Commons Sitting of 16 February 1831

MINUTES.
Bills brought in. To amend the Act for taking an account of the Population in Ireland (Census Act;. To amend the Irish Election Acts.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HUME, in detail, under separate heads, of the expenditure of 12,000 l., entered amongst the Miscellaneous Payments of 1829, as
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paid out of the Consolidated Fund in Ireland, for forming Tables of names of Parishes in Ireland in that year, and under what authority the same has been paid; also, an account of the sums already paid for that service, and an estimate of how much more will be required to complete the same Tables:—On the Motion of Mr. ELLICE, the quantity of entered Wine remaining on hand on January 1st, 1830 and 1831, and amount of Duty paid on Wine in 1829 and 1830; also, all Local Dues levied on Coals in the different parts of Ireland.
Petitions presented. For a Reform in Parliament, by Mr. HUME, from St. Mary-la-bonne, from St. Pancras, and twelve, from different places in Scotland:—By Sir M. S. STEWART, from Little Dunkeld:—By Colonel ABER-CROMBIE, from the Inhabitants of Alloa:—By Sir JAMES CARMEGIR from the Incorporations of Queen's Ferry and Inverkeithing. By Sir J. NEWPORT, from persons in the City of Waterford, against further Grants to the Kildare-street Society; and from forty Protestants of Waterford, for the Repeal of the Vestry Acts. For a General Fast, by Mr. CURTEIS, from Hastings:—By Mr. LEFROY, from a parish in Dublin:—By Mr. F. BUXTON, from Norwich. Complaining of Distress, and for an Alteration in the Tithe Laws, by Mr. CURTEIS, from certain Agriculturists from Sussex Complaining of Distress, By Mr. MUNDAY, from the Workers of Lead Mines in Leicestershire. By Sir G. MURRAY, from Perth, for the Repeal of the Duty on Printed Calicoes. Against Slavery, by Sir T. ACLAND, from Morley;—By Mr. HUGHES HUGHES, from various bodies of Dissenters. For the Repeal of the Duty on Coals, by Mr. SEVERN from Fowey.

WESTERN PART OF IRELAND.
Mr. Dominick Brownesaid, that he had three Petitions to present from the western part of Ireland, relating to the want of Food in that district; but that, in the thin attendance of Members, he would confine himself to presenting one of them, and would reserve the others for to-morrow. The hon. Gentleman stated, that the distress which existed in that part of Ireland, from the want of employment, and the apprehension of the speedy want of food, was extreme. Whatever might be the cause of that distress, he conceived that it was the duty of his Majesty's Government to take means to prevent the inhabitants from being reduced to absolute starvation. The distress had been greatly increased by the run upon the banks, which had affected, not only the lower, but the middle classes in Galway and Sligo; it having been impossible to get large and good bills discounted on any terms. Along the whole of the coast there had been a complete failure in the potatoe crop. These circumstances, added to the reduction of the duty on barilla, and other causes, had driven the people into a state of the utmost destitution. He had it on the authority, not of the petitioners only, but of the Marquis of Sligo, and other highly respectable individuals, that there was not a month's provision in hand. Unless some interference speedily took place, it was to be feared that the dreadful scenes of 1792

