Commons Sitting of 29 February 1832

MINUTES.
Bill brought in. By Mr. SPRING RICE, to provide for the Sale, Manufacture, and Consumption of Tobacco grown in Ireland.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. JOHN WOOD, of the latest Valuation of County Rates preceding the Act 55 Geo. 3rd, and all Valuations that have taken place since by virtue of the said Act; of the Amount of Duty paid on Stone Bottles from 5th of January, 1815, to 5th January, 1832, distinguishing the Amount paid in each year:—On the Motion of Sir HENRY PARNELL, of the Increased Charge of Full Pay occasioned by granting additional Pay for length of Service to Officers of the Army, by the operation of the Warrants of 1830; of the Expenses of the Officers of the Commander-in-Chief, Adjutant General, and Quartermaster General, showing the particulars of the same in detail, for the year 1831, and the Charges for the Officers of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals:—On the Motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, of the Receipts and Expenses of the Office of Paymaster General for the year 1831:—On the Motion of the Marquis of CHANDOS, of the manner in which 32,000 l. charged in the Civil Contingencies, for the Payments of Rewards on account of the discovery of Offenders in the disturbed districts in November 1830, was expended.
Petitions presented. In favour of the Bill for Limiting the Hours of Labour in Factories. By Lord MORPETH, from the Inhabitants of Holmfirth, and the Corporation of Cutlers, Hallamshire:—By Lord CAVENDISH, from the Inhabitants of Shaftesbury, and Chesterfield; and by Mr.

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WEYLAND, from the Inhabitants of Charlbury. Against the Bill. By Lord MORPETH, from the Owners and Occupiers of Water and Steam Mills at Keighly, Bingley, and parts adjacent; and Mr. JOHN WOOD, from the Market Cotton Spinners of Preston. Against the General Registry Bill. By Lord MORPETH, from Freeholders and Leaseholders of Knaresborough and its vicinity, Hentley, West Whitton, Middleham, and Caverham:—By Mr. TYNTE, from the Landowners of the Hundred of Andersfield, Somerset:—By Sir GEORGE MURRAY, and Lord CAVENDISH, from the Corporation of Hull, of Freeholders of Worksworth, and Ashbournham in favour of the Bill:— By Mr. BRISCOE, from Kingston upon Thames:—By Lord MORPETH, from Huddersfield, praying that the limits of the Borough should be extended to the whole Parish, and that the Borough should send two Representatives to Parliament; and from the Guild of Tanners of Galway, for Provision in the Irish Reform Bill for the peculiar Franchise of that place:—By Mr. JOHN WOOD, from William Redgard, of Liverpool, complaining of the Law by which Executors are allowed to pay their own Claims in preference to those of other Creditors; and from the Teachers of the New Meeting; Sunday Schools at Birmingham, for the Repeal of the Newspaper Stamp and Paper Duties:—By Sir GEORGE MVRRAY, from the Maltsters of Perth, and Distillers in the Highlands of Perthshire, Against the Repeal of so much of the existing Law as allows a drawback of the Duty on Malt distilled into Spirits:—By Sir ARTHUR CHICHESTER, from the Proprietors of Estates and other Persons at Belfast, interested in the Colonies, for a Reduction of the Duties on West-India Produce:—By Mr. STRICKLAND, from Inhabitants of Skipsea, praying for some Legislative measure calculated to ameliorate the condition of the Agricultural Poor:—By Mr. HODGES, from the Inhabitants of Hythe, Against annexing Sandgate and Folkestone to that Town, for the purpose of Returning a Member; and from Folkestone, in favour of the Division of Counties.
The Speaker,at the sitting of the House, called the attention of the Members to the subject of the order in which petitions were to be presented. He suggested, that, in order to prevent confusion, Members, who had petitions to present, should attend at the House each morning at ten o'clock, and put down their names—that the names should afterwards be put into an urn, and drawn out by lot, and that, as they were drawn they should be entitled to precedence.
The House adopted the Speaker's suggestion, which was accordingly made one of the standing rules of the House.

