Commons Sitting of 14 March 1831

MINUTES.
The Committee on the Londonderry (City) Election Petition reported, that Sir Robert Alexander Fergusson, the sitting Member, was not duly returned. A new Writ was accordingly ordered for the City of Londonderry.
Bills. Canada Lands, and Canadian Revalues, read a second time. For appointing Commissioners to continue the Inquiries concerning Charities; and for the Recovery of Charitable Funds read a first time.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. POULETT THOMSON, the foreign Salt imported into Great Britain and Ireland, in the years 1829 and 1830; stating the quantity and quality, and from what Countries exported.
Petitions presented. For Parliamentary Reform, by Sir A. HOPE, from Linlithgowshire:—By Mr. C. CALVERT, from the Parochial Society of St. George the Martyr:—By Sir J. MACDONALD, from Havant:—By Colonel LYGON, from Dudley:—By Mr. JOHN DUNDAS, from Richmond (Yorkshire):—By Mr. CURTEIS, from several Parishes in Sussex:—By Mr. M. A. TAYLOR, from Sunderland, signed by 5,000 persons:—By the LORD ADVOCATE, from Edinburgh, Perth Cupar, Montrose, Glasgow, Dundee, and from several other places in Scotland:—By Mr. JOHNSTONE, three from Dunfermline, and two from Linlithgow:—By Mr. R. GRANT, from two places in Norfolk, and from Cupar:—By Mr. LESTER, from Poole: — By the ATTORNEY GENERAL, from Nottingham, signed by 10,000 persons:—By Mr. BEAUMONT, from Wells, in Somersetshire; from three places in Northumberland; and from North Shields:—By Sir A. GRANT, from Alpington and Yelvenden. For the Abolition of the Corn Laws, by Colonel BAILLIE, from the Bristol Political Union; and from the Chamber of Commerce, for the Repeal of the Duties on Calicoes, and for the Reduction of the Duties on Sugar. Against the Evesham Disfranchisement Bill, by Colonel LYGON, from the Burgesses of Evesham. For the Repeal of the Union, by Mr. D. BROWNE, from Headford. For Amending the Law of Scotland as to buying Grain, by the LORD ADVOCATE, from the Merchants and Farmers of Kincardine, and from several other parts of Scotland; also, against the. Renewal of the East-India Company's Charter, from the Chamber of Commerce for Forfarshire, and from the Merchants of Dundee; for the Repeal of the Stamp Duties on Pro-curators Certificates, from the Procurators of Perthshire and Kincardine; and against the Tax on Steam Boats, from the Tay Steam Packet Company. For the Abolition of the Duties on Sugar, by Sir R. BATESON, from Carrickfergus and Lisburne; and for the Abolition of Tithes, from Tamlaght Finlagan. Against any alteration of the Timber Duties, by Lord W. POWLETT, from the Shipowners of Sunderland and South Shields. Against the Duty on Soap, by General GASCOYNE, from the Soap Manufacturers of Liverpool; for the Repeal of the Disabilities to which the Jews are liable, by Mr. R. GRANT, from Portsea.

KILDARE-STREET SOCIETY.
Sir Robert Batesonpresented Petitions from the Presbytery of Derry, in connection with the Synod of Ulster, and from the Landowners of Aughadowey, for the continuance of the Parliamentary Grants to the Kildare-Street Society.
An Hon. Member bore testimony to the utility of that society; he knew that it had done a great deal of good.
Mr. O'Connelldid not mean to deny what the hon. Member stated, and, indeed, he had no doubt that instances of the utility of the Society had occurred in the north of Ireland; but the Catholics of that country complained bitterly of the grant. Those who supported the Kildare-street Society, however, never were favourable either to the political or civil rights of the Catholics, and might naturally support a Society which the Catholics hated. It worked well for those who agreed with its tenets; but the Catholics might justly claim a share of the public money, without its being made a condition that they must renounce their father's faith.
Mr. Thomas Lefroysupported the Society. The number of its scholars had much increased, even its Catholic scholars. In the last year there had been an increase of eighty-one schools, and 8,000 scholars.
Mr. Humehad presented many petitions against the Society, and knew that great dissatisfaction on the subject prevailed among the Catholics. They saw the public money given to an exclusive sect, and employed to promote exclusive objects. He trusted that some new arrangements would, therefore, be made, as to the grant, which, were it properly applied, would be sufficient to educate the whole necessitous population of Ireland. As it was now applied, it was a mere waste of public money.
Sir Robert Batesonhad presented, he was sure, as many petitions in favour of the Society as the hon. member for Middlesex had against it. The petitions he had then laid before the House were signed by 7,000 persons. He knew of no instance of Catholics objecting to the Society—many of whom sent their children to its schools. He knew that they disliked the Bible being read in the schools without rule or comment; but it was not used as a school-book; it was read to them once a week. In his part of Ireland, the Society was deservedly very popular, for it -had done a great deal of good. He be-

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lieved its opponents could not cite one instance of its having been guilty of jobbing or proselytizing; but till they did, it was impossible to answer general and vague charges. He hoped the Government would not suffer itself to be misled by taunts, as it would have much to answer for, if it lent itself to the sham conciliatory system that was so much in vogue.
Mr. More O'Ferralldid not need to point out to the House, that this subject was of great importance to Ireland; which was proved by the number of petitions presented to the House. A liberal system might reconcile the people of Ireland to this Society; but if the present system were persevered in, he despaired of any good being effected by parliamentary grants. The system might be liked in Londonderry: but it was hated in Kildare. He had himself established a school by means of funds advanced by the Kildare-street Society, in which the Douay Testament was read; but the Society endeavoured to substitute for that a selection from the New Testament, and gave out that it had received the sanction of a Catholic Bishop. He was obliged, therefore, to cease his connection with the Society, and could not derive any aid from its funds for extending education. It had been too long the practice in Ireland to force the Bible OH the attention of the people; which only generated animosity and distrust instead of promoting charity, peace, and confidence.
Mr. Wm. S. O'Brienbelieved that, under proper regulations, the grant might be most beneficial; at present, it was misapplied; and he trusted that his Majesty's Ministers would redeem their pledges on this subject, and do something to satisfy the people that their interests were not altogether lost sight of.
Sir John Newportstated, that a large portion of the people of Ireland were hostile to the Society, and as long as that was the case, it could do no good.
Mr. M' Namaraattributed to the conduct of the Society much of the agitation and disturbance which existed in the county he had the honour to represent (Clare).
Mr. Shawwas anxious to bear his testimony to the good which the Society had effected; and it was impossible, he believed, to devise any plan better calculated to promote education in Ireland.
Petition laid on the Table.
Mr. O'Connell Mr. O'Connell, on a Petition being sub-
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sequently presented against Slavery, reverted to this subject, and said, that the difference between him and hon. gentlemen was, that they wished the Catholics to be educated by Protestants, while the Catholics wished to educate themselves. The more violent Protestants, those who were indebted for their seats in that House to their hatred of Catholics, actually contended, that they were the fittest persons to educate the Catholics, and to have the disposal of the national funds, destined to the purposes of education. The Catholic prelates had petitioned the House against the Society, and he had presented not less than 150 petitions, and he had more to present. There was nothing the Catholics felt to be more degrading than the superiority assumed by the Protestants; and the present Government would forfeit the respect of Irishmen, if it suffered the aggravating system to continue.
Sir Robert Batesonwished also to make some further observations, but he was stopped by the Speaker, and desired to take some other opportunity than on the bringing up of a petition against slavery.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM PETITIONS.
General Gascoynepresented a Petition, most numerously and respectably signed, from the Town of Liverpool, in favour of Reform. The petition, he stated, expressed the opinions of nearly 12,000 of the most respectable inhabitants of that great and opulent town, who had put their names to it, and it had affixed to it the signatures of the first Merchants and most respectable Bankers in Liverpool. He could not say, that the petition was in favour of the Bill which Ministers would introduce, as that Bill was not as yet before the House, but it was in favour of Reform generally, and the petitioners particularly called the attention of the House to the necessity of adopting measures for disfranchising the close boroughs, and transferring the right of Representation to the large and populous towns. He certainly thought, taking into account the immense load of business which devolved, necessarily, upon the Representatives of such a town as Liverpool, a circumstance with which he was well acquainted, having represented that town for upwards of thirty years, it might be worthy the consideration of the House whether it would not be advisable to give more Representatives to that town.

