Commons Sitting of 12 April 1831

MINUTES.
The LORD ADVOCATE took the Oaths and his Seat for Malton; Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL took the Oaths and his Seat for the county of Clare.
New Writ issued for the borough of Shaftesbury, in the room of Mr. E. Dugdale, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
Bills. To promote Public Works in Ireland, read a first time. To prohibit the Growth of Tobacco in Ireland, Committed. Lunatics, and Post Office Sale, read a second time. Indemnity, read a third time.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. SPRING RICE, the dates on which the Duties on Slates, Tiles, and Bricks, were first imposed in the United Kingdom, and the several alterations which have since taken place; stating the gross and nett receipt of revenue in each year, on each article, in each kingdom; the number of Tiles made in the year 1830, in the United Kingdom; stating the number of each kind, and the rate of duty charged per thou- sand in each; also, the gross amount of the duty for the year, and the amount paid for drawback on Tiles exported, distinguishing each country, and the number of Tiles exported; also, a copy of a Minute of the Board of Treasury, dated 24th December, 1830, relative to the discontinuance of unnecessary oaths in the departments of the Customs and Excise.
Petitions Presented. Against the Tax on Steam Boats, by General GASCOYNE, from the Hundred of Wirral (Cheshire). In favour of Reform, by Lord ALTHORP, from Newport, Pratt, Lutterworth, South Kilworth, and Berwick:—By Mr. SPRING RICE, from the Chamber of Commerce at Limerick:—By Sir WILLIAM INGILBY, from various parts of Lincolnshire:—By Mr. LEFROT, from Drumhone, county Donegal, in favour of the Kildare Street Society. Against it, by Mr. SPRING RICE, from Tullors. Against the Reform Bill, by General GASCOYNE, from the Corporation of Liverpool:—By Mr. WILSON PATTEN, from Manchester and Salford. By the same hon. Member, from Cotton Spinners and Manufacturers of Bolton, complaining of parts of the Cotton Factories Bill; from Weavers and others engaged in the Cotton Trade, in Wigan, Blackrock, and another place in Lancashire, complaining of Distress, and praying for the imposition of a Duty on the exportation of Cotton Twist. By Mr. SAUNDERSON, from the town of Cavan, praying for the right of returning a Member to Parliament.

PETITIONS AGAINST REFORM.
General Gascoyne General Gascoyne, in presenting a Petition From Merchants, Bankers, and others of Liverpool, against the Ministerial Plan of Reform, stated, that the petitioners,
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though by no means averse from a plan of moderate Reform, nor hostile to the principle of the Bill, disapproved of many of its details. They objected to such a sweeping disfranchisement as was proposed by the measure, and particularly to the alteration which it would effect, in the established proportion of Members from the different parts of the United Kingdom. He fully agreed with the petitioners in the validity of this objection, and thought, however enthusiastic the people of Eng-land might be in favour of the Bill, that their opinion would undergo some alteration when they considered how large a number of Members was to be taken from this country, for the purpose of bestowing a portion of them upon Scotland and Ireland. The Bill would give additional Members to Ireland and in the conduct of its inhabitants he saw nothing to deserve such a mark of favour. He was convinced that when the people of England, who were now clamorous for the Reform Bill, under stood that it deprived that part of the empire of seventy-two Representatives, they would oppose it. The petitioners did not oppose the transfer of the elective franchise from insignificant places to large and populous towns and cities; but, as before stated, they were hostile to so sweeping a disfranchisement as, was now intended.
Mr. O'Brienregretted, that any observations should be made which might tend to sow dissensions between England and Ireland. He thought that Ireland was entitled to have a greater number of Members than at present. He was not aware of any reasons why, if Ireland was not fairly represented, the international compact should not be reviewed.
Petition read. On the motion that it be printed,
Mr. O'Connellobserved, in reference to what had fallen from the hon. and gallant member for Liverpool, that it would greatly increase the discontent and dissatisfaction which already prevailed in Ireland, if it were known that such language with respect to that country had been used within those walls as they had just heard. He contended, that Ireland ought to have many more Representatives. In that respect, the Union was a most unjust and unfair measure towards Ireland, That part of the empire, considering its great population, ought to have more than 100 Representatives. There ought to be a num-