COUNT CZAPSKI.
Mr. Henry Grattanbegged to ask the right hon. Secretary for Ireland a question on a subject which had excited considerable interest in Dublin, on account of the circumstances attending it. It appeared that Count Czapski had made his escape from Warsaw, with great difficulty, and was so fortunate as to get to Belfast; on his landing there, he was told, it was necessary to give information of his arrival to the office of the Secretary, under the Act regarding Aliens. On his arrival at Dublin, he had made several inquiries at the Custom House and the Castle, and
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was told at the latter place, as he only intended to stay a few days, he need not apply again. Subsequently, however, circumstances induced him to prolong his residence in that city, when an intimation was given him to attend the Head Police, and, on appearing there, he was fined the full penalty, notwithstanding he had, in the first instance, conformed to the letter of the law, and was only induced to violate it by inadvertence. The question, therefore, he wished an answer to, was, whether the payment of the fine, which had been inflicted on this Polish nobleman, for his unwilling violation of the Alien Law, was to be enforced?
Mr. Stanleyanswered, that the case of Count Czapski was briefly this:—After he had landed in Ireland, he came to Dublin, and when he had been there a short time, he was informed, that, in conformity with the Alien Law, he must state to the Government whether he intended to fix his residence there. In compliance with the rule on this subject, he went to the proper office, and there stated, that it was not his intention permanently to remain in Dublin, where he intended only to stay a day or two. He, however, staid between a fortnight and three weeks, and then manifested no intention of leaving the country, but gave no notice whatever of the change of his determination. Steps were, therefore, taken to show, that the Government were not inattentive to this breach of the law, and, in consequence of them, a Magistrate inflicted a fine of 50 l. Some inquiry was, however, set on foot, and it having been since understood that he had acted upon erroneous representations of the law, the matter had been taken into consideration by the Irish Government; and he (Mr. Stanley) was happy to say, that he had that morning received a letter from his noble friend, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, stating it to be the decision of Government, that, under the circumstances of the case, it would not be proper to press for the penalty.

SUGAR DUTIES BILL.
Lord Althorpmoved the order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Ways and Means, with a view to the continuance of the Sugar Duties Bill.
The Marquis of Chandosexpressed a hope that the noble Lord would postpone this Bill until the report of the Committee on the West-India interests should be

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laid before the House. He had been informed, that certain resolutions were to be submitted on Friday, on which it was probable their Report would be founded, and the Report, it was likely, would be before the House early next week.
Lord Althorpsaid, that he could not comply with the wish of the noble Marquis, because it was not likely that the Report of the Committee would be made in sufficient time. He believed with the noble Marquis, that certain resolutions were to be proposed to the House on the day mentioned, but he was afraid that the Report could not be made so soon as the noble Marquis calculated on, and it was important that the Sugar Duties Bill should be brought forward at an early period, as the Bill founded on the resolutions must be passed by the 5th of April.
Mr. Keith Douglassaid, lie had hoped that the noble Lord would not have proposed the continuance of this Bill, until he was prepared to state what were the ultimate views of the Government upon the subject of these duties.
Mr. Robert Gordonalso requested, that the Bill might be, for the present, postponed in order that the fullest information might be before the House.
Lord Althorpsaid, that if this Bill were to be opposed as the Bill of last year had been, he must either proceed without delay, or allow other public business to be impeded. It must be recollected, that the Bill to be founded on the Resolutions, was a money bill, and, therefore, would take a longer time than another bill to get through its various stages. He was, however, willing to postpone it for the present, provided the noble Lord (Chandos) would come to an understanding, that, after the discussion in the Committee, no further delay should be thrown in the way of the progress of the Bill.
Mr. Goulburnthought, that the Bill ought to be postponed for a week, which was not a very material delay. For himself, he would say, that he should offer no unnecessary opposition or vexatious delay, knowing, as he did, that the Bill must be passed before the 5th of April, although he must protest against the adoption of the course proposed by the noble Lord, that the House were to abstain from discussing the Bill after it had been brought forward on the resolutions agreed to in a Committee.
Mr. Burgesaid, he had no doubt that it was the intention of Ministers to bring
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forward some plan founded on the Report of the Select Committee, and, therefore, it was important that the House should be in possession of the evidence on which these resolutions were founded, before they were called upon to agree to the Sugar Duties, which were of paramount importance as regarded the West Indies.
Lord Althorpsaid, he never meant to ask the House to abstain from discussing the subject, after the Report of the Committee was delivered. All he meant to say was, that the Bill of last Session was opposed in every possible way, and, if the same opposition was extended to the proposed Bill, he should not have time to get it through the House by the 5th of April, unless all other business was postponed. Upon the understanding that no vexatious opposition, for the mere purpose of delay, would be offered to it in its future stages, he would consent to put off the present question until Wednesday next. He begged it also to be understood, that, should the Report of the Committee not be before the House by that time, he could not pledge himself to postpone it any longer.
Bill postponed.

EMPLOYMENT OF TROOPS.
An hon. Memberbegged to ask the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, whether he was disposed to give some explanation, of troops being marched to the vicinity of a recent meeting, without the cognizance of the Lord Lieutenant of the county, or of the Magistracy.
Mr. Stanleyhad received information from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, that the troops had been marched in consequence of a breach of the peace having been anticipated. There was no wish to conceal this from the Magistracy of the county, but the circumstances admitted of no delay. The orders had, therefore, been given without their knowledge, and the presence of the military had, probably, prevented the threatened disturbances.
Sir Henry Hardingetook the present occasion to remark, that he decidedly objected to the calling out of the military in any part of the kingdom, without the authority and presence of a Magistrate to sanction the proceeding. It was placing the officer in command in a most painful situation. He regretted to observe, that, for some time past, this practice had been increasing.

