Commons Sitting of 27 June 1831

MINUTES.
Bills brought in, and read a first time. By Mr. LITTLETON, for continuing the Turnpike Acts in Great Britain. By Mr. STANLEY, Patents-Grants (Ireland). By Sir G. CLERK, for amending the Turnpike Acts (Scot-

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land). By Lord ALTHORP, to reduce the Salary of the Master of the Mint; and to Repeal an Act prohibiting the Growth of Tobacco in Ireland. Read a second time, Waterloo Bridge New Street; Buckingham Garden Wall; Customs and Excise Oaths; Duchy of Cornwall Leases; Lunatics Bills Committee; Canada Revenue.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. ROBINSON, an Account of Gloves imported. On the Motion of Mr. CHOICER, the Population (according to the last Census) of Boroughs now sending Members to Parliament, and which it is proposed shall send Members by the Reform Bill.
Petitions presented. By Mr. HUNT, from Milborne Port, for Revision of the Tithe Laws; from the Borough of Leslie (Fife), against the East-India Monopoly, and Corn Laws; from Collumkill in Ireland, for the Repeal of the Union; from Llangammarch, and other places in Wales, for alteration in the Tithe Laws. By Lord KILLEEN, from the County of Meath, in favour of Reform; and from Borminy (Meath), for an increased number of Members. By Mr. MORE O'FARREL, from County of Louth, for General Drainage of Bogs.

PRIVILEGE.
The Speakersaid, that before the House proceeded to public business, it would be as well for him to mention a subject to which his attention had been called in former Parliaments, and which had again, during this Parliament, been made a matter of complaint— he alluded to the practice of summoning Members of that House upon Juries during the continuance of the Session. At times, and, of course, when Members had only recently entered that House, they were in doubt as to the course they ought to pursue, for not only was there a summons served on them, to attend in the Courts, but if they neglected that summons there was afterwards a notice of distress issued against them for non-compliance with the summons. Members must know, upon a little consideration of the case, that it was their first duty to attend in their place in that House, and for that reason, and that reason only, they were exempt from attendance on Juries during the Session of Parliament. He was convinced, that the summons to attend the Courts, and the notice of distress afterwards issued, could only proceed from the inadvertence of the officers; and he hoped that from the time of this public notice, there would be, in the first place, no summons served on a Member during the sitting of Parliament, and certainly not a notice of distress issued in case he did not attend.

NEW FOUNDLAND.
Mr. George Robinsonwished to put a few questions to the noble Lord opposite, the Under Secretary for the Colonies, with regard to the Island of Newfoundland, and upon the answers which he should receive would depend the mode in which he (Mr. Robinson) should
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act in reference to that subject. He wished, in the first instance, to know whether any determination had been come to by his Majesty's Government with regard to the petition which had been presented from the inhabitants of Newfoundland, praying that a local legislature should be granted to them. His next question was, whether any instructions had been given to the governor of that colony to protect his Majesty's subjects in exercising their concurrent right with the French, of fishing on what was called the French coast? In the third place he was desirous to know, whether it was the intention of the noble Lord to bring in any measures for revising the laws in force in that Island, for regulating the fisheries, and for the administration of justice. If he did not receive satisfactory answers to those questions from the noble Lord, he should feel it his duty to bring the subject under the consideration of the House as soon as possible.
Lord Howickbegged to state, in answer to the first question of the hon. Member, that the petition referred to had attracted the serious attention of his Majesty's Government, and that it was the full persuasion of his Majesty's Government, that the people of Newfoundland were entitled, taking into account the wealth and importance of the Island, to have a direct control in the management of their own affairs; but they could not conceal from themselves, that there would be great difficulty in introducing a local legislature into a colony in which there was only one town of considerable importance—namely, St. John's. The other towns of Newfoundland were at a great distance from St. John's; they were all small towns, and the communication between them and St. John's was, during a great portion of the year, entirely cut off. It would be impossible, therefore, if a local legislature were established there, that any influence could be possessed over it, unless by the town of St. John's. It was plain, then, that it would be extremely difficult to introduce what was understood by a local legislature into that colony. He trusted, however, that by the adoption of other measures the inhabitants of that Island would obtain some share in the management of their own affairs. With respect to affording protection to the English fishing on the French shore, he did not take the view which the hon. Member appeared to take of that point. It should be recollected

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that the right to fish there was disputed by the French, and the treaty of 1783, and the declaration which was made subsequently, in consequence of that treaty, rendered it extremely doubtful that the English possessed any such right. At all events, the question was still a matter of doubt; and while it remained undecided, Government could not act as the hon. Member desired. With regard to the revision of the laws in force in Newfoundland, he begged to say, that he had no intention whatever to bring in any new Act for that purpose this Session.
Mr. George Robinsonsaid, that under such circumstances, he felt it his duty to give notice, that upon the 5th of July he should move an Address to the Crown, with regard to the state of Newfoundland.

REFORM PETITIONS.—RIOTS IN SCOTLAND.
Mr. Charles Douglas,on presenting a Petition from the Noblemen, Freeholders, Justices of the Peace, and Heritors of the County of Forfar, against the Reform in Parliament, as connected with Scotland, said, the petitioners expressed their fears, that the proposed alterations in the manner of returning Members would not be attended with beneficial effects. They complained of the diminution of County Members, and the increase of Borough Representation, and that the admission of 10 l. householders to the right of voting, would give them an undue preponderance over the landed interest. These were the principal points in the petition, and the petitioners entreated the House not to omit the consideration of these topics in any measure connected with Scotch Representation that might come before them.
Mr. Mauleobserved, that as the petition came from the county which he had the honour to represent, he hoped to be indulged in making a few remarks. He acknowledged the great respectability of the petitioners, but he did not hesitate to aver, that their petition did not speak the sense of the county of Forfar, the inhabitants of which were generally in favour of the measure of Reform introduced by Government. He was glad to have that opportunity to express his grateful thanks to his Majesty's Ministers for having brought it forward, and it should have his humble and sincere support.
Mr. Horatio Rossknew something of the county from whence the petition came, and
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added his testimony to that of his hon. friend who had just spoken. He believed, that ninety-nine out of every hundred persons of the population of Forfar were favourable to the change proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. Before that plan had been brought forward, there were many persons in favour of Universal Suffrage and Annual Parliaments, but on the details of the proposed measure being placed before them, they expressed their unbounded satisfaction with it, and were now loud in their calls for its being passed into a law. He was sure no measure could have enlisted more of the best wishes of the people, and they would hear no more from that part of the country of Universal Suffrage.
Mr. Charles Douglassaid, he did not present this as the petition of the county of Forfar, as had been insinuated by the hon. Members, but as the petition of the respectable persons who had signed it, and who resided in that county. He must add, that the petitioners did not express themselves to be unfavourable to Reform generally, they only stated their apprehensions of some parts of the proposed measure.
Mr. R. Dundaswished to take that opportunity of asking the Lord Advocate, whether proceedings had been instituted against any of the persons who were concerned in the late riots which had taken place in different parts of Scotland. There had been most formidable riots at Ayr and Dunbar, and in several other places in Scotland; and it would be satisfactory to know whether any proceedings had been taken to bring the offenders to justice.
The Lord Advocatesaid, that he would answer the question of the hon. Member as explicitly as he could at the present moment, seeing that all the proceedings which had been instituted in those cases had not been as yet brought to a termination. He had ordered proceedings to be instituted, and he had to state, that indictments had been drawn out against an individual for being concerned in a riot at Lanark, and also against another rioter in another place. The investigation at Lanark was still going on, and it was expected that the public prosecutor would be able to include another individual in the indictment for the riot there. Indictments had also been preferred against three or four individuals who had been concerned in the formidable riots at Cawdor. It was true, that there had been

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also formidable and distressing riots in Ayr and Dunbar. With regard to them inquiries had been instituted, and were at present in progress. With respect to Ayr, he regretted to say, that it had not yet been possible to identify any of the rioters there. He had sent down a barrister of great skill and considerable experience to examine into the subject, but nevertheless he had not as yet been able to make out a case against any individual as being connected with the riots which had occurred in Ayr, to justify the preferring of an indictment against him. These investigations, however, were still in progress, and he trusted that the justice of the country would finally be effectually vindicated.
Mr. Kennedycontended, that it had been attempted, by a reference to those riots, to cast an unjust stigma upon the disposition and character of the people of Scotland. The people of Scotland—that was to say the intelligent and well-educated mass of the people of that country— had no connexion with those riotous proceeding's, which had originated with that low and disorderly class of persons that constitute mobs in all countries. He begged to contradict, in the strongest manner, the assertion which had been made in another place, that the people of Scotland only wanted a chief to lead them on to any mischief; so far was this from the fact, that nothing could be more sound and well-disposed than the minds of the respectable classes in that country.
Sir W. Raesaid, that he had been exposed to much obloquy and abuse in Scotland, in consequence of a misrepresentation of what had fallen from him in the last Session, in reference to some riotous proceedings which had then taken place. He had been represented as having said, that there was no bringing a number of Scotchmen together without their proceeding to the commission of acts of riot and bloodshed. What he said was, and he would repeat it, that the people of Scotland, when excited, were very apt to proceed to acts of riot and violence, and that though it was extremely difficult to excite them, when a numerous body of them were excited, they were by no means easily allayed or pacified. That was his statement, and the late riots in that country furnished a proof of its correctness.
Admiral Adamreferred to the proceedings at the Stirling election in proof that the Scotch people could conduct those
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matters as peaceably as their neighbours. Though the popular candidate had been defeated at Stirling, there had not been the slightest exhibition of violence on the part of the people. The election was attended by 7,000 or 8,000 persons, and upon learning the defeat of the favourite candidate, the people reversed their colours, the music ceased, and they marched peaceably off the ground without committing any act of violence or outrage.
Sir George Clerkcould not help thinking, that the good conduct of the people who appeared at the election for Stirling in so formidable an attitude, was mainly owing to the advice of the Sheriff, founded upon the opinion of the Lord Advocate, as to the illegality of the whole proceedings. He conceived, that the gross outrages and violence which had taken place at the late elections in Scotland, justified the conclusion that, when the people of that country were assembled in mobs, they were more apt to proceed to acts of violence than the people of this part of the country. He wished to call the attention of the learned Lord opposite to what had taken place at Haddington. The people had there violently rescued some persons who had been proceeded against for rioting, and when they were warned not to do so, they said they were not afraid that the Lord Advocate would prosecute them. He was very far from saying, that the learned Lord Advocate, or any one connected with the Government, wished to raise or excite the people; but it could not be denied, he believed, that the friends of the Government had allowed the people to assume a disorderly appearance, for the purpose of intimidating voters, and influencing the election. An idea, unfortunately, got abroad, that the Government did not disapprove of those proceedings; and this feeling was so strong and universal, that the learned Lord found it necessary to publish a hand-bill at Haddington, stating that the people were entirely deceived if they thought he should neglect his duty, which was, to bring all concerned in those illegal proceedings to condign punishment. Before the agitation of the Reform question, there was no part of his Majesty's dominions more peaceable than Scotland; the consequence of which was, that nearly the whole military force was withdrawn from that country. When the riots broke out in Edinburgh there was only one cavalry regiment in Scotland,