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would be renewed; aggravated by that distress among the higher orders which prevented them from employing' and relieving the lower. The petitioners did not pray for money; all that they required was employment, by which they might obtain the necessaries of life. They were willing to work for 4d. or 6d. per day. He would now present the least important of the three petitions, which was from the inhabitants of Lettermullin, in the county of Galway, engaged in the kelp trade.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Lord Ebringtonpresented a Petition, praying for Parliamentary Reform, agreed to at a public meeting, without a single dissenting voice, and signed by between six and seven thousand freeholders and inhabitants, paying rates and taxes, of the county of Devon. The noble Lord observed, that it was well known that the county of Devon had repeatedly petitioned for Parliamentary Reform, but it was a peculiar feature of the present petition, that among the signatures attached to it were the names of several highly respectable persons, who had never before expressed an opinion in favour of a Reform in Parliament. There would have been more signatures to the petition, had not a number of persons conceived, that, as the question had been at length taken up by the Ministers of the Crown, it was no longer necessary for the people to make their usual exertions; an opinion which, he regarded as erroneous. On one point connected with Parliamentary Reform—he meant the election by ballot—he would not then enter; but he should not do his duty to the House if he did not state, that, that question was making great progress-in the county which he had the honour to represent, and, as he had reason to believe, throughout the whole kingdom. He could not conclude without congratulating his constituents, and the country, that that prayer which they had so often made to the House was now in a fair way of being granted.— He moved that the Petition do he on the Table.
Sir Thomas Aclandseconded the Motion, and bore testimony to the highly respectable character of the petitioners. His noble colleague had said, that the petition was signed by several persons who had never before expressed an opinion in favour of a Reform in Parliament. He himself (Sir T. Acland) had attended the meeting
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from which the petition emanated, for the first time, with sentiments favourable to Reform, and in accordance with those of the petitioners; he was satisfied, however, that the time had now arrived when Parliamentary Reform was highly expedient. He would not go at that moment into the question of Reform, as abundant opportunities would soon offer themselves for the expression of his opinions. Those opinions he had stated at the meeting of the county of Devon, though, perhaps not so strongly as he felt them, and further reflection confirmed him in them. He hoped, however, that the course taken by his Majesty's Government and the House would be marked by caution as well as by firmness, and that the deliberations of Parliament on the subject would exhibit that regard to the ancient and venerable institutions of the country which was perfectly consistent with the reparation of those defects which time had produced in them.

IRELAND.
Lord Killeenpresented Petitions from several parishes in the county of Meath; some against the Tithe System, others against the Vestry Laws. On presenting a petition from another parish, praying for a Repeal of the Union, his Lordship expressed his regret that he could not concur with the petitioners. At the same time, he hoped, and was indeed sure, that his Majesty's Government would seriously turn their attention to relieve the various grievances under which the people of Ireland laboured; and he had no doubt that, before the end of the Session, the people of Ireland would be convinced of that which he (Lord Killeen) never doubted —that Parliament and the people of this country deeply sympathised in their sufferings, and were prepared to exert themselves in their behalf.
Mr. Stanleyperfectly concurred in the sentiment of the noble Lord, that no indifference existed either on the part of his Majesty's Ministers, or on the part of this country, with respect to the condition of Ireland. Without going into questions which might more properly be discussed on future occasions, he would simply state, that the attention of his Majesty's Ministers was now directed to the introduction of such measures as, in their opinion were most calculated to remedy the grievances of which the people of Ireland justly complained.