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The town of Liverpool paid more to the revenue in the year than all Ireland, and there were more houses in it rated at 10 l. a-year, (the standard taken in the measure of the noble Lord who had introduced the Ministerial plan of Reform), than in Cambridge, Bedford, and Berks. To such a place, therefore, an increase in the number of Representatives might be a most judicious measure. The petitioners stated, that as far as they had become acquainted with the details of the measure of Reform which had been introduced by his Majesty's Ministers, it should have their full support. He was sorry to differ from his constituents with regard to that part of the noble Lord's Bill which went to settle the elective franchise, of which he disapproved. It was principally to the details of the measure of Ministers that he should give his opposition. He thought it might be very right to disfranchise some close and notoriously corrupt boroughs, and to transfer their franchise to the large towns, but he could not go the length of throwing sixty boroughs at once overboard. He agreed with those who thought that some Reform was necessary, but it was a different question whether the specific plan proposed by Ministers should be adopted or not. Whether that were adopted or not, he was sure that it would lead to some Reform before the end of the present year.
Mr. Ewartgave his warm and cordial support to the petition. The petition was in favour of the measure of his Majesty's Ministers, for the petitioners expressed their great satisfaction at its introduction, and their determination to give it their support. He knew well the respectability of all the parties whose names were signed to the petition. He believed his hon. and gallant colleague would bear him out in saying, that no petition had come from that town more numerously and respectably signed than this, during the long period he had represented Liverpool. He might be allowed to take the opportunity of saying, that he considered the measure of Reform proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, as one of the greatest boons ever offered to the country. It would tend, more than any other measure which could have been devised, to give stability to our institutions; the best security for which was, placing them in accordance with the spirit of the country, by a change like that now proposed to be adopted. Much had been said as to the
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opposition of Mr. Canning to Parliamentary Reform, but when Mr. Canning made that celebrated speech against Reform, which had been so often quoted, he said to some of his principal supporters in Liverpool, "Though I oppose Reform now, the day will come when Reform must be conceded."
Sir E. Sugdenwished to know, as the petitioners were so strenuous in the cause of Reform, whether they lost sight of the necessity of some measure for preventing the excessive bribery which usually occurred at elections in Liverpool?
Mr. J. Woodsaid, that the measure introduced by his Majesty's Ministers would effectually prevent bribery there in future, by putting an end to the system of outvoters.
Mr. C. Calvertpresented a Petition, most numerously and respectably signed, from the inhabitants of the borough of Southwark, in the Town-hall assembled, in favour of the plan of Reform brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers. The petitioners stated, that they would give that plan their cordial support, and they mentioned, that the proposed system of franchise which that plan went to establish was so similar to that which had been established in that borough for many years, that they were quite sure that the establishment of it throughout the kingdom would not be attended by any of those dangers which timid or interested persons had predicted from it. This petition was adopted at a general meeting of the inhabitants, and though the majority of them were in favour of the Ballot, they so cordially concurred in their approval of the measure of his Majesty's Ministers, that they altogether omitted to express their sentiments on that subject.
Sir R. Wilsonsupported the prayer of the petition. The example of the Borough, which the petitioners said justified the measure, was he thought extremely appropriate. He had been elected four times for the Borough, and he could safely say, that he never had endeavoured, in any improper manner whatever, to influence the vote of any one elector. He denied that the majority, or even that a great proportion of the voters in the Borough of Southwark, were in favour of the Ballot, and would repeat what he had before stated, viz., that though Ballot might do pretty well in other countries—the instances quoted, however, did not even

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bear that out—yet it would never do in this country. Indeed, he believed, that it had totally failed in other countries. The measure introduced by the Ministers should have his hearty and cordial support.
Sir J. Macdonaldpresented a Petition from the borough of Calne, in favour of the Ministerial plan of Reform.
Mr. Hunt.—I will take this opportunity of replying to a personal allusion which was made a few nights ago to myself, in the course of the Debate, by the hon. member for Yarmouth (Mr. W. Peel). The hon. Member thought proper to make some allusion, and I am led to believe good-humouredly and inoffensvely, to my trade or profession, or whatever else you please to call it. Now, if I had been present on that occasion, I would have risen and addressed the hon. member for Yarmouth as good-humouredly and inoffensively as he addressed me. I would have said to him— "Sir, the only difference between you and me is this—your father was the first person of your family who was a gentleman, and my father was the first gentleman of his family who was a tradesman."

FIRST FRUITS—IRELAND.
Sir John Newportdid not mean to intrude long upon the House, but he conceived the subject to which he meant to call the attention of the House, though not for the first time, to be of essential importance to the well-being of the Church of Ireland. The House, he believed, was well aware of the nature of the First Fruits, but what he contended for was, that they ought to be appropriated according to the beneficent intentions of the Crown. At the period of the Reformation, the First Fruits came into the hands of the Crown, and were part of its revenue, but, in the year 1710, in the time of Queen Anne, they were made over to the clergy, both in England and Ireland, for the building and repairing of Churches, for the purchase of glebes, and for the maintenance of the clergy when the parochial revenue was not sufficient. The clergy of Ireland were, about the same period, exonerated from the payment of the twentieth they were to pay the Crown, but the clergy of England were not released from the payment of a tenth that had been habitually demanded from them. The valuation of livings had never been high in Ireland, and the First Fruits were so small, that
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Parliament had frequently been obliged to make grants for that purpose for which if sufficient, they were destined. He believed, that under proper management, they would be sufficient, and as the burthen which they were meant to bear fell upon Roman Catholics and Dissenters, it was very necessary that the First Fruits should be made available to the utmost. The real cause of the insufficiency of the First Fruits, and of this burthen being so oppressively felt by the people, was, that the valuation of the First Fruits still remained the same as at first; so that now what was called First Fruits was scarcely more than nominal. Besides this, many parishes had never been valued at all; there were, in fact, 2,479 parishes in Ireland, and 467, or one-fifth had never been rated to the First Fruits, and 366, though rated, contributed nothing. For the ten years ending January 1821, the gross sum of the First Fruits in Ireland amounted to 3,75 l., and in the following ten years to 5,142 l., or in twenty years 8,894 l.; and the expenses being 1,557 l., they really netted only 7,337 l. The whole revenue of all the Archbishoprics and Bishoprics of Ireland, was in fact estimated at 3,177 l. per year. The revenue of all the other benefices in the King's books was only estimated at 14,118 l. while under the Tithe Composition Act, the tithes of three-fifths of the parishes of Ireland had been compounded for by the annual payment of no less than 326,000 l. to the ecclesiastical incumbents, exclusive of their glebe lands. In consequence of the insufficiency of the First Fruits, Parliament had been repeatedly applied to, and for the sixteen years ending in 1823, had advanced no less a sum than 632,000 l. for the benefit of the Irish Church. Since then, the average grants have amounted to very nearly 40,000 l. a-year. The object of his Motion, was to ascertain if the First Fruits, properly levied, could not be made available to the service of the Church, instead of forming, as now, part of the emoluments of individual Churchmen. A late Chief Secretary for Ireland had stated, that not more than 1,400 l. was ever granted at one time for building or repairing Churches. He was able, to contradict that assertion, from the information he possessed. The contradiction was contained in a Letter which he would beg leave to read to the House. The right hon. Baronet accordingly read the following Letter;—

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"Lord Treasurer's, and Second Remembrancer's Office, Four Courts, Dublin.
"Sir,—On reading a report of the proceedings on your motion, relative to the tax on Roman Catholics, on building, re-building, and repairing churches in this country, I was surprised at the reply of the Secretary for Ireland, wherein he stated, that there never was more than 1,400 l. allowed or lent for building a church here, and then specifying the interest, &c. chargeable.
" The report of the Debate states you to have asked the hon. Secretary, 'Are you certain of this?' when he replied confidently in the affirmative. Now, Sir, from your asking the question, and being in some measure ruled by the answer, I naturally infer you lay a great stress on the amount of the sum so lent, and, of course, levied on the people. His assertion (if truly reported) is so contrary to the fact, and shews such a want of knowledge on the subject, that I conclude it will be acceptable information to you, to shew you, from unerring documents, that Mr. Goulburn is quite wrong as to the extent of the injury, to remedy which seems to be your earnest wish; and, as every other action of your public life is of a similar complexion, I feel pleasure in sending you a short abstract of the orders issued from this office, in which I hold a situation, to levy the amount of any instalment of any loan made by the Board of First Fruits to any parish for building, rebuilding, or enlarging or repairing any church in said parish, and this under the 15th section of the Act of George 4th, chap. 86. A blank form of the Bishop's or Archbishop's certificate (on which said order is grounded) of the twenty-one days' arrear of said instalment, I send you for explicitness, and in which you will be greatly surprised to see Mr. Goulburn's statement often more than doubled.
' 8th November, 1825.
'First Fruits against Parish Tawney, County of Dublin.—Order to the Sheriff of the County of Dublin, to levy 151 l. 8s., being one instalment of 3,784 l., made by the Trustees and Commissioners of First Fruits, &c. in Ireland, for building a church. KEMMIS,
'Solicitor to the Crown and First Fruits.'
'8th November, 1825.
'First Fruits against Parish Swords, County of Dublin.—Like order to levy 46 l.,late currency, being one instalment of 2,500 l. granted for rebuilding church in the said Parish.'
'8th November, 1825.
'First Fruits against the Parish of Aughrun, County of Galway —Like order to levy 20 l., being one instalment of 1,500 l., granted for the like.'
'8th November, 1825.
'First Fruits against Parish Roscrea, County of Tipperary.—Like order to levy 94 l., being one instalment of 2,350 l., for rebuilding a church in the said parish.'
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' 8th November, 1825.
'First Fruits against Parish of the Union of Roscre, and Kyle, Diocese of Killaloe County, Tipperary County, and Queen's County.—Like order to levy 188 l.,being one instalment of 2,350 l., for building a church in the said parish.'
"This and the above order for building and rebuilding at one time will appear severe.
"The above are levied as absolute executions; the sheriff, on receiving the orders, gets the churchwardens and constables to assess, without ever summoning a person interested, and apportions it as to him may seem equitable and just, but apparently without control; and, so absolute is this order, that the most celebrated man we have, when High Sheriff of the County of Dublin, Mr. Latouche, the banker, was actually attached, through the neglect of his sub-sheriff, for not paying over the money immediately.
"The above extracts are as good as ten thousand to shew that the principle is at variance with Mr. Goulburn's assertion. From my hurry to send it to you, and being late when I thought of it, these are all I have time to send, but I will give, at any future time, such further information as is in my power."
He had stated on a former occasion that Mr. Shaw Mason, an active and conscientious individual who held the office of Commissioner for estimating the First Fruits of Ireland, had endeavoured to perform the duties of his office, and had applied for those sums which he thought were due. His conduct excited great alarm among the clergy; the clergy applied to the Government, and the Government, instead of supporting their officer, commanded him to desist, telling him he had no right to make the application, and threatening him with the loss of his patent place. The Government did this although Mr. Shaw Mason acted by the advice of one of the most eminent counsel in Ireland, he meant Mr. Allen. This was one of the rare instances of servants being censured for too well performing their duties. It appeared by returns on the Table, that the balance of loans to the Commissioners for the Church, in January, 1830, was 391,824 l., and of this, 142,780 l. had been advanced for building Glebe Houses. In eighteen years, ending 1830, 1,381 ecclesiastical promotions had taken place, and the First Fruits of all their benefices amounted only to 7,000 l. The number of parishes comprised in this promotion was 2,058, and of dignities 345; now the tithes of 1,208 of these parishes had been valued under the Tithe Composition. Act, at upwards of

