Commons Sitting of 15 February 1832

MINUTES.
Bills. Brought in and read a first time; for Regulating the Service of Writs issuing from the Superior Courts in Ireland. Read a second time; Master of Rolls (Ireland). Read a third time and passed; the Cholera Morbus Prevention.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. SPRING RICE, of the Amount of the Annual Gross Receipts, Disbursements, and Nett Balance of the Derwent-water Estates, from the year 1787, to the latest period the same can be made out:—On the Motion of Mr. HUME, of the Number of Barracks in the United Kingdom now fit for the reception of Troops, stating the place where situated, and the Number of Men each Barrack will contain, distinguishing whether for Cavalry, Artillery, Infantry, or Marines.
Petitions presented. Against the General Registry Bill. By Mr. STRUTT, from the Freeholders of Derby By Captain YORKE, from the Owners of Real Property within the East and West Wards of the County of Westmoreland. By Mr. STRUTT, from Owners of Mills worked by Water, and Lace Manufacturers, against certain parts of the Bill for Regulating the Work Hours of Children, and praying that it may be referred to a Select Committee:—By Mr. HENRY GRATTAN, from the Guild of Weavers in Galway, complaining of being excluded from their freedom by the bye-laws of the Corporation; and from the Inhabitants of Granard, for the Abolition of Tithes:—By Mr. HUNT, from the Members of the National" Union at Winchester, against the Stamps on Newspapers:—By Mr. MORE O'FERRALL, from the Trustees and Managers of the Ballynure Savings Banks, for the Amendment of Act 9 George 4th, Cap. 92:—By Mr. SHAW, from the Corporation of Drogheda, against the Irish Reform Bill.

ANATOMY BILL.
Mr. Huntpresented a Petition from certain inhabitants of Blackburn, in Lancashire, praying that the House would not pass what the petitioners called the Dead Body Bill, but what the House called the Anatomy Bill. The petitioners complained of the power given to the governors of workhouses to sell the bodies of the persons who died in those houses; thus making a distinction between the rich and the poor; they prayed that graves might be protected from violation, that means should be adopted to guard against murder for the purposes of dissection, and that professional men should be compelled to account for bodies in their possession. The hon. Member said, that he perfectly agreed in the abhorrence which the petitioners entertained of the proposition for legalizing the sale of dead bodies.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that he had a copy of the petition sent him, with a request that he would support it; but the fact was, that the petition was founded upon a mistake. There was no clause in the Bill empowering the governors of workhouses to sell the bodies of the persons who died in those houses; there was no distinction made by the Bill between the rich and the poor. Indeed he thought the effect of it would be for the advantage of the latter. They were more interested than any other class of persons, that surgeons in general should have the power of obtaining a scientific education cheaply, and they could not obtain the necessary knowledge without every facility being afforded them of examining the structure of the human body.
Mr. Humesaid, that the petition had been sent to him to present, upon which he had written to the petitioners to inform them that they were altogether mistaken upon the subject. They prayed the House to take measures to prevent the disgraceful practice of plundering graves. Why, that was done by the Bill. They prayed the
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House to take measures to prevent murder with a view of selling the corpse for dissection. Why that was done by the Bill. They prayed the House to take measures to make the professors of Anatomy or Surgery answerable with respect to the bodies which might be found in their possession. That was done by the Bill. The three objects which the petitioners especially prayed for were also the objects of the Bill. He was quite sure that the Bill was calculated to effect as much good as it was possible to effect on the subject; and he called on the hon. member for Preston, if he supported the prayer of the petition, to support the Bill also, which embodied the prayers of the petitioners.
Mr. Huntallowed that the Bill professed all the objects described by the hon. member for Middlesex: but would it carry those objects into effect? The Game Bill of last year professed to put an end to poaching. Had it done so? He had last year predicted what would be the result of the Game Bill; he now said the same thing of the Bill under consideration. What could be said in favour of a Bill which gave to a father the power of selling the dead body of a child—which gave to a husband the power of selling the dead body of a wife—which subjected those bodies to the grossest indecencies? [Mr. O'Connell observed, that the chance of such indecencies committed upon a corpse was better than the temptation to murder in the present system.] He did not envy the feelings of the man who looked at the subject with so much indifference. It was quite clear that the Bill gave to persons the power which he had described. None but the poor would avail themselves of that power; and, therefore, the Bill made a distinction between the poor and the rich. The petitioners laboured under no mistake, and he hoped that the House would attend to their prayer.
Mr. O'Connellrepeated, that it was much better to risk the chance of some indecencies being committed with respect to dead subjects, than to risk the chance of the living being converted into dead subjects by the atrocious practice of Burking. He hoped that somebody would dissect him when he was dead. He had endeavoured to be useful while he lived; and he should wish to be so after death. There was no such power in the Bill as that stated by the petitioners.
The petition to lie on the Table.
Mr. Hunt, in moving that the petition

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be printed, said, that he differed from the hon. and learned Gentleman, with respect to the question of indecencies offered to the dead. He contended, that the petitioners were under no delusion with regard to the provisions of the Bill. There was a clause in it which gave power to all persons having legal possession of the bodies of persons who died while in their custody, to sell such bodies, and he apprehended that was quite sufficient to prove that the petitioners had correctly understood the Bill.
Petition to be printed.

MILITIA.
Mr. Huntpresented a Petition from a journeyman cabinet maker, of the name of William Lovatt; stating that having, by industry and abstinence, been enabled to maintain himself and his wife in tolerable comfort, he was suddenly drawn for a militia-man. To serve in his own person would have been utterly ruinous, he had not the means of providing a substitute, and moreover he conceived, that having no share in making the law, he was not bound to undergo its infliction. The consequence of his refusal was, that his goods were sold; and that furniture of the value of 40 l. was disposed of to pay a fine of 15 l. The petitioner's chief complaint, however, was, that his effects were sold privately; and that he and his friends had no notice of the sale, and therefore no means of diminishing its ruinous effect.
Mr. Humesaid, that he had been requested to support the prayer of the petition, and he did so with great readiness. He hoped that it would draw the attention of the House to the present state of the Militia laws. It was notorious that of the persons ballotted in the metropolis, not one in ten was able to serve. It, therefore, became a tax on a poor honest man, which, in many cases, effected his ruin. The rich ought to be called upon to pay this tax, in proportion to their property. This was one of those individual cases of oppression, which made persons who witnessed it complain of the unequal pressure of the laws, and which had the effect of making men dissatisfied with the institutions under which they lived. The towns were in a very different situation from the agricultural population in a matter of this kind. An inhabitant of an agricultural district could leave home for a short time to attend the meeting of the Militia, without inconvenience; but the artizan who resided in a town could not do so. He hoped his Ma-
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jesty's Government would consider the subject. Many cases of great hardship had come to his knowledge, and for those cases there was no remedy.
Petition to be printed.

