Commons Sitting of 21 February 1831

Preamble
MINUTES.) New Members sworn. Hon. J. S. WORTLEY, for Bossiney; and Sir W. HORNE, for Bletchingley.
A new Writ was ordered for Wigan, in the room of J. A. HODSON, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
The Committee appointed to inquire into the Election for the Town of Wexford reported, that WM. WIGRAM, esqwas not duly elected, and that Sir E. C. DERINO ought to have been returned. Clerk of the Crown ordered to amend the Return.
Bills. The Colonial Trade Bill was read a second time. Heritable Infeofments Bill was read a second time. The Exchequer Bills Bill was read a second time. A Bill to amend the 6th of his late Majesty (the Bankrupt Acts) brought in and read a first time. The Select Vestries Bill was read a second time.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HUGHES HUGHES, the particulars of all applications made to his Majesty's Commissioners, appointed by virtue of the Act 58 Geo. 3rd, c. 45. for building, and promoting the building, of additional Churches in populous parishes; for their assent to the building and endowing of Churches or Chapels, under the 3rd section of the Act of 7 and 8 Geo. 4th, c. 72, specifying those which have been complied with, and the conditions of compliance, and those which have been refused, with the grounds of refusal:—On the Motion of Mr. LAMB, the quantity of Sheep's and Lamb's Wool imported into Great Britain between 5th January, 1830, and 5lb January, 1831, specifying the Countries from which it came, the quantity that has paid a Duty of 1d. per pound, and the quantity that has paid a Duty of ½d. per pound; also, the quantity of foreign Wool which has been re-exported during the came period, and the Countries to which it has been sent, and the quantity remaining Warehoused under Bond on 1st January last; also, the quantity of British Sheep's and Lamb's Wool, exported from Great Britain between 5th January, 1S30, and 5th January, 1831, specifying the countries to which it has been sent; also, statement of the number of Houses in each City, Borough, and Town, in England and Wales, sending Members to Parliament, and the greatest number of Electors polled at any Election within the same, at any period during the last thirty years, so far as the same can be ascertained from the returning officers.
Petitions presented. Against the Tythe System, by Sir W. FOULKES, from Walsoken, and other places in Norfolk: —By Lord EBRINGTON, from the Agriculturists of South Moulton, and the Parish of Bradford, Devon. By the same noble Lord, from Navan, for the Repeal of the Vestries (Ireland) Act; from the Candle Makers of Plymouth, for a continuation of the License to make Candles; from Collumpton, complaining of the low rate of Wages in the Cloth Manufacture, and asking Relief. By Mr. HART DAVIS, from Bristol, against the alteration in the Timber Duties; and from the Ship-owners of the same place, for a Reduction of the Duties on West-India produce. By Mr. B. HOY, from the Isle of Wight, against the proposed Tax on Steam Vessels. For a General Fast, by Lord BERNARD, from Iver:—By Mr. A. DUNCOMBE, from East Retford. By Mr. SHAW, from the Bankers and Merchants of Dublin, praying that, whatever measure might be adopted for the Abolition of Negro Slavery, due regard might be had to existing interests; from the Calico Weavers of Dublin, praying for a Revision of the Duty on Cotton; from an individual named Hamilton, against the practice of Duelling; and from the Corporation of Smiths of the City of Dublin, praying that a Session of Parliament might be held in that City every third year. For the Abolition of Slavery, by Mr. JOHN WOOD, from Clithero, and various classes of Dissenters at Wigan. By

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Mr. S. RICE, from Limerick, against the Drawback on Soap; and from Carrobrow, against further Grants to the Kildare-street Society. For a Reform in Parliament, by Mr. BENETT, from Devizes:—By Mr. HODGES, from Bromley, Whitstable, and the Lathe of Aylesford, Kent; and from Leeds, Kent, praying for a Repeal of the Union with Ireland.

The hon. Member said, that he concurred in the prayer of all these Petitions, with the exception of that which called for a Repeal of the Union.
By Mr. FYSCHE PALMER, from Reading, for Reform; and from the same persons, against the House and Window Tax.

BANKRUPT LAWS.
The Sheriffs of Londonpresented the Petition of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons of the City of London, in Common Council assembled, praying for an amendment of the Bankrupt Laws.
Mr. Alderman Woodsupported the petition, and represented, that the abuses of the present system called loudly for a remedy. The manner in which accounts were kept tended to gross frauds. Seventy Commissioners made a bad Court, and there was not a merchant or trader in the city of London who would not rejoice to see it abolished. Among the Bankruptcy Judges there should be at least one mercantile man; for the decision of the questions which came before them rather required a knowledge of business and accounts than of law. He hoped to see a speedy reform.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanalso supported the petition, and condemned the expense and abuses of the present state of the law. It was not the Corporation of London alone who complained of the evil, but the whole country felt the necessity of a change. The number of sinecure offices, now connected with the Court, yielded at least 6,000 l. a year, and it ought to be reformed, if it were only to get rid of them.
Mr. J. Smithwas glad that the matter had been taken up in the way it now was, and hoped, that before the end of the Session there would be an alteration of the law. The number of Commissioners ought to be reduced, and the Court ought to sit continually.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that nothing could be worse than the present system. Of twenty-three lawyers who had given their opinions before the Committee of which his hon. friend opposite had been Chairman, and before the Commissioners of inquiry, one only had been in favour of the existing system. The primary tribunal
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and the court of appeal were equally unsatisfactory. They provided the maximum of expense and delay, and the minimum of justice.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that only one system could be worse than the present Bankrupt-laws in this country, and that was the system which prevailed in Ireland. He did not, however, agree in the opinion, that the Judges of the Bankrupt Court should be merchants; no man could make a good Judge who was not acquainted with law.
Petition laid on the Table.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonpresented a Petition to the same effect from (he Bankers, Merchants, and Traders of the City of London. The Lord Chancellor was about to bring in a bill on this subject, for which he felt bound, on behalf of these petitioners, sincerely to thank that noble and learned Lord. He understood that the principle of that measure was to be, that there should be one Court, sitting from day to day, for the despatch of business. Whether there ought to be one Judge, or three, or five, he did not now offer an opinion, but he had no doubt the alteration which was to be made would be for the butter. The present expense of the Bankrupt Court exceeded the expense of cither the Court of King's Bench or the Common Pleas, and nobody could for one moment think of depreciating the utility of these Courts, by comparing the business they transacted to the business of the Bankruptcy Commissioners.
Petition to lie on the Table.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM — SIT TINGS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. J. Woodsaid, he had three very important Petitions to present, praying for Parliamentary Reform. The first was from Downton, in Wiltshire, and the petitioners stated that the whole of the electors of that borough consisted only of six individuals, who were tenants of one noble Lord, and that, on the day of election, the practice was, for his Lordship's agent to go round with a bag of parchments, which were distributed among the parties to ratify their qualification. Having served this purpose, the parchments were re-deposited in the bag, and carried away by the agent. This constituted the whole of the proceedings. The next Petition was from the inhabitants of Stockport, in

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Cheshire, and they stated, that within a distance of twenty-five miles around them, there was a population consisting of no less than 900,000 souls, all of whom were without Representatives. The third Petition was from Rochdale, and was very numerously signed. The individuals from whom this petition came expressed an opinion, in which he entirely concurred— namely, that whatever measure of Reform might be brought forward by his Majesty's Government, it must be ineffectual and unsatisfactory, unless it embraced Vote by Ballot.
An hon. Member said, that, at a public meeting, recently held in Berkshire, the Earl of Radnor had expressed himself most anxious that his patronage should be taken away from the borough of Downton.
Mr. J. Woodsaid, he entertained the highest respect for the Earl of Radnor, and he was far, very far, from imputing any blame to that estimable nobleman. The system was what he blamed, and not the individual.
On the Motion that the Petitions be printed,
Mr. O'Connellcomplained of the extremely late hours to which the sittings of the House were prolonged. It was utterly impossible, with such a practice, that the public business could be properly gone through; and, therefore, it was his intention to move, to-night, that the House should adjourn at half-past eleven unless an understanding were expressly come to, that they should rise at twelve, at the latest.
Mr. H. Gurneywas of opinion, that no business could be gone through if hon. Members persisted in the practice of making speeches, upon mere incidental questions, upon the presentation of petitions. The modern practice of doing that was the cause why the House was able to transact so little real business.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanthought, that nothing interfered so much with the public time as the practice of making long speeches on the presentation of petitions.
Mr. O'Connellrepeated what he had already stated, and observed at the same time, that, in future, hon. Members would be deterred from filling the Chair, if they were detained in it to endure a fatigue which must wear out the most robust constitution.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, the House possessed sufficient power to prove to the
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hon. member for Waterford that it disregarded his taunts and threats of interruption. If the hon. Member persisted in the course he proposed, he (Sir M. W. Ridley) hoped to see him speedily defeated by a Resolution of the House.
Mr. Humefelt quite surprised at the tone in which the hon. Baronet spoke, as there was nothing whatever to call for it in what had been said by the hon. member for Waterford. His own opinion was, that no public business could possibly be well done after twelve o'clock, and, therefore, if an adjournment was moved, he should certainly support the proposition.
Mr. W. Duncombemust protest against the manner in which this discussion was provoked by the hon. member for Waterford, at an hour appointed for the reception of petitions. If the hon. Member desired to put the question to the test, his proper course was, to bring it before the House in a regular manner.
Mr. Huntsaid, he had no idea that he, and others who agreed with the hon. member for Waterford upon this subject, should be thus lectured with regard to it. He had no idea that Standing Orders should be kept up if they were not observed. If that were not done, it would be better to get rid of them altogether. The complaint about long speeches came with a very bad grace from the hon. Alderman. He (Mr. Hunt) was present the other night when the hon. Alderman made a long speech which drove nearly all the Members out of the House. He certainly would support the motion for an adjournment at twelve o'clock.
Mr. Warburtonsuggested, that the further discussion of this question should be postponed.
Petitions to be printed.

