Commons Sitting of 1 September 1831

MINUTES.
Bills. Brought in by Mr. JEPHSON, to regulate the Office for registering Deeds, Conveyances, and Wills in Ireland. Committed the Hackney Coaches.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. SADLER, Copy of the Evidence taken before the Committee of the House of Lords last Session to consider of the Poor-laws:—On the Motion of Mr. STEWART MACKENZIE, for a Copy of the twenty-fourth Report on Public Charities:—On the Motion of Mr. CRAMPTON, for Copies of any Answer received to a Letter dated 26th January 1831; from the Chief Secretary of Ireland to the several Courts of Justice as to the suggestions of the Commissioners of Judicial Inquiry.
Petitions presented. By Mr. LAMBERT, from the Trustees and Managers of the Hungerford and New Ross Wexford Savings Banks, for alteration of the Act 9th George 4th. cap. 92, respecting the amount to be invested by Depositors; and from the Catholic Inhabitants of New Ross, Wexford against any further Grants to the Kildare Street Society. By Mr. Alderman WOOD, from Watermen and Lightermen on the River Thames, in favour of the Steam Vessels Bill. By an HON. MEMBER, from the Minister, Churchwardens and Inhabitants of Sheen, for the Repeal or alteration of the Beer Act.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN INDIA.
Sir Charles Forbespresented a Petition from the Hindoos, Parsees, and Mahometans—natives of the East Indies, and inhabitants of the island of Bombay, praying, that all his Majesty's subjects, being natives of India, should be declared eligible to serve on Grand Juries; that the Trial by Jury in civil cases, in his Majesty's Courts of Justice in the three presidencies, should be established; that the natives should be declared eligible to serve on such Juries, as they at present did on Petit Juries, in all criminal trials in his Majesty's Courts in India; and that they might be allowed to act as Justices of the Peace, in conjunction with British Magistrates. He considered them better qualified for that office than young men, recently arrived in India from England, without any practical knowledge of the country, or the manners, customs, and habits of the natives. He had in his possession letters from native Parsees, which showed them to be fully qualified for any civil situation, and they felt the distinction which was made between them and the natives, not being allowed to sit on Juries when Christians were tried. They were calculated by habit to exhibit the utmost patience, and were free from the prejudices which he had often witnessed in Grand and Petty Juries at home. Some further protection should also be afforded to the natives against arbitrary imprisonment. The Governor and Council had the authority to imprison, and no writ of Habeas Corpus was available against their authority.
Sir John Malcolmadmitted, that the persons who had signed the petition were as well known for their respectability and intelligence, as for their wealth. Some of them had been, for many years, amongst his best friends. He wished, therefore, to see them favoured in their just sphere. He believed that they were well qualified to act in the capacity of Jurors, and he was also of opinion they ought to be allowed to act as Justices of the Peace. They could easily make sufficient advancement in the knowledge of law to render it perfectly safe to permit them to act in that capacity. He had himself recommended them to be joined in administering the law, with reference to those police matters of which they had acquired competent knowledge. Indeed in Surat a Parsee had been for many years a police Magistrate, and had conducted himself with so much ability, in that difficult station, that the government of Bombay thought proper to invest him with an honorary title, and a real estate, which had been considered by the natives as a most enviable mark of distinction, and with which they were much delighted. He regretted, however, in a petition which contained so much to be commended, there were certain statements, relating to the provincial administration of India, which they considered defective. He could assert, however, that it had been formed, with reference to the state of the varied countries over which Great Britain ruled, and there was no country in which the administration of justice, in all its branches, was more ably or honourably conducted. During the time he had been governor of Bombay, no instance of the kind of arbitrary imprisonment mentioned by the hon. Baronet, had taken place; and if such a practice did exist, it was unknown to him. He, however, heartily concurred in the principal points contained in their petition.
Mr. Humehoped, as he saw the right hon. the President of the Board of Control in his place, that he should hear the intention of Government to extend to the population referred to in the petition, those privileges which the petitioners prayed the Legislature to confer on them.
Mr. O'Connellwas exceedingly glad to hear the statements of the petitioners fully confirmed by the hon. and gallant Officer. He thought the most strenuous efforts ought to be made to remove those grievances of which they complained. It
958
was quite obvious that the system of administration of Justice in India afforded no adequate protection for the rights of property, and scarcely any remedy for personal wrongs. There could not be a more horrible libel against the English Administration, than the state of India with respect to the administration of the law. The petitioners were grateful for very trivial matters, and all they now asked was, that the natives of that country might be declared eligible to serve on Grand Juries, and that Trial by Jury in civil cases might be established in his Majesty's Courts of Justice at the three Presidencies. Such a measure had been already adopted at Ceylon. Sir Alexander Johnstone—a person to whom humanity was deeply indebted—had there tried the experiment, and it had turned out eminently successful. The administration of justice in that country, he was informed had given great satisfaction. The petitioners stated distinctly, that their highest ambition was, to be placed on a level with European subjects, and they considered the distinctions made between them and Europeans as amongst the greatest evils they had to endure. There was an immense number of the human race—80,000,000 or 100,000,000—connected with this country, and whose land was made a matter of traffic for the purpose of raising a land revenue. A petition, speaking the sentiments of such a body, was surely deserving of every attention. He was aware of the press of business before the House, but he could not avoid expressing his sympathy with a class of people so numerous and so interesting.
Mr. Charles Grantdid not at present mean to enter into the details connected with this subject. There was, he understood, another petition about to be presented by the hon. Gentleman opposite (the member for Middlesex), from the same parties, or from parties similarly situated, which petition embraced not only the same topics, but also others of a very important nature. He was very glad to perceive, that these petitions from the East Indies were addressed to the House of Commons, because it proved that his Majesty's subjects in the East looked with confidence to Parliament for an amelioration of their condition; and he trusted that they would find, that their expectations would ultimately be disappointed. Hon. Members must be aware, that, at

959
the present moment, an inquiry was in process up-stairs, which entered deeply into all the great and important topics to which this petition referred—that of extending the Trial by Jury, the general judicial system of India, the establishment of the King's Courts throughout that country, and the adoption, as far as possible, in these Courts, and throughout India, of the English language—all the topics were embraced by that inquiry. These subjects naturally occupied much of the attention of the Committee up-stairs; nor was the minor subject—the right of; serving on Grand Juries, though comparatively of less importance—forgotten. Upon this latter subject, if the pressure of business had not prevented it, he had meant to have made a proposition, as well as with reference to another point, namely, the admission of natives to serve on Juries for the trial of Christians. Those two points were omitted in the Act of Parliament, and it was his intention to supply the deficiency, by repealing the third clause. The state of public business would not permit of his bringing in a bill for that purpose at present, but he did not hesitate to say, that it was his intention to bring in a bill to admit natives to serve on Grand Juries, and on Juries for the trial of Christians. As to the employment of the natives as Magistrates, that was a subject on which he could not undertake to give any pledge; but it was under consideration, and there was every disposition on the part of his Majesty's Ministers, in this, and in every other case in which it could be done without injury, to accede to the reasonable wishes of the natives of India. The original cause which occasioned the right to sit on Juries to be so much restricted, was, the actual paucity of persons who were supposed to be fit to serve on Juries. He was most anxious to contribute, by every means in his power, to raise the character of his Majesty's subjects in the East, by extending to them, in every proper and practicable case, British privileges; and, with this feeling, he concurred in the propriety of the petition.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonsaid, he felt much gratification at the announcement made by the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Control; for he could, of his own knowledge, declare, that the omission, which the right hon. Gentleman meant to remedy, had excited much dis-
960
content among the natives of India. He was convinced that their talents might be usefully employed to a much greater extent than had hitherto been made available; but how far the Government ought to go, was a question of such immense importance, as required the most cautious consideration. He must totally deny an allegation that had been made, and repeated—that the natives had no adequate protection for their property, or security for their persons. The administration of the law in India was necessarily imperfect, but it was wonderful how well it had answered. The persons who were intrusted with the judicial administration, from necessity, were only acquainted with European ideas, and were ignorant of the laws, languages, and habits of the natives. The great difficulty, therefore, was, how local knowledge could be associated with that general knowledge of the principles of jurisprudence, which it was so necessary for a lawyer to possess. The administration of India was, in his opinion, capable of being improved; but great caution was necessary. Very considerable benefits had been obtained by the establishment of the King's Courts, by which a system of peculation and misrule had been stopped by the Judges who presided, and before whom any native might bring his case, and be sure of obtaining redress; for the Judges had a merciful leaning in favour of the defenceless natives. Nothing but the coercive power of those Judges could have afforded protection to the natives. He could not concur, therefore, in the opinion, that there was no protection for the property of the natives.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, in the few remarks he had made, he had not alluded to the administration of justice by the superior Courts, but solely to its administration by inferior Courts, in the interior of the country, which he still considered capable of much improvement. He was happy to observe the spirit in which this petition had been received by the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Control.
Petition to be printed.
Mr. Hume,in presenting a similar Petition from 4,000 Christians, Hindoos, Parsees, Mahometans, and Jews, natives of his Majesty's territories in the East Indies, and inhabitants of the island of Bombay, stated, that the petition had been transmitted from India to this country

961
so far back as the month of January last, but that its presentation had been delayed in consequence of the pressure of business in that House. The situation of the Committee now sitting on East-India affairs, however, rendered it desirable that the presentation of the petition should be no longer delayed. The petition was in English, but it had been translated into the languages of the natives, and was signed by many of them. He should be happy to see in the House an efficient Representation of India; and he had heard with great satisfaction, what the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Control, had said about the natives looking up to that House. He regretted to hear from any person, that these people were not fit to administer the justice of the country; for men of higher honour, or purer feelings, were not to be found in the world. The hon. Member went, in detail, through the different parts of the petition, which was as follows, corroborating its statements by his own assertions:—
"To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled;
"The Humble Petition of the undersigned Christians, Hindoos, Parsees, Mahometans, and Jews—natives of his Majesty's territories in India, and Inhabitants of the island of Bombay:
"Most Humbly Showeth—It is with confidence and satisfaction that we address ourselves to your honourable House: It is to Parliament that the natives of his Majesty's territories in India are indebted for the public institutions, intended to prevent injury and insult to them, and to raise them in the ranks of society; and we acknowledge with gratitude the efforts of your honourable House to promote those good purposes. It is principally to inquiries pursued by your honourable House, that the natives of India owe their earliest protection from injustice and degradation, by the establishment of the Supreme Court of Judicature at Calcutta. From that origin have successively proceeded the Recorders' Courts, and the Supreme Courts of Judicature, at Madras and Bombay: those Courts have ever fulfilled the duties intrusted to them by our gracious Sovereign Lord the King; they have acquired the confidence and esteem of the natives of India, and attached them to the British Government. At Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay, are the most numerous assemblages of the natives of India, and of foreign countries in Asia; they are of every variety of religion, cast, and sect; diversified in sacred rites and observances, and in social manners and usages. The Supreme
962
Courts of Judicature, where they have jurisdiction over the matter to be tried, whether civil or criminal, have also power to summon witnesses, and to execute all their orders and judgments, whether by arrest of the person, or by seisure and sale of property, throughout the whole of the territories under the Presidencies at which those Courts are respectively established. Those Courts, in the execution of their processes and orders, have always been scrupulously observant of the religious doctrines, rites, and observances, and of the manners and usages of the natives. The experience of more than half a century at Calcutta, and of more than a quarter of a century at Madras and Bombay, has proved that life, property, character, and personal liberty, can be protected by his Majesty's Courts of Justice, without violation of the religions, manners, and usages of the natives. We appeal to that evidence, to contradict erroneous reports, which have been sedulously propagated, and have too long been acquiesced in, that the introduction of Courts of Justice into India, strictly administering the law for the protection of life, property, character, and personal liberty, is incompatible with the religions, manners, and usages of the natives, and would be highly offensive to them. Miserable, indeed, would be the condition of mankind, if the duties of Judges could not be executed without offending the religions, manners, and usages of those over whom they have jurisdiction. Reports also have long prevailed, and been acquiesced in, that the religions, manners, and usages of the natives of India repelled their employment in judicial functions, and that they had not capacity to perform them. The unprejudiced mind of Sir Alexander John stone controverted the truth of that report; and the experience of five years at Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay, has demonstrated the willingness of the natives to aid in the administration of justice, even in the unpleasant office of Jurors on trials for crimes, and their utility as Jurors has been repeatedly declared by the Supreme Court at Bombay.
"By the Charters of Justice of all the Supreme Courts of Judicature in India, and of the former Recorders' Courts at Madras and Bombay, all British subjects, and all natives, who, directly or indirectly, are employed in the service of his Majesty, or of the United Company of Merchants trading to the East Indies, or of any of his Majesty's British subjects, are subject to the Civil Jurisdiction of those Courts, in all actions for wrongs or trespasses; and the same persons, by the Acts 4 Geo. IV. c. 71, and 9 Geo. IV. c. 74, and the Charters of the Supreme Courts, are subject to the jurisdiction of those Courts, for the crimes specified in 9 Geo. IV. c. 74. In those provisions we recognize the wisdom, justice, and humanity of our gracious Sovereign Lord the King, and of the two Houses of Parliament. It was apprehended, that persons ex-

