Commons Sitting of 15 August 1831

MINUTES.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HUME, the official and real value of all British Exports to France in each year since 1814, distinguishing Colonial produce; also, an account of the official value of all Imports from France during the same period:—On the Motion of Mr. COURTENAY, the Treasury Minute respecting Superannuation allowances.
Petitions presented. By Mr. HUME, from the Inhabitants of Uxbridge, praying that they may be exempted from the Duty on Coals; from George Ingram, for an amendment of the Law relating to Debtors; and from the Journeymen Coal Measure Makers, for compensation if the Bill should pass; from certain Individuals, in favour of the Hackney Coaches Bill. By Sir RICHARD MUSGRAVE, from the

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Roman Catholic Clergy and Laity of the parish of Seskinane, against any further Grant to the Kildare Street Society.

DUTIES ON TILES.
Mr. Humepresented a Petition from the Tile-makers of London, praying for the Repeal of the Duties on Tiles, in consequence of their conviction that the reduction of duty on Slates, contemplated by the Bill now in progress through the House, would very materially injure their trade.
Mr. Briscoesaid, the prayer of the petition deserved the serious consideration of the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The repealing the duty on slates, and continuing the duty on tiles, would have the effect of completely excluding the latter from the market; thus the revenue would receive no advantage from the measure, but a number of persons would be thrown out of employment, who must be supported by their respective parishes.
Mr. Cresset Pelhamsaid, the pressure of the tax was severely felt in the county which he had the honour to represent.
Mr. Courtenaybegged to inquire, whether the subject was under the consideration of the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that Government had, with a view to ascertain the effect of the pending Bill on the petitioners, ordered returns to be made of the amount of duties chargeable on slates and tiles.
Mr. Briscoeassured the right hon. Secretary, he would find on inquiry, that the charge for slating was, in general, less than that for tiling: he had himself seen bills for the two species of work.
Mr. Humewas obliged to the hon. member for Surrey for his support; he was convinced the tax on tiles would, if continued, be ruinous to many individuals, without producing any benefit to the revenue.
Petition to lie on the Table.

PROGRESS OF THE REFORM BILL.
Mr. Humehad some Petitions to which he wished to call the attention of the House, in consequence of what had passed on some former occasions. The first was a Petition from Cupar, in Fife, very numerously signed, but containing objectionable expressions. He had struck out every word that could be considered offensive. For doing this, he had received the authority of some of the petitioners, but the consent of others had not yet arrived. He was not present when it had
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been ruled, that petitions with erasures could not be received unless they had been sanctioned by the petitioners; but he was willing to act on the principle, as he understood it to have been established. The second Petition was from the city of Perth; the third came from the Political Union of Dundee; another from the Political Union of Leslie; and another was the Petition of the Political Union of Edinburgh. This latter petition was expressive of approbation of the principle of the Reform Bill, and of regret at the delay which had taken place in its progress. He was aware, that in order to preserve freedom of debate, it had been ruled, that no Member could impute motives to the actions of another, and he felt, that, as some of these petitions imputed motives to the opponents of the Bill, they could not be received, it being clear, that petitioners were not at liberty to do that which could not be done by Members themselves. The Perth petition assigned factious motives and attempts at intentional delay to the opponents of the Bill. The petition from Cupar did the same. He was, therefore, aware, that he could not present either of them, although he was ready to state their prayer, which was for the speedy passing of the Bill. The Edinburgh petition he should present, because it was free from any thing objectionable, merely praying the House to accelerate the progress of the Reform Bill. He abstained from presenting the Dundee petition, because it characterised the opposition to the Bill as factious, and imputed improper motives to Members. For the reasons stated, he did not consider himself authorized to offer any but the Edinburgh petition to the House. At the same time, he thought it well that the grounds of his refusal to present the others should be generally known.
Mr. George Robinson Mr. George Robinson rose to order, and asked, whether it was competent for a Member to state the substance of petitions, which he himself admitted could not be received?
The Speakerthought the hon. member for Middlesex perfectly in order, and was of opinion, that the trouble which the hon. Gentleman had been giving himself, would prove extremely advantageous to the House. With respect to alterations in petitions, it had been decided, that if erasures were made by the petitioners, or with their consent, the petitions still contained

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the prayer of the petitioners, and might, therefore, be received by the House. But, if Members were allowed to make erasures at their own discretion, there would be no possibility of drawing a line of distinction as to what might, or might not, be altered, and petitions might be converted into supporting a. totally different object from that intended by their authors. There was another objection to such a course—namely, that it would lead to the principle of causing Members to adopt petitions as their own, instead of being merely channels of conveying petitions to the House, without committing themselves to their contents.
Mr. Humewas glad to find, that he was borne out by the Speaker in the course he had adopted. He was anxious that popular bodies should know, that the only objection to receiving their petitions arose from their not keeping within the same restraint as to language, as the Members of the House, found it convenient and necessary to do. The petition from Leslie contained an expression of indignation against the faction in Parliament, which had prevented the country from, as yet, reaping the expected benefit from the Reform Bill. The petitioners also attributed improper motives to the opponents of the Bill: on these grounds, their petition could not be presented. In conclusion, he asked leave to bring up the Edinburgh petition.
Mr. George Robinsonrepeated his objection to Members stating the contents of petitions which could not be laid on the Table: such a course must lead to loss of time, and great public inconvenience.
Mr. Huntdid not think the view taken by the hon. member for Middlesex of this subject had been taken by any Member previously. Petitions which he had presented had been rejected, because they were said to be couched in strong language, but not because they attributed improper motives to hon. Gentlemen.
Petition to lie on the Table.

TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE.
Mr. Humesaid, he had a Petition to present on a subject of the greatest importance, intimately connected as it was with the state of the Press in this country. It was from a number of persons who had assembled at the Rotunda, in Blackfriars-road, on the 4th of last July. The petition had been put into his hands on the 5th day of
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July; but he had had no opportunity of presenting it before. The petition was against all laws which prevented the circulation of truth, and which laid imposts on knowledge. No one, certainly, would deny, that the whole community should be rendered as instructed and enlightened as possible, and that ignorance was the bane of society. The petitioners prayed that there should be no longer any laws having for their object to retain the people in ignorance. Many hon. Members might not be aware of the nature of the laws at present affecting the Press. By the 60th Geo. 3rd cap. 9, (one of those laws which were commonly known by the name of the Six Acts), whoever published a pamphlet, containing information or news, of less than two sheets in size, and at a less price than sixpence, was compelled to pay the same duty as a newspaper. The rich were, by this Act, allowed to have information at the same rate as that which they had been accustomed to pay for it; but the poor were precluded from the same privilege. The result was, that for a long period persons abstained from issuing publications such as the Act contemplated; but of late, and in defiance of the law, such a description of pamphlets, containing news and information, had been published, as brought those by whom they were published under the operation of the Stamp Acts. A Mr. Carpenter was at present suffering under the odious law to which he had alluded. That gentleman had published something in the shape of a pamphlet, which the Officers of Government chose to call a newspaper, but which he called a Political Letter. Now, if there was any one thing which had a greater tendency than another to brutalize a people, it was such a law as this. Was not the whole kingdom busy in establishing schools for the poor? But of what use would those schools be, if the law prevented the working classes from having cheap publications to read? Nothing could be devised more hostile to the interests of good Government. The Act in question was passed for the purpose of putting down Cobbett's paper, a two penny publication; the arguments and ability of which were found to be so inconvenient, that Government determined to adopt that mode of suppressing it. What was the present consequence of the law? That any man—he did not speak of particular individuals—but, that any man who might

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not have the good of the public at heart, in defiance of the law, issued publications, many of them containing much that was offensive; among other things, challenging the utility of the right of property, and even asserting, that it ought not to exist at all—[Mr. Hunt expressed his dissent.] he asserted emphatically—they did, they did; while well-disposed people, who were aware how injurious such doctrines were to the country, were, nevertheless, prevented from contradicting them in the same shape, accessible to the people, for fear of incurring the penalties of the law. He agreed with the petitioners, therefore, that a tax on knowledge, or the spread of information, was injurious both to individuals and to the community at large. He also agreed with them in the declaration, that every man who was now in prison for having contributed to the diffusion of information, was suffering unjustly. He knew no legitimate way of opposing opinions but by arguments; and that opinion which could not be met by argument, must be a sound and just one.
Mr. Huntconcurred in the prayer of the petition, that the Act in question should be repealed. He denied, however, the statement of the hon. member for Middlesex, that the publications to which he had alluded questioned the right of property. At least, he had never seen any such. They objected to property qualification in an elector; but that was quite a different thing.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that he had seen several of those publications, which did impugn the right of property. They circulated that and other mischief, which no man could reply to on equally cheap terms, and send his reply among the lower classes, without defying the law, which honest and honourable men did not like to do. The publishers of such works had, therefore, a monopoly of mischief. He was exceedingly sorry that Government had not brought in a Bill for the repeal of the Act in question. It was an Act which had been levelled at an individual; and was most unconstitutional and improper. It was levelled against Mr. Cobbett, and had compelled him to raise his Register from 2d. to 6d. Now, though it was impossible to agree to all Mr. Cobbett's opinions, there was no man possessing a spark of common sense who must not say, that he was one of the most able and powerful writers that this or any
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other country ever produced. The working classes ought not to be deprived of information. They had as much intellect as their superiors in station, and understood reasoning, and, above all, facts quite as well as their masters; and it would be no difficult matter to show them, if the means were afforded, that the evils of violent revolutions in society, would be as injurious to them as to the other classes of the community.
Colonel Torrenscordially concurred with those who thought, that the only way to prevent the working classes from being imposed upon and influenced by injurious doctrines was, to counteract the effect of those doctrines, by rendering knowledge cheap. In proportion as they extended the elective franchise, in the same proportion they owed it to the safety of the empire to extend the means of diffusing knowledge amongst the people. If the people wore excluded from knowledge, the country would never want a Swing to burn corn-ricks and break machinery. If the people had knowledge, they would see that their interests wore dovetailed in with the interests of society; they would find that, however large the property of an individual, his powers of consumption were not thereby increased; and therefore, that the whole of the people had, after all, the whole of the produce of the soil. These were truths which, to those who knew them, were as clear as the sun at noon-day; but, by the present system, the people were kept in ignorance of the very first principles of political science.
The Petition brought up and read. On the Motion that it lie on the Table,
Mr. Huntwished to correct an error into which the hon. and learned member for Kerry had fallen. The Act in question was not directed against Mr. Cobbett alone. There was at that time the Black Dwarf, conducted by Mr. Wooller, and a number of other cheap publications. Nor had the immediate effect of the Act been to raise the publication from twopence to sixpence.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that being legally disqualified from selling his Register at two pence, Mr. Cobbett had been compelled to raise the price to sixpence. If the hon. Member would look at the reports of the Debates of those days, he would see that the great object was, to put down Cobbett's Two penny "Trash;" a name which it was far from deserving.
Mr. Huntobserved, that the fact was, that about the time the Act passed, Cobbelt left the country, and the Register was not published for a year after.
Petition to lie on the Table.

PUNISHMENT OF RELIGIOUS OPINIONS.
Mr. Humepresented a Petition, signed by 1,200 inhabitants of Bolton-le-Moors, for a remission of the sentence passed upon the Reverend Robert Taylor; and praying, that the House would take into consideration the inexpediency of inflicting punishment for religious opinions. The petitioners, who were the friends of free discussion, religious as well as political, expressed their alarm at the proceedings of the self-constituted body called "The Society for the Suppression of Vice." They thought, and he concurred with them, that such proceedings were not consistent with the free principles of this country. He put the individual, whose imprisonment was the cause of the petition, out of the question. That person was known to entertain opinions different from the established religion of the country. Why, a Jew, a Unitarian, a Mahommedan, a Hindoo, all held opinions different from those of the established religion; and if one was to be punished by fine and imprisonment, the others ought to be punished also. The consequence would be, the monopoly of opinion on the subject. This was a question, therefore, which was of the deepest interest to all men. He argued, that the Missionaries among the Mahommedans and Hindoos proceeded in the same way as that, for which Taylor had been punished, by attacking the religious opinions of the majority in the countries to which they went. Mr. Taylor was a person who had received, an education comprising all the advantages which those of the London Universities could bestow; or, as he was just informed by an hon. Member near him, Cambridge could bestow. He had taken a degree at that University, and afterwards entered into holy orders, and officiated as a clergyman of the Church of England. He (Mr. Hume) remembered he was Curate of Midhurst, where he had a liberal income, and lived in good society, as every clergyman might if he chose. When, therefore, this gentleman renounced the Thirty-nine Articles, and gave up his living and his hopes of preferment in the Church, it was impossible
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not to believe he had done so from conscientious motives. He surrendered his salary and his situation, and he had held a public meeting in a place which he called a church, to which he invited every man who pleased to come, and convince him of the error in the opinions he had been led to entertain. To this place, however, no person was permitted to go without paying a certain sum of money for his admittance. He accordingly protested against it as a monstrous thing, that a man should, in his private room, have his opinions taken down by hired informers. He wondered much that twelve men could be found in the country to convict Taylor on such evidence, and to condemn him for opinions uttered in his private room. He protested, likewise, against the sentence as tyrannical and unjust, and described it, first, as in fact solitary confinement for the space of two years, with the exception of his being permitted to see his friends through a grating for two hours each day; and, secondly, as solitary imprisonment for life, on account of the heavy recognizances to be entered into on his behalf at the end of the two years—recognizances which would pledge him never during his life to hold an opinion contrary to the Judge who tried him, or the majority of the people in this country. He observed also, that Taylor was deprived of all books except such as were approved of by the Chaplain or two Magistrates, and said, he was borne down at once by tyranny, mental and bodily. He detested the conduct of the Society for the Suppression of Vice in sending a spy into a man's private room to take down opinions expressed in public discussion. He disapproved of Mr. Taylor's proceedings, because he thought men owed that deference to society which should prevent them from attacking established opinions; but he considered there was no Inquisition in existence more tyrannical than the inquisition as regarded Mr. Taylor. If Taylor had delivered his opinions at Charing-cross, it would be quite right to punish him as a nuisance; but the case was very different when he confined himself to his private room. He again said, he wondered twelve men could have been found to convict Taylor on the evidence of hired informers, and to convict him of blasphemy; an offence which was not defined—though it was the same as that for which our