COUNTY OF CAMBRIDGE.
Captain Yorkepresented a Petition, signed by 1,400 most respectable freeholders and occupiers of land in the county of Cambridge, against the Reform Bill. The petitioners stated, that they viewed some of the provisions of that Bill with feelings of alarm, particularly the arbitrary standard which had been fixed on in reference to the new constituency, which they considered was opposed to all principles of sound policy and impartial justice. They complained that the 10 l. qualification would place the chief power of returning Members in the hands of a class of persons who were not likely to exercise that privilege freely or dispassionately. They expressed great fears that allowing freeholders of towns to interfere with county elections would go far to give them an undue preponderance, and raise the commercial and manufacturing interest, to the depression of the agricultural. The petitioners further stated, that the effect of the Bill would be, to convert the House of Commons into an assembly of delegates, who would be wholly influenced by popular clamour. They were anxious for the correction of every acknowledged abuse, but they deprecated the extensive changes contemplated by the Bill, as dangerous to the welfare of the established institutions of the country. They, therefore, on these grounds, prayed the House not to pass such a dangerous measure. In reference to a part of this petition he begged leave to state, that, during his late canvass in Cambridgeshire, he had not met with a single freeholder who did not object to the 10 l. clause. However anxious the freeholders might otherwise be to see most of the other principles of the Bill carried into execution, they all disliked this clause. Another circumstance connected with the part of the subject was, and he mentioned it as a curious fact, that two petitions, both to the same effect, addressed—the one to the House of Lords, the other to the House of Commons—had been lying for some time for signatures in the county of Cambridge. The petition to the House of Lords received the most signatures; and when those who signed it were asked why they did not also sign the petition to the House of Commons, they answered, that it was idle to petition a House so elected;

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a body of mere delegates, who went to the House to perform certain acts prescribed to them by others, and not to exercise their own judgment as became independent men.
Mr. Adeaneobserved, that his hon. and gallant friend had said that many freeholders in Cambridgeshire declined signing the petition to the House of Commons, because they considered that House as merely an assembly of delegates. He begged to remark, that that description did not apply to the humble individual who was then addressing the House. He would spurn at the notion of being the mere delegate of his constituents. He was a free and independent Member of Parliament; and he hoped his conduct had justified this assumption. As to the opinion of the county of Cambridge at large on the subject of Parliamentary Reform, he was not aware that any change had taken place in that opinion since his hon. and gallant friend had had an opportunity of so unequivocally ascertaining it. He believed that the great majority of the freeholders of that county were as anxious as ever to witness the destruction of boroughmongering, and the distribution of the elective franchise among the populous places justly entitled to the privilege; and also that they were desirous of a large addition to the constituency of the country.
Petition ordered to lie on the Table.
Captain Yorke, in moving that the Petition be printed, begged to be allowed to make a few remarks on what had fallen from his hon. friend. Into those remarks he was forced by the boast made by his hon. friend of his extraordinary independence. A circumstance occurred, however, before the last election, which rather showed a disposition on the part of his hon. friend not to be so perfectly independent. Having been summoned by his constituents, his hon. friend, when called on to state whether or not he liked the Reform Bill, answered that he did not like it much. He was then desired to take it and read it again; after which he said he liked it better. Once more he was required to peruse the Bill; and then his hon. friend declared that he liked it still better, and that, he was for the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill. Nevertheless, he (Captain Yorke) had seen his hon. friend, on one or two occasions, vote against, this declaration; and he knew that his hon. friend did not stand so well with his constituents in Cambridgeshire as formerly. As to his hon. friend's statement, that, he (Captain Yorke) had seen a decided in-
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stance of the determination of the people of Cambridgeshire to support Reform, he appealed to any one, whether, going down as he did, only ten days before the election, to oppose, a gentleman of high character and liberal principles, who, by himself or by his friends, had been canvassing the county for three months, his chance of success was good; or whether his want of success afforded a decided proof of the opinion of the county.
Mr. Adeanehad been attacked so personally by his hon and gallant friend, that he was sure the House would allow him a few words in reply. In the first place, he must say, that the hon. and gallant officer had made a statement, respecting him which was altogether incorrect; but as the hon. and gallant officer was abroad at the period alluded to, upon those who had misrepresented the facts must the blame of this incorrectness rest. With respect to his (Mr. Adeane's) having been summoned down to Cambridge, the fact was, that a county meeting was to be held, and he did what he should ever do so long as he was the county representative—he attended there. There were many opinions as to his conduct in Parliament on account of something he had said upon a petition. He went to the meeting, and asked what charge there was against him, and he then told the assembled county that he was not to be dictated to—that he should ever act consistently with his public principles; but that if they wished to subject him to dictation, they must find some other Representative. It was then proposed that he should not be joined with his noble colleague (Lord Francis Osborne) in presenting the petition, and that proposition was rejected. When that point was settled, he then came forward, and did say; that the more he looked at the Reform Bill, the better pleased he was with it. He was sorry to be obliged to intrude personal matter upon the time of the House, but having been forced into the subject he could not avoid it.
Petition to be printed.

DUBLIN TURNPIKE ROADS.
Mr. More O'Farrellpresented a Petition from the Clergy, Gentry, and other Freeholders of certain districts of the county of Dublin, complaining of the amounts levied as tolls upon the roads in Ireland, such heavy tolls were charged upon manure and various articles of agricultural produce, which were allowed to pass free in England, that they were a great injury to agriculture. These

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evils were aggravated, in the opinions of the petitioners, by the manner in which private bills passed that House. They were often hurried through without those who were most interested having any opportunity to examine into their provisions. This subject had excited considerable sensation in Ireland, and he was prepared to show, at the proper time, that several of the roads could be better and cheaper managed than by the present trustees, who, he had reason to believe, occasionally employed the funds collected more for their own advantage than for the public benefit, by employing their own tenants on the works, whom they paid with tickets instead of money, and to whom they allowed a higher rate of wages than usual, that they might in return charge them with a higher rent upon his holdings. His object was, to ask for a Committee of Inquiry into this subject.
Lord Brabazonsaid, this was a subject which, he could assure the House, required investigation. He was sorry to say, that many very respectable persons allowed themselves to be named as trustees without taking any part in the management of the roads, whereby they became passive instruments in the hands of certain interested persons, who found their own account in jobbing on the roads.
Mr. O'Connellagreed with the hon. Member and the noble Lord, that this was was a subject which demanded inquiry; he, therefore, trusted the hon. Member would appoint a day for moving for a Committee, and he should have his best support.
Mr. Sheilbegged leave to suggest, that the appointment of a permanent Committee on Irish affairs would be found very useful. It would save the House much time to refer many of the petitions, which were usually attended with discussion if presented to the House, to such a Committee.
Petition to be printed.