TITHES.
Mr. Humein presenting petitions from the Owners and Occupiers of Land at Winterburn and Gessing, for a Commutation of Tithes, both numerously and respectably signed, observed, that it was time for the House to attend to the subject, since it excited so much attention out of doors. When the tithes were felt as a grievance in England, it was not to be wondered at that they were regarded by the Irish as a monstrous oppression. In Winterburn, the sum levied for tithes had been raised within a few years from 300 l. to 1000 l. a year. In that parish, the tithes and poor-rates exceeded 16 s. per acre. He was sure, if something were not done to reform the tithe-system, the Church Establishment would fall into general disrepute.
Colonel Tyrrelldeprecated the hon. member for Middlesex entering into such discussions on the presentation of petitions. He should like to see a measure of commutation if it proceeded from any other Member. If it came from the hon. member for Middlesex, he should regard it with mistrust.
Mr. John Campbellhoped, that his Majesty's Ministers would take up the subject of commutation. He took that opportunity of saying, that he could not conceive that there was any difference as far as commutation was concerned between lay and ecclesiastical impropriations.
Sir Robert Ingliswould on that, and every occasion, repeat, that tithes were as much property as any other species of income.
Mr. Benetthad no wish to deprive the Church of any property, but he conceived that a commutation would be advantageous to all parties.
Mr. D. W. Harveywas surprised that any man who was a friend to the Church should contend for tithes. He had a petition to present from a parish of Essex, signed by twenty-four persons, who used, either as owners or tenants, 1,200 acres. The average rack-rent was 20 s. per acre, and they had to pay 8s. an acre to an absent Rector. A Curate attended three parishes, and performed divine service in their parish once in three weeks; was not that enough to disgust these people with the Church of England? That Church took tithes to the amount of 3,000,000 l. a year at least, though he believed they might be estimated at 5,000,000 l. When it was said that these were a sacred spe-
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cies of property, he must reply, that they were given for the payment of religious services, and when not appropriated to that, they ought to cease. On these principles, what claim could the Rector he had before alluded to have on the tithes of a parish he never visited. The present method of paying the clergy was not at all calculated to promote harmony between them and their flocks, and the well-being of the Church itself required that some reformation should speedily take place.
Mr. Nicholson Calvertsuggested, that the subject should be discussed by a formal motion, not in presenting petitions.
Petitions laid on the Table.
Mr. Hume Mr. Hume, in moving that they be printed, declared that he was not an enemy to the Church, but those were who sought to preserve the abuses under which all its virtues and even its utility were totally stifled. Parliament had a right to regulate the affair of the Church, and he hoped that Parliament would exercise that right in appropriating its property so as to adapt it more than at present to promote the public welfare.
Colonel Tyrrellthought, that the remarks made by the hon. member for Middlesex and by the hon. member for Colchester were not conceived in a friendly spirit towards the Church. Before they made their attacks they ought to give notice, so that those interested in defending the Church might be prepared.
Petition to be printed.

EMPLOYMENT OF THE POOR.
Mr. Briscoemoved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the 59th of Geo. 3rd, c. 12., as far as it. relates to the letting and leasing of Land to labourers. The object he had in view was, to repeal that clause of the Act which limited parish overseers to twenty acres as the quantity of land which they were allowed to purchase and let to the poor. The amendment he meant to propose would be, he was convinced, productive of great good.
Mr. Sturges Bourneapproved of the proposed alteration. He happened to know, that the Act had effected great good, and he believed would effect more than at present if the Amendment were carried into effect.
Mr. J. Smithalso supported the Motion. In a village of Sussex, with which he was connected, the greatest benefits had been experienced by acting on such

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a plan. Many persons had accepted small spots of ground on condition of not receiving parish relief. They had all done well, and brought up large families.
Sir J. Shelleywas of opinion, that parishes ought to take a quantity of land, in order to give employment to their own poor; and thus in some measure enable the pauper to contribute to his own support. He, too, knew from experience, that such a plan had been followed by the most beneficial effects.
Mr. Portmanfeared that such a plan would be impracticable with regard to parishes, but private individuals might let out small portions of land to poor men, who would thus be enabled to support themselves without entirely depending on parish assistance, and who would, consequently, raise themselves above the degraded state in which they now were. However, he must say, that rather than see the present system patched up in this manner, he should wish Parliament to repeal most of the Acts on the subject, till they got back to the Act of Elizabeth. This was a subject which his Majesty's Ministers must speedily take into their consideration.
Lord Althorpsaid, his Majesty's Ministers had the question of the Poor-laws now under their consideration, but they found it was a difficult subject on which to come to any satisfactory conclusion. It would be most imprudent to take any ill-advised step on the subject. If the system of partly paying the labourer wages out of the poor-rates could be got rid of, the administration of those laws would be much improved. The proposition of the hon. member for Surrey had his approbation, so far as he understood it.
Mr. Calcraftthought, the true cause of the evil was to be found in a most redundant population. No good could be done till the effect of that evil could be remedied.
Mr. Sadlerdenied, that there was any redundancy of the labouring population, and observed, that the evils of the Poor-laws were to be attributed to very different causes. So long as there were so many thousand acres uncultivated, he could not see how any one could assert that we possessed a redundant population.
Mr. Tennantthought, that by emigration alone was the country to be saved from a dreadful convulsion.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.

