Commons Sitting of 9 March 1830

MINUTBS.
MR. WARD took the Oaths and his Seat as Member for Leominster.
Accounts were ordered, on the Motion of Mr. HUME, of Cotton Yam and Twists exported from this Country from 1826 to 1829, inclusive, together with their value, &c.:—of the Four and a Half per Cent Duties on Goods imported into Barbadoes, and other neighbouring Colonies, which had before been laid on the Table, down to 1819, to be brought down to the present time, with a view, as the hon. Member said, of attempting to relieve the West Indies from this charge, which they were quite unable to bear:—Of the persons employed in Commissions of Inquiry in the year 1829, of the Balances paid them, of the Expenses of the Commissions and of the Reports made to the House.
On the Motion of Colonel SIBTHORP, Accounts were ordered, of all Persons in the Civil and Military Establishments of Great Britain and Ireland holding two or more situations, or receiving two or more pensions or allowances, in the year 1829, with the name, date, &c.:—of all Offices, Pensions, Fees, and Allowances of any kind, held in Reversion; with the names of the occupant, the reversioner, the date, and the particulars.
On the Motion of Sir JAMBS GRAHAM, of the Names and Offices of all Persons now employed in the respective Civil Departments of the United Kingdom, whose Salaries and Emoluments exceed 2501. per annum; shewing the compensation amount in 1815 and 1829; the grounds on which increase, if any, had been made, and giving the date of that increase:—of the Net Amount of the Revenue
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collected in each Department, and the rate per cent at which such collection was made:—of the Items of the Expenditure, including charges for conveyance out and home, and for outfit, of the Diplomatic Consular Establishment to the New States of South America, with the time of Residence of each Consul, since January 1st, 1825.
Notices were given by Sir JAMES GRAHAM, that, on Friday next, he would move for the following Return:—Of all Salaries, Profits, Pay, Fees, and Emoluments, whether Civil or Military, from 5th January, 1829, to the 5th January, 1830, held and enjoyed by each Member of the Privy Council; specifying the total amount received by each individual, and distinguishing the various sources from which they were derived; and also that, on Friday, before the House resolved itself into a Committee on the Navy Estimates, he would move a Resolution respecting the recent appointment of the Treasurer of the Navy.
Leave was obtained by Mr. POULETT THOMSON, to bring in a Bill to Amend the Laws relating to Usury. A Bill was brought in to regulate the Office of Sheriff in Ireland. The Game Bill was read a second time. The Exchequer Bills Bill, and the Transfer of Aids Bill were passed. The Mutiny Bill went through a Committee. The Pensions and Duties Bill was read a first time. The Estimates of the Army Extraordinarily, Civil Contingencies, and expense of the Commissariat Department were laid on the Table. An humble Address was ordered to be presented to his Majesty, for a copy of the Commission issued for Inquiry into the Ecclesiastical Courts of England and Wales: also for an Account of the Expenditure, including Charges of Conveyance and outfit for Diplomatic and Insular Establishments in the New States of America.

HERRING FISHERY—SCOTLAND.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusson, in presenting a Petition from the Magistrates and others of Cromarty, engaged in the cure of Herrings, praying for the continuance of the bounty on that branch of industry, stated that the people engaged in this trade, by aid of this bounty had been enabled to carry it on, and that it nourished 48,000 sea-

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men, as hardy as any in Britain. If it were withdrawn, these men would be unable to obtain a living. Many of them, too, had been driven from their former dwellings by its having been found expedient to appropriate the land to a different purpose, and they had found a resource from starvation in this fishery. He did not suppose it would be necessary for him to point out to the House the importance, in a national point of view, of our fisheries as forming a nursery for our seamen; but he must say, it would be very impolitic were the Government to embrace any policy which would drive these men from our shores, and compel them to seek a home and employment in a foreign land. He was well aware of the theory on which these bounties were withdrawn; but he must say, practically speaking, to turn such a body of men from our shores, at a time when France and Holland were encouraging their commerce to the utmost of their power, was neither politic nor wise. It was breaking up our naval militia. The petitioners stated, that the bounty would not be wholly lost to the state, but repaid in the shape of various taxes, which, without this bounty, they would be unable to pay, and unable to get a living. The petitioners prayed that the Government would at least continue a part of the bounty, for if it were all withdrawn, they declared that it would be utterly unable for them to carry on their business. On a subject of so much importance, he hoped he might be excused if he earnestly called on the House and the Government to give it their serious consideration.

