; of Persons employed in Bleahfields, in Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire, and Dumbartonshire: Operatives in Mills at Dundee and Glasgow; Inhabitants of Rochdale, Oldham, Nottingham, Beverly and Charmouth; by Mr. FOWELL BUXTON, from Bethnal Green, signed by 1,500 Persons; and from Spitalfields, signed by 1,000 Persons; in favour of the Factories Regulation Bill:—By Mr. HEYWOOD, from the Master Cotton Spinners and Manufacturers in Bromley; and from the Spinners and Manufacturers in Manchester, and by Mr. GREEN, from
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the Overseers of Townships adjacent to Dolphucholme, Worsted Mills near Lancaster, from certain Manufacturers at Manchester, from the Inhabitants of Kirkby, Lonsdale, and Sedbergh, against the said Bill:—By the Marquis of CHANDOS, from the West-India Planters and Proprietors, against the Duties on Sugar.

FACTORIES' REGULATION BILL.
Mr. Greenepresented a Petition from 420 operatives, at Manchester, praying, in behalf of themselves and their children, that this Bill might not pass into a law. The petitioners stated, that their children were not injuriously affected by their employment, and they declared their impression, that, if the Bill was passed, it would tend to deprive many persons of employment, who would be compelled to resort to their parishes for support.
Mr. Briscoesaid, that some hon. Members had objected to the Legislature interfering between masters and their labourers; he was quite of that opinion, so far as adults were concerned; but it was a different case with regard to children of such tender ages as were often employed in factories, and, upon the acknowledged principle that they were unable to protect themselves, it was incumbent upon the Legislature to step forward in their behalf.
Mr. Jameshad reason to believe, that both masters and operatives were hostile to the Bill, although all must and did agree in the abstract principles of it, so far as humanity was concerned. To prevent the overworking of children in a pestilential atmosphere was most certainly very desirable; yet the Bill must be looked to in its practical results, and it might so happen that those who would prevent the excessive labour of children might compel them to starve. They might commit greater cruelties than they attributed to the manufacturers, by preventing these children from obtaining any employment at all. The scale of wages working people obtained at present, including the earnings of their children, were barely sufficient to supply the family with food. If the value of the children's labour, therefore, was abstracted, starvation must be the consequence. It was a great matter of difficulty to legislate upon such premises, and to make laws that remained a dead letter upon the Statute-book was absurd. A clause had been introduced into a bill brought in by the hon. member for Westminster two years since, by which it was enacted, that children should not be employed in mills at night; but that, was completely evaded by the parents giving forged certificates of their

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ages. By the Bill now before the House, one-sixth of the profits of the masters would be taken off, and, therefore, to that extent it favoured the foreign spinner. These considerations required that very great caution should be used in passing the Bill.
Mr. Humewished to take that opportunity to declare, that he was no enemy to the Bill; he made that declaration, because he understood an erroneous impression had gone abroad, that he was opposed to its principle. He only wished for a full inquiry, and, therefore, he had voted, that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee, that the subject might be understood in all its bearings. He was most anxious that the children should be protected; but he did not wish to trammel the master with unnecessary restraints, and he knew no way the different bearings of the Bill could be sifted, and the proper consequences assigned to it, but by inquiry before a Select Committee.
Petition to be printed.
Mr. Mackenziesaid, he had several petitions to present, which took a different view of the question from that which the hon. Member had just laid before the House. These petitions emanated from persons who employed a great number of operatives. They were cotton-spinners and manufacturers of Glasgow, and flax-spinners and manufacturers of Kirkaldy. The petitioners stated, that they viewed the progress of the Bill with great alarm; its professed object was, to protect children in factories from being overworked; but there was no necessity for such a measure in this case, inasmuch as no child was employed by them under fourteen years of age; that those who were employed had but little labour to perform, their chief employment was to attend the machinery, and great attention was paid to their bodily and mental improvement. The petition further noticed, the low rate of wages in factories and mills worked by the power-loom, and stated, that, if the Bill passed, a reduction of wages must follow, in proportion to the diminished hours of labour, and that such reduction would amount to thirty-live per cent on the present scale. The petitioners further referred to the diminished capital that must be employed, provided the hours of labour were limited, and the various evils that would be produced by such a result; another view of the case was also taken by the flax-spinners, whose petition he held in his hand. They stated, that a
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Bill had passed last Session, to limit the hours of labour to twelve, and the present measure reduced them to ten. The petitioners declared, they saw no reason for the alteration, and he agreed with them; he had yet to learn what had happened to children within a-year, to make them not so competent to perform a given quantity of labour now as they were then.
Mr. Dixonfelt much regret, as he knew the petitioners, that they endeavoured to uphold the present system. He thought it was the greatest compliment the parties could have paid him, that they had not intrusted the petitions to his care.
Mr. Robert Fergusonsaid, he had been earnestly requested to support the petition from the spinning factories of the Kircaldy district. He, therefore, entreated those Gentlemen who were interested in this important measure, to attend to the statements in that petition, as tending to point out the means of legislating with the least possible injury to the operative and employer. He might, likewise, state, that he possessed documents which proved that there was much exaggeration in many of the petitions which had been presented to the House.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonfelt ashamed to hear the present cruel system upheld. No Committee was wanted to find out what was due to humanity. Was it possible, without ruining the health of these helpless infants, to confine them to labour for twelve consecutive hours? He must say, that the statement of these petitioners condemned them, in his opinion, when they asserted that such a number of hours was not too much for working children.
Mr. Huntobserved, that some of these petitioners stated, that the children employed in the factories at Glasgow were well fed, clothed, and lodged. If such was the fact, he was glad of it; but he knew that it was impossible for any human beings to be in a worse state than the children were in Lancashire. The petitioners further stated, that the occupation of these poor children was not unwholesome. The case was very different in Lancashire, where they were obliged to work in an impure atmosphere, heated from eighty to ninety degrees, and were kept in a state of perpetual perspiration and exhaustion. In short, they were treated worse than dogs; for, that if any gentleman were to find his servant treating his pigs or his dogs as these miserable children were treated, he would punish him most severely.
Mr. Sadlersaid, after the allusions made to him, he should be allowed, he trusted, to offer a few remarks. With reference to the petitions from Glasgow, it would have been well had more caution been adopted with regard to the allegations made therein, as he had a petition of a direct contrary nature from the operative cotton-spinners and other persons employed in the factories at that place, signed by 1,500, a number which would have been greatly increased if more time had been allowed. These petitioners stated, that comparatively few of those who were employed in factories lived to the age of forty-five years—that the long confinement impeded the natural growth of children, and prevented their receiving any education—that this had a most pernicious moral effect, and that the increase of crime was enormous. These facts showed, that, whether the demand for manufactures was great or small, the situation of the people was most lamentable, and that they were in the greatest possible distress. He did not mean to deny the assertion, that many of the masters who petitioned also possessed great wealth, and were highly respectable individuals; but he thought they ought to have some regard for the poor individuals through whom they accumulated their wealth. The persons for whose benefit the Bill was intended were entitled, from their extreme poverty and helplessness, to the protection of Parliament. The Legislature was bound, on every principle of humanity, to pass some law on the subject.
Mr. Stricklandhad received many communications on the subject, and he begged to give his cordial support to the object proposed by the hon. Member, for he was convinced it would be necessary to pass some measure for the relief of the persons employed in factories. He was happy to be able to state, that a large portion of the mill-owners were in favour of diminishing the hours of labour. Most of them, however, thought the Bill went too far, and would lead to an improper interference in the management of factories. It was on all hands admitted, that some relief should be afforded to the children, and he should be happy to co-operate in attaining so desirable an object.
Petitions to be printed.

EXPEDITION OF THE FRENCH TO ITALY.
Lord Althorp moved, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Ways and Means.
Sir Richard Vyvyanwished to take the opportunity of putting a question to the noble Lord, on a subject of considerable importance. It would be in the recollection of the House that he had put a question to the noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, about a fortnight since, respecting the supposed intentions of the French government in sending troops to the coast of Italy. The noble Lord said, that he was not answerable for the conduct of the French government. With this answer he was obliged to be content, although he considered it any thing but satisfactory. Further information had since been received, and, it appeared, that the expedition had reached the place of its destination—that the troops had landed at Ancona—and that, on their doing so, the Papal troops retired before them into the interior, after the commander had protested against the landing of this force. It was clear, from the conduct of this military officer, that he was not aware of the intentions of the French. These appeared to be the facts of the case, according to public report, and he was desirous of knowing whether the occupation of Ancona by a French force had the consent of the Papal government, and whether the expedition was undertaken with the knowledge of the other Powers of Europe? The interference of France in the internal affairs of any Italian state was materially different from the interference of Austria. It should be recollected, that the latter Power was called in by the Pope to put down the disturbances which had broken out in his territories; and that Power might feel the better justified in obeying that call, in consequence of the persons who had taken up arms having called upon the Italians of the north of Italy, over which Austria had dominion, to join them. Under these circumstances, Austria was justified in interfering, if the Pope was not powerful enough to put down the insurrection. Austria was the more called upon to interfere, because its subjects had been called upon to rebel against their acknowledged sovereign. The French, however, had no territory in the immediate vicinity of the Papal dominions, and the French government had no right to send troops to take possession of Ancona, unless they had been requested to do so by the Papal government. Of course, he only spoke on public rumour, but he had reason to believe the French troops landed at Ancona, not only without having been invited to do so by the Papal authorities,

