Commons Sitting of 30 July 1832

MINUTES.
Papers ordered. On the Motion of Colonel EVANS, an Account of the Number of Rate-payers in the different Metropolitan Parishes, and of those who had paid the Rates on or before the 5th of April last.
Bills. Read a second time;.—Army Half Pay; Franking; Audit of Accounts (Ireland); Excise Accounts (Scotland).
Petitions presented. By Mr. LEFROY, from Rathcormack, for the Abolition of Slavery; and from the Orange Lodge No. 362, against the Grant to Maynooth College.—By Mr. WILKS, from Boston,—in favour of the Bribery at Elections Bill.—By Mr. HODGES, from Middle Kent, against the Malt Duty.—By Mr. SADLER, from Charles Stewart and Alexander Deans complaining that they had been turned out of their Employments for the Evidence they had given before the Committee of that House sitting to inquire into the operation of the Factory Regulations, and praying Relief and Compensation.

POSTMASTER GENERAL.
Lord William Lennoxsaid, in consequence of some observations that had been made upon a former evening respecting the conduct of his noble relative, the Postmaster-general, in now taking the salary which for some months he had refused to take, he was anxious to lay before the House the documents connected with the transaction, and which would show it in its proper light. In so doing, he begged to state, he did not mean to impute the slightest blame to those hon. Members who had felt it necessary to allude to his noble relative. The

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conduct of public men ought to be fully and fairly discussed. Any false impression ought to be removed; and he was happy in having an opportunity of letting the House judge how the case stood. He begged to move for copies of the correspondence between Mr. Spring Rice, by order of the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, and the Postmaster-general.
Mr. Spring Ricebore testimony that the Duke of Richmond and Lord Privy Seal had only taken the emoluments of their several offices at the special instance of the Treasury, and in pursuance of the Report of a Select Committee.
Mr. Robinsonsaid, that his only remark was, to express his regret that the noble Duke had ever signified a desire to relinquish the salary attached to his office.
Lord William Lennoxhad understood that some sneer had been levelled at his noble relative. He was, unfortunately, not then present. An allusion had been made to the starving peasantry of Goodwood, He was happy no insinuations were made.
Return ordered.

COTTON TRADE—STATISTICAL RETURNS.
Lord William Lennoxmoved for a Return of the quantity of Cotton imported into this country during the last year.
Mr. Littletonthought this a good opportunity for urging the expediency of having a volume containing a statement of the commercial situation of the country laid upon the Table at the commencement of every Session of Parliament. He knew that his right hon. friend had been exerting himself in this matter, and he wished to inquire if there was any probability of such a volume being prepared and laid on the Table?
Mr. Poulett Thomsonfully concurred in the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman, a compliance with which would, in the long run, be the means of saving a large sum of money to the country. A plan for the purpose had been nearly matured, and it was the intention of Ministers to act upon it in the approaching Session, The documents then presented would not be confined merely to exports and imports; but would also relate to the internal statistics of the country, so as to give every Member who chose to inspect them, a clear insight into its prospects and condition. Of course the first attempt of the kind must necessarily be imperfect, and it would be
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capable, perhaps, of great improvements; but at all events, it would render needless many of the Motions for Returns, the preparation of which at present cost annually so large a sum of the public money.
Mr. Courtenaysaid, there could be no doubt as to the utility of such a volume as that to which the right hon. Gentleman referred; but it was unfair on his part to leave the House to infer that this proposed work commenced with him. So far from that being the case, he could assure the hon. member for Staffordshire, that he at first took the compliment, with which the hon. Member closed his remarks, to himself. When he was at the Board of Trade, he employed himself in drawing up such an account, though he certainly had not the advantage which the right hon. Gentleman appeared to have had by way of assistance, for nothing was incurred in the shape of expense. A man ought not to talk of himself; but he might say, that the statement he drew up, was declared by an eminent merchant of Liverpool, to be worth all the papers that had ever been printed on the subject. That account, however, could only be made up one year in arrear. He wished every success to the plan in which his Majesty's Government was engaged; but he could not suffer it to be said, that these improvements began with them.
Mr. Spring Ricehoped that this arrangement might be improved in such a way as to give every requisite information. But he wished to refer to an observation made by the right hon. member for Totness, from which it might be inferred, that the undertaking would involve the country in expense. On the contrary, by it a great saving would be effected. The necessity of such a work was almost superseded, while compiling it was rendered comparatively easy by Mr. M'Culloch's work, which contained a great mass of information upon these subjects. He meant the Commercial Dictionary, a book admirably arranged.
Returns ordered.

STEAM NAVIGATION BILL.
Mr. Alderman Woodcomplained that the hon. member for Glasgow (Mr. Dixon), had, on Saturday, in a most unprecedented manner, taken the Steam Navigation Bill out of his hands, and by moving that it be read a second time that day six months, had defeated the measure.
Mr. Dixonreplied that he had done so, with full notice to the hon. Alderman, who nevertheless persisted in quitting the House, although apparently not at all indisposed. He denied, therefore, that he had taken any unfair advantage of the absence of the principal supporter of the Bill.
Mr. Alderman Woodmust continue to think himself aggrieved, and unjustly treated, for he had never heard of a measure being taken, as was done by the hon. Member, out of the hands of the person who introduced it.

RETIREMENT OF THE SPEAKER.
The Speakeraddressed the House in nearly the following terms:—As the state of the public business indicates, at the present moment, the near approach of the close of the Session, and as I know not how close on the termination of this Session there may be a dissolution of Parliament, I hope the House will not deem me unreasonable in requesting to be allowed to present myself to their notice before my seat in this Chair shall be brought to a final conclusion. I have had the honour and the pride to be elected to fill this Chair in six successive Parliaments. I have at all times been impressed with the conviction, that the first and most important duties of the Speaker, were to maintain the strictest watchfulness over his own conduct, and to keep alive the watchfulness of this House in the maintenance of all their rights, privileges, and independence; to facilitate, as far as was within his power, the regular course of all public business; and to conduct himself to the House at large, and to every individual Member of it, with the strictest impartiality. I can most conscientiously, and I hope it will not be attributed to me that I speak arrogantly, when I boldly say that I have served this office with the strictest impartiality. I have not the temerity to place myself in contrast or comparison with any of my predecessors; but among the various duties that have been, by circumstances, imposed upon me, always laborious, often difficult and delicate, I have been cheered and upheld by the best encouragement and support—by the constant co-operation, the confidence, and the approbation of the House. I therefore hope that in my conduct in this Chair I have not been wholly inefficient; for, however various have been the changes during these successive Parliaments in the returns
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of Members of this House, I at least have seen no change in the kindness, the consideration, and the assistance, that all the Members have willingly afforded me; that kindness has been uniform and unvaried. I ought, after this announcement, no longer to trespass on your time; but, conscious as I am, and as every man must be, of the great variety of imperfections under which I labour, there is one to which I particularly wish to refer, and if at any time through infirmity of temper, or pressure of indisposition, there has been any inattentiveness or hastiness on my part, it must be attributed to these causes; incivility, I hope, there has never been. To any Member of this House to whom I may have appeared inattentive or hasty, I beg to express my most sincere and hearty regret. It is not, I hope, consistent with the general turn of my nature. I know it is inconsistent with the discharge of my duty. Before I go, the House, I hope, will pardon me for taking this opportunity of saying, that in my endeavours to discharge my duty, I am conscious that I must have committed many faults. The House, I am persuaded, will pardon them; and suffer me to say in one sentence, which proceeds from the fulness of my heart, that I owe them a debt of gratitude which it is impossible to describe, which any power of language, at least any that I possess, must inadequately express, but of which the deep and lasting recollection neither time nor circumstances can ever efface. [The right hon. Gentleman, who spoke throughout with very observable emotion, sat down amidst the loud and continued cheering of the House.]
Lord Althorpsaid, what I have just heard from you, Sir, I have heard with deep regret, because it announces to us the loss of your most valuable services; and I am sure I speak the sentiments of every Gentleman in this House, in saying, that in every respect those services have been most valuable to this House and the country. I have had the honour of a seat in this House during the whole of the period that you have sat in that Chair, I was present at the period of your election, and I hope I may be permitted to say that, although on that occasion I did not agree with the majority, yet, that subsequent experience proved to me, that which I am happy now to have the opportunity of stating publicly, as I have often before stated it in private, that the House could

