Commons Sitting of 21 February 1832

MINUTES.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. PIGOTT, the Gross Amount of the Sums paid by Persons compounding for their Assessed Taxes, under 59 George 3rd, cap. 51, in each of the three years ending 5th April, 1822; similar Returns of the Sums paid by Persons compounding, or renewing their Compositions, under Acts 1 and 2 George 4th, 4 George 4th, 5 George 4th, and 7 George 4th, in each of the nine years, ending 5th April, 1831:—On the Motion of Colonel DAVIES, a Copy of the Instructions issued by the Governor of New South Wales, for the Regulation of the Penal Settlements:—On the Motion of Mr. CROKER, Estimates showing the Superficial Extent in Acres of the Boroughs in Schedule A from 46 to 56, and of all the Boroughs hereafter to send Members to Parliament under the Bill now in progress through the House, the extent of the Limits of the New Boroughs to be included in such Estimates:—On the Motion of Lord MILTON, of the
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total quantity, and cost of Wheat purchased by the Victualling Office for the use of the Navy, from 1816 to 1831, inclusive; the same Return of Bread Purchased or Contracted for by the Commissariat for the use of the Army:—On the Motion of Mr. HUME, of the Officers for whom Services of Plate were provided at the Public Expense, and transferred with the Office on Non-appointments, stating the Expense of each Service; and of the several Public Officers who were allowed Outfits of Equipage, with the Amount allowed, and by what Authority the same was fixed; of the Compromise or Agreement entered into in 1824 with the Executrix of the late Colonel Browne, the Agent for Recruiting in Ireland, relating to the Payment of 170,000 l. due from the said Colonel Browne at his decease, and an Account of the Sums paid Annually on Account of the Same, and the Sum remaining now due; an Account of the Expenses incurred, and the Number of Reports presented by the Commissioners of Inquiry during the years 1830 and 1831; of the Persons to whom 556 l. was paid as Fees on the Patent creating Sir JAMES SAUMAREZ a Peer; of the Expenses and Receipts of Printing and Publishing the London Gazette, during the year 1831.
Petitions presented. By an HON. MEMBER, from the Inhabitants of Cardiff and Cowbridge, praying that those towns, with Llantrissent, may return one Member, and that Merthyr Tydvil might have no share in such Return:—By Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY, from Dartmouth, praying that that Borough may be transferred to Schedule B:—By Mr. PIGOTT, from Solicitors in the County of Buckingham, against the General Registry Bill:—By Mr. WRANGHAM, from Great Grimsby, praying that the Borough might be taken out of the Disfranchisement Schedule, and retain its privileges of returning Two Members:—By Viscount DUNCANNON, from the Inhabitants of Ballycallan, praying that a Member may be given to the City of Kilkenny instead of Dublin University in the Irish Reform Bill:—By Mr. HODGES, from the Inhabitants of Folkestone, against the Union of that place with Hythe to return one Member only:—By Mr. CHARLES DUNDAS, from the Owners and Occupiers of Mills at Halifax, against the Factories Regulation Bill:—By Mr. SHAW, from the Guild of Merchants, Dublin, to continue to that City the benefit of the Coal Meters Superintendance:—By Mr. HUME, from Thomas Wakley; for an Inquiry into the Causes of the Distress at Bethnal Green and Spitalfields:—By an HON. MEMBER, from the Guild of Shipwrights, Galway, praying that the peculiar Franchise of that place might be preserved.

SILK-TRADE.
Mr. Alderman Venablespresented a petition from persons engaged in the various departments of the Silk-trade of the metropolis, complaining of the importation of foreign silk goods, and praying for an inquiry into the condition of the silk-trade. He begged leave to state to the House, that the persons who had signed this petition usually employed 150,000 persons, and they were individuals who represented a considerable portion of the capital employed in the silk-trade. He must, therefore, express his anxious opinion, that this petition deserved the most serious attention of hon. Gentlemen. The petitioners stated the present dreadful condition to which operatives were reduced, and represented to the Legislature the immense losses they had sustained in their business; they stated, that the distress which at this moment pervaded the silk-trade throughout the empire was unexampled; and that,

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whereas, on former occasions, they had some cause to look for future improvement in their trade, they could not, at the present moment, indulge in any hope of a removal of the pressure under which they suffered though their manufacture generally was cheaper and much better than formerly, because the British public were supplied by the French manufacturers. They affirmed, that the distress, of which they complained, did not arise from any diminution of the consumption of silks, but from the unprotected state in which they were placed by the policy of the Government of this country. The petitioners also affirmed, that a great proportion of the inhabitants of the parish from whence this petition chiefly emanated, were employed by themselves, and that they were almost unable to continue their trade. They stated that the employment which they were able to give, would scarcely keep the workmen from actual starvation, and that these poor men had scarcely any clothes to cover them. They attributed this unexampled pressure to the extensive use of foreign goods, and the consequent want of labour for the weavers. They stated their anxiety that a revision should be made by the Legislature, in the law relative to the importation of foreign silks, as they represented the whole of the silk-trade of the country to be in a similar condition with that of the metropolis. He must observe, in giving his most earnest support to the prayer of this petition, that it had never been his practice to make strong, unnecessary, or unfounded statements of the distresses which might be suffered. He assured the House he would much rather be engaged in the attempt to alleviate that distress, than to blazon forth exaggerated accounts of the pressure complained of. But he was bound in duty to state, that the present situation of the weavers in Spitalfields was more deplorable than upon any former occasion. There were at this moment not less than 1,100 persons in the parish workhouse, and upwards of 6,000 paupers on the parish books. As a further illustration of the depression of the trade, he must state, that the reward for their labour, as indicated by the rate of wages, was in itself decisive as to their condition. In 1825, the average was 16 s. 7d. per week—in itself comparatively a very imperfect remuneration. After that, the reciprocity system of Mr. Huskisson was applied to the silk trade,
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and, as a consequence, in the next year, the wages fell to 7s. 9d., from which they had since fallen to 6s., and, in some instances, to 2s. 10 d. He hoped that an inquiry would be instituted into the general state of our manufactories as connected with the silk trade, and he was sure it would be found that the pressure arose from the inability of our manufactures to compete with those of Lyons at the present scale of duties, and not from any removal of the trade to Manchester, Coventry, or other places, or to a decreased consumption of silk. The petitioners did not presume to press any specific remedial measures upon the House, they merely wished their situation to be thoroughly inquired into, but he knew their opinions went to the extent of desiring the prohibition of foreign silks, as they felt the present duty of 10 l. per cent afforded them no adequate protection.
Mr. Huntregretted that none of his Majesty's Ministers were in their places, as he had called their attention to the state of the poor in Bethnal-green, and he had hoped that some inquiry would have been made on the part of Government into their condition.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanfully concurred in the prayer of the petition, and would take that opportunity of stating, that he had a similar petition from the operative silk weavers of Spitalfields. He had presented petition after petition on the subject for years, and every word he had stated had been verified. He always thought it unjust that foreign silks should be allowed to interfere with the home market, particularly when we could produce more than sufficient for our own consumption. The petition with which he was intrusted was signed by 9,000 heads of families, who stated that the fears which they had long entertained had been realized, and that they were reduced to the greatest distress; that their wages had fallen from 18 s. a week, to 6s. and 8s.; and that they were in a worse state than slaves in the West Indies. The petitioners went on to state, that 10,000 looms were superseded, and 30,000 persons were thereby thrown out of employ. Owing to the introduction of French goods, the fancy trade had been destroyed, and, what was worse, till the French fashion was known, no stock could be laid in. The whole trade now was in heavy goods. The complaints from Macclesfield, Man-

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chester, and Coventry, were of a similar nature. At the latter place, the Poor-rates proved the distressed state of the trade. In 1826 the rates amounted to 11,000 l., in 1831 to 20,000 l., and in 1826 the casual relief to the poor amounted to 2,000 l., and in 1830 to 4,000 l. He regretted to see the higher classes so backward in relieving that class who ministered to their luxuries, and, in place of purchasing from the regular trader, rushing to those places where there was an extensive sale of goods at a low rate.
Mr. Alderman Woodmost heartily supported the prayer of the petition. He well knew the distresses which had caused it to be presented, and which had been borne with the greatest patience and resignation by the sufferers, who were a most industrious class of persons, and deserved every attention from the House.
Alderman Thompsonsaid, he must also bear testimony to the miserable condition to which the operative silk weavers of Bethnal-green and Spitalfields were reduced. He would not, at the present time, enter into the causes which, in his opinion, had created, or at least increased, these evils, but he was apprehensive prohibitory enactments alone would not relieve them, as it was notorious that the importation of the raw material had increased 30 l. per cent within the last seven years. Other trades were also in the same depressed condition, he, therefore, on the whole, rather wished that an inquiry should be instituted into the distressed condition of our manufacturing interests altogether, than confined to a particular branch. The distress was not confined to the silk trade, or glove trade, or ribbon trade, but extended to every branch of our manufacturing industry.
Mr. Wynn Elliscontended, that a great fallacy prevailed among the abettors of free trade principles, with respect to the amount of material consumed in a manufacture, being a test of the condition of the manufacturing workmen. In the silk trade, for example, the quantity of raw silk worked up in a given time by the weavers had more than doubled of late years, while his remuneration had fallen off more than one-half. This was owing to the nature of the manufacture being coarser, and consisting chiefly of plain articles. The more costly fabrics and fancy articles, those which required most skill in workmanship, with less of the raw
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material, were not now produced in any quantity; consequently the quantity and value of the workmanship had declined, though the consumption of the raw material had increased.
Mr. Humehad also a petition to present, which would show the distress then in Bethnal-green, inasmuch as it stated, that the funds from whence the Poor-rates were drawn were not sufficient for the purposes required, in fact, that they were inadequate to the maintenance of their paupers. This petition was drawn up by a Mr. Wakley, who had visited Bethnal-green at the request of some respectable parties. He states, that the Poor-house, which is intended to afford accommodation for only 500 inmates, is now crowded with 1,090; and that, in 334 beds, are laid 1,090 persons, in a state which, he submits to the Legislature, is calculated to generate the dreadful disease which now threatens us, and to spread it amongst a dense population. He adds, that the rents of the houses in the neighbourhood are but small, but that such is the unfortunate condition of those who inhabit them, that they are not able to pay the rates. The petitioner states, that every attention has been paid to these people by the Overseers, and every exertion has been used to afford relief, but that their humane efforts have been crippled from the want of sufficient funds. That the distress was very great there could be no doubt; but he agreed in opinion with those who said, that the pressure was not confined to the silk trade. He felt confident that much mischief had arisen in that trade in consequence of the book of prices, a system which ought to be abolished, as prejudicial to the trade. In no extensive branch of our manufactures had there been so much alteration as in the silk trade. In 1816 the distress was very great; and he could not imagine that prohibitory duties could avail the trade, inasmuch as they tended to create greater prices than the trade could afford to pay. At that time, too, the changes of pattern had increased in number beyond what could yield a profit in the trade. He believed that, after a most mature consideration of the subject, this House came to the determination of doing away with the book of prices, and of leaving the masters and workmen to arrange the rate of wages amongst themselves. He was sorry to say, that, while he admitted the existence of this distress, he saw little hope of a speedy

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amelioration of the pressure. Partial assistance might be given, but it would require great prudence and caution to legislate on a subject which so deeply affected a most important interest. Great as the evil was, he did not see how they could remedy it. He was fully prepared to say, that, if it could be shewn that, by the alteration in the regulations of our trade, that trade had decreased, and distress increased, the law ought to be revised. But seeing that the trade had increased, he could not believe that those alterations in the law had caused the distress. He believed that the distress was owing, in part, to the great change which had been effected in the whole trade within the last seven years. The petitioners stated their belief, that the best means of alleviating the pressure under which they suffered would be, to put the corn trade on the same footing as the silk trade, and other branches of our commerce, by placing it on a principle of free trade. He was quite satisfied that country gentlemen would soon find that they were not benefited by keeping up their high prices, and, therefore, it would be much better to open the trade in corn. At any rate, the state of distress in which these unfortunate people were placed was such as to demand the serious attention of his Majesty's Government, and he was sorry that not one of the Ministers was present, because this case, in his opinion, thould be made an exception to a general rule. Throw open the corn trade, and a benefit would thereby be conferred not only on the silk weavers, but on the country at large.
Petition to be printed.