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but even against their wishes, and, notwithstanding the protests of these authorities. It was one of the misfortunes of those who unhappily engaged in this revolt, that an envoy of the French Revolution of 1830, was introduced at the court of Modena, and he induced the inhabitants of that duchy, and the subjects of the Pope, to break out into rebellion against their acknowledged sovereigns. He regretted that so many of those persons were induced, by false promises, to embark in an undertaking which had terminated by consigning many to the scaffold, and a great number to exile. False hopes, he suspected, were held out to these persons, and they were encouraged to embark in an enterprise under the promise of assistance, and they had been left to see what little reliance could be placed upon the assurances they received. He should regard with satisfaction the adoption of improvements in the governments of many of the Italian states. As an admirer of our Constitution, he must say, that the governments of the Duke of Modena and of the Pope were such as no admirer of our institutions could sanction. With respect to those who lured the subjects of the Duke of Modena and of the Pope to acts which had brought many to the scaffold, and had led to exile and confiscation, he wanted words to describe his abhorrence of their want of good faith. It was owing to the excitement occasioned by the French Revolution, and to the stimulus of French emissaries, that the inhabitants of the Bolognese, and Modenese, and the neighbouring districts, were induced to break out into rebellion. He feared that the landing of the French would again excite a civil war in Italy, and lead those persons on to their destruction. He did not hesitate to assert, that the French had never entered Italy without bringing a train of evils, and inflicting the greatest miseries upon the people. France had long been the curse of Italy; and the iron crown of Lombardy had been only a searing-brand round her brow. The point, however, to which he was anxious to draw attention was, that the French troops had been allowed to land without a British squadron being at hand to observe and give notice of their proceedings. With the view of obtaining information on those points, he begged to ask the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Foreign Department, whether, after the destination of the French troops was known, any communication passed between the government of France and our
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Government on the subject? and whether the French troops landed at Ancona with the sanction of his Britannic Majesty? These were the first questions to which he wished an answer. Another question, which he considered of greater importance was, whether the sovereign of the Papal states acquiesced in the plan of landing a band of French troops in the Papal territories? If the French troops landed in defiance of any protest made by the Pope, and, contrary to his will, it was the first time since the days of Napoleon that such invasion had taken place. It was the first time that England had allowed such a matter to pass without demanding immediate explanation. Such was not the course pursued by Lord Castlereagh, in 1820, in the case of Naples, nor the course pursued by Mr. Canning, when the combined fleets—unfortunate as the combination was—were ordered to Navarino. When called upon, he fully admitted the rights of neighbouring states to interfere for the suppression of insurrection; but the question was, whether any states had a right to interfere when the sovereign protested against such interference; and, whether the landing of troops, under such circumstances, must not be looked upon as an invasion? He was all this time assuming that the landing took place contrary to the wishes of the Pope. But, perhaps, he was wrong. Perhaps the Papal government had acquiesced in the landing of French troops either at Civita Vecchia, or at Ancona. All that he knew on the subject was, that the French troops had landed, and, knowing this, he felt himself justified in asking, whether the landing was acquiesced in by the British Government, and whether it was authorized by the government of the Papal territories?
Viscount Palmerston: With respect to the general facts in which the hon. Baronet's questions are founded, namely, the corps of Austrian and French troops have appeared in the Papal territories—I believe that no doubt exists, and, therefore, it is not necessary that I should touch upon those facts. With respect to the questions put by the hon. Baronet, I am sure the House will understand and give me credit for my motives, when I state, that I do not think it consistent with my public duty to make any statement at this period with regard to what might have passed between this Government and that of France, with respect to the expedition to Italy, and still less with respect to any

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thing which might have passed between the French government and the government of the Papal states. This is not the proper time to enter into any discussion on the line of policy adopted by the French government; but it appears to me that the chief accusation which the hon. Baronet makes against the French government is, that it has not sufficiently interfered, inasmuch as he considers it ought to have given to the people Of another country institutions, in his opinion, more congenial to their welfare. With respect to the Government of England, the charge against us is of a similar description. The hon. Baronet seems to say, that the English Government ought to have sent an English fleet, to co-operate with the French expedition sent to Italy. I am not now going to discuss those accusations, but I wish to point the attention of the House to the hon. Baronet's opinions, as it may be useful for future purposes. I repeat, that it would not be consistent with my duty to give any further answer to the hon. Baronet's questions: but it might be satisfactory that I should state, that, so far as his Majesty's Government is informed, I see he reason to apprehend that the circumstances which led to the advance of the Austrian and French troops into the Papal territories may not be adjusted, without any interruption of the peace of Europe.
Sir Robert Peel: When my noble friend distinctly states, that his public duty prevents him from answering the questions put by my hon. friend near me, I am very unwilling to press for any premature declarations; but, in the present state of our information, I think it is impossible for us to view the proceedings taken on the part of the French government—I will not say, without suspicion, but, certainly, without very great anxiety and apprehension. I do not prefer any charge against the French government, because I have no materials on which I could found any charge, and because, although I would never consent to sacrifice the honour or the permanent interest of this country to maintain a good understanding with the French government, yet my noble friend himself cannot have a more sincere desire than I have, that that good understanding should not be interrupted. But, entertaining this feeling, I do hot think it right that we should be withheld from doing our duty, as Members of the British House of Commons, by any few of offending the
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French government. In the observations which I am about to make, I beg to state distinctly, that I do not take part with the French or the Austrian governments; but, if it appears, according to the statements which have been made, that a French corps, without any intimation having been made to other governments, has taken forcible possession of a part of the Papal territories, that is a matter of the gravest and most fearful importance, considered, not only as to its immediate and probable consequences, but as to the precedent which it affords, if the fact cannot be satisfactorily explained. If it shall appear, too, that this act of the French government was only intended to conciliate a party in France anxious for the delusions of military glory, all my apprehensions, as to the danger of the precedent will be more strongly confirmed. In the last year the French government sent a large army into Belgium, without having previously obtained the consent of the Allies. France has also taken possession of a large territory on the south coast of the Mediterranean. French troops occupy a part of Greece (and I do not say that this occupation would afford any ground for observation if it stood alone); and, lastly, we see a detachment of French troops how taking possession of the Papal territory. I do not say that these acts of interference are not separately justifiable; but, when we see a continuance and combination of these acts—of acts done without the union of the other Allied Powers—I say it gives me great apprehensions as to the maintenance of peace, and of that balance of power on which the permanent tranquillity of Europe so much depends. I refrain from saying more, because my noble friend has stated, that the time has not yet come for the discussion of those topics. Balancing the inconvenience of putting some questions on the subject against the advantage, I own I do see much greater advantage in putting the questions than in letting it be supposed that such a subject has been passed by in total apathy by the British House of Commons.
Sir Richard Vyvyanhad particularly guarded himself, as he thought, against identifying the government of France with that faction which his fight hon. friend (Sir Robert Peel) had alluded to, and to pamper which, he feared, much had been done by the French government. His observations were directed against that faction which had sent its agents to

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Modena, and had lured on the Poles to destruction, and not against the French government.
Viscount Palmerstonwas exceedingly glad to hear the hon. Baronet's explanation; and that his observations were not directed to the government of France, but to the Propaganda faction. He must be allowed, however, to make an observation or two on what had just fallen from his right hon. friend (Sir Robert Peel), who had stated, that he felt a great anxiety, and no doubt a very justifiable anxiety, with regard to the maintenance of the peace of Europe, as affected by the proceedings of the French government. His right hon. friend had referred to the French expeditions to Belgium, Greece, and Algiers, as affording ground for apprehension. With regard to the first of these expeditions—the entrance of the French troops into Belgium—it was due to the government of France to state, that though the advance of the French troops took place, without previous communication, yet that expedition was in perfect accordance with the spirit in which France and her Allies had previously acted—it had been immediately adopted by the Allies—and he (Lord Palmerston) was satisfied that it had been mainly instrumental in preserving the peace of Europe. He might further add, that, on that occasion, the French government acted with perfect good faith, and evacuated the country as soon as the object for which her troops had entered it was obtained. With respect to the occupation of Greece, that act was done by France in concurrence with her Allies; and the continuance of the French troops in Greece was entirely consistent with the views and wishes of the other Powers. As to the expedition to Algiers, the Government of this country, he believed, received assurances, which they conceived were satisfactory, at the time the expedition took place.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, it was not very easy to answer such statements as those just made by his noble friend, without some previous consideration. With regard to the French expedition to Algiers, however, he believed he might draw upon his recollection to state, that the assurances then made by France were, that, in the event of the expedition proving successful, she would seek to derive no benefit from that success, but would call in the other Powers, to determine upon what permanent footing the state of Algiers should be placed. The understanding, no doubt, might have been
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satisfactory, but the question was, whether it had been fulfilled? With respect to Greece, he had already distinctly stated, that it would be impossible, from that single case, to found any suspicion against France; yet still the occupation of Greece, and the retention of a strong post in the Mediterranean, were examples which no one could say might not be dangerous if followed in other places, and he owned they afforded additional reason, in his mind, for viewing with some degree of jealousy the descent now made on the Papal territory. With respect to Belgium, he could not agree with his noble friend, that the evil had terminated when the French troops evacuated that country. The evil was in the example of a great Power occupying part of an independent state, without being able to assign any satisfactory reason, nor having previously communicated with her Allies.
Subject dropped.

TIMBER TRADE.
An Hon. Memberwould avail himself of that opportunity to put a question of importance to the right hon. Gentleman, the Vice President of the Board of Trade, relating to the timber trade. It was well known, that a considerable quantity of timber was sent annually from the Baltic to Canada, and which timber was subsequently imported from the latter country into this as Canadian timber. He wished, therefore, to be informed, whether it was the intention of Ministers to put a stop to this proceeding, and also whether any instructions to that effect had been issued?
Mr. Poulett Thomsonwas not aware of any intentions in Government to interfere in the matter at present. Certainly no instructions had been issued to the Customs on the subject.

POST OFFICE REGULATIONS.
Mr. Crokerwished to take this opportunity of calling attention to the case of the suburbs of the metropolis, as connected with the Post-office Regulations. The suburbs of the metropolis had become such great towns, that his Majesty's Government considered it necessary they should have Representatives in that House; and he was sure the Post-office department was well disposed to afford every advantage that could be given to so large a body of persons as the inhabitants of the metropolitan suburbs. Now, almost all who heard him were aware that persons living in the neighbourhood of

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great towns, nearly in every instance, re-received their letters upon the payment of one penny in addition to the postage. In the neighbourhood of London, however, for no other reason that he knew of, but that there were means of doing it with more facility than in other towns, the inhabitants of the suburbs had to pay twopence, instead of a penny—just double the sum paid by persons residing in the neighbourhood of Liverpool, or other large towns. But this was not the worst. Although the inhabitants of the metropolitan suburbs paid double as much, they received their letters later by many hours than persons residing in the neighbourhood of other towns. In many country towns all the letters were delivered immediately after the arrival of the post; but the inhabitants of the metropolitan suburbs did not receive their letters for three hours after the delivery within the limits of the General Post. If the letters were delivered at Hyde-park-corner at nine o'clock, he could see no good reason why they should be detained until twelve when directed a furlong beyond Hyde-park-corner. As the inhabitants of the suburbs of London paid twice as much as others for the delivery of their letters, he thought they ought to receive them sooner. At all events, he conceived the subject was sufficiently important to call attention to it; and he begged to ask the Secretary for the Treasury, whether, in the Bill which had lately passed the House, any remedy had been provided for the evils of which he complained?
Mr. Spring Riceapprehended that, if the evils described by the right hon. Gentleman were capable of being remedied, it might be done by Post-office regulations, without any Bill. The right hon. Gentleman had only done justice to the Post-office department, and to the noble Duke at its head, when he stated, that there was every disposition in that quarter to accommodate the public; and on that disposition he thought the House and the public might securely rest. The suggestions of the right hon. Gentleman, he admitted, were well deserving of consideration. The difficulty was as to the question of time. The question between a penny and twopence was comparatively nothing. The second sorting of letters rendered the letters directed without the range of the General Post later in the delivery; and he believed that it would be impossible, by any arrangement, that the letters which went beyond the limits of the General Post should be
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delivered as early as those within those limits. He would take care, however, that the subject should be mentioned in the proper quarter.