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not at that period have selected any individual better qualified than yourself to sustain your high station. That station is one of great difficulty; you have to maintain the order of this House; but your peculiar felicity in the discharge of that difficult duty has been to exhibit the greatest urbanity of manner, the greatest kindness towards every Member of this House; and I am sure that every Member will agree with me in saying, that by the exhibition of those qualities you have greatly facilitated the discharge of your duty, and have entitled yourself to the gratitude of us all. You have, during the course of the period you have sat in that Chair, been called on for a degree of exertion which I believe has never before been required from any Speaker. Although others have sat as Speakers for a longer period, no one has had such laborious duties to perform, and I am perfectly confident that no one ever performed those duties in a manner more satisfactory. I have personally felt the great kindness which you have always been ready to show. You have assisted us when we have been in difficulties. Instead of standing strictly upon forms, you have gone out of your way to assist us in the conduct of business, and I am perfectly satisfied, from long experience in this House, that you have facilitated the despatch of public business with the greatest credit to yourself, with advantage to the public, and in such a manner that we are never likely to see exceeded, if we see it equalled. The feeling of regret which I have expressed is, I assure you, Sir, the sincere feeling of my heart. I am most sorry that we should lose the advantage of your services. I should have been most happy that you should have taken the Chair in the new Parliament; for your experience would have conduced greatly to the advantage of the public. We cannot, however, call on you to make greater sacrifices than you have already made; and the only thing we can do is, to regret the loss of your services, and to hope that your place may be supplied by one who will endeavour to follow your example. I now address myself to the House: I am confident that there will be no dissentient voice on the Motion which I am about to submit to the House. The feelings of every one must lead him to wish that we should pass a Vote of Thanks to the Speaker; and it will therefore not be necessary
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that I should urge any arguments in favour of my Motion. I shall conclude by moving, "That the thanks of this House be given to the right hon. Charles Manners Sutton, Speaker of this House, for his eminent services in the six Parliaments, during which he has discharged the duties of Speaker with a zeal and ability alike honourable to himself and conducive to the progress of public business; that he be assured that this House feel the strongest sense of the advantage which it has derived from his attachment to the interests of his country, from his unwearied assiduity during a period of unexampled labour in this House, from the steadiness and firmness with which he has on all occasions maintained the dignity and privileges of the Commons House of Parliament, from the attention which he has paid to the order of our proceedings, and from the urbanity and kindness which he has uniformly displayed in the discharge of his high and important duties."
Mr. Goulburnsaid, he trusted he might be permitted to have the honour of seconding this Motion. He (Mr. Goulburn), like the noble Lord, had been one of those who was present at the right hon. Gentleman's election, and, like him, he could bear the strongest testimony to the unvarying propriety of the right hon. Gentleman's conduct in the Chair. He stood, in one respect, in a peculiar situation towards the right hon. Gentleman. He had the benefit of his early acquaintance, and on the occasion of his being elected Chairman of that House, he was convinced that, in supporting his nomination, those advantages would arise from it that had been enumerated by the noble Lord. He could well remember, that although there had been two candidates for the office, there was not, he believed, one dissentient voice as to the qualification of the individual elected, however there might have been, with some, a preference of one candidate to the other. At that time none expressed a doubt as to the propriety of the choice made by the House, except the right hon. Gentleman himself. There was no task more difficult than to state particular grounds of approbation where all had proved so satisfactory. He should not, therefore, enter into a detail of the manner in which the duties of the Chair had been discharged. All must be aware of that urbanity which had been uniformly displayed towards every Member of the

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House, and by which their dignity had teen maintained on occasions of the most trying nature. He had not the least doubt that hereafter, when any individual reviewed the last fifteen years of the proceedings of Parliament—if he looked upon them as an impartial historian—he doubted not that he would record them as forming a period of our history, when the rights of the House of Commons were best upheld with the least pretensions. The right hon. Gentleman was not only entitled to official consideration, but every Member of that House was bound to him by the ties of affection. He would not detain the House further than by adding the expression of his regret—a regret which must be common to all who heard him—that the period had now arrived when they must of necessity be deprived of services so valuable. He must be permitted to say, that whether it pleased the right hon. Gentleman to retire into the walks of private life, or to continue to take an interest, or a part, in the great concerns of the nation, whichever of these alternatives he might adopt, that House and the country would retain a grateful recollection of his services, which throughout the empire, had awakened one concurrent voice of approbation.
Mr. Littleton: I cannot let this subject pass without bearing my testimony to the preeminent services which you. Sir, have rendered to the House and to the country by your superintendence of the parliamentary business. The 800, or, perhaps, the 1,000 Gentlemen who have formed the House during the fifteen years you have filled that Chair, will bear testimony to the qualities by which you have never failed to adorn the station you have occupied. I should feel extremely sorry if I allowed this opportunity to pass without observing upon one point, with which, in my capacity of a county Member, I am, perhaps, more conversant than many other Members who have seats in the House. I allude, Sir, to the constant and vigilant attendance which you have so beneficially given to the purification of the proceedings which relate to private bills, as well as to your excessive kindness and urbanity towards all Members who have been under the necessity of seeking your advice on such occasions. I feel, and I am sure very many who now hear me must also feel, that we have often trespassed too largely upon those moments when you had retired from
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the arduous duties of that Chair, and when you had every claim to remain undisturbed and uninterrupted in the relaxation essential to your health. I cannot, however, resist my sense of duty in reciting this one essential fact, that, in the first Session of Parliament in which you filled that Chair, one bill in five was found in some respect, to be informal, and contrary to the Standing Orders of the House; whilst, in this last Session, owing, Sir, to the proceedings which you have established, the proportion has been only one defective bill in seventeen. The public have gained greatly by these arrangements, as well as by your general vigilance. It would be in bad taste, and, perhaps, unpleasant to you, Sir, were I to think it necessary to detail elaborately the value of your services—services which have spoken for themselves so eloquently, and with such powerful results. Although I will abstain from this, I yet could not, without injustice to my own feelings, and a violation of what I consider my public duty, but advert to these facts, especially in relation to my having seconded the Motion that you should take the Chair in the year 1817. I am sure, Sir, that in the observations which I have made I have only spoken the sentiments of the class of Members to which I belong.
Sir Francis Burdett: I should not feel satisfied with myself, Sir, if I were to sit still without stating the result of my experience of your conduct in that Chair. In one point only do I differ from the noble Lord who has made this Motion. Like him, I am satisfied that the House could not have elected any one better qualified to fill your high office than yourself; but, unlike him, I thought so at the time of your election; and I had the good fortune—not being swayed, as I hope I never was nor ever shall be under such circumstances by feelings of a political cast—I did then, and I say now with pride that I did it—I did myself the honour of voting for your appointment to the Chair. I repeat, that I am proud and honoured by having given that vote. Your ability all are ready to acknowledge; but if there is any one thing which more than another gives a greater dignity to your office it is not merely your ability or your independence, but under every circumstance of difficulty, your gentlemanly deportment. I will not say, that the persons who come after you will not be able to equal you in this merit; but this I

