Commons Sitting of 23 June 1831

MINUTES.
The SPEAKER proceeded to St. James's to present the Address, in answer to his Majesty's most gracious Speech He was accompanied by the Mover and several Members of the Privy Council.
Bills brought in. By Sir E. SUGDEN, to amend the Provisions of the Statute of Frauds:—By Sir J. SCARLETT, to amend the Laws respecting the Attestation of Instruments;—By Mr. SPRING RICK, to consolidate and amend
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the Laws for suppressing the illicit making of Malt and distillation of Spirits (Ireland):—By Lord DUNCANNON, for repealing part of an Act, 7th Geo. 4th, for Paving, Watching, Improving, &c. Grovesnor Place, and other streets adjacent to the Garden of Buckingham House:—By Mr. G. LAMB, to Indemnify Deputy Lieutenants (Scotland); and to authorize the Exchange of Ecclesiastical Lands:— By Mr. PORTMAN, to Consolidate the Laws relating to Highways.
On the Motion of Lord DUNCANNON, a Committee was appointed to inquire into matters connected with Windsor Castle and Buckingham Palace.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HURRIES, of the Balances remaining unpaid on the 1st of January, 1831, upon Grants of Parliament for Ordnance Services, set forth in Acts, 11 Geo. 4th; and 1 Wm. 4th, c. 0.5, § 12; and also, of the Amount paid on each of the several heads of Services, for which the said Grants were made, between 1st January, 1S31, and 21st June, 1831; Account of the Balance remaining in the Treasurer of the Ordnance's hands, on the 1st of January, 1831; and of Monies received by him, between that date and 21st June, 1831, distinguishing the several heads of Ordnance Services, as set forth in the Acts before mentioned:—Ou the Motion of Mr. HUGHES HUGHES, giving the particulars of applications made to the Bishops for their assents to building additional Churches, under 5th Geo. 4th, c. 103; and giving the particulars of applications made to the Commissioners for building new Churches, under the 3rd Section of Act 7th and 8th Geo. 4th, c. 72:—On the Motion of Mr. RUTHVEN, from the Diocesan and Endowed Schools (Ireland), of the number of Scholars paying, and those taught gratuitously; and of the number of Vessels and Tonnage entered, and departing from the Port of Strangford, in Ireland, for the last three years; and of all Steam Engines used in Great Britain and Ireland, or in Vessels, distinguishing their powers:—On the Motion of Mr. ELLIS, Papers relating to Public Accounts were ordered to be laid on the Table.
Petitions presented. By Lord MANDEVILLE, from Holy-well and Needingworth, for the Abolition of Slavery; and from St. Ives, for the Repeal of the Duty on Coals. By Mr. TREVOR, from the Non-Resident Freemen of Durham, for continuation of their Franchise. By Mr. HUNT, from Andrew Ranfield, for the Repealing of the Subletting Act.

MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.
Lord Mandevillepresented Petitions from Aberdeen, Armagh, and other places, against the annual grant to the Roman Catholic College of Maynooth, to which grant the petitioners attributed much of the evils of Ireland.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he was glad that the noble Lord had moved that the petitions be printed, be cause he thought there was no little ingenuity requisite to make out the position that the evils of Ireland were attributable to the 9,000 l. or 11,000 l. a-year granted to the College of Maynooth. However, he perfectly concurred with the petitioners, that the grant was an exceptionable one. Let them make this bargain, which would be fair to both parties—let the Protestants contribute nothing to the support of the Catholic religion, and, on the other hand, let the Catholics contribute nothing to the support of the Protestant religion.
Petitions to be printed.