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and that regiment was under orders for Ireland. In consequence of the riotous proceedings which had taken place, however, it became necessary to augment the military force of that country; and he did not know whether the hon. Baronet who had to move the Army Estimates (Sir H. Parnell) might not find it necessary to ask for an increase of the military force, in consequence of the disturbed state of Scotland. He feared, however, that the country was not yet restored to a state of tranquillity which might be considered permanent. He wished particularly to call the attention of the noble Lord to a statement which had appeared in the papers, relative to an assembly of the people, which was to take place at Glasgow. The people, it was stated, had leaders, and banners, and symbols, and were at an appointed signal, to collect in large numbers, and march in procession. He wished to know if measures had been taken to preserve the peace. Nothing, however, in his opinion, was more likely to prevent any disturbance than for the learned Lord to state publicly the illegality of such meetings.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusonthought it unwarrantable for any man to say, when a great public meeting was peaceable, that it would not have been so but for the advice of the Sheriff. He would be bound to say, that if judicial proceedings were to be instituted, it would be found that not one of the rioters was a person to whom the elective franchise was to be granted by the new Bill. There could not exist a more loyal and peaceable population than that of the county alluded to. It was absolute madness to suppose, that any man favourable to Reform, and holding the situation of the Lord Advocate, could wish otherwise than to suppress violence at elections. He positively denied that the Government had occasioned any popular excitement. The Reform Bill was a fit and proper measure, and those who opposed it ought to bear the blame of the tumults that ensued.
Mr. Hopeprotested against the conclusion, that those who opposed Reform were to bear the blame of these tumults. It was true, that there was no riot at Stirling, but if the people had no intention to intimidate, why did they arm themselves, and unite in a body. At Lanark and at Dumbarton, the lives of both the anti-Reform candidates were threatened. He
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thought these acts were proofs enough of the violent disposition of the people, and he did not wish to hear of their being multiplied.
The Lord Advocatewished to say a few words in reply to the hon. Baronet, respecting his communication with the Sheriff of Haddington. The people there believed that the investigation was instituted by the Sheriff, who was not very popular it appeared, and his communication was for the purpose of assuring the people, that the investigation was going on by his authority, and that the parties would not be brought to condign punishment by the Sheriff, but by the chief law-officer of the Government. Respecting the assemblage at Stirling, and other places, he could only say, that the Crown officers had kept an anxious eye on them, and that every precaution had been taken to prevent any serious results. He must, at the same time say, in justice to the people, that previous to the motion for the second reading of the Bill during the last Parliament, a very numerous assembly had been collected at Glasgow with banners; but that, though the result was unfavourable, they separated without the slightest disturbance. It was that instance, as well as some others, which led him to believe that such serious results were not to be apprehended merely from the collection of a great body of the people. He was well aware, however, that on a day of election the case might be very different, and had therefore used every precaution against disturbance. On investigation it would be found, he believed, that very few of those to whom the franchise was held out, had been implicated in the disturbances.
An Hon. Memberbore testimony to the violence that had accompanied many of the recent elections in Scotland, but he denied, that from the popular vehemence any inference could be drawn that the people were favourable to Reform. He called upon Ministers to look at the whole of the provincial press of Scotland, and learn from thence whether the people of that country were in favour of the Bill. He would call on his Majesty's Ministers to look at this provincial press, and they would see that each editor, in his little recess, was carrying on a progress of incubation, as he thought, against the Bill, although he must confess that, in his opinion, their incubations seemed often to tend more to favour the measure than to oppose it.
Mr. Dixon,as the Representative of Glasgow, wished to give the most unqualified contradiction to the calumnious statements of the hon. Baronet (Sir G. Clerk.)
The Speakercalled the hon. Member to order, and observed, that such expressions were not parliamentary.
Mr. Dixonapologised, and added, that he did not mean to attribute calumny to the hon. Baronet. He had seen a procession in Glasgow of 40,000 persons in favour of Reform, and not a single instance of tumult had occurred, and women and children had met it. in the streets without any apprehension or inconvenience. In the course of his canvass, he had been surrounded by thousands of persons, and he had experienced no insult nor molestation. In other places, certainly, scenes had been exhibited which he, in common with every other person, could not but deplore; but it must be recollected that the people had been excited by the threats of introducing the military. If the whole city of Glasgow were polled out, he was convinced that out of its 200,000 inhabitants, 199,000 would be in favour of his Majesty's Ministers.
Mr. W. F. Campbellsaid, that although a few persons might have acted infamously in Lanark, yet the accounts of what had taken place there were grossly and shamefully exaggerated. He had seen 200 troops charge through a mob of people, and the military had been called in most unnecessarily, for of the 300 Special Constables not one had been maltreated, or had lost a single staff.
Petition laid on the Table.
Mr. Charles Douglas,in moving that it be printed, said, that he had attained his object by calling the attention of Government to the matter, for he had no doubt that steps would be taken to prevent the recurrence of such disgraceful conduct as took place in Scotland during the late elections.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusondid not rise to say one word in justification of any rioting, for he reprobated such conduct as much as any man, but he must assert, that those who were friendly to Reform had always recommended and counselled the people to keep the peace.
The petition was ordered to be printed.

PROSECUTION OF Mr. O'CONNELL.
Lord Althorpmoved the Order of the Day
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that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.
The Marquis of Chandossaid, the House would probably recollect, that when he formerly had put a question to his Majesty's Ministers respecting their intentions on the subject of the prosecutions against the hon. member for Kerry, he had felt himself perfectly satisfied with the answer which he had received from the Chief Secretary for Ireland; but the course which Ministers had pursued since the dissolution of Parliament had by no means accorded with what the right honourable Secretary had said in reply to his question. It had been given out that the Irish Government had acted as they had done, in consequence of the advice they had received from the Law-officers of the Crown, and he now rose to know, whether his Majesty's Ministers would have any objection to lay on the Table of the House the correspondence which had taken place between them and their legal advisers on the question.
Mr. Stanleyhad already stated, fully and clearly, the grounds upon which the hon. member for Kerry had not been brought up for judgment. If he were disposed to enter into a quibble with the noble Marquis, he should say, that the law had been allowed to take its course. With respect to the production of the correspondence, he was not prepared to accede to that request, and if, on any future occasion, the noble Marquis should think proper to bring forward a motion on the subject, he should be prepared to oppose it.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that if such a motion were made, he would be the first man in that House to second it. He wished the House to be put in possession of the whole of the case. The proceedings had taken place upon a statute which no Minister would dare to apply to England —a statute which gave to one man the arbitrary power of deciding what were public meetings and what were not. This had very truly been called an Algerine Act; and yet an English nobleman had thought proper to say, that he would give his sanction to prosecutions under such a law. The statute had expired, and the malignity of certain persons had been disappointed in not seeing brought up for judgment the man who had not, as they knew, committed any offence.
Mr. Lefroysaid, if that statute had not been in existence, and if it had not been

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carried into effect, no man could have answered for the peace of Ireland. It was impossible to see the assemblages of the people, and their processions with banners, at that time in Dublin, and to hear the speeches that were addressed to them, without being convinced, that some strong and effective measure was imperatively called for. No other measure than that to which the Government resorted would have been sufficient. By bringing that Act into operation, the Government maintained the peace of Ireland.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that the hon. and learned Gentleman—the learned Gentleman had made use of language which no lawyer ought to utter, and which no man who considered what he said would utter. He (Mr. Lefroy) had said, that there were assemblages of people, and speeches delivered to them, so dangerous to the peace of the country as to render necessary the operation of that statute justly called the Algerine Act. But he (Mr. O'Connell) would ask the hon. and learned Gentleman why did not the Crown Lawyers— why did not the learned Gentleman himself—volunteer a prosecution, if at those meetings or in those dangerous speeches there were anything contrary to law— anything for which any man could be indicted? But when the Government was about to do an act of justice to that country, there were meetings held, at which speeches were delivered, and by Law-officers of the Crown too, dangerous to the peace of Ireland, and menacing- the Government. [The hon. and learned Gentleman was prevented from proceeding by cries of "Spoke."]
Sir C. Wetherellsaid, that the hon. member for Kerry had declared that no lawyer would pronounce his conduct a legal offence, or volunteer a prosecution. Now he (Sir C. Wetherell) was a lawyer, and would—
Mr. O'Connell.—I said, "independent of that one statute."
Sir C. Wetherell.—Oh, that then is a drawback on the whole proposition; it was a discount of the proposition to the amount of 100 per cent. Had not the noble Lord at the head of the Government declared, that he would take care that the law was carried into effect, and had not the noble Lord at the head of the Exchequer said, that sooner than the prosecution should be stopped, he would incur even a civil war t [No, no!] Well, then, the
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noble Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, that he would brave a civil war sooner than consent to a Repeal of the Union— was not that the noble Lord's declaration? Well, and was not the Repeal of the Union one of the prominent topics of the public speeches of the hon. member for Kerry? He got up to say, that he applauded the noble Lord for his declaration. They had, to be sure, an aristocracy yet in being, to which the noble head of the Government, the noble Chancellor of the Exchequer, and some few others of his colleagues belonged; but he did not know, and would not take it upon him to say, how long, under the present system of revolution—in which those noble person-ages more or less assisted—how long that aristocracy would be permitted to exist. Why (he would again ask) did the Government abandon prosecutions to which they were in policy, honour, and consistency, pledged? It was no excuse to say, that the statute under which they had proceeded as far as they did, had expired, for, if necessary to their purpose, why not get it renewed, were it only for one year?
Lord Althorpfelt it right to say one word in explanation of what had fallen from the hon. and learned Gentleman. It was true, that he had made use of strong language in the last Session with reference to the state of Ireland—that he had stated, that he was satisfied in his own mind, that the Repeal of the Union with that country, then much agitated, would lead to the dismemberment of the empire; and that therefore, sooner than that dismemberment should take place, he should prefer the hazard of a civil war. That was what he did say, and would repeat. But he had never said—as the hon. and learned Gentleman would insinuate—that he would prefer civil war to foregoing the prosecutions then pending, or any prosecutions whatever; for he never, for one moment, could harbour such a monstrous proposition.
Sir C. Wetherellhad understood the language of the noble Lord to be applied to the Repeal of the Union, not to the prosecutions, and in that sense he had alluded to it.
Mr. Warrecontended that, as the statute to which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred had originated with his own party, and not with the present Government or its supporters, Ministers were not called upon to propose its renewal.