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300,000 l. According to his estimate the First Fruits in that period ought to have amounted to 660,000 l. In the same period the parliamentary grants to the Church had been upwards of 600,000 l., and, in all, the Church had received in that time from the public, independently of its revenues, 860,000 l. In his opinion the First Fruits, the real First Fruits ought to be made available for all the expenses of the Church. It was time that the wealth properly belonging to the State should be devoted to that purpose for which it had been intended, and neither the Consolidated Fund, nor parliamentary grants, nor local taxation, ought to be had recourse to for ecclesiastical purposes till the whole of the real First Fruits were appropriated as it was intended they should be. He believed that in the motion he was about to make, he consulted the interests of the Church establishment. If the clergy were acquainted with the signs of the times in which we live, they would be careful not to insist too pertinaciously on claims that were in opposition to the claims of the State and the poor. He had drawn up his proposition in such a form, he believed, as not to be liable to objections. He proposed to move an Address to the Crown, detailing at length all the facts which he had brought before the House, and which were connected with this subject, and praying his Majesty, in order to render these First Fruits efficient for the purposes for which they were granted, that he would direct a reference to be made to the Law Officers of the Crown, to ascertain if it were legal to make a new and complete valuation of the First Fruits, exempting from the payment all benefices of 100 l. and under, in order, out of them, to make good deficiencies in the revenue for ecclesiastical purposes, so that they might no longer be defrayed by grants from Parliament, or by local taxation. The right hon. Baronet concluded by the following Motion.
"That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, humbly to represent to his Majesty, that the Annates, or First Fruits, being the first year's income of every ecclesiastical dignity and benefice in Ireland, became, at the period of the Reformation, a part of the revenues of the Crown, as head of the Church, and continued annexed to the Royal revenues till the year 1710.
"That her Majesty Queen Anne did
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then, as an act of grace and favour to the Church of Ireland, by letters patent, confirmed by authority of Parliament, vest in trustees the produce of this branch of the Royal revenue, for the purposes of building and repairing churches, and other objects specially affecting the maintenance of the Church of Ireland, and did, at the same time, absolutely release the clergy thereof from the annual payment of 12 d. in the pound out of the income of all ecclesiastical benefices, before paid to the Crown, although a corresponding payment was retained by the Queen, and still remains annually payable by the clergy of England out of their dignities and benefices.
"That it appears from returns laid before this House, that the gross amount of this royal grant, paid in to the Commissioners of First Fruits, during ten years, ending in 1830, has only produced the sum of 5,143 l., and after deducting an allowance for salaries and incidents of collection no more than 4,302 l.
"That 467 of the dignities and benefices of Ireland, being nearly one-fifth part of the whole, have never been rated or valued for payment of First Fruits; and 366 more, though rated, do not contribute thereto, on account of the low rate at which they were valued in the reigns of Queen Elizabeth, King James, and Charles 1st., in which valuations the whole of the Archbishoprics and Bishoprics, more than twenty in number, are estimated at no more than 3,177 l. annual value.
"That the entire amount of these valuations of the other benefices is 8,474 l.; whereas under the Tithe Composition Act, the tithes of about three-fifths of these parishes have been compounded by an annual land-tax of above 300,000 l. payable to the ecclesiastical incumbent only, exclusive of the glebe lands in his possession,
"That the deficiency created by this imperfect valuation has rendered the fund wholly inadequate to fulfil the objects of royal bounty, and been supplied by parliamentary grants in sixteen years, up to 1823, amounting to 630,000 l., the greater part of which being advanced as a loan for building churches, is from time to time repaid to the Commissioners from the produce of parochial taxation, levied on the occupying tenantry.
"We therefore humbly pray your Majesty, in order to render this branch of royal revenue, liberally appropriated by

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the Crown to salutary objects, specially connected with the maintenance of the Church of Ireland, efficient for their attainment, that your Majesty may be pleased to direct that a new and complete valuation of the property included therein be made, in such a manner as to your Majesty may seem meet, and that, exempting from payment under such valuation, all parishes not producing above 100 l. the deficiency created by the present imperfect valuation may be no longer supplied by additional charge on the body of the people, either by parliamentary grant or parochial taxation."
Mr. Stanleyseconded the Motion.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, it would be an ungrateful task to go at any length into a subject like the present before an unwilling audience. He was not sure that he very well understood the object of the right hon. Baronet.
Sir J. Newportsaid, his object with respect to small parishes was—if the Jaw officers of the Crown declared that his Majesty had the power to order a new valuation—to propose that all parishes of a less annual value than 100 l. should be exempt from payment of First Fruits,
Mr. Goulburnmust nevertheless censure the course proposed to be taken by the right hon. Baronet, as unnecessary, not to say unconstitutional. What occasion was there for an address? He did not know why, as he presumed that his Majesty's present Ministers approved of this motion, they could not direct the law officers to make the necessary inquiries. The right hon. Gentlemen might do that of their own accord, and there was no occasion whatever to call on the Crown, by an Address of that House, unless the right hon. Baronet supposed that his right hon. friends would not do their duty. He thought the Motion was consistent neither with public advantage nor justice; he should resist the Motion. The right hon. Baronet appeared to think the First Fruits of a living were the entire first year's revenue. He denied this altogether. Even the Pope never claimed such First Fruits except from benefices to which the presentation was with the See of Rome, and even then he never demanded above half the annual value of the living. He must affirm, then, that the Annates never were the whole gross profit of any benefice. It was also an error of the right hon. Baronet to suppose that the Acts of Parliament which empowered Commissioners to appro-
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priate the First Fruits gave any power to the Commissioners to ascertain the value of the First Fruits. The right hon. Baronet was also in error in thinking the Act of Henry 8th conferred the power of making a valuation with a view to ascertain the full annual value of benefices; the valuation was instituted only with reference to the First Fruits— a very different thing from the total annual value. It was true the Act of Twentieths (28 Henry 8th c. 14.) did give the power of ascertaining the annual value of benefices; but this was with a view to give the twentieths to the Crown not with reference to First Fruits. The valuation of First Fruits never was intended to have been regulated from time to time, as the right hon. Baronet had asserted. Queen Elizabeth, on coming to the Throne, resumed the powers which had been granted by Henry 8th (which Queen Mary had interfered with), and she specifically exempted from First Fruits benefices of a certain value. Now could it be supposed that she would exempt from the operation of this system, for ever, benefices which, at some future time, might prove extremely valuable, if the principle of ascertaining the amount of First Fruits, from time to time, had ever been contemplated? If any doubt existed as to the real law of the case, let it be submitted to the proper law authorities for their decision. Such was the course pursued by him when he held the situation which the right hon. Gentleman opposite now filled. He had submitted the point to the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and the present chief Baron of the Exchequer, two lawyers of the highest eminence. He would always contend in that House, that it would be a very great hardship on every incumbent to demand the yearly value of his benefice after he had resided on it for several years. The legality of such a proceeding had not been affirmed by any law officer; the opinion last given was hostile to such a course, and the practice of above 200 years, during which no such system had obtained, was decidedly against the proposition laid down by the right hon. Baronet. In conclusion, the right hon. Gentleman observed that it appeared to him to be very unfair, in arguing this question, to assume that the point of law would be given in favour of the right hon. Baronet's opinion, and then to point out the course which the Crown ought to take, supposing that assumption to be correct.
Mr. Leadersaid, he felt greatly obliged to the right hon. Baronet, who had for so many years brought under the consideration of the House the commutation of tithes, the grievance of Grand Jury taxation, and the abuse of the system of First Fruits in Ireland. With respect to this last question, he had read all that the right hon. Baronet had said with respect to it, and he found this distinction between his former motions on this subject and the present—namely, that there was now brought forward a mass of information which had never previously been laid before the House, and which demanded the most serious attention. He was one of those who, all his life, held the opinion that a premium for residence ought to be given to the clergy; and therefore he would never agree to any measure that tended to spoliate them. But, though he still entertained the same opinion, he was nevertheless firmly convinced, that the First Fruits system called for alteration and amendment. He was sure, indeed, that a bonâ fide payment of First Fruits would go far to put down angry discussion in the 2,400 parishes of Ireland, and do more to uphold and establish the Protestant Church than any of the ill-timed efforts of the right hon. member for Armagh, or the hon. member for Oxford, to divert the attention of Parliament from this important subject. He held in his hand the return of the "sums applotted during the year 1827, by the several vestries of Ireland, under the head of parochial rates, specifying the articles for which such rates were imposed, and particularly distinguishing the sums allotted for rebuilding and repairing of churches;" and also a summary view, taken from official documents, of the comparative value of the First Fruits, tithes, and Church lands in Ireland, and the actual state of the Irish Church, up to the 1st of March, 1831. He asserted, without fear of contradiction, that by far the greatest part of the burthen imposed on the occupying tenantry and landowners in Ireland had been laid on for rebuilding and repairing churches, and this notwithstanding the Parliament of the United Kingdom had actually granted near 700,000 l. for building churches in Ireland. He wanted to know what had become of this money, and how it had been applied? That sum was ample to build the churches which had been erected, without local burthens and the sum required for other
416
parochial purposes was so insignificant, that a Catholic never need be taxed to pay one shilling for the maintenance of the Protestant Church of Ireland, if the First Fruits were fairly valued and fairly paid, and rendered unobjectionable by being collected by easier instalments than at present. The wants of the people, and the state of Ireland, would prevent this important subject being longer slightingly passed over, or treated with indifference or neglect. It appeared on the face of the returns of the parochial rates, that if the building and repair of churches were deducted from the gross amount, the tax would be inconsiderable. The sum required for other purposes was so small that it could and ought to be paid by the voluntary assessments of the Protestant parishioners. He could not see the justice of a few Protestant gentlemen assessing a Catholic people for the payment of their clerks and sextons, and repairs of their churches—when the Catholic Church set them the laudable example of paying its own servants, clerks, and repairs, and when, in truth, the sum required for this purpose was so small, that it might easily be provided for, and thus preclude the necessity of a Protestant vestry ever assembling in Ireland to tax a Catholic people. From the slovenly mode in which the parochial returns have been made up, it would be dangerous to attempt to state the precise sum which might be necessary for the payment of the parish-clerk sexton, and repairs of Protestant churches; but he was certain if the Board of First Fruits was compelled to embrace the alternative, either, to pay the parochial rates, or to hand over the First Fruits, it would pay the parochial rates. He had a Protestant church and Catholic chapel, and residence for the Protestant rector and for the Catholic clergyman, built on his own estate; and he had introduced a Protestant establishment into a part of the south of Ireland, where none ever before existed; he had served the office of churchwarden in an union of three parishes, 100 square miles in extent, and consisting of a population, almost exclusively Catholics, amounting to nearly 50,000 people. It would appear in page 115 of the Parochial Rates, No. 16, that the annual rate for these three parishes did not exceed 30 l. a-year; and if there was an extra charge for making churchyards and burial-grounds, it was a charge