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Saviour suffered. He protested against a man's thus suffering for an undefined offence; for where definition was not precise, oppression must exist. The punishment, he maintained, was excessive. When tried in the King's Bench, upon a more heinous charge, he had been only sentenced to confinement for one year. He admitted, that the visiting Magistrates had relaxed the severity of Taylor's confinement; but he agreed with the petitioners in praying the House to interfere in that gentleman's behalf. If they considered Taylor's offence, they would see it was merely a difference of opinion; and he submitted to the House, whether it was consistent with Christianity or humanity to persecute a man for his opinions. He submitted to them, whether it was just to condemn a man, accustomed to literary and other elegant employments, to solitary confinement, because he happened to differ from the majority in opinion. He thought that no man should be attacked for his opinions, if he did not commit a nuisance in the State. Besides, this prosecution would add to infidelity. For all these reasons, he strenuously supported the prayer of the petition. He moved that it be brought up.
Mr. John Woodseconded the Motion, and observed, that the fact of such respectable persons as the petitioners expressing sympathy for Taylor, was a strong proof of the inexpediency of the law under which this person had been convicted. He allowed, that Mr. Taylor set forth his opinions in a revolting way; but if persecution for opinion was suffered, no man would be safe. He looked upon Taylor as an object of pity rather than punishment.
Mr. Trevorsaid, that it was a fact perfectly notorious, that Taylor had used all means to promulgate his opinions—that he had burlesqued the mysteries of our religion—and it was for this, and not for differing in opinion with other people, that he had been punished. Those who thought that his punishment was harsh, might perhaps be inclined to consider the maintenance of any system of morality or religion of no importance. As to all that the hon. member for Middlesex had said about Taylor's education and opportunities of mixing in good society, it was clearly an aggravation of the man's offence.
Mr. James E. Gordon Mr. James E. Gordon rose to express his unqualified dissent from the sentiments
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of the hon. member for Middlesex. He did so, first, from an impression that they were erroneous; secondly, because he had made a most unjustifiable attack upon the Society for the Suppression of Vice. He felt it necessary, therefore, to say a few words. He thought that the country was under great obligations to that Society for its exertions in the suppression of blasphemy, and he denied, that there was any analogy between the proceedings of the Missionaries in foreign countries, and of Taylor here. He denied, also, that Taylor had contented himself with holding his opinions in private. He had sought to spread them as widely as he could, by tongue and pen. In addition to his labours as a lecturer, he was the editor of a weekly publication, called The Devil's Pulpit, in which infidel doctrines were maintained. He likewise declared, that the persons who provided the evidence against Taylor, were not hired informers, but gentlemen, and above the necessity of receiving hire.
Mr. O'Connellstated, that he also had been requested to support the petition; and did so heartily, notwithstanding his abhorrence of the doctrines maintained by Mr. Taylor. Persecution would soon elevate the man into a martyr, as was evident from the fact of the petitioners sympathizing with him. And he believed, that if some steps were not taken to mitigate the severity of Mr. Taylor's sentence, the petition would be speedily followed by a subscription. As an instance of the impolicy of persecution, he remarked, that the hon. member for Dundalk had advertised a publication of Taylor's, The Devil's Pulpit, about which neither he, nor any hon. Member near him, had ever heard before. With respect to the Society for the Suppression of Vice, he declared it to be highly unconstitutional; because it was possible that it might chance to furnish from its members at once prosecutors, witnesses, Jury, and Judge.
Mr. Denisonsaid, an unfair attack had been made on the conduct of the Magistrates of Surrey, by whose kindness many indulgences had been extended to Taylor. He was in a comfortable room, eighteen feet by twenty-four; was allowed to provide his own dinner (wine and spirituous liquors being alone denied him); he had a free supply of books and newspapers, and he was permitted to walk in the open air to a certain time each day. No charge of

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harshness could possibly attach to the visiting Magistrates.
Mr. Briscoesaid, he agreed with the petitioners, that the greatest liberty ought to be allowed for the expression of opinion; but he believed that the petitioners were not aware of the nature of the offence for which Mr. Taylor was imprisoned. Mr. Taylor had advertised a lecture on astronomy, for the hearing of which money was paid at the door; but under this pretence the most offensive exhibition was offered to the eyes of the spectators, Mr. Taylor having dressed himself in full canonicals, and having addressed the assembly with a large cross hung before him. It was this which rendered the observations as to free discussion quite inapplicable to the present case. If there was any difference of treatment from that usually pursued towards misdemeanants, resorted to in the case of Taylor, he regretted it, and he thought, that there ought to be one general mode of treatment for all such persons in all the gaols in the kingdom. He was, individually, inclined to allow Taylor every indulgence consistent with the safe custody of the prisoner, and the general rules of the prison; but, at the same time, he thought that every class of misdemeanants ought to be treated in the same manner.
Mr. Pagetsaid, that persecution would never put down opinion; and the real offence imputed to Taylor appeared rather to be an offence against the Archbishop of Canterbury than against God or religion; for the worst part appeared to be, that Taylor had made a disgraceful exhibition, by appearing in a clerical dress, when he was uttering irreligious opinions. The right of entertaining and uttering such opinions did not seem to be denied him. A case in favour of Mr. Taylor had been made out by the hon. member for Surrey, who had shewn, that the sentence passed on Mr. Taylor was not only severe but very unusual. Under these circumstances, he did hope and trust that the whole of the sentence would undergo revision.
Mr. Huntsupported the prayer of the petition, and said, that any severity not directed by the words of the sentence was against law. He had heard, that some of the Surrey Magistrates, and even some of the Jurors who tried Mr. Taylor, were members of the Society for the Suppression of Vice. He contended, the Magistrates had no authority to prevent Mr. Taylor
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from seeing his friends, or drinking wine. The law only prohibited spirituous liquors in prisons. He knew nothing of Mr. Taylor; but thought prosecuting him for dressing himself like an Archbishop, or making use of a parcel of mummery, was absurd. In how many plays were such exhibitions introduced, and the actors were not punished. It had been acknowledged that the rules of the Surrey prisons were severe, and he therefore wished to have a copy of the regulations laid before the House. He protested against any discretionary power being left in the hands of Magistrates. The offence of Mr. Taylor was nothing but a piece of theatrical tom-foolery. The present petition was another proof of the evil effects produced by such prosecutions. Had the trial not taken place, the people of Bolton would probably never have heard of Mr. Taylor, or the harsh treatment he was said to have experienced in prison.
On the motion that the petition be read,
Mr. Briscoesaid, he did not believe that any of the Magistrates for Surrey, or any of the members of the Jury who tried Mr. Taylor, belonged to the Society for the Suppression of Vice. He was certain no Magistrate for Surrey would, for a moment, continue on the judicial bench in any cause to which he was a party concerned, and he believed no Juryman would serve when he would be trying his own cause. The statement, that Mr. Taylor had been put into solitary confinement, was not correct; for at first that individual had been confined with several other persons, convicted of misdemeanors, and he petitioned to be removed, which, in consequence had taken place: he now occupied a room by himself—but if there was any complaint of solitary confinement, the Magistrates were not liable to it.
Mr. James E. Gordonregretted that the hon. member for Kerry persisted in making personal allusions to him, which caused him most reluctantly again to intrude upon the House. He had hitherto abstained from noticing insinuations and remarks which he utterly despised, but the accusation now made called upon him for some notice. He repelled with indignation the charge, that he wished to provoke persecution. The religion he professed, and the creed he advocated, alike forbade it; with respect to the publication called The Devil's Pulpit, it had before been mentioned in the House, and extracts read from it. He, therefore, could not be

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charged justly with bringing into notice such publications. At present they enjoyed a most extensive sale, and did incalculable injury. They were made the vehicles for attacking all that was venerable or respectable in the country, and he should certainly bring the subject before the House at a proper opportunity.
Mr. Denisonsaid, it was the object of his hon. colleague and himself to have every indulgence given to Mr. Taylor that his situation permitted. There was no restriction imposed upon him in particular. With regard to wine or spirits, he was expected only to conform to the rules of the prison. As a Magistrate of Surrey he knew nothing of the Society for the Suppression of Vice, nor was he in any manner connected with it, nor did he believe any of the Jury who tried Mr. Taylor were members of it.
Mr. O 'Connellsaid, he was an enemy to religious persecutions of all kinds, and as the hon. member for Dundalk professed himself to be an Episcopalian, he must know how persons of that persuasion had been formerly dealt with in his own country, Scotland, where they were considered as Dissenters. This should teach him to be more tender how he interfered with the belief of others. He hoped such an enlightened country as England was not about to adopt persecutions, tending to increase the spread of opinions of a certain sect.
Petition read.
Mr. Hume,in moving, that the petition be printed, said, that he hoped he had said enough to convince his Majesty's Ministers that the punishment inflicted upon Mr. Taylor was excessive, and the remainder of it ought to be remitted. The sentence was, that he be imprisoned for two years, and be fined 250 l., and procure securities for good behaviour. It was obvious that Mr. Taylor would find the utmost difficulty in procuring bail, and the result might be his perpetual imprisonment. It was, therefore, much to the credit of the hon. members for Surrey that they had contributed to the amelioration of Mr. Taylor's condition, so far as in them lay. He hoped to be supported by Members in a motion he should make at an early opportunity, for a return of the list of the members of the Society for the Suppression of Vice. If prosecutions were to be instituted, they should be left to the Law Officers of the Crown, and not to the feelings
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of individuals. If the present law continued, it was reasonable, that the persons should be known who instituted such prosecutions. It had been admitted, that the regulations of the prison were harsh; they ought, therefore, to have been revised by the Magistrates, and thereby a gentleman like Mr. Taylor should have been prevented from suffering such unnecessary privations as he had experienced. On his committal he had been placed in the common room, with persons convicted of all sorts of crimes. He was obliged to attend chapel, to which he objected—received no other food than bread and water, and was wholly prevented from seeing his friends. Was that proper or decent treatment? After the interposition of his hon. friends with the Magistrates, they agreed to let him have newspapers, but he was prevented from having his own publication, The Devil's Pulpit. He was at length also allowed books, but none were permitted that treated upon theology, or controversial divinity. Now this was, probably, as hard as any part of the punishment. Suppose he should have the misfortune to be imprisoned, and that it should happen to be his taste to read nothing but parliamentary proceedings, how hard it would be for him if the Magistrates should order his gaoler to allow him no books with blue covers, nor any information relating to what was doing in that House. Surely it was too much for any set of men to take on themselves, at their own pleasure, thus to increase the severity of a sentence upon a person convicted of a misdemeanor.

DISTURBANCES IN MAYO AND GALWAY.
On the question that the Petition be printed,
Mr. James Brownsaid, that, seeing the right hon. the Secretary for Ireland in his place, he was very desirous of putting a few questions to the right hon. Gentleman, on the state of the county with which he was connected. It was stated in some of the public papers, that the most frightful disturbances had taken place in that part of Ireland; that they were committed, not under the cover of night, but boldly, in the open day; that the law was set at direct defiance, and the disturbances were of a character to threaten the very existence of society. Under these circumstances, he wished, first, to ask the right hon. Secretary, whether the communication

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which the Government had received upon this subject agreed with those statements in the public papers? His next question was, whether the Government of Ireland had thought it expedient to adopt any more vigorous measures to put down these disturbances? and his third question was, whether the Magistrates and the officers whose duty it was to watch over the preservation of the peace in Gal way and Mayo, had acted with that degree of vigour and firmness which the necessity of the time required?
Mr. Stanleysaid, that if he properly understood the questions of his hon. friend near him, he should have little difficulty in answering the two first; but must, decline giving any answer to the third. With regard to the first question, he regretted to say, that, although the disturbances in the county of Clare had altogether ceased, and property seemed restored to a state of perfect safety from violence, yet that there were still disturbances going on in Galway and Mayo, and he feared that some of them were of a violent character. With regard to the second question, he answered, that the Government had, on this occasion, taken all the means in its power for exercising in full force all the authority they now possessed—with all which they were now intrusted by the law of the land; and he must take that opportunity of saying, that a case stronger than that of Clare, and infinitely stronger than that of Galway at this moment—nay, even stronger than that of Mayo, with which the hon. Member was more peculiarly connected—must be made out, before the Government would be induced to come down to that House, and ask from Parliament for the grant of any extraordinary powers. Ministers would, upon all occasions, most strenuously exercise the powers they possessed; but they felt, that the evil, though it might be put down for a time by the operation of measures of unusual strength, was, in the end, rather increased than diminished by their effect. In the present instance, the Government had done all that they could, in the increase of the stipendiary magistracy, in the increase of the peace-preservation force, and in other measures of a similar kind, to put down these disturbances. Similar measures had been successful in Clare, and he trusted they would be equally so in Galway and in Mayo. With regard to the third question, he was quite sure that the House
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would feel with him, that it would be improper for him to give it any answer.
Petition to be printed.

LORD-LIEUTENANTS FOR IRELAND.
Mr. Stanley Mr. Stanley moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, on the Lord-lieutenants (Ireland) Bill.
Mr. George Robinsonwished to know from the noble Lord, whether he meant to bring forward the Wine-duties Bill this evening?
Lord Althorpsaid, it was his intention to move the second reading of the Bill this evening, if it were in his power; but the questions regarding Ireland were of so much importance and pressing urgency, that they must first be settled.
Mr. Lefroywished to ask a question of an hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Robert Gordon) with reference to the report of the Committee on the Dublin election petition. The report, and the evidence on which it was founded, were ordered to be printed; and it was understood that some proceeding founded on that evidence would be instituted. He now wished to know, whether the hon. Gentleman had received any instructions on the subject, and whether he meant to submit to the House any resolutions with reference to it?
Mr. Robert Gordansaid, that he had received no instructions from the Committee on the subject. He meant, however, to submit Resolutions to the House, embracing all the principal points contained in the report of the Committee. If it would suit the convenience of the House, he would introduce those Resolutions on Tuesday week.
Mr. James E. Gordoninquired whether his Majesty's Ministers had taken, or intended to take, any notice of speeches which had been made by certain Magistrates at a recent meeting in Wexford? He was desirous to learn whether any proceedings with regard to those speeches had been adopted?
Mr. Stanleysaid, his Majesty's Government had not thought it necessary to take any notice of the circumstance to which the hon. Member had referred.
The Order of the Day read for going into Committee on the Lord-lieutenants (Ireland) Bill. On the question "That the Speaker do now leave the Chair,".
Mr. O'Connell Mr. O'Connell rose to move, as an amendment, that the Bill should be committed