PRESENTATION OF PETITIONS.
Lord Brabazonwished to take that opportunity of calling the attention of the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to the difficulty, or rather impossibility, of getting petitions presented; he, therefore, hoped that a day would be set apart for that purpose, or some means provided by which the wishes of the people could be known.
Lord Althorpwas afraid that it would be impossible to make any alteration which would suit the noble Lord's wishes. He was aware that, after the business of the night was over, petitions might be pre-
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sented up to any hour. It was true, few Members were in the House on such occasions, but the same had always been found to be the case when a particular day was set apart for petitions. The great number of petitions which within three or four years had been presented to the House, and the discussions which arose on them, had rendered it absolutely necessary to fix some period for receiving petitions; he, therefore, could not see any mode of remedying the grievance, but would be glad to listen to any proposal on the part of the noble Lord.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonhoped the noble Lord would extend the time for receiving petitions. He had for the last three weeks been in possession of a petition, which he anxiously wished to present, but had not been able to find an opportunity. It related to the Excise duties on soap, and, as there was a belief that new regulations were about to be introduced, those interested in the trade were most anxious to have some explanations from Government. He should, therefore, give notice that evening that he would present the petition on a certain day, in order to raise a discussion on the subject.
The Speakersaid, the existing system relative to the mode of presenting petitions did not originate with him, nor, indeed, was there any standing order entered into by the House. There was an understanding, however, on the part of Members, that those Gentlemen who put down their names on the Speaker's paper should present them in the order of their names on the list, and that petitions could be presented only up to five o'clock. Till the House, therefore, came to some new resolution on the subject, he did not see what could be done.
Mr. Geo. Bankessaid, the greater part of the inconvenience complained of arose from the anxiety of the noble Lord and his colleagues to pass the Reform Bill. As to petitions being presented after the debate of the night was over, few Members knew that such petitions had been presented.
Lord Althorpunderstood, that Members on both sides of the House concurred in the necessity of a speedy settlement of the Reform question, whatever their opinions might be with regard to its principles. He felt, therefore, some surprise at the remark made by the hon. Gentleman.

CHOLERA MORBUS—MEASURES OF PRECAUTION.
On the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the House resolved itself into a Committee on this Bill.
Sir William Raewished to know whether any provision had been made in this Bill relative to the expense incurred in the prevention of the disease in Scotland? As there were no parochial rates in that country, he did not see how the Bill could apply.
Lord Althorpreplied, that the provisions relating to the parochial and county rates would be so worded, with respect to Scotland, as to harmonize with the machinery in existence in that country. He was also willing, in compliance with the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet opposite, to omit that part of the clause which would throw the ultimate expense upon the county rates. He was willing also to consent that power should be granted to the Privy Council to reimburse parishes that were greatly distressed, when they had been at an expenditure for the preservation of the public health which they might be unable to afford.
Sir Robert Peelexpressed his concurrence in the communication now made by the noble Lord; but he thought the Privy Council ought not to be restricted exactly in the manner pointed out, viz., rendering assistance to distressed districts only; for he would have the Council authorised to purchase buildings for the purpose of temporary hospitals, in which Cholera patients should be treated; and other powers should also be given, which the Privy Council considered likely to prevent the spread of the disease.
Mr. Warburtonurged the policy of spending liberally at the outset, as likely to be the most prudential course in the end, even on principles of rational economy.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonthought that Government should at once advance loans of money to such parishes as stood in need of pecuniary assistance.
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, that some provision ought to be made concerning those married soldiers who slept from the barracks. There were from 150 to 200 married men in each of the regiments of the Guards, many of whom were living in Spitalfields and Bethnal-green. Now, these soldiers had every day to appear at the parade, and, if the Cholera were to be in the neighbourhood in which they resided, some risk was run of their bringing it to the barracks. He had heard, on his way to the House, a report, which he certainly could scarcely credit, that, in order to remove the married men from London,
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they were to be taken from the four battalions now here, and sent to Windsor. He hoped, however, that no such proposition was to be carried into effect. He would suggest that a sum of money, at the rate of about 1l. a man, which would not amount to more than 600 l. or 700 l. a month, should be advanced to have quarters furnished for the married men of the different regiments. This was a course which would avoid the risk of communicating the infection, should the disease unhappily prevail in that part of the metropolis which he had named.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that the subject alluded to by the hon. and gallant Member had not escaped the notice of his Majesty's Ministers. He had had an interview that morning with the Commander-in-Chief, and he could assure the hon. Baronet that no such plan as that which he had named, as to the removal of the married men belonging to the regiments of Guards now in the metropolis to Windsor, was contemplated. There was, however, a plan very much in conformity with that now suggested by the hon. Baronet, as to the married soldiers being removed from those private quarters, under consideration. Another proposition had been made to hire some public buildings for the soldiers who were in quarters, and appropriate them as barracks.
Colonel Daviesconcurred with what had been said by the right hon. and gallant officer; and he also thought that money should be advanced to parishes, as suggested by the hon. member for Kirkcudbright.
Mr. Huntsaid, that the poor weavers of Spitalfields would think themselves well off, with nothing but the additional money which the hon. and gallant officer had proposed to give the married soldier. He feared that the whole earnings of many families did not amount to 1l. a month. Something ought to be done to relieve the distress of the people as well as the distresses of the soldier.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, that the object of the Bill now under discussion was to afford seasonable relief to all who were distressed, therefore, the extraordinary powers with which the Privy Council were invested would, of course, apply to the Guards in common with the remainder of the community.
Sir James Malcolmsaid, he had unhappily seen much of the dreadful malady called Cholera Morbus, while serving in India, and, therefore, he trusted, he should