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
Sir William Rowley, in presenting Petitions from several Hundreds in Suffolk, praying for the remission of the Duties on Malt and Beer, stated that the petitioner, in common with all the agriculturists, were suffering under vast distress, which they said was much enhanced by the Duties on Malt and Beer pressing particularly on them, by preventing the consumption of Barley. He earnestly prayed, that the Government would give ear to the petitioners, and give relief to the Agricultural Interest, by repealing these and other burthens.

DISTRESS IN THE IRON TRADE.
Mr. Alderman Thompson, in presenting a Petition signed by 400 respectable inhabit-
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ants of Merthyr-Tydvil, complaining of great distress, said that the petitioners had so little business, and profits were so low, that they were hardly able to exist. The manufacturers and artizans having barely the necessaries of life, the shopkeepers and tradesmen were suffering most severely, and many of them had no business at all. The petitioners prayed for a reduction of taxation, as the only means of relief. He could bear his testimony to the truth of the petition, but he was bound to add that he believed the pressure would speedily pass away. He would enter into further particulars did he not anticipate a better opportunity for doing so when the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyne brought forward his motion.
Sir Christopher Colebore his testimony to the severe sufferings of the petitioners, and at the same time said, they had, in the midst of all their sufferings, displayed invariable loyalty and good conduct. He was happy, however, to say, that there had of late been a gradual improvement in the trade of that part of the country.
Petition read and printed.
Lord Althorppresented a Petition from the Grand Jury of the County of Northampton, complaining of the sums of money paid for passing Irish and Scotch Vagrants. It was difficult, his Lordship said, to credit the expense to which parishes were subject on this account. A single parish, in 1825, paid 797 l. for the purpose; in 1828 it paid 688 l., and last year 777 l. If by this expense those paupers were permanently removed, so as not again to become a burthen, it might be borne, but it unfortunately happened that the same expense was incurred, year after year, in passing the same identical paupers, who amused themselves apparently travelling through the country at the expense of the different parishes. Some legislative provision was, he thought, necessary on this subject, and he hoped hon. Members would attend to it.
Mr. Cartwrightstated, that he fully concurred in what had fallen from the noble Lord, and agreed with him that some remedy ought to be applied to this evil. The necessity of passing vagrants caused an enormous expense to parishes.
Mr. Greeneconcurred in this representation of the evil. In the absence of a noble Lord (Stanley), he begged to say that it was his intention to bring some measure respecting this subject under the