PETITION FOR REFORM FROM NEW YORK.
Mr. Huntwished to avail himself of the present occasion to ask a question of the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, relating to a petition from the British residents in America. It would be recollected that last Summer an account had appeared, in the newspapers, stating, that a petition to the King, from certain natives of Great Britain and Ireland, resident in New York, in favour of the Reform Bill, had been transmitted to this country. It had received 600 or 700 signatures, and had been transmitted to Earl Grey, in order that it might be laid before his Majesty; but his Lordship, by his Secretary, had returned for answer, that there was no precedent for such a proceeding. He (Mr. Hunt) had received a letter on the subject from some of the parties in New York; and, as they were anxious upon the subject, he begged to ask the noble Lord, whether there was any probability that the petition to the King would be presented?
Lord Althorpreplied, that this was the first time he had heard of the petition. Ministers, certainly, did not wish to set any new precedent on such a subject without a sufficient reason. For his own part, it was not in his power to give any answer to the question of the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Huntthen said, that he would take another opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the subject.

BUCKINGHAM PALACE.
Sir Fred. Trenchtook occasion to call the attention of Members to the report on Buckingham Palace, and he hoped that they would only read a few pages of it in preparation for his Motion on Friday next. They would find, that 700,000 l. had already been expended upon this building, to which sum was now to be added about 75,000 l., for completing some of the apartments, besides an unascertained sum for the state-rooms, in order to complete which, it would be found necessary to make indefinite purchases of lands and houses in Pimlico.
Mr. Cressett Pelhamwas convinced that the sum necessary to make this palace a habitation fit for the Sovereign would be so great, that it would be preferable to abandon the undertaking altogether rather than to attempt it.
Mr. Humesaid, the large sums that had been so wantonly expended on the royal palaces, ought to make them extremely
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cautious how they voted money for such purposes, There were certain items of this character in the Miscellaneous Estimates, which the House ought to be acquainted with before it went into the Committee. He would suggest, that one quarter's Estimates ought to be taken first, instead of the five quarters together, so that there might be time to examine the matter fully.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, it was not his intention to bring on the Miscellaneous Estimates to-night; but when he did, he thought it would be more convenient to the House to vote the whole of the five quarters at once.

PORTUGAL.
Mr. Robinsonasked, whether any and what precaution had been taken for the protection of British trade on the coast of Portugal, in the event of certain contingencies rendering it necessary?
Sir James Grahamsaid, that at present there was a British Admiral off the coast of Portugal, to whom instruction had been sent to give all possible protection to the trade of this country.

SUPPLY — NAVY ESTIMATES.
Lord Althorp moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.
Sir George Clerkbegged to ask the noble Lord, upon what plan he intended to proceed with regard to the Navy Estimates. He understood the right hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Admiralty, did not intend to call for any money for the Naval Department for the present quarter, as there was a sufficient balance in hand to cover the expenses, and he (Sir G. Clerk) could not think it right to vote Estimates for five quarters when the funds already in existence were sufficient for one. The same remarks were applicable to the army; there was a large sum in the Exchequer remaining on account of that department. He wished to ascertain, therefore, whether it was intended to apply those balances to the service of the year?"
Lord Althorpreplied, that it would be necessary now to vote the supply for five quarters, and it was intended to apply the surplus to the aid of the Ways and Means.
Sir Henry Hardingethought that the mode of preparing the Ordnance Estimates ought to be adopted in the other branches of the public service. Whenever a balance occurred in that department at the end of

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the year, it was placed to the credit of the 1 public, and applied to the service of the following year.
Mr. Humewas sorry to differ from the hon. and gallant General, but his plan would go to prevent the House from knowing what sums were really expended in each particular department. It was necessary they should know whether the amount expended was agreeable to the Estimates; and the simplest way of ascertaining that was, to keep the receipts and expenses of each department under separate heads.

