Commons Sitting of 16 March 1831

MINUTES.
Bills. The Sugar Duties, read a first time. The Waterloo Bridge New Street, read a second time. The Canada Lands, and Canada Revenues, read a third time.
On the Motion of Sir J. NEWPORT, the Nineteenth Report of the Commissioners of Judicial Inquiry in Ireland, on the subject of the Prerogative Court there, was referred to a Select Committee, and the Committee appointed.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. GUEST, the Population, according to the census of 1821, of each County in England and Wales; shewing against each County the annual value of real property and of income, respectively, upon which the Property-tax in 1815 was assessed:—On the Motion of Mr. Alderman WOOD, the Duty charged on Hops grown in the United Kingdom in 1830; distinguishing the old and the new duty, the several districts, and the amount of duty charged in each district respectively; the total number of statute acres of Land in the United Kingdom, under the cultivation of Hops in the year 1850; distinguishing the number of acres in each parish, and in each collection; the quantity of Hops exported from the United Kingdom to foreign parts, in the year ending 5th January, 1831; distinguishing the countries to which the said Hops have been exported; also, British from foreign growths, and the quantities to each country respectively, and the date of the year in which the said British Hops were grown; also, an account of the quantity of Hops imported into the United Kingdom from foreign parts, to the same period, and distinguishing the countries from which the said Hops have been imported, and quantities respectively; the total number of barrels of Beer exported from England and Scotland to Ireland, and from Ireland to England and Scotland; distinguishing the number of barrels so exported to each kingdom, from 5th January, 1830, to 10th October, 1830; the total number of barrels of Beer exported from England, Ireland, and Scotland, to foreign countries; distinguishing the said countries, and the quantities to each country respectively; and also, each Kingdom from which the said Beer was exported, with the amount of Drawback paid thereon, from 5th January, 1850, to 5th January, 1851; the quantity of all the different sorts of Beer made in Great Britain, from 5th January, 1830, to 10th October, 1830, stated in barrels, the rates of Duty per barrel, and the total amount thereof; the number of barrels of strong, table, and intermediate Beer, chargeable to the Duties of Excise, brewed in Great Britain, from 5th January, 1830, to 10th October, 1830; distinguishing the number of barrels brewed within the limits of the chief office, and within each of the several collections, particularizing the quantity brewed by public brewers, licensed victuallers, intermediate brewers, and retail brewers in each, collection, and shewing the quantity of Malt used in each collection in making such Beer; also, the number of Brewers, Retail Brewers, Licensed Victuallers, and Intermediate Brewers, in Great Britain; distinguishing the number of each, within the limits of the chief office of Excise, and in each of the several collections, and setting forth the number of Licensed victuallers who -brew their own Beer, from 5th January, 1850, to 10th October, 1830; the number of Brewers, Licensed Victuallers, and persons licensed under the Act "to permit the general Sale of Beer by retail" in the United Kingdom; distinguishing the number of each within the limits of the chief office of Excise, and in each of the several collections, and setting forth the number of licensed victuallers, and of persons licensed to sell Beer by retail, who brew their own Beer, and shewing the total quantity of Malt used for the brewing of Beer by such parties respectively, and particularizing the quantities used by brewers, licensed victuallers, and persons licensed to sell Beer by retail, in each collection, from 10th October, 1830, to 5th January, 1831; also, the total number of gallons of proof Spirits of the manufacture or distillation of the United Kingdom, that paid Duty for home consumption, in each kingdom, in each year, from 5th January, 1828, to 5th January, 1831, the rate of Duty per imperial gallon at proof, and the total amount of Duty at that rate for each kingdom, and shewing the total number of imperial proof gallons of such Spirits, and total amount of Duty thereon for the whole United Kingdom, for each of these years; the total number of proof gallons of Rum, Brandy, Geneva, and all other foreign spirits that paid Duty in each kingdom, in each year, from 5th January, 1828, to 5th January, 1831; the rate of Duty per imperial gallon at proof, and amount thereof; and total number of gallons of all kinds,