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It was true that it was a measure which had received the assent of the House at large; but the party now in power only gave it the negative support of not opposing it, because they considered it a part of the price or preliminary conditions of the great measure of Catholic Emancipation.
Sir E. Sugdenwas astonished at the observations of the hon. Member who had just sat down, because the members of the present Administration supported the Government which brought forward that statute. He was one of those who had voted for the Act, because he was convinced of its expediency, without reference to any other measure, and was prepared to vindicate the grounds on which he had given his vote. Its odium, if there was any, was fairly imputable to the House at large.
Mr. O'Connellwas again proceeding to address the House, but was called to order, and informed by the Speaker, that he could not again speak upon that motion.
The discussion dropped.

FLEET AT PORTSMOUTH.
Captain Bolderowas anxious to obtain some information from the right hon. First Lord of the Admiralty, on a matter, as it appeared to him, of great public importance. He had just come up to town from Portsmouth, where he had seen a very large fleet, and he was anxious to know from the proper quarter for what object that fleet was thus collected. [Laughter.] He really saw nothing laughable in the matter, and was surprised that a question of great public interest, not only in a financial point of view, but as it bore upon the internal and external relations of the country, should be attempted to be got rid of in this way, with such unbecoming levity. It was the largest fleet that had been collected at Portsmouth for the last sixteen years, and evidently could only have been collected at great expense to the country. He wished to know what was its object? Was it to wage war against a foreign Power, or was it for the purpose of carrying on some naval experiment? In either case explanation was necessary—the rather, as the King's Speech stated that we were at peace with all the world.
Sir J. Graham,in answering the hon. Member, begged to say, first, that the fleet to which he alluded was not assem-
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bled for the purpose of hostile aggression upon any foreign power; and, in the second place, was not assembled for the mere purpose of experiments in naval science. The fact was, that the necessary evolutions in naval warfare required a considerable deal of preliminary practice, and all that was intended by the assembling of the fleet at Spit head was, to take advantage of the summer-months in practising those evolutions. The number of ships assembled was seven sail of the Line, with frigates and sloops.

SLAVERY IN THE WEST INDIES.
Lord Howickstated, in answer to a question by an hon. Member, that it was not the intention of Ministers to propose, in the present Session, any compulsory regulations with respect to the manumission of Slaves in the Colonies, and would not bring that subject under the consideration of the House during this Session.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
The House went into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. Tennysonbrought forward the Ordnance Estimates. The hon. Member said, that as he expected no opposition to the grants, they being in fact merely the complement of the year, which had not been provided for, owing to the late dissolution of Parliament, and were precisely the same as those presented before the Dissolution, he would not enter into any statement now of their details, but he was ready at the same time to afford any information that might be required. He hoped they might be allowed to proceed unopposed to the same stage as they reached in the last Parliament.
Mr. Humesaid, as he considered the present votes to be merely matters of form, he would not offer them any opposition —the rather, as he expected a more fitting opportunity for discussing them on the occasion of their next presentation.
The several Estimates were then put seriatim, and agreed to without any opposition.
Mr. Humewished to learn from the hon. Gentleman, whether the regulation which he had himself stated last session, with respect to the filling up of vacancies in the Ordnance-Office had been adhered to; he meant, whether half-pay officers had been called upon to fill such vacancies as might have occurred in that department, to which they were competent?
Mr. Tennysonwas happy to state, in answer to his hon. friend, that the present Master-general of the Ordnance had since his accession to office rigidly adhered to that regulation, and that further improvements, by which a considerable saving would accrue, were in contemplation.
Sir H. Hardingewas apprehensive lest it should be inferred out of doors, from the tone of the statement just made, that the late Board of Ordnance presented an unfavourable contrast to its present successor, so far as economy and an efficient discharge of duty was concerned. He therefore begged the hon. Gentleman to state whether any, and what, difference with respect to the appointment of half-pay officers to vacant situations in the Ordnance existed between the present and the late Board of Ordnance?
Mr. Tennysonstated, that he was willing to bear testimony to the efficiency and economy of the management of the late Board of Ordnance.
Colonel Maberlywished also to state, that there was in the late Board of Ordnance a strong desire to conduct the public service as economically as possible.
Sir H. Hardingefelt thankful for such a candid admission, and in seeking it was only anxious to prevent unfavourable inferences out of doors with respect to the late management of the Ordnance department.
Mr. Huntthought the information was equally necessary to prevent misconception within doors, as he himself, for one, should have gone away with the impression that the present Board had effected marvellous improvements which their predecessors had neglected. He now knew that they were equally efficient, and equally entitled to praise. He was rather surprised to see these Estimates pass nem. con. in silence, and that the great Cerberus of the public money had, on this occasion, been sleeping on his post. He knew not why he should do so.
Mr. Humesaid, that the only way of deciding the point at issue between the late and the present Government was, by calling for the return of the number of appointments made by each. He had no intention, in the question which he had asked, to make any insinuations to the prejudice of the late Master-general of the Ordnance: on the contrary, he had always endeavoured to do ample justice to the public services of that distinguished
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Officer. Before he sat down, he wished to say one word in the way of explanation. The reason why he allowed the present Estimates to be agreed to, without objection on his part, and in their present form, by the last Parliament, was this, that he thought the King's Government was exposed to sufficient opposition from various quarters without his numbering him among their opponents. This consideration induced him to abstain from opposition, at a moment when it was of the very highest importance, that the King's Government should not be surrounded with any embarrassments that could by possibility be avoided. But let the great measure of Reform be once carried, and they might be assured that they would find him quite as severe a scrutinizer of the proceedings of Ministers as ever he had been.

NAVY-ESTIMATES.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that in bringing forward the Navy Estimates on this occasion, he did not think it necessary to make any observations, as they were the same which had been presented and agreed to by the House in the last session of Parliament. All the difference between the present and the late Estimates was, that in the present he had brought down the balance from the 1st of January to the 1st of April. He concluded by moving that 32,000 men be employed in the sea service of his Majesty for the next thirteen lunar months.
Sir G. Clerksaid, that he did not rise to make any objection to these Estimates. He must, however, remark, that though the number of seamen was nominally the same, there was practically a great increase in the naval force of the country this year. The Committee would perhaps recollect, that up to February last, the naval department of the country was charged with the care of the revenue in the counties of Kent and Sussex, and that 2,700 men were employed in that service. Since that time all that duty had been transferred from the Navy Department to the Board of Customs, and the right hon. Baronet had, in consequence, held out to them that a saving of 70,000 l. a year would thus be effected. Now if the same number of men were to be voted for the sea-service after this arrangement as was voted for it before, an increase, instead of a diminution, of expense would be caused by the transfer; for while the number of

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men in the Navy would remain nominally the same, there would be an increase of 150,000 l. in the expenses of the Board of Customs. He had no doubt, that the right hon. Baronet opposite was prepared with some reasons for retaining so large a naval force, but he had not thought proper to assign any of them to the House. The right hon. Baronet told them that he intended to exercise the guardships in nautical manœuvres during the summer months, and he (Sir G. Clerk) had informed the right hon. Baronet in turn, that that intention would be facilitated by taking the men for that time from the blockade service. The Lords of the Admiralty had not, however, pursued that course, but had discharged all the men engaged in that service. The consequence was, that they had now a large fleet assembled at Spithead, which they could not send to sea, because it was not sufficiently manned. He thought that before the winter was over the Chancellor of the Exchequer would receive heavy complaints from the British manufacturers, of the injury which they had received from the quantity of goods smuggled into the country, owing to the abolition of this very valuable description of naval force. He would, in conclusion, beg the hon. Baronet to give the House some information concerning the increase of 2,700 which he contended had been made.
Sir James Grahamhoped, that the House would distinguish between the two branches of the question, into which the speech of the hon. Baronet opposite naturally divided itself; he meant the fiscal question, which related to the protection of the revenue, and the naval question, which related to the number of men to be employed in the sea-service of the year. With regard to the fiscal question, he had the authority of the Board of Customs to say, that the revenue would be better protected under the new system than under the old, and that a saving of 70,000 l. a year would be effected to the public by the transfer to which the hon. Baronet had alluded. With regard to the naval question, there was some truth in the objection of the hon. Baronet, that we had parted, by our new course, with a valuable part of our naval force. His (Sir James Graham's) objection, however, to this force was, that it was not that which it pretended to be: it was not a naval force so much as a land force; and a proof of his
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position was to be found in the fact, that when an offer was made, to take every able seaman of the force, after examination, into His Majesty's navy, there were not more than 800 of them which the captains of the fleet would admit, although 2,400 of them were rated as able seamen. He begged leave to inform the committee, in reply to the hon. Baronet's statement, that since he had come into office, he had borne off nearly 1,000 men more than his predecessors. When he came into office, there were 30,967 men rated in the navy; now there were only 30,007 men, since the coast-guard had been paid off. The Britannia, which was a first-rate, and a seventy-four-gun ship, were now on their return from the Mediterranean, and as soon as they arrived at Spithead their crews would be paid off. Thus another reduction would be effected, which, with the 1,000 men already borne off, would make a reduction of at least 2,000 men in the naval force, and would thus bring it almost to the same amount as if the coast-guard were at once dismissed. This was not the course of the late Administration. They had generally in employ a larger number of men than was voted by Parliament, and they paid them by the application of sums voted to other purposes.
Mr. Leadercomplained, that though so much of the money devoted to naval purposes was raised from Ireland, there was but one naval station in that country, and little of this money expended in it for naval purposes. She had 8,000 miles of coast, indented with harbours, and but one naval station, which he understood was about to be removed. The whole expense of Ireland in the Naval Estimates was 1,500 l. When he looked to the enormous sums expended on the Admiralty and on the Navy-office, he could but regard this parsimony as to Ireland to be most mischievous. The coast offered facilities for supplying the people with food, which they would embrace with very little encouragement. But the people were unattended to, and were consequently discontented and disturbed. He knew that the next grant was a million of money for the 20,000 soldiers which were maintained in Ireland. He likewise knew, that since the countries had been united, 93,000,000 l. had been expended on the military service in that country. He wished, however, that the maritime connexion between England and Ireland should be greater than it was at