SUPPLY—RELIEF TO THE WEST INDIES.
The House in Committee of Supply.
Lord Althorpsaid, he need not remind the Committee, that, in the course of the last autumn, a very severe calamity befel some of the West-Indian islands—more particularly Barbadoes, St. Vincent's, and St. Lucia, in the shape of a hurricane, which occasioned an immense destruction of property. On this calamitous event occurring, the agents for those islands applied to the Government, to know whether it would not afford some relief to the sufferers? Upon looking at what had been done on former similar occasions, he found that calamities of a similar description, but less in the extent of their disastrous results, had before occurred, and particularly one in 1780; on which occasion, Parliament thought it incumbent on the mother country to give assistance to the distressed Colonists. Soon after the recent calamity, very urgent solicitations had been made to his Majesty's Government for relief, and the application had been enforced by a reference to what had formerly been done. It was strongly urged that, if it was then thought necessary and expedient, there was no good reason for refusing relief now. Upon a consideration of all the circumstances, his Majesty's Government felt itself bound to accede to the application, so far at least, as to show some sympathy felt for the colonists, who suffered on this occasion by a calamity inflicted by the hand of Providence, and which had come on them by no fault of their own. The first step taken by Government was, to ascertain the amount of the loss; and he regretted to state, that the inquiries made on that point, under the direction of his noble friend at the head of the Colonial Department afforded reason to suppose, that the amount of the loss was nearly 1,700,000 l.
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That was a sum which, in the present state of the finances of the country, it was impossible to think of granting to the colonists, and it seemed as if relief could not be afforded. Upon looking back to the year 1780, it was found, however, that the estimated loss at that period was above 1,000,000 l., and that the sum voted by Parliament for relief was 80,000 l. His Majesty's Government, after some consideration, finding that there was a class of sufferers to whom no relief could be afforded, except by means of an actual grant, and thinking that to make up even a small proportion of the loss sustained might be of some service, and knowing that, at least, it would show that the country felt sympathy amidst its own difficulties for their situation, it had come to the resolution of proposing to grant them 100,000 l. Under these circumstances he felt that he was not extravagant, and he hoped it would not be supposed that the Government was acting in an improvident manner in proposing this vote. He did not think it necessary to trouble the Committee with a long statement in favour of the grant. He would, therefore, content himself by moving, as a resolution, "That a sum not exceeding 100,000 l. be granted to his Majesty, for the relief of certain of his subjects, whose property had been destroyed by a hurricane in the islands of Barbadoes, St. Vincent, and St. Lucia.
Mr. Burgemerely rose to express his gratitude to Government, and his approbation of the principle on which they proceeded in proposing this vote. He was not connected with either of the islands which had suffered so severely, but he most cordially approved of the resolution, because it proceeded upon the principle that it was a national duty to relieve our fellow subjects in the West-India islands in their distresses. Acting upon such feelings of Colonial policy, they would do much to bind the Colonies to the mother country by the strongest of all possible ties, by generating in them a similar good spirit, which he doubted not would bear fruit in due season.
Mr. Humesaid, he was reluctant to oppose this grant, either as a matter of sympathy or as a matter of policy. He could not, however, agree with the hon. Member who had spoken last, in approving the principle on which it was granted. It was a bad principle, and one which he could not recognize. There were numbers

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of our fellow subjects on every side of us suffering grievous distress—not owing to any fault of their own, but owing to the visitation of Providence; and he could not see why, if losses sustained by a stroke of Providence in the West Indies were to be made good out of the public purse, losses sustained in the same manner in our own country should not be made good from exactly the same resources. Still he would not oppose the grant.
Lord Althorpsaid, that he did not bring forward the vote as a matter of principle, but if ever there was a case deserving the consideration of the House it was the present. The vote could scarcely be said to establish a precedent, for, as he had already stated, the precedent had been set in 1780. Every application of the sort must depend upon its own merits.
Mr. Goulburnwas of opinion that there never was a vote founded on a more just principle than that now before the Committee. No duty could be more imperative on Parliament, and no vote more obligatory, than one evincing the sympathy of the Parliament of the mother country with their fellow subjects, who were suffering under an infliction of Providence, which no efforts of their own could avert. If they were to hesitate or decline to assist our dependent possessions under such circumstances, and let it go forth that this was the only European state which had no sympathy for the sufferings of its Colonies, they would go far to sever the bond of allegiance which united those island's to the parent country, and to deprive themselves of those advantages which were incidental to the possession of colonies.
Mr. Laboucherewas unconnected with the West-India Colonies, but he felt himself called upon to return his hearty thanks to the noble Lord for the proposition he had brought forward. He could not conceive a case which more demanded the sympathy of the House, and the assistance of the country. The distance of the suffering Colonies from any immediate relief aggravated their distresses very much. Had a similar calamity affected any part of the United Kingdom, friends and assistance were at hand, but in an insulated colony the whole of the community, when it was visited by such a stroke of Providence, was generally involved. Such being the peculiar circumstances of this case, he trusted this vote would be unanimously agreed to, although be was very ready to acknowledge
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that, in common cases of difficulty and distress, applications to the Legislature for relief ought not to be granted. It was important that the public should see that the House did not lend its sanction to the principle of relieving ordinary distress, but that the House, knowing of such a wide spread calamity, and representing the whole empire, including the colonies, was anxious to shew its kind feeling to the suffering parties.
Mr. Robinsonsaid, no doubt it was only upon extraordinary occasions, like the present, when an overwhelming calamity had visited a whole community in a manner which rendered it impossible to obtain relief from any other quarter than Parliament, that assistance should be given by the House. It must be remembered, that the sum of 100,000 l. was but a very small part of the loss which bad been sustained; and he very much regretted that the difficulties which pressed upon the country prevented a larger amount being given. He was, however, very thankful for the sum that had been proposed. After those remarks, he need hardly say, that he cordially concurred in the policy and propriety of the grant. He begged to ask, merely for information, under what control the sum about to be voted would be appropriated, for he did hope the utmost care would be taken that the money went into the hands of those for whose use it was intended.
Lord Althorpreplied, that Government would be responsible for the mode in which the grant would be appropriated. They intended to take into consideration, not only the amount of property destroyed, but also the several classes of persons who had suffered. Such checks would be placed upon the distribution of the money as would prevent any abuse of the bounty.
Mr. Cressett Pelhamwas happy to think the vote would be unanimous. He considered the Colonists was as completely identified with this country as the inhabitants of any one of its counties. He had understood that, in the event of the calamity reaching Government, they had immediately removed the restriction upon the importation of foreign stores. This was a wise and prudent measure, and he hoped the arrangement would be permanent, instead of temporary, so as to enable those Colonies to procure the necessaries of provision and lumber on cheap and reasonable terms.
Mr. Huntsaid, he held it to be a good