23
on that day six months. He disapproved of the principle of the Bill, his objections to which no alterations whatever could remove, and he was borne out in that opinion by many for whom he had the highest respect. He always thought that, in legislating for Ireland, the greatest fault was, that those who legislated were obliged to form their judgments from report, instead of the more unerring testimony of their own observation. He could not expect, that his evidence and his views of the state of that country could overwhelm the testimony which would be opposed to him; but he would, in justice to himself, as well as to the great mass of the Irish people, state to the House his reasons for considering this Bill a bad Bill; and, in mentioning the grounds of his objection, he should rather argue against the implied than the expressed authority which the Bill went to establish. The great disadvantage of legislating for Ireland in this country was, that hon. Members took statements for granted, of the truth and reality of which they could have no means of satisfying themselves. It was said, that the system of appointing Lord-lieutenants in England acted well, and that the power of recommending to the magistracy produced salutary effects in this country. On that subject, he professed himself to be as ignorant as other Gentlemen were of the peculiar state of Ireland. But even in this country, circumstances had occurred, which showed that the Lord-lieutenants of counties must adopt certain party feelings, and of course they would give, as far as possible, the same colour to the magistracy whom they recommended. That venerable nobleman, Earl Fitzwilliam, was removed from the office of Lord-lieutenant, on account of his political principles. Now, if partisan-ship were thus manifested in this country, it would be found to prevail far more extensively in Ireland; and he objected strongly to placing an irresponsible power of this description in the hands of persons who might be under a strong political or religious bias. It was almost idle for him to say, that the magistracy of Ireland was not what it ought to be. Nearly one-half of that magistracy was composed of ministers of the Established Church. The curates were Magistrates as well as the rectors. He did not mean to speak of, nor even to allude to, particular Magistrates, but this he would confidently affirm, that
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the Magistrates, in general, were not popular; and he would not assert that they deserved to be so. With respect to the appointment of Magistrates in Ireland, that power had, for a long series of years, been most partially exercised. During the period in which a late Lord Chancellor held the seals, and when Mr. Saurin was Attorney General, it was extremely difficult for a liberal-minded man to get himself placed on the Commission as a Justice of the Peace; and it was almost hopeless for a Roman Catholic to seek for such an appointment. In fact, in the Chancellor ship of the late Earl of Clare, a regular denunciation was made against those who were supposed to have a political bias. There were upwards of 1,400 Protestant gentlemen, of high respectability, in the Roman Catholic Association, and every man of them was regularly excluded from the Commission, notwithstanding every effort was made to procure the appointment of men so unquestionably qualified. The gentleman who recently filled the office of Lord Chancellor (Sir Anthony Hart), a most learned, patient, and honourable man, and, consequently, anxious to discharge his duty in the best manner, in what situation, he would ask, was that individual placed? He was determined to appoint no man to the magistracy whom he considered to be a political partizan. Now, it so happened, that the learned person to whom he alluded was surrounded by political partizans, and knowing little or nothing of Ireland himself, he took his opinion from their representations. What was the consequence? Why, acting on their views, without being aware of their object, he refused to place in the Commission of the Peace, men who were the best calculated to fill the office, and appointed the very individuals who ought not to have been selected. With respect to the conduct which had been pursued under the present Administration, he believed, that no man had any right to complain either of the appointments or of the refusals which had occurred. Reverting, however, to this Bill, it ought to be observed, that they had, at present, a known public officer responsible for the appointment of Magistrates. That officer was the Lord Chancellor. Perhaps, it would be said, that the Lord Chancellor's was a nominal responsibility; but if Reform were realized—and that it would be realized he firmly believed—there would

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be an absolute instead of a nominal responsibility. This Bill was brought in for the purpose of benefitting Ireland. To any man acquainted with the state of that country, it would at once appear evident that it would have no such effect. Whom would the Government appoint as Lord-lieutenants? Let them take any county in Ireland, and he would defy them to find out a man, except, perhaps, one or two, whom it would be desirable to place in the situation of Lord-lieutenant. Take, for instance, the county of Waterford (and he selected that county, because the Marquis of Waterford was not a public character, being only between nineteen and twenty years of age, and therefore he could give no offence in the allusion which he was about to make), take the county of Waterford—and what had occurred there? An hon. Baronet opposite had twice applied to be placed in the Commission of the Peace for Waterford, but his application was rejected. No man, whether the head or the heart were regarded, was more fit for the office, yet he applied twice, and twice he applied in vain. As the system at present stood, every appointment and every refusal was the Lord Chancellor's own act; but, by this Bill, they placed a screen between the Lord Chancellor and his existing responsibility. In fact, they removed all responsibility. The law had placed the responsibility on the Lord Chancellor, but, by this Bill, they took the responsibility of these appointments from the Lord Chancellor, and on whom did they place it? On nobody. The Duke of Leinster and one or two others might be an exception to the position which he had laid down; but taking the counties of Ireland generally, he believed that, in none of them, would be found a proper person in whose hands the inhabitants would be disposed to place so high a trust. In his view of the probable consequences, of this measure, he could not avoid designating the Bill as "the 'thirty tyrants' Bill"—a Bill which would place a despot at the head of every county in Ireland. The consequence would be, constant bickerings and constant complaints, and the people would seek for redress in the highest, quarter, and "flee from petty tyrants to the Throne." This Bill would unquestionably give many petty tyrants to Ireland; and, instead of passing such a measure now, he intreated the House to pause, and to let the matter rest
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until the next Session. The magistracy, as he had already observed, was badly constituted in Ireland. When three or four Magistrates, acting together, met in petty session, whatever their conduct might be, it was almost impossible to procure any redress, or appeal, with success, from their decision. They were above all law but their own. There was recently laid before that House a return of the number of applications made during the last ten years for criminal informations against Magistrates, in the English Court of King's Bench. From that return, there appeared to have been thirty applications of this nature against Magistrates, ten of them being against clerical Magistrates. In twelve cases, the application was dismissed with costs; in eight, the application was dismissed without costs; and in ten, the Magistrates were obliged to pay the costs—showing that, in one-third of the cases, the Magistrates were, to a certain degree, blameable. Even in England, the magistracy exerted an immense deal of arbitrary power. That power was not exerted against the noble and wealthy; it was wielded solely against the people. In Ireland, the case was infinitely worse. There, speaking generally, the Magistrate rejoiced in a conviction—exulted in a conviction. In such a country, the present Bill, joined to the Malicious Trespass Act, would produce the most deplorable effects. A Jury-bill had been introduced—a bill, he would say, exceedingly well considered in most of its provisions. One provision of that bill, however, was, that the list of Jurors, of special Jurors, should be struck by the Magistrates. Would they, then, under these circumstances, give such an additional power as this Bill provided, in the appointment of Magistrates? Would they take away the responsibility which at present rested with the Lord Chancellor? He was convinced that this Bill would work badly. He no more doubted, than he doubted of his existence, that the measure would create discontent and heart-burnings throughout Ireland. He believed that Ministers meant well, but they were, in this instance, acting under a delusion. In opposing this measure, he was not actuated by any political feeling; he did so, because he was certain that the Bill would render more prevalent that system of partizanship which could not be too much reprobated. He was a friend to single responsibility. If they shared responsibility amongst a

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number, they must infallibly destroy it. They would do so by passing this Bill, and therefore he opposed it. He had no private views—no secret motives—nothing to actuate him, but the good of his country. Under that feeling, he had thought it his duty to make these observations. He considered the Bill a bad Bill; it would be more injurious than beneficial; it would sow additional dissension and strife in Ireland, and therefore he begged leave to move, that it be committed that day six months.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that if he, or his Majesty's Ministers in general, had thought that the measure then before the House was likely to produce the disastrous consequences which the learned Gentleman apprehended from it, they never would have introduced it. The learned Gentleman was of opinion, that the Bill would increase partizanship, and would also do away with responsibility. If this struck him as being a correct position, he would be the last man to support the measure. But it was because the Bill was calculated to do the very reverse—because it was calculated to secure responsibility, and to afford a proper control over the magistracy,—because it would give to the government of Ireland a connecting link between it and the magistracy, and the public of Ireland—it was because the Bill would thus operate, that he gave it his hearty approval. It was, in his opinion, a Bill not likely to produce mischievous effects, but to prove eminently beneficial. It was, in fact, desired by former Governments, who were of opinion that its results would be most beneficial. He agreed with the learned Gentleman, that if the system in England, and which was about to be adopted in Ireland, was calculated to create despotic authority, it ought to be condemned. If this were the case, then he would admit that the learned Gentleman's objections were well-founded. But such was not the fact. Despotic authority did not exist here, neither was there any intention of introducing despotic authority into Ireland. It was very true, that in appointing to the situation of Lord-lieutenant, the Government would at all times rather select those who were favourable to their opinions than those who were opposed to them; but, during his remembrance, no unjustifiable influence had ever been manifested in the removal of a Lord-lieutenant. The learned
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Gentleman had alluded to the circumstance of a highly respected nobleman, who had been removed from that situation; but that was a case which could not be fairly referred to as general precedent and example. A very near relative of his own (Mr. Stanley's) had, for between fifty and sixty years, held the situation of Lord-lieutenant. Though his principles were opposed to those supported by some preceding Government, still he was considered merely as a Ministerial officer, and Government never interfered with him. The learned Gentleman had not adverted to the expressed authority, as described in the Bill, but had directed his observations to the implied authority; and he (Mr. Stanley) admitted, that the implied authority was a fair subject for discussion. The learned Gentleman had said, that the Magistrates of Ireland were not what they ought to be—that they exulted in convictions, and triumphed over the feelings of the people. There were, he feared, many cases in which the Magistrates had not acted well. What, then, was the object of this Bill? It was to place in each county such a local authority as would be perfectly cognizant of the conduct of every Magistrate; and who could, on his own responsibility, report to Government the course pursued by the Magistrate within his jurisdiction, as well as his reasons for recommending the appointment of new Justices of the Peace. Those noblemen or gentlemen who were placed in the situation of Lord-lieutenants, would do hereafter, under responsibility, that which they could now do, by secret influence, without responsibility. There was at present no direct mode of communication between Government and the Magistrates, for the governors of counties, as the hon. and learned Gentleman must know, had only a nominal responsibility, and that defect would be remedied by the present measure. In alluding to the governors of counties, he was reminded of an observation of the hon. and learned Gentleman, and he must say, that he agreed entirely with the hon. and learned Gentleman in his observation, that responsibility was lost when it was divided amongst many. It was so divided in the case of governors of counties. Carlow had five governors, Cork five, Fermanagh four, Meath four, and eight other counties had three each. The learned Gentleman had said, that when the Reform Bill had passed, Magistrates would be better nominated.

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Now he could not see what effect the Reform Bill was likely to produce on that point. The hon. and learned Gentleman and he were at issue as to the probable effects of the Bill. The hon. and learned Gentleman objected to the Bill on the ground that it would diminish responsibility, and he (Mr. Stanley) advocated the Bill on the ground that it would increase responsibility. The hon. and learned Gentleman also said, that in many counties it would be difficult to find a fit person to be Lord-lieutenant. He admitted, that that difficulty would exist in some counties, but he denied, that it would exist to the extent anticipated by the hon. and learned Gentleman. In his opinion, counties so situated would form the exception, not the rule. Generally, there would be no difficulty in finding a person whose high standing and weight in the county would point him out as a fit person to be intrusted with the responsibility of this office. This Bill would, he was convinced, tend greatly to promote the residence of the nobility and gentry in Ireland. Every Lord-lieutenant of a county, when he left Ireland, would be obliged to appoint a vice-lieutenant, who, during the absence of the Lord-lieutenant, would exercise the whole of that patronage which the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell) thought the Lord-lieutenants would be so anxious to possess, and so liable to abuse. This, he contended, was a direct encouragement to the Lord-lieutenants to reside in Ireland. On the whole, he had no such fear that any evil would follow from the appointments under this Bill, as he had from the continuance of the present state of Ireland, where there was no control—no link between the several counties and the Government—and no person responsible for the peace of those counties, or having any control over the Magistrates or the military. It was not necessary to enter into the question further at present. He had only to add, that his Majesty's Government considered the measure as one of the greatest importance, and he sincerely hoped, that the predictions of the hon. and learned member for Kerry, with regard to its effects, might not be verified.
Mr. Jephsoncould not conceive any thing more objectionable than the manner in which Magistrates were now appointed throughout Ireland. It was generally done on the recommendation of county
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Members, who often confined their recommendations to those who were useful to them at elections, so that Magistrates were often nothing more than electioneering agents. This Bill had been introduced partly to remedy that evil, on the responsibility of a Government which had expressed an anxious desire to do all it could for the amelioration of the condition of Ireland. Having no doubt of the sincerity of Ministers, and seeing nothing palpably objectionable in the Bill, he thought it his duty to give it his support. If the Bill was found not to work well, it would be in the power of the House to alter or repeal it. He could not understand the objection of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell). The hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to wish, that what he called responsibility should rest upon an individual who might be sent from England, not knowing any two persons in Ireland, and who might be placed in a focus of political partisans without being aware of it—a case which, according to the hon. and learned Gentleman, had actually and very recently happened.
Mr. Ruthvendid not think the Bill would effect any important change. It would merely transfer to Lord-lieutenants the powers now exercised by governors of counties, and he could not conceive that one class of officers would be more vicious and corrupt than the other. Nothing could be worse than the system for a long time adopted in Ireland in appointing Magistrates. Persons were appointed without any view to their fitness or capacity, but merely in consideration of the quarter from whence the recommendation came. The magistracy was sought for as a sort of passport to a situation, and many held the commission without credit to themselves or advantage to the country. He considered the appointment of stipendiary Magistrates in the disturbed districts a beneficial measure, and he hoped it would be adopted in every district in which a doubt was entertained as to the impartiality of the local magistracy, even though that district might not be in a state of open insurrection. He hoped the Government would take the state of the Yeomanry force into its most serious consideration, and bring in some measure to remedy the evils which it created. If the yeomen were not allowed to take home their arms, the mischiefs which had occurred could not have taken place. It was a great mistake

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for Gentlemen to suppose, that the Yeomanry force in Ireland was amenable to military law. The hon. Member was proceeding to show, that the only punishment which could be inflicted on a yeoman for breach of military duty was dismissal from his corps, when
Mr. Dominick Browne Mr. Dominick Browne rose to order. He considered that it was most irregular to lead the House into a debate on the Irish Yeomanry, when another important question was under consideration.
Mr. Ruthvenonly hoped, that upon the return of peace and tranquillity, the Yeomanry force would be dispensed with; but that, whilst it was continued, some new regulations would be made for its government, and to prevent the mischiefs which had arisen from it. He also hoped, that the best persons that could be found would be selected as Lord-lieutenants, and that they would be fully impressed with the responsibility of the situation, and give no cause for suspicion that their appointments to the magistracy were directed by partial or corrupt feelings, or by any other motive than the benefit of the country.
Mr. Dominick Brownesaid, that he should certainly support this Bill, although he was far from considering it as an unmixed good. The Bill appointed Lord-lieutenants instead of governors of counties; and it must be obvious, he thought, to every English as well as to every Irish Member, that the individuals so appointed would acquire great power. He thought it very likely that the Lord-lieutenants of some counties would acquire sufficient influence to nominate one of the Members for the county. The power of Lord-lieutenants of counties in Ireland would be much greater than it was in England, especially from the circumstance of the office of Magistrate being more coveted by the middling classes in Ireland than in England. These would be evils undoubtedly; but he thought that they would be counterbalanced by the advantages of the Bill. The Bill would assimilate the government of counties in England and Ireland, and he was always glad to vote for measures which made such assimilations. He supported the Bill, however, on a higher ground—on the ground that he considered it as a prelude to the abolition of the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. As long as the Legislature of Ireland was here, the executive ought to be here also. If the present system of a
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privy council and an executive government resident in Ireland were continued, while the legislative body was in England, Ireland could never be any thing but a province.
Mr. Blackneyregretted, that so foul a system of appointing Magistrates, as he had known to have prevailed in the county of Carlow for many years, should have been tolerated by the Government so long. He hoped that this Bill would put an end to the system, and therefore he supported it. In Carlow they had not the honour of having any noble Lord among them, although they were sufficiently lorded over by six Governors, one of whom had been appointed only the other day, though for what purpose he was at a loss to imagine. This Bill must do good, because any change in the present system of appointing Magistrates in Ireland must be a change for the better. It was impossible that a worse system could be devised. From what he knew of the present Chancellor, he was sure that there could be very few appointments made by him which would not be satisfactory; but he must say, that a vast number of the appointments previously made in Carlow county were disgraceful alike to the county, to those who recommended, and to those who made the appointments. He believed, that the ferment which at present prevailed, was kept up by a party of that very Magistracy whose duty it was to allay irritation and to preserve the peace.
Mr. James Grattanwished to have the local administration of both countries assimilated and in that respect he believed, that this Bill would confer advantages on Ireland. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stanley) would explain to them more fully what was to be the nature and extent of the powers of these Lord-lieutenants. If it were intended to give to them, the control of the police, they would be armed with a power greater than any individual in this country possessed. In the event of the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland being abolished, this power would become much more formidable.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that the appointment of Lord-lieutenants of counties in Ireland had been the frequent subject of parliamentary inquiry, and of the recommendations of parliamentary Committees. The measure was one, too, which all the witnesses, of every condition, every sect,