MUNICIPAL POLICE.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, he should now put a question to the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) on a subject connected with domestic policy, to which he hoped for a more satisfactory reply than that given by his noble friend (Lord Palmerston) to the questions put to him respecting foreign policy. It would be in the recollection of the House that, on the 6th of December last, in consequence of an address proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, in which the House unanimously concurred, the House assured his Majesty that, in obedience to the recommendation contained in his most gracious Speech, they would take into consideration some measure for the establishment of a Municipal Police in the cities and towns of the kingdom, with a view to the better maintenance of the public peace. This address having been presented to his Majesty early in the month of December, it was not unreasonable to suppose that his Majesty should now begin to inquire why Parliament did not proceed to fulfil its promise. Without pressing that topic, however, he hoped he should not be considered premature if, after three months had passed, he inquired of the noble Lord, whether any measure was about to be brought forward? There was no part of his Majesty's Speech of which he so much approved as this suggestion for the improvement of the Municipal Police—if by Municipal was meant the Police of large towns. It was a most important subject, and one which called for all the energy and attention of Government; for, if it should be left to the local interests in different towns, there was too much reason to fear that the intentions of Government would be wholly defeated. He begged, therefore, to ask the noble Lord, whether his Majesty's Ministers had made up their mind as to the course they should pursue on this subject? whether they had made up their mind to introduce any measure for the establishment of a Police, or whether they found the difficulties arising from local circumstances so great that they thought it would be necessary to submit the question, in the first instance, to a Committee?
Lord Althorpentirely concurred with the right hon. Baronet, that this subject

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was one of considerable importance. It had been for some time under the consideration of Government, and it was undoubtedly the intention of his Majesty's Government to introduce a measure with respect to the establishment of a Municipal Police. He was not able to state, however, that the measure was yet in so perfect a form that it could be produced.
Sir Charles Wetherellwas glad this subject had been mentioned, because he understood that his Majesty's Ministers had thought fit to instruct their Attorney General to prosecute the Bristol Magistrates for the riots which took place in that town. As to the passage in his Majesty's Speech adverted to by his right hon. friend (Sir R. Peel), recommending the establishment of a Municipal Police, it had been introduced, ad captandam, in reference to the explosion at Bristol, and he did not believe that, since that time, a single step had been taken by his Majesty's Government in reference to the measure. That was his own opinion. Of course he did not pretend to know what was going on in Downing-street, though he believed he knew quite as much of it as some persons whose duties ought to take them there. His Majesty's Ministers, however, he understood, in subjection and obedience to a miserable popular clamour urged on by a base Press, had determined to prosecute the Bristol Magistrates. With this proposed prosecution he could take it upon himself to say, the Magistrates were well pleased, as it would give them an opportunity of justifying their actions.
The Attorney Generalcould not refrain from expressing his surprise and indignation at the extraordinary declaration which his hon. and learned friend had just made, when he said that his Majesty's Ministers had degraded themselves by submitting to the subjugation of a base Press, and by ordering a prosecution against the Magistrates of Bristol in obedience to popular clamour. What could have induced his hon. and learned friend to indulge in such a tirade against Gentlemen as honourable and high minded as his hon. and learned friend himself, he Could not possibly conjecture? On what authority had he ventured to bring so unworthy an accusation against them? He could assure the House that it was not in obedience to any clamour from any quarter, but upon a full, and anxious, and patient consideration of all the circumstances, that Government had ordered, and that he, as law-officer of the Crown,
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had filed an information against the Magistrate's of Bristol. He could likewise assure the House, that it was only because he had filed an information against them that he abstained from saying a word as to their conduct. It was due both to those who had directed the prosecution and to those who might possibly suffer from it, that the case should not undergo premature discussion. To enter into any such explanation as he (the Attorney General) could give upon it, would be most improper; but even that would not be half so improper as the course adopted by his hon. and learned friend, which was to cast such reflections upon the Government as naturally led to recriminations of that nature which, on every principle of justice, ought to be avoided at present.
Mr. A. Robert Dundaswas particularly desirous to learn whether Ministers intended to introduce a general measure upon this subject? He had a bill to introduce relating to the Police of the large town with which he was connected; but, as his constituents had no wish to incur unnecessary expense, they wished to know whether it was the intention of Government to introduce a general Police Bill, before they incurred greater expense in prosecuting the bill with which he was intrusted. He assured Ministers, that if they would bring in any such general measure, he should be most ready to give it his humble support.
The House resolved itself into a Committee.

WAYS AND MEANS—SUGAR DUTIES.
Lord Althorprose to propose the renewal of the Sugar Duties for the next six months. In doing so, he was sorry to say, that, although he was aware of the distress which prevailed in the West Indies, it was not in his power to propose any reduction or alteration of those duties on the present occasion. He did not think that a very small reduction of the duties would be of any benefit, and it was not possible at present, consistently with the maintenance of the revenue, and the protection of other interests in the country, to propose any considerable diminution. It was said, that, unless a reduction of the sugar duties took place, no relief could be granted to the West Indies. He did not concur in that view. There were other modes in which relief might be given, although, perhaps, not exactly to the same extent as if it were practicable to make such a reduction as would be the means of absorbing the greater part of

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the surplus produce of the West Indies. It had been urged upon him, by gentlemen connected with the West-India interests, that he should state what specific plan of relief he had in contemplation; but he did not think he should be justified in doing so, unless he were prepared and able to follow it up immediately by carrying his propositions into effect. It should be borne in mind, that any thing which would give relief to the West-India interests must, more or less, clash with some other interests; and, therefore, if he now gave notice of any specific plan, he could not do so with that certainty which alone would justify him in communicating it. But he was perfectly ready to say, although he feared it would not be so satisfactory, that it was his intention to propose some fiscal measures of relief in the course of this Session, and, although he was afraid they would not go to the same extent of relief as a. very large reduction of the sugar duties, he hoped and trusted they would be found advantageous to the West-India colonies. At the same time, he must observe, that in any proposition he might bring forward, he was bound to recollect the pledge which he had given last Session, on the Motion of the hon. member for Weymouth, namely, that in any measures of relief that should be proposed, his Majesty's Government would make a distinction between the colonies which had adopted the regulations pressed upon them by that House, and those which had not. By that pledge he was bound, and by that pledge he would abide. And this was an additional reason why it was impossible, at the present moment, to bring forward any specific plan, because it would, undoubtedly, be extremely unfair that the House should immediately give any such advantages to the colonies which had acceded to the regulations, when those which had legislatures of their own had not had time to consider the propositions, and the Crown colonies were obliged immediately to adopt them. He moved "that it is the opinion of this Committee, that, towards raising the supply granted to his Majesty, the several duties on sugar and molasses, imposed by an Act of the first year of the reign of his present Majesty, and the bounties granted thereon, shall be further continued until the 10th day of October, 1832."
The Marquis of Chandosregretted that the noble Lord could not consent to a reduction of the sugar duties. The difficulties under which the colonies were labour-
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ing were hourly increasing. This was not the first, second, nor third time that their case had come under the consideration of Government, and it was a little too hard to say to them, "England is in no state to grant you any relief." The noble Lord said, that he meant to grant them some relief, but would the House be satisfied with the prospect Government was holding out? Only yesterday the Committee up-stairs came to the following resolution:—"that it is the opinion of the Committee, that material relief would be afforded to the West-India interests by any such reduction of duty, as would, by encouraging a considerable consumption in the United Kingdom, diminish the supply to the other parts of the world." He had not the least hesitation in saying, that, even by a small reduction of the sugar duties, the consumption would be greatly increased, so that the revenue would lose nothing. On that ground, therefore, the noble Lord could not stand. He feared, however, it was almost a hopeless case to stand up in that House and advocate the cause of the West-India colonies; for, on the one hand, a plea of poverty was urged, which would admit of nothing being done, and, on the other, a strong party-feeling existed, running counter to the prosperity of the colonial interests. Between these two, he certainly felt alarmed lest the country should be deprived of its colonies; for it was impossible for any one to observe what was going on, without seeing that, if the same policy was persisted in for a few years longer, England could no longer hope to have any control over her West-Indian possessions. They would unite themselves with that power which would protect them, and no longer come here, where they were constantly told that no relief could be vouchsafed to them. He, therefore, implored the noble Lord not to lose sight of the valuable assistance which the colonies afforded to this country; and if he could hold out any hope of a reduction, he certainly would not press the amendment which he had to propose to a division; but if that hope was not held out by Government, he should be under the necessity of moving an amendment, and of taking the opinion of the Committee upon it. Of course, he was not able to say any thing about the relief which the noble Lord promised, as he had not thought proper to explain the nature of his proposal: the great relief, however, to which the West-India interests had always looked, had been the reduce-