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notice of the House at an early day. He knew of one parish in Lancashire which was subject, on this account, to an annual expense of nearly 3,000 l.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonsaid, that there was abundant proof of the expense occasioned by Irish vagrants; but he knew no examples of money thus spent in the conveyance of Scotch vagrants. Scotland would be glad to maintain her own vagrants, if she had none others to support, but she was burthened to a great extent with the expense of supporting Irish paupers.
Mr. Mundayexpressed his satisfaction, that an evil which had long been seriously felt in many parts of the country, had at length attracted the attention of the House, and he hoped that the committee, for which he understood the noble Lord meant to move, might devise some remedy.
Sir James Grahamsaid, he could inform his hon. friend the Member for Kircudbright, that the expense of passing Scotch paupers was very considerable in the county which he represented.
Mr. C. Davenportcould also inform the House, that where he resided, the expense of passing Scotch and Irish paupers was very great, and he would give his strenuous support to any measure for relieving the country from this enormous expense.
Sir M. W. Ridleyalso asserted, that the expense of passing Scotch vagrants was very considerable, and which fell very heavy in some of the northern counties. Where he resided it was very severely felt, and would, he was afraid, continue as long as the practice was continued of banishing men from Scotland. Whether that were a punishment or not to the individuals he would not say, but it was a severe infliction for the northern parts of England which had to pay for the passing and repassing of these banished Scotchmen.
Mr. O'Connellthought, that if Irish vagrants were to be driven from this country, their deportation should be provided for at the expense, not of the country to which they were going, but of that in which they had spent their life, and enriched by their labour. It would be cruel on those men, after having spent their youth in the service of England, to send them back in their old age to starve in Ireland, or be a burthen on a land they had voluntarily quitted. There was an-
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other class of vagrants he should like to see transported to Ireland. He meant the rich vagrants, who collected their rents in that country, to spend them in foreign lands.
Mr. Littletonsaid, that he did not think the case of the Irish vagrants was quite what the hon. and learned Member for Clare represented it. They did not benefit the country one-half so much by their labour as they injured it by the excessive competition they introduced, and the paupers their system of working created. He could assert, that they were a real grievance to the central counties. Staffordshire alone had paid 2,000 l. a-year for the expenses of their removal, and the sum was increasing. He trusted the hon. Member for Lancaster would soon submit to the House some measure to remedy this evil.
Mr. George Dawsonsaid, that injustice was often committed towards Ireland in removing thither the female vagrants with whom the men had formed connections in this country. With regard to Scotland, he could show that invitations were often sent over to Ireland for labourers to go to Scotland, where they were wanted to underwork the active labourers of the soil, and they were then sent back in a very miserable condition, after they had served the purposes of those who had called them over.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonobserved, that the hon. Gentleman must be mistaken, as Scotland unfortunately possessed no power of sending back the vagrants to their own country. That was the great defect in her law. In one county alone there had been 40,000 Irish paupers. He repeated what he had before said, that Scotland would gladly maintain her own poor if she had no others to support. In reply to his hon. friend, the Member for Cumberland, he would say that he did not assert that there were no Scotch vagrants in England, but only that the number was small.
Mr. Griffithsaid, the hon. and learned Member for Clare was mistaken in the way in which he had spoken of the Irish vagrants. Our great evil was, that as soon as they had been sent back to Ireland they came back again, and out of a large number very few would at any time be found who had not been in this country before. They made a trade of this passing and repassing between the two countries.
Sir R. Heronsaid, that the Irish labourers who found their way into Lincolnshire were very useful, and he had generally found them to be very orderly, well behaved men.
General Gascoynedeclared that the Irish vagrants were a grievous tax upon the people of Liverpool. One-half, or nearly two-thirds of the taxes raised in that town for the poor, were directly or indirectly consumed on account of the Irish vagrants. He thought an act ought to be passed declaring that every person who brought over an Irishman here, and did not give security that he should not become a burthen to any parish, should be liable either to pay a penalty, or to have him sent back to Ireland. He was quite sure that England would gladly take back all her paupers, from both Ireland and Scotland, if those two countries would undertake to receive their own from this country. He hoped the noble Lord would lose no time in bringing forward his promised measure.
Mr. Slaneythought, that all the schemes for preventing the emigration of the vagrants of one of the three countries into either of the other two would be found useless, so long as the condition of the labouring classes in either of the three was superior to that of the same men in the other. The only mode of preventing the emigration of Irish vagrants here was to raise the condition of the peasantry of that country, and to place them as nearly as possible on a level with the peasantry of England.
Mr. O'Connelldenied, that the poor of Ireland were any worse off than those of England. At least, they were not subject to the tyranny of parish overseers and select vestries.
Sir C. Burrellcontended, that select vestries, which in London were considered such evils, in the country produced great advantage. They exercised no tyranny over the poor, but promoted their happiness.
Mr. G. Dawsoncontended, in opposition to what had fallen from the hon. and gallant Member for Liverpool, that that town derived the highest benefit from its contiguity to Ireland, instead of sustaining any injury, and that the Irish labourers paid in the sweat of their brows for whatever they obtained in this country. Very few cases could, he believed, be found, of an Irishman being a willing pauper. He
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would be glad to work if he could get employment, and only begged when he was sick or out of work.
Mr. Benettargued that the evil arose out of a difference of laws relating to the poor prevailing in England and Ireland. The sure remedy was, to establish the same Poor-laws in both. The existing tithe-system in Ireland prevented the outlay of capital upon the land there, and the extension of cultivation. If some equitable means could be found out for commuting the tithes there, it would give, he believed, a great stimulus to the demand for labour in the country, and both keep the peasantry at home, and improve their condition.
Mr. Protheroeconcurred with the hon. Member for Wiltshire, and said, he was sure that the evil must speedily be remedied some way or other.
Sir Robert Inglisstated, that the expense of removing every pauper was as great as if he were sent by the mail, and the expense fell on counties lying betwixt Liverpool and London, which derived little or no benefit from the labour of Irish labourers.
Petition read.

WELSH JUDICATURE.
Mr. R. Trevor, after observing that he wished the Judges of Wales to be placed upon the same footing as those of England, and that he for one could not consent to the dividing and mixing up of counties for the sake of making assize districts, presented a Petition from the freeholders of the County of Carmarthen against the Bill for the alteration of the Welsh Judicature. The hon. Member added, that he in a great degree concurred in the prayer of the petition. There might be some improvements in the present system, but he could not agree to its total abolition. Some Gentlemen spoke of the Welsh law as a foreign code; it was, in fact, the old English law differently, and in some respects better, administered.
Petition laid upon the Table.
Sir J. Owenpresented a Petition with the same prayer, from between 1,800 and 1,900 freeholders of the County of Pembroke. He concurred heartily in the prayer of the petition.
Mr. Jonespresented a similar Petition from the Sheriff, Magistrates, &c. of the Borough of Carmarthen. The hon. Member trusted that no attempt would

