Commons Sitting of 13 April 1832

MINUTES.
Bill brought in. By Mr. SHAW, to provide for
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the better Administration of Justice in the Chancery. Court of Ireland.
Petitions presented. By Mr. SHAW, from the Inhabitants of Anahoe, Cullentra, Dergena, Drumfod, Goland, Lurgacullion, Bockets, Ballynohave, Cranlone, Trillyvannon, Cloghfin, Foremas, Lurganbry, Creagh, Abbey, Strowry, Aghnagar, Altamoshan, and Ballykeele. By Colonel CONOLLY, from the Inhabitants of Derryscollop, Kinery, Tullyrone, Derrylee, Derryene, Derry, Carry, Deryhirk, Ballyreagh, Inishmagh, and East Dereham, against the New System of Education for Ireland:—By Mr. CHARLES TYRRELL, from the Merchants, Shipowners, and Inhabitants of Lowestoft, for the Repeal of the Duty on Hemp; and from the Stoke and Melford Political Unions, against the Friendly Acts Amendment Bill:—By Colonel CONOLLY, from the Inhabitants of Tully, and Aughrish, (Donegal); and by Mr. HENRY GRATTAN, from the Landholders and Inhabitants of Navan, Crossmoline, Collumbkill, Ballycormick, Templemichael, Kentstown, Ballymagarvey, Tryholland, Shrule-Ardeath, Clonalvey, and Piecetown. By Sir JOHN BOURKE, from the Landowners, and Parishioners of Doneraile, to make the Tithe Composition Act compulsory:—By Mr. Loot, from the Corporation of the Royal Burgh of Tain, to substitute the Magistrates of Burghs instead of Sheriffs as Returning Officers on the Scotch Reform Bill:—By Mr. GODSON, from the Freemen of the Borough of Stafford, against the General Register Bill:—By Mr. SPRING RICE, from the East India Company, against the Claim made by Mr. Bury Hutchinson:—By Lord ACHESON, from the Inhabitants of Meigh, for the Repeal of the Tithe and Vestry Laws (Ireland).

EDUCATION (IRELAND).
Mr Shawpresented a Petition from Plymouth signed by 300 persons, twenty-four of whom were clergymen, another from the diocese of Ross in the county of Cork, and a third from the Sunday-School teachers residing in Dublin, against the new plan of Education in Ireland. The last of these was, in his opinion, a most important petition; it emanated from a body of most respectable persons, who devoted their time gratuitously to attendance upon the schools. He had other petitions upon the same subject, but he rose chiefly to notice the assertion made in another place by the noble Earl at the head of the Government. The noble Earl, in quoting the observations of the Commissioners of Education Enquiry with respect to a supposed discrepancy between the number of schools returned to them by the Kildare-street Society and the number apparently in connexion with the Society, according to the Returns made by the clergy said, that, according to the Returns of the latter, there were but 900 schools in connexion with the Society, while that of the former made the number 1,500 who received aid from their funds. This statement was most satisfactorily answered in the Sixteenth Report of the Society, which showed that half the number were not connected with that Society until after the clergy had made their Returns, and the other half were schools which they returned without being aware of the connexion between them and the Society.

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He had stated this to give the noble Earl an opportunity of correcting his mistake which he was sure he had made unintentionally.
Mr. James E. Gordonsupported the petitions, and stated, that he had upwards of thirty petitions to the same effect to present.
Colonel Conollycomplained, that sufficient attention had not been paid by the House to petitions of so important a nature, and which were well worthy its best attention. He most cordially supported the prayer of these petitions.
Petitions to lie on the Table, and be printed.

TITHES (IRELAND).
Mr. Henry Grattanpresented a Petition from the inhabitants of Paisley in Scotland, against the system of Tithes. The petitioners conceived the system, although founded in law, both unchristian and unjust.
Mr. Humesaid, he had been requested to support the petition, which he did with great satisfaction. He rejoiced in having such a proof that the people of Great Britain sympathized with the Irish people on this question.
Sir Frederick Trenchsaid, that, while nine-tenths of the property in Ireland was in the possession of Protestants, the clergy were entitled to their tithes. On this subject he wished hon. Members would give an attentive perusal to a letter of Lord Milton's, which had appeared in the public journals a short time back.
Petition to be printed.
Mr. Henry Grattanpresented a petition from Johnstown, complaining of the exorbitant charges for tithes made in that place, the system had become so oppressive that the inhabitants had been compelled to make up a joint stock purse to resist the demands of the clergy. He fully coincided in the language of a celebrated writer, who hoped that the hatred of the people of Ireland to tithes would be as lasting as their love of justice.
Mr. Shawsaid, that he had no doubt the statements in the petition were much exaggerated. It was notorious that the clergy of Ireland did not receive one-thirtieth of the amount received by the Irish landlords.
Colonel Percevalsaid, he must also oppose the sentiments contained in these petitions. He attributed much of the opposition in Ireland which had been manifested to tithes to the conduct of those in-
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dividuals who had given utterance to sentiments so much admired and extolled by the hon. member for Meath, but which were conducive to the cruel and unchristian consequences under which the Protestant clergy of Ireland laboured.
Mr. Shawobserved, that in one of the petitions, the Protestant clergy were denominated "absentee harpies," and he submitted that the hon. member for Meath, under such circumstances, ought not to press the reading of the petition.
Mr. Henry Grattansaid, he did not press for the petition being printed, but he thought it but right to have it read, and laid on the Table.
Sir Edward Sugdenconceived, that, since it was discovered that this petition had been improperly worded, the hon. Member could not ask that either it or any of those which accompanied it, should be read until he could answer for their contents.
Mr. Grattanmoved, that the petitions be read, and the gallery was cleared for a division. None, however, took place, Mr. Grattan abandoning his Motion.
Lord Althorpmoved the Order of the Day for the House to go into a Committee of Supply.

TREATY WITH FRANCE.
Mr. Robinsonbegged to ask the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whether the Treaty with France relating to the tonnage on British vessels was yet complete as he understood the old duties were still demanded in the French ports?
Lord Palmerston said, the arrangements with France were finally agreed upon, but he was not aware whether orders founded thereon had yet been issued at the French ports.

MADEIRA.
Sir Robert Peelbegged to ask the noble Lord at the head of foreign affairs, whether any information had been received of the blockade of the island of Madeira by a British Admiral?
Lord Palmerstonreplied in the negative.

