Commons Sitting of 10 November 1830

MINUTES.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. M. A. TAYLOR, an Account of the number of Cases, Exceptions, further Directions, Picas, and Demurrers, entered for argument before the Vice-Chancellor and Master of the Rolls, on the first day of each Michaelmas Term in 1827–28–29 and 30; and also the number of Cases, &c remaining on each of those days before the same Judges.
Petitions presented. For the abolition of Slavery, principally from Protestant Dissenting Congregations, by Mr. DENMAN, from sixty-seven places in Nottinghamshire:— By Sir JAMES CARNEGIE, from Aberdeen:—By Sir G.

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PONSONBY, two from Youghall:—By Mr. WRIGHTSON, from Hull:—By Mr. ORMSBY GORE, from Carnarvon:— By Mr. FOLEY, from Stourport:—By Lord F. OSBORNE, from Wisbeach:—By Mr. JAMES BROUGHAM, from Down-ton; and two other places in Wiltshire:—By Mr. C. W. WYNN, from Welsh Pool; and another place in Montgomeryshire:— By Mr. FORRESTER, from Broseley;—By Mr. BRISCOE, from Croydon, Guildford, Tunbridge Wells, Sheerness, and eleven other places in Surrey and Kent:— By Mr. ADEANE, from Wisbeach; and seven other places: —By Sir E. KNATCHBULL, from Margate: — By Mr. HODGES, two from Greenwich:— By Mr. W. WHITMORE, from Kidderminster:—By Sir J. MACKINTOSH, from the Protestant Dissenting Ministers in London, Westminster, and the neighbourhood:—By Sir G. ROBINSON, from Northampton: —By Mr. J. WOOD, from Preston and Sal-ford:—By Mr. STEWART, nine from Bedfordshire:—By Admiral SOTHERON, three from Nottinghamshire:—By Mr. HUGHES HUGHES, from Oxford:—By Mr. BRAUMONT, four from the County of Northumberland:—By Mr. WILKS, from Shaftesbury, Stepney, and Ponder's End: —By Mr. SYKES, from a place in Yorkshire: — By Sir J. GRAHAM, eighteen from Cumberland, and eleven from Westmoreland:—By Mr. LABOUCHERE, from Taunton and Fal-wood:—By Lord BELGRAVE, from Macclesfield: —By Mr. LONG WELLESLEY, from Chelmsford:—By Mr. PENDARVIS, from ninety-six places in Cornwall (96 Petitions). Against the Annual Grant to the Society for the Education of the Poor (Ireland), by Mr. A. DAWSON, from Tuam.

ABSENCE OF THE MINISTERS.
Mr. Brougham(it being rather more than half-past-three) repeated the observations which he made the other evening on the impropriety of the House being left without any Minister during the presentation of Petitions on important subjects.
Sir R. Peel,who almost immediately afterwards entered the House, expressed his surprise at the observations which the hon. and learned Gentleman had made in his absence. He had never understood that in consequence of the new arrangement it was imperative upon Ministers to be in the House at three o'clock. He tried to reconcile his various duties as well as he could, but it was impossible for a Secretary of State to be always able to leave his office at a particular moment. He should have thought that the state of the town last night might have led the hon. and learned Gentleman to infer that he had not been altogether unoccupied that morning. He had also been attending his Majesty at the levee, and had received his Majesty's gracious permission to leave the Court before the termination of the levee (contrary to the usage), in order that he might be enabled to attend his duty in that House.
Mr. Broughamcould not tell why the right hon. Gentleman was so angry at what had fallen from him. He was not the only Minister. It was the Clerk of the Ordnance who had been more particularly wanted in the House that evening. The right hon. Gentleman complained,
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that in his absence he (Mr. Brougham) had complained of his not being present. He did not well see how he could have complained that the right hon. Gentleman was absent if he had been present. His understanding of the late arrangement might be wrong; but he certainly understood that a Minister was to be present, at least by half-past-three. The right hon. Gentleman had said that the state of the town last night might have led him to infer that he (Sir R. Peel) had not been altogether unoccupied that morning. What the right hon. Gentleman meant by the state of the town last night he was at a loss to conjecture. He had yesterday evening walked down the Strand, and passed the Horse-guards and the Admiralty; and had certainly seen a great crowd: but a more innocent, a more peaceable, a more harmless, a more good-humoured assemblage, he had never witnessed. There was certainly an immense body of police drawn up in four companies, in military array. But as to the crowd, he had never seen a less disposition to tumult or riot. Men, women, and children —and especially many well-dressed women — were gathered together, and gazing on the manner in which the houses were decorated with laurel-leaves, and crowns, and the initials of their most gracious Majesties, and on the manœuvres of the police. He saw nothing whatever which could lead to any apprehension of a violation of the peace.
Sir R. Peelobserved, that the hon. and learned Gentleman was, he fancied, almost the only person who had viewed the scene of last night in that light. For himself he knew that there had been some severe collisions between the police and the mob; and that a great part of his morning had been employed on that subject.
Mr. Beaumontsaid, that there certainly had been some serious disturbances and breaches of the peace in the neighbourhood of Temple-bar. He was afraid that as long as the present Administration remained in power, the mornings of the right hon. Gentleman would be but too frequently occupied as they had been that day.