On the Motion of Lord Althorp, that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,

APOLOGY FOR THE USE OF AN IMPROPER TERM.
Sir J. Grahamsaid: although, Sir, there is this pressure of public business, I feel myself unwillingly obliged to intrude upon you a subject of a private nature; and perhaps the House, when they come to learn the reason of my doing so, will be inclined to pardon me. I am the more reluctant to do so, as the subject has reference to a preceding debate. It will be in the recollection of hon. Members, that on a former evening, in the heat of

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an extempore address to the House, I used the word "demagogue." That word has given offence to an hon. Member, and he has sent to ask me whether that word was meant to apply to him. Consistently with truth I am able to state, that at the moment when I used that expression, I did not use it with reference to the hon. member for Clare, he being the individual who has asked me to state whether the expression was meant to apply to him. At the moment I used the expression, he was sitting behind me, I was not aware that he was in the House at the time, and I can conscientiously state, that I did not know he was present, and did not intend the word to apply to him. So far, Sir, I have stated in compliance with the wish of a noble friend. I will now, on my own part, say a few words with reference to another hon. Member; I did use the expression complained of with reference to another hon. Member, whom I now see present, and I now wish to say, that when I recollect he was not then present— when I recollect the declaration he once made —a declaration that ought to make him more cautious in his language towards others, and to make others more cautious in their language towards him, and more especially when I recollect the situation in which that hon. Member now stands with regard to the Government, I frankly and fairly confess, that I am sorry I used that expression.
Mr. H. Davisreminded the House that immediately after the expression had been used, the right hon. Baronet declared that he had used it in the heat of debate, and not with reference to the hon. member for Clare, who then complained of it.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that he was most unexpectedly and unnecessarily adverted to by the right hon. Baronet. He did not think that what the right hon. Baronet had said respecting him ought to have been said under the semblance and guise of an apology to another. He utterly denied that he had ever made use of any language, either there or elsewhere, except such as a Christian might have uttered, or a man might be prepared to vindicate, in the sincerity of truth. The right hon. Baronet had alluded to the situation in which he (Mr. O'Connell) stood in reference to the Government. He would take good care, however, to be early in his attendance in this House, with a view of having that situation
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clearly understood, for a great deal of misconception prevailed with regard to it. He thought it most extraordinary that the right hon. Baronet, when giving an explanation to an hon. Member of that House, should allude to him in so uncalled for a manner.
Here the matter closed.

COTTON TRADE.
Lord Althorpsaid, he took that opportunity of making a few observations which were probably expected from him. He wished to state the arrangement which he had now made with regard to the Cotton Trade. On a former night he had been asked a question on this subject, and had declined to answer the question until he had seen the deputation from Manchester. That deputation had been in town—he had had a communication from the members of it, and he believed he had settled the matter to their satisfaction. The mode in which he now proposed to regulate the trade was, to take off immediately the tax on Printed Cottons, and to convert the ad valorem duty of six per cent to five-eighths of a penny on cotton now imported, and not to allow the drawback. That would not have the effect of making any alteration with regard to East-India cottons. He ought to add, that he intended to allow the drawback on exportation for the space of three months.

WEST INDIES.
The Marquis of Chandossaid, he found that, after repeated intimations had been given that relief should be afforded to the suffering interests of the West Indies, no relief was now to be afforded them. The distress in the West Indies was exceedingly great, and it arose principally from the tax on sugar—a tax which, he reminded the Government, was a war tax, and ought to have been abolished at the end of the war, but which had still been continued, and was not now proposed to be taken off. He asked his Majesty's Ministers, in the arrangement they were about to make, that they would consider seriously the situation of the West-India colonies; and one of the principal objects of his Motion was, to press that subject on their notice. Their financial plan was not now arranged—their Budget was not finally made up—and he called upon the right hon. member for Dover to support, on this occasion, the opinions he had held

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before he became a member of the Government. He would refer to the statement made last year by the right hon. Member, on a debate on this subject. The right hon. Member then stated, that he was most anxious to protect the West-India interest. That protection, however, had not been afforded, and was not now even promised. He called on the House to consider what must be the feelings of men to whom such protection had been promised, but who were not happy enough to obtain its advantages. The measure which had been introduced for their benefit had been subsequently withdrawn. He repeated, that the financial arrangements were incomplete, and the Budget not fully settled. He, called, therefore, on the Government to go along with him; and especially he called on the right hon. the President of the Board of Control, to support him in the application he now made, on behalf of the West-India colonies, to the serious attention of the Government. That right hon. Member had recorded his opinion in favour of the West Indies, and could not now retract it. The right hon. Gentleman had stated, very truly, that he saw a strong necessity for interfering on behalf of the colonies, and he had advised that practical relief should be afforded to them. The right hon. Gentleman had voted in a division of 144 on a Motion which he (the Marquis of Chandos) had the honour of submitting to the House. He trusted that something beneficial for the West-India proprietor would be brought forward. The financial statement of the noble Lord had indeed been materially changed, but, as the Government appeared to be at sea with respect to finance, he hoped that some-plan which would afford relief to the West-India interest would be now submitted. He was exceedingly desirous that relief should be extended to those who were suffering. He not only asked relief for the distresses of the West-India planters, but also for the people of England. With respect to the colonies, he did not agree with those hon. Members who wanted to dissolve the union between them and this country. If any such proposition were submitted to this House, he should be one of the last men to give it his support. He knew the value of the colonies too well ever to desire such a thing: and he hoped the House would attend to their interests, for their interests were also the interests of this country.
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It was to the naval power of the country that we were indebted for the colonies; and, as he had before said, he hoped they would be scrupulously preserved. He would implore his Majesty's Ministers not to disregard the petitions which were presented to that House in favour of the West-India proprietor, nor disregard the petitions which came from all parts of the empire on the subject of slavery. That was a question which merited their attention, and he hoped to sec it speedily settled. He stood up in that House to advocate the cause of the West-India planter, as a free and independent Member; and he begged to call for the support of Ministers, on the score of principle, of consistency, and of justice, to the resolution which he would now read. The noble Lord then concluded with moving the following resolution as an amendment to Lord Althorp's motion. "That the distressed condition of the West-India planters demands the serious and immediate consideration of this House, with a view to their relief."
Mr. Keith Douglasseconded the Motion. He expressed his regret at the course which his Majesty's Ministers had thought proper to pursue, and his disappointment at hearing the financial arrangements of the Government. He felt convinced, when he heard them, that no relief was intended for our long-suffering colonies though that had been promised over and over again. Now, however, it was found out, that legislation could give no relief, but that was a position which could not be maintained. He knew that the Board of Trade had investigated the subject with the greatest care, but he was satisfied that the papers for which he had moved and which were then on the tables of the House would warrant a different conclusion from that come to by the right hon. Gentlemen. Those papers showed, at least, that unless some relief was speedily given to the colonies, they must be completely ruined, and his noble friend and himself pressed that consideration on the House, because they were satisfied that it was in the power of the House to afford relief. He had on a former occasion expressed his disapprobation of some of the new taxes proposed, and he wished then to add, that the alteration of the tax on timber would ruin our North American colonies, and injure our shipping interest, without conferring any correspondent ad-

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vantage on the country. Those taxes had excited so much disapprobation that the noble Lord would necessarily be obliged to remodel his Budget, and in doing that he hoped still, that the West-India interests might be taken into consideration. The difficulties of the West-India planters were caused by legislation and they looked to legislation, to repair the evils it had inflicted. The Legislature had always restricted the Colonial trade to British shipping and the Mother country. All the produce of those colonies was required to be sent to England in British ships, and all their supplies were imported only from Britain; out of that legislation onerous engagements had arisen, trade was made costly, the restrictions were a burthen on all the parties and their profits were sacrificed to the public benefit. On that ground, the West Indians called for relief and they saw that it might be granted to them by lowering or removing the war-duty on sugar. The legislature too had thought proper to prohibit the removal of slaves from one colony to the other, and the consequence was, that more were found in one place than were wanted, while in another island, there was a want of hands. In the island of Cuba and at the Brazils, in consequence of the continued importation of Slaves, sugar could be grown at a much lower rate than in our colonies. In them a slave cost 100 l. while one could be imported at an expense of 40 l. The imported slaves were in general unencumbered effective labourers, while in our colonies, where they were bred a great part of the population was ineffective. Thus the English planter had only thirty-four effective labourers out of 100 slaves, while the Brazilian planter had fifty five. Our colonies producing more sugars than could supply our own markets, the surplus was sent to the continent, where it met this cheap-grown sugar of Cuba, and the Brazils, and would sell for no more than it. The price of Sugar had been beat down from 64 s. per cwt. to 24 s. giving, after deducting the charge for conveyance to Europe, 15 s. 6d. to cover the expense of cultivation, which it had been proved over and over again was not sufficient. The country was hardly consistent in its wishes to abolish slavery in our colonies while it was anxious to benefit by the low price of slave-grown sugar. It professed great anxiety to abolish slavery, but refused all assistance to those who were engaged in
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the unequal contest of producing sugar without the importation of fresh slaves. If the present system were allowed to continue, the competition between the slave-importing countries and our colonies must end in the ruin of the hitter. When that was the case those people who had been so anxious to abolish slavery, would find that they must draw all their supplies from countries that still carried on the Slave-trade, and over which they had not the smallest control. By not assisting the English planter, then, they would perpetuate that crime which the public voice had loudly condemned, and which the country had been at great expense to put down. He hoped, therefore, that his Majesty's Government would reconsider the subject, and for the interests of humanity, in compliance with the public voice, and in contemplation of the colonial and shipping interests of the country, give relief and encouragement to the planters of our own colonies, where slavery was in the progress of melioration, and where the slave-trade had been happily extinguished.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonexpressed his surprise, that the noble Lord should have introduced a debate upon the sugar-duties, and on the colonies, upon a proposition for the House to go into a Committee of Supply—a motion which, if acceded to, would have the effect of retarding the Supply. There was no disposition on the part of Government to disregard the interests of the West-India planters—no disposition to prevent an inquiry into the subject, and his hon. friend had only done justice to the Board to which he belonged, when he admitted, that it had carefully investigated the subject. What he complained of was, that the noble Lord had not brought forward his Motion in a more regular way, instead of taking the present opportunity of submitting it to the House on the present occasion, when a motion was before the House to go into a Committee of Supply. He (Mr. P. Thomson) would not follow his hon. friend who had seconded the Amendment, through all his statements; but he should be doing himself injustice if he did not enter somewhat at large into the subject, with a view of showing that the mode pursued by Government was a true and sound course. If the Government did not consent to a reduction of duty upon West-India produce, it was because they considered the revenue could not spare it; and because neither