LEAF AND CO.
Mr. George Bankessaid, he expected, at the time he gave notice relative to the case of Messrs. Leaf and Co., that the discussion which might arise in consequence of the topics which it would be his duty to introduce to the notice of the House, would have been preceded by some discussion upon the distress of those persons with respect to whom the hon. member for Coventry had given the notice which stood for that night. It was not for him to say whether that hon. Member had acted with the best discretion in consenting to the postponement of his notice as he had done. It was sufficient for him to know that the parties most interested had informed him, upon his applying to them, that his Motion would not in the least interfere with their object, and
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that, on the contrary, they were anxious it should come on for debate. Under these circumstances, therefore, he had no hesitation in proceeding with the notice which he had entered. He should not find it necessary to occupy at any great length the time or attention of the House; for he trusted to be able, with great facility, to make out such a case as appeared to him, and, as he hoped would appear to the House, seriously to call upon his Majesty's Ministers for some explanation. He grounded this notice, and his introduction of the subject to which it related to the House, upon those distresses of which so much had been said. When he considered that Ministers, at the time the transaction to which he was about to call the attention of the House took place, were fully aware of the existence of this distress, and had received, from day to day, memorials with respect to it from the petitioners, it appeared to him extraordinary that Government should have thought itself justified in sanctioning any remission of the penalties which the law imposed for the protection of the trade of these distressed persons, in whose behalf he appealed to the House. The petitioners complained that the provisions of the law, even as fully enforced, were not sufficient to ensure them a fair remuneration for their labour, and if the Government, therefore, instead of enforcing the law, had sanctioned the violation of it, these parties must be seriously aggrieved, and the House ought to be well satisfied as to the justice of the grounds upon which Ministers proceeded. It might be right for him, in the first instance, as the circumstances might not be fresh in the memory of all who heard him, to state how it was, that the matter first came under the cognizance of the House. In August last, the hon. member for Preston asked a question of the right hon. the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, relative to certain seizures of silk which had been just then made; to which the right hon. Gentleman answered, that the penalties incurred would be levied to the utmost extent of the law. This was a few days subsequent to the period at which the transaction took place; and the House had reason to feel some degree of surprise when, early in December last, on the hon. Member's renewing his question, it was found that a compromise had taken place with the offending parties, and the full amount of the penalties had not been

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enforced. Upon that occasion the hon. and learned Attorney General appeared to take some credit to himself for having made a very good bargain for the public, in obtaining so large a sum as 20,000 l. by way of penalty. He differed from the hon. and learned Gentleman, for he could not admit that it was a good bargain as respected the public, because the compromise was injurious to the fair trader. Whoever would look at the papers, and consider the information which was laid, on that occasion, before Government, by credible witnesses, who might have been produced at a trial, could not fail to see what must have been the result of taking the case into a court of justice. If, indeed, the witnesses were not to be believed, any compromise was an act of injustice to the parties implicated. But the truth was, that the case did not rest upon the testimony of the informers alone, for the facts stated in the returns amounted to a confession by the parties that the major portion of these goods were justly seized. It appeared that, on the night following the first seizure, which took place on the 5th of August, under circumstances that admitted no doubt of its justice, the parties composing this firm were employed in packing up goods, which they removed from their premises. This circumstance, till explained, amounted to a confession of the charge, and, therefore, the bargain made by the Government was not a good one, for, had the proceedings been regularly pursued, the full amount of penalties would have been recovered—penalties, be it remembered, not given to eke out the quarter's revenue, but for the protection of those distressed persons engaged in our home trade. There was no ground of compassion urged for the remission of these penalties. The parties were well able to bear the full amount of the penalties. But, putting aside the mere question of penalties, he entreated the House to consider what would have been the moral effect of bringing a respectable firm like this into a court of justice, and of exposing them, if they had been found guilty, to all the public odium they would so well have deserved? By entering into a compromise with them, that odium was avoided—a circumstance in itself which tended to diminish the moral effect of public opinion upon transactions such as this. If it was once admitted, that infamy and honour could be made a matter of barter and sale
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of pounds, shillings, and pence—of gaining 20,000 l. for the revenue, when, perhaps, that was very convenient to the revenue—a doctrine would be sanctioned, which, he trusted, that House would never tolerate. But if that were not the meaning of this good bargain, what was meant by it? It was no answer to the charge, to say, that such compromises had taken place before. In small cases, the compromise of an offence against the revenue might be laudable; for it might be a course of compassion not to enforce the full penalties, to the total ruin of a poor man. But, in a case of magnitude like this, where the parties were all wealthy, and where the attention of the right hon. the Vice-President of the Board of Trade had been called to the subject before the compromise could have been proposed—before the matter had been taken into any court of law—in fact, within ten days of the transaction, no compromise ought to have taken place, even supposing that the party prosecuted saved only 5l., instead of 13,000 l., by it. He must say, if the papers laid upon the Table of the House in relation to this subject were full and accurate, that Ministers had abused their discretion. But, after all that had been affirmed upon this subject, they had had no information as to what proceedings were actually commenced, or whether any were actually commenced—how they were stopped—and whether the proposition for a composition came from the Government, or from the parties themselves. He submitted, with confidence, to the House, that the facts had not yet been brought completely before them; and that the additional information which it was the object of his Motion to obtain was wanting. The House was, of course, aware, that a discretionary power was vested in the Government with respect to transactions of this nature. There were three different modes of effecting a compromise. It might be effected by a minute of the Lords of the Treasury, by an order of the Board of Customs, or even, after the matter had been carried into court, by the Attorney General's entering a nolle prosequi. He did not know which of these three courses had been taken in the present case, and, in his view of the subject, that was of no consequence whatever. Government could not rely upon former precedents. They could not say—"We have followed the

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ordinary course on such occasions, by accepting four-fifths of the penalty we should have recovered by going into a court of law." He contended that the condition of the starving English weavers made the following such a course, on the present occasion, an improper and unjust exercise of this discretion, especially after the pledge which was given by the right hon. the Vice-President of the Board of Trade. If the money thus recovered were to be applied to the maintenance of these starving weavers, he might agree with the Attorney General that the learned Gentleman had made a good bargain, and could easily imagine that, with those kindly feelings which are known to govern his heart, he might say, "let us get this 20,000 l. to a certainty, for the benefit of these poor people, without going into a court of law for the chance of 10,000 l. more." If such had been the case, he might admit, that the compromise would have been beneficial to the weavers; but, he could not, even for their advantage, sanction a course which had the tendency to weaken the little protection the trade now derived from the law. When the present commercial system was introduced, it was said and written—by way of offering a great inducement to the removal of the then existing prohibitions,—that it would check, if not effectually prevent, smuggling. It was urged, that honourable and respectable persons, if an article were prohibited, could only obtain it by evading the law, but that they would be ashamed to do this, if a legitimate channel were opened by which they could obtain it. This was an argument addressed to every man's feelings; and if it did not of itself make converts to the new system, it no doubt went a great way to produce consent to a trial of the experiment. But what became of all that, if a respectable commercial house like the one in question was allowed to compromise? Government should have said at once, "whether you be guilty or not we will make no compromise with you; we consider the evasion of these duties an illegal act, and we will not give it our sanction by a compromise, although the revenue might benefit by such a compromise." Supposing the contents of these papers could be relied upon, he had no doubt that a professional man, of abilities infinitely less than those of the Attorney General, would have insured a verdict in
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any court into which the case might have been carried. He knew Messrs. Leaf and Co. could state, and he believed that they did state, that they were not guilty, but "had been entrapped into this compromise." But it further appeared in the statement made by Messrs. Leaf and Co., that, after the Attorney General had made what he considered so good a bargain, the whole of the goods seized were, at the request, of the respectable house, actually returned to them, and these goods would now be thrown upon the market, without having paid the duty, greatly to the injury of the petitioners. This was an unintelligible fact, and he could not imagine what induced the right hon. the Vice-President of the Board of Trade to sanction that proceeding. If any doubt came across his mind, and those of his right hon. colleagues, as to the guilt of these parties, they should have directed a revision of the sentence of condemnation. If such a doubt existed, it was a complete answer to his motion; and the sooner the right hon. Gentleman signified the existence of such doubt to the House, the sooner this interruption of its other business would cease; but nothing, as far as he could understand, had yet been done in respect to any such revision of the case. They were told, indeed, that Messrs. Leaf and Co. asked for it; but not that it was granted. A great deal of discussion had taken place to-night with respect to the appointment of a Committee to consider the distress of the silk manufacturers generally. That was a subject on which he was not at present competent to decide, but he was convinced that nothing but the most rigid enforcement of the laws for securing the trade that protection which the laws promised it, could save the manufacturers from immediate destruction. He should abstain from anticipating that discussion which, he understood, was to take place on the subject of the distress of the silk trade; and, when it did come on, he should be ready to receive all the information that might be given upon that most important subject. He was perfectly certain, however, that the law, as at present administered, did not give adequate protection to our manufacturers. Whether it would do so, if strictly enforced, it was impossible for him to determine. Whoever looked at the public journals must be struck with the fact that smuggling was rapidly on the increase. They heard of

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continual accounts of seizures; perhaps he might be told, that all this was only a proof of increased vigilance. He knew not whether it were so; but he knew that the manufacturers thought the amount seized was nothing, compared with that which obtained illegal admission into the country. Indeed, the fact that any goods purchased on the continent might have their delivery insured to persons in this very town, for a premium, varying from eight to fifteen per cent, sufficiently established the fact, that the seizures were comparatively few. The right hon. the Vice-President of the Board of Trade smiled at this statement; but it was no subject of mirth to the starving silk-manufacturers. He did not mean to impute to the right hon. Gentleman, that he did not feel for their distress; but he thought that even their prejudices should, under all circumstances, be considered; but, instead of that, his Majesty's Government had outraged both their reason and their prejudices in the compromise they had made. From the returns upon the Table, it appeared that the contraband transactions of Messrs. Leaf and Co. commenced about the 12th of May last, and were regularly carried on every Thursday night, on which the moon did not happen to give too much light to render it dangerous to continue them, till the time of seizure. It was curious, too, that they were carried on through vessels anchored off the Custom House; and there could not be a doubt, from the statements of the witnesses, that these illegal dealings, on the nights upon which they were so carried on, were equal in extent to the lawful dealings of the day. This presumption was confirmed by the figures before the House—figures which ought to prevent the Government having any doubt on the subject. He held in his hand a statement of figures material in that point of view. They consisted of returns of duty paid by that house between the months of May and November. In the month of May the amount of duty paid was 1,711 l. in June, it was 887 l.; in July it had sunk down to 126 l. The discovery was made in August, and in August the duty suddenly swelled up to 1,390 l. A striking difference was also observable between the amount of the general duties received by Government on foreign manufactured silk, in the quarter ending on the 5th of July, 1831, and the quarter
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ending on the 10th of October, and was, in his opinion, a strong corroboration of the statement of the silk weavers, that a system of smuggling had been going on to a very considerable extent. In the quarter commencing on the 5th of April, and ending on the 5th of July, the general duties received by Government amounted to 39,648 l.; and in the next quarter, in the early part of which the discovery of Messrs. Leaf and Co.'s transactions was made, the amount of duties increased to 50,932 l.; being a difference of more than 10,000 l. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for the following returns, in addition to the papers already on the Table:—"A copy of the information or process served upon Leaf and Co., and the proceedings thereon; a copy of the minute or order of the Treasury Board or Customs, directing the mode in which the goods seized were to be disposed of; a copy of the minute or orders of the Treasury Board or Customs, by virtue whereof the penalties were remitted; a copy of any correspondence which took place between the Treasury Board, Customs, or the Board of Trade, with respect to the seizure of the goods."
Ordered.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—BILL FOR ENGLAND—COMMITTEE—FIFTEENTH DAY.
Lord Althorp moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee on the Reform of Parliament (England) Bill.
On the Motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. Crokersaid, that he had obtained a return which enabled him to answer one point which arose in the debate of last night. That point was the omission of the return of the Game Certificates, and he had ascertained that such certificates were included in the return made for Appleby. He thought he was warranted in saying, that, in the comparison of the products, the lists were avowedly erroneous, that the deficiency of this class of taxes would make an alteration with regard to the position of Chippenham, Amersham, Petersfield, and other places touching the line of enfranchisement, and that sufficient information had not been furnished to enable any person to frame this list with accuracy. The deficiencies now discovered would occasion a change of places as regarded, several bo-