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be made, as had been threatened, to hurry the Bill through the House before Easter. He looked on the proposed plan as an untried experiment, of which the good was doubtful, and before it was carried into execution he wished that the Bill should be printed, and circulated in Wales at least a twelvemonth. The Welsh had not complained of the present system, and when they did it would be time enough to alter it. He did not charge it against any member of the Government; but it had been said, that whether the Welsh liked the measure or not, they should be forced to swallow it. From that he claimed the protection of the House, and complained that the nature of the Bill had been kept as secret from those it was to affect, as if it were a state mystery.
Sir C. Colesaid, that the borough of Glamorgan was in favour of the Bill before the House.
Mr. Peeldenied that any mystery had been kept up regarding the Bill, which had originated in the recommendation of a commission, after due inquiry. It had been submitted to Parliament last year, and he had himself seen sixteen or eighteen gentlemen connected with the Principality on the subject, so that there was no pretence for saying that the matter had been kept secret. He, however, concurred in the objection that had been raised respecting the division of counties, and full time, he said should be allowed, to enable the people of Wales to give an opinion upon the whole measure.
Mr. Jonesreiterated his objection to the alteration of the system, excepting as far as regarded placing the Welsh Judges upon the same footing as those of England.
Mr. Peelwas ready to enter into this compact, that all due time for consideration should be allowed, provided the hon. Member and his friends would not throw needless impediments in the way, so as to prevent the passing of the Bill in the present Session.
Mr. Jonesconsented to these terms, and laid upon the Table two other Petitions, with the same prayer as that he before presented, one from the Burgesses and Commonalty of Carmarthen, and the other from Kidwelly.
Colonel Powellpresented a similar Petition from the freeholders of the County of Cardigan.

JUDGE JEBB.
Mr. O'Connell, after referring to a charge given to the Grand Jury by one of the Irish Judges, which was in opposition to the tenor of a Proclamation issued by the Government, moved "that there be laid before the House a Memorial addressed to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, on the subject of certain prosecutions for murder to be tried at the next Assizes for the county of Fermanagh."
Lord F. L. Gowerobjected to the production of such documents, unless some ground of suspicion were previously laid: to grant it, would imply a want of impartiality in the executive government of Ireland, and the precedent would be liable to inconvenience and abuse. He heard with considerable regret anything like an insinuation against a member of the Bench of Ireland—Judge Jebb; and he felt bound to state, that were his own life in jeopardy on any charge, he should think he could not intrust it to any Judge more safely than to that distinguished individual.
Mr. Peelthought it would be dangerous to set a precedent like that now attempted to be established. It appeared that a judge of one of the superior Courts of Ireland differed in opinion from the executive government on the subject of a certain proclamation. Judges were intended to control the executive government when it attempted unduly to interfere with the liberty of the subject. He protested against the production of the memorial.
Mr. O'Connelldid not intend, in the most remote degree, to charge the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland with partiality: any man who did so would be guilty of a high crime, inasmuch as he would do gross injustice to that noble personage. The parties accused felt their lives at stake, as a judge who had expressed such a hostile opinion was about to try them. He thought that the better mode would be for the parties interested to present a petition.
Mr. Peeladded, that he did not mean to impute the slightest partiality to the executive government of Ireland, and he was himself a party to the proclamation from which Judge Jebb had dissented.
Mr. O'Connellwithdrew his Motion.

EAST INDIA CHARTER.
Mr. Littleton, in presenting a Petition from the Proprietors of various Iron Mines in the Coun-

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ties of Stafford and Worcester, against the Monopoly enjoyed by the East-India Company, complained in strong terms of the privations to which the operatives in that trade were exposed, and adverted shortly to communications which he had some time ago had with the President of the Board of Trade. The parties to the present petition had then remonstrated against admitting foreign corn and steel into this country. Their remonstrance had been effectual, and they had now become sensible of the justice of the views they there opposed.
Mr. Huskissonremembered the application made by the hon. Member at the Board of Trade, and he also remembered telling him, and those by whom he was accompanied, that the hardware trade of this country would be most materially improved and benefitted by the introduction into this country of the lighter productions of other countries; and he had no doubt that that effect would be produced were the cause allowed to come into Full operation. He was formerly of opinion that allowing the raw material to be brought into this country, would be a benefit; our manufacturers would be able to make their articles cheaper, and foreigners have something to exchange for them. He was glad to find that the people were beginning to be sensible of the advantages of the liberal policy he had recommended; and had that not been followed, he believed that our present difficulties would have been much greater. He would not then enter further into the subject, but he could not permit that opportunity to pass of acknowledging the honourable and candid manner in which the gentlemen who attended on that occasion, and formerly opposed him, now admitted that the measures then in progress for removing the restriction on foreign trade have turned out for the good of the country; and that the originators of those measures intended them to be productive of good.
Mr. Robinsonthought the right hon. Gentleman drew a hasty conclusion when h inferred, because these petitioners were not suffering, that his measures must have been beneficial to the whole country.
Mr. Littletonsaid, the petitioners were suffering much; that no one engaged in the Iron Trade in England, Wales, or Scotland, was free from very severe privations.
The Petition was brought up and ordered to be printed.