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of the proposals submitted to the Government by the West-India planters was calculated to attain the object in view, or was consistent with the public welfare. The noble Lord had but done him justice in stating what he had done. He would accept with pleasure the words which had been quoted. He was anxious and desirous that the West-India interest should be protected. He would go farther, and say, that he was not only desirous of seeing the West-India proprietor protected, but that all his Majesty's subjects, whether in this country or the colonies, should be protected and assisted. The only difference between the noble Lord and" him was, that he would never consent to sacrifice the interests of one party to those of another, or seek to promote the prosperity of particular branches of our trade at the expense of the general prosperity. The noble Lord must have made a slight mistake when he supposed that he had voted in support of the noble Lord's motion on the occasion alluded to. Whoever voted with the noble Lord on that occasion, he certainly was not one, though he had divided in favour of the motion of his right hon. friend (Mr. C. Grant). He should have no objection to see the duty taken off sugar, provided it could be done without injury to the revenue; but there were other taxes which pressed more heavily upon the community, and these he would rather sec removed. With respect to the proposed financial measures, it was impossible, in the state of the revenue, to reduce the duty on sugar. His noble friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had, in his financial statement, calculated the result of his propositions, leaving only a very small surplus. He would put it to the noble Lord—he would put it to the people of England—whether more had not been done for the general benefit by the Government, in removing the tax on seaborne coal, and the tax on candles, than would be effected by the repeal of the duty on sugar? He differed from the noble Lord with respect to the ground upon which the duty on sugar ought to be removed. He (Mr. P. Thomson) had never advocated the principle of the reduction of that duty on the ground of its being beneficial to the manufacturer or grower, but because it pressed heavily on the consumer. He would maintain, that if the duties were taken off sugar, it would not benefit the West-India proprietors, as it would not
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give them a monopoly, and until they had a monopoly, no reduction could be of any benefit to them. There was one-fourth more sugar exported from the West-Indies than was wanted in this country; and as long as that was the case, the price of sugar here would be regulated by the price which could be obtained for the surplus abroad. In addition to the nominal but not real monopoly of our market, which, in fact, they already enjoyed, they must get, therefore, a monopoly of the continental markets, or a power of keeping the cheap sugars of Cuba or the Brazils out of them, before any reduction of duty could afford them a great relief. He believed that lowering the duty would tend, in a great measure, to stimulate the growth of the cheap sugars, at least till the country could consume all the surplus of the West Indies. He was quite ready to admit, therefore, that a reduction of duty would benefit the consumer, but he denied, that it would confer any immediate benefit on the planter. Looking, indeed, at the interest of the consumer, then he was still prepared to recommend a reduction of the duty on sugar whenever that could be effected; but he did not think, that the case was so urgent that the revenue ought to be sacrificed, and the financial resources of the country exposed to hazard, by complying with the wishes of the West-India planters. His hon. friend, in the statement which was laid before the Board of Trade, urged the propriety of the Government giving a bounty of 5s. 3d. per cwt. on all sugar imported into this country from the West Indies. The planters urged this on the ground of the restrictions which the mother-country imposed on the trade of the colonies. He was happy to see, indeed, that the West-India interest had not brought forward that claim on that occasion: they had not submitted it to Parliament, and it was no part of the proposition then before the House. Still he might be allowed to state, that if conceded, it would have amounted to the moderate sum of 1,200,000 l. taken from the pockets of the people, and tranferred to those of the West-India planters. His hon. friend seemed to think it an evil and a hardship, that the colonists were obliged to send all their produce to England in British ships; but the fact was, that the freight of them was so much cheaper than any other, that from 30 to 40,000 tons of Brazilian produce was annually sent to

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Europe by our shipping. His hon. friend seemed also to think, that the West-Indians sustained a great loss by being obliged to take all their manufactures from this country: he calculated, in fact, that our manufactures were 15 per cent clearer than others, and that, by this regulation, the West Indies were taxed to the amount of 370,000 l. for the benefit of the English manufacturer. But was it not a notorious fact, that the greater part of the manufactured articles required in the West Indies could be obtained much cheaper from Britain than from any other part of the world. Those very articles were taken from this country to the colonies of other countries, to which our fiscal regulations did not extend. Another grievance the planters complained of was, that they were obliged to draw their supplies of lumber from our North American colonies; that he admitted was an evil, and the Bill before the House, for regulating the intercourse between the colonies, would remedy it in part, though not to the extent of giving the whole supply of our colonies into the hands of the United States, which he thought would neither be consistent with political wisdom nor advantageous to the West-India islands. Another point was, the admission of our refined sugar into foreign countries, which our Government could not compel, and he knew no means by which this could be effected, except by the planters refining it themselves, and sending it as cheap to Europe as the sugar of the Brazils. It had been said, too, that the West Indies might be relieved by the admission of rum at a lower rate of duty; but if the Government were to attempt that, it would be opposed by all the country gentlemen of the empire. Scotland and Ireland would be up in arms, and he could conceive no way by which the opposition could be overcome, unless the eloquent advocates of the West-India planters could persuade the distillers, and farmers, and maltsters, and landowners of England, that their interests would not be injured by admitting rum at a lower rate of duty than at present. The great source, undoubtedly, of the ruin of our colonies was the continuation of the slave-trade by foreign countries. To that point, accordingly, the Government had directed its most anxious attention, being satisfied that the pecuniary interests of the West Indies, as well as the interests of humanity, required
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that this abominable traffic should be put down. The Government had, in fact, been unceasing in its exertions to attain that object, and till that was attained, he saw no hope of effectual relief to the West-India planter. He regretted very much that his hon. friend should have referred to the Budget with feelings of asperity, and should have roused the hostility of other interests by the manner in which his hon. friend had preferred the claims of the West-Indians to the general interests of the community. It was such unwise demands which created throughout the community, a feeling of animosity to our West-Indian fellow-subjects, and which caused that general cry to which his hon. friend had referred as pervading the country at the period of the general election; he was sorry his hon. friend had thought it necessary to say any thing on that point, for he was far from having instigated or joined in that cry, though he must acknowledge that he was disposed to sympathise with those who were its objects; and he would beg leave to remind the hon. Member, that it was in the power of the people of England to come to the bar of that House, and to ask how long the Resolutions of the House of Commons of 1822 were to remain a dead letter on the Statute-book; and how long those recommendations, which emanated from the Government, were to be disregarded, and its advice unheeded? He bitterly regretted that any occasion had offered for the present discussion to spring up; and he denied that the mode of relief suggested would be of any benefit to the West-India interests. He protested against the inference which the noble Lord had drawn from the conduct of the Government with regard to the present Motion. He felt disposed to grant every relief possible to the West-India interests, and he hoped the noble Lord would believe that such was his desire; and, if he was convinced of that, he trusted that the noble Lord would think that the subject had much better be left in the hands of Government, or else under the consideration of the House of Commons, than that he should stop the Supplies by passing to a division on a motion of this nature.
Mr. Hart Davisobserved, that the interests of the West Indies were of the highest importance to this country, for the ships and commerce of Great Britain were the natural effects of her colonies, and had

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been fostered, and almost created, by them. He was disposed to believe, that the reduction of the duties on sugar and rum would not have the results that were anticipated by the West-India proprietors, but that the amount taken off, instead of going wholly into their pockets, would go part to the consumers, and part only to them. He thought, however, the planters had great claims on the consideration of his Majesty's Ministers, but, at the same time, these claims were a subject of general consideration, which ought to be deferred, and the House ought to be satisfied that the future judgment of the Ministers would be exercised as to the relief which it would be most proper to afford. He begged, before he sat down, to call the attention of the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to a. subject which was of very great importance to those interested in it— namely, the growth of tobacco in Ireland. The noble Lord must be aware of the intentions of Government on this subject, and he would, therefore, be able to afford him the necessary information. He wished to know, whether it was the noble Lord's intention to bring forward his bill for prohibiting the cultivation of tobacco in Ireland? It was of importance that the growers there should be aware of the intentions of Government to let the cultivation of that plant go on there: and it was also of importance to those concerned in the importation of foreign tobacco to know whether they would have to contend with the growers of Irish tobacco as well as with the smuggler, particularly as they had been disappointed in their expectations of a reduction in the duty. He wished also to ask another question of the noble Lord; and that was, whether it was intended by Government to persist in levying the increased duty on Canada timber, or whether it was the intention to modify the original proposition, as brought forward by the noble Lord,—or, lastly, whether, as was very generally wished, the noble Lord would abandon his intention of altering the duty on Canadian timber altogether? With regard to the Motion now before the House, he was of opinion that the distress among the West-India planters was at present at such a height, that in another year the remedy would come too late.
Mr. Robinsonhoped that the noble Lord would not hastily answer the question of the hon. member for Bristol, with regard to the duties on timber, because, as the
794
noble Lord well knew, the persons who were most interested in that part of the noble Lord's proposition were about to submit certain considerations to the Government. As to the subject immediately under discussion, the noble Lord who had brought it forward had established that great distress existed in our West-Indian colonies; and, indeed, that had not been denied by the Government. He strongly objected to a topic so irritating as that of slavery being mixed up with a question purely commercial, like the present. The chief ground of complaint of the West-Indian proprietors was, as it appeared to him, that there had been an infraction on the part of the executive Government, of a treaty that had been entered into between the Government and the West-Indian proprietors. The terms of that agreement were, that the duties imposed were to be considered as a war-tax, and that they should not be continued in time of peace. Nevertheless, the duties had not been altered; and this he considered a just and strong ground of complaint. He admitted that the price of sugar in our market was regulated by the price abroad, but he contended, that the price there would be raised by such a decrease of duty as would extend the consumption of this country. With respect to what the right hon. Member had said of British vessels bringing the produce of the Brazils to Europe, that was not because the freight by them was less than that by other vessels, but be-cause they carried out cargoes there, and must of necessity have some to bring back. He did not mean to accuse the Government of an anti-colonial feeling; but he was sure that some of the measures which the Government had lately proposed would be considered in the colonies as indicative of such a feeling. However, he had risen chiefly for the purpose of begging the noble Lord not to answer hastily the question which had been put to him with respect to the timber duties, because he was sure that the representations which would be made to the Government on that subject would not be without effect.
Lord Althorpsaid, he was perfectly ready to admit that the distress which existed in the West-India interest demanded serious attention, and he should not have the slightest objection to agree to the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the whole case. He objected to the Motion now before the House, be-