963
ercising public authority would injure the natives, and, for civil torts, and for crimes, the whole of them arc placed under the jurisdictions of the Supreme Courts. But those laws have been little more than a dead letter; they are unknown, except at the Presidencies and in their vicinity. We, therefore, earnestly entreat, that whatever laws may be enacted for the amelioration of the condition of the natives of India, that effectual means may be provided to ensure the real and practical utility of those laws, and that they may not be, as some Acts of Parliament have been, mere nominal benefits to the natives.
"By several Acts of Parliament, the Governments at Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay have authority to frame regulations for the Provincial Courts, and which his Majesty in Council may disallow or amend; and if not disallowed within two years, they are to be of force and authority to direct the Provincial Courts, according to the tenor of the said amendment; and those regulations are annually to be laid before the two Houses of Parliament. In those enactments we again perceive the desire of Parliament to benefit the natives of India, by administering justice to them according to their own laws, and with a scrupulous attention to their religions, manners, and usages; and the Governments in India, from a supposition of their having the most correct knowledge on those matters, were intrusted with the execution of that power, subject to the revision of his Majesty in Council. But that power has been the great cause of the degradation of the natives. The uniform construction of those enactments has been, that it authorizes the Governments in India to make and repeal laws, civil and criminal; to make and annul Courts of Justice, civil and criminal; and to legislate absolutely over the natives residing beyond the ordinary jurisdiction of the Supreme Courts, wherever there is no specific enactment of Parliament on the subject. It is from the existence of that power, that laws have been enacted for the natives, and Courts of Justice established to administer them, that have stamped upon the natives of India the character of a conquered, distinct, and degraded people. The Criminal Code in force under this Presidency is among the records of your honourable House, and we refer to it in confirmation of our assertions, that it is vague in its language—that it regulates too much in detail the actions of the natives—that it abounds in severe discretionary punishments, by way of fine or imprisonment, or both—that it has an endless repetition of commutation of imprisonment for a fine—that the truth of facts is left to the decision of the British Judge, without any effectual control in persons of the decription of the accused—and that the Judge has no sympathy with the persons subject to his criminal jurisdiction. Throughout the judicial regulations of the Bombay Government, there is not one on the principle of the writ of
964
Habeas Corpus ad subjiciendum; and, we believe that the same observation applies to the judicial regulations framed by the Governments at Calcutta and Madras. Your honourable House well understands the extensive range of human happiness that is protected by that writ: all there is in strong contrast with the Criminal Jurisdiction at the Presidencies. The gentlemen appointed Judges in the Courts, Civil and Criminal, are extremely deficient in the knowledge necessary to perform their duties. Courts of Justice are principally constituted for the security of life, of property, of character, and of personal liberty; and your honourable House well knows the great and various qualifications that are required in a Judge, to perform those duties. But the Judges of the Provincial Courts, Civil and Criminal, have no strong motive to stimulate them to acquire those qualifications. This is a fundamental and incorrigible vice in the judicial system. The change from one department of the civil service to another, is also too frequent to admit the acquisition of the necessary ability in the Judge: at one time he is in a Ministerial office at the Presidency; at another, he is in the Judicial department in the Provinces; at another he is in the Collectorate in the Provinces; and at another, he is in the Political department. At this time, the Chief Judge of the Sudder Dewannee Adawlut, and the Sudder Foujdaree Adawlut at Bombay; that is, of the Supreme Courts of Appeal in Civil and Criminal cases, is a gentleman who never was in the Judicial Department until he was made the Chief Justice of those Courts. The Civil Courts are also extremely defective, from the almost total absence of the intelligence of the natives, in the ascertainment of facts. The defects in the judicial system which we have noticed, we presume to hope, would attract the attention of your honourable House, even if the Judges always meant to do right; but the truth is, that those Judges are the principal instruments of wrong, particularly of false imprisonment, to the natives; and those acts of injustice are committed with ostentatious indifference to the feelings of those who suffer, and to the opinion of the native community. We particularly allude to the false imprisonment of Balloo bin Hurryram Sinday, Hindoo; of Ransord Kessowjee, Hindoo; of Narroba Govind Oughtia, Hindoo; and of Dhondoo Bullol, Hindoo; all proved in the Supreme Court of Judicature at Bombay. The two former committed at Tannah, within fifteen miles of the island of Bombay; and the other two at Poonah, within 100 miles of Bombay, and between both which places and Bombay there is a constant intercourse. It is, therefore, no exaggeration in us to affirm, that the laws administered to the natives beyond the Presidencies, and the Courts of Justice appointed to administer those laws, stamp upon the natives the character of a conquered, distinct, and degraded people.

965
"It is true, that the impartiality in the Courts of Justice, that we have presumed to solicit and enforce, will be offensive to some of the connections and adherents of former Sovereigns, who had privileges in some respects exempting them from the jurisdiction of Courts of Justice; as, for instance, the Sirdars in the Dekan, whose privileges have been conceded to them by a Regulation of the Bombay Government—Regulation 29, A.D. 1827. But we arc sure that your honourable House will not expose the meanest of his Majesty's subjects in India to injury in life, property, character, or personal liberty, in complaisance to the vicious pride of those personages.
"We implore your honourable House, earnestly and without prejudice, to reflect on the condition of the natives inhabiting his Majesty's territories in India; in number, they exceed sixty millions; the greater part of them are his Majesty's natural-born subjects, and almost all the rest are denizens. This immense population, who have strong natural and legal pretensions to participate in the advantages of society, are almost entirely excluded from offices of trust and emolument. It is impossible for your honourable House to credit misrepresentations, obviously originating in prejudice and self-interest, that confound the whole native population into one mass of ignorance and corruption. The natives of the territories now British India were highly civilized, and, by their various manufactures, largely contributed to the splendour of Thebes, of Palmyra, and of ancient Alexandria, when the inhabitants of one of the most powerful and illustrious kingdoms of modern Europe lived in woods, and fought with bows and arrows and clubs. Whatever injury has been done to their understandings and moral principles, by the long continuance of despotism, will easily and rapidly be rectified by Courts of Justice intelligently and impartially administering justice among them; and by their admissibility into honourable and profitable offices in the Judicial, Territorial, and Financial Departments, being made to depend on their intellectual and moral character. The dynasties of the Sovereigns of the territories conquered by the British arms were of very short duration; those Sovereigns never had a strong hold on the affections of their subjects, and since those conquests, the natives have always manifested a desire to coalesce with the Crown of the United Kingdoms:—their wishes to do so have been repelled even with contumely. Upwards of sixty millions of his Majesty's subjects are at this time disjointed, loose, and floating on the surface of India. Nothing is more easy than to consolidate this immense population into one mass of cohesion with his Majesty's territories; administer justice to them wisely and impartially, and reward intellectual and moral merit with honourable and profitable offices, both at the Presidencies and in, the Provinces, and the
966
principle of cohesion will circulate through the whole body.
"With a view to the same principle of cohesion, we venture to suggest, that it is highly politic to introduce the English language into the vernacular languages of India; and, with that intention, for Parliament to enact, that no native, after the period of twelve years, shall be admissible into any office in the Judicial, Territorial, or Financial Departments, unless his competency in reading, writing, and speaking the English language, has been certified by a Committee appointed for his examination. The children of the natives of India have great aptitude in learning to read, write, and speak the English language. Since the institution of Schools for the instruction of the natives in the English language, under the advice and patronage of the honourable Mountstuart Elphinstone, Governor of Bombay, many of the children of the natives read, write, and speak the English language with facility and fluency. Besides the principle of cohesion which we have noticed, a knowledge of the English language, extensively dispersed among the natives of India, will afford great facilities for the future improvement of the Judicial System in India.
"Illustrious Legislators! Benefactors of the Human Race !—Your persevering and intelligent exertions to abolish the trade in slaves, have spread the fame of your humanity over the whole world. The destiny of upwards of sixty millions of human beings depends upon your Councils; they are the natural-born subjects, or the denizen subjects, of your own Sovereign. We are sure that you will be eager to redress the wrongs we have submitted to you.
"Knowing, as we do, the propensity to misrepresentation that will be active against the natives of India, and that it will be suggested that this petition does not contain the real opinions of all who have signed it, we have taken the liberty to subjoin to it a translation into the Goozaratte and Mahratta languages—the languages in most frequent use in Bombay; and if, in having so done, we have transgressed any of the rules of your honourable House, we crave your indulgence and pardon.
"And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c.
"Bombay, 25th January, 1831.

(Signed by)

"HORMUZJEE ROMANJEE,

Committee

"JAHANGHEIR NASSERVANJEE,

"JEEJEBHOY DADABHOY,

"CURSETJEE MUNCHERJEE,

and by upwards of four thousand respectable native inhabitants of Bombay, of every religion."
Mr. Charles Grantregretted that so important a subject should be brought under the consideration of the House at a time when it was impossible to bestow upon it the consideration it deserved.

967
Conceiving any discussion at that time to be premature, he should cautiously abstain from giving any opinion on the great question, though he begged leave to assure the House, that he was perfectly alive to its importance; and he hoped the petitioners would not judge of his opinion as to the subject by the brevity of his observations. He was happy, indeed, to conclude, from the petitioners' remarks on the use of the English language, that they were anxious to maintain their connection with this country. He would enter no further into the subject, except to assure the hon. Member, that the Government was extremely desirous to do whatever it could, to improve the condition, and promote the welfare, of the natives of India.
Sir John Malcolmmust express his regret, that this discussion had gone to such an extent. He was not one of those who thought it necessary that the sentiments of the House, upon the great question of Indian government, should have been anticipated on the present occasion. He only saw this petition a few minutes before he came into the House, but had since heard all that had been stated upon the subject. The hon. and learned member for Kerry did him a very great injustice when he supposed that he spoke in taunt, when he told him that he must study more than he probably had done, the comparative condition of the community in Ceylon, to that of our extended possessions in India. He only meant that the subject required more attention than his other avocations were likely to leave him time to devote to it; for the slightest shades of difference in these societies would often influence the decision on points connected with their administration. He said thus much, because he desired to avoid all personal allusions, and every ground of irritation. In the discussions which might take place upon the subject of India, it would, therefore, be his care to preserve that calmness of tone which should convey no offence to any individual, whatever might be his opinions. He desired nothing more than that the same indulgence might be extended to him, when expressing sentiments which the experience of his life had taught him to entertain. He confessed he was never more surprised than when the hon. member for Middlesex said, that he objected to the natives of India holding offices. He simply said, that the natives of Bombay
968
justly estimated themselves in not desiring to become Magistrates, unassociated with Europeans; because, their education had not given them a competent knowledge of British law to enable them to fulfil that duty. The hon. Member might have judged, from all that he had ever said, written, or lone, that few men, during a long life of public service, had striven more for the attainment of an object than he had striven to elevate the character, and advance the interests, of the people of India. The hon. Member complained that the natives were not admitted to any share in the administration of justice. He would find on inquiry, that in the interior provinces of Bombay, there was not one civil case which was not originally tried by native Judges. These possessed the confidence of Government—and had liberal salaries—and as the suitors might appeal to the Session Judge of the province, and from him to a superior Court of circuit and appeal, the success of such a system, which avoided delays, and secured all the ends of justice was not doubtful. He should not detain the House further than to state a very few facts in reference to the observations of the hon. member for Middlesex, upon the petition which he had presented. The hon. Member, notwithstanding that act of the British Legislature, by which the Government of India was empowered to make laws and regulations for the administration of all the provinces beyond the limits of his Majesty's Courts established at the presidencies, had justified the expression in the petition from the natives of Bombay, "that the laws administered beyond the presidencies, and the courts of justice appointed to administer those laws, stamp upon the natives the character of a conquered, distinct, and degraded people." He was happy to think, that if these were the sentiments of those who had signed this petition, they certainly were founded in ignorance, and were not shared by the other natives of India. He desired that the House would always bear in mind a most important distinction, which must be observed in all discussions upon this subject. The inhabitants of the presidencies, within the jurisdiction of the Supreme Courts, were as distinct in feelings, and ideas, and in everything but dress and language, from the natives of the towns and villages beyond the presidencies, as the inhabitants of any part of England were from those of the remotest part of

969
Hungary. Within the presidencies, the population consisted of Europeans, of different classes of Indo Britons, with a large motley, though respectable population of natives of all castes and tribes. In these great communities, schools had been instituted for the promotion of general education, a number of the scholars learnt English, and all of them formed rather of a European than an Indian society. To such a population the forms of his Majesty's Courts and the laws of England might be perfectly intelligible, and, perfectly applicable; but to extend them beyond these districts, where the communities consisted wholly of natives, to whom education had not yet reached, would be he thought mistaking the character and condition of those people. He entreated the House to recollect what a vast difference there was between England and India. Though it might have been deemed wise and expedient to introduce English law into the presidencies of India, where the population, from their comparative local circumstances, and their great commercial concerns, required such laws, it would be the deepest wound the Legislature could give to the British empire in Asia, to extend them further. England, in the highest state of civilization, required an endless multiplication of laws to protect the various interests of its inhabitants; but who could consider its statutes suited to the simple habits and more limited concerns of the natives of India? He certainly did, and must ever deprecate such an attempt. The whole code of laws which were administered at Bombay, was comprised in one volume, which had been translated into the vernacular languages of the country. There could be nothing more desirable in the law, although perhaps there was nothing connected with it more difficult of attainment, than that it should be rendered intelligible to all to whom it was administered. He stated with great satisfaction, that in consequence of the exertions of Mr. Elphinstone, and of the judicial officers in the presidency of Bombay, a plain and simple system of laws had been fully established in its provinces, which must soon be perfectly understood by all who came within the jurisdiction of the Provincial Courts in that country. That being the case, he need hardly say, that it was most appropriate to the character and condition of the community. He was perfectly willing, however,
970
that this and every petition from India, should be received and printed for that House. A petition very similar to the present one was addressed to a Judge of Bombay. He need not mention any name, but merely state, that it had been translated into the vernacular tongue, and sent to Poonah, near which city he happened to be residing. Its arrival created the utmost sensation. There were at Poonah a number of men of high rank, as well as many of wealth and respectability. These were in the habit of attending a levee which he held weekly, and which took place the day after that occurrence. There had been, consequently, no time for deliberation; and as the public officer, whose duty it was, to communicate with them, was absent, and did not return till immediately before the levee, the natives at Poonah had little, if any opportunity of consulting him. He mentioned these facts to prove, that an address made by them to him on that occasion was the honest effusion of the moment; and he also mentioned them as an excuse for some of the expressions in this Address, which, though quite sincere, were, as far as related to English lawyers, of a character which he of course could not approve; but when those who presented it crowded round him in numbers, and evinced real alarm, he could not criticise their language, and had only to answer their address, by assuring them that they should continue to live happy as they had done under the established rule, and that they need fear no change. He must, after the two petitions which had been presented that day, read, with the permission of the House, a literal translation of that address. It was given to him on the 17th of September, 1830, signed by all the principal inhabitants, and 2,000 others, and he was satisfied, that it expressed not only their sentiments, but, as far as he had the means of judging, that of all the natives of the territories of Bombay, not residing at the presidency. It ran as follows:—
"We, the undersigned inhabitants of Poonah, have heard that, on the 10th or 11th instant, an address was presented by certain persons at Bombay, to a Judge of the Supreme Court, in, which it was stated, that the extension of the jurisdiction of that Court over the provinces, would be gratifying to all the population of the country, who were most desirous of such a measure being adopted.
"We have received this intelligence with