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will say, with the utmost confidence, that it is quite impossible any person should ever be your superior. And this will be, in my opinion, the great difficulty we shall feel in finding a fit successor. The labours you have undergone are such as were never surpassed, and, I believe, never equalled by any former Speaker; and, excepting one day, on one melancholy occasion, you have never been absent from the discharge of your duty. Most heartily and cordially do I agree with the Motion of the noble Lord.
Sir George Murray: I most cordially concur with the Motion of the noble Lord, and beg to take this opportunity of expressing my conviction of the excellent manner in which the business of this House has been conducted while under your management. I regret most deeply that the business of the new Parliament is not to commence under your guidance. We are about to try a great experiment; and I hope every one will give me credit for sincerity when I say that I am most anxious that that experiment should be successful. I am anxious that the House should enter on that experiment with every possible advantage, and there is no advantage more important than that the Chair of this House should be filled by a Speaker possessing extensive knowledge of the laws and usages of Parliament, and be qualified by those endowments which have so eminently distinguished you, and especially by that gentlemanly deportment to which the hon. Baronet has alluded.
Lord John Russell: I cannot let this opportunity pass without saying, that I fully agree with all that has been said as to the assistance that the House and the public have derived from the admirable performance of your duty. If there was any difference of opinion as to what candidate should be elected at the time when you were first appointed to the Chair, there never since has been any but one unanimous feeling that in re-electing you they have best secured the performance of the duties of Speaker and the preservation of the privileges of this House. You have been pleased to say that, in the discharge of your duties, you have received the assistance of this House; if so, then am I sure that that assistance has been willingly and universally rendered, on account of that gentlemanly deportment which made every man feel that, in transgressing
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against the orders of this House, he not only violated a public duty, but would have something to reproach himself with as a private man, in resisting those orders, when enforced on his attention in such a conciliatory manner. Other men may be found with the same knowledge of the laws and usages of Parliament, but it will be difficult enough in practice to find the same urbanity and kindness of demeanour which have so attached us all to you. You have declined a comparison with your predecessors. On that subject, therefore, I will say nothing. But I will say of those who succeed you, that if they wish to join authority to conciliation and a knowledge of the laws of Parliament, which I believe are the best that could be formed for the government of a deliberative assembly—if they wish to learn the art that shall make the execution of their duties pleasant and easy, I hope they will look upon you; and that those who were with you when you presided in this House will try to make up the loss we are about to sustain, by endeavouring as much as possible to imitate your conduct.
Sir Charles Wetherell: I must be allowed to express my concurrence with what has already been said on the subject of this Motion. That you deserve the expressions of approbation you have received is manifest from this, that the sentiments expressed on both sides of the House are similar in terms, and in spirit are the same. The hon. Baronet opposite has felicitously observed on that gentlemanly deportment which has distinguished you in presiding over the first assembly of freemen in Europe—and I may add, the first assembly of Gentlemen in Europe. In that you have but fulfilled what we might expect from you. As the Speaker of this House is the first Commoner, so ought he to be the first Gentleman in the country. You have exhibited the real perfection of a Magistrate; for your decisions, even when against any individual, have been given in such a manner, that that individual himself has been satisfied with that decision. I have felt the greatest gratification in hearing the expression of the sentiments of others; but that gratification has not been unmixed with sensations of pain at your retirement.
Motion carried unanimously.
The Speaker: It is with the utmost gratitude and respect, that I thank the House, for the vote which they have just agreed

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to; and I can assure the House, with the utmost sincerity, that long as I have been in public life, and frequently as it has been my duty to address myself to this House, I never, on any occasion, felt so incompetent to give utterance to my feelings as at present. After the honour which the House have been pleased to confer on me, it would be hypocrisy in me to disclaim all merit whatever. My merit has been, an anxious and steady desire to persevere in the discharge of my duty; and from the House have emanated the power, the force, and strength, that have enabled me to carry that wish into effect. I have now to acknowledge that most distinguished honour which a public man can receive—the public approbation of my services given by those who have had the best opportunity of knowing how those services have been performed. I do acknowledge that honour with the most heartfelt gratitude.
Lord Althorpthen moved—"That the thanks of this House be given to Mr. Speaker for what he has now said to the House, and that the same be printed in the votes of this day, and entered on the Journals of this House."
Agreed to unanimously.
Lord Althorp: I now rise for a purpose in which I am sure every Gentleman who hears me will concur with me. We have expressed the sense we entertain of the manner in which you have performed your duty; but it becomes our duty to carry the expression of our opinion further—it becomes us to carry to our Sovereign our sense of the mode in which you have performed your duty, and humbly to crave him to enable us to show our approbation of your conduct, and to offer you some permanent expression of it. I move—"That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to confer some signal mark of his Royal Favour upon the right hon. Charles Manners Sutton for his eminent services in the six Parliaments, during which he has discharged the duties of Speaker of this House with a zeal and ability alike honourable to himself, and conducive to the progress of public business, to commence and take effect immediately upon his ceasing to hold the office of Speaker of this House; and to assure his Majesty, that this House will make good whatever expense his Majesty may think proper to be incurred on that account."
Motion unanimously agreed to.

CIVIL SERVICE OF THE STATE.
The House, on the Motion of Lord Althorp, went into Committee on the Civil List.
Lord Althorpsaid, before entering upon the subject of the charges for the Civil Government, I have to make an apology to the House for having so long postponed bringing this subject forward. But the state of public business has been such that I found it impossible to get an opportunity of doing so. I have also to apologize for having brought it forward at this late period of the Session, and I should not have done so had I not felt, that this House ought not to separate without settling this great and important question. Indeed, I may say that the House is bound to settle it, in consequence of the pledges given to his Majesty. I must claim the indulgence of the House, as, in consequence of the great number of topics which I shall have to advert to, I fear I shall have to trespass on its attention at some length. The circumstances which have led to the bringing this subject under the attention of Parliament are perfectly well known. From the present Civil List Act a large portion of those items which were formerly in the Civil List were excluded, with a view to bringing them under the cognizance of Parliament, and to relieve the Sovereign from appearing to receive from Parliament a larger amount than he really did. With those feelings this portion of the Civil List was referred to a Committee up-stairs, which made a Report to the House last year, and in conformity with the recommendations in that Report, I now rise to ask the House to make permanent provision for those charges for the civil Government, which were formerly in the Civil List. It is on the Report of the Committee that the plan which the Government now has to propose is founded; and the following are the items embraced in it. First, the salaries of the Judges of England and Ireland, including the salaries of the Lord Chancellors of both countries; secondly, the diplomatic expenditure; thirdly, the pensions and the Civil List; fourthly, the salary of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland; fifthly, the allowance of salaries in England, Ireland, and Scotland; sixthly, the salary of the Speaker of the House of Commons; and seventhly, the Lord Chancellor's salary,