AFFRAY AT NEWTOWNBARRY.
Mr. Huntpresented a petition from the Wine-porters of Dublin, praying for the Repeal of the Union. The hon. Member said, he was convinced that they must have one of two things—either the Repeal of the Union, or the Poor-laws in Ireland. It appeared by the Papers of to-day, that twenty or thirty of the populace in Ireland had been slain by the Yeomanry Cavalry in an affray about tithes. He supposed they would hear more of this transaction, and he would give no opinion about it at present; but he must say, that this state of things in Ireland could not be got rid of by Special Commissions, and prosecutions, and the gallows. Nothing but the Poor-laws would do any good to Ireland, and if the Parliament would not give Poor-laws, he would support the measure of the hon. member for Kerry (Mr. O'Connell) for a Repeal of the Union.
Mr. Maxwellbegged to say a few words respecting the transaction to which the hon. Member had referred, as he happened to be connected with that part of the country in which it had occurred. He took it for granted that the hon. Member alluded to the unfortunate transaction that had taken place at Newtownbarry. In that parish the Tithe Composition Act was in force, so that the evils complained of in other parishes did not exist in Newtownbarry. The clergyman of the parish, who was an extremely humane and excellent man, had not been able to get his tithes from the Roman Catholic farmers, though they had agreed to the composition. The clergyman went to one of them, named Doyle, who told the clergyman plainly, that he would pay him nothing, and that he might distrain if he pleased. Upon this the clergyman resolved, very much against his will, to send in a distress, and he carried his Resolution into effect. The sale of the cattle that was seized under the distress was fixed for Saturday. In the mean time it was rumoured that a rescue of the cattle was intended, and upon this information being received, the Yeomanry were called in, but strict orders were given them not to fire on the people. The cattle were rescued from the pound, and a mob of 1,000 or 2,000 assembled. Upon this the Magistrate came up with the Yeomanry and the Police. The Yeomanry were immediately fired upon by the people: one of their number was killed, and others were mortally wounded. Then it was, that
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the Yeomanry thought themselves justified in firing in self-defence; and the consequence was, he grieved to say, that many of the people were killed. Such was the information he bad received, and he had thought it right to state it to the House, after the allusion which the hon. member for Preston had made to the transaction. He would only add, that Captain Graham, the Magistrate, was a gentleman with whom he had been long acquainted, and whom he knew to be a gallant, an honourable, and a humane man.
Lord Miltonentreated hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House to refrain from the expression of any opinion upon this unfortunate occurrence, until all the facts connected with it were before them. He entreated them not to rely upon any ex parte statements, come from whom they might. He admitted the authority of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Maxwell) opposite to be most respectable; but he did entreat that hon. Gentleman to consider and to weigh well and maturely in his own mind whether the facts of the case would bear out one of the expressions which he had used. The expression to which he alluded was, that "the people had fired upon the Yeomanry." He had received information —but he once more entreated the House to deal with his information and with the information of all other individuals alike, and not to decide upon ex parte statements from any quarter, no matter how respectable,—he had received information, he said, of a very different character. According to his information, the people might, indeed, be said, in one sense, to have fired upon the Yeomanry, but it was with stones, not with fire-arms; and he was sure that throwing stones at the Yeomanry was not what the House would understand by the expression "firing upon the Yeomanry." He mentioned this only to illustrate the prudence of that advice which he took the liberty of earnestly tendering to the House—namely, of keeping their minds in complete indecision upon the transaction until the facts connected with it should be laid officially before them. He had left the spot only the day before this occurrence took place, and he could answer for its tranquility at that time, as well as for the loyalty and good disposition of the inhabitants. Whatever might be the merits of the Rector, as had been stated by the hon. Gentleman opposite, he (Lord Milton) could state, upon as