REDUCTION OF OFFICES.
On the Motion of Lord Althorp, the Order of the Day was read for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. G. Dawsonasked the noble Lord, what was the amount of salaries saved to the public by the reduction of the 210 offices, which the noble Lord stated that he had abolished? He also wished to know, what was the additional amount of superannuation that would become charged on the revenue by the reduction of these offices; but he was more desirous of receiving an answer to the first of these questions.
Lord Althorpsaid, that he could not give an exact answer to the right hon. Gentleman on either of these questions. He had not yet had an opportunity of accurately ascertaining what would be the amount saved; but he wished to remind the right hon. Gentleman, that when he announced the reduction, he did not announce it as a saving of salaries, so much as a giving up of patronage.
Mr. G. Dawsonthought the information ought to be furnished.
Lord Althorprepeated, that at this moment he could not give the information required. If he were to look at the amount of salaries attached to the places that had been abolished, he might be enabled to make a rough calculation; but that would not give the House a clear idea of the saving; for, in many instances, the superannuation allowance was considerable. The principle, however, on which the Government had acted was this, that all places which were useless, they ought to be abolished at once, without reference to the amount of saving, or to the amount of the superannuation that might be attached to the office.
Mr. Humehoped, that the noble Lord would not fix the amount of superannuation for these abolished offices, till it was known whether some of these persons might not be required to give their services in other offices. He had known in-stances in which offices had been abolished, and superannuations created, and then fresh persons had been appointed to fill vacancies in other offices, instead of those offices being filled by some of the persons whose offices had been abolished. He hoped the noble Lord would not imitate this example.
Lord Althorpsaid, it was the intention of Government, in every possible case, to

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fill up vacancies in offices of efficient service, by the appointment of persons from the redundant offices. He did not take any particular credit for this, because he believed that the practice had been begun by the late Government.