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as Speaker of the House of Lords. To take the first charge, I shall commence with the salary of the Lord Chancellor of England. It is proposed to fix the general salary of the Lord Chancellor at 14,000 l., of which about 4,000 l. will be as Speaker of the other House. It was thought expedient with respect to the fees received by the Speaker of the House of Lords, and the salary of that officer, that the subject should not originate here, as it might be deemed an improper interference with the privileges of their Lordships. Nothing has hitherto been arranged in the House of Lords upon the subject; but I have no hesitation in saying, that it is intended to propose that the Speaker in the other House should receive 4,000 l. a-year. The Lord Chancellor is also to receive 10,000 l. a-year from the Suitors' Fund, and all the fees he now receives will be carried to the account of that fund; and the Lord Chancellor will be relieved of the charge of 5,000 l. a-year given now to the Vice Chancellor, and in lieu of this being received from the Suitors' Fund, it will be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. The proposed retiring pension for the Lord Chancellor is 5,000 l. a year, though my noble and learned friend has desired me to state, that in the event of his quitting office before this increase shall be sanctioned by Parliament, he will not consent to receiving it himself. It is now proposed, with respect to the Speaker of the House of Commons, that his salary should be charged in one sum on the Consolidated Fund, instead of on different funds, as heretofore. We also propose, that the whole of the salaries of the Judges should be charged on the Consolidated Fund. The House is aware that, on the 16th of November, 1828, it was understood that all Judges subsequently appointed should only receive 5,000 l. a-year, the salary previously being 5,500 l. a-year. Four Judges have been appointed on those terms, three additional Judges having been created in consequence of the abolition of the Welch Judges, all of whom understand that their salary is to be 5,000 l. With respect to the Cursitor Baron of the Exchequer, it was recommended by the Committee that that office should be abolished, and during the life of the present holder no alteration will be made as to the fund on which the salary is charged. The next point is the Judge of the Admiralty Court in Ireland.
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At the Union it was settled that that office should be preserved; the salary, however, which was then 500 l. a year, has since been raised to 1,000 l.; which, looking at the business to be done by that Court, appears to me to be much too high a rate of payment. Since, therefore, we are bound to preserve the office, I think that we are fully justified in reducing it to its former standard of 500 l. The Lord Lieutenant's salary, as the House is aware, was 30,000 l. a year Irish, or 27,692 l. English. When, however, the Duke of Northumberland accepted the office, he proposed, in consequence of the depressed state of the country, to strike off the odd 7,692 l., and reduce the income to 20,000 l., which was accordingly done, and the continuation of which arrangement I intend to propose. I now come to that point on which I know I have the misfortune to differ from several hon. Gentlemen who sit on this side of the House. I mean the question of pensions. I have heard that question argued in this House, and have read arguments on the subject in print directly adverse to my views; but I am bound to say, that I still remain of opinion, that if we take advantage of the technical fact that these pensions are granted during pleasure, we shall, as the Representatives of a great country, be taking an advantage most unworthy of us, because I believe that nothing can be more detrimental to the honour of England, than to act contrary to a pledge and promise in consequence of having a mere technical excuse. This appears to me so clearly to be a debt of honour, that whatever I may think of some of the appointments, I feel bound, as a gentleman, not to consent to the taking away of these pensions so long as I shall be a Minister of the Crown; therefore, however much I may regret such a charge in our present state of financial difficulty, I shall act up to the doctrine I have now laid down, however unpopular it may be. When the Civil List was referred to the Committee, the charge for pensions on it was, for England, 73,695 l., for Scotland, 30,467 l., and for Ireland, 51,155 l. But there is another class of pensions, some of which have a still stronger claim on the country. These are the pensions which have been granted on the four-and-a half per cent, duties, which duties belonged exclusively to the Crown, until they were given up to the public by his present Majesty on his accession to the throne. Some of these are

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pensions for life, and some during pleasure; and according to strict interpretation, the pensions for life were so charged, that it was not in the King's power to give them up; and, therefore, when these duties were transferred to the public, they were still made subject to these pensions. The pensions during pleasure, were of course, on the same footing as the similar pensions charged on the Civil List. Up to the 9th of George 4th.; the Monarch had an unbounded power over these four-and-a half per cents.; but, by an arrangement then made, it was settled that no more pensions should be charged on that fund until it was sufficient to cover the expenses of the Bishops and Clergy of the West Indies. Up to the present time it has not been sufficient for that; but the amount has been made up from other droits of the Crown, which, though at one time profitable, I am bound to state will produce but little. Under these circumstances, I do not see how I can hold these pensions to be different from those charged on the Civil List. The amount of these pensions is 22,295 l.; and of this sum, 11,468 l. are for life-pensions, one of which is a grant in perpetuity made by Charles 2nd to Lord Carew and his descendants for ever. According to an arrangement made, the Scotch pensions were to be reduced to 27,620 l., until which time the King was only to have power to grant to the amount of 800 l. a-year; and the Irish pensions to 39,900 l., until which time the King was only to have power to grant to the amount of 1,200 l. a-year. The whole amount of the pensions on the Civil List was 155,000 l.; in the present Civil List, the whole sum to be allowed is 75,000 l., which certainly must be admitted on all hands to be a great sacrifice on the part of the Crown. Adding the pensions on the Civil List to those on the four-and-a-half per cent duties together, the total amount was 177,612 l. and, therefore, by reducing the sum to 75,000 l., we shall be effecting a saving of 102,612 l. Of this, however, I have no right to claim the whole credit, for the right hon. Gentleman who preceded me agreed to reduce the amount to 145,750 l.; so that from this it appears, that the a-mount of my reduction is 70,750 l. The mode in which we decided which of the pensions should be borne by the Civil List, and which by the public, was by placing the whole of the names of the pensioners alphabetically, and by taking
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from the top as many as amounted to 75,000 l. for the Civil List, leaving the remainder for the Consolidated Fund. According to this arrangement, from the letter A, to about the middle of the H were found to be chargeable on the Civil List. The amount of the pensions excluded from the Civil List was 80,952 l.; but since that time there has fallen to the public the sum of 6,649 l. a-year, partly by resignations and partly by deaths, a fact which is already sufficient to show that the arguments of those who contended that there would be no economy in this plan, were not founded in truth. According to this statement, the Committee will perceive that there now remains chargeable on the Consolidated Fund the sum of 74,303 l., to which we have to add the sum of 10,826 l. chargeable on the four-and-a-half per cent, duties, making altogether 85,129 l. The next point to which I have to call the attention of the Committee is the Diplomatic Expenditure. Heretofore, the salaries of our diplomatic agents were subject to deductions for the land-tax and the eighteen-penny tax. These deductions were repaid to those who were in active service out of the civil contingencies; but the deductions from the pensions were not so paid. This mode of repayment seems to me to be exceedingly operose and useless, and I shall therefore propose to pay the salaries in full, without reduction, and the nett pensions after the usual deductions, by which means I think that we shall be avoiding much complication of account. The charge in the Civil List under this head has hitherto been 144,950 l. for active service, and 52,000 l. for pensions, subject to the deductions I have already explained, which together amount to 196,950 l.; but in addition to the 144,950 l. for active service, there have been the salaries for our agents at Chili, Peru, Buenos Ayres, and other places provided for in another way, making the whole charge for the active diplomatic service 167,450 l. On this sum we have been able to effect a saving of 27,450 l., by which the amount is reduced to 140,000 l. The amount of the pensions on the Diplomatic Service was recommended by the Finance Committee to be reduced to 40,000 l., with an arrangement, that till that reduction is effected not more than 2,000 l. a-year is to be granted in addition to the present amount. I am, however, here bound to state, that I am