SUPPLY—MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES
The House in Committee of Supply.
418,000 l. was granted to defray the expenses of the Commissariat Department; and 70,800 l. for the repairs of public offices, royal palaces and gardens, in England and Scotland.
A vote of 7,875 l. for alterations in the Palace in Brighton was proposed.
Mr. Dawsonsaid, he did not then intend to make any objections to the vote, but he understood the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of the Treasury, to say last year, that no vote would in future be proposed without the whole Estimates, particularly for new buildings, being before the House, and as he found the erections for which this money was to be granted, partook of that character, and the whole Estimate was 15,000 l. he wished to be informed how it was they were now called upon for only a part of that sum.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the other part of the money had been voted last year, and this sum would, he hoped, complete the building. It was an erection attached to the Palace for the accommodation of servants.
Mr. Ridley Colbornesaid, as the House was on the subject of public buildings, he thought that a fair opportunity for proposing that a house in Pall-mall, the property of his Majesty, called Dysart House, should be given up for the purposes of a National Gallery. It was at present occupied by the royal collection of pictures, but as they would shortly be removed to Buckingham Palace, a sum of money not more than 1,500 l. would be required to fit Dysart House for the reception of the national pictures, and they really deserved a better abode than they occupied at present.
Sir Robert Peeldid not rise to second the proposition of the right hon. Member, but to make another one, of, perhaps, a more liberal nature. He wished that a definite sum should be especially appropriated to raise a new and suitable building for the National Gallery. This was, truly, a national consideration. The noble collection of pictures which it contained was visited, not only by the inhabitants of the metropolis, but by persons from the most distant corners of the empire, to whom it was a source of the highest gratification. The number of such visitants was upwards of 100,000 in the year, and their convenience deserved the attention of the House. Independently of this consideration, the collection was in itself so fine and so valuable as to deserve an exhibition-room of the choicest construction. It had cost, at least, 150,000 l., of which Mr. Holwell Carr's munificent gift alone was valued at 25,000 l. But motives of public gratification were not the only ones which appealed to the House on this matter; the interest of our Manufactures was also involved in every encouragement being held out to the fine
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arts in this country. It was well known that our manufacturers were, in all matters connected with machinery, superior to all their foreign competitors; but, in the pictorial designs, which were so important in recommending the productions of industry to the taste of the consumer, they were, unfortunately, not equally successful; and hence they had found themselves unequal to cope with their rivals. This deserved the serious consideration of the House in its patronage of the fine arts. For his part, although fully aware of the importance of economy, and most anxious to observe it, he thought this was an occasion for liberality, and, that the House would do well to grant freely a sum of 30,000 l. for the construction of a suitable edifice for the reception of our noble national collection of pictures. He thought the country would be amply repaid if it devoted a sum of 30,000 l. for the purpose of erecting a suitable gallery for the reception of the valuable collection of national paintings.
Lord Althorpagreed with the right hon. Baronet that it was right and fit that a place should be provided for the reception of the pictures, which would be convenient to the public, but he was not prepared to go to any architectural expense for that purpose.
Sir Robert Peelrepeated, that he thought it of importance that immediate measures should be taken for providing a gallery; he did not wish to erect an expensive building, the architectural magnificence of which would be attended with great expense, but merely a plain and suitable gallery, with a proper light to view the paintings with advantage.
Mr. Warburtonconcurred in the opinion expressed by the hon. Baronet. He had no doubt it would tend materially to an improvement in our manufactures; and he thought that the expense incurred would be paid over and over again by the advantages derived by the country. He would have no old house selected, but a plain gallery built expressly for the purpose.
Lord Duncannonreadily admitted that the present building in which the paintings were exhibited was in a state of insecurity; but he feared that Dysart House was not in a much better state of repair.
Lord Ashleyobserved, that the patronage of works of science and art, such as the calculating machine of Mr. Babbage, had collateral advantages. Some improvements in machinery had lately taken place in Glasgow from the contemplation of that

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machine. He considered that the erection of a gallery would be extremely beneficial for artists and mechanics to resort to, and he had reason for believing that it would be frequented by the industrious classes, instead of resorting to alehouses, as at present.
Sir Frederick Trenchconsidered, that, instead of expending large sums on Buckingham Palace, it would have been better to have adopted his plan for converting it into a national museum or gallery. He had recently inspected the building, and he felt assured it would never be fit for the reception of the King and Queen, until the whole of the houses forming Stafford-row were pulled down. The building contained a gallery, which, with very little trouble, might be formed into one of upwards of 500 feet in length, and, both in extent and beauty, would excel that of the Louvre.
Mr. Humethought, that the greatest advantages might be gained in the improvement of our manufactures, and at very little expense. There was only one man at Coventry who was at all proficient in forming designs for silks, and we had invariably to copy from foreigners in articles of taste, although our machinery was so far superior. At Lyons there was a School of Design, with numerous students, entirely for the purpose of improvement in patterns and articles of taste. Hence the superiority of the French in this respect to our manufacturers. He, therefore, was an advocate for the nation to erect a proper building, and he thought such a one could be had without putting the public to any expense. There were large sums of money spent annually for keeping palaces in repair which were not used for the royal accommodation, but for that of individuals. Hampton Court, for instance, had cost, in the last four years, upwards of 19,000 l. for repairs, and it was occupied by forty-four persons who had no claim upon the public; that sum might be saved and appropriated to the erection of a gallery, and the palace pulled down. Then, again, large sums were devoted to the maintenance of Kensington Palace and Windsor Great Park. He had no objection to the Duchess of Kent and the Duke of Sussex residing in Kensington Palace, but he was informed that one whole wing of the palace was occupied by a Mrs. Croker, which portion was formerly the residence of the late Queen Caroline.
Mr. Spring Riceobserved, that all the
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sums alluded to by the hon. member for Middlesex had been discussed over and over again, and disposed of on previous votes. By the junction of the office of Surveyor of Works to that of the Woods and Forests, a very considerable saving would be made, prospectively amounting to 12,000 l. per annum. As to the expenses of Buckingham Palace and Windsor Castle, these had been submitted to Committees, and there was not the slightest inclination to any excess of the Estimates. With reference to the apartments occupied by Mrs. Croker, the hon. Member was quite misinformed as to the space occupied by that lady, as she had only four rooms, and those of very confined dimensions.
General Stephensonsaid, as the hon. member for Middlesex had made some remarks relating to the expenses of Hampton Court Palace, he was anxious to state, that no part of them were attributable to his Royal Highness the Duke of Sussex, who was Ranger of the Park.
Mr. Humesaid, he had not the most remote intention to throw any reflections upon the Ranger of Hampton Court Park. No man had a greater respect for the Duke of Sussex than he had, but, he must say, that, if they were called upon, every day almost, for money to build new palaces and repair old ones, there would be no end to expense; it would certainly be better to pull down those old palaces which were not used for royal accommodation, several of them were little better than barracks for destitute persons, and those not always selected from the most deserving.
Sir Robert Inglissaid, he could not allow the hon. Member's remarks to pass without observation. He hoped both he and the House would refer to the returns relative to the hereditary revenues of the Crown, by which it was evident the public had gained no less a sum than 29,000,000 l. by the bargain relative to the Civil List. He begged to ask, whether, after this liberal conduct from the Monarch, it was right that he should be denied a few thousand pounds annually to keep his palaces in a proper state of repair? He thought that, with respect to Hampton Court Palace, the expenses were small; and that building was so associated with the best passages in the history of the country that it ought to be preserved.
Mr. Gally Knighthad also heard with much regret the remarks of the hon. Mem-