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good authority as that hon. Gentleman could have access to, that that reverend gentleman, since he had come into the possession of this benefice, had not been upon harmonious terms with his parishioners. But again he would repeat, that he deprecated discussion until they had the proper documents before them.
Mr. Leaderexpressed his entire concurrence in the feeling and generous sentiments which had fallen from the noble Lord who had just sat down, and he equally concurred with the noble Lord as to the propriety of not discussing this matter until they had the whole facts of the case before them. As to the operations of the Tithe Composition Act, he (Mr. Leader) had taken great pains to extend it, and had acted as churchwarden in several parishes where it had been carried into operation, and he would state from his experience of Ireland, that wherever that Act had been put in force it had been productive of the most beneficial effects; and he, therefore, had his forebodings— he more than suspected, seeing that Act was in force in this parish—that all had not been right or fair in this case. For example, he did think that calling out the Yeomanry to enforce payment of tithes, was a measure which ought never to have been resorted to: the civil power was sufficient to enforce the laws, and if it were not, then let the Government ask for greater power, but let not the Magistrates call out heated partizans to enforce the laws.
Mr. Lefroydid not at all question the propriety of not then discussing the subject, and of suspending their judgment until they had the facts of the case before them, but when the hon. Member who had last spoken, expressed his suspicion that all had not been right, he (Mr. Lefroy) deemed it his duty to defend the clergyman whose character was assailed in this instance, against such a charge. One circumstance was to him to place this event on the same footing as that which took place at Merthyr Tydvil; namely, that it was quite clear, that one of the Yeomanry died of a gun-shot wound, and that others had been mortally wounded before they fired on the populace. From this it was also clear, the people had come prepared with fire-arms. If it were no so, then the Yeomanry must have shot themselves. On the whole, there was no ground for casting any imputation on the
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clergyman or Yeomanry. He would add, that the clergymen in that part of the country where this transaction had occurred, found it extremely difficult to collect their tithes; and to such a degree had that difficulty arisen, that he knew an eminently respectable clergyman there who had been obliged to send his books to Dublin to have them sold for the support of his family. He knew that for nine months that clergyman had not been able to collect his tithes. He applied to the Irish Government, and the answer was, that he should seek his remedy; and when a clergyman did so, he was assailed in that House as the promoter of disturbances.
Mr. Lambertlamented, that they should have entered upon such a premature discussion of this description, before they had the proper documents relating to this melancholy transaction before the House. Having lived in Wexford many years, and knowing the loyalty of the people, it would be with extreme reluctance he could bring himself to believe, that the people had done any thing to warrant the massacre that had been committed. He had been employed to defend the parishioners against the collection of tithes for three years, and he was aware that there was a strong feeling against tithes, but during the whole of that period not a single outrage bad been committed. He thought, therefore, that hon. Gentlemen ought to be slow, indeed, in coming to a conclusion that this lamentable occurrence had been provoked. The learned Gentleman opposite had spoken of a clergyman being obliged to sell his books. Now he (Mr. Lambert) knew some clergymen in that county who received such small salaries, that they were not enabled to have any books at all. Looking at the late transactions which had occurred in some districts in Ireland, he must say, that there appeared to be a disposition on the part of certain persons there, to bring on a rebellion in that county. He repeated, that, looking at those transactions, he was led to believe that there were persons in Ireland who were anxious to provoke a rebellion there, in order, as they hoped, to bring back the old state of things. He would tell such persons, however, who foolishly hoped to achieve such an object, that the days of rebellion were gone by, and that the age of revolution was come. When he spoke of revolution, he did not mean to say that he approved of it—on