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afraid that this arrangement cannot be strictly adhered to, as the Government has already found itself placed in difficulty by it. I need not tell the House that nothing is so important as that our diplomatic agents should be persons towards whom the Government shall be able to feel the most complete confidence. This being the case, I have to state, that at the present moment there are persons returned from abroad, their duties being concluded, and who, on every account, have a fair and a just claim on the consideration of the country. Under these circumstances, it will be necessary for me to propose that the pensions to be granted to these persons be added to the 40,000 l. already mentioned by me; after which we shall endeavour, as far as possible, to adhere to the recommendation of the Finance Committee. The present amount of the Pension List, without reductions, is 56,810 l.; but I ought to state, that some of the pensioners are very old lives, and that, consequently, there is every prospect of a very rapid saving accruing to the public. The next point I have to submit to the Committee, is the ancient salaries and allowances formerly paid from the Civil List of England. The mode in which this Bill is to be drawn up is to provide for these during the existence of the present interests, leaving the remainder of the question entirely open, without prejudicing it in any way. When the whole of these arrangements shall come into operation, there will altogether be a saving to the public of 252,000 l. The amount proposed to be saved by the right hon. Gentleman who preceded me was 162,000 l., although, in fact, the real saving, according to the right hon. Gentleman's plan, would only have been 123,000 l. I now beg to move, that it is the opinion of this Committee, that there be issued to the Speaker of the House of Commons, out of the Consolidated Fund, the sum of 6,000 l. a-year, in lieu of the fees and other allowances by which that sum has hitherto been made up.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that, in accordance with the recommendation of the Finance Committee, it was proper that the salary of the Speaker should be paid entirely out of the Consolidated Fund, instead of being partly defrayed out of the Consolidated Fund, and partly from fees. He, therefore, approved of that proposition. He was also favourable to the arrangement
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with respect to the Judges. Those created previous to 1828 were to receive 5,500 l. a-year, and those raised to the Bench since that period were to have 5,000 l. a-year. The noble Lord had not, however, stated what was intended to be done with reference to the Scotch Judges. Their case had been brought before different Governments, and it was allowed on all hands to be one of great hardship. He did think, that when the noble Lord brought forward a proposition for a certain reduction of the salary of the English Judges, he might with great propriety have noticed the situation of the Scotch Judges, who were insufficiently paid, and whose duties had been lately increased. The next point was an arrangement of the Lord Chancellor's salary; and he understood from the noble Lord, that no part of that salary was to be charged on the Consolidated Fund, but that the retiring salary was to be defrayed out of that fund. Now, he could see no reason why, in that respect, the Lord Chancellor of England should be placed in a different situation from the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, or the other Judges of the realm. To suffer that salary to be paid out of the Suitors'. Fund was contrary to the recommendation of the Finance Committee. He understood also, that the Chancellor's retiring pension was hereafter to be 5,000 l. instead of 4,000 l. a year. He certainly was anxious that officers holding high judicial situations should receive an ample retiring allowance; but he did not like the principle of increasing that allowance on the ground of the insufficiency of the salary which they received while in office. By taking that course, a temptation was afforded for quitting office on the retiring allowance, sooner than an individual would perhaps otherwise do. That would be attended with considerable inconvenience, inducing changes, and it was of importance that there should be as few changes in the office of Lord Chancellor as possible. The Chancellor must of course retire upon a change of Administration; but, except in that instance, he thought it was for the public benefit that the Chancellor should not be often changed, but that an opportunity should be given him to make himself perfect master of all the duties connected with his office. He should prefer giving an additional salary to the Chancellor rather than patronage,

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or a small additional increase of the retiring pension, because out of a handsome additional increase of salary a Chancellor could better make some sort of provision for those who came after him. In his opinion, a retiring pension of 4,000 l. a-year was an adequate remuneration, and had never been complained of as too little by those who had held the Great Seal. As to the proposition respecting the salary of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, it met with his entire concurrence. No man who knew the nature of the situation could doubt that the salary was not too much. He found that the diplomatic expenditure was to be reduced to 140,000 l. a-year, and the pensions connected with that branch to 50,000 l. a-year. Now he could not see how it was possible to keep those pensions within the limit of 46,000 l. or 50,000 l. a-year. The amount must be determined by circumstances. He entirely agreed with the noble Lord that it was not economy, but a want of economy, not to reward high diplomatic characters liberally. Therefore he would not confine the expenditure for pensions to 50,000 l., or to any other specific sum. He was of opinion, however, that individuals might be found in the receipt of pensions who were perfectly competent to undertake diplomatic missions. If they were employed, the pension list would be relieved to that extent. Whatever might be the popular feeling against pensions, he thought that the noble Lord in continuing them, had acted not only wisely, but justly. With respect to the general principles which the noble Lord had laid down, he approved of them, and no man would be found a warmer supporter of those principles than himself.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussoncould not admit that the retiring pension of the Lord Chancellor was too high, and approved of making the retiring pensions for the Judges different from the retiring pension of the Lord Chancellor. The Judges, when appointed, were not removed, whereas the Lord Chancellor was liable to be removed at every change of Administration. He would take that opportunity of reminding the noble Lord that the salary of the Scotch Judges ought to be raised. It was understood that this would be done when the salaries of the English Judges were raised in 1825. They were entitled, at least, to one half as much as the English Judges. When the salary of
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the English Judges was 4,000 l. a-year that of the Scotch was 2,000 l. Now that the salary of an English Judge was 5,500 l., that of a Scotch Judge should be, at least, half as much. It should be recollected, that their business had much increased, for the number of Judges was reduced from fifteen to thirteen. The Scotch Judges did not intrude their case upon the House, and, for that reason, they had a still stronger claim. He knew many of them, and they were as eminent in their profession as any men in Europe. They were selected by the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) in a manner highly honourable to him, not from political considerations, but in consequence of their fitness for the office. The present Government pursued the same course. He hoped, late as it was, that even the present Session would not pass away without seeing justice done to those learned and eminent men.
Sir Edward Sugdenfully concurred with the hon. Gentleman who spoke last. The Scotch Judges ought to be placed, in point of salary, in a situation that would enable them to support their rank and make provision for their families, taking care, at the same time, never to raise the salary beyond what it ought fairly to be, considering the nature and importance of the duty. The great object was, to make the salary of Judges such as would induce them not to look beyond their present station. They should be selected, not from political considerations, but in consequence of their judicial talent and experience. During the Duke of Wellington's Administration, though, of course, he had nothing to do with the appointments, he had opportunities of knowing that no inquiry was ever made into the political connections of Judges, and that those persons were selected to fill the office who it was supposed were most likely to adorn it. The same rule should be observed with respect to the Lord Chancellor; but, as matters now stood, it was impossible, because his office was a political, as well as judicial, one. He was not favourable to a large retiring allowance, and if the patronage of the Chancellor was not to be taken away, he should not be disposed to increase the allowance. Under the circumstances, however, it appeared to him that 5,000 l. a-year was a proper remuneration. As to the salary of 14,000 l. a-year, it was, certainly, a large sum, perhaps a little too much, but not a great deal too much, con-

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sidering the heavy and important duties of the office. Before they came to any decision as to the salary, it would be desirable to know what had been the average income of the office for fourteen or fifteen years back, and what the present emoluments of it. They would then be better able to judge of what amount the salary ought to be. As to the fund whence the salary was to be drawn, there would be time enough for considering that when the Bill was brought in. He should object to its being drawn out of the Suitors' Fund, while there was a possibility that a call might be made upon it for distribution among the suitors. It should be first made apparent that there was no person living who had claims on the fund before it was disposed of in salaries. Any part of it to which there were no claimants, he could have no objection to see disposed of in the payment of the Lord Chancellor's salary, or the salaries of other Judges. Nothing could be more injurious to the administration of justice than to give the least ground for supposing that any, the smallest portion, of the Lord Chancellor's salary was drawn from a fund to which individuals had any claim. There was one purpose to which he thought a portion of the fund might very properly be applied. There were in Chancery many small sums belonging to persons who were entitled to receive them, but were prevented from making the application in consequence of the expense they must incur, more perhaps than equivalent to the amount. Though small these sums, they might be of great importance to those who were entitled to them, and it would be very desirable if by some means they might be enabled to draw them out without this expense. He begged to say that, in any observations which fell from him upon this occasion, he did not allude to the present or to any other Chancellor. He spoke in reference only to the office.
Mr. Sinclairthought, as 4,000 l. a-year was considered sufficient for the retiring pension of the Lord Chancellor when the currency was depreciated, that sum might well now be sufficient. He did not, however, rise so much to object to the Lord Chancellor's salary as to say that he cordially joined in the opinion of his hon. and learned friend, regarding the Scotch Judges, and he begged leave to recommend their case to the consideration of the House.
Mr. Spencesaid, that as this was the last
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opportunity he might ever have of addressing a House of Commons, he wished to say a few words as to the delay which had taken place in introducing the measures for remedying the abuses of the Court of Chancery. The Lord Chancellor had called in several gentlemen to his aid, who had discussed in his presence the proposals for remedying the evils of the Court of Chancery.
Sir Edward Sugden: Name, name.
Mr. Spencecontinued He was himself one of the persons called upon by the Lord Chancellor, and he might also mention Mr. Duckworth, than whom there was no person, he believed, more competent to give advice. The result of the deliberations of those Gentlemen who had been called upon to assist the Lord Chancellor was, that it had been determined to introduce a much more extensive plan of Chancery Reform than that which had been proposed by his hon. and learned friend (Sir Edward Sugden). He (Mr. Spence) had previously proposed a measure for remedying some part of the abuses of the Court of Chancery, but he found some difficulty in bringing it forward; and it had, therefore, been suggested that he should bring forward in that House the general measure sanctioned by the Lord Chancellor. That general measure, he was enabled to state, had been prepared, and would very shortly be laid on the Table of one or other of the Houses of Parliament. It would have been introduced before now in the House of Lords, but that it had been prevented by the discussions on the Reform Bill. It had been stated in the newspapers, that he (Mr. Spence) was the person to whom it was owing that the Bill had not been brought forward. He, certainly, was the cause of its not having been brought in from the 10th to the 26th of July. The Lord Chancellor had desired him (Mr. Spence) to add a clause, creating an appellate jurisdiction, and he had not been able to prepare that clause. His hon. and learned friend seemed to think it strange that he should not have been able to prepare that clause in so long an interval. The fact, however, was, that it was thought necessary the Lord Chief Baron should sit as one of the Judges in the Court of Appeal; and to carry that arrangement into effect, it became necessary to re-model the whole of the offices connected with the Court of Exchequer—a circumstance which he thought satisfactorily accounted