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ber of Representatives adequate to the protection of the essential interests of Ireland in that House.
Lord Encombesaid, that before the Easter recess he had called the attention of the House to the necessity of having laid before them new and more perfect returns of the population of the different boroughs in England that were likely to be affected by the Reform Bill. Certain papers had, he observed, been produced, but they did not appear to have been drawn up on any satisfactory system. In some instances the population of the parish, in others the population of the borough, was given: and certain notes which were appended to the population return of 1821 were omitted. Now, though in the hurry of making up the documents which had been first submitted to Parliament, those notes had been left out, it was not fit that they should be omitted in those that were subsequently produced. He therefore wished to know, on what ground it was, that the new return was called a corrected return.
Lord J. Russellsaid, he should be most happy to give his noble friend every information in his power, with reference to those returns, and the basis on which they were founded. Ministers had endeavoured to procure as correct a return as possible of the population of each city and borough which sent Members to Parliament. That return was made out at the Home Office; and, as soon as it was obtained, a letter was addressed from the Home Office to the returning officer of each borough, for the purpose of ascertaining whether the limits of the borough continued the same as they were at the time of taking the population return in 1821. The sum of the information thus received, which was not altogether very accurate, was to be laid before the House in a separate paper. The papers to which the noble Lord alluded were corrections of the population returns of 1821, so far as had been required, stating merely, in the first and second line, the population, sometimes of the borough, and sometimes of the parish. All that was to be found in that book of the population, with respect to particular places, had been made use of; and therefore the noble Lord would find, in the line of observations, many of those remarks which were contained in the notes to which he had referred. The letters which had been received from the parties thus applied to, and which would be laid
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before the House, were now in the course of being printed. Ministers had selected from the population return every thing that regarded each particular borough, the more especially, in consequence of the notice which had been taken of the borough of Calne, in order, as far as it was possible, to come to a just and proper determination, and to place each particular borough on its due footing. Any memorial coming from any particular place, and complaining of inaccuracy in the existing population return, would be anxiously attended to by his Majesty's Ministers. He thought it right to state this, because he believed the fact was not generally known to the parties interested. Ministers had also felt it to be their duty to consider well the petitions presented to the House on this point. There were, then, four data, on which they meant to proceed in ascertaining the number of inhabitants in different boroughs:—1st. The original population returns; —2nd. The corrected population returns;—3rd. Memorials laid before the Secretary of State, by persons well known, complaining of inaccuracy in the existing returns;—and 4th. The petitions presented to the House on this subject. Carefully looking to all the documents, Ministers hoped that they should be able to make an efficient correction, with reference to the places contained in the schedules A and B; so that a fair and equal course should be adopted with respect to the different boroughs concerned. He now begged leave to mention an instance or two, to show the way in which this would be done, and how information, which was at present deficient, might be enlarged and finally acted on. There was now before the House a petition from the burgesses of Buckingham, showing very clearly that certain parts of the town of Buckingham were not contained, as they ought to have been, in the population return—and which, if added to the existing return, would, they believed, raise the population to 3,000. The whole of this statement was so particular and so clear, that it contained, in his opinion, sufficient reasons for taking the borough of Buckingham out of the schedule A. Again, with respect to the borough of Truro, a memorial had been presented to the Secretary of State, which would also be laid before that House, showing in like manner, that the whole population of the town of Truro was not fairly represented in

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the returns of 1821. On the other side, a memorial had been presented from the town of Guildford, stating that it contained a greater number of inhabitants than was set forth in the returns. That document averred that some streets which ought to have been included in the returns were omitted. The memorialists did not, however, state what part of the town those streets were situated in, neither did they say what was the total amount of the population, according to their view, in 1821. Under these circumstances, unless some other petition was presented to the House, or a different or more explicit memorial was laid before the Secretary of State, it would be quite impossible to omit Guildford from the schedule B. He mentioned this to show to the House on what grounds he meant, on Monday next, to remove from the schedule any borough which could make out a proper case. He thus gave notice to such boroughs as could make out a clear case that their population had been under-rated, and that they contained more than 2,000, or more than 4,000 inhabitants in 1821, in order that they might apply, in a proper form, to the House. With respect to taking the population, in relation to the borough or parish, Ministers thought it right to adopt the same rule with regard to all boroughs; because, in many places, it was impossible to distinguish the borough from the parish, especially when the parish bore the same name as the borough. There were one or two other points on which he wished to say a few words. The whole Bill had, during the recess, been maturely considered by his Majesty's Ministers. They had examined it most attentively, to see whether they could make any improvement in it. With regard to the wording of the bill, considerable alterations had been made, but nothing whatever had been done to alter the principle of the measure, as it had been originally laid down. In substance, three or four points, of no importance as to principle, but all of importance as to particulars, were altered; and these he would explain in detail on Monday next. He was ready to explain those points at the present moment, but he thought it would be more expedient to do so on Monday. There were three or four notices of instructions to the Committee on the paper, which it was right to say had been done under the consideration of his Majesty's Ministers.
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One of those instructions related to continuing the right to vote, under certain re strictions, to persons who might have acquired that right by birth or servitude. Now without going so far as that instruction went, the question would receive that determination by which Ministers hoped to reconcile that which was due to justice and equity with the essential principle of the Bill. With regard to another, and a much more important part of the measure, —namely, the number of Members of which that House should consist—he could not deny that while many persons represented themselves as favourable to the Bill they objected to having the number of Members reduced. The Government, however, looking to the whole subject, with reference to the advantage of the public interests, and to the prompt and speedy execution of the public business in that House, were persuaded that a reduction of Members would considerably assist in attaining those desirable objects. But, at the same time, they were not prepared to say that this was a question such essential and vital importance, that if the feeling of the House were strongly shown in a desire to keep up the present number, they might not be induced to relax their determination on that point. The hon. and gallant General had referred to many details of the Bill, and he had no fault to find with the hon. and gallant General for any criticism which he might offer on the measure, because he had for some time past expressed himself favourable to plans of Reform. He, therefore, listened with every kind of respect to the suggestions of the hon. and gallant General, which were certainly worthy of consideration. But while he said this, he wished to terminate his observations by distinctly declaring, that with respect to all that was essential to the principle of the Bill, his Majesty's Government saw no reason whatever to alter the determination which they originally came to; but, on the contrary, from what they daily and hourly heard and saw, they were more and more convinced, that the principle was eminently calculated to promote the liberty, the happiness, and the prosperity of the people of this country. An hon. Baronet, it appeared, wished to keep up the whole of the existing boroughs. To such a proposition as that, Ministers could never agree. They had, he thought, adopted a safe and a wise course, by con-