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be excused for trespassing upon the Committee for a few minutes. He Legged leave to say, that he had commanded an army of several thousand men in provinces which were never entirely free from that fatal pestilence, for a series of years. He had often and often traversed these provinces in the performance of his public duties, and had invariably found the Cholera to be locally infectious. Such corps as had the misfortune to pass the infected lines, inevitably lost 40 or 50 men by the disease, while not one individual in any of the other corps had suffered from it. He had uniformly observed that the assembling together of crowds of people materially contributed to its progress, and predisposed the constitution to receive it. His policy, therefore, had been, as much as possible, to prevent bodies of people from coming together, and he had consequently, in some cases, interdicted fairs and such assemblages of the people as were found, by experience, to conduce to its extension. The disease prevalent in England at present, he believed, did not correspond in every particular with the Cholera of the East, but it was to be feared that it possessed but too many features in common with that pestilence. The House, at all events, had not been wanting to its duty; he, as well as every other Member of it, would put confidence in Government, and support it in the exercise of extraordinary powers in this great cause of suffering humanity. The less the public mind was alarmed the better, and certainly the timid ought to remember that it was fully proved by official documents that this formidable malady was not so fatal in its general operation as many other diseases to which every one was liable. His plan in the East had been to keep the ravages of the disease, as much a secret as possible; and he had consequently prohibited every soldier from mentioning the very name of Cholera, though they were much inclined to make it a topic of conversation. He wished the physicians to conceal most of the cases, but that system, he apprehended, would not be practicable here. Wherever the Cholera made its appearance, all other complaints were ascribed to it, and thus it became more terrible in name than it really proved to be in effect.
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, in what he had stated he never meant that the pay of a married soldier should be raised, which would operate as a bounty to soldiers to take wives; his only object was, that relief
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should be afforded such as the peculiar circumstances of the case demanded.
Colonel Woodobserved, that a good deal having been said in favour of the married soldier, he wished to say a few words for the unmarried soldier. The Guards in Knightsbridge barracks were packed much too closely. The gallant General (Sir John Malcolm) had said, that in India every precaution which he could take were used to prevent crowds from assembling together, The Guards in the barracks at Knighstbridge were in rooms (without meaning to cast any reflection upon Government) which it was disgraceful to the country to permit. In one room, which had been actually the hay-loft of the Grenadier-horse, 100 soldiers were now crowded together. He believed the room had no plaster round the sides, and no ceiling. The air was so foul that a candle would hardly burn in it. If the Cholera were to break out there, he was persuaded it would run through the whole of the people like wildfire. He thought it the duty of his Majesty's Ministers to diminish the number of soldiers in the rooms where they were so crowded, by hiring other buildings, and having them occupied as barracks.
Colonel Evansregretted to hear so many hon. Gentlemen speaking of the Cholera as a highly contagious disease, and he thought that restrictions with such measures as the Bill now before them would increase rather than diminish the alarm which existed in the country.
An Hon. Memberstated, that he had suffered, last autumn, from a severe attack of Cholera—whether the Asiatic disease or not he could not determine—from which he underwent extreme pain for eight hours. He was inclined to believe, from that circumstance, that the disease had prevailed in this country for many months, and that unnecessary alarm was excited respecting the malignity of the Cholera.
Sir William Raethought, that Scotland if it were to be included in this Bill, had had some reason to complain that it had not been brought in at an earlier period. Delay was much to be avoided, and, it should be remembered that the method of levying local rates was different in Scotland from the method of levying those rates in England. The Privy Council had sent down certain orders to Edinburgh, and it was most, necessary, with a view to the safety of the inhabitants, that these orders should be obeyed; but it turned out that

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many of these orders were contrary to the existing law, and consequently there was no power for enforcing them. The Act of the Legislature was necessary to confer that authority, and it ought to have been conferred before now.
The Lord Advocatesaid, that all the Council were most eagerly anxious to provide a remedy against the spreading of the disease in Edinburgh, and to provide that remedy as speedily as possible; but he knew of no means of carrying into effect the object they had in view but that of providing funds, by giving authority for compulsory assessments, and to that course he understood a long, a severe, and a protracted opposition would be offered.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonsaid, that he was sorry to hear of any obstacles to such a course. He should rather consent to grant authority for compulsory assessments in Scotland, than leave the authorities without the means of carrying into effect the orders of the Privy Council.
Lord Althorpsaid, that it would be useless to give the Magistrates of Scotland the authority to carry into effect the orders of the Privy Council, without the means were at the same time placed in their hands. The bill upon that subject was not yet introduced, and he recommended that the subject of it should not be discussed till it was presented to their notice.
Mr. Warburtondeprecated the course which the gallant Officer near him had recommended. If the publication of what was said on this subject was forbidden, the alarm would become truly terrific, and the most evil consequences would result from it.
Mr. Humewished to take that opportunity of calling the attention of the House and of the public to the evil of collecting large bodies of persons together in a small room at a time like the present. For fourteen or fifteen hundred persons to meet in a small room was a most imprudent thing, and might be the means of spreading infection very extensively.
Sir William Raeasked when the Bill relating to the Cholera in Scotland would be introduced?
The Lord Advocatesaid, he should be ready to introduce his Bill respecting Scotland this evening.
Sir William Raewished that the Government would take measures to bring in the Bill as speedily as possible; because the Ministers must, know as well as he did, that the letter of the law, as it now existed, had been found not to warrant the
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orders they had sent down to Edinburgh, and that several persons had, on that account, resisted the orders, and refused to remove the nuisances.
Several clauses of the Bill were read and agreed to.
On the clause imposing the fine being read,
Mr. Huntagain alluded to the subject of the distress and wretchedness prevailing in Bethnal-green and Spitalfields. Such persons only as were poor and wretched would be likely to come under the penal provisions of this clause, and he, therefore, must express a hope that the Government would assist the people where the distress he had alluded to prevailed, and where the parish funds were too small to enable them to assist themselves. He had that day had a deputation to wait on him from Spitalfields, and the members of that stated, that, the poor-house, which was only calculated to hold 600 people had at present actually upwards of 1,100. The paupers were lying six in a bed; there were forty patients labouring under the typhus fever and no distinct apartment to separate them from other paupers. The parish was so much in debt that the trades-people hesitated to supply the paupers with food. That parish, therefore, was quite unable to meet any additional expenses.
Lord Althorpsaid, that a Gentleman had been sent to inquire into the condition of the poor in Spitalfields, and that it was the intention of the Government to see what assistance could be rendered them.
Mr. Warburtonasked, if any means of disinfection had been adopted by the Central Board of Health. The present practice of sprinkling vinegar was disagreeable and useless. Another method was, that which had been discovered by Dr. Henry, of Manchester. It was established by the experiments of that gentleman, that by exposing substances to a heat of 200 degrees, they might be completely disinfected. He had tried experiments by impregnating substances with the infectious matter of scarlet and typhus fevers, and of the small-pox, and had invariably found that heat destroyed the infecting power.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonsaid, the statements of Dr. Henry on this subject had been referred to the Board of Health; and the gentleman who attended there on his behalf was told that if he would construct his apparatus, and exhibit its effects before the Board, every attention would be paid to the subject. Dr. Henry, or at least the