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and total duty thereon, for each kingdom; and total number of gallons of each kind, and total duty thereon; and total number of gallons of all kinds, and total duty thereon, for the United Kingdom, in each of these years; also, the amount of Duty paid on Wax and Spermaceti Candles, from 5th January, 1850, to 5th January, 1831; the amount of Duty paid on foreign Wax, imported in the last three years; also, the number of Bushels of Malt charged with Duty, and the amount of the Malt Duty, between October and January, 1829, 1830, and 1831, and The whole quantity of Malt made between 5th January, 18.10, and 5th January, 1831.
Petitions presented. In favour of the Ministerial plan of Reform, by Mr. Alderman WOOD, from St. Botolph, Aldgate; Cripplegate Within, Cripplegate Without, Bishops-gate, and Langborne; Wards:— By Mr. C. DUNDAS, from Hungerford and Haddington:— By Mr. O'CONNELL, signed by 5,000 persons, from Drogheda:—By Mr. T. DUNDAS, from the Mayor and Corporation of the City of York:— By Mr. Alderman WAITMAN, from the Livery of London in Common Hall assembled; from the Parish of St. Dunstan; and from the Inhabitants of the Artillery Ground: By Mr. C. TYRRELL, from Stowemarket:—By Mr. STRUTT, from Belper, Swanwick, Dugfield, Holbrook, Heage, and Lea, Derbyshire:—By Lord MORPETH, from Sheffield, signed by 13,000 persons in two days; from Huddersfield, by 7,500; from Leeds; from the Freemen of York, resident in Leeds; from Whitby; from Bradford, Eeeleshill, and Tadeaster: —By Mr. HODGES, from Chatham, Tenterden, Aylesford, and Gouldhurst:—By "Mr. WEBB, from the Mayor and Common Council of Gloucester: — By Lord LOUGHBOROUGH, from Dysart:— By Mr. PAYNE, from Chipping Norton:—By Mr. GUEST, from Merthyr Tydvil. By Mr. Alderman WAITHMNA, for the Repeal of the Coal Duties, from the Ward of Bishopsgate; for a Duty on foreign Cordage, from the Hope-makers of the Port of London; and in favour of the Vestries Bill, from St. Paneras. By Mr. W. PATTEN, from Wigan, against the Renewal of the East-India Company's Charter; also, a Petition from. Warrington, with between 11,000 and 12,000 signatures, in favour of Reform, but requiring the Vote by Ballot. By Mr. CAMPBELL, several from the Hebrides and the Western Islands of Scotland, complaining of severe Distress, and praying against the Removal of the Duty on Foreign Barilla; and from Dunoon, against the proposed Duty on Steam Navigation. For a Reduction of Taxes and a Commutation of Tithes, by Mr. C. TYRRELL, from Benshall:—By Mr. GUEST, from Newcastle (Glamorgan):—By Sir W. GUISE, from Berkeley:—By Sir W. FOULKES, from Middleton and North Walsham. By Lord MORPETH, from the Grand Jury Sessions of Wakefield, praying that the Assizes might be held at that Town; and from Guisborough, in favour of the Local Jurisdiction Bill. For Abolishing the Punishment of Death for Crimes against Property, by Mr. BRISCOE, from Ashford and Charing; and from certain persons confined in the Marshalsea, against the Bill to prevent Debtors defrauding their Creditors. In favour of the Grants to the Kildare street Society, by Mr. Sergeant LEFROY, from Moydow, Roscommon:—By Mr. MAXWELL, from the Clergy, Gentry, and Freeholders of the County of Cavan:—By Mr. SHAW, from the Inhabitants of Donegal, in the County of Donegal. By Mr. O'FERRALL, from Navan, against the Grand Jury Assessment. By Mr. MAXWELL, from the Clergy and Inhabitants of Ballymachugh, Cavan, praying for a General Fast. By Mr. SHAW, from the Shipowners of Dublin, against the new Timber Duties:—By Lord M. W. GRAHAM, from Dumbarton;—By Lord LOUGHBOROUGH, from Kirkaldy: —By Sir G. CLERK, from Shipowners of Leith. For the Repeal of the Union, by Mr. O'CONNELL. from the Parish of Munchin, Limerick; and from the Lathmakers and Shipwrights of Dublin:—By Mr. O'FERRALL, from the Tradesmen of A thy. By Sir R. FERGUSON, from the manufacturers of Stockport, in favour of the Bill for regulating the Hours of Work in Cotton Manufactories.