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tion of the sugar duties; and he thought the reduction which he had to propose, though moderate in amount, would be such as to afford some relief to the colonies. The state of those islands seemed to him imperatively to demand this step: ruin was threatening them in every direction—the planters were reduced from affluence nearly to beggary—houses no longer existed for making the sugar—the slaves were in rebellion—and to all these things the only answer of the noble Lord was, "the Government can afford you no relief." He felt, therefore, that it was not too much to ask for a small reduction, when the noble Lord proposed to renew, for six months longer, the war duties at their highest pitch; and he, therefore, begged to propose, by way of amendment, "That all brown, muscovado, and clayed sugars, imported from the British possessions in America, and the Mauritius, be imported at a duty of 20 s. per cwt." This was tantamount to a reduction in the duty of 4s. per cwt.
Mr. Keith Douglaswas most anxious to avoid saying any thing that was likely to excite angry feelings on either side; but this was a subject, the discussion of which, at the present moment, was calculated to produce more of that feeling than almost any other?—for the West-India interests had suffered so much of late, that those connected with them were not easily to be appeased. He certainly expected, after the discussions in the Committee, that the Government would have proposed a reduction in these duties, in order that something might be done for the alleviation of the distresses of those colonies. He was, therefore, somewhat surprised to hear the noble Lord talk of the impossibility of risking any defalcation in the revenue, saying, that the loss of the colonies could bear no comparison with a small deficit in the Exchequer. The Committee wished to propose resolutions pointing out distinct modes of relief; but that, it was said, would be contrary to the princple which the Government entertained. Other propositions were then made; but the answer to them all was, that the other interests of the country interfered with them, and that the government was unwilling to throw its weight into the scale, as considerable responsibility would attach to the proposing of any measure to the House. Under these circumstances, he was warranted in asserting, from the nature of the resolutions passed, that the Committee came to the unanimous conclusion that a
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general reduction of the duty would be the best means of affording relief to the planters, and that even a small reduction of that duty would tend to the same effect. The first resolution stated, "that it appears to the Committee that effectual relief would be afforded to the West-India planters by such a reduction of the duty on sugar as would lead, by extending the consumption in the United Kingdom, to the absorption of the sugar now exported to foreign countries." The second resolution was, "that it is the opinion of the Committee, that material relief would be afforded to the same interests by any such reduction of duty as would, by encouraging a considerable consumption in the United Kingdom, diminish the supply to the other parts of the world. He begged to call the attention of the Committee to what had been the effect of the recent reduction in the sugar duty, by which his statement would be borne out—that a decrease of duty would be attended with an increase of consumption. In the half-year ending 5th July, 1830, the home consumption was 2,086,409 cwt., producing to the country a revenue of 2,206,000 l. Subsequent to the reduction of the 3s. duty, or in the half-year ending 5th July, 1831, the consumption had risen to 2,290,365 cwt., and the sum received by the revenue consequently rose to 2,304,819 l., making an increase of about 210,000 cwt., and of about 100,000 l. on that period. As far as he could understand the question, the increase of consumption up to the 5th January last, had been going on in the same ratio, and, therefore, at the present moment, notwithstanding the reduction of the 3s. duty, there was a larger revenue arising from the sugar duties than previously; and the increase of the consumption in the course of the year had been 400,000 cwt. The noble Lord proposed to take the existing duty for half a-year, but a more inexpedient proposition could not be made; for the effect of it would be to paralyse the transactions of all those connected with the West-India trade; and the noble Lord, instead of reaping any benefit from his proposition, would injure the revenue. The planters, when they asked for a Committee, alleged that they had been placed in an unjust situation, and were called on to compete with other countries without having the means. These assertions were proved before the Committee, and resolutions were come to affirmatory of the fact; and yet, after all these pains, the whole was to be set aside, and

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all that the noble Lord could hold out was, that fiscal regulations were to be made, founded on political considerations, as to the state of society in the West-India colonies. Much might have been done if the language of persuasion and kindness had been used towards the colonies; but there had been nothing but angry discussion, charges made, and accusations brought forward; in short, every thing done that could excite unpleasant feelings. He was, therefore, exceedingly sorry that the noble Lord had coupled his promise of fiscal relief with other measures, that would produce a great deal of angry debate both here and in the colonies. He was afraid, from the clashing of interest, which was now so evident, and from the irritation which existed, that all men must look forward to a time when those colonies would no longer form a part of the British Empire.
Lord Sandonsaid, he had hoped that some expression of feeling and sympathy for the condition of the West-India trade would have fallen from his Majesty's Government on the present occasion, which would have satisfied and given confidence not only to the West-India colonies, but the entire country, and, without such an expression, he feared that those connected with the colonies must make up their mind to lose them. He conceived that the view taken by the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the present instance, was very short-sighted, when he talked of a possible defalcation in the revenue as the only thing to be avoided. He feared, the measures proposed by the noble Lord would bring on the very evil he was so anxious to guard against. It would be better to run the risk of a financial defalcation than incur the more fearful risk of destroying the West-India interests. He assured the Committee that it was with the greatest regret that he felt called on to give his vote against the Government on this occasion, for he had a sincere desire to have avoided it, especially as he did not look on the reduction of this duty as the best mode of proceeding: but when he found that the West-India interests were driven from post to pillar—when he found that they were put off year after year—he felt that something must be done; and this reduction appeared the most feasible thing that the present circumstances would allow. Some observations had been made on the resolutions that had been proposed in the Committee up-stairs; and, as he had been the mover of one of them, perhaps he might
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be allowed to say a few words. In the first place, it was his belief that a reduction in the duty would not make a corresponding reduction in the revenue; because, when the article became cheaper, the consumption would certainly be increased; and this was with him a strong proof that any thing that led to an increased consumption would be a benefit to the consumer at least; and if the sources of supply should happen to be checked by the interference of treaties, or otherwise, which appeared likely to be the case, a benefit would also be conferred on the grower, so that the general beneficial effect would be divided between these two parties; and as, in the present state of the colonies, the smallest benefit must be most gratefully accepted, and as it was most important to show in that House a lively concern and solicitude for those interests which it had once been the glory of this country to protect and uphold, he thought that they were bound to come to the resolution that a reduction of the duties ought to take place.
Mr. Humesaid, that no one was less disposed to allow the colonies to be a source of expense to this country than he was, but still he thought that they were bound to afford relief to them under their present distressed circumstances, particularly when they could, at the same time, afford relief to the consumers in this country. He had for many years been of opinion, that the pledge given by the British Parliament at the commencement of the war, that the increase of duties should end with that war, had never been redeemed; and he had, therefore, on every occasion, invariably advocated the reduction of the sugar duties. Now, that a Committee, after carefully considering the matter, had come to a resolution that the only means of preserving the colonies from ruin was by a reduction of those duties, the House was imperatively bound to afford that assistance. Indeed, he thought that the whole effect of the policy practised towards the West-India colonies was to destroy that confidence which ought to be placed in the Government, as affording protection to capital and property. At the same time, he did not suppose that this effect had been intended by the present Ministers. He thought they meant to do good; but evil had unfortunately been the result, and great sacrifice of property had ensued. It was for this reason that he thought that Parliament was bound to endeavour to stay the evil, and to afford the best relief in its

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power. So strongly was he of this opinion, that even, though the Exchequer should suffer, the Government was bound to consider most seriously whether it was not wise to grant this relief. The colonist not only required but deserved this reduction, and the British public were entitled to it. A benefit would thereby be extended both to the planter and the consumer; and he would entreat the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to make thus far an approach to the redemption of the pledge given before the war, that the duties should cease, and to make some sacrifice to meet the views of those who were on the verge of ruin, to which they had been brought by an accumulation of circumstances and misfortunes. For these reasons, he should vote for the Amendment of the noble Marquis.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonwas so satisfied, that on the vote of that night would depend the impression made on the West-India colonies, as to whether this country was prepared to extend relief to those valuable possessions, or whether it was resolved to abandon them to other Powers, that he could not in his conscience do otherwise than vote for the Amendment of the noble Marquis, He agreed, also, with the hon. member for Middlesex, that they were not to look for a diminution of the revenue equal to the reduction of the duty; for it had never happened yet, that, in an article of general consumption, a reduction of duty had not led to a considerable increase in its consumption; so that by extending this relief to the West Indies, the Government would also confer a great benefit on the consumer. He thought that the noble Lord ought not to dread so great a defalcation as that which he seemed to expect. At all events, he was prepared to go the length of the hon. member for Middlesex, and would risk the defalcation for the sake of showing to the West-India colonies, that, if it was possible to save them from ruin, this country would not be wanting in its efforts for that purpose, or give tokens of its being lost to every feeling in their behalf. He was one of those who thought that the colonies of this country were one of the great sources of its strength; and he never would, in accordance with the theories of political economists, concur in any resolution, or agree in any law, that should go to the detriment, or towards the destruction of our colonial interests, for the purpose of forwarding other interests which it was sup-
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posed were contrary to the former, but which he, for his part, believed to be perfectly compatible the one with the other. He thought it a pity, however, that the noble Lord, in his Amendment, had omitted to include East-India sugars; for the two colonies ought to be placed on precisely the same footing.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, that, on referring to the conduct of the Government, first, on the timber question, next, on the wine duties, and, lastly, on the present question, he could but think that their whole line of conduct was anti-colonial. He had so much of the conservative about him that he would never consent to the destruction of the colonies, though that seemed to be the favourite policy of the present Government. He concurred in the Motion of his noble friend, because any deficit in the revenue might be amended, but it would be impossible to remedy the desertion of the colonies in the present time of need, for to deny them relief was sufficient to induce the colonies to look to other countries for that protection which they ought to receive from Great Britain, but which would be denied to them if the noble Lord's proposition was agreed to. By refusing the colonies financial relief, a principle would be established which must suspend all their confidence in the British Parliament, and would lead to distrust and desperation, to jealousy and opposition.
Mr. Warburtonwas convinced, that the principle which should combine the interests of the consumer with those of the planter was the only one on which they could afford relief to the colonies; for anything that should throw new taxation on this country was, in his opinion, wholly inadmissible. It, therefore, seemed to him that they ought to reduce the sugar duties in amount pretty nearly on the plan proposed by the noble Marquis; though he thought that they might be reduced in a manner which would prove still more beneficial to the revenue, and afford still greater relief to the planter. The plan that he would propose was, that the duty should be so arranged as to produce an average reduction of 4s. in the cwt.; but, by imposing a smaller duty on the low-priced sugars, he thought that the justice of the case would be better met, and that it would have the effect also of producing a much more considerable consumption. The present consumption of sugar was four millions of cwts., upon which a re-