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the contrary, he condemned it; but he mentioned it as a matter of caution to the persons to whom he alluded, in order that the people might not be driven to a state where resistance would become a duty.
Mr. J. Grattanconsidered it his duty to deny the fact of the impossibility of collecting tithes, or that any combination existed to deprive the clergymen of their rights. It had been asserted by the learned member for the University of Dublin that a clergyman in the neighbourhood where this transaction had occurred, had been obliged to send his books to Dublin to be sold for the support of his family. Now he (Mr. Grattan), as a gentleman who resided in that county, felt it his duty to contradict that statement. He was ready to testify that there could not be a better set of clergymen than the clergymen of the county of Wicklow generally; but he would deny that there was any combination to deprive them of their just rights. He felt bound to state, that in his late canvass, previous to his return for Wicklow, he had heard in that part of Wexford, bordering on Wicklow, where this matter had occurred, murmurs of complaints against the individual who was prominently connected with this transaction. It was exceedingly wrong to have called out the Yeomanry. The police, who, when applied to, appeared to have conducted themselves extremely well, should alone have been employed. The Yeomanry, it was well known in Ireland, were generally selected from party motives, and they were consequently a very obnoxious force.
Colonel Chichesterthought it was highly wrong to enter into such a discussion in the absence of the right hon. the Secretary for Ireland. He did not believe that the peasantry had fired on the Yeomanry.
Mr. Walkersaid, the whole disturbance was to be traced to the great poverty of the peasantry.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that having learnt that twenty lives had been lost, he had made an application yesterday to Government relative to this melancholy transaction, and had been informed by the Secretary for Ireland, that the Irish Government had at once instituted an inquiry into the matter, and that they had sent down a very proper officer, Mr. Greene, the King's Counsel, to investigate the transaction on the spot. Having obtained that
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information, he had determined to abstain from noticing the matter until the result of that investigation should be laid before the House. It had been, however, prematurely introduced by the hon. member for Preston, who, no doubt, could only have been influenced by motives of humanity. How deplorable was it that twenty-one human lives had been sacrificed in a squabble about tithes. Whatever might be the result of this inquiry, he should have been glad to have observed (what he lamented he did not) on his side the House, something like regret that Irish blood had been wasted, and that the spirit of the living was not unafflicted at the massacre of the dead.
Mr. Maxwellhad only stated what he believed to have been the facts.
Mr. Hunt Mr. Hunt, in moving that the petition be printed, could not agree that the discussion had been premature. Whether it had or not, he trusted it would have a good effect. It was but a few days ago they had read in the public prints of the slaughter of eighteen human beings at Merthyr Tydvil. Now they had to peruse the melancholy details of another butchery of twenty-one of his Majesty's subjects. An opportunity had now been afforded to the public of hearing something from both sides, respecting this latter slaughter. Whether the Yeoman shot himself, as the Yeoman did at Chichester, he did not know, but the fact was, that one score of a Catholic population had been slaughtered without remorse by an Orange Yeomanry. He sincerely trusted that the result of an inquiry would be satisfactory, but still he could not but regret that such a system of havoc should be resorted to.
Sir J. Newportdeprecated prejudging such a question. He lamented, as much as any one could lament, the loss of human life that had taken place on this occasion, but he hoped the House would set its face against such premature discussions.
Petition to be printed.

ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
The Speakerstated, that he had to read to the House his Majesty's answer to the Address. It was as follows:—
"I return you my sincere thanks for your dutiful and loyal Address, and for your assurances that you will make such further provision as may be necessary for

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the public service, as well as for the application of the sums granted by the last Parliament.
"In all measures that may be necessary for the improvement of the resources, and for the preservation of the peace of the country, as well as for the support of the honour of my Crown, I rely with confidence on your constant and zealous co-operation."
On the Motion of Lord Althorp it was resolved, nemine contradicente,
"That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to return his Majesty the thanks of this House for his most gracious Answer to their Address."