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tinuing such boroughs as had a certain degree of importance attached to them, and doing away with those which were the most insignificant and inconsiderable.
Sir E. B. Sugdensaid, the statement which had just been made by the noble Lord, proved the justice of what he (Sir E. Sugden) had observed on a former occasion, when he asserted that it would be impossible to proceed with the existing population returns. He now found that it was intended to restore some of the boroughs originally marked out for disfranchisement, or partial disfranchisement. This arose from the extreme imperfection of the information which had been laid before them, and if they proceeded in this way, they might, in the end, alter the whole scope and tenor of the Bill. He should be very sorry to say any thing harsh with respect to Ireland, but he certainly did object to increasing the number of Representatives for that country, and the more especially in conjunction with decreasing the number of Representatives for England. Let them look to the Act of Union, and he would ask, was not that question most fully considered? Was it not then decided that 100 Members was the largest number which Ireland was to have in the Imperial Parliament? When they took Representatives from one part of England, and gave them to another, he could perfectly comprehend that species of legislation. But he could not understand why a portion should be taken from the English Representation generally and given to the Irish Representation. Ministers had over and over again declared that they would stand or fall by the Bill which they had originally introduced. Now, however, he found, that they wished to alter it. This clearly showed, as he had formerly observed, that they had not brought forward their plan with that due consideration which ought to belong to so important a measure.
General Gascoynesaid that he was really a friend to safe and prudent Reform at all times; and he was glad to hear that the suggestions which had fallen from him and others with respect to this Bill, would be taken into consideration. He could not, although he was a friend to economy, go quite so far as the hon. Member for Middlesex wished to go, and though he was favourable to Reform, he could not proceed to the extent meditated by this Bill.
Lord John Russellsaid, he seemed to
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have been misunderstood by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Sugden). Ministers had not altered their minds on the subject of the number of Representatives. What he said was, that if it should appear to be the sense of the House that the whole number of 658 members, should be retained, the Government would not feel that they were altering a vital or essential part of the measure by agreeing to that proposition. With respect to the number of Representatives for England, Ireland, and Scotland, he denied that that question was finally fixed at the period of the Union. At the time of the Union with Scotland it was proposed by the Scotch that they should have fifty Members, the English Commissioners wished to reduce the number to thirty-eight; but finally the compromise was forty-five. But it was not stipulated that no change should be admitted under any circumstances.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, the gallant General always declared that he had a great regard for Ireland; but, in truth, he had a very odd way of showing it. The hon. and learned Gentleman had informed them that the question of the number of Representatives was definitively settled at the time of the Union. The contrary was the fact; and if the hon. and learned Gentleman would look into the act of Union, he would find there an express provision, with a view to some alteration to be hereafter made. They had no right, he contended, to treat this part of the subject as the hon. and learned Gentleman had done, as if it were an abstract question. Was there not, he asked, an identity of interest between the two countries? He could see no reason why they should not deal with Ireland, an integral part of the empire, as they would deal with Yorkshire. If the hon. and learned Gentleman treated this as an English subject, he certainly had an equal right to treat it as an Irish subject. He could see no reason whatever why, in considering this question, the large population of Ireland ought not to be taken into the account.
Sir E. B. Sugdenhad never said, nor thought, that there was not an identity of interest between England and Ireland.
Mr. G. Bankeswished to ask the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) whether it was the intention of Government to press the Bill into a Committee on Monday next. After what the noble Lord had announced of his intention of making a statement on