DR. PHILLPOTTS.
Sir James Grahamstated, that a Petition had been presented some time ago to his Majesty, from the Parishioners of the Parish of Stanhope, in the County of Durham, respecting the

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intended elevation of Dr. Phillpotts, the Rector of that parish, to the vacant See of Exeter. He now gave notice, that on Thursday se'nnight he would move for the production of that petition.
Mr. Beaumontobserved, that great discontent had been excited in the parish of Stanhope, containing 12,000 persons, by the apprehension that Dr. Phillpotts was to be allowed to retain the possession of the rectory of that parish, the tithes of which amounted to 4,000 l. a year. He wished the right hon. Gentleman opposite would state what were the intentions of his Majesty's Government on the subject.
Sir R. Peelanswered, that the rectory had formerly been held by a Bishop, and it was to be held by the Bishop of Exeter in commendam.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that in consequence of what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman he would change the nature of his intended Motion, adopt at once a more direct course, and move an Address to his Majesty on the subject.

TAXATION AND REFORM.
Mr. Humepresented a Petition from the inhabitants of Mary-le-bone, agreed to at a public meeting, where 3,000 persons were assembled complaining of Distress. He begged leave to call the attention of the House to the petition, which spoke the sense of the majority of the inhabitants of that parish, and he believed of the people of this kingdom. The petitioners say:—
"That this country, unparalleled in the annals of history, has been brought to a state utterly at variance with its knowledge, industry, wealth, and enterprise; that this state is the consequence of a bad administration in its affairs; that this bad administration is the inevitable consequence of the popular branch of the Government not having been elected by the people, nor accountable to the people."
On this point he agreed with the petitioners, who went on to say—
"That the Members of your hon. House are returned by a very small minority of the male population of this kingdom who are householders; that the means by which a majority of the Members of your hon. House are returned, are—by the undue influence of Peers; by the undue influence of a few wealthy persons not Peers; by the undue influence of the Treasury; by the influence of terror, as it is in various ways exercised over electors; by the purchase of seats for rotten boroughs: by persons who
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are returned for their own boroughs; by bribery and corruption, now again all but openly practised, and other modes and practices, all calculated to make your hon. House dependent on the aristocratical branch of the Government, instead of being, as it ought to be, dependent on the people, and on the people only."
No relief, he was persuaded, could be effected without a change in this system— without, in other words, putting down the monopoly in the manufacture of Members of Parliament. It was the monopoly of a set of men, who used every exertion to put into their own pockets as much as they could of the public taxes. That was his opinion; and he was happy to find, that the people, who were of the same opinion, were now beginning to come forward, and express their sentiments upon the subject. The country was in a state of the greatest wretchedness, and the squalid appearance which a large portion of its inhabitants presented, was such as to excite feelings of compassion for them, but disgust for the persons to whom they owed their misery. Such a state of things ought not to be allowed. The petitioners said, that undue influence was still kept up in different parts of the kingdom by bribery and corruption, which no measure was so likely to prevent as voting by ballot. That formed in his opinion one of the most important subjects of Reform. The petitioners also stated—
"That the taxes levied on the people are so large in amount as to exceed the sum of one million of pounds sterling for every six working days in each week."
The people of this country were taxed in a degree never equalled in the history of the world. He was sorry to hear the right hon. Baronet opposite state a few evenings ago, that the Government was not prepared to say whether there would be any reduction of taxation. The Ministers would not make up their minds on meeting the new Parliament, to make reductions and retrenchments, because they were determined to wait and ascertain the temper of this Parliament. But although they could not say anything on this subject, they were ready enough to state that they were determined to oppose every measure of Reform, from whatever quarter it might emanate. He understood that it was stated by a noble Duke in another place, that as long as he had any control in the Government, Reform should never be conceded. If such were the case