971
dismay and grief. If this statement should find its way to England, and it should be believed there that such are the real sentiments of the people of this country, measures may be adopted in conformity thereto. Our respectability and privileges will then cease to exist; lawyers will come and devour our substance, and destroy the community.
"When these provinces fell into the hands of the British Government, a resolution was issued, guranteeing to the inhabitants the preservation of their laws and customs. Subsequently, special regulations have been enacted for the maintenance, and dignity, and honour, of the ancient Sirdars of the country. These are now in force. Trusting to their permanence, we have lived in security and happiness.
"Last year, when a process of the Supreme Court was issued against Pandurang Ramchunder Dhumderry, a representation of our fears of the infringement of our privileges was made to the Government, the Government were pleased to answer us by an assurance that our fears were groundless; and the subsequent measures adopted, and which saved the honour of the house of Dhumderry, inspired the community with confidence.
"Since yesterday, we have heard this news from Bombay, and we are again plunged into anxiety for the result. We have, therefore, hastily written this address, and implore you to lose no time in transmitting to the highest authorities in England our prayer, that the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court of Bombay may not be extended to this province."
He trusted the House would give him credit for not having brought forward this address unnecessarily. But he would not enlarge upon the subject; the impolicy of such a course did not depend upon his testimony; the same opinion was evinced in all past Acts of the Legislature; and he was satisfied, that the more the matter was investigated, the more would the House be satisfied, that there was not the slightest foundation for the allegations which these petitioners had brought against the Judicial Courts of India, and the high and competent public officers who presided in them. It had been urged on that occasion, that the people had not been properly educated, and that no means had been afforded them of attaining a knowledge of the English language, He did not understand what the hon. member for Middlesex meant, when he talked about the want of education in India. Surely he did not mean, that the whole of the population, amounting to sixty or eighty millions, should be sent to school to learn English.
Mr. Humecertainly did.
Sir John Malcolm: Then God forbid that he should be the schoolmaster. It was stated in the petition, as a glaring instance of the improper construction of the Provincial courts, that besides the general incompetence of the Judges, the Chief Judge of the highest Court in Bombay had never—before he was nominated to that station—been in the judicial branch of the service. By the present constitution of the government, a member of Council, in his capacity of Councillor, belonged to that Court, and at Bombay, the fact was as stated. The highly respectable individual alluded to, had not been in the judicial branch, but that objection was more to form than substance. All the judicial duties on the circuits, belonged to the four Judges of that Court, who were invariably selected from the oldest and most competent public servants in the judicial line. The House would perceive how a plain simple statement disproved the assertions of those natives. By an enactment or regulation, which, whether wisely or unwisely passed it was not for him at present to inquire, it was provided, that one of the members of the Council must always be appointed to the head of the Court of Appeal. He could say more, but would only add, to what he had before stated, that though there might be some defects, as there were in all institutions, no laws were ever better adapted to those for whose benefit they were framed, nor more ably and honestly administered, than those which had been so much attacked in this groundless petition. He could more fully I answer the allegations which that petition contained, but was unwilling, at that time, to trespass upon the House. He could not, however, refrain from saying thus much, in order that it might not appear that such observations as had been made, were suffered to pass by entirely without comment. He could only repeat his regret, that he had been called into the discussion at all, because he thought that any debate upon the subject at the present moment, was premature and ill-timed; and more particularly so as it was the cause of unnecessary delay to other matters of the greatest importance.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonwas most unwilling to prolong the discussion; but having been particularly alluded to, he thought he might be allowed to offer a very few observations. The remarks which he made when the first petition was pre-

973
sented, were intended principally as an answer to the observation of the hon. and learned member for Kerry, that a general system of oppression prevailed in the administration of Justice in India, for which there was no remedy. Although he admitted that there might be some defects in the mode in which Justice was administered in India, still there were in all the presidencies, Courts of the last resort, filled by persons who were not only willing to listen to any complaints that might be brought before them, but who were also eminently qualified to give a correct decision upon them. However, upon this point he did not consider it necessary to say another word, because the hon. and gallant Officer who had just sat down appeared to him to have set it entirely at rest. His personal knowledge of India was principally confined to Bengal. Of the judicial bench there he could only say, that it was filled by men of the greatest eminence, of the highest attainments, and of the deepest learning. And when he mentioned the names of Mr. James Stewart, Mr. Colebrook, and Mr. Courtney Smith, three persons than whom none could be more eminently qualified to administer Justice in India, he thought he had said enough to show, that the natives of Bengal had nothing to dread from a partial or a negligent administration of the laws. With respect to what had been said of oppression, he would only observe, that in a great country like India, it could not be expected but that some individual cases of oppression must sometimes take place. The administration of Justice in such a country could not be made so perfect as positively to prevent occasional errors; but he must insist that the natives of India had, of late years, had much less cause of complaint upon this score than they had formerly. He certainly was sorry to hear his hon. friend express his concurrence in that part of the petition in which the petitioners stated that the Judges of India were, in truth, the principal instruments of wrong. He regretted to hear him express his assent to so general a censure upon the whole of that respectable body; but he was satisfied that when the proper opportunity arrived, he should be able to convince him, as well as the hon. and learned member for Kerry, that the statement was entirely without foundation.
Mr. O'Connellstated, that the hon. and
974
learned Gentleman had entirely mistaken him if he supposed that he meant to cast a reflection on the Judges of India. Unacquainted as he necessarily was with that country, from never having resided in it, of course he would not bear any testimony as to the truth or falsehood of the allegations which were made in the petitions which had been presented. It seemed, however, that a large body of the natives of India conceived that they had reasonable grounds of complaint against the mode in which Justice was administered to them. Whether their complaint were well or ill founded, he still maintained that the subject demanded the deepest consideration of that House; because, where the interests, the welfare, and the good government of so many were concerned, it was of the utmost importance that the administration of Justice should not only be pure but unsuspected. It was, however, worthy of remark, that these petitioners named particular instances of what they conceived to be an oppressive administration of the laws, and which were now on their way to this country for final decision. But the petitioners also stated, that the manner in which the laws were administered beyond the presidencies, stamped upon the natives the character of a conquered, distinct, and degraded people. He should judge from this that the petitioners did not refer to the King's Judges in the Supreme Courts, but to those who were allowed to act in the judicial capacity beyond the presidencies. He must, in justice to his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, say, that he had received the same impression with respect to the hon. and gallant Officer as his hon. friend; namely, that he was inimical to the admission of the native Indians to any offices of trust or emolument. He was glad to find, by the speech which the hon. and gallant Officer had just made, that such was not the case.
Sir Charles Forbescould not think, however anxious some hon. Gentlemen might be to proceed with the Reform Bill, that the two hours which had been consumed in the discussion of these petitions, in which the interests of 100,000,000 of fellow-subjects were involved, had been improperly spent. Would the House, for the sake of advancing the vile Reform. Bill, that hideous monster, the most frightful that ever showed its face in that House, refuse to devote a few minutes to the con-

975
sideration of two of the most important petitions that were ever laid on its Table? He claimed for the people of India a patient hearing. In justice to the hon. and gallant General, the late governor of Bombay, he must say, that he had understood, he followed up one of the regulations of the preceding Government, to a degree which, he thought, did him great honour—he meant the employment of natives in the judicial character in the interior of the country. He had no doubt that those who had been so employed would prove themselves worthy of the trust which had been confided to them. They had heard the opinion of an hon. Director opposite, as to the qualifications of the natives to fill such offices. He hoped he might be permitted to state to the House the opinions of one of his body who resided upwards of twenty years on the western side of India, and to whom he had sent the petition of the natives for perusal. In returning it he wrote as follows:—
"I have read the petition which you are commissioned to present to the House of Commons, from the natives of Bombay, with great satisfaction. I rejoice to see, that they sensibly feel their relative inferior position, and that in claiming the exercise of their natural rights, they are supported by reasoning conclusive in justice and good policy. It is not, as you know, a new sentiment with me, that our native fellow subjects should be admitted to a liberal participation in the government of their country. I have, from my earliest days in India, seen examples of talent, zeal, and integrity, among the natives not to be surpassed by Europeans; and I have known and experienced that, without their practical information and assistance, the most important results of our proceedings could never have been attained. The admission of the prayer of the petitioners to be made eligible to serve as Grand Jurors and Justices of the Peace, will be a desirable and important measure. I should not be disposed to qualify this concession with the condition of their acting in conjunction with a European Justice of the Peace, because I question whether some of the gentlemen officiating in those situations, and who are chosen indiscriminately from the service, are better qualified than many of the natives. It would be an incentive to others to qualify themselves for such honourable stations, and thus would commence that incorporation of the natives in the general system of the British Government, which would prove the best guarantee for its permanency."
These were the sentiments of a man whom he had the honour to call his friend, who, for many years, filled the highly im-
976
portant situation of Political Resident at Paroda, and who, consequently, had the best opportunities of judging of the character and talents of the natives of India. He should be very sorry if the House were to suppose that he read the letter which he had received yesterday from Bombay, from any other motive than to shew the excellent qualifications of the natives. In conclusion, he had only to observe, that nothing should ever deter him from expressing his sentiments, when he conceived that the welfare, the happiness, and the prosperity of the people of the vast British possessions in India were at stake. To many of the natives of India he owed a debt of gratitude which he could never repay; and, therefore, as long as he had a voice to raise, or a vote to give, he would never abandon their interests in that House.
The petition to be printed.

ATTENDANCE OF THE HOUSE AT THE CORONATION.
Mr. C. W. Wynnbrought up the Report of the Select Committee appointed to examine how the Members of the House might, with the most conveniency, see their Majesties' Coronation, and what orders were to be observed therein. The Committee reported,

1. "That it will be expedient that the House should assemble at eight of the clock in the morning of the day of their Majesties' Coronation, and that the Members should attend in Court dresses, out of mourning, and that they enter by the great gate of Westminster Hall.

2. "That to secure free passage for the carriages of the Members, Mr. Speaker be requested to issue tickets to such Members as shall apply for the same.

3. "That the names of the counties of the United Kingdom be put into a glass; and that, after Mr. Speaker shall have left the Chair, the same be drawn by the Clerk, and that no Member do presume to go out of the House until the county for which he serves shall have been called; and that, for the more regular proceedings of the Members, Mr. Speaker be requested to stay, after he shall have left the Chair, till all the Members shall have proceeded in the order according to which their counties have been called.

4. "That no Member of this House do remain in or do cross or pass through any part of the passages leading from the door of the Lobby of the House to the

977
gallery prepared for the Members in Westminster Abbey, and that the Serjeant at Arms do keep the said passages clear of Members.

5. "That the Deputy Serjeant at Arms do precede the Members, and conduct them to their seats in the Abbey.

6. "That, when the Members go to the Abbey, they proceed two a-breast, without crowding, through the Members' Waiting Rooms, across St. Margaret's-street, to the Abbey door in Poet's Corner, under a covered way, and so to the gallery prepared for their accommodation over the Altar in the Abbey, and that they return by the same way to the House.

7. "That after nine of the clock in the morning, the passage to the Abbey by Poet's Corner be kept clear for the exclusive use of the Members of the House of Commons until they shall have passed to their seats, and again, after the solemnity shall have been concluded, until they shall have returned to the House."

Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, that as Aldermen were generally anxious about their bodily comforts, he supposed that it would be neither disorderly nor inconsistent on his part to inquire whether, as the Committee had reported that Members should be in their places in that House so early as eight o'clock in the morning, they had taken the precaution of providing a breakfast for them.
Mr. Jameswished to take that opportunity, as he had not been present last evening when the subject was brought before the House, to express his sentiments with regard to the great expenditure which the estimate for the Coronation would entail on the country.
The Speakersaid, that it, would be more regular for the hon. Member to express his opinions on this subject when the Report of the Committee of Supply should be brought up.
Mr. Jamessaid, that the Report of the Committee would not probably be brought up until three or four o'clock in the morning, when all the Reporters would be fast asleep, and when, therefore, it would be perfectly useless to say anything about it.
The Speakerrepeated, that the regular time for the hon. Member to express his sentiments with regard to the Estimate in question was, when the Report of the Committee should be brought up.
Mr. Jamessaid, that he held in his
978
hand the printed Estimate, which had been distributed that morning, and that he was not aware that it was to be brought forward last night, or he would have attended in his place.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the sum total of the Estimate for the Coronation had no relation whatever to the vote to which the House was now called upon to agree. The hon. Gentleman would have an ample opportunity for discussing that Estimate when the Report of the Committee should be presented, but the circumstance to which he had alluded, as inducing him to discuss that Estimate now, was perfectly disorderly.
Mr. Jamescontended, that he had a perfect right to make the observations which he intended to make with regard to this Estimate, on the present occasion. His observations might not, perhaps, be as palatable within as they would be without that House. It would be just as convenient for the House to hear his observations now as on the occasion of the presentation of the Report of the Committee. The more he considered such a vote as that of 50,000 l. for the expense of the Coronation, the more he was convinced—[cries of "Order! order!"]
The Speaker,interrupting the hon. Member, said, he was sure that he must perceive that the general feeling of the House was, that this question should not be discussed on this occasion, but that its discussion should be postponed to the regular opportunity, which would be afforded on the bringing up of the Report of the Committee.
Mr. Jamesstill thought, that it might be just as convenient for the House to hear the observations which he had to make on this occasion. He was about to express opinions in unison with those of some hon. Members about him, at least with those of the hon. member for Middlesex.
Mr. Humesaid, he quite agreed with his hon. friend with regard to the Estimate in question, but he was of opinion, that the proper time for discussing it would be when the Report of the Committee was brought up.
Mr. Jamesobserved, that if it was so exceedingly disagreeable and unpalatable to the House to hear his observations now, he should of course postpone them until three or four o'clock in the morning, when—
Mr. Humewished that the Report and the Resolutions of the Committee should be read again, in order to see whether they had acted in strict accordance with former precedents.
That having been done,
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, that the Committee had strictly followed those precedents which had been adopted at former Coronations.
Mr. Humesaid, that the Coronations of King William 3rd, and of Queen Anne formed the principal precedents for the guidance of the Committee. This was the first time that it was thought necessary to require that the Members of that House should go in Court dresses to the Coronation.
Lord Mahonsaid, that it was always usual for the Members of that House, when they attended on his Majesty at levee, or on other public and solemn occasions, to go in Court dress. Such a mark of respect was required of every subject who appeared to offer his duty or homage to his Sovereign; and if it were required on even the most ordinary occasions, how much less should it be omitted in concluding a high and solemn compact between the Monarch and the people? When he considered the dignity belonging not only to the office but to the person of the King, he would never consent, more especially in such times as the present, to abate one jot of the outward forms which surrounded the throne. A feeling of respect to his Majesty had hitherto been deeply rooted in the English character, and he trusted never to see the day when that feeling should be lessened, or when the courtly ceremonies which had sprung from it should be laid aside.
Mr. Jameswished to know why it was thought necessary that the Members of that House should be in attendance there at eight o'clock in the morning, when, as he understood, the Coronation would not take place until three or four in the afternoon?
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, that their Majesties would set out with the procession from the Palace at ten o'clock, and it was therefore important, that the Members of that House should be in their places at an early hour.
Mr. Humewas inclined to move, that that part of the Report which required that the Members of that House should go in livery to the Coronation should be
980
omitted. He was surprised at the innovation which had been introduced by his right hon. friend, the member for Montgomeryshire in this regard. Good God! was it possible, that his right hon. friend, who was such a stickler for past precedents and past usages, should have been he author of such an innovation as that of calling on the Members of that House o attend at the Coronation in Court dresses?
The Speakerwas not before aware, that the hon. Member regarded the direction to appear in Court dress as an infringement of the privileges of the House; but the hon. Member should recollect, that the recommendation proceeded from a Committee of the House, and was of no force unless confirmed by the House.
Mr. Humeknew it was a recommendation of the Committee, but nevertheless he wished that the Livery should be thrown aside altogether.
Sir Edward Sugdensaid, that a Court dress was the usual dress in which Members appeared on solemn and public occasions, and more especially on such an awful and public occasion as that of the Coronation of the King and Queen of these realms.
Mr. Jamessaid, that it appeared from the Report of the Committee, that 410 places had been reserved for the Members of that House. He wished to know what would become of the remainder of the Members, and whether, if any Members went without Court dresses, they would be excluded?
Lord Althorpsaid, that the objection started by the hon. Member involved no difficulty in its solution, for that, of course, there was a general understanding that no Member would go unless in Court dress. At the Coronations of King William and of Queen Anne, which had been referred to as precedents, the Members of that House all attended in Court dresses.
Mr. Hume:The Members of this House then attended in the ordinary dress worn by them on public occasions at that period. They are now called upon to attend in an extraordinary dress.
Sir Charles Wetherellwas astonished that the Knight of the Shire for Middlesex should refuse to go in his proper and appropriate costume. The gallant Member should not only wear his bag wig and sword, but he should also go with his spurs on.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, that the Court dress had been mentioned in the Resolutions, in order to prevent any misapprehensions on the subject.
Sir Charles Forbesremarked, that only 410 places had been reserved for the accommodation of the 658 Members of that House. He wished to know what was to become of the remaining 248 Members? Were they to be excluded, and, if so, was it the Reformers, or the Anti-reformers, that would be excluded on that occasion?
Lord Althorpwas of opinion, that 410 places would afford ample accommodation for all the Members who would attend at the Coronation.
The Report and the Resolutions agreed to.

WINE DUTIES.
On the Motion for the House going into Committee on the Reform Bill,
Mr. Keith Douglassaid, that he heard it reported that the noble Lord intended to abandon the proposed increase of duty on Cape Wines. He hoped the report was true, as the wine-growers at the Cape would be ruined by the imposition of higher duties, and great injury would accrue to a particular class who were the consumers of such kinds of Wines. He was moreover quite certain, that the Exchequer would receive no benefit; he, therefore, begged to know if the noble Lord had really abandoned this impolitic impost?
Lord Althorpwas still of opinion that it would be wise to increase the duties, but as he found there was a difference of opinion on the subject, it was not his intention to propose any increased duty on Cape Wines in his Bill. He meant to separate the question of the equalization of the duties of French and Portuguese Wines from the question concerning Cape Wines. Although the measure was postponed for the present, he trusted that, whatever Government might be in office, would adopt the plan of so increasing them in the year 1834, as proposed in the present Resolutions.
Mr. George Robinsonrequested the noble Lord to inform him when he intended to bring forward these questions.
Lord Althorpsaid, he intended to proceed without delay with respect to French and Portuguese Wines, and with respect to Cape Wines he should proceed as soon as convenient.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—BILL, FOR ENGLAND—COMMITTEE—THIRTY- FIFTH DAY.
The House went into Committee on the Bill.
The Chairmansaid, the question was, that, in the 23rd clause, all the words after "And be it enacted" be struck out, for the purpose of inserting the following:—
"And be it enacted, that the persons hereafter mentioned shall be, and they are hereby, appointed Commissioners for the purposes hereinafter mentioned, with regard to elections for counties; and that the said Commissioners, or the major part of them, shall, within three months after the passing of this Act, inquire and determine in what manner each of the counties enumerated in schedule G, to this Act annexed, shall thereafter be divided into two divisions, in order that each division may return two Knights of the Shire to serve for the same in all future Parliaments, as hereinbefore mentioned; and the said Commissioners, or the major part of them, shall divide each of the said counties accordingly, and shall also determine at what principal place of election the Court for the election of Knights of the Shire for each division of the said counties shall be holden, and at what principal place of election the Court for the election of Knights of the Shire for each of the three Ridings of Yorkshire, and for the parts of Lindsey, and for the parts of Kesteven and Holland, in the county of Lincoln, shall be holden; and the said Commissioners, or the major part of them, shall have power to unite and incorporate (for the purposes of election only) with any county, or with any division of a county to be by them made, any outlying portions of any other county which may be locally situate within the former, and shall deliver a report of such their determination to one of his Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State, who shall forthwith lay the same before his Majesty in Council; and it shall be lawful for his Majesty to issue his Royal Proclamation, making known the determination and the Report of the said Commissioners, from the date of which Proclamation every county enumerated in the said schedule G, shall, for the purposes of this Act, be and remain so divided into two divisions, and each division shall return two Knights of the Shire to serve for the same in all future Parliaments; and every county, or division, of a county, shall, for the pur-

983
poses of this Act, include any portions of any other county that may have been so united and incorporated therewith as aforesaid, and a copy of such Report of the said Commissioners shall forthwith be laid before both Houses of Parliament, if then sitting, or if not sitting, then within ten days after their sitting.
"And be it enacted, that the same persons shall be, and they are hereby, appointed Commissioners for the purposes hereinafter mentioned, with regard to elections for cities and boroughs; and the said last mentioned Commissioners, or the major part of them, shall inquire into and determine, for the purposes of this Act, the limits and boundaries of all the cities and boroughs in England and Wales, which, after the passing of this Act, shall have or shall retain, or shall acquire by virtue of this Act, the right of sending a Member or Members to Parliament; and the said last mentioned Commissioners, or the major part of them, shall have power to incorporate (if they shall think fit) with any such city or borough, for the purposes of this Act, any one or more parishes or townships, the whole or any part of which may be situate within or adjoining to such city or borough, and shall have power to determine (if they shall think fit) what place within the limits of any borough, acquiring by virtue of this Act, the right of sending a Member or Members to Parliament, shall be the principal place for holding the election for such borough; and in case they shall not determine such principal place, then the same shall be determined by the returning officer for such borough; and the said last-mentioned Commissioners, or the major part of them, shall, on or before the next after the passing of this Act, deliver a report of their determination on the matters aforesaid to one of his Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State, who shall forthwith lay the same before his Majesty in Council; and it shall be lawful for his Majesty to issue his Royal Proclamation, making known the said determination and Report of the said last-mentioned Commissioners, from the date of which Proclamation every such city or borough shall (until Parliament shall otherwise decide) be and remain bounded and limited, for the purposes of this Act, according to such determination, and shall, jointly with such incorporated parish or town-
984
ship, parishes or townships, be a city or borough, for the purpose of electing a Member or Members to serve in all future Parliaments; and a copy of the said Report shall forthwith be laid before both Houses of Parliament, if then sitting, or, if not sitting, then within ten days after their sitting."
Lord Althorpsaid, that as they had now arrived at the clause which had for its object to appoint the Commissioners for the division of counties, he would take that opportunity of making a few explanations. It had, at first, been intended that this task should be undertaken by Members of the Privy Council—a body that would not have been responsible to Parliament—but this had been objected to, and, perhaps, on sufficient grounds. It was now, therefore, proposed that a set of Commissioners should be appointed, and that their Report should be subsequently submitted to both Houses of Parliament for approval; after which, the course would be, an Address from Parliament to the Crown, praying it to adopt the divisions laid down in the Report of the Commissioners, if approved of by Parliament. It had been stated, it would be better to give directions to the Commissioners as to the mode of dividing the counties; but it appeared there would be considerable difficulty in wording the clause in such a way as to give them sufficient discretionary power to act; and, as the Commissioners would have to report to both Houses, it was not considered necessary, as it might interfere too much with their duty. The course which they had to pursue was simply to make a fair and equal division of the counties, and also to arrange the limits of new boroughs, and add to the old boroughs such places as were so connected and interwoven with the boroughs as naturally to form a part of them. As the Commissioners had been selected from a class of men as little biassed as possible, either by politics or party feelings, there was every probability that they would perform their duty impartially and fairly. After the Commissioners had done their work, they would send their Report to the Home Secretary, to be laid before both Houses of Parliament. A notice had been given of a motion to discuss each county and borough separately; but this he must object to decidedly, for the delay which it would cause would be interminable, In fact, the

985
discussions on schedules A and B would be but a joke to it. The House would see the whole Report, and judge if it were fair and impartial; and, if any division should be made erroneously or partially, that division could be revised on receiving the Report. There would be some difficulty in making this arrangement ["hear," from an hon. Member]. The hon. Member cheered, but he could assure him, that the Government, when they undertook the task, were well aware that it could not be effected without difficulty. The difficulty was, that between the passing of this Bill and the confirmation of the Report no new Parliament could be elected, because by the passing of the Bill, the old Election-laws would be repealed, and till the division of the counties, and the boundaries of the boroughs under the new law were determined, no new election could take place. This was a difficulty which he had thought it to be his duty to state to the Committee; but, after all, he thought that it would turn out to be rather a theoretical difficulty than a practical one. Having said thus much, he would now proceed to state to the Committee the names of the proposed Commissioners; but before doing so, he begged to observe, that it had been found necessary to have a very large number of Commissioners, in order to facilitate the work of the division of the counties and the settlement of the boundaries of boroughs. If the Commissioners had been but few, an immense portion of time would have been occupied in their having to visit every part of the country, before they could form the divisions; but by having a large number, some would be able to go in one direction, and some in another, by which division of labour the period occupied would be considerably shortened. In order, however, to prevent any misapprehension, he begged further to observe, that though a few of the Commissioners would be deemed sufficient to make the necessary inquiries on the spot, no decision of theirs would be taken, unless it was confirmed by a majority of the whole body of the Commissioners. The number of that body was to be, according to the proposition of Government, thirty-one; so that, before any division could be recommended in their Report, it must be sanctioned by sixteen at least. In the selection of the gentlemen who were to act as Commissioners, he could assure the House that the Government had been actuated by no party feel-
986
ing whatever; indeed, most of them were men who had taken no part in public life, and of whose political opinions the world was not generally informed. For himself he could say, that although he necessarily knew the political opinions of some out of so large a number, yet there were many others with whose sentiments he was in no way acquainted. In short, the ground upon which they had been chosen was that of character, knowledge, and science. He would now read over the names. They were:—
The Right Hon. J. Abercrombie, Lord Chief Baron of Scotland.
E. J. Littleton, Esq.
Davies Gilbert, Esq.
W. Courtenay, Esq.