417
made at the request of the Catholc parishioners themselves. In the north of Ireland, where Protestants, who pay the cess, lay it on, the cess is very light; but in the south of Ireland, where the Protestants levy and the Catholics pay, the reverse is the case—for instance, look in the parochial returns, to Derry;—the levy does not exceed 2,300 l. for the year 1827; and look at Cork; why the levy is 7,000 l. for the same year. In Derry diocess, there were forty-nine parishes, and in Cork diocess fifty parishes. He did not wish to take one guinea from the Protestant Church which properly belonged to it, but

Summary View of the Comparative Valuations of First Fruits, Tithes, and Church Lands in Ireland.—Feb. 1831.

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

11.

12.

Provinces.

Promotions from Aug, 1812, to Feb. 1831.

Dignities in said Promotions.

Parishes in said Promotions.

Dignities Taxed and Paying First Fruits

Parishes Taxed and Paying First Fruits

Amount Of First Fruits.

Parishes Valued under the Composition Act.

Annual Amount of Tithe Valuations.

Parishes having Glebes annexed.

Acres in see Lands on Promotions.

Acres belonging to Bishopricks

£.

s.

d.

£.

s.

d.

A.

A.

Armagh

436

61

541

41

210

4,886

2

11

307

108,143

33

10

388

325,268

250,911

Dublin

338

84

528

79

103

3,143

14

3½

267

61,048

16

6½

197

71,687

53,578

Cashell

472

145

698

124

77

1,346

4

4

429

98,727

0

5

362

126,567

78,399

Tuam

135

55

291

46

15

364

14

8

205

33,848

17

8

91

82,839

119,133

Totals

1,381

345

2,058

290

405

9,740

16

2½

1,208

300,768

8

5½

1,038

606,352

502,021

N. B. Besides the Income under Composition and the Land, a sum of £.686,000 was granted to the First Fruits by Parliament for building Churches in Ireland.

It would appear by the foregoing summary—1st. That between the month of August, 1812, and the date of this return (28th of February, 1831), 1,381 promotions spiritual, comprehending the same number of benefices, have taken place within the several dioceses in Ireland. 2ndly. That the 1,381 benefices to which promotions have been so made, contain 345 dignities, including the Archbishoprics and Bishoprics, and 2,058 parishes &c. 3rdly. That 290 of the aforesaid dignities, and 405 of the parishes, have been taxed, and are paying First Fruits, to the amount of 9,740 l. 16 s. 2½d.; and that the remainder, consisting of fifty-eight dignities and 1,653 parishes, are either exempted from payment under the Statute of Elizabeth, or have never been taxed or put in charge. 4thly. That valuations have been made, under the Tithe Composition Act, in 1,208 of the above-mentioned parishes, to the annual amount of 300,768 l. 8s. 5½d. 5thly. That 1,038 of said parishes have glebes annexed to them, amounting to 101,362 acres, and that the see or bishop's lands, on promotions occurring, amount to 504,990 acres. 6thly. That the total number of acres contained in both glebe and See lands amount to 606,352 acres.
he could never consent for the sake of that church to its putting to its own uses the property which belonged to the Crown, or to its taxing the people to pay for matters for which funds were already provided. No man who knew the income of the Irish Church would contend that it was not amply endowed without its appropriating what belonged to the Crown and the people. He was prepared to go into detail on the subject but he had already thrown his information into a tabular form which he would read to the House. The hon. Member then read the following summary.
7thly. That the total number of acres belonging to the several Sees in Ireland, with the exception of the diocesses of Down and Connor, Raphoe and Dromore, amount to 502,021 acres, the pecuniary values of which have not been officially ascertained. Such was the state of the Established Church in Ireland; and that was what the right hon. Gentleman described as a case that did not loudly call for inquiry. He was most anxious that the proposition of the right hon. Baronet should succeed, because, if it did, it would tend to the removal of the vestry system, which would be the first and best harbinger of tranquillity in Ireland. It was evident, in his opinion, that the Crown intended, and the Parliament contemplated, an actually efficient, full, and fair valuation, and bonâ fide payment of First Fruits. There was no Irish Clergyman who, if the fund were properly applied, and the amount made payable by lighter instalments, who would make objections to pay the First Fruits. It was admitted that there could be no better application of the fund than the lightening the burthen of the Catholic population, who had now the weight of two Churches: the one established and the other recognised, by law. Under all these