SUPPLY.
Mr. Fysche Palmerthen rose;
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, he hoped the hon. Member would allow the Report of the Committee of Supply to be brought up.
Mr. Fysche Palmerhad no objection, on the understanding that he should be allowed to move afterwards.
On the question that the Report of the Committee of Supply be brought up,
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, that in bringing forward the Resolution with which he intended to conclude, he meant to convey no imputation whatever upon the great and illustrious men who had served their country, either in the Army or the Navy; all he wished was, to establish a principle, he hoped a correct principle, upon which the half-pay of military officers might in future be regulated. It had been customary to introduce into the Appropriation Act a clause regulating the half-pay and allowances of the military. Early in the reign of the late King, it was made a rule that no officer on half-pay should hold a civil office without giving up his half-pay or retired allowance. This practice was continued from the year 1761 to the year 1820, when it was, for the first time, departed from, and by a new regulation, officers on half-pay were allowed to retain their civil employments, if any they had, and their half-pay at the same time. The Finance Committee recommended a recurrence to the ancient usage, and from that time to this, the regulation he spoke of remained on the old footing. Thus the House would see that the deviation from the ancient practice was to be found in the change of 1820, and the recommendation of the Committee went to a restoration of the old practice. He thought, that when the House came to look at the facts, it would agree with him, that the same regulations ought to apply to full as to half pay, and that neither should be retained by the holder of a civil office. He did not object to a military man holding a civil office; but when he did hold a civil employment he ought not to enjoy a greater benefit than a civilian holding a similar situation. Why should he possess greater benefits than the civil servants of the state? For example, if any person holding a Parliamentary pension obtain a civil employment, the practice up to this time has been, that he

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make his election between the one and the other. If he accepted the one, the other immediately abated. A military officer, however, on full pay, accepting a civil situation, did not relinquish thereupon the full pay, but the holder of half-pay lost it instantly. In that there was anything but fairness. There was a remarkable case then before them, the Secretary at War enjoyed no half-pay for his military service, but his right hon. friend beside him enjoyed his full pay, though he held along with that full pay the situation of Secretary to the Colonies. The Secretary-at-War, then, and the Secretary to the Colonies, though both of them officers of distinguished merit, stood in situations altogether different. He was aware he might be told that the regiments which colonels held were their own property, and that they ought not to be deprived of those on account of any civil office which they might subsequently take. To that he had to say, that he did not propose to take away from those colonels the regiments they might hold, but merely suspend the military emoluments which they held while the civil emoluments were accruing. Here he might, in passing, observe, that the mode of paying colonels, of regiments at present in use was one of which he entirely disapproved. In the report of Mr. Abbot on the Army Estimates this practice was judiciously mentioned, and he conceived very properly condemned. It might also be objected to the view which he was taking of this question, that those who were on half and those who were on full pay, did not stand upon the same footing, and ought not to be treated alike; but he thought the rule as to civil offices ought to be precisely the same. He believed that there were some instances, even where half-pay did not stand in the way of holding civil offices; thus a Navy Lord might hold his half-pay as an Admiral, and his full pay as a General of Marines, and his situation at the Board besides. He found it utterly impossible to discover any reason why full pay should not stand exactly on the same footing as the half-pay. It might be, that he thought the present regulations somewhat too strict; but whatever might be thought of them, there could be no doubt that fair play demanded that no difference should be made between one class of retired military officers and another. He hoped he had been in nowise discourteous in his remarks, and
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he begged particularly to guard himself against being thought to convey the slightest offence towards any of the gallant officers in that House, or in the service. Most of all, he was desirous of guarding himself against being supposed to mean aught disrespectful to an illustrious General, who held his military and civil incomes without the one being at all allowed to interfere with the other. He should be the last in the world to endeavour to deprive those illustrious and gallant individuals of the reward of their services; they had the highest claims upon the justice and upon the liberality of their country. With respect to a great number of those now upon the half-pay list, he must be allowed to say, that nothing could be more melancholy than the condition in which they were placed. They were, for the most part, men of birth and education, who had served their country for years; some of them had lost their limbs and their health in that service, or had spent their property in endeavouring to attain that rank in the army which they had attained, and which left them now without the means of maintaining their station in society. Struggling against difficulties such as these, they still could have no just ground of complaint if the small amount of their stipend arose from the real necessities of the country; but when they saw other military men, not more deserving than themselves, in possession of civil offices and full pay, with such things before their eyes, it would be no matter of surprise that they should be discontented. Fair and equal justice ought to be granted them, and in the distribution of emoluments no difference should be made between the weak and the powerful. He hoped, too, that in meeting his Resolution, no nice distinctions would be set up between officers holding elevated rank, or subordinate rank. He then moved as an Amendment to the Motion for receiving the Report of the Committee of Supply, the following Resolution:—"That it is the opinion of this House, that, as certain regulations arc in force by which Half-pay officers of the Navy, Army, Ordnance, or Marines, are prevented from receiving the whole or part of their Half-pay during the period they may enjoy the emoluments of any Civil office, it is expedient and just that the same regulations shall extend to all Officers of the Army, Navy, Ordnance, or Marines, in the receipt of Full pay or of