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—if it were the fixed determination of Government to oppose with all its power, the important Question of Reform, all that he would say, was, God send that their time may be short. He was satisfied that this declaration had already greatly increased the dissatisfaction of the people, and unless something was speedily done, that dissatisfaction would increase to an alarming extent. He was afraid this spirit of discontent would so increase as to affect the security of property, and to occasion alarm in the heart of every person having property to lose. He could not help expressing his apprehension at the declaration, that, notwithstanding the strength of public opinion in favour of Reform, and however it might be expressed, Ministers were determined not to listen to it. If the petitions of the people in favour of Reform were not attended to, how could they be satisfied? What measures would Ministers adopt to prevent them from looking to some other resource? As for the taxes, it was impossible for the people to bear them. The petitioners said,—
"That so numerous are these taxes, that an adequate description of them and their operation would fill a volume.
"That these taxes, so enormous in the aggregate, are unequal and partial, favouring the rich, and unjustly oppressing all the rest of the community.
"That not only are the taxes oppressive which the people are compelled to pay, but the misgovernment they have engendered is even more inimical to the welfare of the nation, as they have induced Ministers to abridge the liberties of the subject; to maintain an immense standing army in time of peace, an army greater than ever existed during any war preceding the last; to proceed in divers ways to preserve their influence; to depress trade; to injure manufactures; to impede commerce; to embarrass agriculture, and to do great evil to all the useful portion of the community.
"That these oppressive, unequal, and enormous taxes have engendered very general discontent, which is every day increasing, and may lead to consequences, the bare contemplation of which is calculated to make every reflecting man shudder.
"That this lamentable state of a nation, so ingenious, skilful, intelligent, and industrious, would never have been brought about by a House of Commons fairly chosen by the people.
"That it is a state equally disgraceful to the nation and to the Government, in the opinion of all thinking men, both natives and foreigners.
"That these evils, enormous as they are,
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might and would with ease be remedied by a House of Commons elected by a majority of the householders; in such a House the people would place implicit confidence, support its measures, promote its views, and in conjunction with the other branches of the Legislature, speedily work out the salvation of the country."
This was the result of a most monstrous and abominable system. Even this evening the right hon. Baronet opposite, with all the coolness imaginable, admitted that it was intended to allow a reverend gentleman, about to be made a Bishop, to retain the spiritual charge of a parish containing 12,000 persons, the tithes of which amount to 4,000 l. a-year. Was it proper, was it consistent, that a Bishop, residing nearly 400 miles distant from this parish, should be allowed to hold the living? He was happy that the hon. Baronet, the member for Cumberland, had given notice of a motion for an Address to the Crown upon the subject, and he trusted that it would be sufficient to induce Ministers to make Dr. Phillpotts resign this living. If Parliament were reformed such things would not be allowed in the Church, nor would a Minister get up and defend them. After the declaration made by the Ministers on the subject of reform, and after their refusal to state whether they intended to make any reduction in taxation, the House ought to bring them to a proper sense of their duty, or compel them to resign the helm of government to those who would attend to the wishes and feelings of the people: they might learn something of the sentiments of the people by this passage of the petition. The petitioners said, that they were
"Resolved to do their duty to themselves and to their fellow-citizens as long as any hope remains. They beg to call the attention of your hon. House to means which may be used to enable your hon. House to abolish a large amount of taxes. These means are—the abolition of all sinecure places of every kind, and by whomsoever held; the abolition of all pensions where no services have been performed; the reduction of all pensions to a sum commensurate with real service; abolition of all useless places; reduction of salaries of all overpaid useful places to the lowest sum for which needful services can be adequately performed; reduction of the standing army; reduction in the Ordnance department; abandonment of every colonial establishment for which the colony is unable or unwilling to pay; the most economical arrangement with such colonies as are able and willing to defray all