795
cause, if met as such a motion ought to be met, it would be impossible that they could go into a Committee of Supply. He was bound to say, that neither the noble Lord nor the seconder of the Motion had in the least degree exaggerated the distress complained of; and he begged to assure the House, that there was no man more ready than he was, to alleviate that distress, if he saw the means of doing so. But with all the consideration which he had been able to give to the subject, and after the most attentive examination of all the circumstances connected with it by the Board of Trade, he must say, that none of the propositions which had been brought forward as remedies, had appeared to the Government capable of being adopted, consistently with the general interests of the country. He had been misunderstood with regard to what he had said on a former occasion, with respect to the sugar duties. He had said, that he did not think that the reduction of the duty on sugar would confer any great benefit on the planter, and he still adhered to that opinion. It was not necessary for him on that occasion to enter into his reasons for that opinion, especially since his right hon. friend near him had already stated them to the House. Allow him, however, to say, that, in looking at the general taxation of the country, it did not appear to him that the duty on sugar ought to be the first tax to be taken off. It had generally been said in that House to any Gentleman who proposed that a certain tax should be taken off,—"You must propose a substitute." Yet, Gentlemen had come forward that evening, who, after objecting to the taxes which he proposed to substitute for taxes which he had taken off, gravely asked him to take off another tax, namely, the sugar duty. Now, surely this was not reasonable. He would put it to every hon. Gentleman who heard him,—he would appeal even to the West-Indian proprietors themselves,—whether it was not much more to the advantage of the country that the duty should be taken off coals and candles than off sugar. Well, then, after taking off those duties— after having proposed taxes in lieu of them, and after the latter had been objected to, could any thing be more unreasonable than to ask him to add to his remissions the remission of the duty on sugar? As to the question which had been put to him with regard to the timber duties,—this, he admitted, was not the proper time for dis-
796
cussing his propositions with regard to them. As, however, when that subject came under discussion, he should be prepared to show, that his proposition would not be injurious to Canada, he had no hesitation in stating now, in answer to the hon. member for Bristol, that it was not his intention to make the slightest alteration in the proposed timber duties. Reverting to the Motion of the noble Lord, he had only to observe, that although he felt it necessary to resist that Motion, yet, if the noble Lord thought, that in a Committee any means of reconciling the conflicting interests could be devised, he certainly should not object to the appointment of such a Committee. He was quite sure, that to reduce the duty on rum would militate against many important interests of this country; and he was convinced, that if he had proposed such a measure to the House, he should have proposed it in vain. He would not detain the House further, but before he sat down he would answer a question which had been put to him by an hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. H. Davis), respecting the prohibition of the growth of tobacco in Ireland. He knew that measure to be greatly objected to in Ireland, as particularly prejudicial to some interests in that country. But he meant to accompany the prohibition with a reduction of the duty on imported tobacco —a measure, by which he believed that Ireland would be more generally benefited, than by the permission to grow tobacco. However, as he had not been able to carry into effect his intention to reduce the duty, he felt also bound to abandon the prohibition.
Mr. Humeconcurred entirely with the noble Lord opposite (Lord Althorp) in thinking that an inquiry ought to be instituted into the condition of those colonies, and the most effectual means of remedying the distress under which they laboured. For his part, he believed that they would derive more benefit than injury from the letting into the English market more freely the sugar of the East Indies, because, if that would effect nothing more for them, it would at least remove a great part of the ill-will which was undoubtedly borne towards the West-India interests. He would, however, recommend the noble Lord to withdraw his Resolution.
Mr. C. Grantsaid, that he had so often trespassed on the House upon the subject referred to in the noble Lord's Motion,

797
that he should spare both the House and himself the trouble of going into the discussion on the present occasion. His own opinions were well known to be in accordance with the Resolution proposed by the noble Lord; but he must, however, object to its being now brought forward, on an occasion and in a manner in which it could not fail to obstruct the proceedings of the Committee of Supply. He agreed with his noble friend in saying, that if the noble Marquis should move for a Committee of Inquiry, they (the Ministers) would be glad to adopt any measures calculated to relieve the distresses of the West Indies, without prejudice to other interests.
Mr. Bernalassured his noble friend (Lord Althorp) that it never was his intention to join in any measure of a factious tendency or hostile to the Government. If such had been the object of the noble mover, he (Mr. Bernal) would not have supported him. He would never sacrifice his public duty to his private interest. But the subject of the noble Marquis's Resolution forced itself imperiously upon the consideration of the House and the Government. He did not blame the present Administration more than any former one; but he would say that there had been manifested the most neglectful ignorance of the West-Indian and other colonial interests. The West-Indians had been neglected because they were weak; they had been oppressed on account of their imbecility. He thought that it would have been better, had the right hon. Gentleman near him not alluded to the question of negro slavery. He would ask his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer did he think that he (Mr. Bernal) would join in an endeavour to retard the proceedings of the Government? Nor had the noble Marquis asked alone for the reduction of the duty on sugar, but that the whole case of colonial distress should be taken into the consideration of the House. But the purpose of his noble friend would not be attained by a Committee of Inquiry, in which there would be no more than a repetition of stale evidence which had been already laid before the Board of Trade. He was sorry to find that they had come at last to this, that they should hear the right hon. Gentleman, who had so long advocated the principle that reduction of taxation was ancillary to an increase of consumption, and tended ultimately to increase the productiveness
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of the tax, now say that the reduction of a tax upon sugar would not relieve the producer, and would injure the Exchequer. He believed, that the interests of the West Indians and of the inhabitants of the other parts of the empire might be mutually promoted by a modification of the duties on sugar and rum and by allowing the use of sugar in our distilleries. Sugar had become a necessary to the poor man, and his comfort would be much promoted by that reduction of duty which would promote the prosperity of our colonies. He put it to the whole Government to say, why, if they admitted the distress was not exaggerated, they could think it fitting in them to postpone one moment, the consideration and application of a remedy.
Mr. C. Grantsaid, that far from having any intention to impute factious or hostile motives to his hon. friend who last addressed the House, he had meant to say, that he would himself support the motion, except that it would at present interfere with the progress of the Committee of Supply; but it had just now been suggested to him that the resolution would not have that effect. Since he had heard that, he was prepared to agree with the noble Marquis, but for the objectionable manner in which his motion had been introduced. He, however, had heard from the highest authority that the resolution would not interfere with the supplies, and therefore he would vote with the noble Marquis.
Mr. Warburtonrejoiced to have heard the West-India interest advocated upon principles with which the House could agree. He was glad to hear the Member for Rochester not contending for the monopoly of the supply of sugar, but requiring an increase of consumption as the remedy of the producer's distress. He suggested that the resolution should be prepared in a Committee, and that the noble Lord should afterwards introduce a bill founded thereupon.
Sir James Grahamwas sorry, that he could not go the same way that his right hon. friend the President of the Board of Control would go, if the noble marquis should divide the House. He knew that the distress existed as described by the noble Marquis and he regretted it. But the fact had not escaped the observation of the Government. The state of the country and of the colonies had been passed in review before them; and it was impossible that facts, so striking as those

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mentioned by the noble mover of the resolution, and by the hon. Gentleman below the gangway, should have escaped the notice of his Majesty's Ministers. He was ready to admit that the motion of the noble marquis might not obstruct the Committee of Supply; but, as he himself had often made a Motion of the same sort, he knew very well that its success would be understood to convey an indirect, but intelligible censure upon his Majesty's Ministers. It was quite clear to him, that if the Ministers agreed to the motion, before to-morrow morning it would be supposed throughout the country that the House had implied an opinion that the Ministers had not done their duty. But they, having taken into consideration the state of the country, had brought forward those measures which to them seemed most conducive to the general relief. It was not to be forgotten that they had done everything that was possible for the relief of the country, consistently with the maintenance of the civil government and of the national faith. In making reductions, it had appeared to them that the taxes of which the reduction would give the most extensive relief, and in the direction in which it was most required, were those upon coals and candles. Was the public faith of this country to be sustained or not? But how was it to be sustained, if gentlemen opposed the imposition of all new taxes, and came forward night after night to propose the reduction of successive taxes? Gentlemen, therefore, might talk of maintaining the public faith, and of preserving the public honour in spotless purity; but he would ask, how was that to be done if his Majesty's Ministers were called on to take off tax after tax without supplying their places by others more easily borne? The real question at issue was, had the Ministers done rightly or not? In considering what taxes ought to be reduced, they conceived that those on coals and candles were the most fit to be repealed. If the House thought that the Government had been right, it would sustain the Ministry, and reject the Motion of the noble Marquis. He did not deny the existence or the extent of the distress. They admitted both; and they said, that they would take the earliest opportunity to relieve it. He could not say that such an opportunity might occur in the present Session; but if not, he hoped it would take place in the next. His hon. friend
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had said, that if a Committee were proposed he should vote for it. But for what purpose should such a Committee be appointed? The fact of the distress was ascertained already. It was not denied. The Government had fully considered it with a view to devise the means of its alleviation, and they had, consequently, asserted, that they could not relieve it by the removal of taxes consistently with a due regard to the maintenance of the civil government and of the national honour. They would not hold out a delusive hope that they should be able to give relief in the way in which it was desired for the West-India interest, in the present Session. It therefore remained for the House to say whether it would assent to the Resolution of the noble Lord, or support the Ministry as the case at present stood? He did not wish to put the matter to the House otherwise than in a straight-forward, intelligible manner. He was sure he spoke the sense of his colleagues when he said that they did not wish to hold office longer than they possessed the confidence of the House and of the country. It gave him great pain to differ from his right hon. friend, Mr. C. Grant, for no man held him in more respect, but he had a duty to perform which had higher claims on him than personal friendship. He would, therefore, throw himself upon the House. He hoped that, though he might have argued feebly, he had at least expressed his sentiments plainly and fairly.
Sir R. Peelsaid, that, on the present question, he could not take into consideration the probable effect which the decision of the House might have upon the relative situation of political parties. In the present state of the country, he had much higher objects to regard; and he was bound to be governed by them in giving his vote. He concurred with those who lamented the distress of the West Indies, and he considered the interests of the mother country to be involved in those of the colonies. He deeply regretted that any irritating topic had been introduced, and that they could not discuss questions merely fiscal without being threatened with the voice of the people of England. He was astonished that a right hon. Gentleman connected with a financial department should attempt to influence the House in the consideration of a. financial question, by referring to the condition of the slaves. He would assert, that the