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ber relating to the royal palaces. In France, even since the Revolution of 1830, the whole of the palaces were left at the disposal of the citizen king, and would the hon. Member be less liberal than our neighbours were in that respect, sweeping away all the historical recollections connected with our ancient buildings, and reducing this country to the condition of the United States? Then, again, he had proposed to turn the inmates of these palaces out, but did he think poverty was less pinching to them who had seen better days? With regard to the question more immediately before the House, relating to a picture gallery, he rejoiced that the proposition had been so favourably received, and he hoped Ministers would not be slow in acting upon it.
Mr. Humesaid, he believed the hon. Member was incorrect with regard to the royal parks and palaces in France. He believed some part of the domains had recently been ordered to be sold by the legislature, and he still thought it objectionable that apartments should be assigned to individuals in palaces. If a person in the middle walks of life fell into poverty, his relatives were compelled to support him; but the country was to be saddled with the expense of keeping the relatives of a great man, according to the hon. Member's doctrine.
Vote agreed to.
As were votes of 5,688 l., for the repairs of Portpatrick harbour; of 5,000 l., for Donaghadee harbour, and of 5,918 l., for the repairs of Holyhead and Howth roads and harbour.
On the sum of 10,000 l., to defray the expense of the new buildings at the British Museum, being proposed,
Mr. Ridley Colbornesaid, there had recently been some discussion in the public prints relating to one of Cleopatra's needles, as they were called, one of which, he understood, had been presented to the country as a trophy of the victories obtained by our army in Egypt. He wished to know if there was any hope of having the monument brought to this country?
Lord Althorp,in reply, stated, that one of the obelisks, called Cleopatra's needles, had been given by the Egyptian government to the French, who were making preparations to bring it away, and the subject had been under his (Lord Althorp's) consideration, because it was a good opportunity to bring away the other, which had been given to us. With that view he had made inquiry as to the probable expense of
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the conveyance, and he understood the estimate was 15,000 l. He owned he had hoped a less sum would have been sufficient, but the House must be aware that the carrying away an obelisk sixty-seven feet long, and 248 ton weight, must be expensive. But as the same machinery would serve for both, he thought it might be arranged so as that the French government would bear half the expense.
Mr. Humesaid, that a large sum of money had been subscribed by the troops and seamen employed in Egypt towards the expense of removing this relic of antiquity. This sum amounted, he believed, to 7,000 l., and had been lying in the Treasury for years. He thought it might be removed for much less than the sum stated by the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer; by remaining where it was, it was subject to be, and he had heard that it had been, mutilated.
Sir George Clerksaid, he must also express his very great gratification that there was at length an intention to bring the obelisk to England. It was a disgrace to the country that it had so long been neglected.
Lord Althorpsaid, as there appeared to be a general wish to have this great work of art brought home, he could assure the House that he would not lose sight of the subject.
The Resolution agreed to, as were the following:—
50,000 l. for repairs and alterations of Windsor Castle.
9,500 l. for the erection of a State Paper Office.
6,000 l. for the worts at the College of Edinburgh.
14,514 l. for the salaries of the officers of the Houses of Lords and Commons, pensions of retired officers of both Houses, and a sum in aid of the Fee Fund.
15,300 l. for expenses of the Houses of Lords and Commons.
38,200 l. to make good the deficiency of the Fee Fund for the department of the Treasury.
13,900 l. for the deficiency of the Fee Fund for the department of the Home Secretary of State.
16,895 l. for the deficiency of the Fee Fund for the department of the Foreign Secretary of State.
14,930 l. for the like purpose, at the Colonial Office.
17,504 l. for the like purpose, at the Council Office.
2,000 l. for the Salary of the Lord Privy Seal.
9,400 l. for contingent expenses, and messengers' bills of the Treasury department.
8,460 l. for contingent expenses, and messengers' bills of the Home Secretary's Office.
On the Resolution for granting 47,750 l. for contingent expenses and messengers' bills in the department of the Foreign Secretary of State,
Mr. Humeobjected to the large amount of this vote, it appeared an enormous sum to pay for messengers. He wished that they should retire from interference in foreign affairs, instead of which the Ministers were apparently more deeply involving the country in them daily.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that the expense had been incurred by endeavours to maintain the peace of Europe, and not for any improper interference. If the hon. Member considered the state of the continent during the last year, he would find enough to account for the charge; besides, the expenses of the Foreign Office had been very materially decreased by his noble friend at present at the head of that department. In 1831, the expenses had been less than in the year before by 66,500 l., and in the present year they had been further reduced 32,000 l., making a total saving of 98,500 l. Even the late Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had made reductions to the extent of 34,000 l., this curtailment reflected great credit upon both parties.
Mr. Wranghamsaid, a part of the reductions made by the present Foreign Secretary ought to be placed to the credit of the last, as important savings were in progress when he left that department, and it was clear such diminutions of expense could only be effected gradually. As to the expense of messengers, he could state the greatest economy was practised in that respect when he was connected with the Foreign Department.
Mr. Huntsaid, he must complain of the absence of the noble Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. The noble Lord was so seldom in the House that he thought it might be better to throw a little salt upon his tail; besides be could not refrain from alluding to the fact, that whenever large sums of the public money were voted away very few Members were present. On the present occasion a sufficient number were not present properly to constitute a legal House. He did not mean to be offensive.
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He did not intend to call the attention of the Chairman to the circumstance, as he thought he should not effect any good purpose by it. He despaired of economy being practised, until they got a Reformed Parliament. When they did get it, he sincerely hoped that a different system to that now pursued in the voting the public money away would be pursued.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the hon Member's reproach applied to himself, for he had been absent during several of the votes.
The Resolution agreed to, as were the following:—
5,055 l. for contingent expenses, and messengers bills in the department of the Secretary of State for the Colonies.
1,750 l. for contingent expenses, and messengers' bills in the department of the Privy Council.
On the Resolution for 5,400 l. for the expense of messengers attending the First Lord of the Treasury and Chancellor of the Exchequer, and allowances to officers of the Court,
Mr. Huntsaid, that here was a sum of money demanded for the expense of messengers who attended on those noble Lords amounting to nearly as much as the salary of the President of the United States of America.
Mr. Humewished to know how it was, that the increase took place in this item for this year, when the vote of last year, under this head, was only 2,000 l.? The sum now demanded was 5,000 l. for the five quarters.
Mr. Hunt: So much for the economising and retrenching Government.
Mr. Spring Ricewas obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his expression of "an economising and retrenching Government." To show that the present Government deserved the character which that expression implied, he would only state, that the sum voted for these Estimates last year amounted to 2,284,000 l., from which sum the Government had been able to make reductions for the present year to the amount of 519,375 l. The reason this item was larger this year, was, that he had last year taken too small a vote to meet the expenses of this office. The sum now asked was to meet the deficiency of last year and to provide against any arrear for the future. He was ready to go into a vindication of every item proposed; and he felt confident that the present Government had, with regard to these, and every other Estimate,