THE IRISH GOVERNMENT AND MR. O'CONNELL.
Mr. Stanleyaddressed the House in the following terms:—I shall avail myself, Mr. Speaker, of this opportunity to give the House more full and explicit information than I was able, on a former day, to give a noble Lord who put a question to me regarding certain proceedings which have recently taken place in Dublin. It will be in the recollection of many Gentlemen, that the trial of Mr. O'Connell and his associates only took place in Dublin on the morning of Saturday last, and that a question was put to me by a noble Lord, on the evening of Monday, as to whether any terms had been entered into with that Gentleman by the Government—whether any compromise had been made with him—and as to whether the law would be permitted to take its course against him, now that he had at length admitted that he had violated it. I appeal to the recollection of the House, whether the terms of which I made use in answering that question were not as follow:—"That no terms whatever had either been offered to, or made with, Mr. O'Connell; that in consequence of the exertions of Mr. O'Connell's friends, Mr. O'Connell had been informed, that he had placed himself and the country in such a situation as rendered it impossible for the Government, consistently with its dignity, to recede from the position which it had taken against him—that Mr. O'Connell must therefore act as he thought most expedient for himself—that he must be the best judge of what his own conduct ought to be—and that it was the unalterable determination of the law-officers in Ireland, to let the law take its course against him." At the time I used those expressions, I had only received a letter containing the information of his trial and of his conviction. I have received this morning a letter from the Attorney General of Ireland, containing a more detailed account of those transactions; and as I am anxious to avoid any misrepresentation, and indeed to disabuse the public mind from any attempt at misrepresentation of those transactions, I will, for the sake
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of corroborating the expressions which I formerly made use of, read the statement made to me by the Attorney General for Ireland, even though it be contained in a private letter. I am willing to read the whole of the letter, if the House require it. It contains nothing of particular importance, and therefore an extract from it will, perhaps, do quite as well. I must, however, promise, by way of explanation of it, one circumstance, which I have no doubt is in the recollection of the House. The House is aware that the original indictment against Mr. O'Connell and his associates consisted of a great variety of counts, of which the first fourteen charged the defendants with having repeatedly held illegal assemblies, in violation of the proclamation of the Lord Lieutenant; and the last sixteen charged them with having conspired together to hold such illegal meetings. To the first fourteen counts Mr. O'Connell demurred—to the last sixteen he put in a plea of Not Guilty. I believe—and if I am wrong in that belief I know that I shall be corrected by some of the learned Gentlemen around me,—I believe that the effect of Mr. O'Connell's demurring to the first fourteen counts, if the point of law were decided against him, would be, that judgment would pass against him without the intervention of a Jury. Mr. O'Connell subsequently appearing not to have so favourable an opinion of the law of his case as he had originally, argued, that he was entitled to withdraw his demurrer against the first fourteen counts, and to plead to them that he was Not Guilty. To this the Court of King's Bench, after some debate, assented, and the trial was fixed, on the application of the Attorney General, who wished the earliest possible day to be appointed for it, on Thursday, the 17th instant. Mr. O'Connell having made two subsequent applications—I do not say for the; mere purpose of delay, though they certainly produced delay,—saying, on the first application, to the officer who was to strike the Jury, that though he had had twenty-four hours' notice of his intention to strike the panel, be had not had one clear day's notice of it, and insisting, on his second application, after the officer had nominated forty-eight jurors, who were afterwards to be reduced to twenty-four, by each party striking out twelve, that he ought to have time to the next day to deliberate on the persons whom he

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should object to and the Sheriff having yielded to both his applications, it became impossible, as a Special Jury must be summoned six clear days previously to the day of trial before a fine for non-attendance could be imposed upon them,—it became impossible, I say, for the Attorney General to bring on the trial on the 17th, the day originally appointed for it. I now come to the Attorney General's own words; and if any Gentleman requires it, I have no objection, though I do not think it material, to read the whole letter. "I therefore on Friday gave him notice, that I would on the next day apply to the Court to fix a later day for the trial than the 17th this led to a verbal message from Mr. O'Connell to me, through the Crown solicitor, to request that I would postpone the trial to the next Term. To this I answered, that any communication to me must be in writing. Accordingly, he wrote to me on Friday evening, and on Saturday morning received a peremptory refusal. It was not difficult to collect from all this, that O'Connell never would encounter a Jury; and, to say the truth, I was, for some days, convinced that he would plead guilty rather than do so. I therefore, on Saturday, spoke to his counsel, and told him, that as to time or terms, none would be granted, but that, as I must have had judgment against O'Connell and his associates had the demurrers been argued on the fourteen counts of the indictment, and as in that case I should most certainly have entered a noli prosequi on the other counts, which were in their nature subsidiary to the others. I was willing to be satisfied with a conviction ensuring me the same extent of advantage that I felt the King's Bench had deprived me of. In ten minutes after I had made this offer it was acceded to, and in half an hour after, made the rule of the Court, Mr. Green and Mr. Perrin having previously appeared for the other traversers. "Such is the statement of the Attorney General for Ireland, and I think that the House will agree with me, that it completely bears me out in the assertion which I made on a former evening, that the Government had entered into no negotiation with Mr. O'Connell; that it had not made any compromise, or even the slightest shadow of any compromise, with Mr. O'Connell; and that it had expressed its unalterable determination to be, that let Mr. O'Connell
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act as he pleased, judgment should be pressed against him. The Crown having thus obtained, "without the slightest compromise, a conviction against Mr. O'Connell and his associates on the first fourteen counts of the indictment, did not think it right to proceed against them on the last sixteen counts, which charged them with a conspiracy. In adopting that course of procedure, the Crown acted upon the lenient principle, adopted by ordinary prosecutors at the ordinary assizes; and I am of opinion, that if such lenity be advisable towards the culprits at ordinary assizes, it is still more advisable and expedient when exhibited towards a political opponent. Indeed, I am sure that if the Crown had persevered in its original intention of going to the Jury on the last sixteen counts of the indictment, it would have given to the transaction an appearance, not of justice, but of persecution. In pursuing the course which it has done, the Crown has treated Mr. O'Connell as it would have treated any other individual—it has vindicated the outraged law; and, by so doing, has inspired the discontented with awe, and the well-affected with confidence. It has procured a verdict against Mr. O'Connell, and it will, undoubtedly, call him up to receive judgment upon it. I only mention these circumstances to prevent it from being said in any quarter, either on this or on the other side of the Channel, that the Government either offered terms to, or made terms with, Mr. O'Connell. I put it to the House, I put it to every man of plain, straight-forward common sense, whether by any quibble it can be said that the written communication between Mr. O'Connell and the Attorney General was offering terms. I have now mentioned all the facts connected with these transactions, and I appeal to the House, whether I am not fully borne out by them in the statement which I originally made to the House,—that not any, the slightest compromise has been made by the Irish Government with Mr. O'Connell, to induce him to plead guilty to the first fourteen counts of the indictment preferred against him.
The Marquis of Chandoswas much obliged to the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, for the information just communicated to the House. It would be satisfactory, not only to that House, but to every honest man in every part of the empire.
The Order of the Day read, and the Committee deferred.