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roughs; therefore the House looked on the cases as decided. It was absolutely necessary, therefore, that the lists should be reconstructed upon the more correct data that could now be furnished. He was quite sure that neither the House nor the public could desire them to proceed with a list which was obviously erroneous. He begged, however, to be fully understood that he did not intend to blame Ministers or Lieutenant Drummond, for it was extremely difficult to obtain correct information. But when the fate of one borough was dependent upon that of another, it was very important they should proceed with due caution in a measure of disfranchisement. A new calculation upon the more correct data at present before the House would give a new denominator to the whole of the boroughs, and the result, as regarded several of them would be different from what it was in the present list. He thought he was not asking too much, therefore, when he requested the noble Lords not to proceed until the report was brought up, when, if it appeared, on a more accurate calculation, that the relative position of the boroughs immediately bordering upon the boundary was changed, a change could also be made in the schedules. Of course the calculation was only of importance as it affected those boroughs which were fifty-six or fifty-seven on the one head and eighty-six and eighty-seven on the other, or those immediately above or below those numbers. He was not prepared to say, that the new calculation would have the effect of placing any borough, now within the boundary line of disfranchisement, beyond that line; but he was sure the noble Lord could not say it might not have that effect. It might change the position of Wallingford and Totness on one hand, and Petersfield and Amersham on the other. But his great object was to prove, that, in a measure of this nature, their proceedings ought to be characterized by the nicest accuracy that the subject would admit of. He was sure that he was taking a candid course in requesting the noble Lord to have new calculations made, according to the new information that had been furnished; and if it should appear, on obtaining a new denominator, that a change would be made in the relative position of any of the boroughs, he would have it corrected in the schedule on bringing up the report.
Lord John Russellwas ready to admit there was some difference as to the mode of taking the taxes in some of the boroughs in Lieutenant Drummond's list, but he was, by no means, prepared to admit, that a new calculation made, avoiding these discrepancies, would alter the position of any borough in either of the schedules. He certainly was not prepared to postpone the consideration of the cases of the boroughs, until a new calculation had been made. However closely the matter might be examined—whatever new information was brought—although, like the present, of a trifling nature, differences would appear; yet he was sure that new information would make no alteration in the general result. He was sure that the House were not aware of how much attention and pains had been bestowed upon the most minute of all these points, nor of the difficulty of arriving at a satisfactory conclusion upon all of them. He thought it would have been best for the House to have taken the return of the taxes as it appeared on the list, and not have attempted the various amendments, which had all turned out equally open to objection. There were, he admitted, trifling discrepancies in the returns, and it was quite impossible to arrive at the minute accuracy of information which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to desire. This he would undertake to do—he would reconsider the case of each borough, and if it should appear that any one had been improperly included in the schedule, justice should be done to it on the bringing up of the report.
Mr. Crokerdid not object to irregularities arising out of the general application of the same principle. He only complained that some boroughs were treated on a different principle from others. He had not objected to these small points of difference, because he knew how difficult it was, to get at the truth in such cases. What he said was, that if the twenty-nine boroughs which he had before him were dealt with upon just principles, Helston would probably be taken out of schedule B. The result of all these matters was that they had chosen a blind guide in their search after a new Constitution.
The House went into Committee.
The Chairman put the question, that "Appleby, in Westmoreland, stand part of schedule A."
Lord Maitlandsaid, he had already presented a petition from the borough of Appleby complaining of the incorrect report made by the Commissioners sent to that place. Upon this occasion, he again felt bound to stale the nature of the objections that had been urged by the petitioners, who only asked for an equal measure of justice to be dealt out to them in common with others. They complained that the calculations had been made on the erroneous returns furnished by the commissioners, and that the position which the borough of Appleby occupied on the list of disfranchisement was the consequence of that error. It appeared that, according to the return of the Commissioners, there were only 210 houses in the borough, but, according to a document which he held in his hand, of the date of 1741, and which marked the boundary of the borough, the return ought to have been 305 houses, for that boundary included 305 houses. Of course, the error with regard to the Houses, as it arose from curtailing the borough, also extended to the taxes. It appeared that the returning officer of Appleby had made two returns to the House. On finding that he had not correctly stated the boundary of the borough in his first report, he corrected the error by means of a second, which was in exact conformity with the jurisdiction of the Mayor and Corporation, as well as the document to which he had just referred, which contained the perambulation of the Mayor, Aldermen, and Corporation of that time. He had carefully looked over the parliamentary paper marked "No. 4," relative to this Bill, without being able to find any borough that had been treated in a similar manner to Appleby. It appeared in this case (and he hoped it was a solitary one) that the commissioner had left out an important part of the town, and the calculation had, in consequence, been made without any reference to this error. The suburbs on the different sides of Appleby were known by the name of Gates; but one portion of the town, named Bondgate, had not been taken into the calculation at all. He should, therefore, move, that the borough of Appleby should be taken out of schedule A, and be inserted in schedule B.
Lord John Russellobserved, that the noble Lord had asserted, that a different rule had been applied to this borough from that which was made applicable to
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others; but it appeared that the right of voting for Appleby was confined to the holders of burgage tenures. The Commissioner stated, that all the best authorities of the place considered the burgage tenure houses to constitute the whole borough, and all these houses had been included in the return. The case of Appleby, therefore, was in perfect conformity with the general rule. In Appleby, there were two boundary lines—one which included the town, and places not properly forming a part of it, although it was under the jurisdiction of the Mayor; and the other, which included all the burgage tenure houses that were ever known in Appleby. The latter was considered by the inhabitants themselves as constituting the whole borough. The same rule had been applied in this case as in others, and the extent of the suffrage had been taken as the extent of the borough. This was the case with Great Grimsby; and as the voters in Appleby must be holders of the burgage tenure houses, it was thought right to confine the limits of the borough to them: there was not the least evidence to support the assumption that Bondgate was ever considered as a part of the borough; certainly, there were no burgage tenures in that township. Again, there were some boundary-stones which marked the limits of the town, which did not include Bondgate. In addition to this, when the Mayor, who was returning officer, was called upon to furnish a return of the boundary of the borough, he did not go beyond these stones, but made a return which was quite in conformity with that of the Commissioner, which did not include the part alluded to by the noble Lord. The returning officer subsequently sent in another report of a very different nature, including the township called Bondgate, and said, that this latter was to be considered as the correct return, as the former was made in haste. The first boundary, included all the houses giving the elective franchise, and was equivalent to the boundary-stones of the borough, and over which the Mayor and Aldermen had sole jurisdiction as Magistrates. The second boundary, including the township, was never considered as belonging to the borough, although certainly the mayor had concurrent jurisdiction in it, as far as regarded the granting of ale licenses. The election of Members of Parliament had always been confined to those residing within the first boun-

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dary, and the inhabitants of Bondgate had as much control over elections as if they resided at the distance of 100 miles from the place. He thought, therefore, it was clear, that the Commissioner founded his report on a correct view of the case, and would not have been authorized in going beyond the line. It had been said, that in some cases the boundary-line had been corrected, and that the correction had been admitted: the only case in point, and about which there could be the slightest doubt, related to the borough of Midhurst, and certainly that borough went beyond the line of disfranchisement. The difference, however, between the two cases was this: in Appleby, the Mayor exercised some jurisdiction in the township; but, in Midhurst, there was no mode of determining the boundary but by means of those who had exercised the elective franchise. He did not think that anything had been stated which ought to induce the House to depart from the general rule that had been laid down. Unless they were disposed to take a different rule for each place, Appleby ought to remain in the schedule. As he did not feel himself competent to give an opinion when the point was started, he had referred it to an hon. and learned friend, who had long had considerable practice before the Election Committees of this House, and he was clearly of opinion, that it would be very unsafe to adopt the new report of the Mayor, as there was every reason to suppose that the old return gave a correct description of the boundary of the place.
Mr. Pollockdid not doubt but that the noble Lord, in this, as well as in the case of every other borough, was desirous of proceeding with the strictest justice; but still, it would have been better if the noble Lord had taken more care to ascertain the facts correctly, before he made his decision. If one place had a greater claim to a just and careful consideration, before it should be condemned to disfranchisement, than another, it was a county town, such as Appleby. Better reasons ought to have been given before the noble Lord proceeded to exclude Bondgate from the estimates respecting the town. The second boundary was, in reality, the boundary of the town; and the circumstance of the jurisdiction of the Mayor was a strong presumption on this point. His second return ought to have been taken, and not the arbitrary line which the noble Lord
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had chosen, as including the burgage tenures. The noble Lord referred to the Report of the Commissioner; but what did that say? "I have visited Appleby, and the result of my examination is, that there is no certain boundary as regards the elective franchise." Even according to this report, the opinion of those most likely to be correct was not obtained, and no pains were taken to refer to documentary evidence on the subject. The noble Lord said, that it was thought expedient to confine the franchise to that part of the town in which the burgage tenures were, and how did the Commissioner find to what extent this franchise prevailed? Why, he drew an arbitrary line from the boundary stones of the town. The noble Lord seemed to think that it was desirable to confine the elective franchise, in the old towns, to the ancient boundaries. If this was to be done, how was it intended to apply this rule to the old Corporations, where the elective franchise was always in the freemen? He conceived that the right ought to be determined by the jurisdiction of the Magistrates; but, according to the noble Lord's rule, an arbitrary Hue must be taken. The arbitrary line that had been drawn extended from boundary stone to boundary stone, in a direct line, and crossed the river at a place where there was neither bridge nor ford. If hon. Gentlemen would look to the map of the place, they would perceive what he meant, as the yellow line proceeded in the direction he had pointed out. On these grounds, he hoped the Committee would pause before they came to a decision so contrary to all principle, as that which was involved in affirming the proposition now before the House. According to the course adopted by the Commissioner, they were to pass the water at a place where there was neither bridge nor ford, at a short distance from the castle, and thus cut off that portion of the town nearest the castle. If the Commissioner had determined that the boundary stones were the limits of the borough, he, at least, ought to have gone up the river, until he met with a bridge or ford, and then have crossed it, and drawn his line to the second boundary stone. If this had been done, they would have been much nearer the true boundary stone than they now were according to the arbitrary line that had been drawn. But he begged to ask those acquainted with the books of authority on the subject of boundaries, whe-