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profit from Naval or Military allowance, or from emoluments from Naval or Military appointments."
Sir Henry Hardingeadmitted the perfect fairness of the statement made by the hon. Member who had just sat down. Nothing could be fairer or more courteous than his observations, and he congratulated the gentlemen on half-pay on their possessing so able an advocate. With respect, in the first place, to the alterations made in the year 1820, and the change by the Finance Committee, he at the time, as now, pronounced that change to be exceedingly ill-judged. It was neither economical nor politic. There were many places of small emolument, which ought, nevertheless, to be filled by respectable persons; by persons who offered a long life of integrity, and possessed a commission as a guarantee to their employers; but such men, he believed, could no where be found, unless among officers on half-pay, and they would not accept such offices unless they were allowed to retain their half-pay. As an illustration of the effect which the refusal to allow half-pay to be retained by officers accepting other appointments, he would instance the case of a captain appointed to the situation of barrack-master. The pay of a barrack-master was 7s. 6d., the half pay of a captain 7s. If a captain accepted a barrack-mastership, he lost his half-pay—the two together were but 14 s. 6d. If he resigned the one for the other, he undertook heavy and laborious duties, considerable responsibility, the expense and inconvenience of a residence abroad—all for 6d. a day. Upon those grounds, and he thought them sufficient, he disapproved of the change, and he thought it productive of the most evident injustice. He thought that full pay, or retired allowances granted for military services ought to be retained, and certainly thought the same rule ought to apply to half-pay; but the House would be surprised to learn how few officers on full pay had also civil appointments. In the service there were under the rank of major-general, 5,260 officers on full pay, and of that number there were only three in the civil service whom he could discover. There was one in a colonial situation—there was a Captain Turner, as secretary to the Governor of Bermuda; but he had no staff-pay as Aide-de-camp. The third was in the 7th regiment, stationed at Botany Bay,
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where he held the situation of Clerk to the Council, for which he received 100 l. a-year. He was perfectly ready to discuss the question, as the hon. Member had proposed to discuss it, as a matter of ancient usage; but he thought that, upon examination, it would be found that the ancient usage was rather against the hon. Member than against the views which he took of the question. Now let them take the case of colonels of regiments—they always retained the emoluments of their regiments, notwithstanding any civil situation to which they might be appointed—that had always been the practice; and he would contend that it was a practice which ought to be continued. To go back to the case of the Duke of Marl-borough, which was going back far enough—and the case of the Duke of Marl-borough was one which he trusted even the hon. Member for Montrose would acknowledge as an authority of some weight—that distinguished individual held the first regiment of Guards, the office of Master-General of the Ordnance, and of Constable of the Tower. The Duke of Wellington held the same offices, and under the same circumstances; and to that, he expected, no one would be found to enter a valid objection. As to what the hon. Member had said respecting his right hon. friend near him, and himself, he saw nothing invidious in the comparison. His own services were far inferior to those of his right hon. friend. In due time, if he lived, he might expect to attain the same rank in the army as his right hon. friend; but until they should stand upon the same footing professionally, he declared himself quite content with the advantages he then possessed. His right hon. friend had a regiment; the income of a regiment generally averaged about 1,000 l. a-year. Previous to the appointment of his right hon. friend to the situation he at present held, he was Governor of Edinburgh Castle. That he resigned; and he then held the office of Governor of Fort George, which produced 470 l.; so that the whole of his reward for a life of military service, was about 1,500 l. a-year. To punish him by taking that away, merely because he undertook to serve the state in some other way, was anything but fair and equal justice. When General Fitzpatrick held the office of Secretary-at-War, he had long been inefficient as a military officer, He was