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duction of duty of 4s. per cwt. would amount to 800,000 l.; but, as a set off against this certain loss, by a diminution of duty to that extent, they must consider the increased amount of revenue which would arise by the increased consumption, from the price being lowered. If that increase of consumption should be so great as to absorb the excess of sugar produced in the colonies over the present consumption the revenue would not suffer. There could be no doubt that a great increase on the consumption had followed in the late reduction of the duties; the average price of sugars for the years 1825, 1826, and 1827, was 61 s. per cwt., and for the years 1829, 1830, and 1831, 53 s. per cwt, owing to which the consumption increased from 3,500,000 cwt. to 4,000,000 cwt., and if there had not been much distress in the country, that increase would have been still greater. But sugar was not the only article by which relief could be extended to the colonies by a reduction of duty; there was also molasses and rum. He also conceived a diminution ought to be made in the duties both on rum and molasses, by which the brewing of beer in this country would be advanced, and the public feel the benefit of the late reduction in the duty on that article of consumption, but from which the rise in the price of malt had prevented the public deriving all those advantages which it had been intended they should enjoy. He thought that these reductions should be made contemporaneously, to be of real benefit. At the same time, he concurred with what had fallen from the hon. Member opposite (Mr. C. Fergusson) with respect to the assimilating the duties on the East and West Indian sugars. He did not demand a lesser duty, but merely that they should be put upon the same footing by which the one country would be benefitted, and the other, would not be a sufferer. With respect to the conservative system, of which the hon. and learned Gentleman had spoken, he thought that it was that very thing which had proved injurious to the colonies, instead of beneficial; for there happened to be a conservative principle at home as well as abroad; and it was the operation of the conservative principle in favour of the landowners at home that had acted so much to the detriment of a fair market for West-India produce in this country. Though, to act consistently with his principles, he must vote for the Amendment, yet he should rather have deferred the reduction on the West-India
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sugars, until those from the East Indies could also be included in the plan, if that had been in his power.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonsaid, the hon. Gentleman had rather surprised him in the conclusion to which he came on announcing his vote to the House, for he had joined his support of the noble Lord's Amendment with several distinct propositions of his own, by way of contingencies. He must remark, also, that the question, as it had been argued during the present debate, involved considerable inconvenience, for frequent allusions had been made to the proceedings of the Committee up-stairs, although those proceedings were not yet laid on the Table of the House. [Mr. Goulbum: Some of the Resolutions had been read.] He was aware of that; but there were other Resolutions to which no allusion had been made, and they were surely bound to take the whole together, if they wished to arrive at a just conclusion. The hon. member for Dumfries, in alluding to those Resolutions, made a statement, from which he must dissent. That hon. Gentleman stated, that the effect of the Resolutions agreed to yesterday was, that a material benefit would arise to the West-India interests from a reduction of the duty on sugar, which would be likely to increase the consumption, and thereby take off the surplus produce. Gentlemen, who would take the trouble to consider the meaning of that Resolution, would find, that it states, that material relief would be afforded to the West-Indians, supposing, that by a reduction of the duty, the consumption at home was increased, and the supply for foreign countries sufficiently diminished. Now, he apprehended that no such contingency as was contemplated by the Resolution was likely to occur. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman who had spoken had not attempted to carry the argument to the extreme point to which it ought to be pushed. It must be admitted, that the effect of such a reduction, supposing that consumption were considerably increased, and the foreign supply diminished, would be, not to give relief to the West-Indians, to the full extent of the reduction of the duty, but to half the extent only, the other half going to the consumer, whose benefit was the ground on which he had always supported any reduction of taxes. In this case the advantages proposed to be given to both parties would not be commensurate with the loss to the revenue.

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There might be a rise of price, after the reduction of the duty had come into operation, and consumption had increased, but that would pro tanto diminish consumption, and, of course, diminish by so much the advantage expected to be derived by the West-Indians from such a circumstance. But what would be the ulterior consequences? Why, supposing that there was a rise of price to the amount of one-half of the duty taken off, and that was to affect all the markets of the world—that is, of 2s. out of the 4s., there would be an additional stimulus to the foreign colonist to increase his sugar cultivation; and that, whilst our colonists would find great difficulty in increasing their cultivation, the foreign colonists would have none at all, but would go on increasing their supply of sugar till, at last, the price again would fall; and, at the end of one or two years, the West-Indians would be in much the same situation as at present. Arguing, then, from these premises, as to what benefit a reduction of duty of 4s. per cwt. would give to the West-Indian interests, they must, in the first instance, deduct one-half of its amount, which would go to the consumer, and recollect that the other half would remain to them for a very limited period. To represent this question of a reduction of duty, with reference to the permanent interest of the West-Indian proprietor, was an entire delusion. They were called upon to make a sacrifice of revenue, to aid the suffering interests of the West Indies, while the benefit to be conferred upon them would not any thing like balance the loss of revenue that must accrue from the experiment proposed. It was stated by the noble Lord, the member for Liverpool, that he voted for this proposition, because it was necessary to show the colonists that the mother country had since sympathized with their distresses, and not that he expected much substantial relief would be afforded them by its adoption. Now, his noble friend, who had attended the Committee which had sat upon this subject, knew that, only that very day, three or four specific propositions, pointing out modes by which the West-Indians might be benefitted, were affirmed by that Committee; and his noble friend must have known, from what passed in the Committee, that there was throughout a concurrent feeling of anxiety to devise some means, by which relief might be afforded to the West Indies, compatible with the other interests of the country. The
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House was told, that the reduction in the duty would not be attended with any diminution of revenue. He certainly could not suppose, that the right hon. Gentleman, the member for the University of Cambridge, concurred in that opinion, for he remembered that he counted upon a considerable falling-off in the revenue on the occasion of the last reduction of the sugar duties; and the right hon. Gentleman was borne out by the fact, for he found that the diminution of the duty, up to November, 1831, was 350,000 l. The returns for the years 1830 and 1831 could not be compared with any degree of propriety, because, for one quarter of the former year, bounties were offered on the export of sugar; the operation of which would, of course, be calculated to mislead. No doubt, generally speaking, the reduction of duty upon an article was followed by such an increase of consumption as to go very far in making up the deficiency that would be otherwise occasioned to the revenue. But he did not think that this principle acted with its usual force in the case of sugar, for they had seen the most extraordinary decline in the price of sugar, which was the same thing as regarded consumption as a reduction of duty, and had not seen an increase of consumption at all in the ratio of that decline of price. Sugars had declined from 53 s. and 54 s. in bond to 24 s. in bond, the difference being equal to more than the amount of the whole duty, but there had been by no means a relative increase in the consumption. Without, therefore, denying the general principle that a diminished duty augmented consumption, he thought that, in this case, they could not reckon upon the deficiency of revenue occasioned by a reduction of the duty being filled up by increased consumption. He put it to the hon. member for Kircudbright and others, who had so sanguinely assumed this proposition, to consider, before they built upon such speculations, what was the amount of revenue which it was proposed to put in jeopardy by the Motion of the noble Lord opposite. It was no less than from 750,000 l. to 800,000 l. Supposing a defalcation to that extent took place, how, with the revenue in its present condition, could that loss be supplied? Hon. Gentlemen came down to the House, and talked largely of the necessity of maintaining public credit; and they had taunted his noble friend with the deficiency arising from a too sanguine calculation of the effects of a principle

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which hon. Gentlemen opposite were now supporting. But if, on former occasions, they had urged those considerations, with what confidence could they now support the Motion of the noble Marquis, the member for Buckinghamshire, when it would, according to all calculations, go to increase the deficiency, or to prevent it being filled up; and would thus leave the country, if not with a larger arrear than at present, certainly with a similar one next year? He would ask those Gentlemen—and, indeed, the whole House, for all were equally interested in the support of public credit—whether, by putting such a sum in jeopardy (and the most sanguine advocates for the principle now contended for could not expect that the deficiency would be made good in the first year of its operation), whether they were acting on principles of good faith with the public creditor? Were they prepared to make this sacrifice, without providing other means to meet the engagements the country had entered into with him. He objected, then, to this Motion, because the benefit that would be reaped by the West-Indians was not proportionate to the sacrifice the revenue would sustain. Even if that were not the case, he could not consent to afford this relief—supposing it were likely to be effectual, which he did not think it would—on terms that would place in the greatest possible danger the public faith of this country towards the national creditor. The lion, and learned Gentleman, the member for Kircudbright, had placed this proposition on grounds which he was scarcely warranted in assuming. He said, that it was necessary to agree to the Motion of the noble Lord, for the purpose of convincing the West-Indians, that this House was considering their interests. Now, he believed that the West-Indians would feel just as well satisfied of that fact by the Resolutions which had been agreed to that day in Committee, as by adopting this Amendment, not specifically proposed, but only hinted at by that Committee among the various measures of relief which it had suggested. The proposition made by his noble friend was, to continue the sugar duties according to their present rate for six months, and it was accompanied with a declaration, that he contemplated introducing some measures of fiscal relief for the West-Indians, but that relief would be coupled with conditions, without which he could not, consistently with the pledge he gave last year, grant it; and these con-
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ditions were, the adoption of such regulations in the colonies having legislatures of their own, as the Crown colonies might be subject to. He wished to ascertain how the hon. Members opposite proposed to deal with that question; he would ask hon. Gentlemen who took the same view of the subject as his noble friend, well to consider before they gave their vote in favour of the proposition of the noble Marquis, whether the result of his Motion being agreed to would not be, to take away all opportunity of redeeming that pledge? If the duty on sugar was reduced to 20 s. without adopting the principle laid down by his noble friend, of discriminating between the colonies, and conferring additional advantages on those which accepted the measures proposed by the mother country, the means of enforcing those measures would be destroyed. He said, then, that those Gentlemen who thought it advisable to redeem such pledge, or, at least, to give time to see how the regulations alluded to would be met in the colonies, and whether the local legislatures adopted them, would do well to consider whether the Resolution of the noble Lord would not annihilate all hope of redeeming that pledge, of enforcing that condition, and of doing that which, holding the principles they did, they must look upon as an imperative duty. In conclusion, he must say, that he hoped that those Gentlemen who wished to give relief to the West Indies would not support a measure which would be a benefit to the West Indies only proportionate to the half of the sum which would be lost to the revenue, while that loss, amounting to 750,000 l. or 800,000 l. would place the public credit in considerable danger.
Lord Sandonconsidered the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman anything but satisfactory. All that related to the measures of relief intended to be afforded by Government to the West-Indian interest was involved in uncertainty and mystery. He could not sufficiently regret that whenever any arguments were adduced in that House for, or in behalf of, any suffering commercial interest in the West Indies, it was sure to be met, by way of estoppel, by an allusion to the still stronger claims of suffering humanity, for purposes which it was not important that he should trace to their source. Difficulties, undoubtedly, did exist in the way of settling the question; but he could not allow, that a great interest was to be kept in a suffering condition until they were completely re-