IMPROVEMENTS IN LONDON.
Lord Duncannonmoved to renew the Bill of last Session, which gave power to the Commissioners to build a new street from Waterloo Bridge to the northern parts of the metropolis, appointed by 7th of George 4th, for carrying into effect the improvements in the Strand.
Mr. Ridley Colbornewished to know, whether the public land which had been given to the King's College, had not been granted on the condition that the façade of the College towards the river should be made to form an eastern wing to Somerset House, exactly corresponding; to that at the western extremity of the building? He thought no one could deny, that it was desirable to make one wing of a great public building correspond with the other, but it appeared to him that the College had been erupted in utter defiance of this agreement; and he required to know by what authority this had taken place.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that the ground had been granted upon such conditions: and as it appeared to him that they had not been complied with, he had applied to a competent authority, by whom he had been informed, that the building was so erected as to admit of the façade to the river being completed in exact conformity to the western wing of Somerset House, and that it was intended so to complete it.
Mr. Cressett Pelhamhoped the information given was well-founded, for the eastern wing was at present a most unsightly object.
Mr. Hudson Gurneywished to call the at-
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tention of the noble Lord to the state of the New Road from the West of London to the City, some parts of which were in a state truly disgraceful, particularly the streets at Pentonville, and parts of the City Road.
Lord Granville Somersetsaid, that considerable sums had been spent upon the improvements of the Strand, and the public were now annoyed by the erection of a building for the exhibition of the skeleton of a whale. He wished the whale had had some other local habitation, as its present covering obstructed the view of St. Martin's church, and was an annoyance to those who wished to obtain a sight of that beautiful building. He would take the liberty, therefore, of asking the noble Lord whether, this shed had been erected with his approbation and knowledge?
Lord Duncannonassured the noble Lord, that the building he complained of, which had been erected with his acquiescence, would remain but a very short period, and he begged the noble Lord to recollect, that the whale thus accommodated was the prince of whales. The new street from Waterloo Bridge, as far as Bow-street, would entail a very small expense on the public, as the cost would be defrayed by the sale of lots of Crown land, forming the site of new houses. The Crown, however, had no interest in the street to the north of Bow-street, but as that line of it would improve the adjacent properties, the proprietors would contribute to the expense. The state of the metropolitan roads did not come exactly within the superintendance of the Board of Woods and Forests, but at present its attention was directed to the subject.
Mr. Goulburnthought, that as the new street would greatly benefit the two noblemen whose estates were adjacent to it, it was but right that they should contribute to the expenses of the improvement.
Lord Duncannonsaid, the noble individuals to whom the hon. Gentleman referred, had, on being applied to, expressed their desire to enter into an arrangement, but the Board to which he was attached had nothing to do with the proposed improvement beyond Long Acre.
Bill brought in.

DEAN FOREST.
Lord Duncannonmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to ascertain the boundaries of Dean Forest, and to inquire into the rights and privileges claimed by free miners, and other purposes.
Lord Granville Somersetwished to take the present opportunity to state, that the prison of St. Leonard's, near the Forest of Dean, was in a miserable condition. He had seen a person who had been confined several months, and could have no change of air but by an order from the Justices. In such a prison, persons confined suffered dreadfully, and he trusted that some attention would be paid to his representation.
Lord Duncannonassured the noble Lord that the subject had come under consideration, and he hoped some beneficial alterations would shortly be made.
Bill brought in.

CORN LAWS.
Lord Miltonwas anxious to take advantage of the earliest opportunity to state, that it was his intention, on the first convenient day (of which he would give due notice), to bring the subject of the Corn-laws under the consideration of the House. He would confine himself in the present Session to moving certain resolutions, expressive of the expediency of a revision of those laws, postponing till the next Session a full discussion of their principle and tendency.
Mr. Huntwould, in the present Session, give the House an opportunity of the full discussion which the noble Lord would postpone till the next, on the occasion of a motion which it was his intention to submit for a repeal of the Corn-laws.