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given a regiment, and enjoyed the full pay, with all the emoluments of the office. There was another case—that of the Lieutenant Governor of the Tower, and the Surveyor General of the Ordnance, who had each 1,200 l. a-year. Were either of those officers to give up their regiments they would just receive 200 l. a-year for their services. What motive, then, could they have for accepting office? Let the House only look at the grounds upon which the hon. Member pressed his Motion. He said, that they dealt harshly with the half-pay officers, and he called upon them to deal as harshly with those upon full pay; for wherein lay the difference?—the officer who received full pay had earned it as well and was as justly entitled to it as the officer on half-pay. The hon. Member was inclined to propose, that when a general officer received a civil appointment, he should immediately resign his regiment; but the income of that regiment was given chiefly on account of the great responsibility which the colonel of a regiment necessarily undertook. A colonel was often bound to pay large sums to Government on account of the various persons connected with the regiment, who might happen to become defaulters. Recently he had to call upon the colonel of one regiment for a sum of l,500 l.; upon the colonel of another, for 1,800 l.; and upon the colonel of another, for 2,000 l., though the last-mentioned sum was afterwards reduced to 1,400 l. Colonels of regiments were answerable for agents for clothing, and for a variety of other matters, for which they could not be made responsible if their incomes were withdrawn or suspended. Within the present year, ten general officers had been appointed to regiments, and he had institued an inquiry into their length of service and their ages, and he had struck an average—he found that the average period of service was thirty-nine years, and their average age fifty-five years. The 130 regiments in the service afforded the only prizes in the profession to 13,000 officers on full and half pay belonging to it. Would the House be disposed to withdraw those prizes? He hoped, that with those facts before them, Members would see the necessity rather of rejecting than of adopting the Resolution of the hon. Gentleman, in case he should deem it right to press that Motion to a division, which, he hoped, would not prove the case.
Mr. C. Woodsupported the Motion, and said, that he heard nothing to invalidate his hon. friend's statements. The gallant officer had shown, that half-pay officers were harshly treated; but he had not given any reason why officers on whole pay should be suffered to have the emoluments both of civil and military employments. In his opinion, the pay of an officer ought to abate when he took a civil office.
Sir Francis Burdettsaid a few words against the Motion. He was sorry that he could not agree with his hon. friend; for he was not aware of any reason why officers who had passed a long life in the service of their country, should be excluded from accepting office in the civil departments of the country; and he thought, that when they did, it would be very hard to deprive them of their military pay and emoluments. He saw no reason for depriving any class of officers of that half-pay which they had so hardly earned. As he understood the Motion, it would go to deprive some officers of their half-pay, which was quite contrary to the general principles which, he thought, ought to be acted on. He was quite aware of the necessity of encouraging the Ministers to practise that economy which was now required by the country, but he could not consent to urge that economy at the expense of individuals.
Mr. C. Fergussonobserved, that there were many situations with small salaries which could not be properly filled except by half-pay officers, and he thought it was hard to deprive them of the power of holding such offices. If the subject were likely to be taken into consideration by his Majesty's Government, he would recommend his hon. friend to withdraw his Motion.
Lord Althorpfelt all the inconvenience of Ministers beng placed in a situation of refusing to make allowances and grant superannuations to gentlemen; he felt, however, that the House was placed in a critical situation; and while he regretted the difficulty in which Government was placed, he must insist that it was the duty of the House to press economy on the Government. It was painful, perhaps, for Members to enforce economy when it affected individuals, but there was a necessity for them, being trustees for the public, not to allow their feelings to get the better of their duty to the public.