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Monday, to point out how the inhabitants of those boroughs might act in regard to which the returns made were erroneous, it would, he thought, be altogether inconsistent to press it on till the boroughs could avail themselves of the opportunity thus to be offered to them. The alterations now proposed by the noble Lord were the natural results of that secrecy which had been observed respecting the measure. If Ministers had intimated their intentions they would have acquired information on the subject; but they were acting in the dark, and the House now saw the result.
Lord John Russellsaid, the hon. Member was altogether mistaken in supposing that he had promised any such statement as he mentioned. He had done no such thing. He stated on a former occasion that Ministers had gone, in the proposed disfranchisement, on the population returns of 1821, and he added, that if any material errors were pointed out in those returns, so as to make out a case for any borough, Ministers would be disposed to pay every attention to it, and to correct it. Some returns had been laid on the table, and others were asked for and were ready, to give more correct accounts, of which any borough that could make out a case strong enough to shew that it was not properly included, might avail itself.
Lord Encombewas glad that the conversation had arisen, as it had shewn that the Returns on which the Bill was founded were erroneous.
Lord G. Somersetgave notice, that when the Bill was in Committee, he would move that Members be given to some of the large towns in Lincolnshire.
Sir Charles Forbescontended, that so far from adding to the prosperity of the country, it would have precisely the contrary effect. What had been its effect in Scotland? Why, from being the happiest people in any part of the British dominions, they had now become the most discontented and irritated, and the country from one end to the other was in a flame.
Mr. Hume.—With the illuminations.
Sir Charles Forbes.—The hon. Member said, with the illuminations; but who set those things on? Those who thought they had achieved a great triumph. But see the effect; the damage done in one night in Edinburgh by the mob was estimated at 20,000 l. Great efforts had been made to procure signatures to a petition from Edinburgh, complaining that the Bill did
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not go far enough. The petition was placed in the gin-shops, and persons were stationed there who told those who signed, that the effect of the measure would be that they would have whiskey for nothing; that there would be no gaugers, and that all would be quite free. The petition which no doubt would come before the House in a short time, signed by some thousands, prayed, he understood, that those who by this Bill should be excluded from voting should also be excluded from the militia, and from the payment of all taxation direct and indirect; or that if drawn for the militia, they should have the power of choosing their own officers by Ballot. This was only a specimen of what they might expect, if, unfortunately for Europe and the world, Ministers should succeed in forcing this revolutionary measure on the House. In fact, when the noble Lord introduced this measure, many Members believed that he was only in a joke, and he had no doubt that if at that time it had been grappled with, it would have been rejected by a large majority.
Mr. Humedenied, that the measure was now a new Bill. He should like the Bill as it stood, but the change, if change it could be called, went not to the principle of the measure. He owned the conduct of hon. Members opposed to the Bill was not a little inconsistent. They first complained that part of the Bill was founded on returns which were inaccurate, and when Ministers expressed their readiness to correct those returns, having no wish to injure boroughs which they would affect, the same hon. Gentlemen turned round and said, that the Bill was a new Bill, and objected to it because it corrected the errors of which they complained. His hon. friend (Sir C. Forbes) was quite mistaken as to what was passing in Scotland. It was beyond a doubt that the people there were in favour of the Bill from one end of the country to the other. He admitted that in the Scotch counties, which were as much close-boroughs as any of those included in schedule A, those who hitherto had the monopoly of the franchise were anxious to keep it, but they were only as one in 10,000 compared with those who were favourable to the Bill. The disturbances in Edinburgh and Dundee, he believed, were chiefly caused by the anti-Reformers; but, with the exception of them, there was nothing in the state of Scotland which could create alarm.
Colonel Sibthorpcongratulated the House on the proposed change in the dress of the Bill, which he must say was not a little inconsistent, after what had been stated the other evening, that any alteration would make the measure inefficient. The population returns for some places were wholly erroneous. In Grimsby, for instance, that before the House was 3,064, but a census by the people there made it 4,000; and he hoped that since then some accouchements had added to the population, so as to make it beyond the number which would continue both Members for the borough. Though he was glad of a change in the Bill, he would not vote for it unless a still greater change were made in it.
Mr. Keith Douglassaid, he had been lately in Scotland, and he could state that the effects produced by the Bill there were inconvenient and mischievous. The noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had said, the other day, that the Bill could undergo no change, and Members were called upon by their constituents to support the measure without any modification; but now the Bill was changed in its spirit at least. He could state that the greatest irritation had been produced in Scotland by the Bill. He regretted that the proposed alteration had not been made in the Bill at a much earlier period.
Mr. Huntsaid, they had three statements as to the state of Scotland with respect to this Bill,—one was, that it was in a flame from one end to the other; another, that Scotland was all joy at it; and a third, that it had been productive of very inconvenient irritation in that country. Now he had been lately in the country, and much amongst the people; and he could tell his hon. friend (the member for Middlesex), that the people were not quite so mad for the Bill as he imagined. The country had now had time for reflection, and there was a re-action of opinion. [Cheers from the Opposition.] Notwithstanding those cheers from those who he knew would not support his view of the Bill, he would state what he knew to be the fact as to the opinion of the people. He had been recently in Staffordshire and Warwickshire, and other populous places, where he was called upon to address the people, and he knew the sentiments of 200,000 of them, and he had not met one man who was left, out of the franchise who approved of the measure, and not one who was included who did not approve
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of it. So that he might say there were 700,000 or 800,000 in favour of the measure, and 700,000 or 800,000 against it. [Renewed cheers from the same side.] Let not those Gentlemen who cheered him, imagine that in this he was objecting to the Bill: he would give it his support. All he objected to was, that it did not go far enough. If it had extended the franchise to all who paid scot and lot, there would be some principle in it, but now there was none. At the same time he hoped it would pass, for it would make one great inroad into that accursed system which had brought that House into contempt with every man of common sense and with the whole world. So far he rejoiced at the measure, but he must own the truth, that a great re-action had taken place in the public mind on the subject of the Bill. He had met the people of Manchester, of Birmingham, of Bolton, of Preston, and other places, and notwithstanding what fell from the hon. member for Middlesex, that the people were all run mad for joy on the subject, he must say, that with one exception, the people thought they were deluded by it. They thought that they should have got something for themselves by it; that they were going to get meat or clothes cheaper by it; but when they found that it would have none of these effects, they were naturally disappointed at the whole measure. He asked the people whom he had met, whether, if they were excluded from the right of choosing Representatives for themselves, they would like to have Representatives chosen for them by that class of persons which would possess the elective franchise under the noble Lord's Bill,—the 10 l. voters. They uniformly replied "No!" They said that they would much rather see their Representatives chosen by the gentry and the higher classes of society than by that class which was immediately above themselves. He had lately received a deputation from the Spitalfields weavers, and he was told by them that they were not now so mad as they had been; they found that they were not to be represented, and they did not, therefore, expect that the Bill would do them any good.
Colonel Davieshad listened with pain to the extraordinary speech which had just been delivered. The hon. member for Preston professed himself to be a Reformer, and yet he had done as much as the worst enemy of Reform could do against the