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and every party, that had been examined before the various Committees on the state of Ireland, had united in recommending. The Bill would establish a salutary system of responsibility in the different counties throughout Ireland, with respect to the recommendation of persons to fill the office of Magistrates. The great evil of the existing state of things there was, that such recommendations now proceeded from irresponsible persons, and he had himself known an instance of an individual recommending the appointment of a person to the Magistracy, and subsequently disavowing having given any such recommendation. He agreed with his hon. friend opposite, in thinking that one good effect of the measure would consist in the power which those Lord-lieutenants would exercise with respect to the management of the Yeomanry, and he thought that it would be highly desirable, and most advantageous, that a salutary system of control, thus vested in the hands of respectable and responsible persons, should be exercised both, over the Yeomanry and the Constabulary forces. This measure was founded on a similar principle to that of two other measures, the Juries (Ireland) bill, and the Administration of Justice (Ireland) bill, which also stood for discussion this night—to wit, the assimilation of the laws in Ireland to those of England, and it constituted the first step towards rendering the government in both countries identically the same.
Mr. Leaderobjected to the extensive power and patronage which this Bill was calculated to place in the hands of a single individual in each county in Ireland. It would give the power over the Representation of thirty-two counties, he believed, to thirty-two influential individuals, with their train of followers and dependents. He looked upon the Bill with great alarm, and his fears were not removed by the declaration that the Bill was to assimilate Ireland to England. Embodied, as the nobility and gentry were, in feeling and thought, against the people, he could not hail with satisfaction a measure that gave them additional power to misgovern the country they had misgoverned so long. He preferred the appointment of the Magistrates being in the hands of the Lord Chancellor to placing it in the hands of the Lord-lieutenants. They would become possessed of the distribution of nearly a million of money, annually levied by Grand Juries
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in Ireland: they would obtain the control of the Police, and not only the appointment of Magistrates, but the selection of High Sheriffs would fall into their hands. They would have the power, therefore, of obliging or punishing, a vast number of persons, and would, in reality, have the government of the country in their hands. He defied his Majesty's Ministers to find thirty-two unexceptionable persons in the thirty-two counties in Ireland to discharge the duties of those proposed Lord-lieutenants; and seeing the immense power which this Bill placed in their hands, he could not suppose it possible, either that the Bill would work well, or be well received in Ireland. In the presence of his Majesty's Ministers, and in the midst of the Representatives of the United Kingdom, he declared it to be his unchangeable and conscientious opinion, that, to tranquillize Ireland, the condition of the great body of the people must be ameliorated; property must relieve poverty; and every bill introduced, and every measure proposed, would be unavailing, until employment was spread over the surface of the island, and the means of the country were made, as they might and ought to be, auxiliary to the regeneration of the country. It was in their power to achieve this great blessing, without encroaching on the treasury of the country, or the benevolence of the people. Ireland wanted an honest legislation, making the soil of the country the security for any sum raised for local improvements, and properly directing all the funds now raised for the employment and education of the people. He regretted to see this uncalled-for Act of Parliament preceding others of far greater, more pressing, and urgent importance. These precautionary measures, he knew, were alleged to have their origin in the alarming agitation and excitement at present existing in Ireland. He wished the King's Ministers not to delude or deceive themselves. That agitation was grounded on the distress of the people. The great popularity of the hon. member for Kerry was founded on that distress, and the hope he had held out to his countrymen of his being able to relieve it. Let them be assured, that the popularity of his hon. and learned friend daily increased with the distress of the country, and the impatience of the people to extricate themselves from it. There was only one way to reduce the hon. member for Kerry to

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the level of other men who deserved the confidence of the people, and that was, by rescuing them from the excesses of a partizan military force, and opening every possible avenue for productive labour and remunerative employment. He feared this Bill would have a tendency to defeat the benefit expected from the Reform Bill, and give Lord-lieutenants of counties the nomination to seats in Parliament. He, therefore, must join his hon. and learned friend in opposing it.
Mr. Cramptonsaid, that there was not a single power conferred by this Bill on Lord-lieutenants of counties in Ireland, which was not already exercised by the governors of counties, with the exception of the appointments of Colonels of Militia, which was at present in the hands of the Crown, and which this Bill gave to the Lord-lieutenants. He thought that one of its great advantages would be, that responsible persons would be placed in each of the counties of Ireland, for the purpose of recommending individuals to the magistracy. The leading evil of the present state of things was, that the power was exercised without the responsibility which should be attached to it. It was quite a mistake to suppose that, under this Bill, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland could only appoint noblemen to the Lord-lieutenancies of the several counties there. The Lord Lieutenant would have it in his power to appoint any individual whom he thought proper to the situation; but it was most probable, of course, that men of rank and station in the different counties would be selected by him to fill those situations. He was of opinion that this measure would be very useful to Ireland, and he trusted, therefore, that it would be passed.
Sir Edward Hayessaid, that the hon. member for Kilkenny had greatly magnified the powers which would be placed in the hands of those Lord-lieutenants. Several hon. Members, in the course of the debate, had made use of such expressions as would induce the people not to look to the laws for protection, but as a restraint, and to those who administered them, more as enemies than friends.
Lord Althorpsaid, that it had long appeared to him, that this would be a desirable measure to introduce into Ireland. From the experience which they had had of Lord-lieutenants of counties in England, he thought they might safely say, that the introduction of the same system into Ireland
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would not be followed by any of those evil effects which were anticipated from it by the hon. member for Kilkenny. He, for one, could not perceive how it was more likely that the Lord-lieutenants of counties in Ireland should possess the appointment of the Sheriffs, than the Lord-lieutenants in England, where, notwithstanding the long time that the system had existed, no such power was engrossed by them. He thought, that this measure was one of very great importance in the way of effecting an assimilation of the laws of Ireland to those of England. One great advantage of the introduction of such a system as this into Ireland was, that they would have persons of rank, station, character, and respectability, in the several counties there, whom they could make responsible for the recommendation of Magistrates in their respective counties, and who would take care that none but proper persons would be selected to fill that office. The Lord-lieutenants, in exercising the powers which would be intrusted to them, would, from their prominent and responsible station, be completely under the control of public opinion. One of the greatest evils existing in Ireland, but which, he was glad to say, was latterly fast diminishing, was, that no such salutary effects were produced by public opinion. That evil would be remedied by this Bill, which appointed responsible persons, who would be liable to that check. It would operate also upon individuals, who, from their local knowledge and situation, would be fairly responsible for those whom they should recommend to the magistracy, because they would be cognizant of their merits and character. Seeing that the system had worked well in England, and that they had had, from time to time, frequent complaints with regard to the magistracy in Ireland, he thought that a measure like this, which assimilated the laws of the two countries on the subject, would be attended by the best consequences.
Sir Matthew White Ridleysaid, he was glad to see a measure like this introduced, as the commencement of an assimilation of the laws of both countries, which he conceived to be a most desirable object. He did not object to the patronage which the Bill would bestow, and if the Lord-lieutenants of Ireland were not possessed of greater patronage than the Lord-lieutenant of an English county, the Bill could not be productive of any responsibility for

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either good or evil. He congratulated the Members of England and Ireland upon the introduction of such a measure.
Mr. Pagetobserved, that the Lord-lieutenants in England possessed great power in appointments to all county establishments. In his opinion, the appointment of Magistrates would be a power exercised with a much greater sense of responsibility in the hands of a Lord Chancellor than in those of the Lord-lieutenants of counties. In respect of rank and qualifications, the advantage would be altogether on the side of the Lord Chancellor, for Lord-lieutenants were generally men of high rank, and associated quite as little with the person whose claims to the magistracy might come under consideration, as even the Lord Chancellor. They must, of necessity, see with others' eyes, and hear with others' ears; and in what worse situation could the Lord Chancellor himself be placed? If they looked to the English magistracy, they would see, that it included a large proportion of the Clergy; and bearing that fact in mind, they must feel that the lieutenancy of the counties had not been placed in good hands. Not that he meant to cast any imputation upon the moral character of the clergy; but there was no one who paid the slightest attention to the subject, could fail to be fully aware, that the education, profession, and habits of the clergy, unfitted them for the duties of the magistracy. In his opinion, the Bill would prove anything but beneficial—anything but conciliatory. When one-third or one-half of the magistracy were of the clerical profession, what could they hope for?
Mr. Callaghanwas sure that every one acquainted with Ireland would be perfectly ready to admit, that the Magistrates appointed under the influence of the Castle in Dublin were such as the people could not confide in. He trusted that such a change would be introduced as would leave the Commission of the Peace in the hands only of those in whom the people did repose confidence. Under the old system, appointments were made on the recommendations of persons not at all responsible; and the information which Government possessed respecting the state of Ireland came from the worst sources. He would, in particular, instance the Doneraile conspiracy as a case fully sustaining the position for which he contended. He should support the Bill, for it would probably be attended
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with beneficial results. The Magistrates might be better, and they could not be worse than at present.
Mr. Hunthad listened with attention to what was to be the first measure of Ministers in favour of Ireland. He regretted that the first step was, in this particular, to assimilate the law of Ireland to that of England, although he was well aware, that in disapproving of the magistracy of the latter country, he should not ingratiate himself with the Assembly in which he spoke, for nine-tenths of the Assembly to which he addressed himself were in the Commission of the Peace. That part of the people which he represented were very far from satisfied at the manner in which Magistrates were appointed. At present the Lord Chancellor, the Lord-lieutenants, and the Magistrates, were appointed by the Crown; but when the people really had had Representatives that made the laws, they likewise had the appointments of Sheriffs and Magistrates; and now that Ministers, or the newspapers for them, had made the people believe, that they were to choose their own Representatives, they were beginning to reflect whether they ought not to be restored to their former rights with reference to the administration of justice. As to the notion of an appeal to the Court of King's Bench against a Magistrate, it was a gross farce. Without casting any reflection upon the clergymen who were appointed Magistrates, he must say, that he thought, and the people also thought, that they were not the best qualified for such offices, as they were, in consequence, perpetually led into disputes with their parishioners, or parties residing in their neighbourhood. He must be allowed to express his regret that such a Bill as the present should have been introduced by Ministers, as one calculated in their opinion, to benefit Ireland, but which he really considered fraught with evils.
Mr. O' Connell,in explanation, affirmed, that he had not said a word in defence of the present system. He was sure that few of the hon. Members of that House had yet read the Bill; and, therefore, they expected from it more than it would produce. Those who knew Ireland best would feel the difficulties which must inevitably attend upon the selection of fit persons to fill the office of Lord-lieutenant. Let his Majesty's Ministers, between that