H. Martin,

Masters in Chancery.

W. Wingfield,

Sir J. W. Gordon, Bart.
H. Hallam, Esq.
F. Beaufort, Esq. R. N.
Launcelot Baugh Allen, Esq.
H. Gawler, Esq.
T. Birch, Esq.
W. Leake, Esq.
Benjamin Annesley, Esq.
J. T. Chapman, Esq.
R. Dawson, Esq.
T. Drummond, Esq.
J. E. Drink water, Esq.
T. F. Ellis, Esq.
H. B. Kerr, Esq.
T. B. Lennard, Esq.
W. Ord, jun., Esq.
J. Romilly, Esq.
R. J. Saunders, Esq.
The Rev. R. Sheepshanks.
W. E. Tallents, Esq.
H. Tancred, Esq.
J. Wrottesley, Esq.
F. Martin, Esq. Royal Engineer.
R. A. Scott. Esq., Royal Staff Corps,
W. Wild, Esq.
The Chairman read the clause with these names inserted,
Sir Edward Sugdenthought, that the alteration which the noble Lord had made in his plan, with respect to the Commissioners, had taken away many of the objectionable points that had formerly existed. It was true that the House would be delegating to another set of persons its own authority; but since it still retained for itself the right of supervision and alteration, that delegation was not so objectionable. He thought that the number of the Commissioners was very great, but

987
was willing to take the noble Lord's word, that without that number the business could not be got through with sufficient rapidity. What he chiefly found fault with was, the plan for two, or three, or four Commissioners taking a particular district under their survey, and regulating all the boroughs and counties in it. If left to themselves, it was not improbable that they would set out in parties of two or three, as suited their convenience, making their duties in some measure subservient to their pleasures. Their suggestions, it was true, were to be submitted to the general body of Commissioners—buthe was afraid that the system adopted would be, to take it for granted that those who had actually been on the spot were the proper judges; and he was quite sure that it was agreeable to human nature, for men who had their own reports and views to submit for adoption, not to examine with too scrutinizing an eye those of the very persons who were at a future stage to take their reports and views into consideration. One of his objections to the appointment of these Commissioners was, that it would be difficult for the House to disengage itself from the report they might make in any particular case; but that was an evil which would always attend delegated powers. He did not think that there would be much probability of the report that might be laid on the Table being sent back for alteration, unless some case of gross injustice should appear on the face of it; but the Commissioners would not be called upon to revise their proceedings by either House of Parliament, merely from one or two cases of partiality or other grievance being brought forward. It would be invidious for the House to find fault with the acts of those to whom it delegated a great trust, unless some charge could be sustained of having acted with general partiality. Anotherstrong argument against sending the report of the Commissioners back for revision would be, that it would restrain the Monarch from dissolving Parliament—it would strip the Crown of one of its most important prerogatives; and could the House, upon such slight grounds, say that so much of the constitutional authority of the King should remain suspended? The right of voting constituted by the latter end of the clause did not correspond with the right of voting conferred by the former part of the clause. If it were necessary for the Commissioners to go out of the borough upon which they
988
were operating, they might go to any distance within seven miles to create a sufficient constituency; for instance, if there were a large manufacturing place in the neighbourhood of any borough, they might go into it, and by taking all the 10 l. houses within it might make a constituency, not merely of 300, but of 3,000 voters. As Ministers could not interfere with the conduct of the Commissioners, or indeed say one word to them about their conduct after they were appointed, it would happen that some Commissioners would look upon this clause as entitling them to add as many voters as they pleased to the constituency of a borough, and that other Commissioners would look upon it as restricting them to keep the constituency as close as they could to 300 voters. With regard to the last clause relating to the Commissioners, he meant the 26th, a monstrous power was given to them. It gave those Commissioners who were not sworn to secresy, or to any thing else, and of whose names, though, no doubt, they were very respectable, the House had never heard before, the right of examining and inquiring into the charters and muniments of every Corporation in the country. He had no doubt that the worthy Alderman, the member for the City of London, would oppose this clause, as it might materially affect the interests of the citizens of London. The power was too great even to intrust to the House of Commons, and still less to Commissioners appointed in this way, and not bound to preserve unpublished the information they might obtain. They were not merely allowed to enforce the production of the documents necessary for the attainment of the information they required, but also of all public documents. He entered his protest once for all against the scheme of ascertaining by the inquiry of these Commissioners the boundaries of a single borough. If it was necessary to ascertain these boundaries, let it be done by a solemn trial before a jury: for upon these boundaries, the legal right to tolls, &c., often depended; and it was not fitting to leave the existence of such rights to the will of thirty-one, or of eighteen, or of even two or three irresponsible Commissioners. It was not sufficient to say, that the power of these Commissioners was only for the purposes of this Act, for the whole of the documents of the Corporation might be called for by the Commissioners, and they might

989
be made public, and a Corporation or a borough ruined through the decision of two or three of these Commissioners. Suppose a trial respecting the boundary of a borough, the decision of the Commissioners would have great weight with a jury, in consequence of their having the power of obtaining such accurate information. A person about to litigate with a Corporation might go to the Commissioners, and induce them to call for papers and documents, and thus be able to obtain important information which might govern him in his ulterior proceedings. There was a most important cause before the courts, relative to the borough of Liverpool, and what was to hinder the Commissioners from calling for all the papers and documents on both sides, and thus settle a case in a week which had been before a Court of justice for years? He remembered an observation on this subject by Lord Eldon, it was the case of the town of Newcastle, the Corporation of which very unaccountably produced their title-deeds, when they were not called upon to do so, and in consequence they lost an estate of several thousands a-year. There was not a lawyer in the country who would not tell the owner of an estate to keep his muniments in a box, and to shew them to no one, for it was not uncommon to find an unexpected flaw in a title, which might lead to the loss of the estate if it were made known. There was no occasion to arm these Commissioners with such great and unnecessary powers as those which this clause would give them. If the noble Lord said, in the words of the Bill, that the Commissioners were to be intrusted with this power, and the boundaries were to be determined only for the purposes of this Act, that would not be found an effectual answer, and would not prevent injustice. He confessed he did not know precisely what was meant by the purposes of this Act, or how far they were meant to extend. No necessity whatever had been shown to confer on any set of Commissioners these enormous and unconstitutional powers; and though the clause as amended was not so objectionable as at first, yet he thought it was one which deserved the most serious consideration. Although his general objection to this clause had been removed by the alteration which the noble Lord had introduced into it, he was bound in justice to himself to state, that his other objections to it remained unaltered. He should not pro-
990
pose any amendment upon it; for as he disapproved of the Bill entirely, he had hitherto studiously refrained from any attempt to amend it. He had made himself master of the details of the Bill, as his duty required, and had expressed his objections to those details, because the Bill excited his disapprobation, and not because he wished to delay it factiously. The noble Lord would amend the clause, if he thought that there was any weight in the objections which he (Sir E. Sugden) had suggested, and if he did not wish to hear of them again at another stage of the Bill.
Lord Althorpwas glad to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman declare his opinion, that Ministers, by agreeing to submit the Report of these Commissioners to the approbation of the two Houses of Parliament, had made a great and beneficial alteration in this clause. The hon. and learned Gentleman objected to the power given by this clause to the Commissioners to divide the boundaries of boroughs and counties, contending that some limitation ought to be placed upon the numbers of the constituency which they were entitled to create. He was, however, of opinion, that some discretion must be left to the Commissioners as to their proceedings. The hon. and learned Member had stated, that he did not know what was meant by the words in the Bill—"for the purposes of this Act." He (Lord Althorp) thought that those words were very clear, and that there could be no doubt that they meant, for the purposes of the election of Members to serve in Parliament. When the counties should be divided, the division would be made for election purposes, not with any intention of erecting separate counties. So, too, with regard to the fixing of the boundaries of boroughs. It was impossible to tell, until each borough was inspected by the Commissioners, what places ought to be added to it; and that very consideration was a complete answer to all the arguments which the hon. and learned Member had raised upon the unlimited power confided to the Commissioners. The hon. and learned Gentleman had also complained of the mode suggested of taking the nearest road within seven miles of the place. What had been done was in conformity to the legal mode adopted by the Courts of Westminster Hall. It was necessary to have some mode of ascertaining the distance, and this course was taken, believing that it would prove satis-

991
factory The hon. and learned Member had also objected to the 26th clause, because it gave the Commissioners a right, not only to examine witnesses, but also the charters and muniments of Corporations. The object of that clause was, to get at the rate-books, and at such books as would give the Commissioners information as to the number of 10 l. houses. He, for one, did not think that it would be necessary for the Commissioners to inspect any charters or documents. The Commissioners would not have the power of defining the limits of existing boroughs, and therefore there would be no necessity to call for charters to prove their limits. The hon. and learned Gentleman had said, that the Commissioners might act on different principles, in cases where they did not find 300 houses in the new boroughs. He admitted that, when Government had once appointed these Commissioners, it could give them no other directions for their conduct than the words of this Act; and, therefore, it might be possible that one set of Commissioners might take in the constituency of a whole town in the neighbourhood of a newly-created borough, and that another set might only take in a part of that constituency. But, admitting the possibility, what was to be said as to the probability of such an arrangement? Did the hon. and learned Gentleman mean to assert, that when the Commissioners once entered a town, they were to end their inquiries as soon as they had gained 300 constituents? Such an arrangement would be most inconvenient, not to say most impracticable. He was of opinion, that when the Commissioners found it necessary to take in part of a town, they would also feel it their duty to take in the whole, and not to draw an imaginary line, giving the elective franchise to all who lived on one side of it, and withholding it from all who lived on the other. For these reasons, he thought it absolutely necessary that some discretion should be left to the Commissioners.
Sir Charles Wetherellmaintained, that this clause involved principles of the very highest importance. As he had hitherto objected to this Bill in toto, he was sure that the Committee would not be surprised at hearing that it was his intention to object to its machinery in toto also. He would, however, go further, and say, that if he had clothed himself as a Reformer,
992
he could not brace himself up to carry this proposal into effect in the same manner that this Bill did. If he understood this Bill aright, the Crown would have no power to dissolve Parliament for three months after it was passed into law. Now that was a novelty in the Constitution. From its earliest rudiments to the present time, no instance had ever occurred of the Crown being limited for one hour in its prerogative to dissolve the Parliament at its pleasure. He therefore objected to the novel principle which this clause introduced into English legislation. If this principle had met with the approbation of the Keeper of the Great Seal, he would ask that learned officer, "Can you, the Lord Chancellor of England, consent to originate a bill, by which the power of your Royal Master to suspend the existence of Parliament—a power which hitherto has never been disputed for an hour, is locked up, and abrogated, For three months at least, and may be even for a longer time?" He would never give his consent to such a clause, so long as he was a Member of the House of Commons. He was most anxious to support the privileges of that House, but he was equally anxious to support the just prerogatives of the Crown; and he had always understood, that one of those prerogatives was, to dissolve Parliament at its pleasure. The existence of this clause in the Bill was, with him, an insuperable objection against the Bill itself. Besides, if the Bill were to pass with this clause in it, how would they be able to move for a new writ to supply the vacancy of any hon. Member who might die, or accept the Chiltern Hundreds, before the next dissolution?
The Attorney General: The enactments of this Bill only relate to future Parliaments, not to the present Parliament.
Sir Charles Wetherell: If that were so, his argument fell to the ground. As many Gentlemen might not be inclined to dispose of this clause in the summary way in which he was inclined to dispose of it, he would now proceed to state his objections to the machinery of it. First of all, the Committee ought to have a greater knowledge of the individuals appointed Commissioners, than that which it could acquire by hearing their names read hastily over at the Table. For that reason alone, he thought that time ought to be given for the consideration of this clause. There