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Bill. The hon. Member had told the House that the people were recovering from their frenzy, and from their delusion. It was to be hoped that the good people of Preston, at least, had recovered from their delusion. They fancied that they had sent a Reformer to Parliament; but they would now find that that Reformer was doing every thing in his power to defeat Reform. He would inform the hon. Member of the remarks, not heard, perhaps, by the hon. Member himself, which were made upon his speech in his own neighbourhood. [Colonel Davies and Mr. Hunt both sat on the Opposition side of the House.] Some Gentlemen sitting around him thought that speech "the best which had been made against Reform," and others said that "it had done more for their cause, and against Reform, than any speech yet delivered." The hon. Member had said that the people of Preston had discovered that they would not have bread, meat, or clothing cheaper in consequence of this measure. If he thought that it would not have the effect of making all those articles cheaper, he, for one, would not vote for it. By whom had the abominable system of taxation existing in this country, and the enormous establishments which ground down the people, been upheld? The hon. member for Preston had himself answered the question in 150 speeches which he had made out of that House and had declared that a Reform in Parliament was wanted to do away with that system which had so long been the curse of the country. He was convinced that with a Reformed Parliament no Administration could stand six weeks unless they proposed measures of economy and retrenchment. The hon. Member had said that the people had recovered from their delusion; and that now when they found that they were to receive no benefit from the Bill, they were all to a man against it. He flatly contradicted that statement,—a different feeling pervaded the country. People were to be found, he asserted, who were willing to make a sacrifice of the privileges which they held to be most valuable for what they considered a public benefit. It was impossible for him to sit still, after hearing the hon. Member who professed to be a Reformer, deliver the speech he had done. If the Bill now before the House was thrown out, what was to be done then? Did the hon. Member wish to go on from bad to worse, until
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some convulsion took place in the country —when the Radicals would get what they wanted—Universal Suffrage, and Annual Parliaments? If that was not the hon. Member's object, he could not conceive for what reason the hon. Member should have made a speech, which had done more to prejudice the measure of Government, than any which had yet been delivered.
An Hon. Member denied the accuracy of the statement which had been made, that the whole of Scotland, from one end to the other, was delighted with the Ministerial plan of Reform. Every regularly convened county meeting in that country, comprising the property, the intelligence, and respectability of the district, had, with one or two exceptions, passed resolutions, and prepared petitions, expressing their disapprobation of the measure.
Mr. Huntsaid, he had been denounced by a gallant Colonel as one of the worst enemies of Reform. The gallant Officer, however, had not ventured to deny one of his assertions. He had never disguised his sentiments. He was a Reformer, but the particular measure before the House did not come up to his idea of Reform. He did not accuse his Majesty's Ministers of having deluded the country, by holding out expectations that their Reform Bill would make bread and clothing cheap; but if they had not, others had. The people had been deluded, but they had discovered their error upon reflection, and would be deluded no longer. If the measure was to be what the noble Lord opposite said it should be, he then was an enemy to the measure so far as thinking it did not go far enough made him an enemy to it.
Sir Charles Forbessaid, that Edinburgh and Dundee were not the only places in Scotland where evil consequences had ensued from the introduction of the Reform Bill. Much mischief had likewise been done in Perth and Glasgow, in the latter of which places the mob went so far as to hoist the tricoloured flag.
Lord Mahonwished to know whether, if any proposition should be made to preserve the relative proportion of the Representatives of England, Ireland, and Scotland as it now stood, Ministers would consider that it involved a violation of the principle of the Bill.
No answer was given to this question.
The Petition to be printed.

LAW REFORM BILL.—IRELAND.
Mr. Cramptonmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to improve the administration of the law in Ireland. The object of the Bill was, to assimilate the law of Ireland to that of England. It changed the law Terms in Ireland and the days for returning writs; it regulated the periods of nisi prius sittings; it enabled the Court of King's Bench to pronounce judgment in certain criminal cases after Term; it regulated the practice of the superior Courts and fixed the time for holding Quarter Sessions; in short it was intended to extend to Ireland the recent alterations which had been made in the law in England. Such being the object of the Bill, he anticipated no opposition to his Motion.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that this Bill, like the play of Hamlet with the part of Hamlet left out, omitted the most important matter. The object of the Bill was to assimilate the laws of Ireland to those of England, and yet not a word was mentioned in the Bill about the Grand or Petty-Jury laws. He understood that the last Government had seen the evil of the present Jury system in Ireland, and had prepared a bill to assimilate it to the English system. If it was the intention of the present Government to bring in a particular bill for that purpose, he would not at present say any thing on the subject.
Mr. Cramptonsaid, it was true that a bill had been prepared by the late Government on the subject of the Grand-Jury system, and he promised to give it the fullest consideration. It was very probable that it might be brought in, but he could not give any pledge on the subject.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that there was nothing of which the people of Ireland had so much right to complain as the gross partiality which was displayed in the selection of Juries. It appeared from a report presented to that House, that the Sheriffs in Dublin were elected for party purposes, and were obliged to give party pledges previous to their election. ["Order!" and a slight confusion in the House."] "Oh!" exclaimed the hon. and learned Member, "this is a subject of very little importance,—it is only a matter relating to Ireland,—nothing but a proposition to improve the administration of justice in Ireland, which is not worth listening to." He said that the lists of the Special Juries were all made out by the deputy of Lord Seymour Conway who always out in them
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members of the Corporation, mostly of little property, and as little expectations. This deputy had the selection of all Special Juries for the law courts of Dublin, including the Court of King's Bench, which was considered an evil as it was acknowledged to be unfair, by the last Administration, and they therefore prepared a bill for the purpose of putting an end to it. By a report made to that House, it appeared that any person, on giving twenty guineas to the sub-sheriff, might have whatever Jury he pleased. The Bill which the last government brought in to assimilate the Jury laws of Ireland to those of England, had been withdrawn on the understanding that it was to be re-introduced early this Session; but now the House was told that that Bill, relating as it did to a most important matter, might be brought in perhaps. He could not be content with such vague promises; he did not ask for any thing unreasonable, he asked for impartial Juries, and he called upon the present Government to bring forward a measure to promote the attainment of so desirable an object. He believed the Irish Insolvent Act would shortly expire. He therefore thought that it would be best to leave all matters connected with that out of the present Bill, and have a particular bill to regulate the Insolvent Court of Ireland. The manner in which the judges —one of them in particular—conducted the business of that Court did not give satisfaction; and it would be his duty to present to the House a petition from a large body of mercantile persons, calling upon the House to consider the state of the insolvent law. He implored the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Crampton) to leave out of the Bill any alteration of the ejectment law. There were at present facilities enough for landlords to crush their tenants. Since the Union several Statutes had been passed in favour of the landlords and against the tenantry. There was now a servile war raging in Ireland, a war of poverty against property, and he was afraid that the discontent of the lower classes would only be aggravated, if any steps were taken to increase the power of the landlords ever the tenantry.
Mr. Cramptonsaid, that with respect to the bill of the late Government on the subject of the Grand-Jury laws, he had not had as yet time fully to consider it, but he promised to give it his best attention. The disturbances in Ireland were