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present, and he hoped, that Government would take that point into consideration before these Estimates were again submitted to Parliament. Some rational measures of this kind might enable the people of the sea-coast to emerge from their never-ending round of poverty, distress, and famine. He must, as an Irish Gentleman, protest in the strongest language against the two-fold injustice of taking so much from Ireland, and of spending none of the public revenue in promoting its improvement.
Mr. Humebegged to ask his right hon. friend at the head of the Admiralty, whether he was to understand, that when the ships he had spoken of returned from the Mediterranean, the expenses of the navy would be reduced?
Sir James Grahamstated, that by the transfer from the Admiralty to the Customs there would be a nett saving of 70,000 l.; that he had already reduced 1,000 men in the navy, and that in addition, on the return of the Britannia and a seventy-four, their, crews would be paid off; so that on the whole there would be a reduction of about 2,000 men.
Mr. Humeinquired, if the country was to derive any advantage from the 2,400 men transferred from the Admiralty in the reduction of expense. As he was one of those who, after examination, had advocated the propriety of this transfer, he wished to know what the benefit would be.
Vote agreed to, as were several subsequent items.
On the vole for 810,000 l. for timber and materials being put,
Mr. Humethought the sum immense under present circumstances. The right hon. Baronet might be anxious to lay in a good stock, but he feared a great loss must result from having so many perishable stores. He would also take this opportunity of asking, whether it was true that the great force now at Spithead, and which was expressly designed to sail for practice, was now detained there for the purpose of holding a Court Martial? He understood there was a sufficient number of pennants in the harbour for that purpose, without delaying the fleet for a fortnight; and, at all events, the Court Martial was not of such consequence, but that it might be delayed, and not suffer the fine weather to be lost.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that the fleet was not detained for that purpose, but
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that it was not yet manned; and as, per-haps, it might be obliged to remain eight or ten days, it was thought that the Court Martial might be as well held. As to the sum asked for, on coming into office he had consulted with the Comptroller of the Navy, and his opinion was, that with due regard to the public service, it would be necessary to incur this expense.
Mr. Cressett Pelhamrecommended to the House to take into its consideration the declining state of the oak timber of the country. The price was so low that the supply must diminish.
Colonel Sibthorpwas of opinion, that if means were not taken to encourage the growth of oak timber, the English Navy must fall to the ground.
Mr. Humesaid, another question occurred to him, and that was, why there should be any difficulty in manning the fleet now, when there were vast numbers of sailors in every harbour? The truth he believed was, that sailors would go only with certain captains, and this must be the case while these officers retained the power of inflicting arbitrary punishment, without holding a Court Martial. Sailors in ships of war ought to be placed on as good a footing as those in the merchant service. In some ships a lash was not given from year's end to year's end, while in others a week never elapsed without it. He hoped, therefore, his right hon. friend would take care to introduce proper regulations on this point, for if we should come again to a state of hostilities, we should be obliged to have recourse to that un-English and unconstitutional system of pressing, which he looked upon with abhorrence.
Sir James Grahamadmitted, that the question of corporal punishment was one of vast importance, and he agreed with his hon. friend that no more important duty could devolve on the Government than that of making the naval service agreeable. He assured the House that no endeavour had been wanting on his part, or on that of his predecessors, to whom he was most anxious to do justice, in order to effect this object. Indeed, the last step of the last Admiralty Board had produced a very great improvement, by placing the power of punishment in the captains, under certain control. A regulation was made to oblige every captain to send a statement of every punishment, with the evidence of the crime for which it was inflicted, thus forming a kind of

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record of all the circumstances. He had gone one step farther, as every fortnight he had these statements submitted to the inspection of a Board of six persons at the Admiralty. This was an examination, no doubt, after punishment, but it materially increased the weight of the responsibility of the party inflicting punishment, when he knew that his conduct would be inquired into, and all the circumstances duly weighed. Though it might be found expedient to retain in the hands of the Admiralty the power of impressment, he was most ready to admit, that every precaution that could be adopted ought to be had recourse to, in order to prevent the necessity of resorting to that method of raising men for the service. It was a matter of the most serious consideration, whilst endeavouring to ameliorate the condition of the seamen on board the ship, not to effect that object by reducing that power which was in many cases found to be absolutely necessary to be vested in the commander, in order that he might hold the crew in subjection. The system upon which the navy would in future be based, was, to supersede the necessity of impressment by making that branch of the public service lucrative, and he would state what had been done since the present Ministry had been formed towards effecting that object. The Coast Blockade establishment was a service of so desirable a nature that former Ministries had always looked upon it as a source of patronage, and had conferred on landsmen those situations that of strict right belonged to naval officers and seamen. This patronage had hitherto been vested in the Board of Treasury, by which it had been used for civil purposes. The noble Lord now at the head of that Board had, however, considered that the public service would be much improved if he transferred this extensive power of conferring reward, on the Board of Admiralty, and he had accordingly done so on this condition, that as soon as ships came into port and were paid off, the captains of those ships should be empowered to certify to the Board the number of men to be discharged from the service, who were willing to serve in that of the Coast Blockade, where the pay was much higher than that of the Navy. In order to qualify the men for this branch of service, it was necessary that they should be enrolled on the ship's books as able seamen, having served afloat
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for the space of three years at the least, and those who were considered as the best entitled to this reward were to be signalised as such by the captain. It had also been settled, with the consent of the Board of Customs, that opportunities should be afforded them of rising in the preventive service, by rendering the seamen eligible to the offices of tide-waiters, and other situations of trust in the Customs department, whereby it would be seen that there was the strongest possible inducement for men, not only to enter the naval service, but also to qualify themselves by good conduct for their certificate, which opened such prospects to them.
Sir George Clerkheard the Statement just concluded by the right hon. Baronet with the greatest pleasure, and he was sure that all those to whom the welfare of the Navy, that important branch of the public service was dear, would be equally gratified by it. He wished to state in reply to the hon. member for Middlesex, that the reason why the fleet could not get men was, not an unwillingness to enter his Majesty's service, but a fear, as the guardships were fully manned, that, if they entered for the cruise, they might be discharged in the autumn, and would then be out of employment. The hon. Member would not like to vote money for keeping these men through the winter, and if he recommended keeping them, he must depart, in favour of his friend now in office, from his usual principles of economy. He must also express the undivided satisfaction with which he had listened to the intimation which had been given by the right hon. Baronet that the Government had determined not to deprive itself of the power of impressment; an acknowledgment, though a tacit one, of the immense importance of this power in cases of Urgent necessity.
Mr. Humeobserved, with reference to the remark of the hon. Baronet, that in assenting to the vote of Supply for the support and expense of training 20,000 seamen, he did so under a full impression that this number of men was to be kept up the whole year, and was not to be diminished after a month or two. He confessed, that he could not see the policy of incurring the expense of training men for the service, and after they had learned their duties as seamen at the cost of the public, to discharge them. He repeated his hope, therefore, that these men were to be kept on for the whole of the year.
Sir James Grahamremarked, that the observation which had fallen from the hon. Baronet, relative to the difficulty of manning the fleet, was perfectly correct, for it was the supposition on the part of the seamen that the Government did not intend to keep up the present number of seamen, which led to their unwillingness to enter. The hon. member for Middlesex was right when he characterised the act of incurring all the expense of training the men, and afterwards of dismissing them, as one of folly, and he might be assured that no such error would be committed by the present Board of Admiralty.
Mr. Crokerbegged to say a few words on the subject of the present vote, lest his silence should he misinterpreted; and first he must observe, that he entirely disagreed with the right hon. Baronet and the rest of his colleagues, as to the principle upon which they had framed the Navy Estimates, wherein they differed from those of former years. It was, in his opinion, perfectly impossible to have a more complex or a worse system than that which the right hon. Baronet had suggested to the House, and which was substituted for one, the arrangement of which was clear, concise, and accurate. There was also a circumstance to be explained, which, though trivial, was yet of great importance, on account of the principle which it involved. An order had been lately promulgated by the Board of Admiralty, stating that naval officers of a certain class, who had always been admitted to pay their respects to their Sovereign at Court, were thenceforward to be prohibited from participating in that honour. It was certainly not his wish nor his intention to cavil at any order which his Majesty might be pleased to issue with respect to his Court; but what he wished chiefly to impress upon the House at this moment was, the importance of this order as affecting the condition of the half-pay department. There was, he would assert, nothing more deserving of serious consideration, than any attempt to subject officers on half-pay to military command; and looking at the subject in this light, he could not but say, that in his opinion the Secretary of the Admiralty had no right whatever to issue the order in question. He trusted to hear some satisfactory explanation of this circumstance from the right hon. Baronet opposite.
Sir James Grahamregretted the absence of the right hon. Gentleman on the former discussion, as they had been thus deprived of the benefit of his known talents and experience, but he thought, nevertheless, that the arrangement proposed by Ministers would be found more conducive to the systematic clearness of detail than that which he would have recommended. At the same time he begged the House and the right hon. Member opposite to recollect, that when he had propounded the system to them, he acknowledged that there was an appearance of intricacy and confusion which would disappear in the succeeding years, and though the right hon. Member had warned him of the possibility which existed that such confusion would arise and continue, he could not but hope, as, indeed, he firmly trusted would be the case, that the Navy accounts would become not only clear, but completely intelligible to the House and the country. With respect to what the right hon. Member had urged on the minor topic of his speech, he would only reply to the remark, that the order of the Board of Admiralty was a military order, that the order itself extended only to those officers who are on full pay, and who, consequently, were under the control of the Board. The right hon. Member was perfectly correct, when he said, that he denied the authority of the Board over half-pay officers; but he must be allowed to remind him that the half-pay officers of the Navy were left at liberty to pay what attention they liked to the order.
Mr. Crokerasked, did the right hon. Baronet mean to say that, by the order of the Board of Admiralty, it was meant that those officers who were on full pay, and who, from that circumstance, might be argued as being more deserving, were selected as the properest persons to be forbidden to pay their respects at Court, whilst the officers on half-pay, who must be deemed less worthy, were suffered to retain that privilege? Was it not notorious that by the regulations of the service no officer on full pay could attend the levee without obtaining that leave of absence which would enable him to go? And was it not obvious that the order in question had been intended to restrain the half-pay officers from going to the levee, by exerting a power which the Board of Admiralty was not possessed of? Besides, the order to the full-pay officers ought to have been