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and proper principle for Government to relieve the distresses of their subjects whenever and wherever they needed it; and as so much had been said of the distresses of the West-Indian Islands, he wished Government to look also at home. He begged to call the attention of the House to the situation of the paupers in Bethnal-green workhouse, as described in a petition now before the House. He was sure their case as much deserved the sympathy of Parliament as the sufferers in the West Indies. He should propose, therefore, that the vote should be increased to 101,000 l. and that the odd thousand should be applied to the sufferers at Bethnal-green.
Lord Althorpdid not think the hon. member for Preston need persist in his Motion, as the case of Bethnal-green had been already under the consideration of Government, and he might add that temporary relief had been granted to a larger amount than the hon. Member had proposed. In consequence of the assistance afforded, 500 paupers had been withdrawn from the workhouse.
Mr. Huntexpressed his very great satisfaction at the statement the Committee had just heard from the noble Lord, for which he begged to express his sincere and cordial thanks. He withdrew his Motion with great pleasure, being happy to find there was no occasion for it.
Mr. Marryattfully concurred with those hon. Members who had expressed their satisfaction at the Resolution proposed by the noble Lord, and he was, moreover, happy in being the organ of conveying to him the gratitude and unfeigned acknowledgements of the suffering Colonies. This he did, not in consequence of the amount of the grant, although he was ready to acknowledge that it was as liberal as could be expected, but because the tone of his speech, and the manner in which the House had received it, evinced a feeling of sympathy for the distresses of the Colonists. They would no doubt appreciate this, and he trusted it would tend, in a great degree, if followed up by a plan of general relief, to soften those feelings of irritation and distrust which were unfortunately now too prevalent. To get rid of those feelings by removing the causes was a task worthy of engaging the attention of the most paternal Government.
Resolution agreed to.

SUPPLY—THE BBITISH MUSEUM.
Mr. Baringrose to move the customary annual vote for defraying the expenses of the British Museum. The gentleman who had for many years been in the habit of proposing this vote (Mr. Bankes) being no longer a Member of the House, the duty had devolved upon him, as the only remaining Trustee who was now a Member. Any hon. M mber who took the trouble to look at the Estimates for the current year, would see that they did not materially differ from the accounts of the preceding year, excepting in this particular, that the sum asked for was about 1,600 l. more than last year. This was required for defraying the expenses of a negotiation that had been concluded for a very valuable body of manuscripts, called the Arundel Manuscripts. These had been obtained from the Royal Society, partly in exchange for a number of duplicate books, but a balance of 900 l. had to be paid on the part of the Museum. The remaining sum of 600 l. was wanted for the purchase of some coins and medals, the possession of which were deemed to be of considerable importance. It was considered by the members of the Royal Society, and by the trustees of the Museum, that a considerable public benefit was effected in this transfer of the Arundel Manuscripts from the possession of the one to the other, for the persons to whom alone they would be useful, were not accustomed to consider the apartments of the Royal Society as a place where such documents would be likely to be found, and, therefore, in their hands they remained nearly useless; whereas, in the library of the Museum circumstances were directly the reverse. He would take that opportunity of remarking, that increased accommodation had been afforded to the public availing themselves of the pleasure of the Museum, which had been made so valuable by the bounty of this country; and, in accordance with the suggestions which had been thrown out last year, the library was now open to the public every day in the week, except Sundays. That the late grants had not been uselessly applied, was apparent from the number of persons visiting the British Museum, which it would be interesting to the House to know. During the last year, no less than 38,000 individuals had visited the Museum, and very nearly 100,000—namely, 99,852 persons from all parts of the kingdom, had, within the same period, visited the library for the purposes of study. These results, he thought, were