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gentleman who acted on his behalf, had not been prepared to incur an expense of three or four pounds for that purpose; and he thought, that he could not recommend the Board to incur that expense for that would be furnishing a precedent for similar proceedings hereafter, and the Board would be called upon to defray the expenses of all the experiments to be made by all other persons who were desirous of submitting their opinions on that or any other matters of science to the Board.
Mr. Humesaid, it appeared to him, that if ever there was an instance in which the Board ought to have assisted any person in the expense of experiments, it was this one. He was aware, that the consequence of doing so in one case would be, that the right hon. Gentleman would be pestered with applications for advances for experiments; but Dr. Henry stood before the public with all the recommendations of a well-established character. He was a man of undoubted talents, and of great skill as a chemist. The country certainly was reduced to the adoption of a curious economy, when sinecure offices of five guineas a day were made, and three or four pounds for an experiment that might secure a great public benefit were refused.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the objection to the advance of the money was that which had been already stated. The Ministers were aware that Dr. Henry was a man of scientific attainments, and he was not likely to propose any experiment without strong grounds for believing that it would be successful; but then the hon. Member must recollect that all persons were not like Dr. Henry, and there were many persons who would propose that the Government should incur the expense of experiments that were not likely to be useful. The Government, should it once admit the principle of making advances for experiments, would find it difficult to say to any man before the experiment were made, that he was a man without character, that his labours would be valueless, and therefore they could not with respect to him, go into the expenditure of even a small sum of money.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that there was in his opinion, a marked difference between this case and others of the kind referred to by the noble Lord. In this case the experiments had been made, those experiments had been published; the result, therefore, already known and ascertained, had proved that his plan, if adopted, must be successful. All Dr. Henry wished was, that
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his experiments on the disinfecting power of hot air should be fairly tried, the expense of the apparatus being all that it was necessary to incur.
Mr. Briscoeunderstood, from the remark made by the right hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, that the expense of an apparatus on Dr. Henry's plan, would not exceed 5l. He begged leave, therefore, to suggest the propriety of every parish being compelled to provide itself with such an apparatus.
Clause agreed to, as were all the remaining clauses.
On the preamble being read,
Mr. Briscoemoved, in order to mark and acknowledge the visitations and power of Divine Providence, the insertion of the words, "Whereas it hath pleased Almighty God to visit the United Kingdom with the disease called the Cholera, or Spasmodic or Indian Cholera; and whereas, with a view to prevent, as far as may be possible, by the Divine blessing, the spreading of the said disease."
Lord Althorpsaid, that he would not oppose the motion now it was made, but he thought it would have been better that it had not been made.
Mr. Humesaid, that he would oppose the motion; no reason could be assigned for the introduction of such words that would not apply to every Act they had passed; as, without the aid of that Being through whom they lived and moved, no object whatever could be obtained. Why should they say the Cholera was a Divine infliction? They might as well declare that it was a Divine blessing. He thought hon. Members ought to be satisfied now that a fast was appointed. Let those who were impelled by religious feelings, devote that day to its destined object.
Mr. Hodgeshoped that the hon. Member for Surrey would not persevere in the Motion, as he thought such words should not be lightly used.
Lord Althorpsaid, as there was a difference of opinion on the subject, rather than raise a debate on it, the hon. Member had better withdraw the Motion.
Mr. Lefroyshould lament to see the hon. Member withdraw a motion which he had brought forward with so much propriety. It was only recognising the Divine power, and, he trusted, it was not yet necessary that any Gentleman should apologize for proposing that.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, he thought that the hon. member for Surrey must perceive

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from what had already taken place, the inconvenience which resulted from introducing questions like the present for discussion in that House. Indeed, upon such questions, Members of that House were scarcely free agents; because, if they opposed inconsiderate and ill-judged propositions, imputations would be thrown upon them. It was of no great importance whether the words should be inserted or not, but he objected to the introduction of them upon the general principle, and if no other Member would take the sense of the Committee upon the Motion, he would.
Mr. Shawconsidered the words peculiarly applicable, and hoped that the hon. Member would press the Motion. He thought it inconsistent in the hon. member for Middlesex to refer to the appointment of a fast day as a reason for not agreeing to the Motion, because the hon. Member and his friends did all they could to prevent a day of fast from being appointed.
Mr. Humesaid, that he was as much as ever opposed to the appointment of a fast day. He regretted that Ministers had been weak enough to agree to the proposition. It would augment the evil which it was intended to mitigate.
Lord Althorpagain expressed a hope that the hon. Member would not press his Motion. To have a division upon such a question, whether it should be carried or not, was a thing to be avoided. He felt it necessary to add, that the appointment of a day of fast was not a consequence of the Motion which had been made on that subject. The fast day would have been appointed if that Motion had never been brought forward.
Mr. Briscoesaid, he had not the slightest idea that there would have been a difference of opinion as to the propriety of his Motion. It was allowed, on all hands, that the Cholera was a disease which baffled human skill, and, therefore, it must be considered an infliction of Providence. Under all the circumstances of the case he would withdraw the Motion.
The House then resumed, the report was received, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time the next day, and then engrossed.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—BILL FOR ENGLAND—COMMITTEE—TWELFTH DAY.
On the Motion for going into a Committee on the Reform of Parliament (England) Bill,
Lord Althorpobserved, that he was at
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all times unwilling to propose sitting on Saturdays, and if the remaining clauses of the Bill, without the schedules, could be got through on that night and Thursday, it was not his intention to propose that the House should sit on the ensuing Saturday. Friday was devoted to supply.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, it was of great importance that the Boundary Bill should be brought in previously to their entering into the consideration of the schedules, he trusted, therefore, it would be speedily laid upon the Table.
The House in Committee.
Clauses 62, 63, and 64, were agreed to.
On Clause 65 being read, which limits the time of polling in boroughs to two days,
Mr. Wasonrose to move the Amendment, of which he had previously given notice. He wished that in all boroughs where the registered voters did not exceed 1,000 in number, the poll should continue for one day only. He regretted to understand that he should meet with few supporters, as Ministers were determined to oppose the Amendment; but he must be permitted, notwithstanding, to say that he considered his proposition to be in strict conformity with the principles of the Bill. They had limited the poll to two days where there were 15 or 20,000 voters, which would, he feared, be too short a time to allow all the electors to poll. This was done with a view to prevent those scandalous scenes of bribery and corruption which occasionally prevailed. He would, therefore, ask any hon. Member if two days were sufficient to poll so many constituents, whether one day would not be an ample time to poll 1,000? Every person acquainted with the management of borough elections, knew that it was after the first day's poll upon the number of electors who had not given their votes was accurately known, that the most debasing scenes of bribery and corruption took place. But, perhaps, it might be said, there were few boroughs whose constituency would be limited to 1,000 by the Bill, and, therefore, it was not worth while to legislate upon the subject. He found, however, that of the 160 ancient cities and boroughs which would still retain their privileges of sending Members to Parliament, only eighteen possessed a constituency above that number. His great object by the amendment was to prevent bribery, which he held to be a worse evil than nomination. Considering it a question of principle, he must say, that he intended to call for a division upon his motion.
Lord Althorpadmitted that the amendment was not contrary to the principle of the Bill, but it by no means followed, that it would be advisable to adopt it. Undoubtedly it was desirable that the period of an election should be as short as possible, and it was with that view that the time generally was limited to two days in all boroughs and cities. But as this clause provided that not more than 600 voters should poll at one polling place, if the time was confined to one day where the constituency was above that number, several polling places in proportion to the numbers must be prepared, and this would put the candidates to an increased expense. The hon. Member's amendment went upon the doubtful principle, that it was on the last day's poll, that bribery was most likely to prevail, but in that remark he could not agree. He trusted that the new constituency would be so respectable as not to be open to such a suspicion. For these reasons he must oppose the amendment.
Mr. Wasonregretted that the noble Lord should not assent to his Motion. He must persist however in pressing his amendment.
The Committee divided on the amendment:—Noes 91; Ayes 1; Majority 90.

List of the NOES.

Althorp Visc.

Grant, Right hon. R.

Alexander, James

Grant, Rt. Hon. C.

Alexander, J. D.

Grattan, H.

Bankes, W. J.

Goulburn,Rt.Hon.H.

Bateson Sir R.

Handley, Wm. F.