993
were some of the Commissioners whom, even the noble Lord thought, might be possibly accused of radicalism. Now a gentleman might be a very honourable and a very clever man, and yet a monstrous Radical. In running his eye through the list, he could not help seeing, that there was in it a very good list of many very warm political Radical Reformers. That was an objection to the list, and, in saying so, he did not mean to impeach the moral honesty, or the private respectability of the Commissioners. He likewise objected to the appointment of thirty-one Commissioners to new-fangle the whole geographical and political map of England. Amongst other names on the list, he perceived that of a learned and respected friend of his own, the Chief Baron of Scotland, an individual to whom he might reasonably object, as he was naturally connected by his station with the Scotch Reform Bill, rather than that which was now under consideration. The mention of this name, he was willing to believe, had originated in mistake; for the Chief Baron's situation as a Judge must necessarily render him quite unfit to discharge the duties that were to be intrusted to these functionaries. Ministers, he was sure, never meant to place a judicial character in a position that would unavoidably subject him to jealousy and suspicion. Then, was there not reason to apprehend, that the portion of the Commissioners who might be placed on active duty of such a nature, would be too severely overworked? On one day they would be whirled off to Chester in the Telegraph, and on another they would be shot away to Northampton in the Rocket. All this wear and tear of locomotion, it was much to be feared, would be productive of the most formidable consequences. He presumed it was in honour of the 1st of September, that Ministers had selected these thirty-one sportsmen to mark, wing, bring down, and lacerate every borough, town, and county in England, and return to Downing-street after having bagged their quarry. The county Members, who voted for such a course of proceeding, were, in effect, treating their constituents as animals ferœ naturœ, who might be packed in one preserve, or transferred to another, at the arbitrary will and pleasure of these erratic sportsmen, duly licensed by the Treasury. It was also, he believed, a source of general dissatisfaction through-
994
out every county in England, that the Commissioners whom Government proposed to appoint, should be empowered to name the places in which the elections were to take place. He objected, also, to the unrestrained power of the Commissioners to divide counties as they pleased, and they ought to be so divided, that the proprietors of large estates should retain the influence attached to them. But there might be a Radical Commissioner making the division, who would be of a very different opinion. Many objected to the division of counties altogether, because it gave a balance in favour of the landed interest, which it ought to have; but a Radical Commissioner might so divide a county as to neutralize the intention of the Legislature. He mentioned no names, but it was quite possible for the Commissioners so to divide some counties, as to diminish instead of confirming the influence of the landed interest. The Commissioners had power given them, not only to divide the counties, but to make up the required numbers of the constituency in certain old boroughs, and to mark the limits of all the new boroughs. When schedules A and B were before the House, a brook, a bridge, or a street, was sufficient to justify it in dislocating one part of the town from the other, and thus disfranchising it according to the arbitrary principle of the Bill. How unjustly that principle operated in the cases of Guildford and Dorchester, the House must recollect. It had here, by instructions to the Commissioners, an opportunity of repairing the injury then committed. But did Ministers compel them to join these dislocated parts of towns to the parent body? No such thing; though they were empowered to join places, many miles off, to make up a constituency. There was another power equally monstrous. The Commissioners might add the whole or part of any adjoining parish or township, to a borough, to make up exactly the required constituency, or make it three, four, five, or six thousand. They might open their compasses, and draw a circle on the map just of sufficient extent, or they might open them as wide as they pleased. As it was not possible to detect and measure crookedness by a crooked rule, so it would be difficult to find a standard by which to measure perfect novelty; but certainly that was the most extravagant, unmeasured delegation of power ever practised by any Legis-

995
lature. The most unbounded room was opened for favouritism; the Commissioners might support and maintain the influence of a Whig, and annihilate that of a Tory; but to lean on either side was objectionable. He complained, that the people of England should be made a stock in trade for three trading, dealing, travelling Commissioners to dispose of as they thought fit. He must also mention another extravagant power given to these Commissioners, which had been adverted to by his hon. and learned friend near him—the power of demanding all the archives of every Corporation of this country, to be submitted to their inspection. Would any of the country Gentlemen on that side of the House like to have their title-deed chest opened and ransacked? The archives of a Corporation were their titles to their property. There were several Masters in Chancery on the list of Commissioners, and they, in looking over the title-deeds, might choose to alter the real limits of a borough, for the purposes of this Act, although they could not alter or limit its legal jurisdiction. He had no doubt that nothing was further from the intention of the noble Lord, in framing this clause, than to occasion all this collateral mischief, but it was likely, nevertheless, to happen. These were the objections which, even if he were disposed to effect any Reform, would disable him from adopting this plan. Instead, however, of having any secure ground of legislation to go upon, the House must half legislate, and give powers to complete its legislation to Commissioners, who would be open to the charge of favouritism and intrigue. There was no previous instance of the constituent body being dealt with except by a perfect act of the Legislature. He should not attempt to amend the clause, for he objected to the principle altogether. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by again asserting, that it was a monstrosity to make the people of England, as it were, a mere stock-in-trade, to be partitioned out, and divided, and sub-divided, at the election of a clique, or quorum of Commissioners.
Mr. Hudson Gurneysaid, that he was disposed to give the largest possible powers to the Commissioners named in the clause as they would, in that case, be better enabled to execute their functions, and to do their work well, particularly as their decisions and acts were not to be final
996
until they had received the approbation of Parliament. With respect to the power of Commissioners to call for Corporation charters, that ought not to be objected to, for these charters were often abused, and frauds committed under their sanction. He was a friend to the corporate system, and therefore desired to prevent all abuses in it, and thought this power of examining their charters would tend to put down usurpations.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, that he should never have contemplated consenting to the delegation of such powers as were conferred by this clause on the Commissioners, but for the consideration that their acts were to receive the sanction of Parliament, a proviso which he must confess obviated a great part of his objections. The clause, however, as it at present stood, was not particularly well adapted to enable the House to revise those decisions in detail, should any exceptions be taken to any one of them, for the clause rather bound the House to look at the general decisions of the Commissioners in the mass, than to take each particular case into consideration. The House should recollect that these Commissioners would have to deal with considerably more than 100 places. In the first instance, there were twenty-five counties to be divided: next, thirty-eight new boroughs to be instituted in England; next, above twenty places in Wales, not before having any share in the Representation, to be made part of districts which, with almost forty boroughs in schedule B, made between 120 and 130 places the Commissioners would have to deal with. When the report had been made, of course the House would direct it to be printed, that it might be shewn all over the country, and parties who felt themselves aggrieved—for, giving the Commissioners credit for impartiality, they must inevitably commit someerror—might present petitions against what they thought unjust to the House. On these petitions the House would have to strike an average; or rather, determine upon the Report by a majority of these petitions being rightly or wrongly founded. Thus, if twenty complaints had no foundation, and ten had, the House was to say, that the whole of the Report should be adopted; or, vice versâ, to reject the whole Report if the well-founded complaints should predominate, not specifying which were wrong. But would it not be better to refer back only such particular

997
cases as required revision? He disliked, too, the constitution of the Commission, the numbers of which the list was composed being too great. He was aware of the advantage of having a large number of persons to examine the particulars of different places on the spot, but a small number ought to be set over them to decide disputed or difficult points. He was willing to take the first five names on the list, and make them the Commissioners upon whom all the responsibility should rest—styling the rest sub-Commissioners. When responsibility was divided, it was lost; and so many being engaged would render them liable to charges which would not otherwise be thought of. Suppose, for instance, that the hon. member for Staffordshire was one of the Commissioners for dividing that county; though, being Member for it he would hardly meddle with it; but suppose him to be concerned in dividing a county where any friend or relative of his had great influence—no decision that could be come to would be satisfactory, for it would be said, that he had influenced the Court of the Commissioners to adopt his views. But the constitutional objection urged by his hon. and learned friend (Sir Charles Wetherell) had struck his mind most forcibly—he meant that relating to the suspension of the power of the Crown to dissolve Parliament, which it must not be supposed would last only three months. Three months was the period within which this Report would have to be made; but some time must be allowed for its being printed and considered by the country, after which it would have to be considered by this House; the Overseers would have then to make out lists of the voters, which must afterwards be stuck on the church doors; and the decisions of the Barristers, who were to determine on contested rights of voting, must be made before the Act could come into force. Under this Act the Crown then would not have the power of dissolving Parliament. It would be most dangerous thus to make a precedent for suspending the exercise of the Royal prerogative. It was certainly highly improbable, that the Crown would desire to increase its prerogatives in this instance, but as it was possible, he would suggest that the power should not be taken away; and that, in the event of its exercising that power before any or all the final steps necessary to complete this Act be taken,
998
the business of election shall proceed in the old form. He did not deny the inconvenience of that course, and no doubt it would be a strong reason for dissuading the Crown from so exercising its prerogative; but was it attended with more inconvenience than might result from depriving the Crown of so important a part of its prerogative for six, eight, or nine months? He would suggest, therefore, to his noble friend, to bring in a clause to the effect, that if the Crown should dissolve Parliament before the completion of these final steps, the Act shall not take effect.
Sir Robert Inglisobserved, that the hon. and learned member for Montgomeryshire had said justly, that there was no rule laid down for the guidance of the Commissioners in executing their functions, whether property, population, or franchise, was to be taken as the principle upon which the divisions were to proceed; and he certainly wished to learn from the noble Lord opposite, whether it was intended, on the part of Government, to furnish the Commissioners with any rules whereby their acts might be guided.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the intention of Government was, to interfere with these Commissioners as little as possible; they would, therefore, be left at full liberty to draw up instructions for themselves. The right hon. member for Montgomery had expressed a wish to see the responsibility of their acts concentrated in the persons of seven of the Commissioners, and to make the rest sub-Commissioners. Now, though he was not disposed to deny that, in many cases, it was very unadviseable to divide responsibilities, yet he must say, that, in the present instance, great benefit would result from the extension of the responsibilities imposed on the Commissioners by the Act, and he should therefore be averse to making any alteration in that respect. The right hon. Member had also urged, as an objection, that the House would have to take the general decision of the Commissioners into consideration, instead of examining each particular case in detail, when any complaint was made of their decision; but he must be allowed to say, that if the House should pledge itself to the consideration of each particular case, the time of the House might be occupied during a whole Session in examining the merits of the complaints, should they be numerous, as probably they

999
might be. With respect to the last objection of the right hon. Gentleman, he must observe, that, even at the present period, the power of the Crown to dissolve the House was virtually restrained, until the Mutiny Act had passed; and as the objection was more a theoretical than a practical objection, he did not see why he might not bring the theoretic powers of the Constitution to bear upon the question. He must, however, express his entire disapproval of the suggestion of the right hon. Member, that incase a dissolution of Parliament became inevitable before the Commissioners had executed their functions, the elections should proceed on their present principle; for how was it possible to accede to such a proposition, after the Parliament had passed a law declaring the present constituency unfit to possess their franchises on their present footing?
Colonel Sibthorpexpressed a hope that the Bill would not pass the House, or if it did, that it would neither pass the upper House nor obtain the sanction of the Crown. He recommended the Government to withdraw it altogether. He decidedly objected to Members of the House being appointed Commissioners, more especially county Members. There was an individual among these Commissioners for whom he had great private friendship,—whose integrity, and whose general, as well as parliamentary knowledge, all must respect—he meant Mr. Davies Gilbert; but even to him he objected as a Member of this Commission, as well as to any other Member of this House in that capacity. He particularly objected to the hon. member for Staffordshire, because he was a county Member; not that he thought him inclined to do wrong, but because his name as a county Member would have too great an influence. He objected also to Ministers having the appointment of these Commissioners; for although he acquitted the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of wishing to do anything underhand, yet the impression on the public would be, that the secrete consiliarii had been at work. The Commissioners, too, were to make their report to the Secretary of State for the Home Department; but would it not be more constitutional for them to come at once to that House? There were a few select, honest, excellent, persevering, determined, unchangeable men, men who would not cut—who were not here to-day
1000
and there to-morrow—but who stuck to those benches every night in spite of the injury they did their constitutions. But the other side were secure in their numbers. All they said was,"Come along my lads! care not for them or what they say:" and the sic volo sic jubeo being passed along the line, the question was put, the hon. member for Middlesex took down his names and numbers, the question was carried against them, and they were handed down by the Press, perhaps to the obloquy of posterity. He objected to every clause in the Bill; but if there were one set of clauses in it more objectionable than others, it was these; and he hoped that if they could overturn the phalanx opposed to them by numbers, they should do so by integrity and prudence.
Mr. Freshfieldthought the power of the Commissioners too extensive. A great objection was, that though an appeal from the award of the Commissioners was allowed, if this House was dissatisfied with it, in the first instance, there was no provision made for an appeal from the second award. The time for making the award was three months; but suppose the Commissioners did not make their award within that time, was this to be remedied by passing another act of Parliament? Another and more serious objection was this: suppose the case of the demise of the Crown at a particular period. The House had no power to sit beyond six months; and suppose that they were occupied longer than that in considering, and referring, and reconsidering awards, what, constitutionally, would be the situation of the country?
Mr. Hughes Hughessaid, he could not approve of the appointment of four of the gentlemen included in the proposed list of Commissioners. He objected to a learned Judge, the Lord Chief Baron of Scotland, being at the head of a parliamentary Commission of this description. He had the strongest objection to two hon. Members of the House, and one of them, too, a Representative of one of the counties which were to be the subject of division, being members of a Commission upon whose report they would afterwards have to sit in judgment. He objected, also, to the appearance of a reverend gentleman in that list, whose sacred office could not have supplied him with any peculiar qualification for the task, and who ought to have far higher claims upon his attention. He