419
circumstances, the time, in his humble judgment, was come, for Parliament to take up the question of inquiry, whether the trust which it had itself created was fairly and properly executed or not. The moment the discussion on this subject was terminated, it would be followed by a debate on the Army Estimates, in which the propriety of granting the sum of l,000,000 l. for the maintenance of the Army, Ordnance, &c. Yeomanry in Ireland would be considered and discussed. Since the Union, it would be found that nearly 100,000,000 l.. had been expended with no benefit to Ireland, and great injury to England, in supporting an immense military establishment in that country, and in building fortresses and barracks. Was another 100,000,000 l. to be expended before the condition of the people was ameliorated, and they rendered tranquil? It was idle to contend that tithes and taxes and local cesses did not drive the Irish to despair, and into rebellion; they were the substantial grievances. A legitimate means was offered to the House of lessening most of these burthens and pacifying the people, and the House would not do its duty if it did not procure the First Fruits to be fairly valued and fully paid.
Mr. T. Lefroysaid, it was only just, that a fair and proper provision should be made for the clergy, and he could not see why that useful and excellent class of men should be exclusively taxed more than any other body in the State. If they were to be thus taxed, why should not others be visited in the same manner? Why, for instance, should not his Majesty's Ministers be taxed for the building of public offices? or why should not military officers give up a Year's pay to build their barracks? Why, he demanded, should the clergy be compelled to give up the value of their first year's promotion? Had they no families to support? Had they no expenditure to meet? It would, he believed, be found on inquiry, that the clergy would want their first year's Revenue as much as any other body of men. As to the reasonableness of this measure, he would say, that it was one on which the House was not called on to act, and ought not to act: and he felt this the more strongly, because the law authorities of Ireland were opposed to the principle contended for by the right hon. Baronet, and had declared it illegal. It would be unjust, too, for the people
420
ought to provide for the repairs of the churches. In fact, too, that was the law of the land. It would also be a gross innovation, for he was prepared to show by a history of the First Fruits, from the time of Henry 8th to the reign of Queen Anne, a period of 300 years, that the present system had never been altered. In Queen Anne's time the subject had been frequently before Parliament, but Parliament never thought of doing that which was now solicited. He could bring many proofs that the Parliament never thought of taking the first year's full income as the First Fruits. Thus the annual value of the First Fruits had frequently been stated to Parliament, but it never took any means to procure a new valuation. If they went back to earlier times they would find, that by the 6th of Henry 4th Parliament denounced, in the most severe terms, the exaction of the full value in the amount of First Fruits, from the clergy; and the same feeling was constantly manifested, down to the time of Henry 8th. As to the valuation of the livings, for the purpose of ascertaining the amount of the First Fruits, the last made in this country was in the year 1292, and from that time to the period of Henry 8th there was no valuation: but the object in. that valuation was not so much to see what was the amount of tenths and First-Fruits, as to ascertain what was to be transferred to the Crown. But it was not then pretended that the amount transferred was the first year's value of the living. When the First Fruits were transferred by Queen Anne, Commissioners were appointed here and in Ireland, for their collection; and the Lord Chancellor, or Lord Keeper, for the time being, was one of them; yet, though he must have known that the amount received was not anything like the annual value, we never find him issuing a Commission to ascertain what was the exact annual value. He was satisfied, that the full enforcement of the rule laid down by the right hon. Baronet would prove the ruin of the clergy; and he hoped that, if it was to be done at all, it should not be done by a side-wind, and at a moment when the law on the subject was at best exceedingly doubtful. Indeed, he conceived that it was wrong, in a discussion of this kind, to deliver a positive opinion on a doubtful point of law, which was done by the right hon. Baronet's proposition. If the clergy were to be

421
taxed for the building of churches, let it be done gradually—let the tax be levied de anno in annum, and not all at once. When a property-tax was imposed on the people, it was levied in a gradual maner —no man was asked to give up his whole year's income on the moment. He could not conceive why the clergy more than the laity should be taxed in this manner. He did not see either, why the lay impropriator and the remainder-man, who has an interest in the lay tithes, should not be compelled to pay a tax for the repairs and erecting of churches, as well as the clergyman. The course proposed by the right hon. Baronet was certainly most unjust to the clergy of Ireland, than whom a more meritorious body of men did not exist. It was a fact, that within the last thirty years the number of the clergy resident in Ireland had been doubled, and that in the last fifty years there had been more churches built in that country than in the preceding three centuries. The adoption of the principles of these Resolutions would be, to take away from the Established Church in Ireland that which was guaranteed to it at the Union, and by several Acts of the Irish Parliament before the Union. It would be most unwise and impolitic, by such a course as this, to bring the clergy of Ireland to make comparisons between the protection afforded to them now, and what they had enjoyed under a local legislature.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that he should not have felt it necessary to offer himself to the attention of the House on this question, concurring as he did in the Motion of his right hon. friend, but for what fell from the hon. and learned Gentleman who last addressed the House. If he had not heard some of the concluding observations of the hon. and learned Gentleman, he should have thought that he had wholly misunderstood the question before it. The hon. and learned Gentleman, in the earlier parts of his speech, seemed to think that by these Resolutions his right hon. friend (Sir J. Newport) was calling on the House and the Crown to do an act which was violent and illegal towards the clergy of Ireland, in making a new valuation of all livings; whereas, in fact, the Resolutions, in a spirit of due caution, only called on the House to address the Crown to lake the advice of its law officers as to the fact whether it had the power of making such a valuation. The hon. and learned Member was quite
422
mistaken in supposing that this was a measure which would fall with great severity upon the poorer clergy of Ireland. Surely the hon. and learned Gentleman could not have heard what was stated by his right hon. friend, that in the event of the measure contemplated by these Resolutions being carried into effect, it was intended to exempt from it all livings not exceeding 100 l. in value. The hon. Member had referred to the opinion of the law officers of the Crown in Ireland on a former occasion on this subject. Had that opinion been such as he seemed to think it, it would be presumption in him (Mr. Stanley) to question it; but he believed the question proposed to the law officers in Ireland on that occasion was very different from that now proposed to the law officers. It was not whether the Crown had the power of making a new valuation, but whether Mr. Shaw Mason, a patentee under the Crown, had the right to make such a valuation on his own authority. The two questions, then, were totally different. He was prepared to contend, that from the Act of the 28th of Henry 8th, it was quite clear that the whole of the First Fruits, the annates and twentieths, in full value, were vested in the Crown; and though the whole value of them might not have been exacted, still it was clear that a very considerable sum was derived from them; for upon a benefice becoming void, it was enacted that the King, having the First Fruits, should provide out of those funds an able priest to perform the duty of the living until the living was filled up. The hon. and learned Member had referred to the feeling manifested by Parliament on this subject in the time of Henry 4th; but it should be recollected, that at that period the First Fruits were paid to a foreign power, and not applied, as at present, for the support of our own Church. When the Crown had resigned those funds for the repairs of churches and improvement of small livings, it was not too much that Parliament should see that they were applied to the end intended. The payment of First Fruits could not be looked upon as a tax on the new incumbent. It was a condition on which he took a benefice, that a certain portion of it should be paid to improve the condition of his poorer brethren in the Church. The question at issue was, how far the first composition was final and conclusive. That was a point of law on which he did not feel com-

423
petent to pronounce; but it appeared to him, that it would be very strange if a clergyman were warranted to bind his successors for ever. It would surely be more reasonable to suppose that the clergyman who made the composition bound only himself. Whether it was legal was another point, but most certainly there had been repeated valuations in Ireland subsequent to the Statute of Henry 8th. They had been made under letters patent twice in the time of Elizabeth, and after in the reign of James 1st. The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Lefroy) could, then, with no shadow of reason deny the fact of these valuations. Further, he had no hesitation in saying, that should it be in the power of the Crown to order a new valuation of benefices in Ireland, it would be infinitely for the benefit of Ireland, of the Crown, and the Church, and would greatly help towards maintaining the Establishment in the plenitude of its rights without any odium. With this view he should feel highly gratified at seeing the First Fruits, of all benefices, exempting those not above 100 l. in value, appropriated to the purposes of the munificent donation of Queen Anne. In conclusion, the right hon. Gentleman observed, that such a measure as he supposed his right hon. friend contemplated, as the result of these Resolutions, would tend very much for the advantage of the Church.
Sir R. Peelsaid, that he and his hon. friends were placed in a very embarrassing situation by this Motion. They did not object to the abstract proposition of referring the question to the consideration of the law-officers of the Crown; but they certainly had strong objections to affirming a whole string of Resolutions without being allowed any time for their consideration. He hoped his right hon. friend would in candour consider, that if they were to send the subject for the opinion of the Law-officers, they ought not to accompany it with declarations of the opinion of the House, which might tend to bias the opinion of those learned persons. The right hon. Baronet then read two of the Resolutions, and contended, that in addition to the recommendation that the opinion of the law-officers of the Crown should be taken, they contained a declaration of opinions which it would be much better to defer until that opinion was pronounced. There were statements of facts which ought not to accompany a dry ques-
424
tion of law, about to be submitted to the legal advisers of the Crown. The course proposed on this occasion was, he conceived, altogether unprecedented.
Mr. Stanley Mr. Stanley, in explanation, said, that the facts stated in the Address were put forward as a ground why the House should agree to that part of it for referring the question to the opinion of the law-officers of the Crown. It was not intended, of course, that those facts should form any part of, or accompany, the case on which the opinion of the law-officers was to be taken. At the same time, as far as he was concerned, he was indifferent whether the parts of the Address which the right hon. Gentleman had read should be inserted or not.
Mr. O'Connellhoped the House would not allow the Resolutions before it to be frittered away by any special pleading. It was of the greatest importance to Ireland, to know whether there existed a legal fund from which the churches might be repaired, and, if there were, whether or not it could not be so disposed as not to allow the expense to fall on the poor people who derived no benefit in any way, either in or out of the church. The present system of making the repairs, and building of churches in Ireland—a large portion of which ought to be borne by the revenues of the Church—fall on the people, the great mass of whom never went into those churches, was a great hardship in Ireland. He was surprised at what had fallen from the hon. and learned member for the University of Dublin, that by the common-law the burthen of building and repairing churches should fall on the people. This, he would venture to say, was not the common-law in England. By the common-law the revenues of the Church were divided into three parts—one was for the repairs of the church, the other was for the maintenance of the poor, and the third for the support of the clergy. Now, the whole revenue was absorbed by the clergy; and this was the greater hardship in Ireland, where the great mass of the people had so little connexion with the clergy. The hon. and learned member for the University of Dublin had said, that there had been more churches built in Ireland in the last fifty years than in the preceding three centuries; but that could not surprise any one who was aware that 630,000 l. of public money had been voted