Bernard, G.

Hawkins, J. H.

Best, H. S.

Heywood, Benj.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Hill, Lord G. A.

Berkeley, Captain

Hodges, Thomas L.

Blake, Sir F.

Hodgson, J.

Blunt, Sir C.

Hoskins, Kedgwin

Briscoe, John

Howard, Phillip H.

Bodkin, John J.

Hume, Joseph

Boyle, hon. John

James, William

Bunbury, Sir H. E.

Jeffrey, Rt. Hon. F.

Burge, W.

Joliffe, Hylton

Burke, Sir J.

Jones, Theobald

Campbell, John

Lambert, Henry

Carter, John B.

Leigh, Thos. C.

Crampton P. C.

Leonard, Thomas B.

Currie, John

Lennox, Lord George

Dick, Q.

Loch, James

Dixon, Joseph

Macaulay, Thomas B.

Doyle, Sir J. M.

Mangles, James

Drake, T. S.

Majoribanks, Stewart

Drake, Col. W.

Musgrave, Sir R.,

Ellice, Edward

Murray, Sir George

Ellis, Wynn

Nowell, Alex.

Ewart, William

Nugent, Lord

Ferrand, W.

Paget, Sir Charles

Foley, hon. T. H.

Payne, Sir Peter

Folkes, Sir Wm.,

Peel, W.

Graham, Rt.hon, Sir J.

Penleaze, John S.

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Pepys, C. C.

Walker, Charles A.

Petit, Louis H.

Warburton, Henry

Price, Sir R.

Warre, John A.

Ponsonby Hon. G.

Webb, Col. A.

Schonswar, George

Weyland, Major R,

Skipwith, Sir G.

Williams, Sir J.

Smith, R. V.

Williams, W. A.

Stephenson, H. F.

Williamson, Sir H.

Strickland, George

Willoughby, Sir H.

Strutt, Edward

Wood, Charles

Stuart, Lord Dudley

Wood, Ald.

Stewart, Edward

Wrightson, Wm. B.

Taylor W.

Wetherell, Sir C.

Thicknesse, Ralph

Wood, Col.

Tracy, Charles H.

TELLER.

Venables, Alderman

Baring, Francis T.

Villiers, T. H.

Waithman Ald.

List of the AYES.

Gisborne, Thomas

TELLER.

Wason, R.

The 66th Clause, which enacts that each person shall vote at the booth appointed for his parish or district read.
An Hon. Memberbegged to ask the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer this question:—Supposing that a borough were divided into two districts, and that an elector had a qualification by freehold in both, in which of the districts would he be entitled to vote?
Lord Althorpreplied, that he would be entitled to vote in that district in which he generally resided.
Mr. Ewartsuggested that the application of this mode of voting to the borough of Liverpool would be very inconvenient. There the practice was, to form the polling place into booths, which were marked alphabetically, and those persons whose names began with A voted in one division, while those names that began with B voted in another, and so on. That practice had been found very convenient in avoiding disorder and confusion. He should be sorry to see the practice altered in that town.
Mr. Wasonagreed with the hon. Member: he had been present at many elections for Liverpool, and had seen 1,500 persons vote in one day at the same place, without the least confusion.
Mr. John Campbellsaid, that similar practice was adopted in the borough which he had the honour to represent, and was found very convenient. He, therefore, urged that the practice should be allowed to continue in those boroughs where it already existed.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, the whole machinery of the clause was only calculated to create confusion. He supposed that in-

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formation of the several places of polling were to be placed on the Church doors, or some other conspicuous place, otherwise he did not understand how the parties interested were to know to which booth they were to go. It certainly, in his opinion would be better to confine the polling to one general place.
Lord Althorpwas convinced that, in large towns, it would be necessary to have several places for polling, and the clerks employed at these places would doubtless be selected from their local knowledge of the electors of their district. If an alphabetical plan of voting was introduced, and only one general place employed, that advantage would be lost. Another advantage was, that by having several distinct places, it would most likely prevent large and tumultuous assemblages of persons
Mr. Schonswaragreed with the noble Lord. He preferred the plan of voting by districts. Where there were only freemen to poll, no doubt the Town Clerk could recognize them with facility, but when there was a numerous constituency of householders, a local knowledge of their persons would be absolutely necessary.
Mr. Goulburnthought that if the plan of voting in districts was adopted, it would be advisable to tell the voter in which district he was to vote, and where the polling place would be situated when he was registered.
Mr. Huntwas fully convinced that it would be necessary to make some provision to acquaint each voter before an election in what place and district his vote was to be taken.
Mr. John Campbellsaid, the precise manner of taking the poll might be left to the discretion of the returning officer; and, as in most of the old boroughs, the great part of the inhabitants were acquainted with the manner of voting in such places, he thought such customs ought to remain, and it would be well to introduce a proviso into the clause to that effect.
Lord Althorpwould give the suggestion of his hon. and learned friend his best consideration, before he brought up the report on the Bill.
Verbal Amendments were made in the clause, which was ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The 67th Clause agreed to.
On the 68th Clause being put from the Chair, which fixes the time when the returning officer is to close the poll, and gives him power to adjourn it in case of riot,
Sir Charles Wetherellobjected to the
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limitation of the duration of the poll to two days. He was fully convinced it would be absolutely impossible in many places to poll all the electors in that time, particularly on the first attempt at a great experimental change, in which the whole system of Representation was altered. The greater part of the first day was generally occupied by the lecture which the candidates gave the electors, or the electors gave the candidates, on their political duties. The latter custom he saw, was getting very prevalent in certain places. This was, perhaps, a very useful practice, and yet this clause would either put extinction upon it, or would limit the duration of the poll to only one day. When the greater part of the first day was thus occupied, he would give the returning officer the power of adjourning the poll to another day. He would, therefore, propose, that after the words "where the proceedings at any election should be interrupted or obstructed by any riot or open violence," the following words should be added—"or delayed by other cause deemed sufficient by the returning officer;" he knew that this was leaving a very wide discretion to the returning officer, but he thought it better that the returning officer should enjoy this discretionary power than that so valuable and ancient a practice as that to which he had referred should be extinguished under our new Constitution.
Lord Althorpsaid, he must object to the amendment. When electors knew their time was limited, they would make arrangements to get through their business in the given time.
Sir Edward Sugdenentertained very considerable objections to the clause. He would beg to ask, how it was possible for any candidate to make speeches and communicate with his constituents at several polling places without at least consuming one day, and a candidate must be constantly present to uphold his friends and prevent reports to his prejudice being circulated by his opponents. Again, the clause said, the poll was to be adjourned in the event of any obstruction, but it was impossible to define an obstruction. Nor did the clause say, that if there was a hinderance to the poll in one district only, the poll must be adjourned in all the others, so that the effect of the clause was to closely limit the time of elections with one hand, and open the door to unlimited time on the other.
Lord Althorpsaid, if an obstruction took place in a town, it would be the duty of the returning officer to adjourn the poll, in