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not attributable, he believed, to the administration of justice in that country, which was as pure and impartial as in England. The proposed Bill contained one or two clauses for the purpose of giving relief to such persons as had been committed to prison for contempt of court, arising from their ignorance.
Sir E. Sugdenconsidered the statement of the hon. and learned member (Mr. Crampton) respecting the Grand-Jury hill which had been brought forward by the late Government, very fair. He was glad to see that a clause was to be inserted in the proposed Bill, to give relief to those unfortunate persons who were suffering for contempt of Court. When he introduced his bill to relieve a similar class of persons in England, he had proposed extending the provisions to Ireland; but there were certain technical difficulties, which prevented him from doing so. From what had fallen from the hon. and learned member for Waterford, it appeared that he was an advocate for cheap law, except where landlords were concerned. For his part he was disposed to give his support to any process efficacious enough to prevent litigation and expense, which must ultimately fall on the poor tenant.
Mr. Humethought the Ministers were not coming forward on this subject as the House had a right to expect. At an early period of the Session the Noble Lord opposite had stated, that it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to do a great deal to better the condition of Ireland; and now they had an equivocal declaration with respect to a matter of the greatest importance to that country. If the statement of his hon. and learned friend could not be denied (and it could not), of the unfair and partial constitution of juries in Ireland, how could the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite say that the present discontent had nothing to do with the administration of justice in Ireland? In England means had been adopted to procure impartial Juries; why not in Ireland? After the statement by his hon. and learned friend—that it had been established seven or eight years ago, that a sub-sheriff in Dublin had sold Juries for twenty or thirty guineas, and that the individual still kept his office—could there be any doubt of the necessity of interference? He hoped the noble Lord would give some pledge that the measure prepared by the late Administration should be completed.
Lord Althorpsaid, he could not pledge himself to bring forward the particular bill to which the hon. member for Middlesex had alluded, but he would pledge himself that a measure should be brought forward on the part of Government, as soon as he and his colleagues could turn their attention to the subject.
Mr. Ruthvensaid, that Ireland ought to have the benefit of the English laws, wherever they could be applied to the former country.
Motion agreed to.

PRIVILEGES OF THE HOUSE—PECUNIARY PENALTIES.
On the Motion of Mr. C. W. Wynn, the Order of the Day was read for the further consideration of the Report of the Committee on the Privileges of the House with respect to Pecuniary Penalties. The report was brought up and read as follows. "Resolved,:—That it is the opinion of this Committee, that in any Bill which, having passed the House of Lords, shall be sent down to this House for their concurrence, or in any Bill which having passed this House, shall be return ed by the Lords with amendments, it shall appear that any pecuniary penalty or forfeiture is thereby imposed, varied, or taken away, the Speaker shall, before the second reading of such Bill, or amendments, report to the House his opinion, whether the object thereof be to impose, vary, or to take away any pecuniary charge or burthen on the subject, or whether the same relates only to the punishment or the prevention of offences; and the House shall thereupon determine whether it may be expedient, in such particular case to insist upon the exercise of their privilege to originate all such provisions respecting pecuniary penalties or forfeiture."
Mr. C. W. Wynnmoved, that the House do agree with the Resolution. The abject of it was to relax the privileges of the House in cases where the public interests required it, and with the approbation of the Speaker. Under the system proposed, bills for the amendment of the criminal law, containing clauses which inflicted pecuniary penalties, might he brought forward in the House of Lords, from which great public convenience would result.
Mr. Humeexpressed his disinclination to trench in the slightest; degree upon any of the privileges of the House, and his inability to perceive that the present practice was attended with any inconvenience.
Sir R. Peelcould state, from his personal experience, that, when he introduced his bills for the amendment of the Criminal Law, very great inconvenience was felt in the passing of those Bills through the House of Lords, in consequence of the exercise of the privileges of the House with respect to the pecuniary penalties necessarily inserted in them.
Lord Althorpentirely concurred in the sentiments of the right hon. Baronet, and hoped the House would agree to the resolutions of his right hon. friend.
Resolution read a second time and agreed to.