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for the difficulty to which he had adverted. From the moment he had had the honour of a seat in that House, he had directed his attention to the evils connected with the Court of Chancery; and he need hardly assure the Committee, that he was not disposed to delay a moment longer than was necessary, the introduction of a Bill to alter and regulate all the offices connected with the Court of Chancery. Though, most probably, he should not have any personal share in carrying through the Bill in the next Parliament, yet he was satisfied that the Lord Chancellor's Bill was such a one as a Reformed Parliament might justly and safely carry into effect; and he confidently hoped that his opinion, as to its merits, would be confirmed by that of the House.
Lord Althorpthought the Committee had got into a subject very wide of the Resolution. The question of the Scotch Judges had nothing to do with it, and before their salaries could be augmented, an inquiry must be made. [Some hon. Member said, one had already been made.] Certainly, he believed it had, and he was led to believe, that in Scotland the general feeling was, that the Judges were not underpaid. In deciding upon the salary of the Lord Chancellor he had followed the recommendation of the Salaries' Committee. He also thought the retiring salary of 5,000 l. per annum was not too much, under all circumstances. It might be as well to mention that the Bill to be brought in in pursuance of the Resolutions of the Committee, was a bill for regulating the salary of the Chancellor, and not for Reform in the Court of Chancery: that was a subject which required a larger and more comprehensive measure.
Mr. Harveyregretted that the Bill would not extend to a Reform of some of the many abuses existing in the Court of Chancery, as well as to settling the Chancellor's salary. There would not have been much difficulty in making it extend to some of those abuses. It seemed as though disappointment and the Court of Chancery were synonymous terms. They had heard from the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Spence) that he would not condescend again to return to the House, and that he thought it too late in the Session to introduce any of those measures which the Lord Chancellor had commissioned him to draw up for the Reform of the Court. Thus it was with
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that Court. At one time it was too late, at another too early in a Session, to introduce measures for its Reform. He supposed, after all, it was to be left to some tyro of Reform to pick up the fragments of the hon. and learned Gentleman's more magnificent conceptions, and throw them into the shape of a Bill, with as many clauses and as interminable as a Bill in Chancery. He had sat five Parliaments in that House, and upon no subject had he heard so much from the Whigs as the necessity of a Reform in this Court; nor was there one upon which the noble and learned Lord, now at the head of that Court was so strongly pledged as this. His predecessor had been characterised as a man of whose mind tardiness was the emblem. But the present noble and learned Lord had been two years in his place, without there being the slightest prospect of any of those amendments which he had so frequently declared were not only indispensable, but were also easy of execution. He (Mr. Harvey) was convinced that it required little more than honesty of purpose, and a competent understanding of the business, to effect all the necessary changes. He did not impute the contrary of these qualities to the Lord Chancellor; but if they were to have any Reform of that Court, they must not listen to the declarations of the hon. and learned Members of that House, who could be brought to see nothing but difficulties and delicacies in the way. He had daily experience on the subject; and he must say, that at no time was the Court of Chancery in a worse state than at the present moment. From the commencement of a suit—he could not say, its end, because an end was seldom attained—but from the commencement, through its progress, there was not such a libel on justice as the manner in which a Chancery suit was conducted. They were told of the difficulties in the way of amendment—it was said, how could it be cured? A firm mind and a honest intention was, in his opinion, all that was wanting to effect that great object. Let half-a-dozen men who had retired from practice be appointed as Commissioners, with something like 1,200 l. a-year salary, and in about twelve months they would convert the Court of Chancery into what it professed to be, but what it was not, namely, a Court of Equity. His noble friend had defended the amount of salary given to the Lord Chancellor by

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comparing it with the Chief Justice's salary of 10,000 l. If they instituted a comparison between the two salaries only, he did not think the amount given to the Lord Chancellor too much, but he did not think the Chief Justice ought to have so much as 10,000 l. a-year. He was one of those who thought that no man, in any situation whatever, ought to have so large a salary as 10,000 l. a-year. It was also to be remembered that the noble Lord, who now occupied the office of Lord Chancellor, had always contended, and with irresistable force of argument, in favour of the separation of the offices of Lord Chancellor and Speaker of the House of Lords. If he was sincere, which he could not doubt, then before long the judicial office of Chancellor would be separated from the political one; and as it would then, he presumed, become permanent, it ought not to be better paid than the office of Lord Chief Justice. His regret was, that the people's hopes should be again disappointed for another Session.
Resolution agreed to.
A Resolution was proposed to grant the sum of 20,000 l. per annum for the salary of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
Mr. Sinclairobjected. He thought the office ought to be altogether abolished. It tended only to foment dissensions, and keep up the political spirit of party. It would be much better that its duties should be delegated to the Secretary of State for the Home Department. He begged leave to move that it is expedient to abolish the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.
The Chairmaninformed the hon. Member, that he could not make such a motion in that Committee.
Lord Althorpagreed with his hon. friend, that a time might arrive when it would be advisable to abolish that office, and put the government of Ireland on the same footing as that of Scotland. But under present circumstances, and considering the existing state of Ireland, he thought such a step could not be taken with prudence. The possibility of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland being influenced by local politics was the main reason why he agreed with his hon. friend.
Mr. Leadersaid, that he believed that his Majesty's present Administration found it hard enough to govern Ireland with a Lord Lieutenant, and he saw little prospect of their governing at all without one. A miserable economy was the only principle which appeared to characterise every proposal
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regarding Ireland. Did the House wish to know the cause of the afflicted state of Ireland? If it did, he could tell it that the war of poverty against property, arising from want of employment, was at the bottom of all the disturbances. There was one ruling sentiment, the cause of which was long continued bad government. What did the country require? That the landed proprietors should return, and discharge the duty of proprietors. What was likely to induce some proprietors to return and others to remain? Undoubtedly the residence of a Lord Lieutenant contributed to that end. Was not absenteeism the curse of the country? When Gentlemen spoke of governing Ireland like Scotland, they forgot the difference of the population, and the calamities which were induced by a train of evils which proceeded from bad government and dissension, perpetuated for the worst and basest of purposes. It was idle to speak of savings—the thing to speak of was the making the government popular with the people. If hon. Gentlemen chose to make proposals for removing the Lord Lieutenant, they might prepare speeches for opposing the Repeal of the Union, for undoubtedly there would be nothing better to make every Irishman a repealer than the removal of the Lord Lieutenant.
Mr. Courtenaymeant to confine his observations to the question before the Committee. He had expected that the noble Lord would have taken this opportunity of explaining the principles on which he had divided the expenses of the Civil Government, some being charged on the Consolidated Fund, whilst others depended upon the annual votes of Parliament. From what he had been able to see, he could not find out upon what principle the noble Lord had proceeded. What reason was there, for instance, for the salary of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland being chargeable upon the Consolidated Fund, whilst that of the Secretary of State for the Home Department was to be annually voted by the House? There were many other points connected with this Bill to which he should have wished to advert; but, like his right hon. friend near him, he was not aware of the Committee coming on, and was not prepared.
The resolution agreed to; as were the following:—1. "To enable his Majesty to charge the Consolidated Fund with a sum