WAYS AND MEANS
On the Motion of Lord Althorp, the House resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means.
Lord Althorpthen moved three Resolutions—"That twelve millions be raised by Exchequer Bills for the service of this year—That two millions, part of the sum now in the Exchequer, or remaining to be received for the year 1830, be applied to the service of the year 1831 That 60,000 l. to be paid into the Exchequer for the expenses of retiring pay and allowances to the India forces, &c. be applied to the service of the year 1831—That any sum paid into the Exchequer before the 5th of April, 1832, in respect of Exchequer Bills issued for carrying on the Public Works for the United Kingdom, should also be so issued and applied."
Resolutions agreed to House resumed.

DUTY OK COTTON.
Lord Althorpmoved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee on the Excise Acts.
Mr. Wilson Pattentook that opportunity of putting a question to the noble Lord. In consequence of what it was supposed the noble Lord had said, in answer to a question from the hon. Alderman opposite, a great panic had arisen among the exporters of cotton manufactures, from the idea that the drawback was to be refused on exportation. That idea had caused many of the Merchants of Liverpool to withdraw their orders, and he now wished to ask the noble Lord, whether it was his intention immediately to alter the law with respect to the drawbacks.
Lord Althorpsaid, that in the answer he had given to the hon. Alderman opposite, he had confined himself to making allowances to the holders of stock for the goods in hand. He would now, however, add, that he had no intention to deprive the parties of the benefit of the drawbacks allowed by law, until all the arrangements he proposed were finally made. Those arrangements could not be completed at once, as it was necessary for him to communicate with the persons interested in the trade; for he repeated what, he had before said, that he considered this tax as a commutation tax.
Mr. Herriesobserved, that the interests
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of all the persons connected with trades likely to be affected by the noble Lord's measures, required him to come to a decision as soon as he could.
Mr. Humehoped the noble Lord would persevere in withdrawing the duty on calicoes, and would not persevere in imposing the duty on, raw cottons. He thought they might save this, and some other duties, if they would reduce the expenses of our military establishment.
Sir J. Grahamobserved, that his Majesty's Ministers were fully convinced of the necessity of coming to a speedy decision, but there was a difficulty in doing this, for the delicacy of the interests in question had prevented his noble friend from obtaining any information from persons connected with the trade, until his measures were publicly announced; for any previous declaration of this nature might have been extremely injurious. Since that announcement, he had been attended by many of the parties interested in this question; and after having received their statements, the Ministers would make up their minds as speedily as possible, and, having fixed their determination, would announce it at once. After all that had been said lately about keeping faith with the public creditor, he wished to take that opportunity of saying, that Ministers would take no step that would place the punctual payment of the public creditor for one moment in doubt. The only remaining point for him to notice was, the recommendation of the hon. member for Middlesex to reduce the military establishments of the country, and by that means to reduce the public expenditure in such a manner as to preserve the promised reductions in taxes. When the Estimates came before the House, the Ministers would be prepared to vindicate the grant which they would have to ask from the House, and he should be deceived if that House was found wanting in acceding to any grant that might be required for the maintenance of the honour and dignity of the country.
Colonel Tyrellwished to put a question to the noble Lord, relating to the repeal of the duty on Candles. He wished to know, whether the determination of Ministers was irrevocable, or whether they would consent to alter their proposition so as to repeal the duty immediately, and not to delay it until the 10th of October. The immediate repeal would be a saving of a