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sufficient to show, that in this grant, at least, there was no waste of the public money. He therefore begged leave to move, "that a sum, not exceeding 16,922 l., be granted to his Majesty, to defray the estimated expenditure of the British Museum, for the year ending at Christmas, 1832.
Sir Charles Wetherellwas happy to find, that the duties so ably heretofore discharged by Mr. Bankes, had devolved upon his hon. friend who had just sat down, under whose surveillance, he felt satisfied, the Museum would be made useful. The negotiation which had been concluded between the British Museum and the Royal Society, was most beneficial to both, and, lie thought, that on the present occasion, the transfer of duplicate copies had been made without loss to either institution.
Mr. Humerejoiced to hear there was an increase in the number of visiters to the Museum, which, he believed, was owing to the more liberal arrangements made for the accommodation of such parties. He should not object to the vote, but would merely suggest to the noble Lord opposite, the propriety of reducing the grant from 16,000 l. odd to 11,000 l., as it appeared, that in January last, there remained on hand of the amount granted last year, a sum exceeding 5,000 l., and he did not see why such a balance should be kept in hand by the trustees.
Mr. Baringremarked, that the sum voted had always been a grant for the expenditure of the year, and, in consequence, the society had the fifth quarter in advance. The account of the expenditure laid before the House is an account of the expenditure within the year which had just elapsed (1831), and unless the same mode was adopted on the present occasion as heretofore, as the Estimates were seldom brought forward before the month of March, the fifth quarter would not be in advance, but the trustees would be incurring expenses during the interim, without having the means of paying them.
Vote agreed to.
The House resumed.

MALT DUTIES DRAWBACK.
On the question, that the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Malt Duties Drawbacks Bill be read,
Mr. Dixonregretted the noble Lord had not postponed his Bill until next Session. The only foundations for it were the unsupported allegations of the Irish distillers,
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who had thought proper to put forth the most calumnious assertions against the Scotch distillers, which, if the opportunity were afforded, the latter would refute in the most satisfactory manner. The assertion of the Irish distillers was, that as the Scotch were able to undersell them, therefore their spirits must be fraudulently manufactured. Instead of exerting themselves to compete with their neighbours, they say, there is a possibility of so managing, as to evade the Excise regulations, and, they asserted, that the Scotch did it. The consequences of the measure proposed by the noble Lord would be, the revival of illicit distillation all over Scotland. It had been suggested to him, that a better course than that proposed would be, to take off the whole of the Malt duty, and place an extra duty of 3s. a gallon on spirits, which would yield a larger revenue than was now obtained from the double duty. Distillation from malt would then become general, and would be highly advantageous, from the increased number of persons it would employ. As he knew other Gentlemen were anxious to address the House, he would content himself by moving, that this Bill be read a second time this day six months.
Mr. Horatio Rossseconded the Amendment proposed by his hon. friend, the member for Glasgow, being well convinced of the bad policy of the measure now under discussion. He had been a member of the Malt Drawback Committee, and heard all the evidence given before it. That Committee was appointed in consequence of the complaints which the Irish distillers made against the Scotch: they boldly accused the Scotch of committing frauds to such an extent, that it was impossible for the fair Irish distiller to carry on his business. But what was the result of that inquiry? Why, that although the Irish distillers were most ably supported in the Committee by the hon. member for Kerry, and several other able men, who, if it was possible, by questioning and cross-questioning the witnesses, would have detected fraud, if any existed, yet they were unable to prove one single case of fraud on the part of the Scotch distillers. All that could be proved was, that Scotch whiskey was sold in Ireland cheaper than the great monopolists of that country found convenient, but this was no proof of fraud on the part of the Scotch. Persons acquainted with the two countries knew very well