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not exceeding 235,510 l to defray the salaries of his diplomatic servants at present employed at foreign courts, and of such as may be hereafter employed there.—2. To enable his Majesty to charge the Consolidated Fund with the sum of 85,222 l. to pay those Pensions which, previous to his Majesty's accession, were chargeable on the Civil Lists of England and Ireland, on the hereditary revenues of Scotland, and on the four-and-a-half per cent duties, and for which no provision has been made in the Civil List granted to his Majesty.—3. To enable his Majesty to charge the Consolidated Fund with the sum of 20,309 l. to pay those salaries and allowances which, previous to his accession, had been chargeable on the Civil List of England and Ireland, and the hereditary revenues of Scotland.—4. To enable his Majesty to grant to any person filling the office of Lord High Chancellor of England, a contingent annuity of 5,000 l. a-year, to take effect on his resignation of, or removal from such office—5. A resolution to enable his Majesty to pay out of the Consolidated Fund the several salaries of the Judges of the Courts of Law in Westminster Hall, and of the Courts of Law in Dublin."
The House resumed.

BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS.
Lord John Russellmoved the Order, of the Day for going into Committee on this Bill. Before the House went into Committee, he wished to say a few words. He expected the Reform Bill would do much to abolish the practice of bribery, by doing away with the wholesale bribery of rotten boroughs. The absence of constant and scrutinizing inquiries into cases of bribery well known to have occurred was admitted on all sides to be the chief incitement to the continuance of the system. He had, therefore, particularly directed his attention to that point, and by affording every opportunity for investigation, and imposing a species of punishment on the party whom a Committee should declare guilty of having obtained his return by improper means, he hoped in a short time to find bribery at an election a rare occurrence. It was inconsistent to punish with severity the poor man, who took a bribe of 10 l. or 20 l., and to let the rich man, who bought or sold an entire borough, escape without any penalty. But he expected more from the strict investigation of these cases, than from the penalties. He proposed, by this
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Bill, to extend the time for presenting Petitions against a return on this account, from fourteen days to two years. He also wished to establish a better mode of carrying on the investigation. It would be lawful for any person to make a complaint; and, if bribery and corruption were proved to exist, the Committee should be empowered to grant the complainants their costs. It might be said, that this would increase the number of complaints; but he thought no man would incur the risk of 3,000 l. or 4,000 l. costs, without some foundation. He must repeat, that he looked to the moral feeling which the Reform Bill was calculated to excite, as the best preventive of bribery, and as most likely to elevate the character of the constituency, and shed additional lustre upon that House. The noble Lord concluded by moving, that the Speaker leave the Chair.
Mr. Rigby Wasonintimated his intention of moving a clause in Committee, to apply the fresh powers to be conferred by the Bill to the bribery which had occurred at Liverpool, and to which he had repeatedly called the attention of the House; but which calls were treated with so much indifference, as would almost daunt any Member from taking up such a subject. He thought that the provision in Lord Wynford's bill, by which the party found guilty of bribery and corruption was condemned to pay the expenses, was better than the provision in the Bill now before the House. He should move the insertion of a clause of that kind in this Bill.
Sir Richard Vyvyanobjected to the proposed measure. As to the idea of rendering Members liable for two years to an investigation as to their return, particularly when a premium was held out to the individual who should succeed in turning him out, that would be both absurd and cruel. The power of selling seats, it was said, was abolished, and yet Ministers found it necessary to propose a bill for the punishment of that which they declared at an end. He thought the alterations which the noble Lord contemplated very unlikely to add to the independence of Members.
Lord Althorpsaid, that, in his opinion, the extension of the time of petitioning would have a tendency to check the existence of corruption; because a candidate would be afraid to bribe, if he knew that for two years afterwards his seat was liable to be contested on that account.
Mr. Wilkssaid, that he should propose a clause by which every Member, on taking his seat, should swear that he had not, either directly or indirectly, been guilty of bribery or corruption.
Sir Charles Wetherellthought this late period of the Session was a very unfit time to bring forward propositions for new Bribery Laws. He objected to the monstrous extension of time during which a petition might be presented. The effect of this Bill would he, that if a Member voted as his constituents thought fit for one year, but towards the end of the second year offended them, he might be harassed with a petition against his return. The independence of every Member would thus be sacrificed, and he would be reduced to an absolute state of vassalage. The words of the Bill were so vague, that they would embrace every possible or fanciful act of bribery. No man could ever know whether he was offending the laws or not. In the Usury Laws, a man was relieved from their operation after the lapse of one year, and so it was with respect to many most important Fiscal Laws. Why should not this Bribery Law have the same limitation of time? The Bill might be made an instrument of vindictive oppression, and he should, therefore, refuse his consent to the adoption of it.
Lord John Russellwas not prejudiced in favour of the exact period of two years. What he wanted was, that after the actual payment of the money, given as a bribe, sufficient time should be afforded to persons to make their complaints of bribery. With respect to the proposition to make Members take oaths that they had not had recourse to bribery, he was not favourable to it. He thought they derived little advantage from oaths, whether taken by the elector or the Member. The qualification oath, for instance, afforded but little security in the matter to which it applied.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that, in his opinion, the extension of time might be made use of for the worst political purposes, and he much doubted whether the Bill would not have a greater effect in encouraging conspiracies than in discouraging bribery.
Sir Henry Hardingeconsidered that the Bill was objectionable, as holding out a lure to suborners of evidence. He should prefer coming to the Table and taking an oath that he had not been guilty of bribery, to being subjected to the evils which this Bill would hang over the head of every
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Member. The matter was worse on this account, for the accusing party need not be a voter—he might be an enemy of the sitting Member. Again, if the sitting Member successfully defended his seat, he was not to have the costs of his defence unless the complaint was pronounced frivolous and vexatious, while the petitioner, if he unseated the Member, was to have his costs. This was not putting them on equal terms. He should oppose the Bill.
Colonel Sibthorpcomplained that the Bill was so loose and indefinite, that acts of hospitality and charity might be interpreted into acts of bribery.
Mr. Harveyobserved, that the present Bill imposed an oath on the electors, and why should not the Representative be subjected to the same restraint? Why should not the Member of Parliament, before he took his seat, be called upon to swear, that he has not been, and that he will not, either directly or indirectly, by himself or his agents, be guilty of bribery? As the House well knew, there must be two parties to the crime of bribery, and surely the restraint and the purification from the crime should not be confined to one of the parties. In fact, the necessity of taking such an oath at the Table of that House must be a great relief to the Members themselves. For example, when a candidate went down to a borough for which he had been returned before, and to the electors of which he had been accustomed to make many donations, and when, in consequence of that practice, he came to be assailed by them with the usual importunities, how great would the relief be to him to be able to say, that, however willing to renew his former liberality, the oath which he should have to take at the Table of the House completely precluded a continuance of that ancient practice? He should conclude by moving. That it be an instruction to the Committee to insert the following Clause:—"And be it further enacted, that from and after the passing of this Act, every Member who shall be returned to serve in Parliament, shall, on coming to the Table of this House, take an oath according to the following form:—I, A. B., do solemnly swear, that I have neither given, nor promised to give, nor intend to give, or promise hereafter, by myself, agents, or friends, any money, security, order, or other thing of value, or any pecuniary fee or reward of any kind, in consideration of any vote or votes, or