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penny in the pound to the poor. To postpone it would cost the candle manufacturers a considerable sum, and he hoped, therefore, that the noble Lord would be ready to immediately repeal it.
Lord Althorpreplied, that he had had communications with large numbers of persons connected with the trade, who had entreated him not to take off the duty until the 10th of October. These persons had assigned such good reasons in support of their entreaty, that it was his intention to persevere in the course which he had proposed to take.
Mr. Calcraftwas extremely well pleased, that the tax on printed calicoes was to be removed. He knew no tax in the whole circle of taxation that was so extremely obnoxious to him. Perhaps, however, his objection to the tax to be imposed on raw cotton was quite as strong. He believed that it would be easy to find a substitute for the tax on cotton, and he would strongly recommend the noble Lord not to persevere in imposing it. He must also take that opportunity of stating his strong objection to the tax upon Steam-boats. He thought that many preferable objects of taxation might have been found. He certainly should oppose it if it were pressed.
Sir E. Knatchbullmust also express a hope, that the noble Lord would not persevere in that tax. He would merely put it to the noble Lord to consider what a great advantage this tax would give to the steam-boats of foreigners over those of our own country.
Mr. Tennantwould take this opportunity of suggesting to the noble Lord the imprudence of pressing the proposed tax on the export of coals. It would operate, in fact, as a prohibitory duty, and militate considerably against the interests of the coal-owners in South Wales.
Mr. P. Thomsonobserved, that the duty on the export of coals would be lower hereafter than it had been. As to the duty on steam-boats. Ministers would be most happy to avail themselves of the assistance of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Calcraft) in finding a preferable substitute: they only regretted that he had placed himself in a situation which rendered it impossible for them to enjoy the benefit of his great experience.
Mr. Herriesasked, if the proposed duty of 10 s. was not on the long chaldron, and would it not, in fact, be 5s. on the ordinary chaldron?
Mr. P. Thomsonanswered in the affirmative.
Mr. Callaghanwould oppose the tax on cotton, which quoad Ireland was an increase of burthens, and no relief.

TAX ON CANDLES.
The House went into a Committee on the Excise Acts.
Mr. Herriessaid, that he did not rise to oppose the Speaker's leaving the Chair, because he understood that the noble Lord intended, to-night, to confine himself to the Resolutions respecting Coals and Candles. If this were so, he would not detain the House on the present occasion; but he begged it to be understood, that he reserved to himself the right of entering fully into the discussion of the other pans of the noble Lord's Budget.
Lord Althorpdid not suppose that any observations were necessary, to show the utility of abolishing the tax on Candles. It would relieve all those who possessed the raw material of this useful manufacture from the restraints of the Excise laws. Labourers, and small farmers, and other persons so disposed, might, should this tax be abolished, make their own candles without any restriction. The reduction which the abolition of the tax would cause in the price of the article, would be a great benefit to the poor, and he therefore should content himself by moving "That the duties on Candles made in Great Britain, and on Candles made in Ireland, and brought from thence into Great Britain, and on Licenses taken out by makers of Candles in Great Britain and Ireland, and all drawbacks granted and payable on the removal of Candles from Great Britain to Ireland, and on the exportation of Candles to foreign parts, shall cease and determine."
Resolution agreed to, and the House resumed.