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moved. He did not see how the question of humanity at all affected the subject before the House. The right hon. Gentleman had certainly said, that the vote would preclude the House from following up the resolution of last year, but that was by no means the case, for the further measures of fiscal relief which the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had in contemplation might be accompanied with the very conditions he had alluded to. When they had the measures of relief and their accompanying conditions before them, they could consider the two together, and see how far they would offer a boon to the West Indies.
Mr. Poulett Thomsondenied the charge of the noble Lord, that he had first introduced the subject of slavery to the notice of the House in conjunction with this question. When his noble friend (Lord Althorp) had stated his views to the House, and had explained what he intended to do for the West Indies, he had expressly stated that he should make it one of the conditions for determining his conduct, that the islands having legislatures of their own should adopt the regulation which had been adopted in the Crown colonies. With regard to his motives for making the observations the noble Lord had alluded to, if the noble Lord supposed that they were not as pure as any the noble Lord professed, he begged leave to give that supposition a flat contradiction.
Lord Sandonsaid, he did not quarrel with the proceedings of the noble Lord, but he did quarrel with the proceedings of the right hon. Gentleman for including in a discussion on the question whether the duties on sugar should be 20 s. or 24 s., the question of the condition of the slaves. If it were the intention of the Government that no relief should be given to the West Indies, unless they submitted to restrictions, why was that not stated before going into the Committee? He was astonished, if the Government entertained such opinions, that it should have made a grant of 100,000 l. to Barbadoes without first insisting on that island adopting the regulations. He begged not to be understood as attributing improper motives to the right hon. Gentleman.
Lord Howickdid not think the Committee exactly understood the manner in which the two propositions were connected. The cape stood thus. In April, 1831, his noble friend, on the occasion of the motion of the hon. member for Weymouth, stated,
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it to be his opinion, that the time was come at which it would be proper to enforce, by some means or other, upon the colonies—having Legislatures of their own—the adoption of certain measures with respect to slavery; and that, as a means of attaining that object, it was the intention of the Government to send out such a code of laws as would answer the wishes of Parliament and of the country; and the acceptance of which by any colony should be the condition of its benefitting by any financial relief that this country might be able to afford to our West-Indian possessions generally. In conformity with the intention so expressed, an order in Council was made on the 5th of November last. The hon. and learned member for Eye, took a large share in discussing that Order in Council, and he must be aware that, without a departure from the pledges of this House, in April last, it was impossible for his noble friend to propose any measure of relief to the planter, which should not be conditional in the manner he had stated. This had been duly intimated to colonies having legislatures of their own, and unless the House was prepared to abandon the measures to which it was solemnly pledged, any relief to the planter must be conditional. Suppose the Motion of the noble Lord was carried, what would be its effect? Why no relief whatever would be given to the colonies which were most distressed—such as Jamaica, Barbadoes, and Antigua—whilst Trinidad and Demerara, where the Order in Council of November last would apply from the time of its arrival, would send in their sugars under it; but the other colonies would want some months to consider the matter. If the reduction were to take place, therefore, from the 5th of April, with this condition attached to it, the Crown colonies would have a great advantage over the Legislative colonies. This, he believed, was the manner in which his noble friend put the question, and explained his reason for taking the duties for six months only. By this means, too, the House had a perfect assurance that, in the course of the present Session, the subject would be again brought before it; for if it were not, sugar, on account of the Act expiring in October, would subsequently come in duty free. Under these circumstances, and in justice, as his right hon. friend had stated, to the public creditor, who required that they should not make this large reduction of duty without providing for the deficiency

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that must result from it in the revenue, and injustice to the old colonies themselves, which were most distressed, they ought not to adopt the Amendment proposed by the noble Marquis, but rather agree to grant the duties for six months, and thus give all the colonies an opportunity of enjoying the advantage of whatever relief the House might be able to afford them.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, in the few observations he had to make, he would not permit himself to be diverted from the subject immediately before the House, or follow the noble Lord who had just sat down into the question of those ulterior measures, of which they had received notice in the last Session of Parliament, and which would undergo deliberate discussion at the proper time. He did not think those questions were immediately connected with the subject before the House. He considered the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was right in mentioning them in the manner he did, and in refraining from entering into further detail with respect to them. It would have been well if others who followed the noble Lord had taken the same view of the matter, instead of making unnecessary and undefinable allusions to ulterior measures. With respect to the question before the House, he had considered that it would have been desirable, if possible, to postpone this discussion until the noble Lord was enabled to make some statement to the House of his intention or power of relieving the West-Indian colonies from a part of their distress, or of informing them whether he had it in his power to afford them any relief whatever. He felt that, to enter into the discussion before that period, would be premature. It appeared that the noble Lord had despaired—in the interval which yet remained to him, before he was obliged to bring on this matter—of being able to state whether any relief could be afforded or not, or of submitting to Parliament distinctly what the ulterior views of the Government might be. They were called upon now, then, to come to the decision of the question before them, not so much upon, its merits as upon the consequences which must infallibly result from their proceeding in this matter with reference to the temper and feelings of those whose interests were materially bound up in the decision they might come to. He must confess that he never felt greater difficulty in arriving at a decision upon a question than upon that at present before them. He
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felt what he had often expressed in that House, that it was their great duty to maintain the revenue of the country at a height which would enable them to discharge all their obligations. He felt as strongly as the Vice President of the Board of Trade, the necessity of preventing any addition to the existing deficiency of the revenue. But, on the other hand, he also felt they could not say to the interests now at stake, "We were so unduly liberal to others last year, that the revenue is suffering, and, therefore, we cannot help you." He felt that it was unfair to them, that because, last year, immense and uncalled-for concessions was made to other interests of the country, therefore they must be neglected. He felt this the more, as when those concessions were made, he had objected to them on the ground of their reducing the revenue too much, and thereby preventing the House from making any concession in the very quarter that now applied for it. Impressed, then, more than ever with the advantage of maintaining a surplus revenue, acknowledging the fairness of the claim now preferred, and also, that the parties who at present applied, suffered in no ordinary degree, and far more than any of those classes to whom relief had been lately extended—he never was under greater embarrassment with respect to the decision he ought to come to, than at the present moment. He confessed, however, that if there was any truth in the documents on the Table—if there was any justice in the reasoning to be drawn from them—he could satisfy the House that the risk to the revenue, which would be incurred by the adoption of the proposition of his noble friend, was not much greater than that which would result from the proposition of the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which was simply to continue the sugar duties for six months—holding out to the country the expectation that, before the expiration of that period, some measures of fiscal relief to the West Indies would be carried into operation, in conjunction with the imposition of discriminating duties upon the produce of different colonies, according as they acquiesced or not in the views of Government upon another subject. What must be the effect of such a system upon the revenue must be considered. His noble friend, the member for Liverpool, had stated, that expectation would be excited, and the operations of trade embarrassed; and he asked any in-

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dividual, conversant not merely with the operations of trade, but with the feelings of human nature, whether he thought that any one would purchase sugar till such reduction of the duty should have taken place, or, at least, whether the consumption would not be previously reduced to the lowest possible amount? If the noble Lord had held out, that, at the end of six months he would raise the duty, why then, indeed, he would have had an increased revenue, from the increased quantity that would be taken out of bond; but, as this proposition now stood, he appealed to his own good sense to say, whether the proposal had not a tendency to reduce the consumption, and, consequently, the revenue, to the lowest possible amount? He said, then, that if the House adopted the proposition of the noble Lord, after the statement with which it was accompanied, the loss to the revenue would be very little inferior to what it would be if the duty were at once reduced by the amount proposed by his noble friend the member for Buckinghamshire. Add to this consideration, the motive which he supposed every man who regarded the interests of the colonies as interests important to the country, had to give some evidence in support of his solicitude on the subject, and they had sufficient justification for not adhering to the scale of duties now proposed by the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Vice President of the Board of Trade had attempted to show, that the reduction of 4s. in the duty would not produce that great extension of consumption which was necessary to give effectual relief to the West-Indians; and he was quite ready to agree with him, that, on the other hand, the reduction of that amount of duty, if the degree of consumption remained the same, would create a loss to the revenue of upwards of 700,000 l. But, when they looked at the documents on the Table of the House, they observed, that the last reduction of 3s. per cwt., instead of producing the loss of revenue, which every one calculated upon did not produce any at all. It was within the knowledge of the House that the sugar duties were reduced 3s. per cwt. from the 5th July, 1830. He agreed that the taking the year ending 5th July, 1831, would not be a fair mode of estimating the duty, as it would include a period from July to October, 1830, when an artificial excitement was given to the export trade in sugar. He would avoid that error in
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his calculation, and would take the half year ending 5th July, 1830, when there was no expectation of a reduction of duty, and compare it with the half year ending on July 5th, 1831, after the excitement had passed away. Taking that as the term of his comparison, he found that the amount of revenue obtained from sugar in the half year ending July 5, 1831, was more by 27,000 l. than the revenue obtained from sugar in the half year ending July 5, 1830, though the rate of duty was lower by 3s. The consumption had increased sufficient to make up that sum. He believed that the reduction of duty of 4s. would not cause any material deficiency of revenue, and he, therefore, would support the Motion for the reduction of duty; and he thought it would be particularly useful, not merely for the relief it would actually afford to the West Indies, but as a sign of the sympathy of the Legislature of this country with the colonies. It would contribute to rally around us all the strength and all the attachment of our colonies, which could not fail to be, in these critical times, of great importance.
Mr. Burgecontended, that the colonists were not now calling for what the noble Lord and his friends seemed to consider a boon, but for that which had been long promised, and denied them—an act of justice. Over and over again the colonists had been told, that the war duties on sugar should be repealed. It was for the House to consider, whether they would now refuse the little which was asked, or whether they would, by persisting in the course recommended by the Government, place the colonists in such a desperate condition as to render them unable to continue their connection with this country. The House was pledged to a reduction of these duties, and he asserted, that he was the best advocate for the public credit of the country, when he called on them for that reduction. He felt it his duty, at that moment, to abstain from making any comments on the effect of the fiscal regulations lately introduced. A better opportunity would arise for the discussion of that question. He would content himself, therefore, by expressing the gratification he felt on hearing the sympathy for the West-Indians which seemed to be felt by all who had spoken on the subject, and he hoped they would make that sympathy effectual, by voting for the proposition of the noble Lord.
Mr. Robinsonobserved, that the Vice President of the Board of Trade rested his