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done all they could to entitle them to the character of an economizing and retrenching Government.
Vote agreed to.
The next item proposed was the sum of 958 l. to defray the expenses of the salaries of certain Professors at the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, for lectures delivered by them.
Mr. Huntobjected to this vote. He did not see why the labouring and working classes of this country should have to pay Professors at the Universities to instruct the sons of the Aristocracy of the country. He had made the same objection last year, but had been told by the noble Lord, the member for Northamptonshire, that the humbler classes had been much benefitted by the discoveries of scientific persons. He had since found, however, that the greater part of the improvements in machinery had been made by mechanics and not by Professors.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, if the hon. Member brought the same objection now as he had done on a former occasion, the hon. Member would of course receive the same answer; he must deny, however, that this sum was given to teach the sons of the Aristocracy alone. Many highly talented individuals had received their education at the Universities, who had sprung from the humblest classes in life. They had had the benefit of this vote, not to speak of the other charitable foundations in the Universities.
Mr. Humethought that the Universities would consult their own dignity more by supplying this sum out of their own ample resources, instead of taking it out of the pockets of the people. There were Colleges in both these establishments, he understood, which had 4,000 l. or 5,000 l. a-year revenue. He was surprised, therefore, that they should sue for such a paltry sum as 958 l., particularly in the present state of the Country.
Mr. Estcourtagreed with the hon. member for Middlesex, that this was a paltry proceeding. It was paltry on account of the smallness of the sum voted. It was miserable to think that a country like England should only grant 958 l. towards the support of her Universities. With respect to the appropriation of College revenues, the hon. Member ought to know they could not be diverted from the purposes for which they were bequeathed.
Mr. Sheilobserved, that in England, a rich country, the Professors at her Uni-
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versities were paid by the State, while in Scotland, a poor country, the Professors were paid by the students in the shape of fees; but he rose chiefly to ask, how it was, when such grants were made to the English Universities, the grants to the Dublin Society for its Professorships had been reduced?
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he knew, that at Cambridge, fees were paid by the students who attended the lectures, and they were apportioned to the rank of the parties—a Sizar paying the smallest fees. The hon. and learned Member was also mistaken in supposing that the Scotch Universities were wholly maintained by fees, for he had, in his official capacity, recently remitted 800 l. to the University of St. Andrew's. With respect to the grant made to the Dublin Society, it was found that the State paid everything, and the inhabitants nothing. Ministers were willing to continue the grant upon its being shown by the Dublin public that they were so anxious for these lectures as to be disposed to pay a small part of their expense, and he was happy to say, that such an arrangement was likely to be made.
Mr. Wilkessaid, his objection to the grant rested upon the facts that the Dissenters, and others who paid taxes, were excluded from the Universities, and that both the King's College and the London Universities supported their Professors by the fees of students, or the liberality of the founders. Besides, he believed, the lectures at Oxford and Cambridge were mere matters of form. He protested against such a grant, which every man attached to religious liberty ought to oppose, until all classes, whether Dissenters or Catholics, had an equal claim on all the benefits of the Universities.
Mr. Wranghamsaid, the hon. Member had opposed the grant on account of an exclusive system being in force at the Universities, and that all classes equally paid the tax; but did the hon. Member who was so much attached to religious liberty, recollect there was such a thing as a grant to Maynooth College, and another in. the shape of a Regium Donum, to the Presbyterian ministers? He supported the grant upon account of the advantages which resulted to science from such encouragement being held out to Universities in all parts of the empire, and on account of the connexion this established between the State and those learned bodies. When be heard it was paltry for the Uni-