COAL DUTIES.
The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Customs Act.
Lord Althorpmoved, "That all duties and drawbacks of Customs payable on Coals, Culm, or Cinders, and on Slates brought or sent from one part of the United Kingdom to another part thereof, do cease and determine."
Mr. Herriesdid not mean to oppose the reduction of the duty, which he thought a most proper one to be reduced; but he also thought it would be found difficult to dispense with it.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, it would be impossible wholly to dispense with this duty, and he hoped that the country gentlemen would consent to make some commutation of taxes, in order to allow this repeal not to be disadvantageous to the Government. Such a commutation was that proposed on timber, which would yield from 700,000 l. to 800,000 l. a year. He hoped the landed gentlemen would not oppose that tax.
Mr. Curteissaid, that removing the tax on coals was no particular advantage to the landowners; on the contrary, those who had much woodland might be injured by it.
Resolution agreed to.
Lord Althorpthen rose to propose the imposition of a duty on coals, when exported. The modification he meant to introduce in the tax would, he believed, be advantageous to the coal-owners of England. Certainly it would be better for them to remove the tax altogether, but that he could not do: and when a country had a monopoly, as it were, (which England had of coals) of any particular useful commodity, it ought to make other countries pay for the use of its advantages. The change he meant to propose was, he believed, as great as it was safe to make. He moved
That in lieu of the duties of customs now payable upon the exportation of coals, culm, and cinders, there he paid the several duties of customs hereinafter set forth; that is to say:

Coals, culm, and cinders, usually sold by measure, viz.

£.

s.

d.

—exported to any British Possession, the chaldron, imperial measure

0

1

0

—exported to any other place, viz.

—in a British, the chaldron, imperial measure

0

5

0

—in a foreign ship, the chaldron, imperial measure

0

18

3

Coals, culm, and cinders, usually sold by weight, vis.

— exported to any British Possessions, the ton

0

0

8

— exported to any other place, viz.

—in a British ship, the ton

0

3

4

—in a foreign ship, the ton

0

12

2

Mr. Tennantsaid, that we had not a monopoly of coal. There was an inexhaustible supply of coal in Belgium and France. We now supplied other countries with coals, but by the imposition of this tax we might destroy our market. He considered that we should derive greater advantage from allowing coals to be freely exported, than to clog that part of our trade by duties. He was sure, too, that the noble Lord would find this tax much less productive than he expected.
Mr. Warburtondefended the tax, on the
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authority of Mr. Ricardo, who had laid own the principle, that what one country could produce much cheaper than any the was proper to be taxed. That gentleman instanced the gold and silver in the possession of Spain. He was one of those who thought the duty should have been augmented. The cost of raising coals at Newcastle was certainly considerably increased, owing to the upper strata being exhausted; and looking at the possibility of the supply bring short, one day or another, he thought we ought not to part with it, except on the payment of rather a high tax.
Sir Thomas Aclandthought it was unreasonable to censure the Government, alter it had taken off the tax on sea-borne coals, for not also relieving foreigners.
Mr. Tennantdid not wish to flatter the Government, and he thought he was doing his duty to his constituents and the country when he warned the noble Lord against inflicting; injury, as he was about to do, on the property of coal-owners. They were already exposed to many restrictions on exporting coals, of which the noble Lord did not seem to be aware.
Lord Althorpwas aware of these restrictions, and many of them would be removed by the alteration he proposed in the tax.
Resolution agreed to.