399
all the districts, to a future day; if the same thing happened in a county, the adjournment need not extend beyond the place where the obstruction arose.
Sir Edward Sugdensaid, the explanation of the noble Lord had not got quite over the difficulty. If the poll was adjourned in one place, the electors in that district would know the result of the others, and, therefore, they would have the return in their own hands, so that here was a premium offered for a few electors in one district to make a disturbance, with the certainty that an adjournment of the poll would increase their influence as to the final result.
Lord Althorpsaid, the hon. and learned Gentleman was fond of arguing upon exceptions, but as there appeared some reason in the remark he had just made, he would give the subject his best attention, and, in the mean time, consent that the clause be postponed.
Clause postponed.
The 69th clause, which provides that candidates, or persons proposing a candidate without his consent, should be at the expense of booths and poll-clerks, being read,
Lord Sandonquite approved of the object of the clause, and he thought it would be an additional advantage, if some specific sum was named, that the candidate or proposer must pay previous to the election; this would, in the first place, prevent persons unnecessarily proposing candidates, and, at the end of an election, would prevent any exorbitant charge being made.
Mr. Huntsaid, he objected to the clause wholly; he preferred the ancient and constitutional practice, by which the corporations in boroughs were bound to provide a place for holding the elections, in which case the expenses never came to one-third of the sum charged to the candidates. Westminster was, he believed, the only place where the candidates paid this expense, and that custom was not of long standing. Where the expenses were paid by the returning officer, they did not amount to half what the candidates had to pay.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaw no reason why the expenses were now to be borne by candidates, when they had always hitherto been defrayed by the persons who had the privilege of returning them. He had always objected to such an arrangement. It was notorious that the candidates, where it was the custom for this charge to be made upon them, paid three times more than they ought to pay. There was some
400
possibility of a collision between the returning officers and the builder.
Colonel Sibthorpsaid, this was the only clause in the Bill that he could tolerate. He had no objection to all the first part of the clause, but he could not wholly agree with the latter part of it.
Mr. Humeunderstood, that in some cases the expense of booths amounted to 1,200 l. As long as there were only two candidates who agreed, the expense might be trifling, but a third candidate refusing to enter into a common contract with the other two candidates, and acting in concert with the returning officer, might secure his own election by the expense to which he would be able to put the other candidates. He would recommend that the expense should be thrown on the county or borough which might build booths once for all. The expense for one year might provide booths for twenty years. The noble Lord might be sure that he would not have the support of the gallant Colonel, if the clause had not been calculated to injure the Bill.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the expense of hustings, as compared with the general expense of an election, would be very small, and it would serve as a species of check to individuals who, with little prospect of success, might come forward as candidates, and thus inflict expense on others.
Mr. Charles Rossobserved, that he did not think there was any occasion for the clause, the arrangement had better be left to the persons interested.
Mr. Huntsaid, the expense of hustings might be considered very light by the noble Lord, but such charges gave wealthy persons a great advantage over candidates in humble life, who were unable to compete with them on account of such expenses. There were such things, too, as corporation funds in existence, which were not always used for very good purposes. On these grounds he begged leave to move as an amendment, that all booths erected for county elections should be paid for out of the county rates; and for those of cities or boroughs, out of the corporation funds, if any; and if not any, out of a rate to be collected in the city or borough.
Sir Edward Sugdencertainly thought that the expense ought to be borne by the county generally, if one of the objects of the Bill really was to diminish the expense of elections. It was difficult to know what the funds of a corporation were, without filing a bill in Chancery.
Colonel Davieswas persuaded the clause would open the door to great abuses, and that sums of money might nominally be given for the expense of building hustings, but really for the purposes of bribery and corruption.
Mr. Stricklandsaid, he was also fully convinced that, unless there was some limit fixed for the expense, the charges, particularly in large counties where several polling places must be erected, would be very considerable.
Lord Sandonsuggested, that the expense of each polling place should be limited to 25 l.
Lord Althorpsaid, that although he was desirous to save candidates expense, it was not fair to throw them on the constituent body. If any sum, say 40 l., could be suggested that was not too much, or too little, he was favourable to the noble Lord's proposal of limiting the expense; but 25 l. was too small a sum.
Colonel Woodsaid, the best plan, after all, in his opinion, would be, for each county and borough to erect permanent polling places, the expenses of which might be defrayed by the county or borough, and the candidates charged a given sum for the use of them. This would meet all the objections that had been made against the clause hitherto.
Mr. Humesaid, he very much approved of the proposal for limiting the expense of the hustings; considerable and heavy charges were often improperly made, which prevented persons of moderate means from offering themselves, and thereby deprived the country of the best candidates it could have. Candidates should be encouraged to come forward by all reasonable means. The larger the choice, the better was the prospect of selecting an able Member from among them.
Mr. Sheilsaid, that the 1st and 2nd Geo. 4., commonly called Sir Henry Parnell's Act, had defined the expenses of such buildings in Ireland, and its operation had been found very beneficial in limiting expenses.
Mr. Huntwas quite sure that the sum of 40 l., proposed by the noble Lord, would be the minimum charge, and, in many places where it was now smaller, it would be increased to that sum. He should, therefore, take the sense of the Committee on his Amendment.
The Committee divided: Ayes 4; Noes 154—Majority 150.
Further consideration of the clause postponed, and the House resumed.

List of the AYES.

Hume, Joseph

Payne, Sir P.

James, William

TELLER.

Paget, Thomas

Hunt, Henry

CHOLERA PREVENTION BILL (SCOT- LAND).
The Lord Advocatetrusted that he should be allowed to bring in the Cholera Bill for Scotland to-night, although he had not given any notice. He had intended, in the first instance, to include Scotland within the operation of the Bill brought forward by his noble friend; but as doubts had arisen whether that could be done, in consequence of particular laws prevailing in that part of the empire, he thought it better to bring in a separate measure. The object of his Motion was, to obtain leave to bring in a Bill for the prevention, as far as might be possible, of the spread of the disease, called the Cholera, in Scotland. The general provisions were the same as those in the Act which had just passed through the House, making allowances for the peculiar circumstances of Scotland. Hon. Members who were present in the early part of that evening, were aware of the circumstances which induced him to leave Scotland out of the operation of that Act; but this was a similar measure, allowing only for the difference in the nature of the Poor-laws of the two countries, and also for the difference of legal phraseology. The means of providing the necessary funds were the same in both Bills—namely, by means of a charge in the assessment for the poor. There was, however, a manifest difference between the circumstances of the two countries, although the law, as to a provision being made for the destitute poor, was the same. In England an assessment could be made without any difficulty, as the Poor-laws existed in every parish, and the machinery was, therefore, ready for operation in this instance. This was not the case in Scotland, for in two thirds of the parishes of that kingdom, there had never been a compulsory assessment and collection for the poor, although the law for allowing such collection applied generally to all the parishes. In the Bill which he now submitted to the House, he proposed that the assessment should be made according to the local Acts, in some of the royal burghs and other places, which were governed by such, and exempted from the operation of the general law. He had stated that in a large portion of the parishes, in nearly two-thirds, no assessment for the