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ther, although Appleby was now within the line, it did not formerly extend, in the way that has been pointed out in the plan of the peramblations. He wished to call the attention of the House to a few of the names of this place. Here was Scattergate and Newgate, with the town that was at the entrance, and Bondgate was in the immediate vicinity, and which, they contended, therefore, ought to have been placed within the town. Any one who was acquainted with the old English towns, knew that the gates were always at the boundary: thus, in London, although now the parts known by the name of Gates were in the middle of the metropolis, yet they were formerly in the boundary wall, and even now served to shew the limit of the City. Thus, although Ludgate was in the middle of the street of that name, yet it was the boundary of the City in the direction in which it lay. Again, Holborn, where there were neither bars nor gate, was formerly the boundary, so, at Newgate, Cripplegate, Bishopsgate, &c.; and the power of the Corporation did not extend beyond them. This was precisely the case with Appleby; for the town was formerly a fortified place, and the gates served to shew the original extent of it. The presumption was extremely strong, therefore, independent of all other circumstances, that Bondgate was a part of the borough. It was nearer to, and more under the command of, the castle, than the other parts of the town, and every body knew that it was anciently the custom to build the towns as much under the command of the fortress as possible, more especially in places situated as this was. Again, Dr. Burn, in his History of Westmorland, expressly referred to Bondgate, as having formerly been considered a part of the borough. He would also refer to the document alluded to by the noble Lord, of the date of 1741, and, consequently, prepared long before any one could have the least idea of a measure like the present. That document was the plan of the perambulation of the borough and town, as prepared by John Robinson, Mayor, and the Aldermen. Was this document to be set aside, and the borough to be treated as if no authorities or documents existed to mark out its ancient limits? In all the old authorities, too, the Church of Bondgate was alluded to as the Church of St. Michael of Appleby. From that circumstance alone, it was clear that
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Bondgate was only one of the gates of Appleby, and, therefore, it ought to be included in the borough. If that were done, the borough would be removed from schedule A to schedule B. In such circumstances it was the duty of the Committee to pause before disfranchising a place, in which such a strong case had been made out, and which could not be set aside without a sacrifice of the principles of justice. The noble Lord said, that if Appleby was retained in schedule A, they would be only acting on the same principle towards it, that had been adopted towards other places; and that, if this place was excluded, they would act unjustly unless they excluded other places also. He denied, however, that there was any case at all parallel to the present, and, indeed, the noble Lord had not once alluded to a single case which he supposed to be parallel to it. The Mayor and Corporation stated, that they were prepared to shew that their jurisdiction extended far beyond the space assigned them in the Bill. He, therefore, trusted that, at least, time would be afforded them to prove their case. He hoped the noble Lord, acting in the spirit of fairness and justice which he was at all times accustomed to follow, would deal with this borough according to the principle he had laid down, and not make a rule for this contrary to that which he had seen it expedient to adopt with regard to other places.
Lord John Russellfelt himself called upon, in justice to the Commissioner, not to let one observation of the hon. and learned Member, who had just sat down, pass without a reply. The hon and learned Member stated, that the Commissioner's Report did not take in the whole town. Now, the principle proceeded on was, to take in the whole of the town, whatever might be the case as to the borough; and, in this instance, no part of what could be fairly called the town of Appleby had been excluded. Ministers adhered, in this case, to the arrangement in the List, upon no other ground but because they conceived it to be correct; for whether Appleby or Petersfield stood No. 56 in the List was to them a matter of perfect indifference.
Mr. William Broughamsaid, that, even if the extent of the boundaries was taken to be, as described by the noble Lord (Lord Maitland), and the hon. and learned Gentleman, yet it would not

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warrant the House in removing the borough of Appleby from schedule A. In confirmation of which, he begged to call the attention of the Committee to the title of the paper which had been referred to. It was called the "Boundary of the Barony and Corporation of Appleby," and not that of the "borough." The actual extent of the franchise was all that could properly be taken into the Commissioners' Report, and that was confined to the burgage tenure houses. There was a somewhat parallel case to this in the borough he had the honour to represent (Southwark). A portion of a parish was in that borough, while the remainder, and much the largest part of it, was not, so far as regarded the elective franchise, although it was under the jurisdiction of the Magistrates. The present Bill, indeed, would bring the whole parish within the elective limits of the borough. Again, in Hertford there was the old borough, and there was a circle drawn round this, which was called the new borough, but the elective franchise was entirely confined to the inhabitants of the old borough, although the whole town was completely under the same Magistrates. In the present case of Appleby, there was not the shadow of proof that the perambulation was only co-extensive with the right of voting. The boundary stones were the true limits of the borough, and the Commissioners had acted perfectly right in taking them as such, agreeable to the other cases he had mentioned.
Mr. Crokerwould answer the whole of the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman, by referring to the document of which he had been speaking. The hon. and learned Gentleman had undertaken to show that the document referred to the boundaries of the Barony and Corporation, and not of the borough. Now, the document itself was headed with these words, "Borough of Appleby." It then went on to state the perambulation of the boundary, as it was made by John Robinson, Mayor, and the other Aldermen and Corporation of the said borough, in 1741—and, at the back of this instrument, was the following notice, of the date of 1747. "It having been made apparent at the Court Leet, held at Appleby, on the 20th of October, 1747, that in the perambulation of the said borough, and in the plan of the same, a certain close called the Strand, belonging to W. Ward, Esq., was included in the borough, which, by right, ought not
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to have been: it is, therefore, ordered, by the said Mayor, Aldermen, and Corporation, that the said close so included, is not within the limts of the borough, and that the said inclosure is declared null and void, and is null and void accordingly." Surely, after that document, there could be no doubt as to the value which ought to be attached to this point of the arguments of the hon. and learned Gentleman. Another point advanced by the hon. and learned Gentleman was, that the boundaries of the borough should be strictly limited to a space which should include the burgage tenures which gave the present right of voting; and in that view he alleged that everything which could fairly be considered as a part of the borough or town was included in the boundaries adopted. The hon. and learned Member, however, was greatly mistaken, as to both the fact and the principle. It was not the fact, that the Commissioners' lines included all that could be considered as the town or borough; nor was it the principle on which the Commissioners in other cases had proceeded to limit the boundaries, so as merely to include the present franchise; and in proof that the hon. Gentleman was wrong on both points, he need only compare the case of Midhurst, with that of Appleby. In the case of Midhurst a large rural district was included—whereas, in the case of Appleby, the oldest part of the town was excluded. At Midhurst the Commissioners included the whole parish, although the spot conferring the franchise was very small, and on the extreme verge of the parish, being, as the noble Lord opposite had stated, at a period when he wished to disfranchise Midhurst, three stones in Mr. Poyntz's park-wall; while at Appleby, on the contrary, arbitrary straight lines were drawn, to the exclusion of a portion of the actual town. The Committee must well recollect the speech of the hon. proprietor of Midhurst, (Mr. John Smith) when the noble Lord announced the particulars of the first Bill. On that occasion, that hon. Member said, the bare announcement of such a measure had taken away his breath; but the hon. proprietor was a valuable ally, and, therefore, it had, perhaps, been found desirable to re-animate the hon. Member, and so Midhurst was saved. All he asked was this, that Appleby should be treated as Midhurst was, and, indeed, as every other place in the list, similarly circumstanced,

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was treated. With the exception of Richmond, there was not a single instance in which the boundary-line whatever it might be which was claimed by the local authorities was not admitted; and, in the case of Richmond, there was, on the part of the Mayor, who claimed the boundary, a degree of error or at least confusion which justified a departure from his claim. But even in the case of Richmond, the Commissioner was content to make the river the boundary upon one side, and an irregular line, comprehending all that could be called the town as the boundary for the rest; but, in the case of Appleby, the Commissioner does not condescend to adapt his boundary line either to the natural sweep of the river or the accidental shape of the town. The town of Appleby was partly built on a peninsula formed by the river Eden, and considerably wider at one end than at the other, but instead of including the whole of the peninsula, and adopting the natural boundary of the river as had been done in every other case in England, the boundary lines of the Commissioner had actually crossed the river four times, in order to preserve a straight-line boundary which never existed except on the plan of the Commissioner.
Then in order to obtain four points from which to draw his four straight lines, the Commissioner chooses to say that there are four boundary-stones in Appleby, although no one living had ever seen more than one, and at present, at all events, there was only one in existence; and no one, except the Commissioner, ever called that one a boundary stone; it was called the borough stone; but was no more a boundary than London stone, which is in the heart of the city, is the limit of London; but even, if this stone were the boundary on one point where does he find his other three points, or why does he choose three? Why should Appleby alone, of all the towns on the face of the earth, be an exact quadrilateral figure? The plain truth was, that the Commissioner had made up his mind both as to the shape and extent of Appleby, and without any right or authority whatsoever, save his own good will and pleasure, he drew straight lines from the site of one imaginary stone to the other, and declared the space enclosed to form the borough.
But there was another circumstance which showed very forcibly the partiality by which Bondgate had been
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excluded from the town, of which it was so clearly a part. There were four gates in the immediate vicinity of Appleby. Scattergate on the south; Doomgate on the west; Clapersgate on the north; and Bondgate on the east. Three of those gates were admitted to be within the borough, but the fourth gate—Bondgate—was excluded. Would any Commissioner persuade us that three gates of a town belonged to it, and that the fourth did not? But, in truth, of all those gates, Bondgate happened to be that which (the most certainly and essentially) was and is, a part of Appleby. In the first place it was the gate nearest to the only bridge by which the town could be approached. Then we find in Burn's History of Westmoreland, Bondgate described as the oldest part of the town, it being called Old Appleby, and being the spot in which the bondmen and villains of the Lord lived under the immediate protection of the burgh or castle. In addition to that statement there was the fact that Bondgate was not above one - half of the distance from the castle that any of the other gates were. It was, therefore, impossible to contend with anything like reason or justice, that Bondgate ought to be considered as without the boundaries of the borough of Appleby. Every species of evidence—the natural position of the localities, the ancient names, the perambulations, the documentary evidence, the oral testimonies—all concurred in placing Bondgate within the limits of the borough. But supposing he left that high ground for a moment—supposing he were to admit, merely for the sake of argument, that Bondgate was not within, but only contiguous to, the borough—what answer could be given to him if he asked why was not Bondgate added to the old town of Appleby? Such a course had been pursued at Tavistock, and also at Ripon, and, indeed, in every other similar case. Appleby was the case of exception to every rule, and to every precedent. The case at Ripon afforded a curious coincidence of name, and a still more curious difference in the decision of the Commissioners. At Ripon there was a suburb called Bondgate as well as at Appleby; but the Bondgate of Ripon was added to the borough, while the Bondgate of Appleby was excluded.
It had been asserted by him and his hon. friends, in the course of the discus-

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sion on this borough in the last Session of Parliament, that the borough of Appleby extended into the two parishes of St. Lawrence and St. Michael - Bondgate. Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House had taken upon themselves to deny this. Indeed, he well recollected that one hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. James Brougham) stated—and his statement made a great impression on the Committee—that the borough of Appleby did not extend at all into the parish of St. Michael—of St. Michael-Bondgate; and, as a proof of his assertion, added, that the county gaol stood in that parish. He did not mean to find fault with that hon. and learned Gentleman for hazarding that assertion—he, no doubt, made it upon information which he believed to be true, at the same time that he certainly led the House to believe, that he spoke from local and personal knowledge of the fact. Now, it was admitted, that the hon. Gentleman's statement was erroneous. The Commissioner himself was now forced to state, in his return, that the borough of Appleby was in the parish of St. Michael-Bondgate; so that the point on which the claims of Appleby were rejected in the last Session, was now confessed to be in its favour; and that the former decision was wrong. The new and contradictory ground now taken was equally untenable—equally erroneous. The point, which the Committee was now called upon to argue was, whether Appleby should be restricted to the fanciful limits of the Commissioner, such as had not been allowed in any other borough in England, or whether they should not rather, as had been done in every other case, follow the ancient boundary of the borough, respecting which there could be no doubt. The reasons in favour of the latter course were so numerous, that it would be tedious, and he hoped superfluous, to state them all, and so forcible, that any one of them would be sufficient to decide the question. He would, therefore, be content to narrow the matter to one point, and to put the whole issue on one question;—if any Gentleman would give him a satisfactory reason for distinguishing between Midhurst and Appleby, by admitting an alleged and uncertain boundary in the Conner case, and by rejecting a proved and perambulated boundary in the latter case, he would waive all the rest of his facts and argu-
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ments, and at once give up the cause of Appleby.
The Attorney Generalsaid, that the Committee was not now on the case of Midhurst, nor, was he called upon to defend it further than was necessary to refute the insinuations which had been thrown on the motives of Government by Gentlemen on the other side of the House. This was the first time that these insinuations had been cast during the present Session, and he had hitherto hoped, that hon. Gentlemen had repented of such an unworthy course; for in the former Session they had disclaimed every one of these insinuations, as regularly as the injustice of them had been complained of. With cheers, indeed, they were always received when made, as if his two noble friends had been convicted of sordid partiality; but, though the cheers could not be retracted, the accusation was uniformly withdrawn, as soon as it was questioned, and recoiled on those who had preferred it. No man could suppose that Midhurst. was now revived, for the purpose humorously imagined of restoring breath to the body of the hon. proprietor, or that it was transferred from one schedule to another, for any other reason than because it was found to fall within the rule which made the distinction between schedules A and B. If this were conceded to him as a fact, the imputations fell to the ground, and would not have been made use of by so able and ingenious a disputant as the right hon. Gentleman opposite, but that he felt that Appleby did not fall properly within the same rule. He was not now defending Midhurst. [Laughter.] That was one mode of argument that was resorted to at the other side; and the different principle adopted by Government, and applied by Lieutenant Drummond, was to be treated with derision, till it encountered the complete refutation so confidently threatened by the right hon. Gentleman. He contended that, neither within the former rule nor the present, could the borough of Appleby be taken out of schedule A. But, it was said, "Why not add Bondgate to make it of the requisite strength?" "Bondgate was part of the old borough, and we will prove, by a variety of circumstances, that it was so." It appeared to him that the reasonings employed to make out this point had no bearing upon it; and if his hon. and learned friend, who had argued so effectively last night upon a