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and the third reading, look out for fit and proper persons—and they might then, perhaps, discover that the matter was not quite so easy as they anticipated. It had been said, that the present Bill would tend to discourage absenteeism, but he thought the tendency might be exactly the reverse; for when the gentry and the high nobility of Ireland found themselves in their respective counties over-ruled by one individual, it would most likely have the effect of disgusting them, and driving them abroad. Understanding that there were hon. Members who had not read the Bill, he would not press his amendment to a division, but certainly, in a future stage, either on the bringing up of the report, or the third reading, he would take the sense of the House upon it.
Amendment negatived, and the House resolved itself into a Committee.
Colonel O'Gradyobserved, that by one of the clauses of the Bill, the Lieutenant of the county was to have the power of appointing the Custos Rotulorum, and Clerk of the Peace. He thought this too extensive a power to be placed in the hands of an individual; in his opinion, the appointment of the Clerks of the Peace should remain with the Crown, and he hoped Government would attend to the suggestion.
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, undoubtedly the appointment of the Clerks of the Peace was a question of some importance. He held in his hand the copy of a paper which had been laid on the Table, and by which it appeared, that the present Clerk of the Peace for the county of Limerick received that appointment when he was fifteen years of age only.
Colonel O'Gradysaid, the paper to which the hon. Member alluded, was laid on the Table in consequence of a motion of his, to bear him out in a statement he proposed to make in the appointment of the Irish magistracy.
Mr. Stanleyobserved, the case was well worthy of attention. He had not been aware of the appointment alluded to by the hon. member for Cricklade; it took place before his accession to office. The existing defect in the state of the law respecting the appointment of Clerks of the Peace, it was one object of the Bill to correct. It had been decided under the present state of the law, that a minor might be appointed to the office.
Mr. Sheilcomplained of the appointment
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of the inferior officers of militia being, according to the Bill, in the Lord-lieutenants of counties. Hitherto the Lord Lieutenant had appointed the Colonel, and the Colonel the Officers; he saw no advantage from the change.
Mr. Stanleysaid, it was true they had that power, and in that respect also the Bill resembled the law in England. It was a point of trifling importance, and had not been contained in the original Bill, but was introduced into it as an amendment in the House of Lords.
Mr. Sheilconsidered the alteration important; it might promote jobbing, which was not an exotic in Ireland.
Mr. Spring Ricethought, as the Committee had consented to the Lord-lieutenants of counties having the power of recommending Magistrates, surely no objection could be raised to their appointing officers of militia; under the existing system, certainly, several appointments had taken place which could not be defended.
Mr. Sheilsaid, the Magistrates were not paid, and they could only be appointed with the concurrence of the Lord Chancellor. The Lord-lieutenant, in their case, had only the power of recommendation, while a Lieutenant of militia received 45 l. a-year half-pay; and as the appointment was wholly in the Lord-lieutenant the patronage would be valuable.
Mr. Cramptonsaid, the appointment of militia officers would be, in point of fact just the same hereafter as it had been under the previous system, because the Lord-lieutenant appointed the Governor of the county, who was himself always the Colonel of the militia, and appointed the Officers. He thought the provisions of the Bill calculated to give the utmost satisfaction; and he saw no objection whatever to the appointment of the Officers of militia in the manner prescribed.
Lord Ebringtonsaid that, strictly speaking, the Lord-lieutenants in England had legally the appointment of the militia Officers; but, in practice, he attended to the recommendation of the Colonel of the regiment to which the Officer was attached.
Lord Killeenwished to be informed who would have the appointment of Vice-lieutenants of counties, in the absence of the Lord-lieutenants of counties?
Mr. Stanleysaid, by one of the clauses, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had the power of such appointment.
Mr. James Grattanobserved, that there were already too many clergymen in the commission of the peace in Ireland, and he therefore wished a clause to be introduced to prevent such appointments in future.
Mr. Lefroyobjected to the proposition of the hon. Member; there were many places in Ireland in which, unless clergymen were appointed, no Magistrates whatever could be had.
Mr. Dominick Brownehad certainly known places circumstanced as the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken described, and therefore clergymen were necessarily appointed; but where it was possible to obtain other eligible Magistrates, clergy men ought not to be appointed, and he was happy to state, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland was of the same opinion.
Mr. O'Connellhad no doubt there were places in which no other substantial persons to fill the office of Justice of the Peace could be found than clergymen, and it generally so happened in districts where they had full leisure to attend to their duty as Magistrates. The appointment of Rectors so circumstanced might be tolerated, but when they came to appoint Curates it was too bad. He knew two or three instances of Curates, who were said to be employed at salaries under 80 l. per annum, who were Magistrates. He could not, however, approve of a clause prohibiting all clergymen from being appointed; that would be too general. He should only recommend, that the utmost care should be taken in making the appointments.
Colonel O'Gradywould wish to see the qualification for Magistrates increased.
Mr. Stanleythought the qualification should be rather too low than too high, because, from the statement they had just heard, it must be evident, that in many parts of the country, if they required a high qualification, they could have no Magistrates.
Mr. Leadersaid, the qualification ought to be at least 150 l. per year. There was no county or barony in Ireland but what contained resident gentlemen of twice that income.
Mr. Dominick Brownethought the qualification of a Deputy Lieutenant should be the same as Magistrates for Road Sessions, which was 500 l. a year freehold property, or 300 1. a year of fee-simple.
On the question that the Chairman report the Bill without amendment,
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that before the question was agreed to, he should observe upon one part of it, which the hon. member for Cork had dwelt upon as being an advantage—namely, the having the Lord-lieutenants of counties made the organ of all communications between the county and the Government. At present, Magistrates addressed the Secretary of State, as well as the Magistrates at Bow-street, if any circumstance called for immediate communication, and the effect of the present Bill would be simply to relieve the Government and the Chancellor from the responsibility under which they now lay. It was well known, now that a Lord or a Squire of high connection laughed at inquiries into his conduct, and if a Lord-lieutenant of a county had friends complained of, the difficulty of redress would be much increased. Suppose, in the case of the Doneraile conspiracy, the proposed system had prevailed, either Lord Doneraile, or Lord Shannon, would have been the Lord-lieutenant of the county, and the connections of both were involved in the proceedings; the consequence would have been, the interposition of the Lord-lieutenant, which would, at the same time, exonerate these parties, and screen the Government from any responsibility. He would, on the first convenient occasion, bring before the House the case of Leary, who had been transported for his alleged share in the Doneraile conspiracy, with a view to show the partizan evils of the Magistrate system in Ireland, and that a Lord-lieutenant in each county could not be an efficient remedy. The peculiarity of Leary's case was, that, contrary to three remonstrances to the Irish Government of Judge Pennefather, who tried him, founded on the fact that three Juries acquitted parties on the very same evidence which was brought against Leary, and that the character of the witnesses was more than questionable, while that of Leary, a wealthy farmer, aged seventy-five, was above suspicion, the sentence of transportation was enforced by the late Irish Government. He introduced this irregularly, but he did so for the purpose of drawing the hon. member for Cork's attention to the subject, to show how little beneficial the appointment of Lord-lieutenants would be.
Lord Killeensaid, although he agreed with his hon. and learned friend in many of his remarks, yet he trusted, that the good sense and good feeling of Lord-lieutenants

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and their deputies, would render for many communications to the Government unnecessary.
Mr. Callaghansaid, as he had been so personally alluded to by the hon. member for Kerry, he must say a few words. The main reason why he wished to have Lord-lieutenants was, in order to avoid the busy officiousness of that class of persons calling themselves active Magistrates, and the chief cause for his thinking so was that Doneraile conspiracy. To his knowledge, the active agents in that conspiracy were still paid by the Government. He had seen them walking in and out of the Bride-well, as well dressed and as high in their bearing as any Gentleman in that House. He could prove that, and he mentioned it that some inquiry should be instituted by the members of the Government as to the source from whence these individuals derived the emoluments they received. He pledged himself to this fact, that the parties who had been servants of the Magistrates near Doneraile, and who had been supported from the period when they gave their information, were still maintained by the Government, and paid out of the pockets of the people. He knew Leary, a man the best and most punctual farmer in his neighbourhood, who had the best character from his landlord, but who, like many other honest people, being dissipated in his habits, and extremely hospitable in his disposition, had fallen the victim of those who entered into a conspiracy to swear against him; and these parties, though their evidence had signally failed in other cases, were yet supported out of the purses of the people. If the hon. member for Kerry would move for an inquiry into this, he would give him his cordial support.
Mr. O'Connellaccepted at once the support of the hon. Gentleman; and he put it also to the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, whether it was not his duty also to aid in the inquiry. Leary had been the first man tried; the Jury believed the witnesses, and he was found guilty of a foul conspiracy. The second Jury disagreed; another Jury was discharged, from the illness of a Juror; on the trial one of the men was acquitted on the same testimony by which Leary was condemned; and a third trial took place at the next Assizes, when all the prisoners were also acquitted. Thus, three out of four Juries discredited the witnesses for the Crown. The Judge,
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as he had stated, remonstrated three times with the Government upon Leary's transportation. Sir Henry Hardinge had just then accepted the office of Secretary in Ireland; and upon his (Mr. O'Connell's) arrival at Cork, he wrote to the gallant Secretary, who most promptly answered him, stating that the affair had been decided upon before he arrived in Ireland; but at all events, the application was too late, as the convict-ship sailed with Leary on board, the day the letter was written. He would move for the communication addressed by Baron Pennefather to the Irish government upon the subject.
Mr. Humeconsidered that the Irish government ought to give some answer to the heavy charge, of these discredited witnesses being still maintained out of the public revenue. He should require to know how, or from whence, this money was supplied.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that he could give no explanation on the subject, as the matter had occurred before he had taken office. He would, however, look into it, and communicate with the hon. member for Kerry.
Mr. Callaghanwould pledge himself to the fact, that these persons were still maintained at the public expense.
Mr. Humemust again press upon the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, if he wished to keep the sources of justice free, the necessity of inquiring into the alleged fact, that suborned witnesses were maintained at the public expense.
The House resumed; Bill reported without amendment.

PUBLIC WORKS IN IRELAND.
Mr. Stanley Mr. Stanley moved the Order of the Day for the further consideration in Committee of the report on the Public Works (Ireland) Bill.
Mr. O'Connellinquired whether the Commissioners were to have salaries, and who was to be at the head of the commission?
Mr. Stanleysaid, it was the intention of Government that they should be paid, but no provision was made for their salaries by this Bill. The amount was to be submitted to Parliament in annual votes. He wished to state, that the number of Commissioners was to be reduced from five to three, by the desire of the gentleman who was to be employed as head of the commission, and who wished for as little assistance as possible. That gentleman was

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Colonel Burgoyne, of the Engineers, who sacrificed a place of greater emolument for this, and he had no doubt his character and qualifications for the office would be found of a superior description.
Mr. Humeunderstood, that two Boards of Commissioners were to be abolished, and that some of the members were to have superannuations: he wished to be informed who they were, and whether they were not competent to act under this Bill, so that the public might save the amount of their pensions.
Mr. Stanleysaid, there were four Commissioners of one Board, who could make no claim for superannuation allowances. There were three of another, who had never attended to the duties of office, and yet were in the receipt of salaries. The substituting of one set of Commissioners for these two, who would not only do all the duties the two Boards had performed, but would also include the Post-office department, would cause a saving in the public expenditure of 1,300 l£. a year.
Mr. Humesaid, that was no answer to his question which concerned individuals only, and he desired to know how many of the old Commissioners were to have superannuation allowances, and whether, instead of receiving these, they could not perform the duties attached to the new board. He feared they might hereafter be told, if they appointed new Commissioners, that they must still maintain the old ones.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that when they came into the Committee, his right hon. friend would produce the name of every Commissioner, his present salary, and claim for superannuation. The Commissioners for Inland Navigation had no such claim, the object for which they were appointed being of a temporary nature. The other Board was different, the provisions of an Act of Parliament by which they were appointed, being different.
Mr. Stanleyobserved, that two of the Commissioners to be appointed had already public situations, the salaries of which would be saved on their receiving their appointments. Indeed, one of them gave up a situation of superior emolument.
Mr. Alexander Dawsonsaid, the measure had been brought forward as one calculated to relieve the distresses of Ireland; he feared it could have no such effect. The principle on which it went was a loan and the utmost care was taken by the Act, that the money to be advanced was to be
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repaid with interest. He could only say, Ireland might as well obtain 500,000 l. from the Jews in the Minories, and could obtain it on as easy terms. The measure would neither promote the execution of public works, nor alleviate the existing distress. He was one who conceived the measures of the present Government, with respect to Ireland, were based on a shortsighted and most unstatesman like policy. Instead of bringing forward some comprehensive plan for the relief of the poor of Ireland, by the developement of its native resources, Ministers were merely treading in the steps of their predecessors with some petty pence-table temporary expedient, which could be productive of no permanent advantage. It would not even save a starving population, or keep them from inundating this country with paupers. The proper principle was, so to expend money that it might contribute to the permanent improvement of a country. If they looked to the reports of the surveyors appointed during the vice royalty of the Marquis Wellesley, they would there see a proof of his assertion, for by the money expended in the western districts of Con-naught and Munster, the revenue had actually increased three or four fold. They would find villages had grown up where no house had previously existed, and that the habits of the people had been most materially amended. They might, by such means, judiciously employed, disband part of the Yeomanry and police force, for no fears could exist when the people were employed and contented. Previous to the Union, and after the Statute of 1779, Ireland made more progress in ten or twelve years than any other nation in Europe. That was effected by the principle laid down by the Irish Legislature, to expend some part of the public money in improving the natural advantages of the country, and that it was wise to encourage individuals to employ their capitals in the promotion of national works. What was the result? The Grand Canal, a most important means of communication was undertaken and completed principally by the means of individuals. Subsequently, however, a more sound principle had been laid down, which it was his desire to see imitated. It had been then arranged, that when public works were proposed, a satisfactory estimate of the probable cost should be produced, and on two thirds of the amount being advanced by individuals, the

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remaining third should be paid forthwith out of the public treasury. This had produced infinite good. If they looked abroad, they would find the Government of this country pursuing the same principle, by forming great canals in the American colonies, without the paltry consideration of pounds, shillings and pence. Would they not act in the same generous manner to the sister country? He objected to the present measure from its being illiberal in its principles. He proposed, that instead of a loan, a grant of 500,000 l. should be made for the erection of public works in Ireland
Lord Althorpwas ready to admit, that great part of what the hon. Gentleman had said was well founded, for experience had proved, that large grants of money, if judiciously laid out, might, in the course of time, produce considerable revenues. Many large private fortunes had been created by such methods, but he was afraid that, in the present state of the finances, it was quite impossible to grant such a sum to Ireland, even with the hope of its becoming hereafter productive. As they were unable to grant money, they proposed, which was the next best thing in their power, to lend it; and the hon. Gentleman should remember, that circumstances at present were different from the circumstances of the country before the Union. He had little doubt but that Ireland would receive almost equal benefit from a loan as from a grant; and he hoped, that the giving employment to the poor would improve their condition.
Mr. Leaderwas prepared to admit, that the present condition of Ireland rendered it imperative on every Representative of that country to hail with satisfaction any measure calculated to extend employment and augment the stock of national wealth. In the many public meetings which had been held in Ireland, attended by the most influential resident landed proprietors, it had been agreed, on all hands, that a permanent national loan fund, reissuable as the instalments were paid, and again lent under suitable restrictions, would afford immediate present relief, and confer lasting benefits on Ireland. It was a common thing for hon. Members in that House to rail loudly at Irish discontent, at the existence of crime, the insecurity of property, and the emigration of the pauper peasantry to England, by which the English labourer was thrown out of
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employment, and the amount of poor-rates increased. But, while these unhappy circumstances were generally admitted, it was obvious that, until the present measure, there had been no attempt at a remedy. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, the member for the city of Limerick, that a loan would give present relief, and he was not disposed to cavil at the terms, or object to any reasonable provisions which might be introduced into the Bill, to secure the due application of the advance, and its punctual repayment. It was, however, his duty to press strongly upon his Majesty's Ministers the urgent necessity of making parishes and districts in Ireland, capable, by legislative enactment, of assessing themselves for local improvements, which had become indispensable for the improvement of Ireland. In what other way could the country be reclaimed, or the people employed? Local assessment for local improvements was not a new principle—it had been tried and had worked with facility and the greatest success in Holland. Since the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, had brought in his Bill, an intelligent friend of his (Mr. John Musgrave), the brother of the member for the county of Water-ford, had been to Holland, for no other purpose than to procure the most accurate information as to every particular connected with the system of public works in that enterprising and prosperous country. As he had been favoured by Mr. Musgrave with a letter on this important subject, he would shortly state the particulars on which that gentleman laid the greatest stress. His letter, and the valuable information he had given to the Committee sitting to inquire into the state of Ireland, had entitled him to the gratitude of every person interested in its prosperity. "The leading principle," he said, "of their (the Dutch) system, which is the growth of centuries, has been, 'to allow local authorities to regulate local concerns.' Each district, whether it be a parish or a province, has had the management of its own parochial or provincial concerns, with as little external influence as possible; but where public works of any magnitude were contemplated, they have, since 1795, had the assistance of a scientific general Board, called the Waterstaat, or Board of Public Works. Each province previously possessed a Board of a similar kind. The commission appointed to draw up the