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that Scotland had natural advantages, which enabled her to produce spirits cheaper than the distillers of Ireland could; and, he believed, that one of the chief causes of Scotch whiskey having been sold so cheap in Ireland for some years past had been owing to the great competition, and that the Scotch distillers had been selling at a decided loss: and several of the greatest distillers in that country had become bankrupts within the last two or three months. Although it did not appear in evidence that the Scotch had been trading to a disadvantage, yet, he had no doubt it was the case. He believed, that the great Scotch distillers had been running a race against the Irish, and that they had suffered severe losses in consequence. He earnestly hoped, that before the House came to a final decision on this important question, Members would read the Report of the Commissioners of the Board of Excise, in reply to the complaints of the Irish distillers. These Gentlemen ought certainly to understand the subject. The concluding paragraph of their Report was this:—
"In conclusion, we beg to submit to your Lordships, that when the benefits which have been achieved by the present system, and the increasing probabilities that a perseverance in it for some time longer will eventually eradicate illicit distillation, are compared with the evils which have resulted from that practice, and from attempts to collect any high rate of duty, the question is not to be decided as the memorialists imply, by considerations which are merely of a fiscal nature; but, when it has, as we apprehend, been clearly shewn, that exclusive of the large additional profit derived from the increased quantity of spirits brought to charge, the revenue has derived an absolute increase from the operation of the present law, and that the effect of repealing it would be either to place the licensed distillers, especially those of a small capital and inferior skill, under great disadvantages, in his competition with the smuggler, if not altogether to suspend his operations—we are induced to suggest to your Lordships the policy, particularly with reference to the late augmentation of duty on spirits, of suspending any diminution of the present rate of allowance, until further experience shall have shewn how far it may be prudent to modify a system involving so many interests, and from which the revenue, and, it might be added, the community of those districts in which it prevails, are, at this time, deriving so many important advantages."
This was the recorded opinion of these Gentlemen — and they concluded, after mature consideration, that a reduction of
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the drawback would be attended by the most injurious consequences, both to the revenue and to the country; yet, in the teeth of this Report, his Majesty's Ministers, yielding to the clamour of the Irish distillers, backed by the Irish Members, were about to alter that law which, after an experience of several years, had been found so efficient, both in crushing smuggling, and in benefitting the revenue; he had lived the greater part of his life in Scotland; he had seen the bad effects of the former system, and the fatal consequences of smuggling upon both the morals and habits of the people; he had witnessed with pleasure the change that had taken place in those habits, in consequence of the temptation to smuggle whiskey being done away, by allowing a drawback to the fair distiller of malt whiskey; and he felt convinced, that if this Bill was carried, it would immediately cause a recurrence of those disgraceful, demoralizing scenes. He also considered it a gross breach of faith on the part of Ministers with those gentlemen, who, upon the strength of this drawback, had invested their capitals in the erection of distilleries. This vacillating system perpetually changing and interfering with the laws, on which the fortunes of many respectable persons depended, would have the effect of checking enterprise and speculation, for every man would feel that trading was not safe. Upon the faith of certain existing laws, a man invested his fortune in a particular branch of business, and no sooner was he fairly established, than the regulations on which he relied were changed, and he found himself ruined. That would be the case with many distillers in Scotland, he was afraid, if this Bill was carried, and he therefore was determined to oppose it at every stage.
Mr. Leaderfelt himself bound, in consequence of what had fallen from the two hon. Gentlemen who had asserted, that the Scotch distillers had been forcing a trade at a loss, and that their success against the Irish was owing to their superiority of skill, to say a few words to the House. In reply to these assertions, he would produce the evidence that was adduced before the Committee, by which it appeared, that the malt drawback admitted of frauds in every stage. This was apparent from the testimony of a gentleman of the name of Falls, who stated, that he had been for many years a distiller at Duncannon, that he himself possessed peculiar resources,

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and could purchase the materials for his business on unusually low terms—that he was acquainted with the Scotch method of distillation, and had the best machinery, and yet, that he found himself undersold at his own door, by spirits manufactured in Scotland from corn purchased in Ireland. He could not account for this, except by supposing, that the Scotch distillers must have some improper facilities under the system which this Bill was to do away with; and he was satisfied that was the case, when, on a visit to Scotland, for the purpose of inquiring into the subject, he saw that no steps whatever were taken to prevent spirit being manufactured as the distillers pleased. The result of the freedom they enjoyed, and the use they made of it was such, that the best appointed Irish distillery could not compete with them on account of the effects of this unfair drawback. He was satisfied, therefore, that the Act in favour of the drawback ought to be repealed, and all the distillers in the United Kingdom should start fair upon equal terms.
Sir George Murrayregretted, that any difference should exist on any subject between Ireland and the country to which he belonged; but he felt, that the fraud ought to be proved before any alteration should take place, particularly when such an alteration would deeply affect Scotland. The only ground of imputation against the Scotch distillers was, that the Irish distillers could not account for their being undersold in their own market, except by means of fraud. There had already been inquiries into this subject before parliamentary Commissioners, and it was apparent that great benefits had been derived from the existing system; and he thought, that some evidence should be given that a change which would so materially affect the morals of the people, by encouraging illicit distillation was necessary before it was made. With respect to the testimony of Mr. Falls, on which the hon. Gentleman had so much relied, he believed it had been confuted by that of another gentleman, of the name of Smith. Under these circumstances, he called upon the Government to pause before they re-introduced smuggling into Scotland, which would be the consequence of such a measure as that now before the House. He should, therefore, support the Amendment
Mr. Francis Baringsaid, that the case did not rest exclusively upon the evidence
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of Mr. Falls, or of Mr. Smith, but was supported by that of gentlemen from Scotland, connected with distillation. There was one case in which the raw grain had actually been found in the copper; and another, where the circumstances were equally strong; and yet the law was so bad, that in neither of these cases was the Excise able to obtain a conviction for fraud. The right hon. Gentleman would, no doubt, be ready to coincide in regulations that would put an end to fraud; but the best way of getting rid of the fraud was, by getting rid of the temptation; for, as long as there was a temptation to commit fraud, dishonest persons would effect it. The right hon. Gentleman relied on the regulation for the drawback having been introduced by a Commission, whose labours deserved the greatest praise. That was true; but the hon. Member for Radnorshire, who was a Member of that Commission, was also a Member of the Committee, in obedience to the Report of which this Bill was brought in, so that an equal weight might be said to attach to both.
Mr. Walter Campbellsaid, that supervisors, sent down by the Government to examine into the Scotch distilleries, had invariably reported, that they found no instances of fraud whatever; and, indeed, the Irish distillers themselves allowed, that no case of fraud had ever been proved against the Highland distillers. The unfortunate Highlander had a strong claim upon the sympathy of the House. If distress occurred in Ireland, England poured in her wealth to alleviate its severity; but, when Scotland was in a state of starvation, no one came forward to assist her. For some time past, the Highlanders had been labouring under the most serious privations, which they had always borne with the most laudable fortitude: but now this resource was to be taken from them. He trusted, that, under these circumstances, a short delay would be allowed, in order that the Bill might be seen by the Scotch distillers, so that they might have an opportunity of giving their opinion upon it. He understood that the greater part of the Irish whiskey was made from oats, instead of barley; and that, out of 1,000,000 of gallons only 230,000 of them were made from malt; so that the Scotch drawback was not calculated to do Ireland any great mischief.
Lord Althorpdid not think that any further delay was necessary. Notice had