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mathematical question, had occasion to address a Westmoreland Jury upon this point, he really thought that he would have no chance of a verdict. It was said, that the line which was drawn was the most capricious and inconvenient boundary that could possibly be adopted. He answered, as had already been stated, that it was not meant as a boundary, in any sense, in which convenience or inconvenience could belong to a boundary. The four lines which the Commissioners had taken included within them the whole of the Corporation rights and burgage tenures. It was true, that if the public were obliged to walk through the river, or to swim across it at the point where the line was drawn, there might be some weight in the argument. The contiguity of the borough and the parish came to nothing, when they remembered that a high hill intervening prevented the castle from being even seen by a great portion of the contiguous parish. Importance had been attached to the name Bondgate, as if the word implied that a gate must actually have existed, and consequently that the parish must have been an immediate portion of the town. But hon. Gentlemen must be aware, that, in the North of England, "gate" meant not a door, but a way or road, and, therefore, that it was not necessary, that it should be an immediate part of the town. Again, the Corporation claims for tolls and other rights did not extend beyond the limits which had been taken. The addition of all Bondgate would have drawn an exorbitant boundary, and the addition of that part only which lay within the actual town would be insufficient to take this borough out of schedule B. Ingenuity might give rise to endless debates on the probabilities of boundary lines, as arising from a vast variety of disputed facts, and ambiguous words. No Session could be long enough for these antiquarian researches and controversial speculations. The Commissioners had clear grounds for the decision they had come to, and might defend it on its own merits. But if each case, as it arose, were to be perplexed by starting another case, in which other Commissioners had taken a course which appeared inconsistent; and if, when that was explained, a third was to be brought into contact with the two first, this Committee, by encouraging such hearings and rehearings, must postpone the passing of the Bill for ever.
Mr. Crokerin reply to the hon. and learned Gentleman's insinuation relating to Midhurst being brought into the discussion from unworthy motives, begged leave to refer him to the noble Lords opposite, and he had no doubt they would inform him that he had previously given them notice that he intended to pursue this line of argument of comparing the cases of the two boroughs with each other.
Sir Charles Wetherellwas not surprised that his hon. and learned friend protested against the introduction of Midhurst into this argument, for he was quite sure that when the vision of Midhurst floated across the dreams of his hon. and learned friend it must give him some uneasy sensations. Last Session everybody seemed to be of opinion that Midhurst ought to be comdemned, as something utterly vile and worthless; and the noble Lord himself had pronounced a formal yell over it as the most rotten of all boroughs, and yet now, to the astonishment of everybody, Midhurst, after having been loaded with every term of reprobation, was, by the present Bill, reanimated—galvanised, as it were. He was, therefore, quite sure that his hon. and learned friend, who always rose in that House with the most Roman and Plato-like sentiments, must have felt somewhat fidgetty at the recollection that some sort of apology was due for dragging miserable Midhurst out of the mire in which it was placed. So, however, the fact was; and that led him to inquire, why was favour to be shown to the borough of Midhurst, and enmity to the borough of Appleby? An hon. and learned friend of his on the other side of the House appeared to him to have gone down to Appleby by the caravan. Now, he could not help saying, that, after the speech which his hon. and learned friend had delivered that night, he thought that it would have been much better had his hon. and learned friend kept himself to Southwark. His hon. and learned friend had told the House, that there was in Southwark a liberty which was well-known by the name of the Clink, into which the jurisdiction of the Magistrates extended, "and yet," said he, "this liberty of the Clink does not belong to Southwark, though it will be added to it by the Reform Bill, and will be gifted with the elective franchise for that borough." Why, this Clink liberty was the Bondgate of Appleby, and if his hon. and learned friend had not quoted it in confirmation of the

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case which his hon. and learned friend wished to make out, he should certainly have quoted the Clink liberty as destructive of that case. But his hon. and learned friend, the Attorney General, had said, that he would not defend Midhurst upon the present occasion. No doubt his hon. and learned friend found it better, on the whole, to make the discovery that Midhurst had nothing to do with the present case. Now, in his opinion, if two cases ever resembled each other, it was those of Appleby and Midhurst [hear]. The right hon. Secretary thought proper to cheer that remark.
Mr. Stanley: If Midhurst is so worthless, and Appleby resembles it, why are we to save Appleby?
Sir Charles Wetherell: The right hon. Secretary thought proper to interlard his argument with side observations; it would give him much more pleasure to see the right hon. Secretary get up and when he had done, to favour the Committee with an argument of his own, rather than a running commentary on his; but, at all events, even on the right hon. Gentleman's own remark, it was clear that if Appleby and Midhurst held similar positions, and Midhurst was to be saved, so Appleby also ought to be saved. He, therefore, meant to contend, notwithstanding the interlocutory sarcasm of the right hon. Secretary, that, as the borough districts of Midhurst had been taken into the account, so also the borough districts of Appleby ought to have weight in the calculation. His hon. and learned friend had, with great antiquarian knowledge, told them, that they did not seem to recollect that a gate did not formerly mean an entry so much as a way or road; and, certainly he must say, that his hon. and learned friend, who was a Seldon in law and a Spelman in antiquity, was quite right in this instruction to the Committee. He had taken a note of everything his hon. and learned friend had said; and he would take upon himself to say, that he had not brought forward any one new fact. It was true, indeed, that he had thought proper to ridicule Dr. Burn by implication, but it might be worth while remarking, that the authority did not rest upon the dictum of Dr. Burn, but on the documents from which he drew that dictum, and which were still in existence. His hon. and learned friend said, that if they entered into discussions of this sort, there
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would be no end to them. He was by no means disposed to pass even a month in such discussions; but he thought that as this attack had been made during the last Session of Parliament, and the matter placed under the severest scrutiny, it was the duty of the Government to come armed with such evidence as should satisfy the House that they had arrived at the correct conclusion, and that Appleby ought to be disfranchised; and five months having elapsed since that attack had taken place, he had a right to complain of no new documents having been brought forward to support the view which the Ministers had taken of this question. He had now only one remark to make in conclusion. His hon. and learned friend had said, that it was the hon. Gentlemen on his (Sir C. Wetherell's) side of the House who proposed to take Appleby out of schedule A. This he denied: it was the Ministers who proposed to put Appleby in schedule A; and it was, therefore, they, and not his hon. and right hon. friends, who had to support the affirmative of the proposition: it was the Ministers who were bound to shew that Appleby was so small as to justify its being placed in schedule A; and this they had failed to do. It. was quite clear that the outer districts were part and parcel of the borough in jurisdiction, in licensing, in perambulation, and in the duties of Coroner; then why were they not also to be part and parcel of the borough in the elective franchise? He did not want to spend a month on this discussion, but he thought that they ought to spend a month on it, or on any case, for the purpose of avoiding an imputation of injustice or partiality, and for the purpose of showing that they were throughout guided by one unvarying and inflexible rule of justice. His hon. and learned friend had said, that he would not waste the time of the House on this subject: it was his opinion, that his hon. and learned friend would have done well to have occupied more time than he had. It seemed to him as if his hon. and learned friend had come into the House without having made up his mind on the subject—as if he did not at all recollect what had taken place on the subject on a former debate—as if he was willing entirely to overlook the fact, which had been proved to demonstration, that the grossest violations of justice had been pointed out, both with respect to schedule A and schedule B.
Lord Althorpobserved, I will not take upon myself to say, that I can give a complete answer to all that has fallen from the hon. and learned Gentleman; but, at all events, I will assure the Committee that, in what I have to say, I will undertake not to display that animation and vivacity in which the hon. and learned Gentleman has so plentifully indulged. In the very outset I beg to say, that to me it is a matter of very little importance whether Appleby is disfranchised or Petersfield; for that after all is, really, the practical question. I, however, feel bound to give my vote on the case as it appears to me; and as I intend to vote for the disfranchisement of Appleby, I beg leave to state, in a few words, why I have come to that determination. The hon. and learned Gentleman has complained of the interruption he received from my right hon. friend. I am afraid that I must take some portion of his censure to myself; for when the hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to forget that he was defending Appleby, and, after saying that Midhurst was indefensible, came to the conclusion that the two boroughs were precisely similar, I certainly could not help smiling at the oversight which produced a somewhat more lively exclamation from my right hon. friend, which naturally arose from the sudden excitement he felt at hearing the hon. and learned Gentleman arrive at so unexpected a result. To revert, however, to the borough of Appleby, which we now have to consider. The facts of the case appear to be pretty well agreed upon. On the other side it is urged, that, because the account of the perambulation that took place in 1741 is headed "Borough of Appleby," though its title, strictly speaking, is, "Perambulation of the Barony and Corporation of Appleby," it ought to be considered that the whole of the districts perambulated ought to be included in the borough, more especially as within those districts the Magistrates of the borough had the power of licensing the alehouses, and appointing the Coroner. There was, however, a record of a previous perambulation, which was called a "Perambulation of the Barony;" and in that, nothing at all was said about the Corporation. The question, therefore, was, whether the introduction of the word "Corporation," in the perambulation of 1741, necessarily showed that the whole of the district per-
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ambulated belonged to the borough? The Mayor, moreover, when required to state the extent of the borough, had confined it to the limits of the boundary stones. Certainly, in my mind, there is no doubt that the borough is described by those stones, and, that a line drawn from stone to stone is the proper way of describing the limits of the borough. In addition to which, I may observe, that the Commissioner states, that he has ascertained that the whole of the houses of the burgesses is included within those lines. I am ready to admit that there are certain rights and immunities extending through the whole district; but the right of collecting tolls is confined to the borough stones, as well as the right of arrest for debt; in proof of the former of which propositions I may state, that, at a mill situated on the river beyond the stones, no toll is collected for flour sold there; and that, at a fair held on Gallows-hill, which is also situated in the outer district, the Magistrates have no right of toll. I think that all these instances pretty plainly show, that there is a decided difference between the precinct within the stones, and the whole of the district perambulated in 1741; and it is on these grounds that I shall give my vote, to the effect that the lines drawn from stone to stone properly express the limits of the borough. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Croker) has thought fit to compare the case of Appleby with that of Midhurst, and he seized that opportunity of implying that the preservation of the latter borough is owing to a feeling in favour of the hon. Gentleman who is the proprietor. But I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman must be quite aware, that, under the provisions of the present Bill, the whole of that hon. Gentleman's power will be done away with; because, instead of confiding the franchise to a hole in the wall, as has hitherto been the case, it will be placed in the hands of the 10 l. householders. It has also been said, that my noble friend, in the course of last Session, stigmatized Midhurst as a rotten borough. Why, so it was a rotten borough, as long as the franchise was attached to the hole in the wall; and now that we have effected a change in the right of voting there, it is just as reasonable to say that Midhurst is a close borough, as it would be to say, that Bath ought to be disfranchised because the Corporation of that place, in which hitherto the right of election has