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strongest argument on that injury which a reduction would produce to the revenue—an injury so much greater than it was able at present to bear. Now, without admitting all the extent of that injury, he must say, that, before the Government made up their minds to give up voluntarily a million and a half of taxation last Session, they should have considered the sufferings of the colonists; for, in his opinion, the reduction of the duties on candles and on coals was not half so much required for the prosperity of the country as the reduction of the burthens of the colonies, with a view to the increase of the consumption of the articles they produced. He trusted that the House would consent to the present proposition, as the commencement of a course which would be productive of good rather than of loss to the revenue, while, at the same time, it would add much to the comforts of all classes of the people.
Mr. Patrick M. Stewartsaid, that the argument of every Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had been in office for some time past, on questions of this nature, had invariably been founded on economy. Their maxim had uniformly been, "my poverty, and not my will, consents." This state of the case placed the House in a very delicate and peculiar situation, because, under such circumstances it was necessarily called upon to decide between the distresses of the Exchequer, and the still greater distresses of a large portion of the community. He had listened with great attention to every thing that had been said with respect to this question, upon both sides of the House, and he concurred in the anxiety which every man must feel to preserve undiminished and untarnished the public credit. If he thought that, by voting in favour of the Amendment proposed by the noble Marquis, he should, in the slightest degree, place the revenue in jeopardy, he would refrain from doing so; and he would rather sacrifice what he conceived to be vast interests, though of an individual character, than adopt such a course. He agreed in every observation that had been made in support of the Amendment, which was sanctioned and recommended by the success which had attended experiments of the like description on articles of not a dissimilar nature, and there would be no risk whatever in adopting that plan. It had been said by the right hon. Gentleman, that the reduction proposed would cause a diminution of 700,000 l. or 800,000 l. Supposing that a decrease in the duty on sugar
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were to cause an increased consumption to the extent of 40,000 hogsheads, which was about the present surplus produced, and cause that quantity to be taken from the market, the duty payable on this quantity would be about 900,000 l. That was no vague idea or visionary notion. Chancellors of the Exchequer who had preceded the noble Lord, had found that such were the results of a reduction of duty. There was a case in point, coffee. Prior to 1808, a duty of 2s. 2d. was imposed upon that article; and that duty then produced 119,500 l. In the course of that year, the duty was reduced from 2s. 2d. to 7d.; and in 1809, the year after this deduction, the smaller duty produced 270,000 l. The duty on coffee had since been reduced to 6d., and it produced to the revenue about half a million of money. He would not trouble the Committee by entering into further details in support of this argument. He would only say, that the experience of every staple article of great national consumption would bear him out in this assertion. They all recollected the result of the arrangement which was made in the case of spirits. The duty was at once reduced thirty per cent, and the following year the quantity consumed increased upwards of fifty per cent, and the duty increased until it attained its present state. Standing upon this ground, therefore, and feeling as much disposed to take care of the revenue as the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, he was disposed to adopt the course which he had expressed his determination of following. The colonies were now in that state that something must be done for them; and he entreated the House to recollect, that this was a pressing and a peculiar juncture, that much misery and distress prevailed, and that it was absolutely necessary something should be attempted for the relief of the colonists. He also begged the House to recollect, that it was not now called upon to vote in favour of the colonies as an act of kindness or courtesy, but as an act of justice. He feared, with other hon. Members who had spoken, that there was a kind of anti-colonial feeling in the House, and a wish to undervalue the importance of the colonies, which he most sincerely lamented. Buonaparte held a different opinion. "After many unsuccessful and fruitless attempts, I find," he said, "that I cannot conquer England while she retains her colonies." He would only say, in allusion to that opinion, in the

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words of one who had passed much of his time in inspecting, and who so well treated of, our colonial institutions, "Some politicians, with more rhetoric than information, are disposed to hold these things too cheap; but every seaman, every merchant, and every practical statesman, knows their inestimable value." In this opinion he most heartily and entirely concurred. He might be prejudiced, because his lot in life was dependent upon the prosperity of these colonies; but if he could divest himself of that feeling—if he could look at them with a wider eye, as an individual perfectly unconnected with them; seeing the great advantages they produced to this country, he should say, that the country was mainly dependent for its welfare on the prosperity of its colonies, and that it was its duty to protect them and relieve their distresses. To give his vote effect, he would beg leave to read to the House a short quotation from a memorable debate which took place about eighteen months ago. The right hon. Gentleman, the Vice President of the Board of Trade, took a distinguished part in that debate. What was his opinion? Why that the duties on sugar should be reduced to this identical amount. In that same debate, Mr. Huskisson said:—"Feeling, however, as I do upon this subject, I say openly, that even if we were to suffer for the next six months some loss, such, in my conscience, do I believe to be the deplorable state of the planters in those colonies—such is the suffering and distress to which many highly respectable families, and the children of affluent parents, have been reduced, by the general fall in the prices of all West-India produce—that I think it would be a wise and sound policy, on the part of the Parliament of this country, to manifest its sympathy and its feeling for that long-suffering class of our fellow-subjects, by offering, even at some temporary inconvenience to ourselves, all that relief and assistance which, in the present distressed and embarrassed condition of all classes, it is in our power to give them. Much as the West Indians have been promised, from time to time, nothing has as yet been done for them. Up to this hour, although every class in the country has received some relief, nothing has been done for them. No attempt has been made to relieve their staple commodity from the burthen which oppresses it, although the reductions which have been made in the duties on coffee, and other articles of the same description, give us rea-
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son to hope, that the effect of such relief would tend to increase, rather than diminish, that revenue, which is supposed to offer the obstacle."* Agreeing in that opinion, he should give his vote in favour of the noble Lord.
Mr. Adeaneexpressed his determination to support the proposition of the noble Lord, both on account of the relief it would afford the colonists, and the addition which it would make to the comforts of the poorer classes in this country. If he thought the reduction of duty would amount to anything like 700,000 l. or 800,000 l.—he might pause before he agreed to injure the revenue to that extent, but being convinced it could not reach 400,000 l., he would not allow the fear of a reduction of that amount to prevent his consenting to an act of policy and justice.
Mr. Huntagreed, also, that the reduction could not operate injuriously, and he would, therefore, vote for it. It was a question, indeed, from the condition of the people of this country, whether the continuance of such high duties would not lead to a reduction of revenue by a diminution of consumption? The reduction of the duty would be a benefit both to the consumers in England, and the planters in the West Indies, and it should have his cordial support. Considering the state of both classes, he would willingly vote for a still larger reduction of the duty, if any body would propose it. That the men who had formerly brought forward a measure to reduce these duties should now propose to continue them did not surprise him, for he knew how men changed their opinions with their seats. Whenever they found themselves fixed on the Treasury bench, the Treasury must be, above all things, supported. If, however, Ministers had thought more of the Treasury when they were voting away large sums for the support of a large standing army, and for answering other unnecessary expenses, perhaps they might have done more on this occasion. Such was the state of poverty into which the lower classes were plunged, that tea and sugar were, with many, their best support, and, therefore, he contended, under all the circumstances, this reduction ought to be made.
Mr. Baringthought, on the whole, this discussion had been of a satisfactory character, inasmuch as Gentlemen
* Hansard's Parl. Debates, New Series, vol. xxv. p, 533.

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had consulted their own opinions and independence in the consideration of this important question. This had afforded him great pleasure, because all questions affecting the commerce of the country ought to be especially decided without reference to party feeling. He had upon all occasions endeavoured most conscientiously to divest his mind of political friendships, whenever such questions had been brought under the notice of the House. On this occasion, however, he was free to confess, that he felt the welfare of our colonies was important to the well-being of the country. Under this impression, he would beg to make a few remarks upon the subject now under discussion. He had been taunted with having observed at one time, that the silk trade seemed to be a condemned trade in this country. He might, he thought, with equal justice say now, that the colonists were a condemned body in the community. The course pursued towards them was, undoubtedly, that which was only justifiable towards the convicted; but it was with him a serious consideration, whether they might not obtain a full sense of the value and importance of the West Indies, when that knowledge would be too late. With respect, however, to the present proposition, he must say, he thought it could do no good to this country, or afford any material relief to the sufferers, although, as the expression of sympathy, it might, in the present state of their affairs, be of some service. The real question was, however, just this—would a reduction of duty increase the revenue? He thought not. And in the present financial condition of this country, he could not, under such circumstances, hazard so large a portion of revenue on the experiment proposed by the noble Lord. He must add, at the same time, that he deprecated these votes for six months, because they gave a check to commercial transactions, and unsettled all the arrangements of trade. No man could, indeed, be expected to hazard his capital in any undertaking, when the permanency of the regulations affecting it was so uncertain. He did not wish to enter into the question of the fiscal regulations applied to the colonies; but this he would say, that the West-Indians were so much reduced in credit by hurricanes and by insurrections, that no man connected with them could raise money on his property there, even at two years' purchase, to build up again his fallen fortunes. Without, however, pursuing this subject
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further, he would say, that he must give his vote at present in defence of the revenue, and in opposition to the Motion of the noble Lord.
Mr. Fowell Buxtonsaid, that in his vote, he should only be influenced by what would benefit the negro; and, although he had no hostility to the West-Indian interest, yet when he knew that every relief to the planter would only be the cause of additional work to the negro, he would not vote for the present Amendment. If the question respecting the West Indies were not speedily settled, it would settle itself in an alarming way, and the only way in which it could be settled was, by the extinction of slavery. The noble Lord was, in his opinion, right to refuse the planters relief until the planters had granted the amelioration to which they were pledged. When he heard of insurrection, he was not much surprised at it, and was convinced, that nothing effectual would be done to suppress it until the question of the extinction of slavery was set at rest. Being of opinion that the Chancellor of the Exchequer's plan of combining relief to the planter with the amelioration of the negro's condition was good, he would vote against the Amendment.
Mr. Jamessaid, that he would not, like the last speaker, enter upon the question of slavery, and he certainly did not believe the statement made by the hon. member, that relief to the planter was not attended with relief to the slave. What he rose to propose was, that an ad valorem duty should be laid upon sugar, as it was unjust to the planter who, like himself, was obliged to sell at 40 s., to pay as much as the man who sold at 60 s. the cwt. Although a West-Indian proprietor, he was, nevertheless, unwilling to embarrass the Government at the present moment; and, because he believed they would do every thing in their power to relieve that body as soon as possible, he would vote against the Amendment.
Mr. Warburton, in explanation, said, that he wished to lower the duty on the lower-priced sugar, but not on the higher, as the best means of increasing the consumption. He must, however, vote with Ministers in the first instance, for if the noble Marquis's Amendment were carried, he (Mr. Warburton) would be precluded from proposing his.
Mr. Goulburnobserved, that, on the contrary, if the hon. Gentleman voted that the duties should continue, he would have