CIVIL LIST BILL.
The House, on the Motion of Lord Althorp, resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, on the Civil List Bill.
Lord Althorpsaid, that he had already fully stated his reasons why he could not, as the Minister of the Crown, agree to the recommendation of the Committee. He should, therefore, move that a blank, left in one of the clauses of the Bill, be filled up with the words, "That the sum of 510,000 l. be granted out of the Consolidated Fund, for the support of his Majesty's Household, and the honour and dignity of the Crown."
Mr. Humesaid, that having been a member of the Committee which resolved that this sum should be reduced by 12,000 l., he felt it his duty to move as an amendment that only the sum of 498,000 l. be granted for the purpose specified.
Mr. O'Connellseconded the Amendment. If his hon. friend divided on the question, he would vote with him.
Mr. George Robinsonsupported the Amendment. He did not say that the Ministers were bound by the recommendation of the Committee, but as he saw no reason why the great Officers of State should not have their salaries lessened, he should vote for the lesser sum.
Sir R. Peelsaid, that he entirely approved of the course which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken on this subject. In his opinion nothing would be more injudicious than to give grounds for future applications to Parliament, for defraying debts which might hereafter be incurred by the Crown, in consequence of an allowance too limited to satisfy the claims and necessities incidental to Royalty. He, therefore, most cordially assented to the proposal of the noble Lord, it being
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founded in justice, and sanctioned by sound policy.
Mr. Humethought, that the present condition of the country required more reduction than Ministers had hitherto made, and for that reason would still abide by the opinion which he had already expressed. However, looking to the thin state of the House, he should content himself with protesting against the course, in this instance, pursued by the noble Lord, without pressing for a division.
Resolution agreed to. Several of the blanks of the Bill were filled up. On the clause relating to the income of the junior branches of the Royal Family having been read,
Mr. Humetook the opportunity to suggest, that the allowance to the several branches of the Royal Family ought to undergo some reduction in common with all other public salaries, in consideration of the comparative cheapness of provisions since those allowances had been originally granted. Such a diminution might with the greater propriety be proposed, as the present members of the Royal Family enjoyed the benefit of survivorship, for it was provided, that at the death of one prince of the blood his allowance should be so apportioned as considerably to increase the incomes of the others. If, therefore, no proposition of the nature he recommended should emanate from Government, he should feel it his duty, on the bringing up of the Report, when the House resumed, to give notice of his intention, at an early day, to move an Amendment to that effect.
On the clause granting the Crown 10,000 l. for sudden emergencies,
Mr. Goulburnproposed, that the sum be increased to 20,000 l. for such contingent expenses as might be incurred during the year, and which Parliament could not then anticipate. The actual expense was at present 510,000 l.; and he thought that 10,000 l. was not a sufficient surplus to be placed at the disposal of the King, the dignity of the Crown and the convenience of Parliament being taken into consideration. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that the sum be 20,000 l.
Mr. O'Connellcould not subscribe to the doctrine of the right hon. Gentleman. He thought that Parliament could not be too wary in placing surplus sums above the actual expenditure in the hands of any

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Minister, and should, therefore, propose as an Amendment on the right hon. Gentleman's proposition, that the sum be reduced to 510,000 l. Even this sum would leave a surplus to meet extraordinary contingencies; for the actual Estimate was but 498,000 l.
Lord Althorpsaid, he would leave the matter in the hands of the Committee, though he could have no objection to the larger surplus. He, therefore, would agree to the Amendment.
Mr. O'Connelldeclared his determination to divide the Committee on the question.
The Committee accordingly divided. For the Motion 44; Against it 10 — Majority in favour of Mr. Goulburn's Motion to increase the surplus to 20,000 l. —34.
Mr. Humesubsequently moved, as an Amendment on the vote of 123,000 l. for his Majesty's Household expenses, that it be reduced to 119,344 l.
Amendment negatived without a division. The Bill, with its Amendments, ordered to be reported. The House resumed.
Mr. Humeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether he intended to refer the other charges on the Civil List to the consideration of a Select Committee.
Lord Althorpsaid, that such was not his intention, but to refer them to a Committee of the whole House. If, when he proposed to refer these charges to a Committee of the whole House, any Gentleman should propose to refer them to the consideration of a Select Committee, he should be prepared to state more fully the intentions of his Majesty's Government, and their reasons for entertaining them.
Mr. Humegave notice, that he should on a future day move that these charges be referred to the consideration of a Select Committee.

EMANCIPATION OF THE JEWS.
Mr. Goulburnwished to know whether his right hon. friend opposite intended to proceed with his Motion regarding the Jews, which stood for discussion on Thursday evening.
Mr. A. Grantsaid, that though he retained his former opinions and intentions on this subject, he was inclined to postpone bringing forward his Motion till after the settlement of the Reform Bill, as he did not wish to add any fresh cause
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of excitement to the public mind. The conduct of those materially interested in the success of his Motion was most proper, in leaving their claims to the discretion of the House, and not wishing to obstruct the progress of another great question by obtruding them at present upon its notice.