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the expenses they may incur; application in aid of taxes of the revenue under the management of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests; economy and saving in every department, and in every office; strict accountability of every person in every public employment."
The people, the hon. Member continued' had no longer the means of paying for these enormous establishments. The profits in trade had materially diminished within the last few years; yet a man was called upon to pay the same amount of taxes now, as when his profits were three times as great. Taxes were now three times more burthensome owing to the change in the value of money than they were twenty years ago. The petitioners urged very strongly the importance and necessity of reducing taxation: if, however, to do that were left to the Ministers, he was convinced that no reduction would be made. Indeed, a declaration had gone forth, not only against reduction, but even against an inquiry as to whether reductions could with propriety be effected. The petitioners concluded by stating,
"We beg to direct your prompt and serious attention to those of vital importance—the assessed house and window taxes, which your petitioners feel, beyond the general pressure of taxation, in consequence of the inequality with which they are laid, rendering them unjust in their operation: they further expose your petitioners too frequently to the vindictive feelings of the collectors, and prove a formidable barrier to improvement. We therefore pray your hon. House to take such measures as may enable you to repeal the same, and thus grant immediate relief to your petitioners."
The petitioners prayed for reduction of taxation to such an amount as to give relief to the whole people, and it was his firm opinion, that retrenchments might be made in our various establishments to such an extent as to give relief to the amount of seven millions a-year. This would enable the House to take off the coal-tax, the assessed taxes, the taxes on candles and paper, and, indeed, on all articles which were at present under the control of the Excise. To all these taxes he objected most strongly, not so much on account of the money they levied as the restrictions they imposed on industry; restrictions which checked enterprise, and were utterly and completely at variance with that spirit of free-trade which the Ministers had
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pretended to adopt in our commerce with other countries. But our domestic industry was of more importance than our foreign trade; and a wise government would consider, that its highest duty was, to encourage domestic industry. The abolition of these taxes would immediately revive trade, and give renewed activity to every branch of manufacture, of commerce, and agriculture, as well as allay the growing discontent of the people. Why, too, he would ask, might not the corn-laws be repealed, which operated as a tax to the amount of ten millions a-year, without being of the least benefit to any class of the community? It was his intention to bring that subject under the attention of the House at a very early period, when he hoped that he should be able to shew the impolicy of these laws. He was convinced that they were beneficial neither to the farmer nor the landlord, and that, so far from putting money into the pockets of the agriculturist, they were prejudicial to his interests, by increasing the amount of poor-rates and tithes. When the subject was brought regularly before the House, he would prove that relief could be safely given to the amount of between seven or eight millions a-year, by deductions and retrenchments, and that also a further expense to the country might be saved, of ten or twelve millions a-year, by repealing the corn-laws, which were of no benefit to any class of the community; and also that those taxes, which at present pressed so heavily upon the productive industry, might be transferred to property. By adopting this system, he had no doubt that a saving to the amount of nearly twenty-one millions a-year might be made. If the corn-laws were repealed, those fluctuations would be prevented in the price of agricultural produce, which at present operated most prejudicially to the interest of the consumer. He was satisfied, that by the repeal the situation of the farmer and the agricultural labourer would be materially improved, and great relief would be afforded to all the other classes in the country. He feared, however, that the measures which he recommended would not be adopted unless reform took place, and it was to reform alone that the people must look for an efficient reduction of taxation, and efficient relief.
The Petition to be printed.

COLONIAL, SLAVERY.
Mr. Broughampresented, in the mass, 355 Petitions, praying for the Abolition of Colonial Slavery. Of these, 283 were from places in Yorkshire, and sixty-five from places in Suffolk and Sussex. He declined wasting the time of the House by having them read, and abstained from saying anything respecting their subject matter, until he should bring forward the motion of which he had given notice. If, by great calamity, his motion should be unsuccessful, he was convinced there would soon be twenty petitions for every one now before the House; and he also expressed his perfect confidence, that if his motion touching Reform in Parliament were not also carried, the petitions in support of its object would, in value, weight, and number, far exceed even those against Colonial 3lavery.
LOCAL JURISDICTION BILL.
Mr. Brougham,in moving for leave to bring in this Bill, said, that having last Session so fully explained its nature, object, and provisions, he did not feel he should now be wanting in due respect to the House, or liable to the charge of indifference to the great cause of legal reform, if he abstained from entering on the subject generally, and avoided touching upon principles, reasons, and details. Last Session the Bill was allowed to be brought in, read a first and second time, and committed, upon the understanding that it was to proceed no further that year. Now, he wanted to be admitted to bring it through the same stages in such a manner that it might be carried in a reasonable time, and at such a period of the Session, that it would not be impossible for it to receive the sanction of the other House before the breaking up of Parliament. There were so many matters of a nature more urgent, and of at least equal importance, before the House, that he should not press for the second reading and committal of the Bill before Christmas. He should, however, expect that after that period there would be no delay.