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versities to come a begging, he said it was a wretched and miserable spirit of retrenchment which would put a stop to such a grant as that before the House.
Mr. Humesaid, the ground of his opposition to this vote had been mistaken. He did not oppose it because he thought that science received no benefit from it; but he said it was a reproach to those Universities, with their ample funds, to ask the country for this contribution. If he was satisfied that their incomes were not sufficient, he should say nothing, but they had refused all kinds of inquiry into their present condition, and refused to produce their accounts, although it was a principle established with all other societies, that, when they received the public money, they were bound to show their condition, and prove that their income was not equal to their expenditure.
Sir John Bourkesupported the grant with much pleasure, and he never thought of inquiring into the religious tenets of those who received the money. It was sufficient for him to know it was intended to be applied to the purposes of scientific and moral education.
Sir Robert Inglisbegged leave, in the few remarks he had to make on this subject, to address them to the hon. member for Middlesex, as he had the reputation of closely examining all money questions that came before the House. He put this grant to him on the score of economy, as the University of Oxford alone contributed to the revenue in the direct shape of Stamps for degrees conferred, more than six times the sum given her for the encouragement of learning. He was ashamed to bring such an argument forward, for he felt the grant could be justified on much higher grounds. He thought the hon. Member's own experience at the London University would have taught him that a considerable sum of money was required by the Professors to furnish materials for experiments. The sciences taught by the Professors, for whose benefit this grant was intended, were not necessarily connected with a University education, and they, therefore, more particularly demanded the support of the public at large.
Mr. Humewas glad the hon. Baronet had brought into his recollection the sordid conduct of the University which he represented: the London University established fourteen Professorships, and hoped to obtain a Charter by which they could confer degrees, but the University of Oxford
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entered its caveat, and stopped it, on the ground of its interfering with such emoluments as the hon. Baronet had taken credit for, so that they were determined nobody but themselves should have the advantage of paying Stamp duties. But the utter fallacy of this Stamp argument of the hon. Baronet was apparent. According to his doctrine, every Corporation which admitted freemen and thereby paid Stamp duties, ought to be supported by a grant of public money.
Mr. Huntcertainly thought it was a disgrace to such wealthy establishments to claim such a pitiful sum. Besides, he suspected there was some job connected with it, for he observed there was 59 l. charged as fees upon the 900 l. Like the hon. Member for Middlesex, he would have made no objection to the grant if the accounts of the Universities had been on the Table, and it could be shown that they had occasion for the money; but, as it was, he was determined to take the sense of the House upon the question.
Sir Robert Inglissaid, the hon. Member did not seem to know the origin of the grant, therefore he would tell him that it was originally granted out of the hereditary revenues of the Crown by the Monarch for the encouragement of science and learning, and when the hereditary revenues were commuted for a sum called the Civil List, the grant necessarily appeared as a Parliamentary allowance, although it was in fact given by the Monarch. It was one item of that bargain from which the public had profited so largely, as he had already explained.
The Committee divided on the vote: Ayes 72; Noes 9—Majority 63.
Vote passed.
13,680 l. 10 s. was voted to defray the charges of the Insolvent Debtors' Court.
2,092 l. 5s. was proposed to defray the expenses of the Alien Office.
Mr. Humesaid, they had no occasion to be afraid of foreigners in the present state of Europe, and he did hope that a Whig and liberal Government would put an end to this expense; there had of late been instances—he alluded to the treatment of a Polish nobleman in Dublin, as stated in the newspapers—where the machinery of this office was disgracefully employed.
Mr. Spring Riceassured his hon. friend, that there were applications made to the office quite unconnected with politics, which made it desirable that it should be kept up.
Vote agreed to.
On the Resolution granting 24,287 l. for the expenses of the Penitentiary at Milbank,
Mr. Humewished to contrast the expenses of this establishment with one in America, in order to show the Committee what a waste of public money took place. In Maryland, there was an institution of this sort, in which 435 persons were confined, which, after paying all its expenses, returned an income to the State of 10,000 dollars. Look at the one, then, before the House, which cost 7,250 l. per annum in salaries to officers alone. The governor received, besides his half-pay of 136 l., a salary of 600 l., making 736 l. for a keeper of convicts. A chaplain had 400 l., which was a monstrous amount, even if he did duty three times a day. How many curates were there that performed the duties of large parishes for 150 l.? A surgeon had 300 l. Surgeons in the army, when in full action, did not receive so much. A medical superintendent received 300 l., making altogether 600 l. for medical attendance, which was more than was paid for a regiment, or the largest ship of war. Next came a secretary with 400 l. a-year, and a steward with 200 l., to keep the accounts of this excellent institution, which ought to be managed for a quarter of the sum. A schoolmaster had 100 l.; he had no very great objections to him, although he could obtain plenty from his own country for half the amount. Next, there was the governor's clerk, who received 150 l. a-year. Four task-masters 240 l., and four assistant task-masters 60 l., as if some of the convicts could not be selected for those duties. Twenty wardens were engaged at 50 l. a-year each, to take care of 600 convicts, in a strong building, surrounded by a high wall, which no one could scale. Then came four infirmary wardens, at 50 l. a-year, and a baker at 60 l. He supposed the bakers in the metropolis were so honest, that not one of them was in the Penitentiary as a convict, where he could be employed in his trade. Two cooks at 100 l. a-year, as if none of the prisoners could cook their own provisions. Two millers at 100 l. a-year. Then came two messengers at 50 l. a-year; for the authorities in this place must ape their betters. Next came seven wardens at 50 l. a-year each, to take care of the females, besides two nurses and another cook. He next came to the manufacturing department, where he found a master manufacturer at 200 l. a-year, two clerks at 170 l.,
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and a warehouseman at 70 l. What did the House think of that array, when they knew that the experiment which the establishment had intended to try had failed? He thought these items showed that there was a most shameful expenditure of the public money. Each individual confined cost the public 35 l. a-year. The expense of this establishment exceeded that of any nobleman's in the country. "Sir," said the hon. Gentleman, "why not send these females to our colonies? The colonies want women. I am sure that the ladies in the Penitentiary would be very happy to supply this important deficiency. Send these women out, Sir, to the colonists, and you will confer a great benefit upon all parties."
Mr. Spring Ricewished the House to keep the origin of this establishment in recollection. It did not originate with the Government, but was recommended by a Committee of the House, appointed to inquire into the subject, and was under the supervision of the Committee appointed by an Act of Parliament, selected from persons most conversant with the subject. It was utterly impossible to discuss the subject apart from the great question of secondary punishments. He was ready to agree with the hon. Member, that it might be of advantage to give a supply of women to the colonies, but there were difficulties in the way of carrying that measure into effect. Gentlemen complained of the expense of this establishment, but he could assure them that it was conducted as economically as possible, although the establishment was calculated for a larger number of prisoners than was at present within it. The building would contain 1,000 or 1,200 persons. An effort was made to obtain a saving in the article of food, which produced a dreadful malady attended with a great loss of life, and the hon. Member must recollect that it was explained before the Committee that a better quality of food was required for persons in confinement than for those who were at large. As to the array of officers which his hon. friend had enumerated, he would not go through them in detail, but would select one for illustration—the chaplain, who was said by his hon. friend to be so monstrously overpaid. He trusted the Committee would bear in mind, that few clergymen who were well calculated for the office would like it, when their ministry was confined to convicts, and their place of residence a prison.
Mr. Dixonsaid, the case of the chaplain might, perhaps, be defended, but there was a host of other officers apparently useless. He was, therefore, convinced some further inquiry was necessary into the whole management of the establishment.
Mr. Sheilsaid, he did not think the case of the chaplain could be defended. No chaplain to a Gaol in Ireland had more than 120 l. a-year, although some of them, in Dublin, for instance, had nearly as much work to do as the chaplain to the Penitentiary with 400 l.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he had already remarked, that the salaries were calculated on the supposition of the prison being full of convicts, but at present there was not more than 538 persons within the walls, although the building would hold twice that number. Consequently the salaries were too high at present. As to the chaplain in Dublin, he attended the Gaol on Sunday, and once in the course of the week, and for that he received 120 l., whereas the chaplain at the Penitentiary was in constant attendance; and when the number of persons each of those gentlemen had to attend was considered, he did not think the proportionate increase of the salary of the one, as compared with the other (supposing the Penitentiary was full), was more than was proper, but he was not attempting to defend the salary of 400 l. under existing circumstances, because he thought it too great.
Sir Robert Inglisobserved, that, looking to the amount of duty expected from the chaplain, the close confinement and the constant attention required, together with the exemplary manner in which the present chaplain performed his duties, he could by no means consider him overpaid even with the present number of prisoners.
Sir Thomas Freemantlehad not expected this vote to come under the consideration of the House, or he should have been better prepared to speak upon it; but, although he was taken by surprise at the question being brought forward, yet he was by no means surprised at the speech of the hon. member for Middlesex, for he had, on a former occasion, made the very same observations. He had resumed his favourite subject, namely, the high salaries of officers. He wished he would be induced to visit this establishment once, and examine what the system in the Penitentiary really was, as he felt quite sure that, if he were acquainted with all the details of the establishment, he would find that there
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was great labour in carrying the discipline into full effect; and that, expensive as the establishment undoubtedly was, no more was expended than was absolutely necessary. Such an inquiry, he had no doubt, would incline the hon. Member to agree in the opinion expressed by the Committee in favour of the continuance and maintenance of this establishment. That it should be maintained altogether in the manner it now was he did not wish; as it certainly did not altogether answer the purpose for which it was intended, because the establishment was not full, neither was due discrimination used in selecting proper objects for it. Subject to these qualifications, he was prepared to say, that the establishment was an useful one; and he felt assured that, when the Report of the Committee was laid before the House, it would completely bear out what he had said on this subject. The attention of the House, and of the country in general, had lately been particularly directed to the subject of secondary punishments—a subject not inferior in importance to any which had for some years occupied the attention of this House. He believed it was the prevailing opinion that the only mode to be adopted was that of solitary confinement for a short period with hard labour; and there was no way of carrying that into effect without the Penitentiary system. Were this system adopted, he was quite certain that, in the course of twelve months, they should have occasion to build more such places. He was aware that considerable alteration might be beneficially made in the system pursued at the Milbank Penitentiary: solitary confinement had been carried into effect more extensively than was originally contemplated. The classification of the prisoners with reference to that subject had been entirely abolished; the consequence was, that the prisoners were kept strictly in their solitary cells, working by themselves, and only meeting their fellow prisoners in their walks round the yard. With regard to the advantages to be derived by individuals confined in this establishment, it was sufficient to refer to the annual returns, by which it would be ascertained, that, of the number of persons who went out of the establishment, two-thirds turned out well, and were able to bring proper testimonials of their good behaviour, in order to receive the gratuity which was given to those who led correct lives during the first twelve months after their discharge. These gratuities were never given but upon the