PETITIONS IN FAVOUR OF REFORM.
Sir Ronald Fergusonsaid, he had to present Petitions in favour of the Bill now before

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the House, for effecting a Reform in the Representation, from Haddington, from the Incorporation of Hammermen in the borough of Dundee, (who stated, that though this Bill would deprive them of certain rights, still, as it would produce great practical good, they would willingly resign those rights), and from the Royal burgh of Kinghorn. It was (the gallant general said) a sufficient answer to the observation, as to "corporation robberies," which had been made some evenings since by the learned member for Boroughbridge, to state, that the corporations in Scotland were generally in favour of this measure.
Sir C. Wetherell.—Do not those corporators take oaths to defend those corporate rights, which they now wish to abrogate?
Sir Ronald Ferguson.—I do not know what oaths they have taken; but if they have taken such oaths, the sooner they break them the better.
Mr. O'Connell.—Those persons cannot have taken any oath that can bind them to oppose the law of the land—to set themselves in array against an Act of Parliament. When that which they swore to defend was removed by law, the oath they had taken ceased to operate.
Sir C. Wetherellsaid, he could not remain silent when he heard so Jesuitical a definition of the obligation of an oath, as that which had just been given. He could not allow such a demoralizing principle to go forth unnoticed. He knew very well, that if the law removed a previously existing right, he who had sworn to defend it was absolved from his oath, because that which he had sworn to defend no longer existed; but no man was justified, when no law of abrogation had been passed, in taking steps, of his own accord, to subvert a right which was in full force. It had been understood in this country, up to the present time (and it would continue so to be understood until men's consciences were reformed as well as the Constitution), that a man who took an oath to defend certain privileges, violated that oath when he attempted to overturn them.
Mr. Alderman Woodwas perfectly convinced, that the learned Gentleman did not know anything about the oaths which were taken to support corporate rights. So far as the preservation of the right to elect mayor, sheriffs, &c, was concerned, an oath was taken; but were individuals, on that account, to be prevented from
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stating their opinions, when a system of Reform was proposed—were they to be told, if they expressed that opinion, that they had violated their oaths?
Sir Ronald Fergusonsaid, he believed that in these corporations no oath was taken, except to be faithful to the public good. These petitioners, he maintained, were not abandoning their corporation rights. The corporations would remain, with respect to their privileges, as they were at present; but those individuals wished no longer to be self-elected bodies. He here wished to state, that he was instructed by his constituents to contradict the assertion made by the learned member for Borough-bridge, on a former evening, with respect to a naked woman having been paraded through the streets of Nottingham, as the representative of the Goddess of Reason, some years ago. He was informed that no such circumstance had occurred.
Sir C Wetherellsaid, he never asserted that a naked woman was paraded through the streets of Nottingham; but that ft strumpet, representing the Goddess of Reason, and dressed in a particular manner, was carried about seated On a chair; which was the fact. He begged leave to observe, that he had not obtruded himself upon the attention of the House on this occasion. The challenge had come from the gallant General, who had coupled his name with the presentation of a Scotch petition. He had, he was aware, used strong language, when he heard the gallant General say, that "the sooner a body of individuals broke their oaths, the better." It was the gallant General, and not he, who was accountable for his warmth; and he would say, that if he again heard similar observations, he would not hesitate to use equally strong language in repelling them.
Sir Ronald Fergusonassured the hon. and learned Gentleman, that, in referring to him, he had not the least idea of offending him, or of exciting his irritability. He admitted that he had, perhaps, gone too far, when he said the sooner these oaths were broken the better.
The Attorney Generalsaid, that the learned Gentleman was misinformed as to the exhibition of a female, representing the Goddess of Reason, at Nottingham, during the election in 1800. It was stated to him that no such thing had occurred. He must also observe, that the petitioners had not violated their oaths.
Sir C. Wetherellinsisted, that such an exhibition as he had alluded to did take place at Nottingham in 1800. Why, he had himself sat in the chair in which the representative of the Goddess of Reason had been carried. He could explain the circumstance. The Committee appointed to try the merits of the election for Nottingham, in 1800, sat in the Court of Chancery, and the chair to which he had referred, ornamented with ribands, &c, was produced before that Committee. It was afterwards placed in a corner of the Court, and the individual who then addressed the House, had actually sat in it.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that if the definition given of the obligation of an oath were, as the learned Gentleman asserted, "Jesuitical," the answer which had been given to it appeared to him to be "bigoted," and he by no means wondered at that circumstance, when he recollected the quarter from which it came. Those who would willingly deprive their fellow-men of their best rights, would not, of course, hesitate to use libellous expressions. He, however, had long been accustomed to treat such expressions with perfect indifference.
Petition to be laid on the Table.