ATTORNEYS — BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that before he sat down, he felt compelled to advert to another topic, which was, however, connected with the measure before the House. He believed there was not a single day during the Session, or during the Recess,
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or during the long vacation since February 1810—when he first entered that House— in which a breach of privilege had not been committed towards the person of the individual who then addressed them. Never, however, was he induced to complain except once—and that rather to oblige a noble person, then in the other House, than from any feeling of his own. An exceedingly offensive expression had been falsely attributed to this individual by the editor of a newspaper, contrary to the report in another part of his paper, and the noble Lord was anxious he (Mr. Brougham) should give him the opportunity of contradicting it, otherwise he would have suffered even that to pass unnoticed; but when there was an attempt made, by threatening letters, to deter a Member of Parliament from doing his duty, he considered himself bound to protest against it. He trusted that it would not be necessary for him to allude to the subject again; but that what he had now to say would operate as a lesson and a warning. He believed the persons who had evinced hostility to him were led on by a false feeling of Corporation-honour, and it was as well to advise them at once not "to lay the flattering unction to their souls" that he would be prevented by a combination of all the attorneys in Christendom, or any apprehensions of loss of practice, from endeavouring to make justice pure and cheap. These gentlemen, when they attacked him, were much mistaken if they thought he would die without defending himself. If the struggle arose, the question would be, whether barristers or attorneys should prevail; and he saw no reason why barristers should not open their doors to clients without the intervention of attorneys and their long bills of costs. He would not be the first to do this; but if he discovered that there was a combination against him, he decidedly would throw himself upon his clients— upon the country gentlemen, the merchants and manufacturers—and if he did not, with the help of that House, beat those leagued against him, he should be more surprised at it than at any misadventure of his life. Several respectable professional gentlemen had called upon him to tell him the meaning of the letter which he held in his hand, but that was unnecessary, for the meaning of it was evident enough. It was supposed, he understood, that he had denied the respectability of solicitors;

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but this supposition was altogether erroneous; he had done no such thing: he had merely said, that there were malpractices among some solicitors, and in the same sentence in which he had said that, he had said also that there were malpractices among some barristers; but he did not mean, nor could any one, he thought, who had heard him, suppose he did mean, to deny the respectability of either branch of the profession. If this error were removed, there would remain no other ground for combination against him, except that he was endeavouring to make law cheap; and solicitors were very much mistaken if they supposed that it was against their interest to enable men to get law cheap. The word "presume" in his bill, which he understood gave much offence, was to be found as the term used in the old Acts of Parliament. In saying, therefore, "if any attorney should presume," he meant no offence, and would have no objection to change it. He felt that the fact of the attorneys being against it would be a great help to his measure. As for any combination against himself, he cared not for it, but he trusted what he now said would be sufficient. He had received a letter which was not to be misunderstood by a lawyer, though the words were rather vague [Several Members called "read, read."] He said he had rather not read it, because it was signed by an individual whose name he did not think it necessary to mention. Suffice it to say, that he was told the attorneys would take every occasion in their power of marking their sense (these words were underlined) of such conduct. The letter, he understood, was a circular.
Sir Robert Peelagreed to the Bill's passing through the same stages as last Session, reserving to himself the right of opposing any part of it he thought exceptionable at a future period. He cordially approved of the Bill so far as it related to the facilitating the recovery of small debts; and if, on account of objections to other parts of the Bill, it was ultimately rejected, he would be happy to originate or support a measure which should have in view the object of which he so highly approved.
Mr. Campbellalso approved of the facilitating the recovery of small debts; but he thought the Bill went too far. He would not then, however, state his objections. With respect to the threats held out against the hon. and learned Gentleman,
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with his profound and varied learning, and his brilliant eloquence, he might defy any combination.
Mr. Tennantdeclared he would oppose the Bill. He would not then enter into details, he would only say, that the Bill would make a very great alteration in our Courts, and in the whole administration of justice, and would, he believed, add very much to the expenses of the country.
Mr. Tennysonapproved of the Bill, but wished that the House should come to an early decision, as the plan for the recovery of small debts, involved in it, was of great importance.
Mr. O' Connellwas the friend of cheap justice. He wished Mr. Brougham had turned his powerful mind to the general system, and made a thorough reform, carrying cheap justice home to every man's door. He would also repeat his wish that there was a code, for without that there would be no certainty in the law.
Mr. Broughamdisclaimed any intention of pulling down the judicial establishments of the country. On the contrary, he wished much of them to be preserved; and all he desired was, to reform those abuses which, whether introduced by the change of circumstances, or by defects in the original formation of these establishments, were now found united with them. He contended that his plan was not expensive, except at first starting, but that after it had been once established, the fees would more than pay the expenses. The small Courts in Scotland showed the correctness of this assertion. Now he was upon this subject, he wished to make one observation on an Essay published concerning him and his plans, written in a dialect of our language, which left no man at liberty to mistake the author—a most esteemed and valued and venerable friend of his—and in which he was accused, in direct and unmeasured terms—in terms of vituperation and abuse, that he certainly never expected from such an excellent and venerable person, and that went to charge him with being not only a mock reformer of the laws, but an opponent of all reforms— a person influenced by corrupt motives, and a dangerous enemy to the good of the State. The proof of such a charge was this, and a most curious proof it was:—that although the reforms he proposed might effect a present reduction of the expenses of litigation, yet that, in a few years, the