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best evidence of the good character of the party. With respect to the salaries of the officers, undoubtedly they were very high; but when it was considered that they were called upon to devote the whole of their time and attention to this establishment, and the extreme difficulty of keeping 600 or 700, and sometimes 1,000, men in strict discipline, he believed the salaries given, though they might, in some instances, be too high, were not exorbitant, and that it would be impossible to make any great deduction from them. With regard to the gaols of this country, it was quite impossible to institute a comparison between them and this establishment. This was an establishment of a peculiar character, and stood by itself; but he trusted that steps would be taken within the next year for extending the beneficial influence of this establishment rather than of reducing it.
Mr. Briscoebegged leave to state, in reply to a suggestion of the hon. member for Middlesex, that nothing could be more unwise than to employ prisoners in any offices in the establishment. The prisoners were sent there to undergo punishment for crimes committed, and to make them superintend others was a mischievous perversion of the object of the establishment.
Mr. Wilksconsidered, that, when the report of the Committee on Secondary Punishments was received, it would be found that this establishment could be made a very important auxiliary in promoting the objects which that Committee had in view.
Mr. Humemust repeat, notwithstanding the remark of the hon. member for Surrey, that it would be beneficial to employ the prisoners in menial offices about the prison. He saw an item in the charge of 312 l. for assistant labourers to clean the yards. He thought the convicts might as well perform that duty, and some of the female convicts might as well perform the office of nurses as to hire persons for that duty.
Mr. Briscoebegged to observe, that the hon. Member had not given quite a correct account of the expenditure of the 312 l., for the wages of the engineers and other persons were included in that sum as well as that of labourers for cleansing the yards.
Resolution agreed to.
The next item was the sum of 1,462 l., in aid of the fee fund for the office of the registry of slaves.
Mr. Humesaid, this was a new item in the accounts, he had not observed any such charge before.
Mr. Spring Riceobserved, in reply, that
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it was no new expense. It was formerly defrayed out of the contingencies of the Colonial Office. He had thought this an objectionable mode, and had, therefore, made it a separate vote. The salary of the Colonial Registrar was 800 l. He had two clerks and a messenger, with house-rent and other charges; the whole expense was about the sum proposed for the vote.
Mr. Humesaid, that it really appeared to him to be quite impossible to reduce the expenditure of the country, if a mere clerk was to be paid a salary of 800 l.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the Registrar was not a mere clerk: his duties required a considerable portion of legal knowledge.
Vote agreed to, as were votes of 5,400 l. for the expenses of the State-paper office, the office for the custody of Records in the Tower, and in the Chapter House, Westminster, was agreed to. 66,151 l. for the charge of retired allowances or superannuations to persons in public offices, or in the public service. 16,000 l. for the relief of Toulonese and Corsican emigrants, American loyalists, &c., was agreed to. 2,100 l. for the National Vaccine Establishment. 3,000 l. for the Society for the Refuge of the Destitute. 3,682 l. for the support of criminal lunatics; as were 5,150 l. to Dissenting ministers of Great Britain, poor French refugees, the inhabitants of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, &c. 99,500 l. for stationery, printing, binding, &c. for both Houses of Parliament, and the various public offices in Great Britain and Ireland. 4,500 l. to defray extraordinary expenses, incurred in the coinage of gold. 1,000 l. for the law expenses incurred in prosecuting coiners.
The next sum was 44,325 l. for secret service money.
Mr. Huntopposed the grant, as being extravagant for such a purpose, under what was called a liberal Administration.
Mr. Spring Ricestated, that the grant was small as compared with the grants of former years: in 1825 it was 56,000 l., in 1826 it was 49,000 l., in 1829, 45,000 l., and he wished to inform the House that only 1,000 l. of the vote were required for Great Britain.
Mr. Huntsaid, he was not satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, and, by way of experiment, he would move that the vote be reduced one half—say 22,000 l.
The Committee divided on the Amendment. The numbers were—Ayes 1—Noes 63—Majority 62.
Vote agreed to.
56,000 l. was proposed for printing the Bills and Reports of both Houses of Parliament.
Mr. Humesaid, that he must protest against this monopoly, still continued, of a King's printer. He thought it monstrous that the people should be prevented having a knowledge of the Acts of Parliament at a cheap rate; and he conceived that one penny, instead of one shilling and ninepence, ought to be a sufficient charge for each copy of an Act of Parliament.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he was ready to acknowledge that every one should have access to the laws, but the hon. member for Middlesex should recollect that Government was prevented doing any thing in the present matter, waiting the report of the Committee which the hon. Gentleman himself had moved for.
Mr. Humedenied that that circumstance should prevent Ministers acting as in the mean time, was evidently necessary.
Mr. Warburtonsupported Mr. Hume's objection, and instanced the fact, that an injunction had lately been obtained by the King's printer against an individual for publishing some Acts at a cheap rate.
Mr. Huntmaintained, that the Laws should be circulated as cheaply as possible, and that every person should have a knowledge of the laws under which he lived, and a voice in making them, through his Representatives.
Mr. Spring Rice, in explanation, said, that it was absolutely necessary that there should be authorised copies of the laws published.
Sir Robert Peelagreed with the right hon. Gentleman opposite that there should be authorised copies, and he suggested that the King's printer should publish cheap copies of the Acts. With reference to what the hon. Gentleman near him (Mr. Hunt) had said, he would ask the hon. Gentleman what he would do with those who were under age, and were, therefore, not entitled to vote for Representatives? At the Old Bailey, for instance, the great majority of the prisoners tried were mere youths; and the hon. member for Preston had next to take the women into account; and, therefore, extensive as his views of Reform were, he must see that, according to the rule which he had laid down, of allowing no prisoners to be tried under laws which they had not had a voice in making, that he would have something still to provide for.
Mr. Huntsaid, that the right hon.
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Baronet had objected to the doctrine of the Judges of the land, and not his; for the Judges told the prisoners that they were tried under the laws made by their Representatives. With regard to the infants and the women, the former had their parents to instruct them, and the latter had their husbands for their protection.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, the hon. member's infants at the Old Bailey were of a very dangerous class; and as to the women having husbands, "I (said the right hon. Baronet) spoke of unmarried women."
Mr. Huntreplied, that he argued upon the principle that every child in these kingdoms had a father and mother.
Vote agreed to.
The next sum proposed was 18,750 l. for law charges.
Mr. Humesaid, he understood there was at the Treasury a Solicitor, with a salary of 2,000 l. a-year, and an assistant Solicitor, with 1,500 l. a-year: he saw no occasion for two such officers.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, it was necessary to have an assistant Solicitor, as the attendance of the Solicitor himself could not always be had. Besides, these persons were a sort of standing Council to the Treasury and Home Office. They always conducted the Crown prosecutions. It must also be recollected that both these officers must be men of eminence in their profession, and that they must give up all other employment, and that they had no fees. In the Post Office, the Solicitor was paid by costs, but in all the other public establishments the Solictors had fixed salaries, which was found, on the whole, the best and most economical mode of conducting the public business.
Vote agreed to, as was
119,860 l. for the support and employment of convicts at Bermuda. 31,250 l. for the support of the captured slaves and liberated Africans, in the abolition of the slave trade, and 8,519 l. for the salaries of Commissioners under the same Acts.
105,638 l., 15 s. was proposed, for the salaries of Consuls, Consuls-General, and Vice-Consuls.
Mr. Dixonrose to complain, that a motion which he had given notice of for Thursday night last had been frustrated by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. The motion was respecting the claims of British subjects on the Brazilian government; and the noble Lord, not being prepared for the discussion, had contrived that there should be no House. Ministers