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no power to propose a reduction of any of them. If, however, he voted for the lower rate of duty, he might afterwards propose an ascending scale.
The Committee divided on the Amendment: Ayes 134; Noes 148—Majority 14.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—BILL FOR ENGLAND—COMMITTEE—TWENTIETH DAY.
On the Motion of Lord John Russell, the House went into Committee on the Reform of Parliament (England) Bill.
The question having been put, that South Shields, Durham, stand part of schedule D,
Mr. Crokersaid, that this was another of the Durham boroughs to which he begged to call the attention of the House. By a reference to a paper which had been quoted the other evening by the noble Lord opposite, entitled "a Return of the Population of every Place not now returning Representatives to Parliament, the Population of which exceeds 5,000 Inhabitants," it appeared that the chapelry of South Shields, contained 9,074 inhabitants, and paid the enormous sum in assessed taxes of 900 l. a year. The position of this town was this: it was six or seven miles from Gateshead, seven or eight miles from Newcastle, one furlong from the new borough of North Shields, and five miles from the new borough of Sunderland. Thus, within a circle, the radius of which was five miles, there were five boroughs and seven Members. It might well be asked, why was not this town joined to some other of these boroughs? and at all events why should the two towns of North and South Shields be separated as to their representation, when they were identified in their interests and local situations; and being united rather than separated by the river Tyne, they had a complete community of feeling. As to population and the other elements of representation, South Shields was as well as Walsall and Whitley inferior to many unrepresented places; it had, moreover, been asserted, that the freemen of Newcastle lived in considerable numbers in these towns, and that, consequently, they had the less claim for separate Representation. He had so frequently endeavoured to invite the attention of the House to the monstrous anomalies, and inconsistencies, and absurdities, in which the present Bill abounded, that he felt unwilling to detain the Committee long on the monstrous inconsistency—on every principle
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in which Ministers professed to base their measures—of bestowing Representatives to South Shields, while towns far exceeding it in commercial importance, in wealth, and population, were left wholly unrepresented. This was a proposition which facts placed beyond the reach of controversy, and to these facts he would now earnestly invite the attention of the consistent supporters of Reform. Ministers told them that, in bestowing the franchise on towns at present not enjoying the privilege of returning Members to that House, they were guided by the average of population and assessed taxes. Be it so. Then what was the population of South Shields, and what the amount of assessed taxes collected in it? Answer—9074 inhabitants; assessed taxes, 900 l. It followed that, on their own principles, every town not now possessing the right of franchise which exceeded South Shields in population, and contributed more towards the assessed taxes, was, a fortiori, entitled to the privilege of sending Members to that House. Now, without scouring the country for cases in point, he need only state the population and assessed taxes of thirteen or fourteen towns wholly neglected in the present Bill, to show that South Shields could not be invested with the franchise right without gross injustice to those places, and still grosser inconsistency on the part of the framers of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman then read a statement to the effect of the following table:—

Population

Assessed Taxes.

£

South Shields

9,074

900

Stourbridge

6,148

1,500

Warminster

6,115

1,560

Alnwick

6,788

1,400

Congleton

9,300

Average assessed taxes three times more than that of South Shields.

Mansfield

9,400

Trowbridge

10,800

Barminster

10,300

Loughborough

10,100

Ramsgate

7,900

Tunbridge

10,300

Gosport

12,137

Doncaster

10,800

Margate

10,039

Croydon

12,450

He would ask the supporters of the Bill on what principle of consistency could they vote for the present clause, which invested South Shields, the least important place in the foregoing list, with the right of returning a Member, while the other more important towns were not to have a single Representative among them? It should be recollected, besides, that South Shields

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was within a stone's throw of a place returning a Member, and in the neighbourhood of four or five boroughs, while the above-named towns were most of them separated by a large distance from any represented place. But, indeed, after the case of Merthyr Tydvil, with its 24,000 inhabitants, and separated by twenty-six miles from any place returning a Member; and Toxtethpark, with its 25,000 unrepresented inhabitants, he almost despaired of succeeding in establishing a case for Croydon or Margate. He wished to impress on the Committee that those other towns were increasing in population in a much more rapid manner than South Shields. That was an additional reason why it should not receive a Member. He was aware that Ministers had endeavoured to bolster up South Shields by annexing to it Westoe, so as to make the aggregate population 18,600. Had they acted in the same way towards the places he had just named, he was confident that the disproportion, and thence the injustice and inconsistency, would appear the greater. In conclusion, the right hon. Gentleman moved, as an amendment, "That South Shields be omitted in this schedule, and that North and South Shields be united with Tynemouth and given one Member." The Member thus saved might be given to some other borough, at the future discretion of the Committee. It was not for him to select the town which should receive the gift; all he contended for was, that there were many more deserving of it than South Shields.
Lord Althorpsaid, that, on discussing this case in the last Session of Parliament, he fully explained the principle on which Government proposed to give a Representative to South Shields; he would, therefore, content himself by saying, that Government thought South Shields entitled to be considered a separate borough, as constituting a port in which the shipping interest was much concerned.
Mr. Crokerwas surprised the noble Lord had rested the case of South Shields upon such narrow ground, when it was notorious that it formed part and parcel of the port of Newcastle, and had not even a separate Custom-house or collector. He would maintain that Government were treating the rest of the shipping interest unequally as compared with the coal-shipping connected with the Tyne. Was there no shipping interest on the Mersey? It appeared, however, that the noble Lord considered that the shipping interest, when, connected with
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sugar or lea, cotton or timber, deserved no favour. All the Ministerial sympathy was directed to colliers. He would leave it to the Committee to decide whether the shipping interest generally could be protected by giving a number of Representatives to a particular portion of it.
Mr. Hodgsonsaid, with regard to the shipping interest of the Mersey, he must state to the right hon. Gentleman that a great part of it consisted of vessels hired from the Tyne and other rivers. As to the population of South Shields, it was true that the inhabitants of the actual town did not consist of more than 9,000, but there was a continuous line of houses reaching into the adjoining township of Weston, and the united population exceeded 18,000 souls. With respect to its increase, it had been enlarged nearly one-third since the year 1821; the Tyne also was broader than had been represented by the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Crokerreferred to the reports of the Commissioners in corroboration of what he had said, "And," concluded the right hon. Gentleman, "now that I have confuted Government out of their own documents, does the hon. Member dare to repeat his contradiction?"
Mr. Hodgsonanswered, that he would never so far violate the rules of the House as to notice the expression of the right hon. Gentleman in the language it deserved, but he would tell him, in all parliamentary courtesy, that he flung him back his offensive term with indignation, and should he venture to repeat it elsewhere, he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that it would elicit from him a very different kind of reply.
Mr. Crokerexplained, that he did not mean to cast any imputation on the hon. Member, but surely he ought not to have hastily contradicted him when he was only stating what he had found in those sources of information which Government themselves had supplied him.
Mr. Goulburncontended that Government were dealing partially by South Shields, judging of the case merely on their own principles of Representation.
Mr. Stuart Wortleycomplained that a different principle was applied to Sunderland and Bishop Wearmouth, and South and North Shields, although in each case the two places were divided by a river, and in population, number of houses, and taxation, they were circumstanced alike.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the two Shields

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were more completely separated by the Tyne than Sunderland and Bishop Wearmouth by the Wear.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, that this was a flagrant violation of the principle laid down by the noble Lord. It had been understood as one of the principles upon which this new Constitution was to be framed, that the places having Representatives should be at a reasonable distance from each other. Now, in the county of Durham, there were nine Members in the short space of thirteen miles.
Lord Granville Somersetwished that the noble Lord had looked to Bristol and the river Severn, as well as to the north-east coast of England, and the river Tyne. The trade of the Severn was increasing very fast, and deserved more regard.
Mr. Crokerobserved, that Darlington had 2,000 inhabitants more than South Shields, yet it had no Member. The noble Lord had not been so ready to give weight to the shipping interest in the case of Dartmouth, though the eighth port in England in the scale of importance as to shipping, whilst the shipping interest of Shields was already sufficiently represented by Newcastle.
Mr. Trevorsaid, that this was only one of the anomalies of the Bill, which would be handed down to posterity as the greatest concatenation of folly ever known.
Mr. Crokerthought it unnecessary to divide the Committee. Bad as this case was, he supposed they would meet with a worse; for, as Shakspeare said, "Each seems monstrous till its fellow comes to match it."
Question agreed to; and South Shields was ordered to stand part of the schedule, as was Tynemouth, without objection.
The question was then put, that Wakefield (Yorkshire) stand part of schedule D.
Mr. Crokerwished to know the reason why the boundaries of this borough were made so narrow?
Mr. Littletonsaid, that nothing was to be gained by extending them.
Mr. Crokerdesired to know what the hon. Member meant by saying that nothing was to be "gained" by extending the limits?
Mr. Littletonasked, what were the limits which the hon. Member would propose?
Mr. Crokersaid, that it was not his business to settle the limits. He was not one of the Commissioners hired to settle these limits.
Lord Althorpthought that there could
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be no doubt that the hon. Member for Staffordshire meant, by saying that nothing could be gained by estimating the limits, that no constituency of any importance would be added to the borough. The right hon. Gentleman was also incorrect in supposing the hon. member for Staffordshire received any salary as a Commissioner; his services were perfectly gratuitous.
Mr. Littleton, in reference to the terms in which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Croker) had thought proper to allude to him, would only ask, what would be the feelings of that Gentleman himself, had it been said of him that he was hired to perform the part he took in the business of that House?
Mr. Crokerknew that the hon. Gentleman was not paid by any salary for his services as a Commissioner, but he supposed that the other Commissioners were, and it was for those who were so paid, to answer the hon. Gentleman's question.
Question agreed to.
The House resumed. Committee to sit again.