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been vested, is a close Corporation. However, as I said of Appleby, so I say of Midhurst, it is to me a matter of great indifference whether Midhurst be placed in schedule A or in schedule B: all that I have to do is, to state the reasons why any difference has been made between the arrangement in the former Bill, and in the present. It may, perhaps, be worth while to remark, that Midhurst is different from Appleby in this respect—that the former, having no Corporation or distinct jurisdiction, all we had to look to was, its parochial extent, while, in the latter, we felt bound to take for our guide the general limits of the borough jurisdiction.
Sir Adolphus Dalrymplesaid, it was the bounden duty of the Committee to see that, in ascertaining the boundaries, the Commissioners had executed their task fairly. He attributed no unworthy motives to any party, but he did not hesitate to say, that in the case of Appleby, justice had not been done. He asserted this boldly and fearlessly. When the boundaries of Appleby had been ascertained and defined in 1741, the right of voting was indisputably in the persons occupying burgage tenure houses, but now, when the right of voting was to be changed, that change ought to be calculated upon the full extent of the ancient boundaries. No person, with any knowledge of fortification, and wishing to give strength to the town, would have drawn such a boundary line as that marked by the Commissioners. For the purpose of defence, Bondgate would naturally be included within the line. On descending the hill from Bondgate, the traveller appeared to rush down upon the Castle of Appleby. In all cases of burgage tenure, such as in Appleby, it was incumbent on the House of Commons to see that an ancient borough was not want only disfranchised; and this place had especial claims upon their consideration as the former capital of Westmoreland. For these reasons, the perambulation of 1741 ought to be taken; and, therefore, he would vote against the disfranchisement of the borough.
Mr. John Smithexpressed some regret at having been absent when the hon. and learned Member opposite had made his speech, in which that hon. and learned Gentleman referred to the interest which he possessed in the borough of Midhurst; for he would have then taken the opportunity of informing him, that the only interest which
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he held was that right which was possessed by a Lord of the manor over all the burgage tenures which he held within his boundary. This was all the connection that he and his relations had with Midhurst, and he never had exchanged a word with any Member of the Government about returning a Member to the place. He must also say, with respect to the observations which had fallen from a right hon. Gentleman on the other side (Sir Robert Peel) on the subject of the payment by him, of his assessed taxes at Midhurst, in order to swell the amount of taxes for the borough, for the purpose of raising the estimate of its value, and of enabling it to retain a Representative, that he had all his life acted uprightly, and that he had ever, and would ever, shrink from the commission of an unworthy act. He had paid his assessed taxes for his house in Grosvenor-square, where he resided; but he certainly never once contemplated the payment of any other taxes at any other place, much less of any assessed taxes at Midhurst, for the purposes ascribed to him.
Sir Robert Peelbegged to assure the hon. Gentleman that he was labouring under a complete misconception. If the hon. Gentleman had heard what had fallen from, him on the occasion to which he had alluded, he was quite sure that he could not have fallen into his present error. The amount of the assessed taxes was taken up to a period prior to the introduction of the Reform Bill, so that it was quite impossible that the hon. Gentleman could have paid them in Midhurst with a view to increase the proportionate Estimate of that place. When he had alluded to Midhurst, he had only said—suppose the hon. Gentleman should pay his assessed taxes in that borough, the effect would be to raise the proportion of Midhurst in the scale; and from this proposition he had argued, that to take the assessed taxes as a criterion of the importance of a place was manifestly unjust; because the law permitted those taxes to be paid either on the spot, or at a distance, and therefore the test was a fallacious one. But he begged to assure the hon. Gentleman, that in all this he had not made the least personal reference to him. At all events, he hoped, that it was no reflection on anybody to pay his taxes in a parish in which he did not reside, for that happened to be his own case. With respect to the question immediately be-

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fore the House, relating to the borough of Appleby, the main consideration was, the limits of the borough; and he had no hesitation in declaring, that, in his opinion, the boundaries of the barony and of the borough were, and ought to be considered the same. Anciently a barony and a borough meant the same thing. The borough meant that place in which the Court-leet was held, and comprehended the boundaries within which the burgage tenure houses were. The perambulation of 1741 purported to be made by the Mayor, Aldermen, and inhabitants of the borough. The position of the gates could not determine the question of boundaries, for it was natural to suppose that, for convenience sake, they were placed as near the town as possible. His opinion was, that all parts within the limits of the ancient barony should have been taken in by the Commissioners. On these grounds he should vote for placing Appleby in schedule B.
Mr. John Campbellsaid, that the question was not as to the liberties, but as to the limits, of the borough. When he understood that the Coroner held inquests, and that the Magistrates granted alehouse licences, it was impossible not to say, that the districts where they exercised that authority were not within the liberties of Appleby; but, notwithstanding this, he contended that these districts formed no part of the limits of that borough. The extent of such jurisdictions could not determine the question, for it was well known that, by the King's patent the jurisdiction of Magistrates was often extended beyond the limits of the borough. This was the case in Tewkesbury, and there was another instance of it in the borough of Southwark; for the Ward of Bridge Without was in Southwark. It might, on the grounds on which the Gentlemen opposite, had argued this question, with equal justice, be said, that the borough of Southwark, in which the Magistracy of London had jurisdiction to the extent he had mentioned, and held courts, inquests, and granted licences, was, on that account, part of the city of London, and within its limits. The jurisdiction of the Magistrates of Appleby, did not extend beyond the stones; even the power of arrest was denied to them beyond this boundary, and another important fact in the case was, that the Corporation was bound to repair the roads only within the
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limits indicated by the stones, and that there was no burgage tenement beyond these limits. The Mayor at first admitted that these were the limits of the borough, and, perhaps, in such a case, first thoughts were best. On these grounds he felt satisfied that the Commissioners had drawn the limits with correctness and propriety.
Sir James Scarletthad known Appleby long, and was not aware how his hon. and learned friend had obtained the fact he had just mentioned with respect to the power of arrest, for he believed that there was no instance on record of the power of arrest being exercised later than the year 1795, and then only within the four boundary stones. He was at a loss to imagine on what grounds the stones affixed to mark the stations at which tolls were payable should be deemed and taken to be the boundaries of the particular borough in which they might be so erected. He had never heard of any such principle in law. He believed that tolls were collected in Covent-garden market on goods sold within the market, and on the principle which had been contended for, it might as well be said, that the places where such tolls were payable marked the limits of the Bedford estate. [The hon. and learned Gentleman being here interrupted by a noise in the House,]
Mr. Crokerrose and said, that, with every respect for those Gentlemen below the Bar, who were interrupting the proceedings of the House, he should feel it to be his duty, if they did not bow to what evidently appeared to be the wish of the House, to take some effectual step for the preservation of order.
Sir James Scarlettwas sorry to hear Gentlemen calling out "Question, question," in this manner. He was of opinion, that if, instead of calling out "Question," individuals would pay attention to the debate, they would acquire such information, as might enable them to decide on the subject under discussion with some appearance of calmness and deliberation, as became persons fulfilling their high duties. He must confess he had heard with surprise a principle of law stated by hon. and learned Members, as to the question of tolls, which he felt strong objections to as a lawyer. As to the argument drawn from the boundary stones in these boroughs, he observed, that it was not at all analogous to the case of the city of London. The

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case of London was different from that of Appleby, for the boundaries of London were well ascertained by those parts of the wall still standing. The liberties of London were different, for they were given by charter. In Appleby there was no charter by which the liberties were extended beyond the limits of the borough. He considered that the perambulation of 1741 included only the boundaries of the borough, and not the liberties. This was clear from the circumstance that a certain close not within the borough was included in that perambulation, and afterwards excepted from it, on the ground of having been included by mistake. He had no doubt that this was the decision to which a Judge and Jury would come. In conclusion, he stated, that he would unquestionably vote against the Motion.
Mr. Attwoodwas at a loss to conceive how Ministers could include Appleby in schedule A, while they excluded Midhurst from it. The noble Lord had stated, that for a long time the battle on the subject of disfranchisement lay between Petersfield and Appleby.
Lord Althorp: The hon. Gentleman has mistaken what I said.
Mr. Attwoodobserved, that he was very much mistaken if the noble Lord had not declared that the struggle with respect to franchisement or disfranchisement was between Petersfield and Appleby. If then, this were so, the fairest way would have been, not to have had a debate upon the subject, but to have put the names of the two boroughs in a glass on the Table, and to have drawn one of them. It was quite clear to him, that the boundary line with respect to Appleby and Midhurst, had been taken on a different principle. If the same principle had been acted on with respect to both, both would have been excluded. He denied that Appleby was an insignificant place, in contradiction to the assertion of the Attorney General. If the hon. and learned Gentleman had merely stated, that it ought to be disfranchised because it was a nomination borough, that would have been rational and manly; but, that would have endangered Midhurst, and half a dozen other boroughs that were now saved. To disfranchise Appleby, instead of including the whole town within the limits of the borough, was doing an act of injustice. He warned the Committee against acting on any such principle, which would endanger other
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things. If they proceeded in the way that was now proposed, they would be doing a palpable injury to the people of Appleby, who now held the franchise, by thus depriving them of a right which was deeply important, besides, setting an example that they could be swayed by different principles in their decisions.
Mr. Huntsaid, he recollected hearing the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) denouncing Midhurst as the most rotten of all boroughs, and the hon. member for Buckinghamshire said, he was out of breath with joy at hearing that this and other boroughs were to be disfranchised. The hon. Member was praised for his Roman, his more than Spartan, virtue. Now, however, this rotten borough was to remain, and so the hon. Member got his reward. He always understood that Appleby was as rotten as any borough in England; but he thought it a great injustice to Appleby that it should be disfranchised, whilst other rotten boroughs retained their Representatives; but, the noble Lord and the hon. and learned Gentlemen opposite, had said, they were perfectly indifferent whether Appleby or Petersfield was enfranchised. What! he would ask, were they indifferent to justice? It might be of little importance which of these places should have Members, but it was most important that the House should see justice done upon the principle laid down by the noble Lord. He knew from the temper of the House, that there would be a large majority for the disfranchisement, and he should also vote on that side; but then it was on the ground that Appleby was a nomination borough; and so was Midhurst, for the disfranchisement of which he should also vote; and he then gave notice, if he was in time, that he should move that Midhurst be placed in schedule A.
The Committee divided on the question that Appleby stand part of schedule A.—Ayes 256; Noes 143;—Majority 113.
Appleby was placed in the Schedule.

List of the AYES.

ENGLAND.

Beaumont, T. W.

Althorp, Viscount

Benett, J.

Anson, Hon. G.

Berkeley, Capt.

Astley, Sir John D,

Blake, Sir F.

Atherley, A.

Blamire, W.

Bainbridge, E. T.

Blunt, Sir C.

Baring, Sir T.

Bouverie, Hon. D. P.

Baring, F. T.

Bouverie, Hon. P. P.

Barnet, C. J.

Briscoe, J. I.

Bayntun, S. A.

Brougham, J.

619

Brougham, W.

James, W.

Buck, L. W.

Jerningham, Hn. H. V.

Buller, J. W.

Johnstone, Sir J.

Bulwer, E. E. L.

Joliffe, Sir H.

Bunbury, Sir H. E.

Joliffe, Colonel

Burton, H.

Jones, J.

Buxton, T. F.

Kemp, T. R.

Byng, Sir J.

King, E. B.

Byng, G.

Knight, H. G.

Byng, G. S.

Knight, R.

Calley, T.

Labouchere, H.

Calvert, C.

Langston, J. H.

Calvert, N.

Langton, Colonel G.

Campbell, J.

Lawley, F.

Carter, J. B.

Lefevre, C. S.

Cavendish, Lord

Leigh, T. C.

Cavendish, Hon. Col.

Lennard, T. B.

Chichester, J. P. B.

Lennox, Lord A.

Clive, E. B.

Lester, B. L.

Cockerell, Sir C.

Littleton, E. J.

Creevey, T.

Lumley, J. S.

Currie, J.

Lushington, Dr. S.

Curteis, H. B.

Maberly, Col. W. L.

Davies, Col. T. H.

Macaulay, T. B.

Denison, W. J.

Macdonald, Sir J.

Denman, Sir T.

Mangles, J.

Dundas, Hon. Sir R. L.

Marjoribanks, S.

Dundas, Hon. J. C.

Marshall, W.

Dundas, Hon. T.

Mayhew, W.

Easthope, J.

Milbank, M.

Ebrington, Viscount

Mildmay, P. St. J.

Ellice, E.

Mills, J.

Ellis, W.

Milton, Viscount

Evans, Col.

Morpeth, Viscount

Evans, W.

Morrison, J.

Evans, W. B.

Mostyn, E. M. L.

Ewart, W.

Newark, Viscount

Fazakerley, J. N.

Noel, Sir G.

Fellowes, H. A. W.

North, F.

Ferguson, Gen. Sir R.

Norton, C. F.

Foley, Hon. T. H.

Nowell, A.

Folkes, Sir W.

Nugent, Lord

Gisborne, T

Ord, W.

Godson, R.

Owen, Sir J.

Graham, Rt. Hn. Sir J.

Paget, Sir C.

Graham, Sir S.

Paget, T.

Grant, Right Hon. R.

Palmer, General C.

Greene, T. G.

Palmer, C. F.

Grosvenor, Lord R.

Palmerston, Viscount

Handley, W. F.