1001
begged to be understood as objecting to these honourable gentlemen, not as individuals, but on account of the stations they filled. In introducing the amended clause, then before the Committee, the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer alluded to certain further alterations in it, which he (Mr. Hughes Hughes) had taken the liberty of suggesting on a former day, but with respect to which the noble Lord was mistaken in supposing that he intended to give a notice of a motion on the subject. One of his suggestions was, that the Commissioners should make a separate report in the case of each of the twenty-five counties enumerated in schedule G, and to this he thought the noble Lord offered no sufficient objection, when he said that this would lead to debates, compared with which the discussions on schedules A and B must be looked upon as brief. Did the noble Lord then suppose that, because all the twenty-five counties were the subject of one ponderous report, the case of each county would not be separately considered? If his suggestion had been adopted, instead of referring back to the Commissioners the whole report; if, with respect to any one of the counties, Parliament should think, that it required to be revised and amended, the report upon such county only would be so referred back, while the remaining reports would be adopted, which would surely be more convenient. To the subject of another suggestion which he had taken the liberty of throwing out, his hon. friend, the member for Penryn, had adverted. Clause twenty-five not providing what should be done in the possible event that the report of the Commissioners, after one revision, should not be adopted by both Houses of Parliament, he had recommended an addition to the clause, to the effect that every county, the report with respect to which should not be so adopted should remain entire and undivided, and should in future return four Members and this he submitted to the Committee as one mode of finally disposing of the important question as to the division of counties. And here he would repeat the opinion that he had expressed on the first appearance of the amended clause then immediately under consideration, viz. that it was a very important improvement of the clause for which it was substituted inasmuch as it removed the unconstitutional objection which he felt, in common
1002
with so many hon. members of the House, to the irresponsible and absolute power of the Commissioners, whose reports must now be approved by Parliament; but still he could not help saying, and he thought the public, would go along with him in the opinion, that it was paying dearly for the Ministerial adhesion to the generally obnoxious provision for the division of counties, to be obliged to submit to the necessity which it involved of an additional delay of six or nine months before a reformed Parliament could be called into existence. He must still think that Ministers had much better, even now, surrender the joint of the division of counties. He had some verbal alterations to suggest in the clause, but, believing that the single point then under consideration was the list of Commissioners, he should not do so at that time, but conclude by intimating that, if any amendment should be proposed, having for its object the erasure of all or any of the four names to which he had objected, he should feel bound to support it.
Mr. John Fanecondemned the legislating in so uncertain and prospective a manner as this clause professed to do. They had heard of ex post facto law, but here was an Act to declare something to be law in future which was unknown. He considered that this delegation of the legislative power was a surrender of the privileges of Parliament. He wished to know, as the clause declared that the two Houses of Parliament were to address the King, and then the report was to become law, what would be the law suppose only one of the two Houses should agree to address his Majesty. He apprehended in that case, they should have disfranchised the old constituent body without having created a new one.
Lord Althorpbelieved, that three months was ample time to make a Report, and when Parliament enacted that something was to be done, it presumed that it would be done. Many objections of this kind might be made with reference to other subjects besides this. The hon. member for Penryn (Mr. Freshfield) had asked, what would be done in the event of the demise of the Crown. Why Parliament would meet immediately. If the Commissioners had not completed their labour in three months, and the House had not done their's in six months, undoubtedly great difficulty would arise,

1003
But if Parliament saw this, they would, of course, adopt measures to obviate the difficulty. Therefore, the objection of the hon. Member appeared of very little weight. To suppose that the Commissioners would not make their award in six months, was to suppose that they would purposely obstruct an Act of Parliament. The hon. member for Oxford had recommended Ministers to give up the division of counties. He (Lord Althorp) confessed that he was surprised that there were some in that House, and out of the House, who were friendly to the Bill, who had approved of every part of the Bill at first, but who now professed the strongest possible objection to that clause which related to the division of counties. This, however, was not a time to argue that point. Then, with regard to the names of the Commissioners. The Lord Chief Baron of Scotland was objected to because he was a Judge; it could not be on the ground of the business of his Court interfering with his duties as Commissioner. Had it been the Chief Baron of England it might be different. Then, he could not see upon what ground the two Members of Parliament were objected to. They were perfectly competent. If it was supposed that his hon. friend, the member for Stafford, would show such bad taste as to undertake the division of Stafford, it was supposing what was improbable. The Commissioner objected to on the ground of his being a clergyman, the rev. Mr. Sheepshanks, was a Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge—a man of great science, and likely to be of the greatest service, where a scientific person was required. If he had been a clergyman intrusted with the cure of souls, it might be improper to draw him from that duty.
Mr. Hughes Hugheshad not objected to the Commissioners as individuals, but on account of their stations.
Mr. Cresset Pelhamsaid, it was not unreasonable to assume, that the Commissioners might be unable to divide counties consistently with the principles of the Bill; and if a report came before the House which the House could not approve of, it must send that report back to the Commissioners for revision, which was such a delegation of their power as they ought never to tolerate. He should rather see the House undertake the division itself than submit it to others, and this evil was increased when, there appeared some
1004
symptoms that Ministers were not agreed among themselves on the subject of the appointment of Commissioners. When the Bill was first before them, it had been proposed, in the case of Appleby, that such persons should be appointed to decide disputed cases, as to the extent and population of boroughs, and then they were told, that Commissioners ought not to be appointed, for the House was the proper tribunal to decide upon such subjects—but now it was affirmed the House was unfit to decide, and Commissioners were to be named. He had no doubt the whole was, and would be, attended with infinite difficulty.
Mr. Huntconcurred with the hon. member for Oxford. He supposed these Commissioners were to have a salary. ["No" from Lord Althorp] He was glad to hear that denial, as it would tend to shorten the time the Commissioners would take to make their reports. That would depend, too, on the manner in which they proceeded to their business. If they went in small parties, and collected information to be afterwards determined on, then the majority of the Commissioners would decide in the dark—for the facts of each case could be known only to a few, and if the whole body visited every place, there would be no end to their labours. They would not make their reports in three years, much less in three months.
In reply to questions from Mr. Hughes Hughes,
Lord Althorpsaid, that the Commissioners were to have no salary; they were to be paid their travelling expenses. They had not commenced their duties, though they might have made some inquiries.
Sir Thomas Fremantleprotested against giving so great a power to Commissioners, without allowing the House fuller time for consideration, and to ascertain the qualifications of these gentlemen for the office. Two-thirds of the Commissioners the House had never heard of before. Some were officers on half-pay, some barristers, and some attornies. He did not say they were unfit for the duties imposed on them, but he suspected they had generally a political bias. The two first names were those of persons connected with the Government, and the appointment in general was primâ facie evidence, that their opinions were not hostile to the present Ministry. They were to have great authority to decide upon the constituency

1005
of boroughs, and they might be supposed liable to be influenced by a wish to make such a selection of additional voters as would give the town or borough a future political character. He was happy to hear they were not to have salaries, but it was idle to assert they were nominated by the House, when the fact was, they were appointed by the Ministry.
Mr. Huntwished to be understood as not objecting to the Commissioners being paid. He had no objection to those being paid who did important public duties. His great objection was, that many persons received large salaries who did no duties for them.
Mr. Robert Grosvenorsaid, that if some of the Commissioners were favourable to the opinions of Government, there were others who held different opinions, and who would be a sufficient check on any political bias in their brother Commissioners. The hon. Baronet had objected to half-pay officers being nominated—he had yet to learn that a half-pay officer was not as competent to perform the duties of a Commissioner as any other man, if he had, in other respects, the requisite qualifications. No reason could be assigned why they might not have these as well as any other class of society.
Mr. Wranghamsaid, it was true that the Commissioners might be compelled to make their report within three months, but then it might be so crude and imperfect as to require further consideration. They had already an illustration of this in the "additional information," that it had been found necessary to obtain respecting the population of boroughs. That, however, was not the chief reason for his troubling the House with a few remarks. He wished to be allowed to say a few words respecting the Commissioners to be appointed. Although he by no means wished to attach a suspicion of unfairness to the gentlemen appointed as Commissioners, yet he thought he was perfectly justified in calling the attention of the Committee to the fact, that a very great proportion of those so named, were gentlemen who were publicly known to participate in the political sentiments of the present Government. There were at least sixteen of the number whom he could state to be more or less connected with his Majesty's Government, and friendly to Reform. He had no doubt, indeed, that the majority were persons favourable to
1006
that measure. He begged it might not be imagined that he was actuated by any sort of invidious feeling in making these remarks, for there were but two gentlemen on the list with whom he had any personal acquaintance, but without imputing the slightest degree of interested or improper motive, he would say, that persons so circumstanced must have a certain political bias, and it was idle to suppose that they could divest their minds of it.
Sir John Wrottesleycould not help thinking it a very bold undertaking, particularly for a young man, and a young Member of Parliament, to assume to represent the opinions of gentlemen, with, whom, at the same time, he acknowledged himself to be unacquainted. He knew many of the gentlemen named in the list to be men of high attaintments, and to be the farthest in the world from suffering themselves to be influenced by any political bias. But would his noble friend have done well to have selected men of a political bias the other way? Would he not, on the contrary, have subjected himself to much ridicule? And he (Sir John Wrottesley) would much rather see the measure meet with opposition than ridicule. All the gentlemen appointed were men of high character—a character of which they were as tenacious as the hon. Gentleman himself; that even if it could be supposed that they would be capable of any partiality, that and the other House of Parliament would have a remedy before the public could suffer any detriment.
Mr. Wranghammaintained the right of all, whether old or young Members, to comment on the list; the promulgation of it invited criticism. If his opinions, from a want of the experience of the hon. Baronet, were not as valuable, they were at least as honest.
Sir John Wrottesleysaid, he was ready to allow that as these names were brought before the House, they were a fair subject for criticism, and every hon. Gentleman had a right to comment on them. He only complained because the hon. Gentleman had commented on the names of persons of whom he knew nothing.
Lord Althorpsaid, that it was only from the hon. Member (Mr. Wrangham) he had for the first time heard of the political opinions of many of the proposed Commissioners. He believed, however, that the majority of them were favourable to Reform; and, indeed, it would be diffi-

1007
cult to meet thirty-one gentlemen of intelligence out of that House, the majority of whom were not favourable to Reform. If the majority of the Commissioners were hostile to the measure, they would be the least fit persons that could be chosen.
Sir Edward Sugdensaid, that when the noble Lord called upon the House to adopt these names, the House had a right to canvass the opinions of the individuals. If he saw names in the list which were not known publicly to be qualified to perform the duties of Commissioners, he would not willingly adopt them. He must also say, that if gentlemen were proposed, to whom no remuneration was to be given, he could not help looking at the election of such persons with suspicion. The noble Lord could not suppose that those who engaged to perform the duties of Commissioners, ought not to be remunerated in some way or other. If they were not to receive compensation in money, they must receive it in some other way, and the expectation of remuneration was calculated to give a bias to their judgments. He wished for the nomination of persons who would act impartially between all parties and all interests.
Mr. Baring Wallsuggested, that those members of the Commission who were barristers, should not go to the counties in the circuits in which they practised, and that those connected with particular counties should not go as Commissioners to those counties. There were some names on the list which he thought would not act well together. For instance, Mr. Bellenden Kerr and Mr. Davies Gilbert, than whom no two men could be more opposed to each other. He admitted that the first named gentleman was a man of considerable talents and acquirements; but at the same time he must say, that he was a most unaccommodating and unquiet individual. He meant nothing personal or disrespectful, but it was necessary, when the constituency of England was to be remodelled, that, at least, the Commons should be allowed to comment on the gentlemen by whom that important office was to be undertaken. There were particular objections to the gentlemen whom he had named, being employed to divide the county with which he (Mr. Baring Wall) was connected.
Lord Althorphad known Mr. Bellenden Kerr, and acted with him in a public society, and he had always found him an ex-
1008
tremely active, intelligent, and useful man, and, in his opinion, not at all open to the objection which the hon. Member had made against him. It had been argued that the Commissioners should not divide any districts with which they were themselves connected, but this arrangement was left to themselves, as men of honour and character, acting under a heavy responsibility.
Mr. Blamiresaid, that the division of some of the counties could be as well effected by the Commissioners, by the aid of maps, in London, as by visits to the counties themselves, For instance, he thought that a division of his county (Cumberland) might be easily and speedily effected in that way, without giving the Commissioners the trouble of a journey down to it.
Mr. Hudson Gurneysaid, notwithstanding the opinion of the hon. member for Cumberland, he thought a personal knowledge and inspection of the counties to be divided absolutely necessary.
Mr. Blountstood up to defend his worthy friend Mr. Bellenden Kerr, from the charge made by the hon. Member opposite. He had been personally and intimately acquainted with Mr. Kerr for many years, and the attack made was as unjust as it was uncalled for. It was insinuated that he would cause strife among the Commissioners, which was a very odd sort of charge. He had no doubt the gentleman in question would perform any duty he undertook, conscientiously and firmly, and he would resist any impropriety, by whomsoever attempted.
Mr. Baring Wallasked whether Mr. Bellenden Kerr was brother-in-law to Mr. Gawler? (another of the Commissioners).
Mr. Blountreplied, that he was not.
The original question was, to leave out all the words in clause 22 which follow the words "be it enacted," for the purpose of introducing other words; such other words consisting of clause 23 as originally proposed to be amended. The question now was, that the words proposed be inserted as part of the clause.
Sir Charles Wetherellbegged to ask the noble Lord, if the districts to be taken by the Commissioners were to be determined by a majority of themselves.
Lord Althorphad before stated this was matter of arrangement to be determined on their own parts.
Question agreed to.
The Chairman then put the question, that "the names of the Commissioners (as read) be inserted in clause 23."
Mr. Baring Wallsaid, that he thought it was most important that the Commissioners should be persons of some standing, and such as the country could repose confidence in. Why was Mr. Mogg's name not in the list? He perceived in the list the names of some very young men: he thought this very injudicious. In fact, he could not imagine a selection less calculated to give public satisfaction than that which had been proposed. The noble Lord should give the House time to consider the character of the individuals proposed to act as Commissioners under this Act, before he pressed the list which had been read for the adoption of the House. He felt convinced that the candour which always characterised the conduct of the noble Lord would induce him to reconsider the subject. What, he would ask, would the people think of that list? Would they feel satisfied that the persons appointed were competent to discharge the important duties they would have to perform? He did not think they would. He did not mean to throw any imputation on those persons. They were, no doubt, very respectable individuals, but, notwithstanding, by no means competent, as far as he could form an opinion on the subject, to perform their duty to the satisfaction of the country.
Lord Althorpsaid, he would not deny that some of the proposed Commissioners were young men, but that circumstance did not, in his opinion, form a valid objection to their ability to discharge the duty they would have to perform in an efficient manner. Several of these gentlemen were engaged in the artillery and in the engineers, and were, in consequence, peculiarly fitted for the service for which they had been selected. He had no apprehension whatever that the proposed list would meet with the disapprobation of the public. He considered the few objections which had been taken to the list sufficient evidence that it was unexceptionable. He certainly never expected it would meet with the approbation of the hon. Member.
Question agreed to.
The question—"That sixteen of the Commissioners form a quorum, and that they make a report in writing to the House within three months after their appointment agreed to."
Clause 23rd as amended was then agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The Chairman began to read the 24th clause, when
Sir George Warrendersaid, that he wished to call the attention of the House to a notice of an Amendment which he had given on a former night, to the effect "That all boroughs which had more than 400 resident inhabitants should continue to return Members as heretofore." He took that opportunity to assure the House, that whatever opposition he had felt it his duty to give to the Bill, it was not his intention to throw any vexatious impediments in the way of the measure in its progress through the House. He still, however, remained of opinion, that towns which contained 400 electors would return as independent and free Representatives as any place in the kingdom,though,after the decision that had been come to in respect of these boroughs, he felt it would be useless to trouble the committee any further. He knew that his conduct in this regard had called forth the disapprobation of some young Members on his side of the House. He, however, as an independent Member of that House, did not seek to please them, but to do his duty. He would conclude by stating, that it was not his intention to press his Amendment.
The Chairman read the 24th clause, and put the question, that after the words "be it enacted" there be inserted "that the Commissioners have power to incorporate with any city or borough any parish adjacent to such city or borough, within the distance of one mile."
Mr. James L. Knightsaid, that the effect of this clause would be to give a very dangerous power to the Commissioners. For example, it would be in their power, if they thought fit, under this clause, to add to the borough of Marylebone, which was to be constituted by this Act (and which was already large enough), the parishes of Kensington and Chelsea. Such a power vested in those Commissioners might be attended with the most alarming consequences. It would invest them with an authority to alter the whole constituency of the country. He wished to know from the noble Lord opposite, if it was intended that the Commission should possess such powers.
Lord Althorpreplied, that it would be extremely inconvenient to limit the powers