801
moral and physical condition of the slaves would most effectually be improved by promoting the welfare of the planters. The true way to raise the condition of the slave was to restore prosperity to the West-Indian colonies. But on the present occasion he must be governed in his course by feelings higher than party or political prejudices. He agreed, that the West Indians required relief; and he trusted that the noble Lord would be able to give encouragement to the hopes of the planters—that the duties on sugar would be reduced in the next year. But, in the present state of the country, the noble Lord having pledged himself to the reduction of the duties on coals and candles, and no satisfactory explanation of the taxes that were to be imposed, that he had heard, had yet been given, he could not, with due regard to the paramount duty of supporting the public faith, concur in the taking off any other taxes. He should be sorry also to give any vote which would interfere with the progress of granting the supplies. He could not vote for the Resolution, because it might encourage hopes which could not at present be realized. He regretted that the right hon. Gentleman opposite, who was so aware of the necessity of supporting public credit, had not kept as attentive an eye to that necessity when he supported the tax upon transfers, and when equitable adjustment was talked of on a former occasion. For the sake of that credit, he should vote against the Resolution, without regard to any influence it might have upon the state of par-ties. At the same time, he would advise his noble friend net to accept the offer of a committee. The responsibility of attending to the colonial interests was last year left to the Administration; and the neglect of them since had not been occasioned by ignorance or denial of the distress, but by the inability of the Government to devise means of relieving it, consistently with other interests. He did not, however, think that the reduction of the tax upon sugar would afford all the desired relief. The right hon. Baronet had said, that the question before the House was really a party question, and that its decision would determine the continuance of the present Ministry. If he (Sir R. Peel) viewed it in that light, he should think it a sufficient reason for the House to reject the motion; as it ought not to entertain on light grounds a ques-
802
tion involving such results. But, in the present state of the country especially, they ought not to call on Ministers to pledge themselves to reductions of taxation which would endanger the sufficiency of the public revenue to the support of the public faith. He concluded by recommending his noble friend to withdraw his motion.
Mr. Sykesfully admitted the distress of the West-India interest but as he saw no means of giving it relief, he agreed with the right hon. Baronet that the motion ought to be withdrawn.
Mr. Huntobserved, that the mere duty was so small, that the relinquishment of it could not lead to any breach of national faith; but, at the same time, he thought it a fit subject for inquiry. He conceived that, on the present occasion, he should best discharge his duty by supporting his Majesty's Government. In taking off the burthens which pressed upon sea-borne coals, on candles, and lightening the tax on newspapers, Ministers had conferred obligations upon the public, giving them light, heat, and knowledge; and therefore he should, for the present, at least, give them his support. As to the Motion of the noble Lord, it was so exceedingly indefinite, that he hoped no liberal Member of that House would give it. his support; or, rather that no liberal Member of that House would withdraw his support from his Majesty's Government. If they were not so near the first of March, there might be some difficulty in the matter; but at the present crisis, he hoped the noble Lord would not be supported.
The Marquis of Chandos The Marquis of Chandos, in yielding just then to the wish of the House, begged it to be understood, that he was resolved, at some future time, to follow up his present Amendment, when he might hope for more unanimity in the House than there then was.
Amendment withdrawn.
On the original question being put, that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,
An hon. Member wished to know from the noble Lord opposite, if the report was well founded, that a quantity of arms had been removed from the stores in the Tower, for the use of the French government.
Lord Althorpreplied, that the French government had contracted with certain Birmingham manufacturers for a consider-

803
able quantity of arms; but the time granted for the preparation of them was so short, that the manufacturers applied to the Government of this country, requesting a temporary supply from the Tower, which were to be replaced as quickly as arms could be manufactured in Birmingham. To that extent these supplies were afforded to the French government, but immediately to the contractors in Birmingham. Recently a further demand was made upon his Majesty's Government for a large number; but that had not been acceded to, and was merely under the consideration of the Ministers.
Sir Henry Fanewished to know whether the noble Lord implied that the arrangement referred to had been made by the late Board of Ordnance?
Lord Althorpsaid, No, no.
Sir George Clerkwished that the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would state to the House the aggregate amount of the Estimates for the current year. It was his opinion that, in the present state of the country, he ought rather to increase than to diminish the estimated surplus, for it did not appear from what quarter relief was to come.
Lord Althorpdid not at that moment precisely remember the amount of the whole of the estimates as stated by him on a former evening; but, as well as he recollected, it was 46,885,000 l. It was well known that last year's estimated surplus of 300,000 l. had been underrated, for the beer-duties alone made it rise to an amount far beyond that sum; and he was sure the House would agree with him, that some of the reductions which he proposed could not be altogether unattended with success, and that his estimated surplus would, like that of his predecessor, be increased.
Mr. Goulburnunderstood his hon. friend to express a wish to know what the estimates were, as separated from the expenses of the public Debt, that he might have the means of comparing them with the estimates of former years. As for his own views on the subject, he was quite convinced that the noble Lord opposite would find it absolutely necessary to impose other taxes beyond those which he had announced, or else give up some of his reductions.
Mr. Briscoeasked, if there was to be such an increase of troops, what was to become of the principle of non-inter-
804
ference? In his opinion the yeomanry, the constabulary force, and the militia were the legitimate and constitutional power to which the Government ought to look; and as to taxation, he professed himself utterly unable to comprehend how that reduction could be brought about without a reduction of expenditure.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House re solved itself into Committee of Supply.
Mr. C. W. Wynnrose to move the first Resolution; in doing which, and in bringing under the consideration of the Committee the Army Estimates for the present year, he regretted that, it being the first time that duty had devolved on him, that he should find himself under the necessity of proposing an increase of 6878 men instead of A diminution. That increase, however, was not founded upon any opinion on the part of his Majesty's Government that any armed intervention would be necessary. But when he looked at the state of England at the time the Government were called on to determine the amount of men requisite for the service of the current year, and also, when he looked at the state of Ireland, he could not but think that the House would agree with him, that the proposed increase did not exceed what the necessities of the country required. He was sure the House would see, that when the present Ministers were called to the direction of affairs, they were bound to take every possible precaution for the protection of the loyal and well-disposed portion of the community. He felt that he should not discharge his duty to the House, nor to his colleagues, if he did not, in the first instance, call attention to this fact, that the proposed augmentation did by no means involve increased patronage, owing mainly, he was bound to say, to the excellent arrangement introduced by his noble friend near him, when Secretary at War, by which facilities were afforded for the increasing the number of recruits, by lowering the standard. It had been suggested that a better mode would be, to embody the veteran battalions. On the most mature consideration, the Ministers had arrived at the conclusion, that not only the veteran battalions would be less efficient, but eventually more expensive. It should be recollected, also, that most of the veteran battalions were recruited under Mr. Wyndham's Act; that they would, therefore, be

805
entitled to increased pensions for every month they served. It was also to be recollected, that the half-pay list would be materially affected, by carrying such a project into effect, to say nothing; of the inconveniences which would be attendant upon the number of wives and children belonging to the veterans. He wished it to be understood, that the proposed increase of the army was to take place, by the addition of men to the companies, which might at any time be reduced. As to the precise matter then to be brought under the consideration of the Committee, it was confined to the fast eight votes, the ninth, relating solely to the Indian army, involved no increase of expense. The increased expense on the first eight votes was 199,966 l.— there was an apparent increase of 210,000 l.; but. deductions which were to be made from that, left it at the sum he had mentioned. With respect to the Volunteer and Yeomanry force, he certainly regretted the reduction which it had undergone in 1827, nor was he disposed to measure its utility simply by its service, in putting down actual disturbance, but also by the effect, which the knowledge that such a force could be immediately collected, and was at the command of persons of property and consideration, produced towards preventing and checking a disposition to riot. There would be then an expense of 136,000 l. for the additional land forces, and nearly 72,000 l. for the Volunteer and Yeomanry corps; but it was to be observed, that this was not to be an annual expense; and as for the sum of 50,000 l., stated in the Estimates, it would be spread over a period of three years, in the shape of allowances. The right hon. Gentleman complimented the late Secretary at War (Sir H. Hardinge), upon the beneficial alterations he had introduced, upon which it would be the less necessary for him to enter, as his right hon. friend, the First Lord of the Admiralty, had said all that the occasion required. He concluded by moving, "That it is the opinion of the Committee, that the Land Forces for the service of the United Kingdom, for the year ensuing, be 88,496 men, exclusive of the Regiments employed on the territory of the East-India Company."
Colonel Daviessaid, that it was his intention to oppose the vote, and to propose that the grant should be taken for three months, for the purpose of referring
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the Estimates to a Select Committee, with a view to ascertain what reductions upon them could be effected, after duly considering the situation of the country, both positively and in its relations to the Continent. He felt convinced that the force now proposed was much larger than the country required; and that a saving of 100,000 l. at least might easily be effected. It was to his no little surprise that he had received an intimation that his Resolution was to be opposed by His Majesty's Ministers; for, when he had made a similar motion upon the Army Estimates of last year, he had been supported by those who now filled the Treasury benches, and not less than ninety-three Members had voted with him. He felt the greatest confidence in the integrity of the noble Lord opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), and if he were Prime Minister, he should be confident that he would support the Motion; but, unfortunately, the noble Lord was not the Prime Minister; he had only under his charge a great and important department, and he (Colonel Davies) did not feel sufficient confidence in the nobleman who was Prime Minister, for him to give up his opinion, and therefore he would take the liberty of always judging for himself. In looking at these estimates, he would begin with the year 1821, which might be called the annus mirabilis of extravagance and discussion on these matters. In that year, the noble Lord had been chained to his seat by the observations on the Opposition side of the House, being pecked at by the vultures there like another Prometheus. In that year the number of troops was 81,106, so that the present number was an increase upon that of 6,936, and the charge was about three millions; by which it would appear, that the increase of the charge now amounted to 119,000 l.: and yet that estimate was denounced at the time as the most wicked and abominable that had ever been heard of. In the year 1822 the number of troops were 71,500, being a diminution of 16,500 when compared with the present year, while the charge at present was 536,000 l. more than it had been then. He would, however, now come to the present year, in which, though he gave the Ministry some credit for the decrease, he must give them still greater credit for the increase; for it appeared, that the total increase might, in round numbers, be estimated at 200,000 l. In the first place, he must object most