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had placed their emissaries in the lobby of the House to prevent Members from entering; and he himself had been stopped by one of them. There was a charge against the noble Lord for interfering with a despatch to Lord Aberdeen, which would render him amenable to a parliamentary impeachment. He was disgusted with the proceedings of the noble Lord; and he was determined, if Ministers gave him any annoyance, to show them he could annoy them in return.
Viscount Palmerstonsaid, the friends of the hon. Member must feel some apprehensions of an approaching delirium. The hon. Member had complained of indisposition, and he would advise him to take physic. The hon. Member quite forgot himself in the importance he attached to himself and his motion, which was viewed with supreme indifference. The Ministry had nothing whatever to do with preventing a House from assembling, and he could assure the hon. member there was a Cabinet Council on that day.
Mr. Dixonwould repeat, the conduct of the noble Lord was most unworthy. As to the sneer about his indisposition, he treated the noble Lord and his remarks with perfect contempt.
The Chairmanfelt himself obliged to call the hon. Member to order.
Mr. Humesaid, he could not see the necessity of paying to the Consuls the large sums they at present received, when it was well known that the Vice-Consuls performed the whole duty. He thought that merchants would perform the duties of consulship cheaper and better than others. He had received a letter from the Mauritius, stating that the gentleman who had been appointed Attorney General there was so ignorant of the laws and the language, that the Governor was obliged, by proclamation, to appoint a person to assist him.
Viscount Palmerstonsaid, on his accession to office, he had expressed to the South American States his readiness to enter into commercial relations with them. There was no Consul at Lima, from which, no doubt, great inconvenience arose; but he had done all in his power to remedy it, and there was a gentleman already appointed, who would proceed there as soon as possible. He hoped, that the reduction which had been already made in the Colonial Department, to the amount of 29,000 l., would afford a proof that they were not inattentive to the public interest.
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As to the appointment of merchants, though that might answer in some instances, yet, from their connections and private interest, they would not be in general the most proper persons.
Vote agreed to.
172,236 l. were next proposed for the convicts in New South Wales.
Lord Eliotwished to draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact, that a great expense might be saved by purchasing stores on the spot. He also begged to draw the attention of the Committee to the circumstance that this charge did by no means cover the expenses of the colonies of Van Diemen's Land and New South Wales, on account of the convicts. There were also stores supplied by the Ordnance, which were included in the estimates of that Board, and there were also charges in the Navy Estimates, as incurred by the Navy, Victualling, and Medical Departments.
Mr. Spring Ricereadily admitted, that the strictures of the noble Lord were justly founded, but there was an improvement in this account over those of former years. He acknowledged it was yet very imperfect, but he hoped next year to bring all the expenditure under one head. With respect to the application of convict labour, also an important alteration was about to be made. Hitherto a very considerable number of convicts had been employed in Government works, which works ought never to have been undertaken. The alteration contemplated was, if any public works were required in future, they were to be done by contract.
Mr. Dixonbegged to ask the right hon. Gentleman, what control the colonial revenues were under? he heard they amounted to 150,000 l. a year.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the House had no control over the revenues of New South Wales. They were administered altogether under an Act of Parliament by the colonial government, and that Act was somewhat analogous to the Appropriation Act.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, he had great doubts if these revenues were well administered; there were reports of favoritism and patronage connected with apportioning convict labour. He would propose to remedy those evils—that convict labour should be put up to auction; by which means a considerable saving might be made in sending out convicts from this country. The council of New South Wales ought to be narrowly watched. He understood

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they had already passed a Corn Law and a Tobacco Bill, and they might get into a habit of legislating for their own benefit, if they were not timely checked. He, therefore, did hope the Treasury would not lose sight of them.
Mr. Humewished to be informed, up to what period the accounts from New South Wales had been received? The Governor was drawing for 150,000 l. a year; and it was trifling with the House not to remit the accounts duly.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, if there was any delay at present, it might be accounted for by a new Governor being appointed, who had yet hardly arrived in the colony. The delay had heretofore arisen in consequence of the grant being in the Army Extraordinaries. This abuse was now, however, remedied, and he hoped the accounts would be quite as regular as those from any other colony, allowing for the great distance.
Resolution agreed to.
10,462 l. for fees of Officers of Parliament.
19,504 l. 9s. 2d. for salaries of Commissioners of Charities.
15,000 l. for the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the practice of the Superior Courts of Common Law respecting real property.
10,000 l. to defray the expenses incurred under the direction of the Commissioners of Records, were also voted.
On the question, that 15,700 l. be paid to the representatives of the late Mr. Shelton, for expenses incurred for contracts and securities relative to the transportation of convicts to New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land,
Mr. Dixonsaid, this was a most extraordinary charge, and he begged the right hon. Gentleman would favour the House with some explanation of it.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the late Mr. Shelton had delayed, in an extraordinary manner, for nearly forty years, sending his accounts, as Clerk of Arraigns, concerning the transportation of convicts. A considerable sum had been paid for stamps; and other sums were paid by him which he had never demanded from Government. The account presented by his executors was 22,000 l. which had been reduced to 15,700 l.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, he must bear his testimony to the probity of Mr. Shelton, with whom he had been many years acquainted. He was a very careless man
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with regard to money. He had a large income, and his expenses were small; the consequence was, that he did not collect the money owing to him. On his death Bankers' checks, to the amount of several thousand pounds, which had been paid to him, were found scattered about his drawers. A more honourable man never existed, and he was of opinion no deduction ought to have been made from the 22,000 l. claimed.
Mr. Alderman Hughes Hughesbegged to confirm every word which had been uttered by his hon. friend. He assured the Committee, after a very careful investigation of the subject, that the public had been great gainers by the accounts not being duly remitted.
Resolution agreed to.
On the next vote, for 5,000 l. as a compensation to Mr. William Smith Boyd, owner of the ship Almorah, in consequence of the seizure of that ship at New South Wales, in 1825, by Captain Mitchell, of the Slaney, and at Calcutta, by Captain Bremer, of the Tamar,
Mr. Dixonsaid, before this vote was agreed to, he wished to have some explanation respecting it.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the circumstances of the case were shortly these:—In consequence of a scarcity of provisions in the colony of New South Wales in the year 1824, the Governor of the colony engaged the Almorah to proceed to procure a supply of provisions. In 1825, this vessel returned, having touched at Manilla, and, in addition to the rice and other provisions, had taken on board twenty-four boxes of specie, and 300 chests of tea, on account of the colony; and the commissary had also taken on board, on his own account, thirty-four chests of tea. If there was anything which could bear the name of smuggling, in connexion with this ship, it was only with reference to the thirty-four chests of tea, and this had been put on board by the Government officer, the commissary of the ship; and the Captain had nothing whatever to do with it. On the arrival of the vessel in the waters of Sidney, she was seized by Captain Mitchell, of his Majesty's ship Slaney, on the ground, that the ship had imported this tea into the colony without having a license from the East India Company. Now, if there was any breach of the law, it was with respect to the thirty-four chests of tea which the commissary had embarked; but the officer who made the seizure was not aware of