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fundamental law, in their Report, published in 1815, consider the Provincial States to have been one of the most important and useful of their ancient political institutions, and attribute to them much of the wealth and greatness of the United Provinces. The president of that commission, Count Hogendorp, who is well known as one of the ablest statesmen and writers in Europe, yesterday told me, that the powers of these Provincial States have been too much curtailed, although they are still very great. Measures of local utility can always be better digested and decided upon by local assemblies, than by a national legislature, whose time must be insufficient even for the due consideration of laws which affect the general interests. The Dutch provinces vary considerably in population and extent; that of South Holland containing 480,000 inhabitants, while Drenthe contains only 63,000. Every province has its own States, consisting of deputies elected by the nobles, by the cities, and by the landholders, the number of deputies from each class being fixed by law for every province. They all sit together, and the governor of the province presides. All public works, charities, tribunals, schools, &c. &c. within the province are subject to their control; but works of merely local interest are under the management of local Boards or Corporations. In cases of repair, the Provincial States act by their own authority, but new works must be approved of by the Waterstaat. The dykes, and works for drainage, are generally managed by local associations, and are supported by taxes levied upon the lands, or other property benefited by them, such property being designated sometimes by the Provincial States, and sometimes by Royal Ordinances. To each province there are attached one or more engineers, who are approved of by the Waterstaat, and paid by the province; but there are also superior engineers, who are paid by the Government for a more general superintendence. The Provincial States nominate, from among themselves, a permanent deputation, who constantly assist the governor of the province, and have extensive powers, for the proper exercise of which they are responsible to the Provincial States, at their annual or other meetings. All the accounts of local authorities, which are of a public nature, are investigated by these States; and those of the States themselves
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are audited by the National Chamber of Accounts. In short, every province is, in most respects, a miniature of the kingdom at large. The revenues of the Provincial States arise—First, from an addition of six per cent to the national taxes within the province, which is collected by the government, and paid over to the provincial treasury; secondly, from public works, and other property belonging to the province—an instance of a like nature occurs in Cheshire, in which the tolls of the Weaver navigation yield more than 23,000 l. per annum, in aid of the county expenditure; and, thirdly, from direct or indirect taxes, which have been submitted to, and approved of, by the King. Their powers of taxation, with the consent of the King, are very extensive, although much less than they were previously to 1795, when each province was nearly independent. The produce of such taxes is applied, under their direction, to objects of provincial or merely local utility. The ten northern provinces contain less than 2,500,000 of inhabitants, of whom more than one-third are Catholics. They consist of between 6,000,000 and 7,000,000 of English acres, or little more than Con-naught; and the soil of many very extensive tracts, particularly towards the east, is as miserably poor as that of Cunnemara. The whole is divided among nearly 380,000 fee-simple proprietors. The population is, on the whole, at least as dense as that of Ireland, but nothing can be more humiliating to an Irishman than the striking contrast between the poverty of his own countrymen and the general appearances of comfort and wealth in the ten northern provinces, where their comparative natural advantages would lead one to anticipate directly the reverse. Although the poor have not here any legal right to be supported by their neighbours, their wants are relieved by public and private charities; and, in the year 1828, I find that more than one-seventh part of the entire population of the Netherlands received assistance, from permanent funds and voluntary contributions, to the amount of nearly 900,000 l. The rich provinces of North and South Holland are, together, much less than your county, and consist wholly of islands, which are liable to be inundated by the Rhine, or by the ocean. Many parts of them are at least ten feet beneath the level of the lowest tides, and others are composed of sands, which would be

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blown away, if great precautions were not adopted to fix them. M. Wyebeking, an eminent German writer, has calculated, that if the public works, which exist in these ten northern provinces, were to be now executed, they would cost upwards of 350,000,000 l. sterling; and this statement has been fully corroborated to me by the best authority here. This expenditure has, in fact, gradually created the United Provinces out of a territory, which originally was not more favourably circumstanced than Connaught; but the greater part appears to have been expended in North and South Holland. A system, which has rendered such a country, although constantly struggling for existence against the sea, or against powerful enemies, one of the most productive parts of Europe, is deserving of deep attention; and some parts at least may be usefully imitated in Ireland, whose unequalled natural advantages have not, by similar institutions, been made available in promoting the happiness of its inhabitants. When any new public work is proposed in Holland, such as an extensive drainage, or canal, or embankment, a portion of the expense is almost invariably defrayed, either from the national or from the provincial revenues, without requiring repayment from those who undertake such works. The Dutch have learned, by experience, that such prudent liberality is amply repaid by the additional revenue which arises from the increased wealth and prosperity of the improved districts. The wisdom of this policy has, even in the United Kingdom, been abundantly confirmed by the valuable statements of Mr. Telford, relative to the effects of the Highland roads and bridges, and by Messrs. Nimmo and Griffith, in their reports upon the public works which have been executed in the west and south of Ireland. These instances are principally of importance, from their demonstrating that the amelioration of the moral habits and conduct of the inhabitants, who are within the influence of those public works, fully keeps pace with the physical improvement of the country." He felt it his duty to press on the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, and on his Majesty's Government, the propriety of adopting some such system in Ireland. If it had worked so well in Holland, why should it not be adopted in Ireland? He wished the House to
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recollect, that in the provinces of Ireland in which industry received no assistance, the revenue was decreasing; and where industry was aided, the revenue was increasing. He held in his hand a paper, strikingly illustrative of the truth of this assertion, and which was eminently calculated to furnish strong reflections on the present state of Ireland. It was a comparative view of the Customs and Excise duties in the several ports and revenue districts of Ireland in 1820 and 1829, made from official documents. In this document, the melancholy and undoubted gradual decline in the Customs and Excise in the province of Leinster was most striking—the small advance in Ulster and Munster was likewise deserving of attention, and it deserved the most serious reflection, that the only part of Ireland in which there had been any increase in the revenue worth mentioning, was the province of Connaught, where local improvements had, for the last ten years, been encouraged by public money. He was sure, that Ireland was capable of repaying, in revenue, in the consumption of British manufactures, and in increased strength to the empire, whatever might be expended on her improvements. He assured Ministers that the urgency of the case did not admit of delay—if Ireland was to be tranquillized, and England relieved from the heavy infliction of an annual invasion by Irish paupers, this great blessing could only be achieved by the determination of his Majesty's advisers, to secure the affections of the people of Ireland, by raising them to the level of surrounding nations. Their hard lot awakened the commiseration and sympathy of every friend of humanity. They must be no longer neglected or overlooked—the reduced prices of landed produce made it necessary to glean the last grain of the harvest to supply the urgent demands of the clergy and gentry, who were compelled to tear from the people the very food they produced, to enable the absent and resident proprietors to purchase the necessaries of life.
Sir John Bourkecommended the caution with which Government was proceeding in making any application of the public money towards the relief of Ireland. He was perfectly convinced, that when the head of the Board, to the care of which the fund now about to be granted was committed, came before the House, with a report of the proceedings of the Commissioners,

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and their result, a great encouragement would be given to the employment of public money, in future, in a similar manner. He was convinced, that the greatest benefit would be found to result from this loan. To provide employment for the poor, and facilitate communications were the two things now to be desired for Ireland. Although the sea on the Western coast abounded with fish, and the shore with weeds most useful for manure, yet from the want of capital, and the absence of the means of communication with the interior, the inhabitants were unable to avail themselves of the advantages. Wherever money had been expended in the promotion of public works, there the condition of the people had improved in a greater proportion than could have been expected, while the revenue was increased. This was proved in the cases of Connaught and Galway. In one town of the latter county, where public money had been expended for improvements, the revenue had increased within a few years, from 600 l. to 900 l. With these facts before him, he felt it to be his duty to support any measure which had for its object the promotion of public works in Ireland.
Mr. Spring Ricethought, that instead of indulging in this desultory conversation, the House had better proceed at once to the consideration of the report.
The House resolved itself into a Committee.
Mr. Alexander Dawsonthought the observations of the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, were no apology for the smallness of the grant. Where so much as 3,000,000 l. or4,000,000 l. were annually drawn from Ireland in the shape of taxation, England was bound to do more for the promotion of public works in that country than this Bill proposed. The simplest remedy for absenteeism would be, to allot some small portion of the revenue derived from Ireland to the improvement of her national resources. He was satisfied, that great advantages would accrue to both countries, if some measures were taken to facilitate the conveyance of corn from the inland districts of Ireland to the manufacturing counties of England. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, "He had no money, and could not afford any for a grant: his answer to that was, allow a lottery for Ireland, and you will have money enough for that and many Other useful objects.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, it was curious to observe the different propositions that were made for the benefit of Ireland. His hon. friend who had just sat down, thought that a system of gambling, introduced into that country, would be a remedy for some of its evils. A lottery was his panacea. Again they were told truly that Connaught although one of the most distressed and impoverished districts of Ireland, was still one of the most productive to the revenue. The hon. member for Kilkenny attempted to account for this by the amount of public money expended there, but he remembered when there was not a village in Con-naught without a private still. The reduction, however, of the duty on whisky had rendered it no longer worth while to resort to illicit means of obtaining it; and the consequence had been, that 50.000 l. or 60,000 l. a year had been added to the revenue derived from the province of Con-naught. That, he was afraid, was the sole cause of the increase to which the hon. Member had alluded. As much money has been laid out in Munster as in Con-naught, and yet there the revenue had not increased. He admitted the validity of many of the objections taken to the Bill, still he was ready to accept it, because he was of opinion, that any increase, however small, in the improvement of Ireland, ought not to be rejected. The peasantry of that country were in such a condition, that something must be done for their relief; and if this Bill should be the means of furnishing any portion of them with employment, so far at least it would be productive of good. Was there a probability of obtaining an immediate grant he would press for it. But as the noble Lord had declared that the finances of the country were not in a condition to warrant him in making an absolute grant of any considerable sum, he had only to take the next best thing he could get which was the present Bill. He believed it would give employment to a small extent, and therefore he would support it.
Mr. Stanleydid not wish to enter into any discussion unconnected with the immediate subject before the Committee, but he certainly was of opinion, that very large sums of money might be beneficially laid out in Ireland. His noble friend had stated very truly, that in the present circumstances of the country, he could not call for a large sum by way of grant. At all events, if this money was to be lent,

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although it would for the time have the effect of increasing the burthens of the country, yet it should be recollected, that it would not be lent, except under certain restrictions; and after it was paid, the principal and interest would be a sufficient return to the country for the money laid out. He rose, however, for the purpose of saying, that he thought it very probable that some portion of this grant would be borrowed on Grand-Jury assessments, though, at the same time, he was far from saying, that the money so borrowed would be a large portion of the whole; but there were persons who could afford to give security for the performance of public works independent of any Grand Jury assessments, which could not take place before the next assizes in March. What he desired to say was, that before that time he hoped very great improvements would be made in the existing system of the Grand Jury laws, which would tend to remove some of the heavy burthens now imposed on the peasantry. He would not enter into the subject further than to say, that an enactment relating to the proposed improvements in the Grand Jury laws was almost ready to be laid on the Table, but he abstained from presenting it until an opportunity could be found for discussing its principles by Gentlemen conversant with the making of these laws.
Mr. George Robinsonwas aware, that the English Members generally might not wholly object to this sum being made a grant instead of a loan, but while they were on the subject he must press his opinion that the landed proprietors of Ireland, should be made to contribute to the support of its poor. He alluded to this subject solely for the purpose of most strongly protesting against England being called upon to vote large sums of money, for the relief of the Irish people, exclusive of considerable sums sent over by charitable individuals, while the property of the absentee proprietor was not liable to support the paupers engendered on his own estates. The serfs, he might call them, of the absentee, were compelled to cross the Channel in large numbers, at certain seasons of the year, to obtain the means of paying their landlords' rent. They depreciated the value of labour in this country, and by these means made the landed proprietors here contribute to the support of the Irish poor, as well as their own. The wages abstracted by the Irish poor from our
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own labourers, had to be made up out of the poor-rates. In fact, the English proprietor partly contributed to pay the high rents which the absentee Irish proprietor obtained for his land. It was now too late to attempt to apply palliatives to the state of Ireland. That country was daily increasing in wretchedness. He had at all times wished to benefit her, and as he understood the money now proposed to be advanced would be repaid, he would not object to the measure, and had only made these remarks in consequence of the observations of the hon. member for Louth, against the principle of which he most earnestly protested.
Mr. Spring Ricebegged to call the attention of the Committee to the question now before them, which was one particular clause of the Bill, while hon. Members were indulging in desultory observations applicable to the whole measure.
Mr. Blackney,notwithstanding the remarks of the right hon. Secretary, must make a few observations upon the speech of the hon. member for Worcester. In Ireland, a sum of 120,000 l. was taken from the pockets of the poor, and retained by the treasurers of counties, for purposes they only understood. In the county which he had the honour to represent, there was 8,000 l. or 10,000 l. locked up in this way, to the very great prejudice of the people, and he must confess, that as an Irishman he felt himself much hurt that an English Gentleman should stand up in that House and say, the people of Ireland were dependent upon this country. The generous disposition of Englishmen had been shown when the Irish people needed it, but he hoped another part of their character was, not to boast of their good works. If Ireland was governed as it ought to be, England would not be required either to lend or give her wealth—she had enough of her own.
Mr. George Robinsonwished to explain. He was sure the House understood him merely to allude to Ireland applying for relief, towards which its own landed proprietors did not contribute.
Mr. Blackneysaid, that during the very short time he had been in the House he had remarked, that whenever any measures relating to Ireland were brought forward, they met with comparatively little attention. He insisted that Ireland had abundant resources to support herself, and all that appertained to her, if she was only

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treated with fair play, and he must indignantly repel the imputation that Ireland, as a country, was in any degree whatever a burthen upon England.
Mr. Humethought, the hon. Member, (Mr. Blackney) had altogether misunderstood everything which had passed that evening. He trusted, however, as he was so anxious to justify the character of Ireland, that he would be satisfied to see it placed on the same footing as Scotland. Why had not English institutions been adopted in Ireland as they had been in Scotland? The hon. Gentleman had informed them, and no doubt his authority was very good, that in his county, a small one, there was a treasury of 10,000 l.; now, if they multiplied this by thirty counties, they would find lying in Ireland, actually unemployed, a sum of 300,000 l. If, by any maladministration of the law, this money could not be applied to any useful purpose, that maladministration should be immediately remedied; in which case, according to the statement of the hon. Member, Ireland would want no assistance. She would then be placed in a situation in which he was most anxious to see her; but as a man who wished well for Ireland, he must say, that when the hon. member for Kilkenny came down, night after night, and asked them to do this and that, he was placing her in the situation of a beggar. He really thought, too, the hon. Gentleman wholly mistook the object of this Bill. He fully concurred in the propriety of rendering to Ireland the same assistance as to England and Scotland, in advancing all public works required to forward the interests of the country; but, notwithstanding he entertained these opinions, he must object to the present Bill. This declaration might, perhaps, be considered strange, but he would explain to the House why he held these opinions. The Irish Government, they all knew, had, over and over again, lent itself to complete systems of jobbing, which this Bill would perpetuate. Ever since he had been a Member of that House, the evils arising from certain institutions in Ireland had been constantly pointed out, and he therefore was surprised that his Majesty's Government had not brought in a Bill to remedy them. By this Bill a new Board was to be created in Ireland; but seven years ago there was a distinct Board in Ireland for the management of the receipts of Excise, and everything connected with
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it, and the duties of this Board were transferred to one in London, because it was found that nothing could be done in Ireland without being locally mismanaged. What occasion, therefore, had they to create a new Board in Ireland, when there was one in England intrusted with the issue of public money, which was ready to receive applications to carry on public works, without the operation of any influence either at Edinburgh or Dublin? Why were the works in Ireland to be subject to local influence? The effect of the Bill would be, to create new Commissioners, new establishments, and new accounts, to be placed, in a great degree, under the control of the Lord Lieutenant, who was to approve of, and sanction, all charges to be referred quarterly to the Treasury in London. What business could the Lord Lieutenant have with the issue of this money? Had any individual anything to do with the issue of money for public works in Scotland? The subject should be wholly referred to the Commissioners already appointed. Why open new accounts with the Bank of England, when the Inland Commissioners were ready to attend to the distribution of the loan without additional expense? It was not becoming to see officers of engineers appointed, when there were so many individuals ready and competent to give an opinion on the practicability of carrying any work into execution. He objected to the whole principle of this Bill, but not to the advance of money on proper principles. He would agree to the advance of 1,000,000 l. instead of 500,000 l., if it were necessary, but he required to have it placed on the same footing as a similar; loan for England or Scotland; he required it to be kept free from favour or partiality, and placed under the control of a Board established many years, the members of which were perfectly competent to the discharge of their duty. How the Government could want new appointments at all he was at a loss to understand, when there was a Board at present constituted ready to perform the duties without additional salary or trouble. He begged the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to explain on what principle they were to have new accounts and new Commissioners. If the Lord Lieutenant was allowed to interfere, the management of the money would not be satisfactory. He should propose that the provisions of the