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communicated to them, through the medium of their commanding officer, in conformity to established and unvaried practice, and the necessary notices to the half-pay officers ought to have been issued to them in the Navy List, as was usually the case.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that if this order had arisen from error (and he by no means admitted that that was the case), it was at all events only an error in point of form; for the right hon. Gentleman had not even impugned the substance of the order. If the right hon. Gentleman wished to raise the question of its propriety, he (Sir James Graham) would be quite prepared to meet him on it.
Mr. Crokersaid, that if that was the only explanation he could obtain, he should be disposed to make a distinct motion on the subject. He was prepared to deny altogether the power of the Admiralty to make any such order.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that in that case, he should reserve himself for the distinct motion of the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Crokersaid, that that reservation would not serve the right hon. Baronet, Would he renew his statement that it was a question of doubt whether the Admiralty had the authority which it had exercised?
Vote agreed to.
On the Motion "That 24,040 l. be granted to his Majesty for the hire of packets for 1831,"
Mr. Crokerasked for an explanation of a notice recently issued, that a considerable tonnage of transports was required, The circumstance, he believed, had occasioned some alarm amongst certain members of the commercial body, and he asked for the explanation that the country might know what was going on.
Sir James Grahamreplied, that there was no cause whatever for any alarm, as the tonnage required was only for the quarantine service, and would not produce any consequence at all prejudicial to the mercantile interest.
Sir G. Clerkinquired whether the goods on board vessels under quarantine were to be landed on the island of Sheppy, as reported. That island was very unhealthy even at present, and the probability of such a dangerous proceeding had already given the inhabitants some natural uneasiness.
Sir James Grahamcould give no positive pledge upon the subject, but added
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that Government was in constant communication with the Board of Health, and that they would observe every precaution which skill or prudence could suggest as a preservative from infection.
Sir B. Martinsaid, that landing goods would be the last expedient, but if the ships were found insufficient, recourse must be had to Sheerness dock-yard, or some other place of the same sort.
Vote agreed to.
"88,500 l. to defray the expense of passing convicts to New South Wales for 1831," was the next vote proposed.
Mr. Humehoped, that Government contemplated some arrangement which would diminish the expense of transporting convicts. He must also take that opportunity of animadverting on the extravagance of supporting a squadron on the coast of Africa for the purpose of putting down the slave trade, when it was notorious that at no former period had its operation been more pernicious than at this very moment. In the Committee of Inquiry into our establishments on the western coast of Africa, it came out, that there were three times more slaves now carried from that quarter of the world than there used to be before we attempted to put the trade down; our exertions having had the effect of making the ships more crowded, so that instead of vessels of 200 or 300 tons, carrying only 200 or 300 slaves, they carried 700, and sloops of sixty or seventy tons, carried 300 wretched human beings. One gentleman stated, that he had been told by a slave-trader, that he calculated upon making the run to the Brazils in about three weeks, and if he got one-third of his miserable cargo across alive, he was well satisfied. The country had paid three or four millions to produce this state of things. Plans had been laid down for sending steam-boats up the rivers, and preventing the embarkation of the slaves, and certainly, if that could be accomplished, much suffering might be spared. If a Committee were appointed to inquire into the subject, such scenes of horror would be laid before it, that no humane man could rest content till the system was altered. It should be remembered, too, that one consequence of the course now pursued was, to ruin our West-Indian interest. He objected to our maintaining a squadron on the coast of Africa, which cost 100,000 l. or 120,000 l. a year, with no other effect than that of increasing the

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miseries of the negroes. It was evident that this squadron was mischievous, and he should recommend the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the present state of the slave-trade.
Colonel Sibthorpconsidered the expense for transporting convicts unwarrantably great, looking at the slender financial resources of the country, and he should readily agree to any vote that would lessen it.
Mr. Crokerobserved, that the efficiency of our squadron on the coast of Africa was in itself a cause of cruelty to the slaves, inasmuch as difficulties being thrown in the way of the contraband trade, those who carried it on did so with less regard to the comfortable conveyance of the slaves than formerly. He was satisfied, that unless all the maritime Powers were to unite for the suppression of the slave-trade, and allow a right of mutual search, that it would be infinitely better for the interests of humanity were we to diminish or even to withdraw our interference.
Sir J. Grahamwas not disposed to differ from the hon. member for Middlesex, nor from the right hon. Gentleman, in the opinions which they had expressed on this subject. He admitted that the expense of the establishment for the suppression of the slave-trade was enormous, and, still worse, unavailing; for, so far from the trade being checked, he believed it was increasing. He concurred with the right hon. Gentleman in saying, that without a mutual right of search, every effort to suppress the slave-trade must be unsuccessful. The trade was chiefly carried on under the flag of France: negotiations were now pending with that Power on the subject, and he trusted that she would throw no difficulty in the way of the adoption of such a plan as might tend to the effectual suppression of the slave-trade.
Vote agreed to.
On the vote of "63,363 l. for the Salaries of Officers belonging to the Victualling-yards," &c.,
Mr. Crokerobserved, that a report was in circulation of the existence of cholera in the west of Ireland; he mentioned it for the purpose of giving the right hon. Baronet an opportunity of contradicting it.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, he believed the rumour to be entirely unfounded. In some parts of the distressed districts fever had shown itself; but every thing had been done to alleviate the sufferings of the poor
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by Government, and by private exertions, and he was happy to understand that distress, and its concomitant, fever, were yielding before the means resorted to.
Vote agreed to.
On the vote of "86,457 l. for new works in the Victualling Department,"
Mr. Humeasked, whether the present Government intended to resort to a proceeding which had been censured in the late Government? He referred to the appropriation of sums of money to purposes other than those for which they had been voted.
Sir.J. Grahamsaid, Ministers would in all cases endeavour carefully to avoid such a course; but if they should be compelled to make the slightest deviation into it, they would take the earliest opportunity to inform Parliament of the proceeding.
Vote agreed to.
On the vote of "157,576 l. for Half-pay and Pensions of Medical Officers," &c,
Mr. Humewas satisfied that the time was come for putting a stop to promotions in the navy. For a year, at least, we ought not to promote a single naval officer, except under peculiar circumstances.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, if the plan of one promotion in three vacancies had been adopted at the close of the war, it would have been productive of good effects. Government would strictly adhere to that plan, but it must be admitted, that it was necessary not to put a stop to promotion altogether. The springs of emulation would, in that case, be destroyed, and the navy be stricken as with a palsy. The average age of Post Captains was fifty-nine, and if no promotion were to take place, the fleet would soon be left without efficient senior officers. He admitted the propriety of his hon. friend watching promotions, but to put a stop to them altogether would ruin the navy.
Mr. Crokerobserved, that the great number of officers now in the navy was the result of a protracted war, and twenty years' unparalleled naval exertion. If the system of one promotion in three vacancies bad any fault, it was on the side of economy, and sure he was, that if we fixed the scale of promotion within narrower limits, the day would come when England would have to rue such short-sighted economy. Promotion was necessary to keep up a proper spirit of emulation in the service.
Mr. Humebelieved, the country would

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yet rue the system which the Government with which the right hon. Gentleman had been connected had pursued. He did not complain that those officers, who had served a proper time during the war, should be promoted; there was, perhaps, justice in making 1,400 Midshipmen Lieutenants; but promotion had gone on (luring sixteen years of peace, in proportion to the numbers employed, as much as during the war. In war, promotion was rapid; it was the soldier's harvest; but many of those promoted since the peace, had not served in the war, but had run over the heads of older officers, who were seamen before they were born. This was, indeed, a system the country would rue; and if he found that it was persevered in, he should make some distinct motion on the subject.
Remaining Votes agreed to.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
Sir Henry Parnellthen brought forward the Army Estimates. As they were the same, with one exception, as the House had passed the last Session, he should not make any statement concerning them. With respect to that exception, the vote for the Volunteer and Yeomanry Corps, which was then postponed, he should be ready to give any explanation required.
After a few words from Sir Henry Hardinge, expressing a determination to offer no opposition to the votes, but a wish to obtain some information concerning the number of officers on half-pay, which he considered essential to the public service, the number of 88,496 men were voted for the service of the year.
Several items were agreed to without remark. On the vote for the Military Asylum,
Captain Bolderowished for further time to consider the Estimates. He had received them only that morning, at eleven o'clock, and had not had time to make himself master of them. He begged for time [no, no!].
Lord Althorpobserved, that the present Estimates were all discussed last Session, and in passing them the House would only follow the precedent of 1807. At that time the Estimates had been voted previous to the dissolution, and the same estimates were afterwards brought forward.
Mr. R. Gordonobserved, there was also a similar precedent in 1804. Nevertheless, he thought the new Members might with propriety complain.
Lord Althorpobserved, that there were new Members in both the Parliaments of 1804 and 1807.
Vote agreed to.