425
for that purpose, besides the produce of the First Fruits. And how had they used these parliamentary grants? In some places they had bestowed gifts; for instance, to that poor man, Lord Oriel, they had given 2,000 l. It was this doubling the number of churches that caused such outrages amongst the Irish peasantry, upon whom fell all the expense of them. Jobbing, also, amongst Protestant architects, and glaziers, and slaters, prevailed to a great extent. But that could not last if a fund really belonging to the Crown should be restored to it; and the only question of law that could be raised sprung, not from the words of the Statute, for they were clear and imperative, but from the uniformity of the practice in violation of the Statute. There could be no doubt the Crown had a good title to this improved fund. The present practice was highly injurious to the peace and tranquillity of Ireland, because it gave rise to great discontent in the Catholic body particularly, who were called on to defray almost the whole expense incurred in the erection and maintenance of churches for the few Protestant parishioners. This First Fruits' fund, too, was the cause of much jobbing and extravagance in the building and repairs of churches. The present system of First Fruits in Ireland was quite different to what prevailed in other countries. By the Statute of Henry 8th, every person obtaining ecclesiastical promotion was bound to give up the annates, or First Fruits, to the Crown, and the annates were described to be the revenues and profits for one whole year. By the common-law, the burthen of building churches fell upon the ecclesiastics themselves, and not upon the people. But what was the case now? Why, the Catholic people were taxed for this purpose, and were excluded from any control over the amount raised. He knew an instance of a parish in Ireland that of Joragh—where there were about 5,000 inhabitants, only twenty of whom were Protestants; fifteen of that twenty were water-guards, and the remaining five levied taxes on the rest of the population. He believed that the whole House was agreed as to the propriety of the first Resolution, —that no living under the value of 100 l. should pay First Fruits; and he hoped the Resolutions would be allowed to pass, and that in future the rights of the Crown would be ascertained.
Sir R. Inglisobjected to the Resolutions, because they assumed that the right to the first Fruits was in the Crown. He thought that if the case was submitted to the Crown-lawyers, joined with Resolutions of such a nature, their judgment was likely to be prejudiced. He trusted that the right hon. Secretary for Ireland would concur in the suggestion of his right hon. friend (Sir R. Peel) and withdraw the Motion, with the understanding that the case should be submitted to the law-officers of the Crown, without being encumbered by a declaration of the opinion of that House on the subject. The amount of assessments, of which the hon. and learned Member complained, was so trifling, being in some instances 2d. on the acre, and never more than 1s. 6d., while the land let for twelve or thirteen guineas, that in this respect it was hardly worth contending about. If, however, the inquiry were to be pursued, it would only be prudent to refer the question of law to the legal advisers of the Irish Government, unmingled with any opinions.
Mr. S. Ricesaid, that if the law-officers of the Crown did their duty faithfully, as he was sure they would, all that they would have to do would be, to state their opinion as to the legal right of the Crown to the First Fruits, without any reference at all to the Resolutions of that House. The only question for the Crown lawyers to consider was, whether the Crown could or could not re-value the livings in Ireland. The last objection that could be urged against the Resolutions was, he thought, their novelty, because the subject had been already several times under the consideration of the House and he did not see that there could be any difficulty in adopting them. The hon. Member then referred to the observations which had fallen from the hon. member for the University of Oxford (Sir R. Inglis), respecting the low charge on the land in Ireland, and stated his surprise that that hon. Member, unacquainted as he was with the feelings of the people of that country, should have so expressed himself. No matter how low the tax. might be, if it produced ill will and dissatisfaction it was injurious. He was sincerely attached to the Protestant Church; but was anxious to amend a system which occasioned perpetual heartburning and discontent in Ireland; it was also a system most injurious to the

427
Church Establishment in Ireland, for it put it in a position little calculated to recommend it to those who dissented from it, when they saw that it was a cause of augmenting taxation. Great abuses, he observed, had prevailed in the building of churches in Ireland. Churches had been erected in remote parishes, where the Protestant part of the population was next to nothing; and although it might be pleaded, in justification of this, that they were necessary for the accommodation of the police and water-guards, he did not admit the force of this plea, or allow that it afforded a sufficient reason for levying a tax upon the parish. He congratulated his right hon. friend (Sir J. Newport) that the object which he had been so long endeavouring to effect, was now about to be accomplished.
Sir R. Peelexplained. His object was, to have a reference made to the Crown lawyers, unaccompanied by any opinion of the House on the subject.
Mr. Stanleydid not see any objection to that course.
Mr. M. Fitzgeralddid not think that the right hon. Baronet's (Sir Robert Peel's) observations ought fairly to have been characterized as special pleading. He did not propose to enter into any special pleading; all special pleading was bad, but the special pleading of the House of Commons was abominable. He thought it desirable to have the opinion of the law-officers of the Crown on the subject; but, whatever their opinion might be, he hoped that the proceedings of Government, which seemed to have adopted the opinion of his right hon. friend (Sir J. Newport), would not prove abortive.; but that, if it was decided that the Crown had not the right to re-value the livings in Ireland, that Government would corns down to Parliament and obtain permission to revalue them. He was sure that such a proceeding was essentially important to the interests of Ireland, and calculated to strengthen the Protestant Establishment in that country.
Mr. Cramptonsaid, he should offer no opinion on the subject before the House, for if the opinion of the Irish law-officers of the Crown were to be taken on the case, it would be improper and indelicate in him, being one of those officers, to offer any remarks on the subject.
Mr. Wysewas not of opinion, that because the rate on land was low, as had
428
been stated by the hon. member for the University of Oxford, that therefore there was no grievance in it. The great body of the Catholics felt it to be a grievance to be taxed by a few Protestants; and if that practice had not led to outrage and disorder, then the whole history of Ireland was a he. The grievance was one which was felt by nine-tenths of the population. A few days ago, a petition, signed by Protestants, had been presented, requesting that House to adopt nearly the same principles as were embodied in the present Resolutions, for the sake of maintaining the security of the Protestant Establishment; and it was on that very ground that he supported the Motion.
Mr. Northconsidered, that the point proposed to be referred to the King's law-officers was one on which no reasonable doubt could be entertained. He had no doubt in the world that the Crown had the right to order a new valuation to be taken; but the question then to be considered was, whether the Crown had a right to take the First Fruits according to the new valuation or the old; and whether or not the words of the Statute of Queen Anne were to be extended to the new valuation.
Mr. Stanleyhere read the words of the Motion,—namely, that the law-officers of the Crown should inquire how far his Majesty had a right to re-value the livings in Ireland.
Mr. Northsaid, he had no doubt that his Majesty might issue a commission for that purpose to-morrow.
Sir C. Wetherellthought the question ought to be submitted to the law-officers, unaccompanied by any Resolution of that House. He considered that there were three questions to be submitted to the law-officers;—whether the Crown had the power of ordering a new valuation to be made; whether the Crown would compel payment of the First Fruits; and whether, by the Act of Queen Anne, livings should pay First Fruits according to the re-valuation, or only according to their understood value at the time of the passing of the Act.
Mr. Stanleysuggested, that it would be better if his right hon. friend would withdraw his Resolution, and allow him to substitute for it a simple Resolution to this effect, "That the opinion of the law-officers of his Majesty in Ireland be taken, how far his Majesty is now empowered to issue a Commission for the revaluation of

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benefices in Ireland, with a view to the levy of First Fruits."
Sir John Newportexpressed his willingness to agree to this suggestion, and withdrew his own Motion.
An address in the form proposed by Mr. Stanley was agreed to.

CUSTOMS' DUTIES' ACTS.
On the Motion of Lord Althorp, the House resolved itself into a Committee upon the Customs' Duties' Acts. The noble Lord, in moving a Resolution relative to the duties on raw cotton, observed that the tax of five-eighths of a penny on raw cotton was intended to supply the place of a tax abolished on printed calicoes. He knew the objections to the tax on a raw material, but it really was difficult to find out a substitute. The raw cotton imported was about 240,000,0001bs., of this, 20,000,000 came from the East Indies, leaving 220,000,000 to pay the tax, which would accordingly yield, he believed, 572,900 l. To this must be added 50,000 l. saved in the collecting, making altogether 622,900 l. From this he deducted the present ad valorem duty, amounting to 320,000 l. which would leave 302,900 l. Although the amount which he anticipated from this source would not altogether replace the loss of duty on printed calicoes, yet, looking at the reduction which had been made, and at the prosperous state of trade at present, he had no doubt that the produce of the revenue would be amply sufficient to meet the exigencies of the State. It was difficult for him to find arguments à priori to prove that a tax was good; but he had only to observe, that the present was but a substitute for a tax which had been taken off./ "He then moved, that it was the opinion of the Committee, that a tax of 5s. 10 d. be charged upon every hundred weight of cotton wool, or waste of cotton wool imported from any foreign country.
Mr. Humedisliked the tax, and recommended the noble Lord to strike off 6,000 men from the army, and then he might dispense with it.
Mr. Warburtonwas of the same opinion, and was sure that the Reform Bill would give such general satisfaction that no army would be wanted at home.
Mr. Goulburnhoped nobody would suppose that this tax would be removed in a year or two, for whoever did, would find himself disappointed.
Mr. George Robinsonexpressed his sorrow to see trade hampered by taxes, particularly after so much had been said about free trade. It would be better, at once, to adopt a property-tax, to which the House must, at last, have recourse.
Resolution agreed to—the House resumed.