807
strenuously to the establishment of the Depot Company, as now instituted, for he thought that great reduction might be made in it without impairing the efficiency of the service in the slightest degree. The charge under that head was nearly 400,000 l. Now, how did this arise? It was expedient that the supernumeraries and staff, as compared with the rank and file, should be as small as possible. But in this establishment, the contrary was exactly the case, for the amount of the supernumeraries and staff was exactly double what it need be. The total amount of the commissioned and non-commissioned officers was upwards of 11,000, while, in fact, they were wholly unfit for anything but to act as a constabulary force, established in the Isle of Wight and other places, where they were utterly useless. Besides this, the system might be called a modern invention, for, till after the war, no such thing had been heard of. There had been recruiting parties indeed; but the charge on recruiting had increased in spite of the depots; 105,342 l. was the total charge of the recruiting service this year; and the charge of the depots was 450,000 l.; so that the country had to pay 550,000 l. for the mere expense of recruiting; and, taking it that 10,000 men were raised in the year, that would be a charge of 55 l. per man. Was not, then, this a fit subject for investigation by a Committee? He thought so, and he had no doubt that on this point alone there might be effected a reduction of 300,000 l. or 400,000 l. Another point to which he wished to call the attention of the Committee was, the garrisoning of the troops. In his opinion colonial troops ought to be raised in the colonies where they were to serve, instead of sending the men out there; the consequence of the present system was, that there were frequently 3,000 troops at sea; during which time, of course, they were performing no service whatever. The principle in this country appeared to be, as soon as we got possession of a colony, to see how many jobs we could make of it, while the object of other countries was, to make their colonies support themselves, or even contribute to the mother-country. The Government establishments in the colonies generally were on a shameful scale. In Lower Canada, for instance, the pay and emoluments of the Lieutenant-governor amounted to between 9,000 l. and 10,000 l. a-year.
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This was a rate of remuneration totally uncalled for, and extravagant to a ridiculous degree. He would ask, what was the class of persons from whom these colonial governors were selected? They were generally naval or military officers, and no man would pretend that the Government could not find plenty of them, men of conduct and character, who would be very glad to go out and till such situations for 2,000 l. or 3,000 l. a-year. There was no necessity to support them in state, and the condition they were kept in was totally useless to the colonies. The Governor of Ceylon had been receiving 10,000 l. a year for salary, besides an allowance of 3,500 l. a year on another score. Let them compare the expense of the British army with that of Foreign armies, and the Committee would be astonished. The charge of our Army and Ordnance amounted to six millions (exclusive of the Dead Weight), for which sum 94,000 or 96,000 men were supported. The French army, under the Bourbons, which, by the speech of M. Lafitte, appeared now to be considered as on much too expensive a scale, consisted of 250,000 men, who were supported at an expense of 5,200,000 l.; and in Prussia, where the whole revenue of the country did not amount to eight millions, an army of 180,000 men was supported. There was one principle which, in his opinion, might be adopted, effecting a great saving. He meant by the adoption of some sort of yeomanry arrangement—not a national guard, that should appoint its own officers and employ its time in presenting petitions to the king—but a corps that should have its officers appointed by the Crown, and whose whole movements should be under the influence of the Crown. It was by arming those who had property, and were devoted to the institutions of the country, against those who had no property, and had no regard for those institutions, that true security would be obtained. The present distress of the country was undeniable; and though he should be sorry to do anything hostile to the present Government, no personal feeling could allow him to vote what was uncalled for by the country, and he must, therefore, refuse the sanction of so humble a name as his own to such a measure. He could assure the Ministers, that any proposition of Reform would be an act of self-immolation, unless they were prepared to alter their course in this respect;

809
for it would be impossible, under that Reform, for any Ministry to hold office for two months, unless they could make up their minds to real economy and retrenchment. He should, therefore, move, as an Amendment, that the Supply for the Army should only be voted from the 1st of January to the 1st of April, in order that a Committee might be appointed to inquire into the expenditure.
Mr. Beaumontthought, that it was of no use for the hon. and gallant Member to say, that he wished to see the country in a better condition if he would not help to place it there. The hon. and gallant Member had asked what there was in the state of the country now which called for additional troops; but he need not look far for an answer, for there was an hon. and learned Gentleman sitting near him, who had said, that if he raised his right hand, he could put the people in a state of rebellion. [A murmur in the House, during which Mr. O'Connell made some observations which did not reach strangers.] If he had used too strong an expression, he was sorry for it; but the hon. and learned Member had been told before then, that his speeches, which began with peace, ended with sedition. That was his (Mr. Beaumont's) opinion also, and that was one of the reasons why the Army Estimates were obliged to be of so large an amount. It was not long since the Special Commissions had terminated; and the state of France and of Russia still called for the most serious attention, so that he could not understand why the hon. and gallant Member should have been at a loss for the motives that had induced the Government to increase the number of troops.
Mr. O'Connellwould not have trespassed on the time of the Committee, had it not been for the extraordinary attack in the extraordinary speech which they had just heard. The hon. Gentleman had commenced with an attack on the gallant Officer who had preceded him, and had then proceeded to show his perfect knowledge of the state of the country; after which, he had bestowed his meed of disapprobation on him (Mr. O'Connell). He, however, begged to invite the hon. Gentleman to continue that disapprobation, for, after the specimen he had given of his judgment and intellect, he thought that that must be much preferable to his applause. The hon. Gentleman had said, that the state of Ireland required an aug-
810
mentation of the army—that the state of England required an augmentation—that the state of France required an augmentation—and that, above all, the state of Russia required an augmentation of the army. In order to fight all these Powers there was to be an increase to our establishment of 7,000 men; this was, indeed, a most extraordinary labour of a mountain bringing forth a mouse. The hon. Member had, however, thought proper to attribute rebellious principles to him (Mr. O'Connell), but there was no language, consistent with parliamentary usage, sufficiently strong for him to declare his denial of the foul aspersion—his rejection of the atrocious calumny. The hon. Member had talked of his loyalty; "but," said Mr. O'Connell, "I practise loyalty." [Cheers.] He knew there would always be a ready cheer when any thing was said against him (Mr. O'Connell), for he belonged to the most afflicted country in the world, oppressed by famine, which was once said to be periodical, and he sought to make her sufferings known, and to cause them to be redressed. Why was it in a state of famine? it was not sterile; on the contrary, it was the most productive country on the face of the earth, and yet its population were starving. He sought to relieve his country from this state of wretchedness, and if he were to enter into the particulars of his conduct, he could easily repudiate the calumnies which were thrown out by the hon. Member. It was easy to throw out such aspersions, but he would treat them—he would not say with contempt—but with the indifference they deserved. He was also accused of sedition; but if he had been guilty of it, why had he not been prosecuted? He had spoken no speech in Ireland at which there were not Reporters from two Government papers, and when he perceived they had any difficulty in procuring accommodation, he took care that it should be provided for them. He would ask, then, what it was that induced the hon. Member to introduce those remarks upon him? Was it that he desired to court popularity in that House? He was, of course, aware, that any attack upon him (Mr. O'Connell) was a sure clap-trap in that House, and he therefore resolved to make the attack, in order to bring down a cheer. This attack was the second which had been made upon him that evening, for the only reason, he believed, because those who did not choose to assail others,

811
thought they might safely assail him. He had not said one single word to call for these attacks; but he would pass it over, however, with the mere observation, that if any man exceeded him in affection for the land of his birth, he would allow him, but no other person, to be his calumniator. He felt that he did not deserve the censure which had been cast upon him, and in repelling it, he could assure the House, that he did so without being actuated by one spark of indignation.
Colonel Sibthorpregretted, that it was deemed necessary to increase the military establishment of the country, but as the measure was decided upon, he thought the cheapest mode of doing so would be, by calling out the pensioners, by which step, if necessary, 18,000 men might be added to the military force of the kingdom.
Lord Althorpsaid, he regretted the necessity of adding to the military force, but he would not then argue for the propriety of the measure, feeling satisfied that it was not necessary for him to do so. With respect to the rest of the estimates, he was willing to admit, that there were several points in which reductions might be made, but how was it possible for his right hon. friend to do so when just coming into office without the benefit of experience? It would be imprudent for him to have gone too far before he had had time to make the necessary inquiries, but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could assure the House that the strictest inquiry should be made into every item of expenditure, and every office should be reduced that might appear on examination to be useless. The hon. and gallant Colonel (Davies) knew, that the vote had never been taken for so short a period; indeed, there could be no advantage in taking it for so short a period. The other hon. and gallant Colonel (Sibthorp) had stated, that the better mode of increasing the army would be, by calling out the pensioners; but as every pensioner would be entitled to additional pay for his additional services, and as, in that case, also additional officers would become requisite, he thought it would prove to be by no means the most economical plan. The families of those pensioners would also be thrown upon the public, which expense would not be incurred if young men were enlisted for the service. Upon the whole, he thought the House would show very little
812
confidence in the Government if they did not, according to the usual practice, grant the vote for the whole year.
Sir Henry Hardingethought the plan proposed by Ministers for increasing the army much the cheapest, and when completed, he did not believe that it would then exceed the usual peace establishment. He thought that Ministers did themselves much credit by resorting to the old constitutional force of the country, —the yeomanry. As the estimate for the militia appeared to be 133,000 l., he wished to ask, what numbers were to be called out? He was also desirous of knowing if the Irish militia was to be called out, for if so, the estimate was too low, by the sum of at least 50,000 l. He had looked through the estimates, and, as regarded the staff, he could find only two reductions, namely, the reduction of the office of Treasurer of the Military Asylum, and that of the Treasurer of the Military College. Of both of these reductions he disapproved. A great many important duties attached to the office of Treasurer of the Military Asylum, which had been exceedingly well performed by Messrs. Cox and Greenwood, the latter gentleman being the holder of the office at the very moderate salary of 300 l. per annum, or about one and a half per cent on the disbursements. The duties of the Treasurer of the Military College were nearly the same as those of the other office. There had, however, formerly been a Paymaster at the College, but that office having been abolished, an increase of duty necessarily devolved upon the Treasurer. Government had selected the Messrs. Collier for the office, at a salary of 300 l. a year, which had since been reduced to 200 l., being about one per cent on the disbursements; and he begged to ask the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. C. W. Wynn), if he could get his private affairs managed for a less sum. He could find no other reductions in the staff but those, and now that the right hon. Gentleman had had the opportunity of examining into the estimates, he would ask him, if he could support those accusations of gross abuses of patronage, which had been supposed to have existence in that department. He was happy that the right hon. Gentleman had not endangered the army by any crude or party experiment in reduction. He believed that many reductions might still be made, not suddenly,

813
however, but only as time and occasion offered. He thought the internal state of the country a sufficient cause for the increase of our military establishment; but it was at all events required by the grave and important aspect which affairs wore upon the continent of Europe. When he read the speech of the French Minister, he confessed there were some passages in it which excited in his mind considerable apprehension. When he perceived that the estimate for the year for the service of the State of France was no less than 47,000,000 l. sterling, and when he perceived that the expenses for the army alone, exclusive of the National Guards, &c, amounted to no less than 9,000,000 l. —when he perceived that France was, in fact, one great camp—he could not avoid entertaining some misgivings. He had no doubt, however, that he should receive explanation of these matters at a proper period; and he should, therefore, only say, that the army of this country was never in a higher state of discipline than at the present time; and, though he hoped the time might be far distant when the peace of Europe would be disturbed, yet, should it unhappily arrive, we had an army as well prepared as any which this country ever had, to maintain the national honour and safety.
Mr. S. Ricesaid, it was unfair to compare the present Estimate with those which had been made in times and under circumstances in every respect different. The reduction of the offices of Treasurer of the Military College, and Treasurer of the Military Asylum, was to be justified on the ground that the duties could be as well performed by an ordinary Clerk.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that he appeared in the very unusual character of a member of the Government defending the reduction of useless offices. It was, he said, the intention to call out the Irish Militia, and the expense of doing so would be about 50,000 l., because the clothing had not been renewed for the last eleven or twelve years, and was, therefore, literally worn to rags, while the arms and accoutrements were equally useless. Ireland was in such a condition that it required the most vigilant superintendence, and Government, in increasing the military establishment, thought it right to refer to the old constitutional force of the country. He had no hesitation in saying, that with Government it was a choice of evils, and
814
it was compelled to take the step of increasing the forces, or of running the risk of a serious disturbance. He felt confident that no one would attribute to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, who was so attached to the country, a desire once more to excite religious animosity. It was true that a great proportion of the Yeomanry of the North of Ireland were Protestants; but still it must be self-evident that Lord Anglesey could have no party feeling to gratify in calling them forth, for he was only anxious for the peace of the country, which, he had no doubt, would be restored with the aid of the old constitutional force of the kingdom.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, it appeared that the Yeomanry force of Ireland had, by the account given by the right hon. Gentleman, been, for the last eight or ten years, a most heavy and useless expense. The sum of 18,000 l. or 19,000 l. per year had been paid for the maintenance of that corps during that period; and yet, when it came to be inspected, it was found, according to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, to be totally unfit for the public service. When the different Yeomanry corps were in activity they were not efficient, they were divided into such unequal proportions.—For instance, in the province of Ulster, where there were no Whiteboy disturbances, and where, indeed, there were very few local outrages of any kind, there were 8,000 or 9,000 men; while in Connaught, there were about 700; and in Munster, 1,500; It was one of the misfortunes of Ireland, that she was subjected to the disadvantage of having some young Nobles sent over to servo their apprenticeships as Statesmen. He looked upon the hon. Member who had just sat down, and whom he had formerly designated by a name which he would not repeat as an apprentice Statesman. Ireland was the place to which all such were sent to serve their apprenticeship to the art of Government, and then they came over to this country to fill offices of higher rank in the State. He looked upon the noble Lord as if he were one of those apprentices, and as being really wholly and totally unacquainted with the wants and interests of Ireland. Surely he ought to be aware that the Yeomanry of the North of Ireland were all Orangemen, and that in all places where they were on duty, local dissensions or bloodshed ensued. The hon. Member