IRISH YEOMANRY.
On the Motion for 189,803 l. 19 s. for defraying the charge of the Yeomanry and Volunteer Corps for Great Britain and Ireland,
Mr. O'Connellobserved, that the present Government had involved itself in an error in reviving the Yeomanry Corps in Ireland. The Yeomanry was kept on foot for party purposes. After the peace they were no longer necessary; but the distribution that was made of them showed that the purposes for which they were kept up were those of party. Thus, in the small county of Fermanagh, with only a population of 130,000, there were 2,000 Yeomanry; while in all Munster, with a population of 1,900,000, there was only about an equal number, or 2,000. He had, on a former occasion, objected to the continuance of this force, and had received, not a pledge indeed, but an understanding from the Government, that it should be gradually discontinued. If the Administration had not been changed, that understanding would, he believed, have been adhered to; but the new Government thought that it would be a good force, he supposed, to put down a popular cause; and that it would strengthen the Government. That was a great mistake. Never was there a greater mistake, for it was invariably found, that where a Yeomanry force was kept up, it was also necessary to keep up a considerable force of the King's regular troops, to keep down the effects of that excitement which the Yeomanry Corps never failed to produce. If it was necessary to have a military force in any particular district, let it be of the regular troops, for they did their duty, and nothing more.—Indeed it was a matter of surprise that men of the rank in life of the private soldier should be found to conduct themselves with so much prudence, discretion, and forbearance, as the regular troops were found to do in Ireland, often under the most trying circumstances. This praise belonged exclusively to the regular troops, from the highest to the lowest rank. This was the general feeling in Ireland with respect to them; but a feeling the very reverse prevailed with respect to the Yeomanry force. Another objectionable force kept up in Ireland,

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was that of the Police—a force armed with deadly weapons, which they were reckless in using on very slight occasions. It appeared from Returns which he had had laid on the Table, that four times more men fell by the hand of the police than by the hand of the executioner. Thus four times more men were shot to punish riots, than to punish all other crimes. The land was red with blood spilled by the police. Let them look to the case of Castle Pollard; there ten men, women, and children were slaughtered, because, as the police said, they were assailed by stones on going to their barrack; but it was stated by the nephew of the Earl of Fingal, Mr. Dease, that the police were animated by party feeling. To this Police the Yeomanry were only a supplementary force. He supposed that one reason for keeping up the Yeomanry was, that it was considered that this force was opposed to the Repeal of the Union; which was not necessarily the case. The consequence was now evident. That at Newtown-Barry their want of discipline had caused the shedding of blood, there could be no doubt. He had seen the letter of a Magistrate who had sat on the investigation, which placed it beyond a doubt, that among this body there was a readiness to shed blood, and a want of discipline. On this ground, therefore, he contended, that the Yeomanry was the most objectionable force that could possibly he kept up, and the Government ought on no account to encourage the formation of Yeomanry corps. For proof of the party spirit of the Yeomanry, and their readiness to shed blood, he need not go beyond the fact, that for many years there, a 1st or a 12th of July had not passed without the loss of two or three lives by their hands. He contended, that if the most malicious ingenuity were to exert itself to devise measures to keep Ireland in a state of excitement, of dissatisfaction, and discontent, it could not devise more effectual means than that of keeping up this kind of force. Me was far from imputing such an intention to the present Government, but it was ignorant of the real nature of this force and of its effects in keeping up agitation. Ireland had many grievances to complain of, but nothing could so much provoke irritation as keeping up the Yeomanry corps, and he would divide against this vote. Three out of four of the districts of Ireland were unanimous against it. He
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called on the Irish Members to remember that they were bound to their constituency to stand by him in resisting this vote. There was not one Member who had a liberal constituency who was not pledged to resist it. The people recollected that force as connected with the civil war which had been superinduced to extinguish the Irish Legislature. Some efforts, he knew, had been made by the Lord Lieutenant to form these corps both of Catholics and Protestants, but they had not succeeded. The feelings of the country were against these corps, and respectable men would not join them. One party, then, was armed against the other—the armed party grew insolent—insolence led to scuffles, and scuffles ended in death. If the Government wanted to increase the force—friend as he was of economy, he would readily assent to any increase the Government might think necessary of the King's troops. He could not tell the House with what disgust and abhorrence, exciting to resistance, the Yeomanry corps were held in by the people of Ireland. He was aware that attempts had been made by the Irish Government to infuse a better spirit into those corps, and to cause a mixture of all parties to enter into them, but he also knew with what little success; and the right hon. Baronet, (Sir H. Parnell), who knew Ireland well, could bear him out in the statement, that throughout Ireland, nineteen out of twenty of those corps were composed of men of the most violent party feelings, and be- longing to that party which was most obnoxious to the general feeling of the country. It was dangerous to put arms into the hands of such men. He was a friend to economy, but it was no economy to keep up such a corps. It was a mistake to suppose, that the Yeomanry in Ireland was composed of men of the middle classes, and in comparatively easy circumstances. The privates for the greater part, and the officers, for the most part, were men, to whom full permanent duty and full pay were an object.—[Two or three hon. Members here said "No, no."] He did not speak of the Yeomanry in that part of Ireland (the North) to which the three hon. Members belonged; he spoke of the provinces of Munster, Leinster, and Connaught, which he presumed he knew much better than the hon. Members who cried out "No;" and he repeated, that to corps so composed, the tranquillity of

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the country could not be so much an object as any state of things which could give them employment. In his own county, a captain of Yeomanry had lately taken the benefit of the Insolvent Act, yet he had still his company. Would not the pay be an object to such a man? Such men would be on the look out for permanent duty, or, as the sailors would say, "would look out for squalls." By the discontent of the country they would get full pay—by its quietness they would get nothing, but go on till some of them got white-washed again. Having these strong objections to this force, he would now move as an amendment, that the vote be reduced by the sum of 19,290 l., which was the sum voted for the Irish Yeomanry force. He would not touch the English force, as he was not acquainted with it. He would leave that to the English Members themselves. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving, that instead of 189,803 l., 170,512 l. be substituted.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that the hon. and learned Gentleman had entered more generally into the state of Ireland than was called for by the vote, which was usually passed on such occasions, for the Yeomanry force. In one respect he had only done justice to the Government of Ireland, in stating, that it had done every thing in its power to prevent the Yeomanry force from becoming a party force. If it had not succeeded to the extent it could wish, it was not the fault of the Government; but even that furnished no argument against the employment of that force under the circumstances which had induced the Government to call it out. He (Mr. Stanley) did not know with what taste or judgment the hon. and learned Gentleman had called upon the Members for places where, as he said, free election existed, to support him on this occasion, seeing that he himself confessed that he was unacquainted with the constitution of the Yeomanry in that fourth province of Ireland, in which five-sixths of this force was employed. It was true, that party feeling did exist amongst some of the corps, but Government could not prevent that, though it had done every thing in its power to neutralize it. In one remark of the hon. and learned Gentleman he fully concurred—that which related to the conduct of the King's troops, which, under every circumstance, was most exemplary,
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and indeed beyond all praise. From the General to the Private the conduct of the troops employed in the disturbed districts of Clare and the county Galway was under circumstances the most painful—that of repressing disturbance by the shedding of blood—marked by the greatest forbearance, and by every trait which must be approved by the lovers of order. But, concurring with the hon. and learned Gentleman in this, as every man must do, he could not agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman, that it would be expedient to provide such an army for Ireland as would meet all exigencies, without having recourse to some subsidiary force. He could not approve of that want of delicacy—he had almost said of the want of feeling of honesty—in the hon. and learned Gentleman, which made him bring before the House, and expose to the passions of the House— not to their judgment—two unfortunate affairs which the Police and the Yeomanry had had with the multitude. In one case there were twenty-one persons awaiting a verdict that might consign them to death. In the other, the Coroner's Inquest was yet sitting on the bodies. He had seen an account in one of the newspapers—he could not vouch for its accuracy—that a jury of six Catholics and six Protestants had brought in a verdict of justifiable homicide. [Mr. O'Connell intimated, that this could not be correct: no verdict had been given.] Well, even under that supposition, there was the more reason for not alluding, in a manner calculated to excite the popular prejudices, to a case which was yet to come before the tribunals of the country. He regretted that the hon. Gentleman had mixed up the Castle Pollard case on this occasion so as to throw odium on the two forces—the Police and the Yeomanry employed there. With respect to the Police force in Ireland, he would say, that a more patient or more temperate body of men could not be found, and it was most unfair to mix them up on this occasion with all the tumults of Ireland, so as to expose them to the passions of the people. The hon. Member said, that the Yeomen were supplementary to the Police in the Newtown barry business; but the fact was, the two bodies had found it necessary to unite to resist the organized attack of persons whose worst passions had been excited by other causes. When the hon. and learned Gentleman talked of calling out the