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amount of litigation would be so much increased, that the profits of the lawyers would be proportionally augmented. Now with respect to that argument, he would merely say, that whereas in the Circuit which he had now the honour to attend, there had been at the last assizes ninety-seven causes in a particular county, eighty-six of which would certainly have been cut off by his plan; he was so little influenced by corrupt motives, that he wished his plan to be adopted, though it would thus cut off eight-ninths of his business. The other party, however, admitted that consequence to be true, but said, that he expected a still greater increase at the expiration of a few years. He would only answer this by observing, that lawyers were not generally (especially those lawyers who, like him, were approaching the close of their career) men who, with the simplicity of the dog in the fable, in order to grasp at a shadow that seemed larger, quitted their hold of the substance they possessed. He made these remarks not in anger (for he esteemed and valued the author of the Essay too much, and held the charge itself too lightly to be angry), but with a view to show how little foundation there was for it. He did not think that any answer whatever had been made to the plan he proposed.
Mr. Brucesaid, that three new Judges were about to be appointed, but if the plan of his hon. and learned friend were adopted, a great part of the business of the Courts would apparently be taken away, and then, he wished to know, where would be the necessity for their appointment?
Mr. Broughamanswered, that two or three years at least must intervene before the change he proposed could produce all the effects he wished; and when it did, the only thing necessary was, for the Ministers to leave the vacancies on the Bench unfilled. He wished to take this opportunity of asking the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department why one appointment had been made in the Exchequer, at the expense of depriving the Court of King's Bench of a most amiable and excellent man, and a most learned and admirable Judge?
Sir Robert Peelsaid, that a part of the plan of the law reforms, was to equalize the fees of the Courts, and thus, as far as possible, to equalize the business of the Exchequer with that of the other Courts.
Mr. Broughamreplied, that the equalization of fees never would produce such an effect. Under present circumstances, to which he need do no more than barely allude, business would not be driven into the Exchequer.
Motion agreed to, and Bill brought in.

CIVIL LIST—PRIVY COUNCIL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerlaid on the Table certain Papers containing an account of the Civil List expenditure. They were ordered to be printed. He then gave notice, that on Friday next, he should move that the House do resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, to consider so much of the Speech of his Majesty as related to the Civil List.
Mr. Humewished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman intended on that night to propose a vote to the House, or merely to make a statement on which he should afterwards ask for a vote?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he should on that night move his Resolutions.
Mr. Humeremarked, that in that case, the House would be taken by surprise, as they could not in such haste be prepared to vote the Civil List; and if the resolutions were pressed, he should certainly be compelled to take the sense of the House against coming to any decision at that time.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the Papers he had just laid on the Table contained full information on the subject.
Sir James Grahamcalled the attention of the right hon. Gentleman opposite to the return he had moved for last Session, respecting the salaries, pay, profit, and emoluments of those gentlemen who received more than 1,000 l. a year. Though his motion had been carried, that return had not yet been made, and the House could not be called on to come to any resolution regarding the Civil List while they were uninformed on that subject.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that every exertion had been made to complete that return, but two or three names were yet wanting. If the hon. Baronet would consent to receive it in that imperfect state, it could be given to him in a few days at furthest.
Sir J. Grahamhoped no vote for the Civil List would be called for till that return was furnished.
Mr. Tennysonshould oppose any vote for the Civil List till the House at large were fully informed upon the plan on which it was to be framed; and he called on the Ministers not to put the House in the situation of appearing to refuse anything to his Majesty, when, in fact, they would only be hesitating about coming to a vote till the Ministers had given them the information they properly required.
Mr. Maberlyurged the necessity of furnishing the House with all proper information before the vote on the Civil List was called for.
Mr. Humesaid, if the right hon. Gentleman pressed for a vote on Friday night, he should certainly be obliged to take the sense of the House against it.