815
might have known, that it was the practice of these Orangemen to attend fairs, and other assemblages of the people, leaving their arms behind them at a short distance from the place. They then picked a quarrel, sent for their arras, and generally shot several persons before the riot could be quelled. Probably Lord Anglesey might not be acquainted with this mode of proceeding. It was notorious too, that the Irish Yeomanry corps, after the Rebellion, formed a nucleus of insurrection and riot. The number of men they had put to death was unknown, but it was very great. Consisting of Orangemen, they had no consideration for the Catholics, and would not associate with them. He would tell him that the better plan would be, to increase the army, for the regular soldiers were submissive to the law. The King's troops had no party-spirit to gratify, and the consequence was, that the people always looked to them for protection. He would not discuss the question whether it was necessary to increase the military force, but he implored the noble Lord opposite (Althorp), that he would not suffer himself to be led away by those who paid an hour's visit to Ireland, and who said, that no religious animosity existed at the very moment they were about to take steps the most calculated to revive it. As the increase was to take place, he should feel it his duty to vote for the increase of the King's troops, rather than have the Militia again called out, believing the latter to be the most successful plan that could be devised for reviving religious distinctions and dissensions. He could not help looking on the announcement of that evening, as being one of doleful omen to Ireland.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that whatever might be the feelings of the House upon the subject, he felt certain that the speech of the hon. member for Waterford would justify a much larger increase than what was now proposed; and, if any discussion should hereafter take place relative to the culling out of the Militia, they had at all events the opinion of the hon. member for Waterford, that it would be more desirable to increase the King's troops. The hon. Member took occasion to tell him that he had spoken of him elsewhere in terms which he declined to repeat.
Mr. O'Connell.Mr. O'Connell.—Not as applied to the hon. Member personally [cries of yes, yes.] I admit I, in the course of a speech, intro-
816
duced a humorous story, in which I said, that the persons who generally filled the office now held by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Stanley), resembled shave-beggars.
Mr. Stanleysaid, he had read reports of speeches delivered by the hon. member for Waterford elsewhere, which convinced him that the hon. Member was usually aware of his audience when he spoke; for no two persons could be more different from each other than the hon. member for Waterford, speaking in that House, and the same hon. Member elsewhere, or rather somebody who bore his name, for he could scarcely believe it to be the same person, when "courting the most sweet voices of the rabble." Whatever might be his conduct elsewhere, however, he appeared and conducted himself in that House as the hon. member for Waterford, and as such, therefore, he should treat him, dismissing from his mind all former transactions—and without condescending to notice the "shave-beggar abuse" which he might have cast upon him elsewhere. The Government of Ireland could rely with confidence on the returning good sense of the people of that country, and with equal confidence on the zeal and discretion of the Yeomanry.
Lord F. L. Gowersupported the original Resolution. He thought the whole subject had been so repeatedly discussed, that it was a waste of time and words then to enter further into it.
Mr. Humesaid, it was ridiculous to call the proposed army a peace establishment, when there was an increase of 10,000 men beyond what was usual for some years back. If Russia was disposed to go to war, and if France was turned into a camp, what had England to fear from that?— The people of this country had neither any wish to interfere, nor any interest in interfering with them.—By the present system, the country was maintaining one officer to every six men. He was filled with wonder, when he heard the people on every side calling for reduction, and when he heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer say, that he could not take off one tax, without laying on another—to think that out of 15,000,000 l., which was the Estimate for the Army, Navy, and Ordnance, means could not be found to make some deductions. Surely 3,000,000 l. might easily be reduced from this enormous sum. We had no less than 15,000

817
officers on full-pay, and 10,000 on half-pay, so that, in fact, we had nearly an army of officers. He was convinced from experience, that the calling out of the Yeomanry was an injudicious scheme, and if additional troops were necessary, he thought the more economical plan would be to increase the regular army than to call out the Militia. The Committee had been led away from the real question which ought to occupy its consideration— namely, whether that House was to sanction an Estimate which would entail such an enormous expense upon the country, at a time when the national resources were so ill calculated to bear it. If this expenditure were encouraged, the country ought not to be surprised at the difficulties and embarrassments by which it would find itself surrounded. Before the French war, the whole of the expense for the entire service of the State did not exceed 15,000,000 l., and now the country was called upon to vote such a disproportionate sum merely for the Army, Navy, and Ordnance, that it really ought not to submit to the demand. Since 1817 no less a sum than 220,000,000 l. sterling, had been expended for the support of the military establishment during a time of profound peace. Was not this quite sufficient to account for the distresses of the country? The amount thus lavished was one-fourth part of the National Debt. Now, if that money had been applied as wisely and as judiciously as the national funds were administered in America, we might be in somewhat a similar situation to that country, which had now a prospect of being free from debt in another year. He had thought that, with the removal of Lord Castlereagh, we had taken leave of the Continent, and were in future to confine ourselves to the protection of our own shore, without interfering in the policy, or the affairs of other States. Recollecting that the design of opening the Scheldt had led to a war which involved us in an expense of 750,000,000 l., he was extremely averse to engaging in a similar enterprise, which seemed to be relied upon as the great merit of the present Government. He regretted that a right hon. Gentleman at that side of the House should have had an opportunity of saying that the statement made by the noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, reminded him of the good old
818
times of the Castlereagh system—of those times when the Holy Alliance dictated Constitutions to the States of Europe, and when millions of men were driven in herds, like cattle, and placed under whatever form of government Lord Castlereagh thought proper to prescribe. Such was the description of policy which had led to the present condition of our affairs. Would the House of Commons sanction the present extravagant and inordinate Estimates for such reasons as they had heard advanced? If they did, let no man in the country hope to have his Assessed Taxes taken off, or his burthens relieved. 15,000,000 l. sterling for the Army, Navy, and Ordnance! What would be the effect of this enormous Estimate, which would certainly incur the disapprobation and censure of the whole country? It would enable the Ministers to interfere still further in the affairs of other countries, and to involve this kingdom in increased difficulties—[the noise in the House at this time was very great.] He saw that the House was against him— that what he was saying did not meet with their concurrence; but even that should not prevent him from taking the sense of the House, if he felt that his duty required it. But he thought he was called upon to make some allowance for the situation in which his Majesty's Government was placed, and to hope that those Gentlemen would see what the interests of the country required, and would feel the necessity of retracing their steps, and making some atonement for their deviation from that which was strictly the right path, by the nature of the Reform which they meant to propose. That Reform would give the country the means of redress, if it were effectual; and in the mean time he might content himself with having done his duty by protesting against the extravagance of these Estimates.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, that the good humour with which the hon. member for Middlesex urged his objections to the propositions of his Majesty's Government was gratifying, particularly amidst the difficulties with which their proceedings were necessarily attended. The hon. Member had said, that he was surprised to find both sides of the House supporting these Estimates. Now, he confessed it did not excite any surprise in his mind, that in times when the tranquility of the country was disturbed,

819
and when additional means were required to preserve good order, and to give effect to the course of the laws—he felt no surprise that both sides of the House should concur in such measures as were necessary for accomplishing those objects. He was perfectly persuaded, on the one hand, that this was not the first time that it had so happened, under such circumstances;—so, on the other hand, he was convinced that it would not be the last, if occasion offered, to require a similar degree of unanimity for the protection of the interests of the State. The hon. member for Middlesex found fault with the expression which he (Lord Palmerston) had used on a former evening, that the augmentation of force proposed in the present instance was merely with a view to complete the peace establishment. When he used that expression, he merely meant that all that was now proposed was to render perfect the establishment which had existed in the preceding year, and, in fact, for three years past, and, therefore, the present might certainly be described as a peace establishment, as compared with such an augmentation as might be required if any exigency obliged the Government to call upon the country to prepare for warlike operations. The hon. Gentleman had again adverted to the topics of foreign policy, to which he had applied himself on a former night. He (Lord Palmerston) should not be led by the hon. Gentleman's observations to go into any explanation on those points, but would simply assure the hon. Member and the House, that whenever the time should arrive when an explanation could with propriety be given of the course which had been pursued in those transactions, it would not be found that England had been dictating to other States in any matters appertaining to their internal constitutions. It was preposterous to suppose, that the addition of 6,000 or 7,000 men was proposed with a view of intermeddling in the internal affairs of other countries, His right hon. friend, the Secretary at War, had in his opening observations on these Estimates, stated fully the grounds on which that addition was proposed, and explained, that it was not with a view to anything connected with our foreign relations with other countries, but to the preservation of our internal tranquility. He had no doubt that, if the time should ever arrive when his Majesty's Government
820
should find it necessary to call upon Parliament to maintain the interests or the character and the dignity of the country, the means would be readily provided; but, as he had said, the present augmentation was proposed, not with a view to our external relations, but to the internal circumstances of the country. He would add only one observation upon the system of external policy which the hon. member for Middlesex recommended. The hon. Gentleman said, we ought to withdraw from all concern with the Continent, to keep within our natural boundaries; and that, having disbanded our army, and dismantled our fleet, we might rely upon our insular position, and rest secure from any foreign invasion. Now, his (Lord Palmerston's) opinion was, that although our position was insular, yet we should not be the less safe from foreign aggression from the circumstance of our having a good army in readiness to defend us, and our shores guarded by a respectable navy.
Mr. Faneconcurred in the proposed augmentation, but expressed his hope that a reduction would be effected whenever it could be done with safety.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, he could never agree that the state of military force on the Continent was a ground for augmenting the military force of this country. It might be a sufficient reason for increasing the navy, but it was time enough for England to arm her military force, when her honour or necessity required it. It was not necessary to keep up a large military establishment for that purpose. Whenever the state of the country should admit of a reduction of the establishment now proposed, he should certainly be quite prepared, on the part of his Majesty's Government, to recommend it; but he did not think that in the course of the ensuing month, we should be better able to decide upon that point than at present. All he could say was, that he should call upon the House to reduce the force, at the earliest moment it could be done consistently with the preservation of tranquility and order. He was anxious to answer some observations which had been made at the other side of the House. He was not aware that he had, either in the course of his observations this evening, or at any other period, complained of the estimates of the late Secretary at War. He would state again what he had stated before—viz., that he thought the country