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Yeomanry, let him (Mr. Stanley) remind him of the condition of Ireland when they were called out in the last winter; and even if the Yeomanry had a larger share of party feeling, he would ask, whether there was any other way of saving Ireland at the time, without an immense and inconvenient addition to the regular military force? If the Government had not called out that body which were organized and ready to act—a body of men who were known to be loyal and devoted to the Constitution,—he did not say that there were not loyal men of all parties—but looking at the state of Ireland at that time, at the excitement created, and the attempt made to keep it up, he would assert, that if Government had not availed itself of the assistance of a large body of men ready and willing to give their services, and on whom Government could rely for the preservation of peace, it would have been wanting in its duty to its country, and its God; and he would contend, that the calling out of the Yeomanry on that occasion had prevented the greatest mischiefs. He knew it was difficult for Government to have such a force without party feeling; but knowing also how soon advantage was taken of a word or an act on either side, the Government saw that the best way was to steer clear of both parties—not to be led away by a claim of exclusive loyalty on one hand, or be induced by a cry to put down the whole Protestant population for the acts of a few of their body. He contended, then, looking at the circumstances under which the Yeomanry were called out last Christmas, and as that was a force on which the Government might rely for its general disposition to uphold the laws, whatever might be said of its discretion, it would be most injudicious and unwise economy to get rid of them now, by withdrawing the usual vote. He was, therefore, ready to take the sense of the Committee on the vote.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he had no wish to embarrass the Government, and if an expectation were held out that this force would not be continued after a time, he would withdraw his amendment. The hon. and learned Gentleman repeated his former objections, that the Yeomanry were a source of weakness and not of strength to the Government, and on that ground he opposed them.
Lord Althorpadmitted, that the question
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was one of great difficulty, as he knew no subject connected with the state of Ireland which had excited more discussion. At the same time, after the services which the Yeomanry had rendered when called out last Christmas, when Ireland was in a condition which called for the aid of such a force, he did not see how the usual vote could now be refused. The hon. Gentleman had called for a pledge to have the force given up. [Mr. O'Connell said, than "an expectation held out was all he required."] He considered that on the part of a Government very like a pledge, and he was not disposed to give it, though he saw no probability of the force being increased. The use of such a force was, he admitted, only a choice of evils; but it was an alternative forced on Government by the circumstances of the country. Of the police in Ireland it was in vain for the hon. and learned Member to speak, as not rendered necessary by the condition of the country; and the same condition rendered the assistance of the Yeomanry almost indispensable in keeping the peace. It was impossible, as things now stood, that we could keep a sufficient body of the King's troops in Ireland to effect all these objects; and, however much he might be disposed to admit the validity of the objections to the continuance of a Yeomanry force, he could not, after what had now been said, give any such pledge as that demanded, nor consent immediately, after having called on the Yeomanry for that assistance which was given so promptly and seasonably, to take that opportunity to put them down.
Mr. Stricklandhoped the hon. and learned Gentleman would not persevere. He was sorry to hear the appeal made to the Irish Gentlemen, because he would not give way to any Irish Gentleman in regret for the unfortunate events which had occurred in that country. The present Government seemed, however, to be disposed to rule Ireland with so much mildness, and to apply such lenient measures for the purpose of suppressing discontent, and putting an end to the bitterness of party spirit, that he, for one, could not at present consent to embarrass their movements, by assenting to the hon. Member's Motion. At any future period he would gladly vote for the reduction of the Yeomanry; but at this moment, he hoped the hon. Member would not persevere in his Motion.
Mr. O'Connellexpressed his assent to this recommendation; but he wished to know if any increase of the Yeomanry in Ireland was in contemplation; or if any other vote than the present would be proposed for Ireland?
Mr. Stanleyhad no hesitation in saying, that there was not any intention to increase the number of the Yeomanry of Ireland. As to any further sums of money being required, he supposed the hon. Member referred to a vote which was applied to the clothing of the Yeomanry. He could not pledge himself with certainty that no further sum would be required for that purpose during the year. He believed not, however; and certainly no other would be applied for at present.
Colonel Percevaldefended the conduct of the Yeomanry of Ireland, who were, in his opinion, entitled to the praise of having preserved the peace of the kingdom. On a late occasion, the mere threat of calling them out into active service, had the effect of suppressing the spirit of disaffection which prevailed throughout that country. The hon. member for Kerry had appealed to the Irish Members on the present occasion, and warned them, that if they did not support him, their constituents would remember it. He regretted much, that the hon. Member had recourse to an expedient of that kind; and he was confident, if the respectable and thinking portion of the constituency of Ireland were left to themselves, that no Irish Member would have reason to regret having honestly spoken his opinion, and conscientiously given his vote on the questions which were agitated in that House.
Colonel Evansdid not approve of the Yeomanry as a military force, yet thought that Ireland was not in a condition to have them altogether and suddenly suppressed. He was of opinion, however, that it would be much more economical to employ the regular army in preserving the peace of that country, and to diminish the Yeomanry corps as speedily and as extensively as they could, without giving offence.
Mr. Connollydefended the conduct of the Yeomanry and Police, and observed, that in all the experience he had of their conduct, and it was considerable, they had acted with the greatest temperance and discretion. In Dublin, during a period of extraordinary excitement, the Yeomanry had preserved the peace without any additional force, and he knew with certainty,
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that it and the police had been very efficient in maintaining obedience to the laws. The country must have regular troops in considerable numbers for the preservation of peace, if they had no police or Yeomanry; and, in his opinion, the latter force was much more efficient for that purpose.
Mr. Anthony Lefroyreminded the House, that there were only two cases within a very long period in which there could be founded the slightest charge against the conduct of the Yeomanry. These were the affairs of Castlepollard and New-townbarry; and he must say, that he agreed with the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, in thinking that it was very bad taste on the part of the hon. member for Kerry to allude to them as he had done on the present occasion, when the acts attributed to the police and Yeomanry were not authenticated by evidence before any regular tribunal.
An Hon. Membersaid, there were, he understood, 23,000 Yeomanry in the north of Ireland, and 2,000 in Munster. Now he should be glad to know where they were to find regular troops to supply their place if the Yeomanry were disbanded?
Mr. O'Counellsaid, the whole Yeomanry force was 21,000, and he could not comprehend how there were 23,000 in the north of Ireland alone. He would not, however, enter into the subject further, and after the observations which had fallen from the hon. member for Yorkshire, he would withdraw his amendment.
An Hon. Memberreplied, that the Irish Yeomanry amounted to 28,000.
Mr. Humesaid, they had hitherto been on the subject of the Irish Yeomanry: he now wished to draw their attention to the English. What need was there in this country for a large Yeomanry force kept up at a great expense? How much better would it not be to have a Burgher Guard? He repeated it—a Burgher Guard that would serve without pay, instead of Yeomanry corps which would cost the country 170,000 l. for their pay and expenses. [No.] He said, yes. There it was on the Estimates, and let any one who understood figures look at it, and say no if they could. He thought, that it would be much better even to employ the regular army to preserve the peace of the country. They had much more temper and firmness, and he did not see Why that army had been increased unless it was to

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employ them in such service. He would not embarrass the Government by opposing the vote, but he hoped it would be the last required for the same purpose.
The Marquis of Chandossaid, he could not allow the vote to pass without protesting against the language used by the hon. Member respecting the Yeomanry of England. He thought that they were the most useful, as well as the most constitutional force, the Government could employ, and he believed, that but for their exertions in the course of the last autumn, the country would not have been in that state of peace and prosperity in which it was at present. He had the honour to command a troop of Yeomanry in his own county. He could bear testimony to their efficiency in all cases where their services were required, and he knew they received no remuneration whatever for their services.
Mr. Humecould only say, in reply to the noble Marquis, that when he last moved for a return of the sum expended on Yeomanry corps, he found that the noble Marquis and his troop had a part of it.
Mr. Huntdiffered from the noble Marquis as to the efficiency of the Yeomanry. On a recent occasion, in Wales, it was well known that one-half of a troop which came to put down a riot, was disarmed by the mob, and that the other half ran away. He said this without meaning any personal offence. He knew none of the officers; but there was no doubt that the corps had been of no service there, and he believed they would, from other reasons, be of no service elsewhere. Did the Government know, that in the counties of Kent and Sussex the labourers had threatened, if the Irish were permitted as usual to come and take the bread out of their mouths, that they would set fire to the corn-fields, and to the hops, as well as the hay? He stated what was well known, and had been published in the newspapers. Now what would the employers of these labourers do, if they were called on to act as Yeomanry? Why their property would be immediately marked for destruction, if they ventured to act against the mob. He repeated, therefore, that as a force to preserve the peace, the Yeomanry was useless. He knew, too, that a great number of the members of the Yeomanry corps were in the habit of getting butcher boys and bakers, and anybody, to ride their horses as yeomen,
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in order to save the horse-tax for the horses they employed in their business. He knew a surgeon at Taunton, who was pointed out to him as having employed two butchers' boys to ride his horses in a Yeomanry corps, in order that he might save the horse-tax. He stated nothing but what he could prove. He knew something of Yeomanry corps of old. He had been present when whole troops ran away. This was during the war, and he repeated, he thought they were the worst kind of force that could be employed to preserve the peace of the country.
Lord Althorphad no connection with any Volunteer or Yeomanry corps, but he had seen a good deal of them in the course of his life, and he must say, he believed the description given of them by the member for Preston to be incorrect. In the late riots in Wiltshire, it was well known, and acknowledged by all, that the Yeomanry had rendered the greatest service in suppressing disturbances, and that to them the country was indebted for the speedy establishment of tranquillity. The Yeomanry corps, were, he was sure, chiefly composed of substantial farmers. The hon. Gentleman was also in error when he stated that incendiarism still continued; but of this, he (Lord Althorp) was sure, that should a recurrence of the disturbances of last autumn take place, the same valuable services might be expected from the Yeomanry as they performed last year.
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, it would be a curious thing to look into the debates on every Estimate for the last fifty years, and to observe how much opinions had changed. At that time, patriots as good as the member for Middlesex, or the member for! Preston, thought that the only constitutional force was a Yeomanry or Militia, and now, it would appear, they were all for the employment of a standing army.
Mr. Huntread a paragraph from a Sunday paper, in which the writer stated, that he had seen a gentleman from the neighbourhood of Sittingbourne, in Kent, who assured him that the farmers were under great apprehension of the renewal of the burnings of last year. With respect to the Yeomanry, he was really at a loss to understand on what ground they were stated to be so admirable a force as some hon. Gentlemen seemed to consider them. He knew of no feats of valour performed, by the Yeomanry. Not a trigger had

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been pulled against them. [coughing.] He was sent there by the people, and had as much right to speak there as any of the hon. Members who were troubled with so much huskiness. He thought they would do themselves more credit, as Members of Parliament and Gentlemen, if they abstained from vulgar noise. [loud coughing.] It would much better become any hon. Member to try to answer him than to endeavour to put him down in that manner.
Mr. Trevorsaid, that the hon. member for Preston had made out a case for the embodying of the Yeomanry, by stating that the labourers were threatening to destroy the property of their employers. The Yeomanry corps were a most efficient force, and were formed of persons who had a stake in the country, and not of apprentices and butcher-boys, as the hon. Member insinuated. He thought that the Yeomanry had been unjustly libelled by the hon. members for Preston and Middlesex.
Mr. Humewished to know how he had libelled the Yeomanry?
Mr. Alderman Thompsonsaid, that although he certainly was unable to bear testimony to the good conduct of the men belonging to the Glamorganshire Yeomanry, their officers had shown the greatest zeal and courage. He attributed the misconduct of the privates to their being the relations and friends of those against whom they were called upon to act. At the same time, some allowance ought to be made for them on account of their being called out to exercise only eight days in the year. There was, however, now a proof that they were not to be relied on like disciplined troops, and he therefore certainly was of opinion, that it would be better to spend the money which it was proposed to vote for the Yeomanry on a regular force.
Mr. George Lambcould not but believe that the Yeomanry must be the best description of force to defend their own property and firesides. He agreed that the specimen of the Yeomanry to which the hon. Alderman had adverted was not a lucky one; but he must protest against condemning the general character of the Yeomanry corps, in consequence of a single exception. There were many instances of their good conduct; and especially last autumn, in Wiltshire and Dorsetshire. He should have great confidence in the
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English Yeomanry, if any necessity were to arise for their exertions.
Mr. Pringleeulogised the character and conduct of the Yeomanry in Scotland, especially in the year 1820, when the peace of that country, which was nearly in a state of insurrection, was restored almost by the Yeomanry alone. He thought the disembodying of the Yeomanry was a most unwise measure on the part of the Ministers by whom it was adopted.
Mr. Spring Ricedefended the conduct of the Ministry by whom the disembodying of the Yeomanry had been carried into effect. There had been no intention to show the slightest disrespect, to that description of force; it was only felt that at that period the public service could dispense with it. The circumstances of the present time were very different.
Sir M. W. Ridleyreprobated the unjustifiable language used by some hon. Members with reference to the Yeomanry of England. It was a force admirably calculated to repress the tumults excited by the bad advice of those who had too much the ear of the people. To his knowledge, the whole country was highly indebted to the Yeomanry of the North of England for their recent efforts in maintaining public tranquillity. During six weeks that the Northumberland Yeomanry had been under arms, not a single instance had occurred of want of discipline, or of misconduct. The reports of the officers who had been appointed to inspect the various Yeomanry corps, afforded abundant proof of their efficiency and value.
Mr. Edward Petreadded his testimony to that of the hon. Baronet in favour of the conduct of the Yeomanry of Yorkshire.
Mr. Huntsaid, he supposed the hon. Baronet meant to give him a lecture, when he talked of advice that had been given to the people. The hon. Baronet would have been more consistent if he had stated what that advice was. He (Mr. Hunt) had never given any advice to the people which he was not prepared to justify, either there or anywhere else.
The Amendment withdrawn, and original Resolution agreed to.
On the Resolution for granting 697,800 l. for Half-pay and Military Allowances for retired officers,
Sir Henry Hardingeexpressed his hope, that before the Appropriation Act was brought forward, the case of the Half-pay officers would be taken into consideration,