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been given of the intention of Government to introduce such a measure before Christmas. That proper information had reached Scotland was, he thought, evident from the fact, that all those who were interested, spoke on the subject as if they understood it extremely well. Even the Highland Society bad made communications to Government in relation to it. The Bill was calculated to remove those facilities to the commission of fraud, which had too long existed. That was its sole object, and he hoped it would be found effectual.
Mr. Gillonsaid, that, as so full a discussion had taken place in the Committee on this subject, he would not now trespass at any length on their attention. He was aware, that it was of no use appealing to facts, or even to the statements of their adversaries, which refuted themselves. Argument was to be borne down by clamour, and his countrymen were to be the sufferers. He had before alluded to the injustice which would thus be done to a most respectable body of men—the maltdistillers of Scotland, who had been betrayed, as it now appeared, by false inducements held out to them, to invest their capital in this trade. Every day convinced him only the more of the im-policy of the change proposed, and of the evils resulting to commerce from that unsteadiness and mutability of purpose observable in our Excise regulations. The House seemed to forget, that "confidence was the soul of commerce," and that they were now wantonly sporting with the rights and property of their fellow countrymen. He had shown that the low price of spirits in Scotland arose from the competition, and that the distillers of raw-grain whiskey, which was the species complained of, had been selling off under prime cost, but this was an evil that would soon cure itself. But, if the representations of the distillers be deemed interested and ex-parte, he begged to call the attention of the House to the Reports of the Highland Society of Scotland; he believed he might say, the most extended, the most intelligent, and the most influential association in the kingdom; they deprecated the change proposed, and suggested other means, which he had before suggested to the Committee, for preventing fraud, as far as was possible, under the present Excise system. He was sure, if time was given, that petitions would be sent in from every county in Scotland against this change.
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He should be happy to concur in a change of the Excise regulations, the whole of which, by their absurd complication, held out the strongest temptation to smuggling. He believed the revenue might be much more effectually guarded at half the expense; he should be happy to concur in a change of that sort, but not in one which was to sacrifice the fair trader and the man of small capital to the smuggler and the monopolist. He had heard, with the greatest alarm, that it was not altogether out of the intention of the Government to carry this change still further. With what confidence were the malt-distillers to go on, with this further change hanging over their heads? His constituents did not hesitate to say, that they must be driven from a country where there was no security, in consequence of this continual vacillation in the Legislature, for the investment of their capital. He was convinced this experiment would fail; but, if it was to be tried, he begged to suggest, that the change should take place from the 5th of July next; as, by that time, the process of malting for the season would be brought to a close, and less injury would result to those interested in this trade, and it would less interfere with existing agreements, than if forced on in the beginning of April, and the middle of the season.
The House divided:—Ayes 41; Noes 17 —Majority 24. Bill read a second time.

List of the NOES.:—

Arbuthnot, General

M'Leod, R.

Brydges, Sir J.

Morison, J.

Best, W. S.

Pelham, C.

Campbell, W.

Townshend, Hon. Col.

Campbell, J.

Wetherell, Sir C.

Galley, T.

Wyndham, W.

Gillon, W. D.

Weyland, J.

James, W.

Tellers.

Lowther, Hon. Col.

Ross, H.

Murray, Sir G.

Dixon, J.