REFORM IN PARLIAMENT.
Mr. Huntpresented a Petition from Preston, signed by 3,000 or 4,000 persons, praying that the franchise rights which they at present possessed might not be interfered with by the Reform Bill. This petition he had received previous to the late dissolution, and it would be in the recollection of the House, that he had asserted that the measure of Reform proposed by Ministers had not satisfied the people of the north of England. They demanded more than that Bill professed to give. This declaration had been denied by several hon. Members, but the petition now presented was a proof of the correctness of his assertion; for although his constituents supported the Reform Bill, yet they prayed the House to grant Universal Suffrage, Annual Parliaments, and Vote by Ballot, and they would not be satisfied until these were obtained. He agreed with this opinion, for he thought every man had a right to
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vote, as was the case at Preston, and his constituents and himself were anxious that all their countrymen should enjoy the same privileges. He did not mean to throw any impediment in the way of the plan introduced by Ministers, for he believed there was an overwhelming majority in its favour throughout the country, and he had no doubt it would be carried with a high hand. He certainly thought it would do but little good, but the general opinion seemed to be, that if this was settled, the people would soon obtain the other things they demanded. He regretted, that his opinion on this subject should have been misrepresented, and he conceived the petition to be a complete answer to the misrepresentations which had been made of his unpopularity with his constituents. He maintained, that by the old law of the land, up to the reign of Henry 6th, every man had a right to vote, and at present the great body of the people were looking forward to regain the privileges of which they had wrongfully been deprived, They said, "give us the Reform Bill, and we will obtain the measures which will satisfy us." He had been assailed by such violent charges, which were equally false and scandalous, of having deceived the people, that he wished an inquiry to be made, and if the charges were proved, he ought to be expelled from that House. He denied that he was connected with either Whigs or Tories, and detested borough mongering, by whomsoever it was practised.
Mr. Jamescould not assent to the statements of the hon. Member. He had been all his life an advocate for Universal Suffrage, the Vote by Ballot, and Annual i Parliaments; but would abandon all, except the Ballot, in favour of the measure of Reform proposed by Ministers. Should, indeed, that measure fail—as he did not expect—in producing all the benefit which he contemplated, he would again be an out-and-out radical Reformer.
Mr. Slaneywas sure that the bitterest foe of Reform could not give utterance to any doctrine more insidiously adapted to mar the success of the Reform Bill than that just propounded by the hon. member for Preston.
Mr. Huntnext presented a Petition from the county of Somerset, the result of a public meeting, approving of the Ministerial plan of Reform. The hon. Member declared, that the petition had been intrusted to him, in preference to

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the county Members, because they had confidence in him, and that the meeting agreed unanimously, that the Ballot was necessary for the security of the voters. He had been accused of being an enemy to Reform, and that he had changed his political principles, and been bought over to the side of the Tories. In contending that the Bill was by no means entitled to the popular commendation so lavishly bestowed upon it, he but spoke the sentiments of his constituents, who again returned him, notwithstanding the efforts of the Parliamentary Candidate Society to unseat him; so that all the stories relating to his unpopularity at Preston were untrue.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanwas sure that something must be done towards curing the hon. Member of his cacoethes loquendi malady. Night after night the hon. Member was wasting the time of the House with long-winded egotistical harangues, in which nobody felt the remotest interest, and which the Reporters, in the exercise of that discretion—for which he (Alderman Waithman) could never be too grateful—very judiciously permitted to drop into deserved oblivion. The other evening he heard the hon. Member make use of not less than seventy-five "I,"—"I's," "I did this," and "I did that," in twelve minutes by the clock. If the hon. Member proceeded at this rate, the hon. member for Kerry (Mr. O'Connell) would have to complain of his monopoly of long-winded egotism being invaded.
Mr. Huntwas not an orator, par excellence, like the hon. Alderman, but would nevertheless pledge himself not to produce the invariable effect of the hon. Alderman's orations on all who had the misfortune to hear them—namely, set them to sleep. He would back ton minutes of the hon. Alderman's eloquence at any time as a specific where the strongest opium had failed.
Colonel Evanssaid, he was the individual alluded to by the hon. member for Preston as having endeavoured to prevent his return at the late election; and he had only to regret that he did not arrive at the place till it was too late, and thereby have effected a great public benefit by the defeat of the hon. Member.
Mr. Jamessaid, he had not changed his opinions with regard to the Ballot without which he feared the proposed Bill would not be effectual. But he thought the Bill
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with the Ballot would' be sufficient to render Universal Suffrage and Annual Parliaments unnecessary.
Petition laid on the Table.

TIME OF MEETING.
The Speaker The Speaker, on the question of adjournment, said, he was anxious to ascertain the feelings of the House as to the hour on which he should in future take the Chair. As that was the first day of private business, and on that account expecting a press of such business, he came down to the House at three o'clock, as he had himself proposed; but as no such press could be expected to-morrow, or in future, he wished to know whether it was the wish of the House that he should take the Chair at three or at four o'clock; [Loud cries of "four o'clock," from all parts of the House.] He begged it therefore to be understood, then, that in future he should not come down to the House till a quarter to four o'clock.