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with a view to some amelioration of their condition. The Committee of 1828 had recommended the employment of the half-pay officers in civil occupations. He trusted this recommendation would be attended to. He knew many officers too much crippled by service for military duty, but quite competent to the discharge of a civil office. He hoped the right hon. Baronet would bring forward some plan having this object in view; if not, he would do so himself.
Mr. Humethought, that military men, after long service, became very incompetent for civil situations. Sinecures they might be competent to hold, and salaries they could receive as well as any body in the country; but to the duties of civil offices he was persuaded they were not equal. He wished to know what was the rule with respect to promotions in the army, and how the vacancies were filled up, whether from the half-pay or not?
Sir H. Parnellsaid, there was no fixed rule on the subject.
Sir Henry Hardingeobserved, that it would be difficult to fix a rule upon that subject, as the casualties of foreign service would put an end to all arrangements of that sort, and much injustice would often arise from any inflexible rule to fill up all vacancies from the half-pay list alone.
Colonel Evansthought, that half-pay officers were not as much attended to as they might be, though he did not mean to say they could always be fixed upon to fill up vacancies.
Vote agreed to.
On the motion for a grant of 1,335,986 l. for Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals,
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, that he wished to call the attention of the right hon. Baronet opposite to a matter of some importance. He understood, that a great number of pensioners had made a commutation of their pensions to become colonial settlers, and that under this arrangement they had received three or four years' half-pay; but this money had not been paid to them under circumstances that would ensure their going out, on the contrary, he was informed that some of them had dissipated the money and remained in England. If that were the case, the whole of the object of the arrangement would be defeated, and many of these men would ultimately come upon their parishes for support. He understood that 700 or 800 men in Ireland were in
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the same situation. The case, with respect to them, was still stronger than with respect to the pensioners who were Englishmen; for the latter could have recourse to their parishes, but the former would be without that support. He thought that some caution ought to be used on this matter, and that, for the protection of these soldiers, the right hon. Secretary ought to refuse to allow them to make the commutation, unless they actually went abroad, as settlers, nor to make it after they were forty-five years of age. If the new regulations were well acted upon, he was quite sure, that the Pension List might be reduced 200,000 l. within the space of ten years. His chief object in making these remarks was, to prevent the character of the country being injured, for nothing was more discreditable than that its veterans should have to depend on parish bounty for support. The right hon. Baronet ought to stand between the soldier and the public for the protection of both.
Sir H. Parnellsaid, that no commutation had been yet agreed to but what he found commenced and in progress when he took office. New regulations were in preparation, and he assured the gallant Officer that he was quite willing to act in the character which the gallant Officer had recommended him to assume. He could assure the hon. and gallant Member, that nothing whatever had been done at the War-office on this subject which was not strictly in accordance with the memorandum drawn up while the gallant Officer was Secretary-at-War.
Vote agreed to.
On the motion that the Chairman report these Resolutions to the House,

VICE-TREASURER (IRELAND.)
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, he would take that opportunity of observing upon some complication of accounts in the office of Vice-treasurer of Ireland. It had not taken place during the time that Mr. M. Fitzgerald was in office; but he understood, that this confusion did exist, and that it extended for some time back. He wished to know if this report were true; if any loss had occurred, and what steps had been taken to recover it?
Lord Althorpsaid, that the accounts of the former Vice-Treasurer had not been made up till lately. They were now under the consideration of the auditors.
Mr. Robert Gordonobserved, that it was then true, that the accounts had been unsettled for years.
Mr. Spring Riceadmitted that to be the fact; but said, it was not the fault of the late Board of Treasury, who had often pressed for the accounts.
Mr. Humewished to know what was the amount of money unaccounted for?
Mr. Spring Ricecould not tell till the accounts had been audited.
Mr. Robert Gordonblamed the delay of the late Government.
Mr. Humesaid, the blame was still the more when it was considered that this same person had been recently appointed to the Government of a colony. That appointment particularly ought to be inquired into.
Sir J. Wrottesleythought, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to give some explanation on this subject. He wished also to know who had recommended this officer to his appointment abroad?
Mr. Goulburnsaid, it was difficult to give any explanation when he was not in the possession of official documents.
Mr. O'Connellobserved, that this case was a bad one. The officer in question had had a salary of 2,000 l. a year, and it seemed that for five years he had been permitted to receive 10,000 l. a year of the public money without accounting for it. He did not know how to explain this, except that the late Vice-Treasurer was a loyal man—and in Ireland that was a specific cure for all vices.
The House resumed.

DEAN FOREST BOUNDARIES BILL.
Lord Duncannon moved the second reading of the Dean Forest Boundaries Bill.
Sir William Guisedid not rise to offer any opposition to the Bill, but as some tumults which lately prevailed in that part of the country were connected with the attempt to settle the boundaries of the Forest, he thought this a fit time to make observations on the subject. He believed the people in the Forest had laboured under a great mistake as to their supposed rights. His hon. Colleague and himself had had interviews with the foresters, and he was sure his hon. Colleague would corroborate the statement he was about to make. It was well-known that formerly courts were held in this district, but they had been allowed for many years to fall
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into disuse. He believed it was owing to the want of these courts, in which their grievances might have been examined and redressed, that the rights of the people were not well understood, and that the disturbances had arisen. The people believed, that by these courts only could their claims be properly considered, and his hon. Colleague and himself had been instructed to endeavour to obtain their re-establishment. He was happy to add, the noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests had promised to take the subject into consideration, and he had no doubt his Majesty's Government would endeavour to effect what was most advantageous to the public. He thought it right to mention the subject, because a general opinion prevailed among the people, that their rights had been infringed.
Mr. Moretoncorroborated the statement of his hon. Colleague, and he had no doubt that the re-establishment of the courts alluded to would be attended with great advantage. As the attention of the noble Lord had been directed to the subject, he hoped some remedy would be devised for the evil.
Lord Duncannonobserved, that the re-establishment of the Courts would be attended with some difficulty, but the subject was under consideration.
Mr. Huntsaid, he had heard a great deal of these riots, that the bounds had been levelled, and so forth, and he begged to ask whether any of the persons charged with these riots were in prison or whether they had been admitted to bail.
Lord Duncannonsaid, he understood sonic of the rioters were in prison, but the greater number had been admitted to bail.
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, it was a singular fact, that this Bill had not been printed. It was quite unusual for a bill to go through a second reading without being printed. Its provisions might be all good and right, but many hon. Members must wish to see them.
Lord Duncannonsaid, the Bill had gone through the House last Session when every Member had a copy of it. He could have no objection, however, to have it printed if it was thought desirable.
Mr. Robert Gordonapprehended, that considerable alterations had been made in the Bill since that time. The very important clause relating to St. Briavels Court had been since introduced.
Read a second time.

CORPORATE FUNDS BILL.
On the Order of the Day being moved for the second reading of the Corporate Funds Bill,
Mr. Trantsupposed this Bill was the same as that introduced in the last Parliament, and he should oppose it on the same grounds as he then opposed it unless he heard better reasons stated in its support. The Bill, if he understood it rightly, was founded on the principle that it was exceedingly improper for Corporations to appropriate their funds to election purposes. Now this rule might be good if it was general, but we had Parliamentary Candidate societies, and other bodies under different names, appropriating funds for such purposes, and he thought it would be invidious and unfair to restrain Corporations by an express law from applying their funds in the same manner.
Mr. Humeobserved, that he did not know what his hon. friend meant by comparing Corporations to the Parliamentary Candidate Society. In the latter case parties used their own money—Corporations applied the property of others. It did not belong to them but to the public. The distinction was as broad as possible. He did not wish to enter into any discussion at present, but the fallacy on which his hon. friend built his argument was evident.
Mr. Pagetconcurred in the propriety of the distinction laid down by the hon. member for Middlesex. The funds applied by Corporations to election purposes were, in almost every instance, strictly and entirely the funds of the towns. In many cases those funds were grossly and shamefully misapplied, and the trusts monstrously abused, grossly infringing on the privileges of that House. He would refer to an instance which occurred not long since, in a borough near his residence, which he did not adopt from hearsay, nor had it merely been whispered about; it was authorised and blazoned abroad by the Corporation. Having had large funds at its disposal, which for a period of 500 or 600 years, had been strictly appropriated to their legitimate purposes, the necessities of the town, the Corporation had taken the money, and in order to supply the deficiency, it imposed a tax on the inhabitants to the extent of 4,000 l. or 5,000 l. per annum, who were little able to support so great a burthen. The funds, to supply the place of which this heavy taxation
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was levied, were applied to the corrupt purpose of returning Members to that House. A number of honorary freemen had been made, to smother the elective franchise possessed by the freemen of the town, and in this manner the Corporation sought to establish a political influence in the borough. The members of it bargained with an hon. Baronet residing in the neighbourhood, and another Gentleman who was their candidate, to expend 27,000 l. in returning them for the borough of Leicester. Without entering further into detail, he must say, that this was a system which called imperiously for a remedy, and he assured the House, that such an application of public money was felt by the people to be a robbery. The question was, whether they were not bound to prevent the recurrence of such practices; and the decision on it ought not to be delayed. He could not conceive a grosser fraud than such a misapplication of Corporate funds, and it was impossible that Parliament should allow it to continue. If the Bill should be defeated, he hoped the Ministry would take it up, for the country called for it. The taxation imposed by Corporations, and which was not under the scrutiny of the House, ought to be most seriously watched, if for no other reason than that the people themselves had no voice in the imposition, and in all cases the funds intrusted to Corporations should be applied to their destined purposes.
Bill read a second time.