Pelham, Hon. C. A.

Harcourt, G. V.

Pendarves, E. W. W.

Hawkins, J. H.

Penleaze, J. S.

Heathcote, G. J

Penrhyn, E.

Heneage, G. F.

Pepys, C. C.

Heywood, B.

Petit, L. H.

Hobhouse, Sir J. C.

Petre, Hon. E.

Hodges, T. L.

Philips, G. R.

Hodgson, J.

Phillips, C. M.

Horne, Sir W.

Ponsonby, Hon. J.

Hoskins, K.

Poyntz, W. S.

Howard, P. H.

Price, Sir R.

Howard, W.

Ramsbottom, J.

Howick, Viscount

Ramsden, J. C.

Hudson, T.

Rickford, W.

Hughes, Alderman

Rider, T.

Hume, J.

Ridley, Sir M. W.

Hunt, H.

Robinson, Sir G.

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Robinson, G. R.

Willoughby, Sir H.

Rooper, J. B.

Winnington, Sir T.

Russell, Lord J.

Wood, C.

Russell, Lieut.-Col.

Wood, J.

Russell, C

Wood, Alderman

Russell, W.

Wrightson, W. B.

Sanford, E. A.

Wrottesley, Sir J.

Schonswar, G.

SCOTLAND.

Scott, Sir E. D.

Adam, Admiral C.

Sebright, Sir J.

Campbell, W. F.

Skipwith, Sir G.

Dixon, J.

Smith, Hon. R.

Gillon, W. D.

Smith, G. R.

Grant, Rt. Hon. C.

Smith, J.

Jeffrey, Rt. Hon. F.

Smith, J. A.

Johnston, J.

Smith, M. T.

Mackenzie, S.

Smith, R. V.

M'Leod, R.

Stanley, Rt. Hn. E.G.

Ross, H.

Stanley, J.

Trail, G.

Stephenson, H. F.

IRELAND.

Stewart, P. M.

Acheson, Viscount

Strickland, G.

Bellew, Sir P.

Strutt, E.

Blackney, W.

Stuart, Lord Dudley

Bodkin, J. J.

Stuart, Lord P.

Boyle, Hon. J.

Talbot, C. R. M.

Browne, J.

Thicknesse, R.

Browne, D.

Throckmorton, R. G.

Burke, Sir J.

Thomson, P. B.

Callaghan, D.

Tomes, J.

Carew, R. S.

Torrens, Colonel R.

Chapman, M. L.

Townley, R, G.

Clifford, Sir A.

Townshend, Lord C.

Coote, Sir C. H.

Tracy, C. H.

Doyle, Sir J. M.

Troubridge, Sir E.

Grattan, H.

Tynte, C. K. K.

Grattan, J.

Tyrrell, C.

Host, Sir W.J.

Venables, Alderman

Howard, R.

Vernon, Hon. G. J.

Ferguson, Sir R.

Vernon, G. H.

Killeen, Lord

Villiers, T. H.

Lambert, H.

Vincent, Sir F.

Leader, N. P.

Waithman, Alderman

Macnamara, W.

Walrond, B.

Musgrave, Sir R.

Warburton, H.

O'Connell, M.

Warre, J. A.

O'Connor, Don

Wason, R.

O'Farrell, R. M,

Watson, Hon. R.

Ponsonby, Hon. G.

Webb, Colonel E.

Power, R.

Western, C. C.

Rice, Hon. T. S.

Weyland, Major R.

Ruthven, E. S.

Whitmore, W. W.

Sheil, R. L.

Wilbraham, G.

Walker, C. A.

Williams, Sir J.

White, Colonel H.

Williams, J.

Wyse, T.

Williams, W. A.

TELLER.

Williamson, Sir H.

Duncannon, Viscount

The next question was, that the borough of Lostwithiel be a part of the schedule.
Mr. Crokerthought it due to the Committee to say, that, as it had already decided by so large a majority in the case of Appleby, on the principle applied to the remaining boroughs, he should not divide on the question of Lostwithiel. He must,

621
at the same time say, however, that when the Boundary Bill came to be considered, he should avail himself of the opportunity to re-open the question connected with them.
Mr. Custsaid, that the borough of Lostwithiel stood in precisely the same condition as Midhurst, which was now in schedule B. Lostwithiel had a greater population than either Midhurst or Malmesbury: he should certainly, therefore, move, when they came to consider that schedule, that Midhurst be transferred to schedule A.
Mr. Crokersaid, that, if no one else would do so, he would certainly move hereafter that Midhurst should be placed in schedule A. He should like to know from the noble Lord what was the authority for the boundary assigned to Lostwithiel?
Lord John Russellreferred to the authority, which was that of the returning officer, and said, that the Boundary Commissioners had been, after the former Bill was thrown out, deterred from extending inquiries to those boroughs, in consequence of the threats that were held out by hon. Gentlemen, that their authority, in reference to them, would not be attended to.
Mr. Crokersaid, that the authority as to the boundary of Appleby had been just rejected by the House, while the very same authority was that which was now adhered to in the instance of Lostwithiel, namely, the authority of the returning officer. He was at some loss to understand how it was, that the House was called on to accept the boundary given to Lostwithiel, when it had rejected that which had been assigned to Appleby, although they were founded on precisely similar grounds. The first statement with regard to Lostwithiel was, that its limits had been assigned on the authority of the returning officer: that was what they wanted with Appleby. It was next said, the authority was given on the authority of a perambulation: so was that of Appleby. Thirdly, it was said, with regard to the latter place, that it was a burgage tenure borough, and that the boundary had nothing to do with the returning of Members to Parliament; but, in the statement of the case of Lostwithiel, it was observed, that "the exercise of the elective franchise is not connected with residence, or property within the borough." Therefore, it did so happen that this very borough united within itself the three tests which had been just rejected at Appleby.
Lord John Russellsaid, that there was
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this great point of difference in the two cases, which, in fact, involved the whole question at issue. In the instance of Appleby, there were two limits slated—one by the returning officer, and another by the Commissioners. Now, they took the latter, and rejected the former. But in the case of Lostwithiel there was only one stated, and that one was not disputed.
Mr. Crokersaid, he denied the noble Lord's facts: there was no second boundary stated; there were only four supposed boundary stones assigned for the corners of the smaller inclosure, but there was no authority for saying the limits of the borough were to be drawn by straight lines from one of these to the other.
Lord John Russellsaid, the return made by the Mayor of Appleby to the question of how many houses there were in the borough, and the amount of Assessed Taxes, was to confine those particularly within the smaller limits, precisely the same as the Commission included generally in the words, "this is the number of houses, and the amount of the Assessed Taxes within the borough and the boundary stones." Thus, these limits were the same; but the Mayor afterwards made a second return, in which he claimed a larger boundary, whereas, there was no such discrepancy in the case of Lostwithiel.
Mr. Jonessaid, the noble Lord had remarked that the authority of the Boundary Commissioners was to be disputed, because they had not their power from that House; but, he was sure, had the noble Lord and his colleagues desired it, they might have been armed with that power.
Mr. Crokersaid, that he certainly would take the sense of the House hereafter, as to whether other boroughs, which immediately followed in the list, were not better entitled to stand in schedule A than those upon which the House was just deciding.
The question agreed to, and Lostwithiel was placed in schedule A; as was also the question, that the borough of Brackley, in Northamptonshire, stand part of schedule A.
On the question that Amersham be added to the schedule,
Mr. Pigottsaid, as they were now arrived at the last borough of the fifty-six in schedule A, he begged to suggest, whether it would not be preferable to consider the question of the merits of Midhurst, before they agreed to disfranchise Amersham.
Lord John Russellsaid, that the Committee had fifty-six already in the list; but

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if any hon. Member chose to move that other boroughs be added thereto, it was competent to him to do so.
Mr. Crokerwould take the liberty to amend the suggestion of the noble Lord, and move, that the borough of Midhurst take the place of Amersham in schedule A.
The Chairmansaid, the original question was, that Amersham, Buckinghamshire, stand part of schedule A; to which an amendment had been moved, to substitute the words "Midhurst, Sussex:" the question now, therefore, was, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause.
Mr. Drakesaid, the boundary, with regard to Amersham, had not been properly taken: there was a portion of the town certainly within the limits of the borough, but there was still a large portion unjustly excluded. Among the rest, was the district in which the rector's house was situated; and yet, when he held a Court for the purpose of making appointments connected with the borough, it was held in that very house.
Lord John Russellsaid, on looking to the Map, the house in question was at a considerable distance from the town; he must, therefore, contend for the validity of the return of the Commissioner.
Mr. Jonessuggested, that both Amersham and Midhurst should be placed in schedule A, and the franchise of Midhurst conferred on one of the numerous large towns still unprovided with a Representative.
Mr. Pigottsaid, the House had already decided that schedule A was to contain fifty-six places, and the only question was, the names of the boroughs that were to be inserted therein.
Mr. Crokerobserved, that Midhurst had been brought within the line of schedule B, by adding to its limits a large agricultural district; while Amersham, on the contrary, had been pared down to the smallest possible limits, under a pretence of boundaries which were not so well defined as the larger boundary of Appleby, by the perambulation.
Lord John Russellsaid, that, in the case of Amersham, they had followed the principle they had always laid down for their guidance. When they found the boundaries of a borough well defined, they adhered to them; and it did not appear there was any question with respect to those of Amersham.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, the Ministers
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bandied their boundaries about to suit their own convenience, and to obtain supporters, without regard to principle. In one place, they added districts and parishes; in another, they excluded them in the most arbitrary manner.
Alderman Waithmansaid, that his vote would be regulated by one fact: Amersham was notorious as a rotten or nomination borough, and there had not been an election in it within the memory of man.
Mr. Crokersaid, he was indebted to the worthy Alderman for a most admirable speech on his side of the question, for there was not one word he uttered that did not apply with equal force to the borough of Midhurst.
The Committee divided—Ayes 264; Noes 173—Majority 131.
List of AYES, to be added to the List at pp. 618, 619, 620.
[After the first division, twelve Members, who had voted in the Majority, went away, and the following twenty, who were not in the first, voted in the second division]:

Baillie, J. E.

Rumbold, E.

Belfast, Earl of

Russell, Sir R. G.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Stanhope, Capt. R. H.

Duncombe, T.

Shaw, Sir M. S.

Guise, Sir W.

Thomson, Rt. Hn. C. P.

Ingilby, Sir W.

Thompson, Alderman

Lambert, J.

Uxbridge, Lord

Lennox, Lord W.

Wellesley, Hon. W. T.

Loch, J.

Westenra, Hon. H.

Robarts, A. W.

White, S.

The question was then put, that the borough of Amersham stand part of schedule A.
Mr. Crokersaid, there were clearly errors in Lieutenant Drummond's calculations, but it was of no use re-arguing a question that had been decided; all, therefore, that he should at present say was, that in his opinion Amersham and Westbury ought to change places.
Mr. Pollocksaid, that in consequence of what had occurred last night, he had again examined Lieutenant Drummond's mode of calculation with the most serious attention, and he was convinced there was some mistake in it. He would endeavour to prove this by the examples of Petersfield and Westbury in one case, and East Grinstead and Wendover in another. In the case of Petersfield and Westbury, the superiority of the one over the other, was in taxes—of the other in houses. Petersfield paid 540 l. taxes, and had 278 houses. Westbury had 536 houses, and paid 278 l.