COLONIAL TRADE BILL.
On the Motion of Mr. Poulett Thomson, the House went into a Committee upon the Colonial Trade Bill.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonmoved a Resolution, to the effect that the several duties, temporary and additional, named in the schedule submitted to the Committee, be imposed upon the articles therein specified.
Mr. George Robinsonobjected to the arrangement by which these duties were to be subject to modification at successive epochs, and proposed an amendment, that the scale of duties should be fixed and permanent from the date of the Bill, instead of being only temporary, as the right hon. the Vice-president of the Board of Trade had proposed.
Mr. Humewished to know when the right hon. Gentleman opposite intended to bring the whole subject of the timber duties before the House for discussion, as he and others were determined to protest against the entire measure, and the principle of protection upon which it was founded?
Mr. P. Thomsonsaid, that the scale of duties adopted was nearly the same as had been fixed upon in 1825, but of the effects of which there had not been an opportunity of forming any judgment, as their operation had been suspended by the Orders in Council. He wished the protection afforded by the proposed scale to be gradually withdrawn, so that it might be terminated in the year 1834. He considered that there would be, in the mean time, sufficient opportunity to estimate their expediency, upon which their re-enactment must depend, and if that should be found impolitic, to enable the parties interested gradually to change the employment of their capital.
Mr. George Robinsonconsented, at the suggestion of Mr. Hume, to take the sense of the House on his amendment at a future stage.—Amendment withdrawn.
Resolution agreed to—the House resumed.

THE MINISTERIAL REFORM BILL (ENGLAND).
Lord John Russellbrought in a Bill "To amend the Representation of the people in England and Wales," which, on the motion of the noble Lord, was read a first time. It began "Whereas divers abuses have long prevailed in the choice of Representatives in the Commons House of Parliament." The noble Lord then rose to propose that it be read a second time on Monday, and said, that there were one or two observations which he had to make on the present occasion. One of the boroughs which he had enumerated in the list of those which it was proposed should, for the future, return only one Member to Parliament, did at present, he found, return only one Member, and not two. This borough was Bewdley, which would, therefore, remain as at present. He had omitted also to state, that it was intended, in one or two instances, that certain large suburbs should be joined with the towns to which they belonged. Thus Chatham and Stroud would be added to Rochester; Sculcoates to Hull; and Portsea to Portsmouth. He had also omitted to state an arrangement which it was proposed to make with regard to another town. This was Devonport, in the neighbourhood of Plymouth. It was proposed that Devon-port and Stone house should be joined, and send two Members to Parliament, leaving Plymouth as it was at present. It, was also proposed that the right of suffrage should be extended to the whole parish of Halifax and the suburbs, which contained 100,000 inhabitants, and to give them the right of returning two Members. He was not aware that there was any thing else in the Bill different from the statement which he had already made to the House. He begged to move, that the Bill be read a second time on Monday next.
Mr. H. Drummondbegged to know when the Scotch Reform bill would be introduced.
The Lord Advocatesaid, he should wish to introduce that bill to-morrow. In point of fact, the bill was ready now, but there were certain schedules yet to be attached to it.
Sir G. Warrenderhoped that the second reading of the Scotch bill would not be fixed for the same day as the second reading of the other bill. It was highly desirable that they should have a separate day for the second reading of the Scotch bill.
Lord Althorphad no objection to the second reading of the Scotch bill being fixed for a different day.
Motion agreed to.

On the Motion of Lord Althorp the House went into a Committee of Supply.

BRITISH MUSEUM.
Mr. Bankesmoved that a sum, not exceeding 14,451 l. should be voted to defray the expenses of the British Museum.
Mr. Jephsoncomplained that the public were not sufficiently accommodated in the library and reading-room department. Those were closed on a Saturday, which, he conceived, was not necessary. As the subject had been referred to last Session, he wished to ask, whether any alteration would be made in the attendance of the officers of the Museum?
Mr. Bankessaid, it was necessary for cleanliness, and in order to preserve regularity of arrangement, that the library should be closed one day in the week. He believed the Museum was open to the public as many hours as any other institution of a similar description. In fact, he had inquired, and found that the attendance at the Museum was greater than the attendance a similar institutions at Paris.
Sir John Wrottesleycomplained, that though he was most anxious to visit the library of the Museum, he never had the opportunity. Saturday was the only day which Members of Parliament had to spare from their public duties during the Session, and on that day the library was closed. Although cleanliness was a good thing, that might be done on a Monday as well as Saturday. He would rather that six-pence or a shilling should be paid for admittance; and then, he was sure, the public would have easier access.
Mr. Warburtonsaw no reason why the reading-room should not be open on Saturday, though it might be necessary to keep the other rooms closed on that day.
Mr. Humeacknowledged the utility of the British Museum. The only question was, whether it might not be rendered more useful? He was sorry to perceive that the number who visited the establishment had greatly diminished. Instead of 112,000, 127,000, and 132,000, the number which, it appeared, had visited the Museum in former years, the number last year had fallen down to 68,000. He thought the Museum ought to be open on

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a greater number of days. Besides holidays it was shut up on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays.
Mr. Jephsonsuggested, that the catalogues were too expensive. Catalogues of a cheaper description would certainly be an improvement.
Mr. Wilkssaid, it appeared that only 1,890 persons visited the reading-rooms in a year. The average could not be above fifty persons in a week. It would be satisfactory if these rooms were thrown open on a Saturday, and the number was too limited to produce any serious inconvenience.
Sir John Wrottesleycalled for a distinct pledge from the hon. member for Dorsetshire that the reading-room should be open on Saturday. If that pledge was not given, he should divide the House.
Mr. Bankessaid, the trustees were anxious to comply with every request they could. He could assure the Committee, that the day the library was closed was not an idle day, as all the officers of the establishment were employed that day. As the other trustees must be consulted, he could not pledge himself as the hon. Baronet called on him to do; but, as far as his recommendation went, it should be in favour of the suggestion of the hon. Baronet.
Sir John Wrottesleyhoped, when the Report was brought up, that the hon. Member (Mr. Bankes) would be able to give a distinct answer.
Vote agreed to.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. C. W. Wynnthen came forward to propose the remaining Army Estimates., He moved that the sum of 376,111 l. 7s. 6d. be granted to defray the expenses of the charge for recruiting and other miscellaneous expenses, for his Majesty's Land Forces.
Colonel Daviesobjected to the large amount of the Army Estimates. The Government was pledged to economy, and when the Committee found an increase of 250,000 l. in the Army Estimates, he thought his Majesty's Ministers were bound to give better reasons for the increase than they had done. If the Army Estimates were referred to a Committee, he pledged himself to prove that a larger education might be made in the expense, without impairing the efficiency of the military establishments. The present Secretary at War was not a heaven-born Minister; and,
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with all respect, he must tell him, that he was profoundly ignorant of all matters connected with the army. The right hon. Gentleman had never spoken, he believed, on an army estimate, until he was appointed Secretary at War. It was too much the case in the present Ministry, and others, to put gentlemen into offices, for political purposes, without considering how far they were fitted to fill those offices. With the exception of the Secretary for Foreign Affairs (Lord Palmerston), and perhaps one other person, there was no one in the Cabinet, who, if orders were given to march, would know whether he should put out his right or his left leg foremost. As the late Ministry and the present were both pledged to keep up the establishments, he should not divide the Committee; but he protested against the amount, as unnecessarily large.
Lord George Lennoxsuggested, that the riding establishment at St. John's Wood, was considered by cavalry officers to be an unnecessary expense, and one that might be got rid of without detriment to the public service. The dépôt at Maid-stone was also unnecessary, and ought to be removed to Chatham.
Sir Henry Hardingewas not a cavalry officer, and should not, therefore, give any opinion for himself; but be happened to know, that the present Commander-in-chief was impressed with the great utility of the riding establishment; and he believed that the noble Lord had not given a correct account of the prevalent opinion of cavalry officers.
An Hon. Member, as Colonel of a cavalry regiment, felt himself called upon to express an opinion in favour of the riding establishment, which, he contended, was of great use, because it gave an uniform character to the riding throughout the service. It would be more beneficial, however, he thought, but for the parsimony of the Government, which prevented proper discipline from being enforced at the establishment at St. John's Wood.
Mr. C. W. Wynnobserved, that he had no doubt the gallant officer (Col. Davies), who had made such strong remarks on his ignorance of the duties of his office, would have filled that office himself with more advantage to the country than he could pretend to do; and as the office was likely soon to become vacant, it was to be hoped his Majesty's Government would not overlook the merits of the gallant Colonel.