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Act of 3rd George 4th, be extended, and that those Commissioners should be allowed to issue one million of money, in Exchequer bills, to Ireland. It would be the most independent course to place Ireland on the same footing as England and Scotland, and then all partiality would be done away. He had no objection to the return taking place in twenty-five years, although the expectations of Government would not be quite fulfilled, if the imaginations of those by whom this measure was advocated were founded on such extravagant premises as it contained. He had but little hopes of success, but thought he might be supported by Irish Members, when he said, that he was prepared to advance double the amount proposed by the measure, provided such advance was to be regulated on rational principles.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he hoped to satisfy the hon. member for Middlesex, that the Bill was founded on sound principles, and that the alterations he recommended were unsound. If his hon. friend would look at the money clause, he must be satisfied that the proceeding he advocated as the most preferable, was not neglected. The Treasury were responsible for all disbursements, and to prevent every suspicion of favouritism, all applications, whether rejected or received, were to be laid on the Table. If it was then said that the Board was not to be trusted, who must the House confide in, for that establishment was under their complete supervision? With respect to the next remark of his hon. friend, that he was ready to agree to a million being advanced, provided it was placed under the control of the Board established in London, which had the general management of monies issued for public works in England and Scotland, that part of the business certainly might be intrusted to it, but that Board must be as wholly incompetent to manage the general business to be regulated by the particular Board about to be created (and which it must be understood was to have attached to it all the duties which had been imposed upon two other Boards, which by this Act were to be abolished) as it would be, if the works were placed in Upper Canada. Whether taken on the grounds of expediency or expense, the present measure was the most feasible that could be adopted. His hon. friend had referred to the Grand Jury laws without, however, noticing that the
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House had been apprised by his right hon. friend, the Secretary for Ireland, that great improvements were contemplated in their machinery. If they were asked why they did not wait until this improvement had taken place, the answer would be, that such a proceeding would delay most important public works, which were wholly independent of Grand Jury presentments. He alluded to the works of Galway, Sligo, and several others, the security of which could not be doubted. It surely would not be said, because the Grand Jury laws were to be reformed in the ensuing spring, that this Bill was to be delayed, at the risk of all sorts of disorders prevailing throughout the winter, for want of employment for the labourers. His hon. friend must at once perceive, that it would not be the means of adding sixpence to the Grand Jury assessments, because the Summer Assizes were over, and the new Bill would be before Parliament previous to the commencement of the Spring Assizes. The hon. member for Middlesex ought to have deferred his objections until the Commissioners had been appointed, and he was not correct in supposing, that the Treasury was not strictly looked after, or that the provisions of this Bill could be carried into effect by the gentlemen who undertook the issue of Exchequer bills in Broad-street.
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, he quite concurred, as he hoped the House did, in the views taken by the hon. member for Middlesex. He had felt much surprise at the opinions delivered by the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last, when he recollected what was the Report of the Committee on Irish Salaries, to which he would refer the right hon. Gentleman. It was his own Report, drawn up by himself. He would there find it affirmed, that the Commissioners for public works never attended at all, and never did any duty whatever. If he was not mistaken, the right hon. Gentleman there recommended to Government the entire abolition of that establishment, the expenses of which amounted to 4,856 l. per annum—the duty being the annual distribution of about 3,500 l. of public money. In 1829 this small amount was reduced to 2,000 l., and yet the salaries remained the same. He would, therefore, ask, whether the Commissioners of Inland Navigation could not be removed? There were abundance of means to have their duties performed without a new Board

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being established, as would appear to every one who would take the trouble to read the Report. The London Commissioners were intrusted with the annual distribution of 3,500,000 l. public money, and their average expenditure was about 1,500 l. a year. Let the House compare this with the expenditure and distribution of the Commissioners for Inland Navigation in Ireland, and he was sure, that it would conclude that the whole measure required the utmost consideration.
Mr. Alexander Dawsonsaid, he certainly wished Ireland and Scotland to be dealt with equally. A million of money had been granted for the Caledonian Canal; and one half of the cost of roads and bridges had been defrayed at the public expense. He entirely approved of the undertaking, as it had very materially contributed to the civilization and improvement of the northern parts of Scotland, although the returns did not exceed 3,000 l. a-year.
Mr. Humesaid, his hon. friend mixed up things together which were quite different. He wished to consider the subject then before them, without any reference to other subjects.
Sir George Clerksaid, he could not permit one observation, relating to the Caledonian Canal, which had fallen from the hon. member for Louth, to pass without some comment. He had said, that he considered that work as a strong proof of the advantage of expending public money in the improvement of the country. He and others took a very different view of the case. It had never been a favourite with Scotch Members, and had its origin in the caprice of certain other persons, who fancied it would benefit the empire at large. On such representations 1,500,000 l. had been voted and expended, and the result was, that the tolls barely paid the expense of levying them. Could there be a stronger argument against the outlay of public money than this? The professed object of the canal was, to furnish employment to the Highlanders of Scotland, but not a man of them had been employed: the whole of the labourers were furnished by Ireland, who inundated the country as soon as the rumour went abroad that such a work was to be undertaken. He must add a few words respecting the subject now before the House. He concurred with the hon. member for Middlesex in the belief, that the proposed Board was wholly unnecessary,
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and that it would be better to double the amount, and place its disposal in the hands of known Commissioners, rather than establish a set of new ones. The only argument in favour of the newly-created Board was, that it would personally decide whether undertakings were desirable or not. He doubted this. They would soon find dependants upon whose information they would rely. If Ministers must have a new Board, surely they might select the Commissioners from some of those whose offices were to be abolished, and thereby save their pensions and superannuation allowances. He considered that the only object was, to create patronage, but he would not oppose it further than thus to state his opinions.
Mr. Warburtonthought it far preferable to advance money for public works by way of loan than by gift, and he hoped to convince Irish Members that such was the case. It was well known, that in the latter case, persons of superior influence obtained all the advantage of the outlay, and the public only derived the advantage of the temporary employment it created, while the substantial benefits would remain in the hands of those who possessed influence. In short, it would be a job. If, on the other hand, the money was advanced as a loan, it would be employed in the embankment of rivers, the construction of roads and bridges, and other works of public utility. The money advanced for the Caledonian Canal had been partly a gift and partly a loan; it was never expected, that a return would be made for the money expended. Although he did not go to the extent of the hon. member for the county of Edinburgh, in affirming that that work should prevent them from engaging in others of the same description, yet it furnished a strong proof that Commissioners who were not responsible for a return of the money, employed it carelessly. As a loan they must be cautious how they advanced it, and whether the security for its return was sufficient. On every point of view, therefore, he was in favour of a loan rather than a grant, and he hoped the Irish Members would be of the same opinion.
Mr. James Grattantook the same view of the case as the hon. member for Bridport, and was fully convinced, that a loan, placed in the hands, and to be used under the authority, of a body of intelligent men, responsible for the proper application of

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it, was preferable to an absolute gift. Employment, or Poor-laws, to support the starving peasantry, were their only resources, and large loans, judiciously applied for the furtherance of the former, was infinitely preferable to the certainty of the latter. If the money to be expended was an absolute grant, it would merely go to improve private property at the expense of the country. He approved, therefore, of the propositions now before them, and would support the further views taken by the hon. member for Middlesex, to increase the grant if placed in proper hands. He should prefer the money being placed in the well-tried hands of the London Commissioners to being intrusted to new men. He had seen the evils of bad management in the misapplication of money advanced with the best intentions, and he was therefore anxious to prevent similar results. In one respect, he feared, the Bill was defective. The money would get into the hands of Grand Juries, who could generally give the best security, but were so addicted to jobbing, as, he feared, would prevent the full benefit of the advance being obtained by the public; and therefore, when they came to that part of the Bill, he should call the attention of the House to that point.
Mr. Wysesaid, if the opinion of the Committee were as unanimous as the right hon. member for Limerick seemed to suppose, in favour of the principle of the Bill, he should certainly deprecate, as ill-timed and unnecessary, any further discussion, and urge, without delay, its immediate consideration; but as far as he could perceive, it was not yet decided whether the principle of the Bill was good or bad. Some hon. Gentlemen contended against the object, others against the machinery, others against both. Each of these questions was an ample subject for debate, and as he considered that several mistakes had been made by those who preceded him, he must revert to them. The object of the present Bill was, to promote public works in Ireland, and thereby stimulate the industry and civilization of individuals. If this object could be attained, every one must admit, that it would be laying a deep and broad foundation for the future happiness of Ireland. On this point he hoped, with the extended information they possessed, that very little doubt could exist. Let any one
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examine the reports of Mr. Griffith, Mr. Munro, Mr. Grantham, Mr. Killaly, &c., and he would see ample evidence of the benefits, which could be conferred upon the most ungrateful soil, and the most secluded and remote districts of the country by a judicious outlay of capital. The great belt of bog stretching across the centre of Ireland, situated most advantageously for draining, by its level above the sea, its contiguity to great rivers, the nature of its material, the proximity of admirable manures, was sufficient to allure and justify the largest expenditure of human industry and capital. Look to the intercourse, whether by land or water, what a number of links and chains of communication might be established. In England, 4,800 miles of inland navigation stretched its various ramifications in all directions, and diffused activity, wealth, and prosperity; in Ireland there was not more than 490. The whole expenditure on the former had amounted, according to Mr. Nimmo, to 30,000,000 l., and in Ireland to not more than 3,500,000 l. The Shannon offered 234 miles of continuous navigation; 2,000,000 acres were situated on its shores; yet the report of Mr. Williams proved the disgraceful neglect into which it had been suffered to fall, through the apathy of Government, or of Companies to whom Government had transferred its rights. Not more than one bridge was to be found. Now, this separation of province from province was seriously injurious to the commercial interests, as well as to the moral habits of the people. The late distress in Mayo partly arose from the want of communication. Potatoes, which could not be had there, except at the highest famine price, were selling in the neighbouring districts for less than the ordinary value. In Tipperary, at no great distance from the Shannon, they scarcely repaid the price of cultivation. To improve the communication between different parts of Ireland, and in particular to improve its inland navigation, was a mine of wealth which might be explored with the greatest advantage, both to the Government and to individuals—to enrich the State and mend the fortunes of private men. The hon. member for Galway had asserted, that Connaught had advanced in prosperity; and certainly these new districts had advanced beyond the most sanguine expectations, by the simple opening of

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communications with more cultivated portions of the country. He need hardly instance the case of Clifden, put forward with so much force by Mr. Nimmo. In a few years a town, not consuming, at first, a single article of exciseable commodities, returned to the Exchequer no less than 6,000 1. per annum. Look again at the fisheries, which, even with so niggard an allowance as 5,000 1. per annum, granted for a short period, had shewn a constantly-augmenting prosperity. But the hon. member for Edinburghshire, probably, was incredulous, and measured every expenditure of public money by the scale of jobbing in the projection and management of the Caledonian Canal. But there were other works executed in Scotland, to which the hon. Member might have adverted. He might have referred to the Reports of the Highland Road Commissioners, especially to the Report of Mr. Telford, in 1803. The expense of these roads was trifling, indeed, compared to their utility. Nearly 1,000 miles of road were executed for the small cost to Government of 150,000 1., and the advantages in a country, which, in 1702, was altogether without roads, were so great, that Mr. Telford declares it was advanced thereby at least 100 years in civilization. The Commissioners declared, "That the want of further roads and communications has hitherto proved the greatest obstacle to the introduction of useful industry there; and that every attempt for that purpose must fail, until regular and easy communication is afforded from one part of the country to the other, and more especially from remote points, where there is the best field for useful exertion, to the present seats of capital and industry;" and they stated, "That the empire at large being deeply interested in those improvements, as regards promoting fisheries and increasing the revenue and population of the kingdom, justifies Government in granting aid towards roads and bridges, in a country which must otherwise remain, perhaps for ages, imperfectly connected." Such were the objects contemplated by the present Bill; objects which had not only been regarded in Scotland, and in England, but in France, in Holland, in Sweden, in America, in every country in the civilized world, as of the utmost moment to the well-being and security of the State. But the exception taken was not so much to the object, as to
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the machinery by which it was to be attained. He did not assent to every portion of that machinery, although he could not acquiesce in the opinions of the hon. member for Middlesex. If they were simply about establishing some mode for the issue of 500,000 1. Exchequer-bills in Ireland, the reasoning of the hon. Gentleman would be perfectly just; but they were about to establish a Board, which should have under its superintendence the great roads, the inland navigation, the fisheries, the public works, and the superintending the issue of the funds already granted, for carrying on all these. Did the hon. Gentleman seriously think, that one individual, though gifted with the powers and activity of the hon. Gentleman himself, would be capable of conducting all these? But surely said another hon. Gentleman, all these have been provided with their Boards already. Very true; but these Boards did very little, and were to be suppressed. The Bill provided for the consolidation of the duties and powers of each in that of the new Board. There were thus two purposes for which this Board was to be established; the one, the issue of these bills, the other the administration of these departments, and what might be sufficient for one, would not be for both. The hon. member might think that such Boards had never much to do—they certainly never did much—but what they neglected to do was important, and ought long since to have obtained the most solicitous attention of Government. Take the instance of the Shannon; would any man say, that the navigation of that river was not of the utmost importance to Ireland, and that Government, in whose hands it was, should not suffer it one hour longer to be neglected? So it was with their fisheries; laws had been made which it was not possible, under the present circumstances of destitution, for the fishermen to obey. Every description of fishing, but deep-sea fishing was prohibited; but where there was a dangerous coast, no piers or safety-harbours, and few boats, deep-sea fishing was impossible. But the chief difference among hon. Members appeared to be, as to the manner in which this issue ought to be made. Some hon. Members were for an absolute grant—others for a loan. He had more than once expressed it as his opinion, that whatever money might be allotted to Ireland, should be divided into