403
poor had ever been made, although the laws for that purpose were still in force, and could be carried into operation when necessary. In many of them the Poor-laws had never been introduced, in consequence of the great exertions of the parishioners to prevent the introduction of a system which, they feared, if even brought into operation, might not easily be got rid of. The present, however, was a case which could not be treated in the ordinary way, and which, if anything could, would justify the resorting to extraordinary measures. The House was aware that, by the present law of Scotland, to make an assessment for the Poor-laws valid, it must be agreed to, and settled, at a meeting of the inhabitants of the parish. Now, in case such meeting should not be held, the Kirk Session might order and direct that an assessment be made for the purposes of this Act. He was aware that there existed in the minds of many the strongest objections to the introduction of compulsory assessments into those parishes of Scotland, into which the system had not hitherto been introduced, and no case but one like the present—of sheer necessity—could justify the Legislature in resorting to this course; although, by the strict letter of the law of the land, all parishes in Scotland were liable to this species of assessment. He proposed that leave be given to bring in a Bill for the prevention, as far as might be possible, of the disease called the Cholera, or spasmodic or Indian Cholera, in Scotland.
Sir William Raewould not throw any impediment in the way of the learned Lord; but he trusted that the House would have an opportunity of well considering the provisions of this Bill, and that it would be printed without delay. He could not accede to the course proposed by the learned Lord, and he regretted this the more, as he had wished to avoid discussion on a Bill of this nature. His objection to this measure did not rest on common grounds; he protested against it, as the commencement of a compulsory system of Poor-laws, in all the parishes in Scotland, and which two-thirds of these parishes had made the greatest sacrifices to prevent. The people of Scotland would regard the proposal now made with the utmost alarm, and he trusted that all the Members from that country would be alive to their duties, and oppose the general application of a most objectionable system—a system which, after it had once been resorted to, had seldom or never
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been abandoned. The learned Lord made his rule general, but, at the same time, he exempted those places having special Police Acts. He (Sir William Rae) thought, by means of one or other of these Acts, something might have been suggested to his mind, to have rendered it unnecessary to resort to this system. For instance, before the learned Lord proceeded with this Bill, he ought to refer to the 59th George 3rd, c. 61, and he would there find a much better mode suggested for raising funds. This Act related to the building of gaols, and he would see, by looking to it, that certain sums were to be paid upon lands, according to their value, and upon houses, according to their rental. He trusted that the learned Lord would abandon the idea of having a fixed and compulsory rate levied in all the parishes of Scotland that might be visited by this disease. He hoped that the learned Lord would agree with him, that it was most desirable that whatever measure was introduced on this subject, should prove acceptable to the people of Scotland, and be carried into effect with alacrity; and he was confident that this would not be the case with the compulsory parochial assessment. The utmost consternation would prevail at this measure, for the people of Scotland would regard it as the first step to the adoption of the frightful system of Poor-laws which prevailed in this country. English Members, who were continually witnesses to the evils of the system which prevailed in England, ought to do their utmost to exempt Scotland from a similar curse.
Mr. John Campbellregretted that the learned Lord should have introduced this Bill; for the general adoption of the compulsory system of relief, would work much more evil towards Scotland, than the operation of the disease itself. If once this system was introduced, it would never be got rid of. He knew, from his own experience, the extreme difficulties the heritors of many parishes had had to contend with to prevent the introduction of the Poor-laws into their parishes. There was not a single instance of the system ever having been resorted to by a parish, and afterwards having been got rid of. He trusted that the learned Lord would devise some other mode of raising funds for these purposes, and not impose almost as great a curse as could be inflicted upon their native country.
Mr. James E, Gordonentirely concurred in the observations of his right hon. friend, respecting the evils which might fairly be anticipated from the operation of

405
this measure of the learned Lord. If ever this system was introduced, they would never get rid of the evil it entailed. He trusted that the learned Lord would consider the suggestion of his right hon. friend, as by a measure founded on the principle of that Act, he would be able to carry into effect as much as by the plan he now proposed, and without any of the evil consequences which would attend the proposed measure. The learned Lord had applied the same principle to Scotland as to England, without considering the difference of the circumstances of the two countries. There was another part of this measure objectionable—the necessity of resorting to the authority of the Privy Council, before the Act could be brought into operation. It must be obvious, that this could not be done without considerable delay, as there were several parts of Scotland from which it would he impossible to hear in less than a week. In case the disease should unhappily break out in other districts of Scotland, application ought to be made to some of the authorities in Edinburgh, for delay would negative all the good that could be expected from the plan.
Mr. Dixonentered his protest against resorting to any system of compulsory relief, similar to the Poor-laws; as, in the country parts, the adoption of such a course would be attended with the greatest inconvenience. The learned Lord was desirous of making his measure palatable to the people of Scotland; but the principle of the present measure would be generally condemned. In very many parts of Scotland the most liberal subscriptions had been entered into, to meet any expenses that the case might require; and rather than resort to the system now proposed, the greatest sacrifices would be made.
Mr. Cumming Brucesaid, that those who were acquainted with the operation of the Poor-laws would confess that they were "more honoured in the breach than in the observance." It would not be necessary for his right hon. friend to call upon the English Members to stand by him, and prevent the introduction of this system into Scotland; for, on consideration, the learned Lord would himself see the expediency of withdrawing the present measure. The learned Lord had brought forward this Bill with the most humane motives, and solely with a view to the promotion of the public good; and he trusted, therefore, when the objections were pointed out to him in so strong a point of view, that he
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would consent to re-consider the subject. The learned Lord was correct in calling this the old law of Scotland; but the expediency of applying it in this, or any other case, was more than doubtful. There had been meetings in many parishes in Scotland to consider the best mode of devising means to make provision, in case the disease should appear in them, and they had, with one accord, refused to avail themselves of the Poor-laws.
Mr. James Johnstoneprotested against the general adoption of the principle of the measure of the learned Lord, but would not oppose the introduction of the Bill. It would not be advisable to have a compulsory assessment in this or any other case. The people of Scotland had come forward in the most liberal manner, and contributed most largely to funds for the relief of the poor and diseased. There was not a village in Scotland in which a liberal subscription had not been entered into; indeed, much more generally than in this great metropolis, which would go far to make the learned Lord's measure unnecessary.
Mr. Charles Grantreadily admitted the justice of many of the observations of the hon. Gentleman opposite, respecting the introduction of Poor-laws into Scotland; but, at the same time, every Gentleman in the House must feel that this was one of those extraordinary cases which required an immediate application, and every consideration must yield to consulting the preservation of the people. The suggestion of the hon. Gentleman, as well as that respecting the Privy Council, were well worthy of consideration. At the same time, he was sure that the House would give credit to the learned Lord for the most proper motives, in having originated this measure.
Leave given. Bill brought in, and read a first and second time.