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by which my return to this House shall have been promoted or secured."
The Speakersuggested, that the proposition of the hon. Member need not be in the form of an instruction, it might be moved in the Committee.
Mr. Harveyobserved, that if the House were prepared to adopt the oath, it would supersede several of the clauses in the Bill.
The Speakerreplied, that the uses of the Committee would be at an end, if such matters as came within their jurisdiction were always to be moved as instructions.
Mr. William Broughamobjected to the Bill before the House upon different substantial and weighty grounds—the first of which was, that its provisions were so framed that a Member would be liable to a prosecution for bribery in that House for the whole space of two entire years, when the facts, perhaps, were forgotten by the Member, though treasured up by the accuser. The accusation by this Bill need not be made upon any one defined and specific act of alleged bribery. Why should they attempt what they had found already so difficult, or why should they not content themselves with providing against, and suppressing, acts of direct and gross bribery? The worst feature in the Bill was, that it was 'possible for an hon. Member to give a ruined or unfortunate man 5s. as an act of charity, and because this man had voted some time within two years for him, as a candidate at the election for the borough or county, he would, to all intents and purposes, under this Bill, be deprived of his seat, on proof of this fact. Again, it was part of the provisions of this Bill, that the complaint and investigation might be instituted on the motion of any agent during two years. For his part he would rather be compelled by the Act to take the oath at the Table himself, or vote at once for Annual Parliaments, than have a prosecution thus hanging over his head in suspense for two long years. But as the Bill required a Member not only to vouch for himself, but also to vouch that no agent of his, or for him, had given any valuable thing, pecuniary or otherwise, he would ask what conscientious man would dare so to vouch? He would go so far as any other man to check the practice of bribery at elections, but he had always seen that an attempt to secure this restraint over men's
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actions and consciences by Act of Parliament was a matter surrounded by very considerable, if not insurmountable difficulties. As to the infliction of the payment of the costs on this party or the other, the accuser or accused, he should recommend that the Bill should not be permitted to outstep the rule of the common law as to costs: the party succeeding would, in that case, be free from the costs, which would fall on his opponent.
Mr. Hudson Gurneyfeared this Bill would not have the effect proposed. If the situation of a Member of Parliament were to continue to be regarded, as it ever had been, as one of high station, he believed that under any Bill the common feelings of the great mass of mankind would be brought into play. Having had much experience at elections, he was disposed to think it would be difficult to prevent bribery. He did not approve of calling upon Members to take oaths. He had witnessed on one occasion a most painful scene. Four hundred voters came up to poll, and he believed that at least one-half of that number were perjured,
Mr. Cresset Pelhamsaid, he never had heard or expected to have heard so much said as he had heard that night in favour of bribery.
Mr. Warburtonwould have been extremely glad to support the Bill, if it would effect the object proposed; but he feared that could never be done, except by the introduction of the ballot at elections. The Bill was particularly defective in this, that it only went to purify elections from bribery, but it had no provision directed against obtaining votes through intimidation or persecution of those who were in any way dependent on the will or power of the Member. Now, in his mind, the latter was the more crying enormity, and the worst description of tyrannical influence. He apprehended that it was impossible to render the check to bribery efficient by this Bill.
Mr. Ruthvenwas also of opinion the Bill would be both unpalatable to Members, and inconvenient in its operation.
The House in Committee on the Bill.
The first and second clauses agreed to.
On the third clause being read.
Colonel Sibthorpobjected to going further with the discussion in the present state of the House. He moved that the Chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Lord John Russellsaid, that if the hon. and gallant Member was opposed to passing a bill against bribery, and determined to use the means which the forms of the House allowed him, to impede its progress, the measure certainly could not pass in the present Session. If the hon. and gallant Member was not opposed to the principle of the Bill, it was better to proceed with a consideration of the clauses in Committee.
Sir Henry Hardingethought that the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) had stated the question very unfairly. He wished to throw the rejection of the Bill on his (Sir Henry Hardinge's) side of the House, well knowing in his own mind that a measure so important could not be fairly or fully discussed at so advanced a period of the Session. He was as anxious as any man in the world to prevent bribery and corruption, but, he was convinced, the present Bill would not have the effect. Every lawyer who had spoken on the subject, had declared himself against the Bill, which was formed in too loose and careless a manner, to make it possible it could effect its proposed object. Even the Attorney-General had not ventured to defend the Bill.
Mr. Robert Palmerwas anxious to see a measure introduced which would effectually prevent bribery and corruption; but unless this Bill was fully discussed, he should very much doubt whether it would effect that object.
Lord John Russellcontended there was nothing in the Bill which would prevent it from being fully discussed and passed during the present Session.
Lord Althorpsaid, it was quite obvious that if the hon. member for Lincoln (Colonel Sibthorp) persisted in his Motion, the Bill could not be proceeded with.
Sir Richard Vyvyanthought it inexpedient to press so important a Bill at a period when so many Members of both Houses had left town.
Colonel Sibthorpwas as anxious as any man in the House to prevent bribery, and to preserve the purity of election; but he thought this measure could have no such effect. However, if his Majesty's Ministers were desirous to cut their own throats, he would not prevent them; and, with the permission of the Committee, he would withdraw his Motion.
Mr. Wasonmoved, that the clauses from three to ten should be postponed,
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in order to come at once to the material parts of the Bill.
Lord John Russellsaid, his great objects were the extension of the time for petitioning against the candidate accused, and the affording facilities for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the facts respecting the alleged bribery in the place of election. He believed, however, that he might attain his objects by means of Resolutions; and if there were a decided opposition he should of course feel himself compelled to give up the measure. He should prefer nevertheless, if possible, to effect his purpose by means of a bill.
A desultory conversation ensued as to the propriety of proceeding with the Bill now; at length
Lord John Russellsaid, that from the opposition made to the various clauses of the Bill, he say that it would be impossible to carry it through this Session, and he should, therefore, move that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again. He thought he could effect one of the main objects of the Bill—namely, the extension of the time for petitioning against a return, by a Resolution of the House. With regard to the other important parts of the Bill, he would consider the point, and take an early opportunity of stating whether he should press the remainder of the Bill or not.
House resumed.

FEES IN CHANCERY.
Mr. Cresset Pelham, in conformity to the notice he had given, rose to bring forward his proposition for the appropriation to public purposes of the Fees and Emoluments hitherto enjoyed by the Clerk of the Patents, and Registrar of Affidavits in the Court of Chancery. The hon. Member moved:—"That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, praying that he will be pleased to order a Return to be laid before that House of all the Emoluments, Fees, and other Monies, now paid to the Clerk of the Patents, and to the Registrar of Affidavits in the Court of Chancery, in order that the same may hereafter be appropriated to the public service."
Lord Althorpsaid, that the Government had it in contemplation to effect some great alteration with respect to the offices to which the hon. Member referred. It must be obvious to all, that it would be a most ungracious, and, in-

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deed, a most unnecessary interference with those offices, or rather, with the holder of them, if the present Motion were assented to; the more so because the emoluments of the offices were far from being likely to prove lucrative. The long vacation was about to commence; the offices during that period were not open; and, consequently, no fees were taken; and as the duration of the vacation was likely to be as long as that of the offices, he really did not think it necessary to adopt any such step as that suggested by the hon. Member. Under these circumstances, perhaps, the hon. Member would see the Heedlessness of persevering in his Motion.
Mr. Cresset Pelhamobserved, that the noble Lord ever met the hon. Members of that House with the greatest courtesy and urbanity when he was opposed to them; and in compliance with the suggestion which had been thrown out, as well as on account of the explanation which had been given to the House, he would willingly withdraw his Motion.
Motion withdrawn.