MONEY PAYMENT OF WAGES BILL— THE TRUCK SYSTEM.
On the Motion of Mr. Littleton, the Money Payment of Wages Bill was recommitted. On the House resolving itself into a Committee,
Mr. Humeheld the principle of this Bill to be erroneous. He had before declared his sentiments on the subject, and would not, therefore,discuss its clauses, but move that the Chairman do now leave the Chair.
Sir R. Batesoninquired whether this Bill was to be extended to Ireland?
Mr. Littletonreplied, that it was not; but he should have no objection to extend its provisions to that country.
Sir R. Batesoncontended, that it was important that the provisions of the Bill should extend to Ireland.
Mr. Littletonbegged to observe, in explanation, that the title of the Bill contained the words "to certain parts of Great Britain;" and that he was therefore afraid that it could not be extended to Ireland. By another Bill, however, the enactments of the measure might be extended to Ireland.
Mr. Warburtonwould not now go into the discussion of the merits of this Bill, to which he had before expressed his decided opposition. He was glad, however, to find that the Bill had been so materially altered from the form in which it had originally been laid before them. He felt it the more unnecessary to discuss the measure, as, in his opinion, it would be found totally inoperative, even if it should be passed into a law.
Mr. Westernsaid, that however highly he might appreciate the motives of the hon. member for Staffordshire, in bringing forward this Bill, yet, believing the principle of it to be most pernicious, he must decidedly oppose it. It was impossible to tell how far such a principle might be carried, or what extent of mischief might result from the adoption of the principle. He believed the House had never interfered between the master and the man, except to the detriment of the latter.
Mr. Tennantsaid, he was opposed to the Bill, and thought that the only effect of it would be, to prevent the poor man from obtaining the best market he could for the only thing he had to sell, namely, his labour. It was not always that laws which originated in good motives were the best laws, or the laws most calculated to effect the object towards which they were directed. Thus the Usury Laws were intended to benefit the borrowers of money; but they were in effect most disadvantageous to the borrowers, as many of the Gentlemen he was now addressing might have experienced. According to the definition of "wages" in this Bill, the clauses of the Bill would not touch any contract which was partly in money and partly in goods.
Mr. James Morisonbelieved, that the Bill would be found in practice an interference between master and man, which was never advisable, without the possibility of effecting that which was the professed object of the interference. If, however, the Bill did operate at all, he was sure that it would do the labourers no good, and that it was very likely to do them much harm. In some parts of the country it would throw hundreds out of employment.
Mr. W. Whitmoresaid, that if he thought the bargains in question were matters of pure competition between the masters and the labourers, he should agree with the hon. member for Middlesex, and the other Members opposite; but as he considered the Truck System to be a system of positive compulsion upon the labourers, he believed that that would be a wholesome and beneficial law, which should require that all such contracts be carried into effect by means of money. Under this system, the man who was employed by the Truck-master constantly fell into debt with the shop, and then it was impossible for him to leave that particular employment. Being in the master's debt, the man was altogether in the master's power. None of the Gentlemen opposite had ventured to say, that the Truck System was one which it would be advisable to allow generally; but then if it were not a good general system, why should it be allowed to prevail in particular districts of the country?
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that the best feature in this Bill was, that it would be totally inoperative. He was quite opposed to a
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measure which went, like this Bill, to interfere with the freedom of labour. The Truck System was the result and the proof of the existence of poverty and distress in the country; and this was not the way to remedy such a state of things. The way to do that was, to increase the market for labour, and to increase the competition amongst the masters.
Mr. Maberlysaid, that this Bill was contrary to all the general principles of political economy. But if it was an expedient and good Bill, why was it confined to England? The whole agricultural wages in Scotland consisted in barter, and yet this Bill was not extended to Scotland. He, for one, was for leaving manufactures and trade alone. In his opinion, the grand principle was, not to legislate at all for such matters, but to let every thing find its proper level in the open market.
Mr. Littletonsaid, that all he wanted in bringing forward this Bill was, to carry into effect the existing laws on the subject. It appeared to him that Parliament should either repeal those laws altogether, or not allow them to be evaded. He maintained that the measure in its present shape would be perfectly effective for the object which it had in view. There was a general call throughout the country, amongst those who were most interested in the matter, for such a measure, and he hoped the House would at length consent to its adoption.
Mr. R. Gordonsaid, that his impression was, that this Bill would be wholly ineffectual. He should certainly oppose it, for it appeared to him to be a perfectly useless and very absurd measure. Indeed, of all the absurd pieces of legislation that had ever been introduced into the British Legislature, this was, in his opinion, the greatest. He would only ask, for instance, why were Lincolnshire and several other counties exempted from the operation of this Bill? Why was such an absurd exemption introduced into it?
Mr. Alderman Woodhad the same objection to urge against the Bill, for he could not understand why Cornwall should have been exempted from its operation. As, however, the hon. member for Staffordshire thought that the Bill was calculated to prevent the Truck System, he would support it.
Mr. Littletonsaid, that the reason why certain counties had been exempted from the operation of the Bill was, that it had

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not been proved that the Truck System existed in those counties.
Mr. Huntsaid, that although there might be some difficulty in carrying the Act into effect, yet he hoped, that for the sake of the labouring poor, who suffered great hardships, the Bill would pass.
Lord Althorpobserved, that those hon. Members who had opposed this Bill had argued upon a false foundation. They had assumed, that the labourers were always competent to make contracts, whereas they were in every Case in debt to their masters, and therefore it was impossible for them to resist the control of their masters, and they were obliged to take goods from them at any rate. All that this Bill did was, to enable the labourers to know what were the bargains they did make. When this measure first came before him, he had had some doubts of its policy; but after a full consideration of the facts, he felt it to be his duty to support it.
Lord Granville Somersetopposed the Bill, and supported, though with reluctance, the Motion of the hon. member for Middlesex.
Mr. Poulett Thomsondid not expect that such a law could be made perfect at once; but it was less likely to be evaded, and was, therefore, a better law than the present.
Lord Sandonsaid, that the labourers felt the slavery in which they were entangled; and they came to that House for relief. In his belief, it was their duty to listen to the demand, and to pass the Bill. It was said, that political economists had an exception to their principles of free-trade; and he thought that it was much to their credit that they had. No one had more agreed in the principles of Mr. Huskisson than he had; but he well knew that that lamented gentleman also felt that there ought to be a limit to the principles of free trade. In his opinion, the present case came within this description.
The House divided; the numbers were, For Mr. Hume's Amendment 15; Against it 40—Majority 25.
Several verbal Amendments were agreed to, as were the several clauses; the House resumed, and the Report was brought up.