1011
of the Commissioners in particular places. He was quite sure there was no danger to be apprehended from allowing the clause to stand as it was at present.
Mr. Tennysonsaid, he was aware of the difficulty in limiting the power of the Commissioners in any particular place, but he thought they ought, in settling the new limits of boroughs, to have authority to separate from such boroughs any districts in which an undue local influence predominated. He was induced to express this opinion, because, in the borough he had the honour to represent (Stamford), a part of the town was situated across a river, and in another county; this was not within the limits of the borough, but if the Commissioners, in the exercise of their authority, should annex it to the borough itself, they would replace Stamford directly under the control of a noble Lord, to whom the chief part of the parish in question belonged. He therefore trusted, that as the borough at present contained a sufficient constituency, the Commissioners would not interfere with it in the way he had mentioned, which would have an effect wholly contrary to the principles on which the Bill was founded. Some caution ought to be given to the Commissioners, to observe generally, that their divisions or additions should be free from any undue controlling influence,
Lord Althorpcould not agree in the opinion expressed by his hon. friend. He thought the Commissioners, to discharge their important duties properly, should enter upon them utterly ignorant, not only with respect to the localities of any borough, but of the influence that was prevalent in its vicinity. The only instructions Ministers would give were, that the Commissioners should perform their duties with the utmost impartiality, and according to the principles of strict justice. They would have little chance of giving general satisfaction, if they suffered such considerations as his hon. friend had alluded to, to influence their decisions.
Sir Richard Vyvyansaid, that no speech had been delivered in that House which made more against the Bill than that which had just been delivered by the hon. Member opposite, he being a member of the Government which had proposed it. He fully agreed with the opinion of the hon. Member, and feared Stamford would not be the only place where undue influence might be apprehended. He
1012
knew something of borough representation, from being connected with Cornwall, and he was positive, that in many of the boroughs of that county, the plan of Government would open the door to the introduction of that sort of influence which the hon. Member hoped would not be exercised about the limits of his own borough, but with a different effect as to the parties concerned. It was, however, well that the noble Lord had dissented from the hon. Member's suggestion, but it showed that some of the members of Government were not disposed to be rigidly impartial to their political opponents. Among the gentlemen who were to be appointed Commissioners to execute such duties as the hon. member for Stamford had described, he regretted to see that there were some Members of Parliament. He had a high respect personally for these gentlemen, but he feared their knowledge and acquirements, as representatives of the people, rendered them peculiarly liable to be biased in their decisions. In making such appointments, the House should be particularly cautious. The Commissioners would, in fact, be similar to those appointed under the celebrated India bill of Mr. Fox, and almost as objectionable. There was no occasion to insert their names in an Act of Parliament. It appeared to be done to obtain undue influence. Suppose that a change of Ministry should take place, the persons who entered into office could have no voice in the appointment of these Commissioners for, being named in the Bill, their office was not derived from Ministerial authority. The whole clause with reference to these appointments, was hasty and injudicious, and would throw an immense power into the hands of the Ministers. As the hon. member for Stamford had remarked, unless very carefully and exactly administered, it would tend to place certain boroughs more under direct nomination than they were at present.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the Commissioners in the present instance would not be at all similar to those to whom the hon. Baronet had alluded. The Commissioners under Mr. Fox's bill were Commissioners for managing the whole affairs of India; they were to be permanent and independent of the Crown. Now the present Commissioners would be merely appointed to discharge the duties assigned to them in this Bill, and after they had performed those duties their office would cease.

1013
Colonel Sibthorp begged to take this opportunity to give notice, that on the bringing up of the report, he would move, that no Member of that House, or Member's son, should be appointed to fill the situation of a Commissioner for the purpose of deciding the division of the counties, or fixing the boundaries of cities or boroughs which it was determined by the Bill should be divided.
Mr. Tennysonsaid, his only object had been to express his anxiety that the Commissioners should exercise their duties with great care, and, in general, to avoid introducing predominating influences into any particular borough. Their object ought to be, to extend real Representation, and to be careful that any additions they made should not have a contrary tendency. His objection was made on the part of the whole people of England, as it might affect the new constituencies generally; and he repeated, if the Commissioners should take the course, at Stamford, to which he alluded, he would bring the matter under the consideration of Parliament.
Mr. John Campbellprotested against the doctrine of the hon. Member. The Commissioners, in the exercise of their functions, should have eyes, but no ears. Their object and duties were, to include particular portions of towns to be annexed to boroughs, and, in the exercise of this power, they ought to decide without considering what particular election interests might be affected.
Mr. Dixonbegged, as the hon. member for Stamford had declared he would, if there was any interference with the borough he represented, which he did not approve of, bring the matter under the consideration of the House, distinctly to say, he should oppose him; and if the Commissioners were to be liable to such imputations from one of the members of Government, the only way to relieve Ministers from the difficulty of their position would be, for the hon. Member to put an end to his official connexion with them, when, as a private Member, he might take what course he pleased.
Sir Charles Wetherellbegged to congratulate the House upon the very decided manner in which the hon. member for Stamford had laid down the principle on which he desired the Commissioners to act, which he (Sir Charles Wetherell) scrupled not to say, would be a great perversion of their duty. An hon. member
1014
would say, "these Commissioners shall cut my borough as I like;" and then, up gets another and says, "I will have my borough divided in the way it suits me;" but the hon. member for Stamford insisted, that "his borough was not to be interfered with at all," and said he did this injustice to his constituency at that place. This was certainly an admirable way of putting the case; and he thought the House must agree with him, that the principle of the hon. Gentleman was totally at variance with every just ground on which the Commissioners ought to proceed. He believed the whole enactment was nothing more than a job under the name of Reform, and he had no doubt the observations of the hon. member for Stamford were quite consistent with the ideas of many Reforming Members of that House, although the noble Lord had expressly disclaimed such sentiments. Independent of this, however, he objected to the appointment of these Commissioners, because an unlimited and uncontrolled power was placed in their hands.
Mr. Stanleyagreed with the hon. and learned Gentleman, that if the popular opinion was to be formed from the remarks of the hon. member for Stamford, that it would be adverse to the appointment of the Commissioners; but he was sure, that that matter would be completely set at rest, both as regarded the Commissioners and the public, by the unanimous expression of opinion which had now been given from both sides of the House, as to the line of conduct which those Commissioners ought to pursue.
Mr. Tennysonsaid, that in what he had suggested, he had not been influenced by private or personal motives or considerations. He had urged what he had stated, on behalf of his constituents and the people of England generally. He surely could not be suspected of personal motives, after the sacrifices some of his connexions had made.
Mr. Lowtherthought, some of the members of Government were rather severe upon their colleague, the hon. member for Stamford, who had only abided by the rule which had been laid down, as a reason for adding 4,000 inhabitants to White-haven, which, in the debate on that part of the Bill, it was said by Ministers, would prevent Whitehaven from being improperly influenced. One district, it appeared, was passed over, and another added, to

1015
suit a particular purpose, which was found fault with when applied in another way, by the hon. Member.
Sir James Grahamsaid, the hon. Member referred to a case which had been decided in a former debate. In that case, he (Sir James Graham) had stated, that he had so strong a feeling with regard to the influence of property as bearing upon the elective franchise, that he had recommended the borough which had been alluded to, should be extended, because it was notoriously the property of one noble individual, whose ancestor had boasted, that the inhabitants of that town could only claim one of the four elements as a right—that was air; fire, earth, and water, he had the complete disposal of. He had frankly declared, that if the town were left alone, and allowed to return one Member, that it would become a nomination borough, and he, therefore, wished the House to be very careful, when making a reform of the Representation, how it perpetuated or strengthened an abuse. The circumstance he had described ought not to be tolerated. He had, he presumed, answered the hon. Gentleman; and now, with respect to the question immediately before the House, he differed altogether from the view which his hon. friend (Mr. Tennyson) had taken of the line of conduct to be pursued by the Commissioners, and he quite coincided in the view which had been taken on that point by his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. Lowthersaid, if the right hon. Gentleman could find no better arguments than the idle boast of an ancestor of his, all he could say was, that was no answer to the objections he had urged.
Lord John Russellwas quite sure that in what his hon. friend, the member for Stamford, had stated, he had not been influenced by any personal feelings or considerations, but that he was merely anxious to express the sentiments of his constituents.
Mr. Curteissaid, that part of this clause seemed to him to militate against the principle on which this Bill professed to proceed. It would appear as if the Commissioners, in the exercise of the very considerable power with which they were to be intrusted, might, if it suited them, omit the agricultural parishes in the local divisions they made, to the entire exclusion of the rural population.
Lord Althorpassured the hon. Gentle-
1016
man, that he misunderstood the clause. The Commissioners had no power whatever to skip over any agricultural parishes.
Mr. Curteissaid, then the clause was not properly worded, and he must recommend hat some alteration should be made, so that the country gentlemen might understand it.
Lord Althorpsaid, that he thought no words could be plainer. They were—"The said Commissioners, or any sixteen of them, shall have the power, if they think fit, to settle, for the purposes of this Act, the limits or boundaries of the several boroughs mentioned in the schedules hereunto annexed."
An Hon. Memberbegged to inquire, whether any limit was to be set to the districts to be included, or whether it depended on the discretion of the Commissioners to include any proportion they thought proper.
Lord Althorpsaid, in reply, that any division the Commissioners thought proper to include, for the purposes of this Act, would become part of the town.
Sir Charles Wetherellwished to ascertain, if it was in their power to make a place as large as they thought proper, or could they contract it at their pleasure?
Sir Richard Vyvyansuggested, that it would be better to appoint a Committee of the House to decide upon the decisions of the Commissioners. How could the House itself decide upon upwards of 300 cases?
Lord Althorpconsidered the appointment of a Committee unnecessary. The House could certainly find time to hear any appeals that were made to it.
Sir Charles Wetherellasked, if there was to be a separate report made on the case of each borough?
Lord Althorpsaid, there was.
The Chairmansaid, the question was, that the words proposed be inserted after the words "be it enacted."—Agreed to.
Verbal Amendments were agreed to, and the Question, that "Clause 24, as amended, stand part of the Bill," also agreed to.
Lord Althorp Lord Althorp moved, that the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. Alderman Woodthought, that they ought then to proceed with the two next clauses; as they formed only a portion of the clause to which they had just agreed it was not likely that they would provoke any discussion. The fact was, that people

1017
out of doors were quite dissatisfied with the slow progress of the Bill, and they should endeavour to proceed at a somewhat more rapid pace, if possible.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, that it was now more than half-past one o'clock, and though the worthy Alderman and his friends might remain, he would certainly go out of the House; and the worthy Alderman, and his friends out of doors, might express what dissatisfaction they liked with his personal conduct.
Lord Althorpfelt bound, in pursuance of the contract originally made on the subject, to stop at that hour of the morning.
The House resumed: the Committee to sit again the next day.

THE CORONATION.
Mr. Bernalbrought up the Report of the Committee of Supply.
On the question that the Resolution be agreed to,
Mr. Jamesprotested against the gran of 50,000 l. for the expenses of the Corot nation. He thought, that in the present impoverished state of the country, it was a shameful waste of the public money to vote so large a sum. He thought, that 5,000 1. was amply sufficient. Our difficulties were so great at the present moment, that we could not venture to go to war, however we might be insulted by foreign Powers, because Government knew, that the first shot which might be fired against England would be the signal for wiping out the National Debt. Under such circumstances, it became us to husband our resources in time of peace.
Resolutions agreed to.