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three portions, one to be applied in conditional grants, that was, half to be granted on the other half being subscribed by the applicants; the second, absolute grants to Government, for the execution of works on its own responsibility, particularly for the extension of the great mail-coach communications of the kingdom—the great lines of internal navigation, and other objects of a general and national character, the expenditure repayable by tolls upon such works (Government being, of course, accountable to Parliament for such expenditure and the receipts); and the third, applicable to loans, on joint or individual security. The present Bill applied 500,000 l. to the last of these purposes, but not more than 50,000 l. to the first, for which he conceived there was a far greater necessity and demand. The Highland Roads Commissioners, and the Fishery Board of Ireland, found such applications of public money productive of the greatest public and private benefit. Grants to Government, for specific works, on their own responsibility, would, he hoped, be attended to. The navigation of the Shannon, of which Government was proprietor, or rather trustee for the public, demanded immediate care. With regard to the application by way of loan, various objections had been urged. The former misapplication of similar grants had been alluded to. It was very true, that large portions of the 500,000 l. recently granted were directed to purposes very different from those originally intended. A portion was borrowed by the Manchester Rail Road Company, through the influence of the late Mr. Huskisson; another portion was still locked up, intended for the Ulster Canal Company, though it was said, the original shareholders never completed their subscriptions. Much too large a sum, he also understood, was applied to the building of court-houses and gaols; yet, with all these drawbacks, it was incontestible, that very essential and permanent advantages had resulted to the country from such grants. A strict eye was now fixed upon such disbursements; and public opinion operated with more efficacy, and to a greater extent, on the conduct of public officers than formerly. He was not so sanguine, indeed, as to expect that this Bill would, as by miracle, exorcise from the land that overwhelming pauperism which now infested it. Some extensive and searching remedy, he was afraid, would be necessary, and,
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ere long, must be applied. But whether poor-laws be introduced into Ireland or not, the present measure could not be otherwise than beneficial.
Mr. Sadlersaid, he had employed much time and attention in endeavouring to improve the condition of the Irish peasantry, and he feared the details of the present Bill would go in a great degree to defeat a measure he contemplated, for the establishment of a system of Poor-laws in that country. He saw no other objections to the principle of the Bill at present before them, and should not oppose the amount of the loan being increased, if the details of the operation could be improved; for to them he objected. Ireland was in such a situation, that no other measure than an improved system of Poor-laws could permanently relieve her. The present measure would, at the best, only alleviate for a time the distress, to return hereafter with a greater pressure. The present Bill tended to establish a kind of state-pawnbrokers. These grants always led to gross jobs: on this account he disapproved of them. The best men that Ireland had produced were of the same opinion. It was most necessary, before they gave power into the hands of untried men, that they should be very cautious. He did not intend to oppose the grant, but he should certainly persist in introducing his plan respecting a system of Poor-laws for Ireland the first opportunity, and should, in general, adopt the same view of the subject as was taken by the Irish Parliament about fifty years before.
Mr. Sheilwas decidedly in favour of the Bill. He certainly thought, that the Irish were entitled to some share of the patronage of Government, as far as was consistent with the proportion of contribution she paid to the general exigencies of the United Kingdom. All the expenditure of the State ought not to circulate exclusively through the great departments of the metropolis. If there was to be patronage, let it not be monopolized. He should undoubtedly prefer a gift to a loan, as some compensation for the enormous drains Ireland was exposed to. Not less than 3,000,000 l. a-year had been for many years spent by Irishmen in England, without any equivalent in return. The Irish quit-rents, too, had lately been sold for a sum of 80,000 l., and no account was given of the appropriation of this money, further than that it was understood

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the amount had been expended to increase the magnificence of London. He was happy to perceive, by the Debate of this evening, that Irish affairs were likely to be discussed hereafter with moderation and temper.
Mr. Courtenaymerely rose to make an observation in reply to the hon. Member who spoke last but one, and who seemed to think the details of this Bill would obstruct the introduction of his measure for establishing poor-laws in Ireland. He took a different view of the subject, and thought it would facilitate the progress of that measure. He conceived that any measure which tended to give employment to the lower orders of that country, must facilitate the introduction of a system of Poor-laws. He agreed in the opinion, that the granting of money in the way proposed by this Bill, was likely to encourage jobbing. He believed that such would be the result. For thirty years that he had been in official employment, he had seen during three months more jobbing in Ireland than he had witnessed during the remainder of the thirty years.
On the question that the blank in the Bill be filled up with the number 500,000,
Mr. Humesaid, he had no objection to double this amount, if it was placed in the hands of the Commissioners sitting in London. He could not comprehend what occasion there could possibly be for creating the unnecessary Board proposed. It was certain, from the evidence taken before the Committee on the Irish Estimates, that the duties performed by the Inland Navigation Commissioners might be transferred without any difficulty whatever. They had no satisfactory evidence of the duties to be performed by the three individuals about to be appointed; besides, the issue of Exchequer bills, and the management of the works, were two perfectly separate and distinct things. It was impossible, therefore, for him to consent to any one clause in this Bill; at the same time he wished it to be understood, that he was willing to grant 1,000,000 l. if it were necessary, provided the control of the money was placed in proper hands, and not vested in a new set of Commissioners. He would put it to the right hon. Secretary at War, as a member of the commission for simplifying accounts, whether he could read this Bill, and not at once perceive that the whole arrangement was directly contrary to the principle on
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which they ought to proceed? He could only say, that it was diametrically opposed to the principles on which Government had hitherto proceeded, and on which he had given them credit for intending to act.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that the Board alluded to by the hon. member for Middlesex had peculiar duties to discharge, which were quite sufficient to occupy the whole of its time.
An Hon. Memberwished to know what those duties were, and he thought it might be advisable to ascertain them by a Committee up-stairs.
Mr. Stanleysaid, the Board had the duty of superintending all public works in Dublin; it took charge of all affairs relating to the Shannon, and superintended generally all the internal affairs of Ireland of this description. He thought, the Irish Members would agree with him that such duties could not be conducted with advantage to the public interests by any other establishment.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he did not yet understand what public works there were to attend to.
Mr. Stanleysaid, all the public building's connected with the Government.
Mr. Humewas still of opinion, that the duties could be performed in the manner he had suggested, and that no other Board was necessary.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, there was no time limited in the Bill when these issues were to cease. That was a defect, the time ought to be correctly specified. As he understood the wording of the clause, it would imply, that there was to be a permanent transfer of capital from England to Ireland, which was objectionable.
Mr. Lefroysaid, it would be preferable to have an efficient Board in Ireland to an inefficient one here. He suspected, however, that one object of the Bill was, to make a provision for certain individuals, by giving them salaries. The utmost care should be taken that competent persons were appointed.
Mr. Humewished to know to what period the issue of these Exchequer bills was to be limited, and he presumed, that the usual rules applying to bills of this character would be observed.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonreplied, that the period would not exceed three years.
Mr. Humethought it was most important that efficient persons should be appointed Commissioners, and he had

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some doubts, from what he had heard, that this was not likely to be the case. He wished to know the names of the two additional Gentlemen to be appointed, making five instead of three.
Mr. Stanleyreplied, that one of them was Mr. Radcliffe a member of the present Board of Inland Navigation, who had been brought up as an engineer, and was conversant with public accounts.
Mr. Humesaid, it was a singular appointment to take a member from a Board which it was the right hon. Gentleman's object to show was inefficient.
Mr. O' Connelldoubted very much whether Mr. Radcliffe had ever been an engineer.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he had been an engineer, and was employed under Colonel Burgoyne during the late war. He had been appointed to his present place by the late Government.
Mr. Robert Gordonremained of opinion, that the contemplated Board was unnecessary. He held in his hand a statement of the expenditure by the Board of Inland Navigation. There were two Commissioners, with a salary of 525 1. per annum each, and their chief business was to superintend the management of 1,698 l. a-year. It certainly could not be necessary, on the abolition of such a Board, to establish a new one to perform such duties.
Mr. Warburtonwished to know, what occasion there was for any other persons but engineers to be appointed.
Mr. Stanleyin reply to the hon. Gentleman, must acquaint him, that the Board would have very difficult and complicated public accounts to keep, and persons not accustomed to them would not be competent to arrange them. Five Commissioners were necessary to manage the business.
Mr. Humesaid, that if Ministers really wished to appoint efficient Commissioners, they could not do better than follow the course which he was about to suggest. The wording of the clause at present was—"It shall and may be lawful by warrant or warrants, under and by virtue of the Royal Sign Manual, to nominate." Now, there he would stop, and insert something to this effect:—"The Commissioners now acting under the 57th George 3rd and 3rd George 4th, to be the Commissioners to execute the provisions of this Act." The effect of such an amendment would be, to transfer the duties to the Commissioners
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in London, who would carry on the business, as far as the advance of money was concerned without any additional expense. He held in his hand a copy of the Act, to which the names of the Commissioners were affixed; and they might appoint Colonel Burgoyne, or any other officer, to reside in Dublin, and report on the fitness and expediency of the different undertakings. He hoped, that one simple plan of this description would be adopted in England, Ireland, and Scotland, when the whole business could be conducted with much less expense, and great advantage to the country.
Mr. Cramptonbegged to assure the hon. member for Middlesex, that the Board of Works in Ireland had very important duties to perform, the whole of the public works were under its charge.
Mr. Humesaid, would his hon. friend have the goodness to point out these works? He knew of none but those connected with Phœnix Park and the Castle.
Mr. Stanleysaid, the Board must sit in Ireland to superintend the proceedings. They had 310 miles of road under their own care and management a part of which consisted of the Holyhead road, the other parts were divided into small parcels which required much more care in their arrangements than if they were connected. He begged to call his hon. friend's attention to the papers on the subject of inland navigation, by which he would perceive that the duties of the Board were of an important character. The money would be demanded probably for objects of a local nature as well as for public works. Of course these must be judged of on the spot. His hon. friend said, they might have a superintendant, but that would not answer; they must have one always in Dublin, and another ready to go when called upon. This Bill, however, did not include salaries for the proposed Commissioners: when they came to the Miscellaneous Estimates was the proper time to discuss that question.
Mr. O'Connellwished very much to know where the roads were which this Board had under its superintendence. The roads in general were turnpike trusts, or under Grand Jury assessments. At least, all that came within his knowledge were so.
Mr. Stanleycould not mention where every one of the roads was situated. He knew of several, however; among others, were the roads from Limerick to Ashbourn,

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and from Kilkenny to Kenmare, which were under their management.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, the right hon. Gentleman was, no doubt, correct. The Grand Jury presents, the county pays, a third party superintends, and finds a fourth party to contract for the execution.
Mr. James Grattansaid, such a divided responsibility was absurd, one efficient person was much better calculated to get the business properly done. An able engineer, such as Colonel Burgoyne was described to be, would provide proper persons to act under him.
Mr. Jephsonsaid, he believed the Ireland Commissioners acted through the agency of Surveyors appointed by themselves, and the Board to be appointed would do the same. It would, therefore, be of little consequence where the Board sat. The arguments of the hon. member for Middlesex had great weight; the business should be conducted by some general system, applicable to all parts of the United Kingdom. He did not see the necessity of separate Boards, which only served to prevent any efficient control being had by that House over their proceedings.
Mr. Humesaid, the Bill professed to have three objects in view, which were, an Issue of Exchequer Bills, the Management of Public Works, and the improvement of Inland Navigation in Ireland. These ought to be under separate heads; but when it was proposed to establish a Board in Dublin to embrace all these, its machinery must be complex, and confusion and irresponsibility would be the consequence. If the authors of the measure wished to avoid all suspicions of patronage, if they were anxious to have the public accounts simplified, and responsible officers to call upon, they pursued the worst possible method to obtain their object. If they really wished to obtain these desirable ends, combined with an economical application of the public money, let them appoint an able intelligent and experienced engineer to superintend the executive part, and he understood they could not make a better choice than Colonel Burgoyne; allow him to select proper persons to carry his orders into execution, and make him responsible to, and communicate directly with, the Treasury, or with the Board already established in London, and direct the documents and accounts to be placed on the Table of the
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House. There would then be no occasion for all the machinery to be created by the Bill. Something like such an arrangement, it was his opinion, from all he had heard in the course of the debate, would be the most advisable proceeding.
Sir John Bourkesaid, if the Board was to be a deliberative body, it ought not to consist of less than three members. He approved of the establishment, and thought the personal attendance of the various Members would be necessary in different parts of Ireland. There were works required on the Shannon, such as Piers, embankments, &c. which would employ many persons. At the same time other works might be going on in distant parts, so as to make it impossible for one person to attend to the whole.
Mr. Callaghansaid, that with whatever parties the direction might rest, they ought to be resident in Dublin. A Board of Commissioners in London would not be efficient for the purposes required. He by no means, however, approved of the machinery to be established, it looked like providing places for several Gentlemen. The engineer to be appointed should not be one of the Commissioners, but act under them. As to the remark that this bill did not provide salaries for the Commissioners, if once they were appointed, the House would have little discretion left as to paying them. He should recommend postponement of the measure.
Colonel O'Gradycould by no means consent to leave the whole business to one engineer, he thought the appointment of a Board necessary.
Mr. Humesaid, they much underrated the talents of Colonel Burgoyne, if they did not think him adequate to superintend the application of half a million of money, when they knew that Mr. Telford was found competent to direct the expenditure of six times that sum. He should therefore move as an amendment, that to carry into effect the appropriation of 500,000 l. in Exchequer Bills to be advanced for public works in Ireland, the Commissioners appointed by the 57th Geo. 3rd, and 3rd Geo. 4th be appointed. These were unpaid Commissioners. He did this to make provision for the appropriation of Exchequer bills. This might be done by the Commissioners in England, and they might appoint Colonel Burgoyne to superintend the works in Ireland, as Mr. Telford had been appointed in England.
Mr. Spring Ricecontended, that it would be absurd to re-appoint these Commissioners. Some of them were dead, and of the disposition of the others to act the House could know nothing.
Mr. Humesaid, his hon. friend had given an additional reason to postpone the consideration of this subject. The extra trouble to the Commissioners already existing would be very trifling. All applications made to them would be referred to their engineer, and he had no doubt they would be ready to act if requested.
Mr. Robert Gordonwished to inquire from the right hon. Secretary, if a Board of unpaid Commissioners could not be found in Dublin?
Mr. Stanleythought it would be very difficult.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, as they had much important matter connected with the Re-form Bill to go through the next day, and as it was very late, he would move, that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
The House resumed; the Committee to sit again on Monday next.

CANADIAN REVENUE BILL.
The Bill went through the Committee, and was reported without amendment.
On the question that the Bill be engrossed,
Mr. Humesaid, he had no objection to it, but he wished to take that opportunity to inquire whether any thing had yet been done as to the interference of the Church in Upper Canada? the people were not satisfied on that account.
Lord Howicksaid, the case was under consideration, and he hoped would be finally arranged before next Session.