821
was under great obligations to that right hon. Gentleman, for the steady and practical economy which he had introduced into his department; but still he hoped that further reductions were practicable. Several had, in fact, taken place; such as the reduction of the salary of the governor of Ceylon from 10.000 l. to 8,000 l. per year, and many more were in contemplation, particularly in the colonies, the detail of which could not yet be made public.
Sir H. Hardingesaid, in explanation, that as the late Government had been accused of not having done enough in the way of retrenchment, he had thought it fair to ask what reduction the present Government had made in these large Estimates?
Mr. C. Bullerwas not satisfied with the reasons assigned for the proposed augmentation, and he thought that in such times of distress and difficulty, nothing but some pressing danger should have induced the Ministers to propose an augmentation of the military force.
Mr. Littletonsaid, that, in his opinion, the late Government were entitled to thanks for the assiduous and diligent efforts which they had applied to the work of reduction; and he was also grateful to the present Government for having made this addition to the force at so small an expense. He must say, that he had never been in any company where a great tribute of praise was not paid to his right hon. friend, the late Secretary at War, for the manner in which he had administered the affairs of that department while under his control. He (Mr. Littleton) was not afraid of his constituents knowing that he was in favour of a small augmentation of the force. Seeing the state of affairs on the Continent, he thought the Government was not departing from its principle, in making a small increase of the defences of the country.
Mr. Huntsaid, the last hon. Member had praised both the late Ministry and the present Ministry, but he feared that he could praise neither. The present Ministry had promised a great deal in the way of retrenchment, and now they came forward proposing an augmentation of expenditure. They proposed a reduction of some 300 l. on the one hand, and on the other hand, including the Yeomanry, and other parts of the additional force, an increase of 300,000 l. or 500,000 l. The effect of these pleasures would be, to place them in such
822
a situation with the country as would give them reason to be very much dissatisfied with the result. One hon. Member said, that the force was to be increased on account of the disturbed state of the country, while another said, that it was owing to the agitated state of the Continent. In God's name, he would ask, why increase the army from 81,000 to 88,000, and augment the navy by 3,000 men to put down disturbances in the country? And if it were done on account of the aspect of affairs on the Continent, he would say, that the measure was quite inadequate. He therefore implored the Government, for the sake of the people of this country—for the sake of the suffering constituents of the hon. Member for Staffordshire, who was friendly to this increase of expense, not to add to their burthens. With regard to the conduct of the present Ministers he begged to say a few words. If he understood the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) right, on Friday night last, the right hon. Baronet, in a tone of irony, congratulated the present Administration on the subjects of economy and non-intervention. His Majesty's present Ministers, observed the right hon. Baronet, pursued exactly the same course on those two heads as their predecessors. What had Ministers done, he begged to inquire? They had not introduced any economical plans to relieve the country, and they had interfered with other States. If the statements which had got abroad were correct, the five great Powers had been dictating to Belgium as to her future king. After the Belgians had fought for and obtained liberty, their only fault was, that they did not do, what was much better than elect a king—appoint a President, and have a republican form of government at once. A similar fault had been committed by the French people, who fought so bravely the three days of July. The error which the French nation had committed, after losing 8,000 men on those days which he had alluded to, was in not returning to a republican form of government. The hon. member for Windsor (Mr. Stanley) had taunted the hon. member for Waterford (Mr. O'Connell), and said, that he used very different language in that House from what he applied to the Dublin rabble. He (Mr. Hunt) had frequent opportunities of hearing the hon. member for Windsor, when they were candidates at Preston, and he could say, from that experience, that the hon. Gentleman appeared

823
as much pleased with a cheer from the populace as any one. He thought the hon. Secretary for Ireland had betrayed a warmth of temper, when speaking of the hon. member for Waterford, which was not warrantable. He regretted that the hon. Gentleman had done so. He felt assured, however, that the hon. member for Windsor would not taunt him with speaking different language at different places; and in order to put this to the test, if the hon. Member would remind him of any one sentence which he had uttered at Preston, he would repeat it to the House. He begged to say, he would repeat it to the House, whether it was orderly or disorderly—[a laugh, and cries of "Question"]. If hon. Members were tired of the debate—if they wished to go home—when the clock struck twelve (it was then ten minutes to twelve), he would move an adjournment of the House. He was reminded that the clock never struck; but when the hand pointed to twelve he would move an adjournment. The first question before the House was, whether the army establishment should be not only kept up, but actually increased for a year; since which, an amendment had been proposed, to vote the amount now submitted for three months only. He begged to say, that with neither of these propositions did he agree; and he should take the liberty of moving a further amendment, that, instead of 81,000 men being kept up, the number should be reduced to 71,000 men; and, if any hon. Member would second his amendment, he would assuredly divide the House. He had, on one occasion, proceeded to a division, and had a very small number voted with him; but he should not be deterred, on that account, from performing what he considered his duty. On the present occasion, he was anxious to show the people of England to whom they were indebted for voting, for the establishment of the army and navy, 15,000,000 l. a-year. He had been much amused at the laudatory cackle which had passed between the present and the late Secretary of War. The present Secretary complimented the late Secretary, and then, to keep the game a-going, the late Secretary returned the compliment to his successor. It was a singular spectacle to see how Gentlemen, who went from the Opposition to the Ministerial side of the House, changed their opinions with their seats, just as if there had been some atmosphere about the Ministerial benches
824
which rendered such a change inevitable. He had been told, that there was an atmosphere in that House, which, before long, would work a change even upon him. He thought that was a mistake. He did not feel the change at present,—he did not expect that he should feel it, for he carried a little charm about him to prevent him from being contaminated. He would, in conclusion, say, that he had not heard one word from either side of the House that convinced him of the necessity of increasing the standing army. If, indeed, the country was in such a situation that it required 87,000 men for the service of England, it was bad indeed. If the country were in that condition, he would beg leave to ask, who was it that had brought it into that state? Could not the people of England be intrusted with arms? He would say, that they dare not intrust arms in the hands of the people of England. If arms were placed in their hands, there would be a Reform of Parliament within three months. Give them the Vote by Ballot, and the House might trust them with arms, for they would then feel that they had a share in making the laws, and would feel pride in protecting them from violation. Let the House bear in mind in what way the petitions were received. Members came clown with the petitions of the people, day after day, in order to present them, but had no opportunity; and when they were presented, there was such a noise in the House, that the clerk, who read them, could not be heard. The hon. Member concluded by moving an Amendment, that instead of 83,000 men for the Army, the number should be reduced from 81,000 (the present force) to 71,000 men.
The Amendment having been seconded,
Sir Alexander Grantinquired whether the hon. member for Preston intended the proposition to extend to a year, or three months?
Mr. Hunt Mr. Hunt.—For a year.
After the original question, with the two amendments, had been put by the Chairman of the Committee,
Lord Morpethsaid, after the threat held out by the hon. member for Preston, with respect to moving the adjournment of the House, he should observe the limits prescribed of old to Cinderella. In what he should address to the House he should be very brief. He had always, hitherto, supported the principles of economy and Reform;

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and notwithstanding the baneful influence which the hon. member for Preston said pervaded the benches on which he had the honour to sit, he felt that he was not giving a vote at variance with his former principles when he supported the original Motion. It had been described as a singular anomaly, that Ministers, who had obtained office by their economical pledges, should propose to raise the military force of the country from 81,000 to 88,000 men. A gallant Officer opposite had proposed to grant the necessary supply for this force for three months; but had refused to grant it for a longer period. The hon. member for Preston had refused to grant it at all, and had even proposed to reduce the army to 71,000 men. Now, he would put it even to that hon. member himself, whether circumstances might net render it expedient to have our forces so arranged, that at a moment's notice a large body of troops might be conveyed to a place of danger. In a single district, in a single hour, events might take place, through the machinations of turbulent men, which, if not instantly repressed, might occasion an expenditure which years of strict economy would not repair. That danger of this nature had recently existed in the British Islands, no man could deny: that it had now ceased, he believed all men would agree. The hon. member for Middlesex had used something like a taunt against the gentlemen of England, for not coming forward as the people of France had done, and forming themselves into ranks for the defence of their country. God forbid that the gentlemen of this country should act as their neighbours in France had done. Who could view what had so recently passed in that country, without feeling deep regret? Monuments of art had been destroyed, and emblems of religion cast under foot, by a tyrannical mob. The hon. member for Preston thought that the people of France had been guilty of a great fault in not establishing a republic. He (Lord Morpeth) should have thought that no man could have dwelt with pleasure on the recollections of the French republic. He concurred in the vote which had been proposed by the Secretary of War, conceiving the increase of the army to be a means of preserving order at home and peace abroad. He was sorry that such a necessity existed. He entertained the utmost reliance upon the pledges of economy which his Ma-
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jesty's Ministers had given, and he was confident that they believed an additional force to be necessary, otherwise they never would have submitted such a proposition.
Colonel Daviessaid, after what had been stated by the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) as to the examination of some points to which he (Colonel Davies) had called the attention of the Committee, he would withdraw his amendment.
Mr. Huntpersisted in dividing the House on his amendment, when there appeared,—Against it 250; in favour of it 6—Majority 244.
The original Resolution, "That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a sum, not exceeding 2,796,043 l. be granted to his Majesty, to defray the charges and expenses of the Land Forces for the year 1831," agreed to.
The House resumed.

List of the Minority.

Buller, Charles

Warburton, Henry

Hume, Joseph

Wood, John

Mahon, O'Gorman

TELLER.

O'Connell, Daniel

Hunt, Henry