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this part of the cargo, but pursued the conduct which he did in consequence of the 300 chests of tea, which were imported by leave of the Governor of the colony. The Governor, as soon as he heard of this seizure, wrote to Captain Mitchell, and stated, that the ship had been employed by him, and that he had authorized the Captain of the Almorah to import the tea; he, therefore, gave orders to the Captain of the King's ship, not to proceed, but to give up the vessel. The Governor was not, however, aware of the thirty-four chests of tea being on board the Almorah. The Governor then gave orders to the Attorney General of the colony to proceed on board the Almorah, and to assure the Captain that he would be a guarantee for the safety of the vessel, and would deposit specie to the amount of the value of the ship and cargo. The Captain, however, was guilty of the most extraordinary conduct; for he would not allow the Attorney General to come on board his vessel, but threatened to fire upon him; and, indeed, refused to hold any intercourse with him, but instantly set sail from the colony to Calcutta. On the arrival of the Almorah in the river Hoogley, Captain Bremah came upon the scene. On this latter officer being informed that the Almorah had arrived from Sidney with tea on board, he instantly seized the ship. It appeared, however, on inquiry, that Captain Bremah was not authorized in making this seizure; for, although, undoubtedly, the Captain of the Almorah had been guilty of an indiscretion and a breach of the law, yet it did not appear that he contemplated a fraud. The proceedings were long carried on in the Admiralty Court at Calcutta, by Captain Bremah, against the owners of this vessel on the one hand, with a view to procure the condemnation of it, and by the owners of the Almorah on the other, against Captain Bremah, for an illegal seizure. It was at last mutually agreed between the parties, that all proceedings in these suits should cease on both sides, and that the one party should abandon the seizure, and the other the action to try the legality of it. It appeared that, up to this time, the owners of the Almorah had lost no less than 8,000 l. in the cargo and freight; and, of this sum, 3,000 l. was due by the Governor of the colony for freight. After the fullest consideration of these circumstances, therefore, it had been thought just, that the sum named in the Resolution should be given to the owners
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of the Almorah as a remuneration. It might be said, that the first wrongdoer in this case was Captain Melville, who, it must be admitted, appeared, according to the statement which he had made, to have acted with considerable indiscretion. It was a question, whether Captain Melville ought not to be made to pay the loss which he had occasioned, and the opinion of the law-officers of the Crown was taken on the subject. He had that day received their reply, and a Minute had passed the Treasury to direct proceedings to be commenced against that officer, in accordance with the opinion. After the most attentive consideration of the case, it had been thought most fair that the owners of this vessel should be paid at once, and that they should not be kept out of their money until the result of the trial could be known.
Mr. Dixonsaid, he was in the colony at the time this seizure was made, and at that time there being a great scarcity, the vessel was sent to procure a cargo of rice; but there was no occasion to import tea. Neither in his opinion had the vessel any business at Manilla, and he understood she had been previously engaged in smuggling tea into the colony. He knew that in Van Diemen's Land in 1825 the only teas imported into that island went by the name of Almorah and Albina, being the names of the vessels in which the teas were imported. He had also heard some circumstances varying from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman relating to the seizure of the vessel at Calcutta. On all these accounts he should like to see all the papers connected with the case.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the papers were extremely voluminous, and it would perhaps be advisable to print only a portion of them, but he should be happy to show the whole to any hon. Member who had a desire to look into the case. After the most attentive consideration, the Treasury had come to the conclusion that the owners of the vessel ought to be paid forthwith, and the country must look to the officers who seized the vessel for repayment, if they had committed any fault.
Mr. Dixonsaid, he had no wish to have the whole of the papers laid on the Table, but there appeared to him something extraordinary in the whole proceedings; he wished very much to know on what grounds the action commenced against Captain Bremah at Calcutta had been compromised.
Mr. Spring Rice: It was because Captain Bremah was not justified in acting as

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he did, although it was clear that the Captain of the Almorah had been guilty of an irregularity which made it extremely improbable that the owners of the vessel could have obtained a decision against the naval officer. The terms of the compromise were, that Captain Bremah should give up the vessel, and that the owners of it should abandon their action against him. The law officers of the Crown, however, had recommended that proceedings should be instituted against Captain Melville, as there was a sufficient case to go before a Jury, and it was thought better that the proceedings should be instituted by the Government than by the owners of the vessel, as the ship had been hired by the Governor of the colony.
Sir George Clerkwas aware of some of the circumstances connected with this case, and the papers certainly were extremely voluminous. He understood that the question of the legality of the seizure by Captain Melville was also to have been tried at Calcutta. As for the compromise that was entered into between Captain Bremah and the owners of the vessel, he thought all the particulars relating to it ought to be laid upon the Table before a a shilling of the public money was voted to remunerate the owners of the vessel for the loss they had sustained. Indeed, even in justice to the Captain of the Slaney, he did not think that the House should be called upon to decide the case until the whole of the papers had been laid on the Table. If Captain Melville acted illegally, of course he was responsible for his conduct, and an action could be brought against him for the recovery of the loss the owners of the vessel might have sustained. He thought, moreover, that the proceedings for this purpose ought to be carried on by the owners of the vessel, and not by the Government. If the officer of a King's ship through carelessness, did any damage to a merchant vessel, he was liable to be proceeded against for the recovery of damages; but the Government never advanced the money and brought the action. He saw no reason why an exception should be made in favour of the owners of the Almorah.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, as the ship was in the employ of the Colonial Government of New South Wales at the time the seizure took place, the circumstances of the case were different from the case put by the right hon. Baronet. He thought it would be extremely hard upon the owners of the ship after they had been
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kept out of their money since 1824, to wait for remuneration until the action was decided. It should be remembered that the larger portion of the money claimed was for the freight of the vessel. There could be no doubt, that an act was committed under the British flag against the laws of the colony, and, that the owners of the Almorah had to complain of being illegally treated. Surely, therefore, they ought not to be longer kept out of the money due for the freight of their ship. The Governor of the colony might not have acted properly in having 300 chests of tea shipped in the way previously described; but that furnished no reason for seizing the vessel, for it must be understood the thirty-four chests of tea embarked by the Commissary had been taken no account of by those who made the seizure.
Mr. Humefelt much surprised, that the owners of the vessel had not commenced legal proceedings against Captain Melville in the lapse of eight years since the transaction had taken place. The conduct of that officer had been most extraordinary, and it ought to have been noticed by the Admiralty.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, proceedings had been going on for the last six years, but no decision had hitherto been given
Mr. Courtenaydid not think the House would be justified in voting the sum of 5,000 l. for this purpose without being put into possession of the facts of the case; he thought a selection might be made of the papers, and those placed on the Table best calculated to elucidate it.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, if hon. Members wished the vote postponed until the papers were presented, he should offer no opposition to such a course, but it was clear whoever was in the wrong the freight of the vessel must be paid.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, if the statement of the right hon. Gentleman was correct, of which he entertained no doubt, the case of the owners appeared an extremely hard one. If papers were thought necessary to explain the case, he thought a summary might be drawn up with marginal notes and reference to documents, but he had no objection to pass the vote at once, relying upon his right hon. friend's correctness.
Sir Thomas Freemantlesaid, as it was clear that the owners of the vessel had sustained a heavy loss from no fault of their own, he would rather vote the money at once. In a case like the present it was necessary

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in his opinion, that every confidence should be placed in the Government.
Sir Robert Inglis: The proposal of the honourable member for Bridport, to have a summary drawn up by the order of Government was in his mind very objectionable. If papers were to be relied on undoubtedly they ought to consist of the original documents.
Mr. Spring Ricehad no wish to press this vote, if hon. Gentlemen thought further information necessary. If any hon. Member would call at the Treasury, and select such papers as he deemed necessary, he could assure him that he should have ready access to them. Of course, in a matter where personal character was involved—and especially the character of a King's officer, as it was in this case—every possible information should be furnished.
Mr. Huntsaid, he should certainly take the sense of the Committee on the vote.
Vote postponed.
15,716 l. 13 s. 9d. for the claims of St. Domingo sufferers; and 55,139 l. 0s. 9d. for the expenses of the pay of commissariat officers, compensations, retired allowances, widows' pensions, and compassionate list were voted.
The House resumed.