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taxes. But Petersfield was lower in the scale than Westbury, and consequently the superiority of taxes did not produce a corresponding effect upon the result. When he mentioned this last night, he was told that it was quite right—that it was intended to give a greater weight to houses. Now let the Committee mark the other case, for it was just the reverse. East Grinstead had 198 l. taxes, and Wendover 198 houses; but East Grinstead was 131 houses, and the taxes of Wendover were 124 l.; and, therefore, East Grinstead in respect to taxes, was as 198 l. to 124 l. and Wendover, in respect to taxes, was as 198 l. to 131 l. But East Grinstead, which came nearer in houses than taxes, was put higher in the list, (that is, lower in the scale). One led to the conclusion that the superiority was as to taxes—the other as to houses. This was the natural result of the arithmetical mean which Lieutenant Drummond had adopted, and which he (Mr. Pollock), upon every principle of mathematics, contended could never be made the medium by which a just conclusion could be formed. It had been said in the course of the last evening's discussion, that the authority of two illustrious names had been given to sanction the correctness of the plan adopted by Lieutenant Drummond. He (Mr. Pollock) was willing to pay great respect to the authority of those names; but he knew that the distinguished individuals to whom they belonged would not thank him for yielding to their authority, if he threw out of consideration the reason upon which that authority was given. He was, therefore, anxious to be informed of the reasons which they had advanced for the answers which they had given to the questions of Lieutenant Drummond.
Lord John Russellstated, that the question submitted to the Gentleman alluded to, was, whether Lieutenant Drummond had given a correct answer to Lord Melbourne's letter.
Mr. Warburtonobserved, that the instructions of Lord Melbourne to Lieutenant Drummond were, that houses and taxes should be taken together. The common interpretation of the term "together" was, that the sum should be taken, not that the two terms should be multiplied together. The course taken by Lieutenant Drummond was the best, and was conformable to Lord Melbourne's instructions.
Mr. Davies Gilbertsaid, that it appeared from the instructions of Lord Melbourne, that each of the two columns were to be equipollent, reducing the fractions to a common denominator, and adding them together. That was what Lieutenant Drummond had attempted; and whatever differences might occur, they would have a very slight effect upon the result.
Mr. Crokerremarked, that only made the sums total correct, but did not affect the parts they wanted to touch. The great fault in Lieutenant Drummond's system was, the application of the rule to the arbitrary number of 100, by which it was rendered impossible to ascertain the value of some of the small boroughs; as might have been done, if a smaller number, or the whole number of boroughs had been taken. It was ridiculous to determine the relation between East Grinstead and West-bury, by the ratio of Pontefract to Malton.
Mr. Stephensonsaid, he must defend the accuracy of the principle of calculation adopted by Lieutenant Drummond. The objections of the hon. and learned Gentleman would apply to the higher mathematics, but the effect of any trifling errors in the present list would not alter the relative positions of the boroughs, or take any away from one schedule to be added to the other.
The question, that Amersham stand part of schedule A, agreed to.
The next motion was, that Petersfield stand part of schedule B.
Mr. Crokerasked where the poll was to be taken in Petersfield, and what was the authority for the boundaries?
Lord John Russellreplied to the second question, the boundary stones. To the other he could not immediately give an answer.
Mr. Sheilstated, that to save time, he would, instead of going on with the Motion respecting the five first boroughs in schedule B, of which he had given notice, move that Petersfield stand part of schedule A, and that 56 in that schedule should be changed to 57. It would save time, because if he were defeated on Petersfield, he would have no chance of succeeding with the other four.
Lord John Russellobserved, the hon. Member could not change the number 56.
Mr. Sheilthen proceeded with his Motion, and stated, that its object was, that the House should have at its disposal a greater number of boroughs for a more

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favourable distribution. What this was he was not bound to show; he had only to contend that Peterstield ought to be placed in schedule A. Amersham stood 56; now what was the difference between it and Petersfield? Nothing to entitle the latter to a representative. Petersfield, which was 57th in the list, had 278 houses and Amersham had 360. Amersham had 101 10 l. houses, and Petersfield 89. If they compared Petersfield with Amersham as to population, wealth, rental number of 10 l. houses, they would find that in all these particulars Amersham had far higher claims to return a Member than Petersfield, though the latter was placed in schedule B, while the former had just been knocked down in lot A. Petersfield contained but 89 10 l. houses, Amersham 101. Petersfield contained but 1,443 inhabitants, while Amersham had 2,015. And the rental of Amersham—that is, the value of the houses in that place—was to the rental value of Petersfield as 7,000 l. to 2,500 l. On what ground, therefore, taking the three tests of qualification in which the present schedules were framed—namely, wealth, population, and prosperity—could it be justified to retain Petersfield in schedule B, while Amersham was consigned to schedule A? He did not wish to rescue Amersham from its fate, but he thought that Petersfield ought to suffer the same. Why was the number of boroughs in schedule A confined to fifty-six? Was there anything cabalistic in that particular number? nothing more than that it was the number which the last Reform Bill contained. But, if that was a reason for confining schedule A to that precise number in the present Bill, how was it that the principle of schedule B had been departed from, and the number of boroughs in that reduced from forty-one to thirty? The House, however, ought not to stay to consider either of these questions; they ought to consider whether the characteristics of a nomination borough were not marked and stamped upon the places which came under review, and, if they were, the House ought to vote in support of the Motion he was about to propose. He might add also, this curious and important fact—that the population of Petersfield, so far from having increased since 1821, had, in truth, decreased since that period, as would be observed upon a comparison of the returns of 1821 and 1831. Under all these circumstances, he
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thought that there could be no doubt that the borough of Petersfield ought to be included in schedule A. If he succeeded in this Motion, he should move to add four others to the same list, but if he did not, he should not trouble the Committee with a discussion upon them. He concluded by moving that the borough of Petersfield be added to schedule A.
Lord Althorpwas free to admit that, so far as the abstract principle of Reform was concerned, his hon. and learned friend's argument was irrefragable. As an honest Reformer, he could not seriously argue the question whether a place comparatively so insignificant as Petersfield should retain the right of returning a Member to that House. But the question then before the Committee, considered in all its relations, was not one of mere principle—it also involved considerations of policy and expediency. It was admitted that, let the number of schedule A boroughs be what it might, it must be in some degree arbitrary—that they must draw a line somewhere, the boroughs bordering on which must appear on the one hand to be unduly favoured, and on the other to be visited with undue harshness. The number 56 was adopted in the present Bill, because on the one hand it was desirable that a less extent of disfranchisement than the former Bill proposed, and which the public sanctioned, should not be effected in the new measure; and, on the other hand, it was a matter of prudence that the success of the Bill should not be hazarded in the House of Lords, by sending up to it a higher number of disfranchised boroughs than was contained in that which they had already rejected. The only way, therefore, in which he could deal with the question was, with respect to the policy of introducing it considered with respect to the measure of Reform itself. He thought, in that view of the question, that it would be most impolitic to increase the number of disfranchised boroughs at the present moment [hear! hear!]. He understood the cheer of the hon. Member, but he should state now, as he had stated before, that it would be more prudent not to create unnecessary opposition to the great measure of Reform, by carrying the principle of disfranchisement further than the list had now carried it. As a mere question, therefore, of prudence, he would oppose his hon. and learned friend's Motion.
Sir Robert Peelobserved, that the

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speech of the noble Lord opposite short as it was, was pregnant with important matter, with matter that excited conflicting feelings—some of alarm, others of consolation. Of alarm, because the noble Lord now admitted, that this measure of Reform was not a permanent and final measure. That it would not be permanent he (Sir Robert Peel) had often declared, and he had now the authority of the noble Lord for repeating the assertion. What did the noble Lord say? That the addition of Petersfield to schedule A was not prudential at the present moment. The noble Lord did not wish to save Petersfield; but thought it would not be prudent at present to extinguish its franchise. What was this but to admit, that the present concession of that franchise was founded on no principle—and was merely a sacrifice to a temporary expediency. What became then of the final and permanent character of the Reform Bill? This was a reflection of anxiety and alarm; but it was attended with a reflection of a consolatory nature. He rejoiced to hear from the noble Lord, that no violent interference with the conduct of the House of Peers would be attempted. Such was the necessary inference from the noble Lord's observation as to the policy of not adding Petersfield to schedule A. If the votes of the House of Peers in opposition to the Bill were to be overborne by a great addition to the Peerage, it was a matter of indifference, whether Petersfield was or was not included in schedule A. As to the very clear and convincing speech of the hon. and learned Member opposite (Mr. Sheil), he begged to say, that with every word of it he most fully concurred. The hon. and learned Member had demonstrated the absurdities which existed in the Bill, and, so far as that went, he (Sir Robert Peel) fully concurred with the hon. and learned Member. He regretted, however, that the hon. and learned Member had not favoured the House with his speech before the fifty-six boroughs had been disfranchised. As to the Motion itself, he rejoiced to find, from the dictum of the noble Lord, that Petersfield was safe, and he should support the noble Lord in keeping it so.
Mr. Stanleycongratulated the right hon. Baronet on these noisy cheers and, he congratulated the hon. and learned Gentleman on the support which the right hon. Baronet had afforded him—support
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that must have made the hon. and learned Gentleman somewhat suspicious of the prudence and propriety of his Motion, which had thus been made the means of of embarrassing the passing of the measure of Reform. This was the second time that the right hon. Baronet, with whose ability to seize a single point, and turn it to advantage, they were all acquainted, had put himself between the two sides of the House to prevent the working of the spirit of conciliation. This was the second time that the right hon. Baronet had taunted them with the concessions they had made. The right hon. Baronet had misinterpreted the speech of his noble friend, who had not said that the measure would not be permanent, or that for the purposes of the present moment it was prudential not to include Petersfield in schedule A, but who had said that, with a view to avoid creating unnecessary opposition to the passing of this measure, he should not wish the introduction of Petersfield into that schedule, though, considered by itself, and without reference to the measure, he was not prepared to say that Petersfield was entitled to send Members to Parliament. On the former occasion, the Government had adopted a certain rule, by the operation of which fifty-six boroughs were to be disfranchised—they had met with opposition to their Bill in the other House—they had been taunted here and there with having adopted the rule of population. They had now adopted that of assessed taxes—they were equally taunted for having done so; but, there was this remarkable circumstance, that the results gained upon employing two different rules were, with a very small variation, the same. The right hon. Baronet had assumed that the Bill would not be permanent; it would be so—and the Government had lent their aid to make it so, by adopting one grand principle, and asking the House to confirm that, and in consideration of that principle to pass over minor details. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman and his party were prepared to compliment the hon. and learned Member, whose proposition so much tended to assist them in embarrassing the passing of this measure. He should not follow the right hon. Baronet in introducing the question of the creation of Peers—he should only say that it was not the wish of Ministers to raise more opposition to the measure than was absolutely necessary.
Mr. Crokerwas astonished at the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, who seemed to accuse them of ingratitude for not receiving as a boon that which both he and the noble Lord admitted to be conceded to expediency. The hon. and learned Gentleman opposite had stated most powerfully the absurdity of the Bill by the comparison he had instituted between Amersham and Petersfield. Though he regretted that his speech had not been made before, the House had decided the question as to the disfranchisement of fifty-six boroughs. The hon. Gentleman had very properly used the phrase "cabalistic number 56," though he must remind him that, that phrase had been first used on his side of the House, and against that measure for which the hon. Gentleman had voted. The noble Lord need not tell them that this Bill was not a permanent measure, that it was but the expedient of a moment, he need not prophesy that it would be but temporary. All were convinced of it, but, he (Mr. Croker) would tell them, that its life and existence would last little beyond this moment, but that its character with the country would last for ever.
Lord Miltonsaid, that the right hon. Gentleman was fond of indulging in figures of speech; and he had only done so in this instance when he put into the mouth of the noble Lord the declaration that this measure was one of present expediency. The noble Lord had never uttered such an assertion. It was the inference which the right hon. Gentleman pleased to draw from the noble Lord's statement, but it was not the statement itself. The right hon. Baronet, too, had found fault with the numbers: he ought to show what number of boroughs should be disfranchised, for even he did not pretend that some Reform was not necessary.
Mr. Sheilwould not press his Motion to a division. He certainly should not have brought it forward, had he supposed that it would have given rise to the present discussion. His great object, however, in bringing it forward was to cut off a certain number of the small English burghs for the purpose of giving an additional number of Members to Ireland. He would not reply to what had fallen From the right hon. Baronet, but merely express his regret that the right hon. Baronet had not thought proper to enlighten the country on the question of Reform, and tell them what boroughs he would
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consent to disfranchise. As the eyes of the public were fixed on him, he thought some such explanation would be better than merely cavalling at details. The hon. and learned Member then said, that seeing the feeling of the House, he would withdraw his Motion.
Mr. Croker: With reference to what has fallen from the hon. and learned Gentleman, I wish merely to say, that whenever I rise to state my opinion upon any question, the House may be assured that I will not change that opinion right round before I sit down.
The original Motion for inserting Petersfield in schedule B, agreed to.
The Chairman reported, progress. The Committee to sit again next day.