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He was certainly of opinion, that a man of very moderate abilities might, if he chose to take the trouble to give attention to the subject, very easily, and in a short time, roaster the knowledge required for the situation which he had the honour to hold. With regard to the riding establishments, he confessed that he formerly entertained great doubts as to the propriety, and even the expediency, of continuing them up to their present extent; but officers of the very highest authority in these matters, eyen up to the Commander-in-chief, had expressed themselves to be in favour of them; and it was certain, also, that they had produced the greatest good to the cavalry, by introducing an uniform system of equitation into all horse regiments.
Mr. Humeremarked, that so long as this country continued to act on the policy which had for many years been her guide —that of interfering with the foreign continental powers—it was not possible that her present military establishment could be reduced to any great extent. He had ever been much averse from this system of interference in the settlement of foreign Powers, and he now condemned most decidedly the intervention by this Government in the affairs of Belgium. He was disposed to predict that the consequence would be, either England must withdraw from all interference in the affairs of that State, which she would do with disgrace, or that, if she persisted in her present policy, the inevitable result would be a war. With regard to the Estimates now before the Committee, he considered it utterly needless to cavil at small sums; he looked forward to a period when a reduction in their amount pf one million would be effected, and that period, he trusted, was not far distant.
Mr. Irvingprofessed himself a friend to ships, colonies, and commerce. He contended, that this country would never have been able to have maintained her station and dignity amongst the family of European Powers, had she not acted on the system which the hon. member for Middlesex now so strongly condemned—that, namely, of maintaining herself constantly in a condition ready for war. He, for one, highly approved of the preparations which had been made for hostilities, and would have been glad to see those preparations carried on, on a scale still more extended, for England would thereby do more than could be done in any other manner to pre-
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serve that peace in Europe which it was the interest of every Power to maintain. He trusted, therefore, that the best interests of the country would never be sacrificed to any sordid and unworthy motives of economy. He was disposed to think that, if any man in the country had done more than another to depreciate the importance and to undervalue the resources of England, the hon. member for Middlesex was that man. He rejected the sordid economy recommended by that hon. Member, which had only reference to matters of pounds, shillings, and pence, instead of taking into account the great and leading interests of the country. He denied that there was any such unusual distress as had been represented to that House, for he was inclined to believe, that it was not greater at these times than it had been during former periods of her history.
Mr. Warburtonobserved, that the hon. member for Bramber had paid a high compliment to the hon. member for Middlesex, in attributing to him the attention which the House now fixed on the pounds, shillings, and pence of the country; for he had, in doing that, only called their attention to matters which it was one of the most important duties of that House to examine most carefully into. He entirely coincided in the opinion of the hon. member for Middlesex, and in the observations which had fallen from him, with respect to the interference of this country with foreign European States.
Mr. Humewas surprised to hear an English merchant, like the hon. member for Bramber, utter such a sentiment, as that financial matters were unworthy of attention. What was it led to our present load of debt, and to the continued extravagant expenditure of years, but the votes of the hon. member for Bramber, and the hon. Members professing similar principles, who filled that House, and who supported the Minister of the day in all his extravagance? He would tell that hon. Member that he (Mr. Hume) had never underrated the resources of this country; on the contrary, he had always complained of the misrule and the mismanagement by which those resources had been ill-applied and misdirected; and he had always contended, that if that misrule were once removed, the country was fully able to right itself.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, the House had already agreed to the number of men voted

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for the year, when it might have been proper to discuss the policy of the measure; but on that vote, which was for the contingencies of the service, such a discussion was misplaced.
Resolution agreed to.
Mr. C. W. Wynnthen moved, that a sum not exceeding 124,522 l. 8s. be granted to his Majesty, to defray the charge of the General, Staff, and Medical Officers, in Great Britain, Ireland, and Foreign Stations, excepting the East Indies, The right hon. Gentleman stated, that his noble friend, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, had directed his attention to the Staff in the Colonies? and he hoped, before the end of the year, to be able to make a large reduction.
Colonel Daviesthought, that a great reduction might still be made in the Foreign Staff, and especially in that of North America. In the Ionian Islands, too, considerable saving might be made under that head.
Mr. C. W. Wynnthought that some reductions in the Staff in the Canadas might hereafter be made. Inquiries were then making upon the subject.
Sir H. Hardingedefended the vote, and thought that none of the General Officers could be dispensed with in the colonies. The appointments were chiefly conferred upon those whose length of service entitled them to the gratitude of their country.
Mr. Humeexpressed a hope that the time was near when those Governors would not be allowed to draw their military pay together with their civil allowance as governors. The Utmost extravagance prevailed in those departments. As an instance of it, he would state, that the Commander-in-chief in England received nine guineas a day; while the Commander-in-chief in Canada received the same sum, though he had nothing to do in comparison, and had extra allowances. The country ought not to be put to the expense of one shilling for the military establishment of the Canadas; and it was well known that this was the sentiment of the Canadians themselves. The establishment of that colony was scandalously extravagant. He objected also to the extravagance of having four Adjutant-generals, and four Quarter-master-generals, at head-quarters in England in time of peace. But the whole was a system of extravagance, against which he protested in the strongest manner, but which, he hoped, would be done
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away in better times, when pounds, shillings, and pence, were more attended to.
Resolution agreed to.
Mr. C. W. Wynnthen moved, that the sum of 103,897 l. be granted for allowances to the principal Officers of public military departments of Great Britain and Ireland.
Mr. Humethought the vote exhibited an instance of pure extravagance, for in 1796 the whole of this head of expenditure did not exceed 46,000 l.
Sir H. Hardingesaid, that the number of clerks had been reduced since the war from 109 to 60, and he defied the hon. member for Middlesex to show that the business of the war department could be conducted with a smaller number.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, that no new appointments had taken place for four years, and the numbers had been reduced as low as possible.
Resolution agreed to.
The sum of 12,420 l. was voted for medicines and surgical materials for the land forces without remark.
Mr. C. W. Wynnthen moved, that the sum of 33,855 l. be voted for the charge of garrisons at home and abroad.
Mr. Humeconsidered this as merely a vote for sinecures. Many of the garrisons had not a single gun, or one implement of war; and as parliamentary influence was soon to be at an end, 20,000 l. out of this sum might be saved. He should watch narrowly if any of these governorships became vacant, and if Ministers filled up the places by new appointments he should know what course to pursue.
Sir H. Hardingehoped that these places could not be reformed, for the noble Lord who had brought forward the measure of Reform would find that the Finance Committee had acknowledged them to afford the best means of rewarding meritorious services.
Colonel Sibthorpapproved of what had fallen from the gallant Officer, and could not support the opinions of the hon. member for Middlesex.
Mr. Warburtonwished to know what public services had been performed by the governor of Dartmouth for the 1741. a-year he received.
Sir H. Hardingeadmitted that this appointment was objectionable. The place had, however, been held by one family for twenty years, but when it became vacant, a different character of appointment would

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be established. The argument upon this place had been repeated till it had become threadbare.
Mr. R. Gordondisapproved of the appointment. It was not conferred upon a deserving military officer, it was a mere sinecure.
Mr. G. Robinsonthought that the island of Placentia presented a similar instance of an objectionable appointment.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, it was not the duty of his office to go through a justification of every department.
Mr. Humeexclaimed—"Yes, it is."
Mr. C. W. Wynncould not possibly go through the services of every individual who filled these situations. It was a part of the prerogative of the Crown to fill them up, and nothing could be worse than to teach officers to look to that House for a reward of their services.
Mr. Humewas surprised at the truly unconstitutional and objectionable language of the hon. Member, It was the prerogative of the Crown to grant appointments; but it was for that House alone to say whether it would pay the salaries.
Mr. C. W. Wynnacknowledged that the House had the power of determining if the situations should exist; but if they did exist, it was the prerogative of the Crown to fill them up.
Mr. Beaumontadvised the Committee to put off this discussion till they had a reformed Parliament.
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, that the governor of Dartmouth had no duties whatever to perform.
On this vote the Committee divided when there appeared, For the grant 95; Against it 19 —Majority for Ministers,
The grant of 5,627 l. for the Military College at Sandhurst was agreed to after Mr. Hume had protested against the propriety of continuing a salary of 1,000 l. a year to the governor.
The House resumed.

BOUNDARIES IN AMERICA.
Mr. G. Robinsonmoved an Address to his Majesty for the production of the Papers relative to the dispute between this country and the United States of America, with respect to the boundary-line between the English Colonies in North America, and the United States, and for the production of the decision of the king of Holland
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upon this subject, which had been referred to his arbitration. The hon. Member stated, that it was generally understood that that sovereign had lately decided the question, and that the United States refused to abide by the verdict of the arbitrator.
Lord Palmerstonopposed the Motion, on the ground that the transaction was yet incomplete. He must state to the House, that the papers could not, in the present state of the transaction, be safely granted.
Mr. G. Robinsonsaid, that he was convinced the fact was, that the decision had been unfavourable to the United States, and that the Government had been weak enough to allow it to be referred back to the United States. He should not press his Motion.
The Motion negatived.