IRISH BANKRUPTCY LAWS.
Mr. O'Connellhaving presented a Petition from an individual, complaining of the operation of the Irish Bankruptcy Laws,
Mr. Humeasked the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stanley), whether it was the intention of the Government to redeem the pledge given last Session with respect to these laws; and whether it was their intention to assimilate the laws of England and Ireland, on the subject of Bankruptcy?
Mr. Stanleyreplied, that he had quite enough on his hands already, and he did not think himself bound by all the pledges of the former Government; but he believed the Bankrupt-laws were under the consideration of the Irish Attorney General, and that some measure on the subject would be brought in as soon as possible.
Mr. Lefroysaid, he had lately had some conversation with the Solicitor General for Ireland on this subject, and could say, that it was the intention of that hon. Gentleman to propose the assimilation of the laws of England and Ireland.
Mr. Humesaid, that every Session there was promising, but never performing. He had expected something better,
Mr. Ricesuggested to the hon. member for Middlesex, whether it would not be better to wait a little while, to ascertain the extent of the alterations about to be proposed in the Bankrupt-laws of this country, before they attempted to alter those laws for Ireland, otherwise they might alter this year, only to alter more extensively the next. He was, however, as much in favour of the principle of the alteration as the hon. Member himself.

IRISH VESTRY ACT.
Mr. O'Connellpresented a Petition from a Parish in Ireland, against the Irish Vestry Act, and took occasion to observe, that the new bill, introduced by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Stanley), so far from being an improvement, was merely an alteration of details, which were a matter of indifference, while, in everything that was really important, it aggravated, to a most painful extent, the mischiefs which the Irish complained of, and which formed the continual source of uneasiness and discontent.
Mr. Stanleydenied that the bill was open to this imputation, as the hon. Member would find, when he had examined it attentively, for he could not believe that he had done so, when he heard such observations respecting it. He conceived, however, that the proper course would be, to discuss the principle when they came to the second reading, and he would not, therefore, enter into its details on the presentation of a petition.
Mr. S. Ricesaid, that the object of the bill was, to throw the burthen on the property of the landlords, and take it off the poor tenantry. That was the intention of the bill, and of its framers, and if they had not succeeded, the hon. Member could exert himself when the Bill came into Committee, to make it effective for that purpose.

COAL TRADE OF THE PORT OF LONDON.
Mr. F. Lewismoved for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the Laws affecting the importation and sale of Coals in London, and the districts adjoining.
Mr. Belltook that opportunity to ask the noble Lord (Althorp), whether it was his intention to make any distinction between the duty laid on the exportation of small and large coal?
Lord Althorpreplied, that it was the

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intention of Government to propose a duty of 2s. on small coal, and of 3s. 6d. on large coal.
Sir J. Newportwished the hon. Gentleman would make his Bill general, so that the people might receive all the advantages intended for them by the late repeal of the coal duties.
Mr. F. Lewismust decline acceding to the right hon. Baronet's wishes; what he had undertaken was quite enough for an unsupported individual like himself to perform; and were he to extend his Bill, in conformity to the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet, he should only mar his own object.
Mr. Hunthoped, that no compensation would be given to the meters, who were parties to the most dishonest transactions; and he trusted that they were now to be got rid of.
Leave given.