19
The statement made by his hon. friend had not been answered, in the slightest degree, by the right hon. Gentleman. It seemed to him a partial system to deprive the lower ranks of officers of their half-pay if they accepted civil situations, and to allow the higher ranks to retain their full pay with official situations. Such a system ought not to be continued. The hon. Baronet and the hon. Member for Kircudbright seemed to think that the half-pay was to be continued at the same amount as it ever had been; and if that were the way in which they pressed economy on the Government, they might be sure that the Government would steadily attend to their recommendation. Being convinced of the necessity of doing everything possible to enforce economy, and limit the national expenditure, he should give his vote for the Motion of the hon. Member.
Mr. Huskissonwas disposed generally to concur in the views of the noble Lord; but considering all the circumstances of the case, he should feel more satisfaction if the Motion were not pressed to a division. He thought that the time was come when the whole system of superannuations, allowances, pensions, and half-pay must, from the circumstances of the country, become a subject of investigation. The House ought to go into such an inquiry, not with reference solely to half-pay or full pay, but with reference to every kind of salary, pension, and allowance. It would be wise and good policy to do so, and the Government ought to be encouraged to take the arduous task into its own hands. He admitted that the recompense of the half-pay was well earned, but the House must look at the difficulties under which the country was placed. If, according to the statement of his right hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of seventeen millions expended annually only eleven millions were applied to the efficient and active service of the country, while six millions were paid for superannuation allowances, pensions, and half-pay, and if this sum had been increasing since 1822, it was time to consider if the whole establishment could not be gradually diminished, instead of taking any partial view. He had listened with attention to his right hon. friend, the Secretary of War, but had not clearly understood that there was any other difference between continuing the full pay
20
to officers holding other situations, and not continuing the half-pay, than that the one was usual, and the other not. As to the colonels of regiments, he did not look on their appointments as a remuneration for past services; these appointments involved, he believed, certain duties, and the colonels had no other remuneration. He wished to see the principle of the Act of Parliament extended to all classes of pensions and allowances. It would be well for the Government to take up this subject; but if it did not, and if no other hon. Member, more competent to the task than himself, did, he did not know that he should not call the attention of the House to the subject, before the close of the Session. Something like principle ought to be acted on throughout; and he thought that the principle of the bill introduced by the hon. Member for Dorsetshire, that on the acceptance of an office, double the value of any half-pay or allowance, the latter should be suspended; and on the acceptance of an office of less value, half the half-pay or allowance should be suspended—was the principle that ought to be adopted. If that were not done, and if the House did not take some opportunity of considering the whole subject, the six millions might be increased to a yet greater sum. He must say, that for this large expenditure the Government was not to blame; it had been forced on the Government. In times of ease and prosperity they all knew with what facility grants of money were made; and if they did not, when in difficulty, press for reduction and relief, it was not likely that any would be obtained. Looking at the whole question, he would beg his hon. friend to withdraw his Motion.
Mr. R. Gordon, in reply, did not think the right hon. Gentleman had answered his objections; and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last would move either for a Select Committee or a Committee of the whole House, to inquire into the subject. With an understanding that the subject would be taken up by his Majesty's Ministers, or by the right hon. Gentleman, he would consent to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. Secretary Peelprotested against its being understood that his Majesty's Government was pledged to a motion of which no notice had been given, and of which he did not yet know the terms. As an earnest of the intentions of his Majes-

21
ty's Government with respect to salaries, he would remind the House, that the Session before last, his right hon. friend, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) introduced a bill to regulate the retiring allowances of the civil servants of the Government, according to the recommendation of the Finance Committee. He did not propose to deprive any of the servants of the Government of their retired allowances, but he proposed to deduct a per centage from all salaries to form a Superannuation Fund. But how did the House meet the views of his right hon. friend? He was unable to pass the bill. He received no support. His right hon. friend had now the subject under his consideration, and would have no objection to revive the proposition of the Session before last.
Mr. Huskissonwished the hon. Member to understand that he had not pledged himself to move for any Committee, but only that he might possibly call the attention of the House to the subject, if no Member more competent to the task than himself should take it up. He thought the whole subject required revision, but he was of opinion that some better opportunity should be found than on that occasion, to go into the matter.
Mr. Secretary Peelinformed the House that the principle of the bill formerly introduced into the House had been applied to every person subsequently accepting office, and to all new offices. A deduction had been made from their salaries to form a fund for retiring allowances.
Lord Howickhoped his hon. friend would not withdraw his Motion, unless he received a distinct pledge from the Government that it would go into a general inquiry. He regretted that the hon. Member for Westminster, and the hon. Member for Kircudbright should encourage the Government in its extravagance. The Government was ready enough to attend to recommendations similar to those. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer had brought in the bill alluded to, he had not marshalled all his forces to pass it; and he had withdrawn it after a very feeble opposition from the hon. Gentleman, who was then on the Opposition side of the House, and was now Paymaster of the Army. Since then, the right hon. Gentleman had done nothing on the subject. He had allowed a whole Session to pass away, and had made no effort to get over his defeat. He hoped that his hon. friend
22
would not withdraw his Motion, unless a distinct pledge were given that an inquiry should be instituted into the Dead Weight. He would call on the right hon. Gentleman to say whether or not he would grant such an inquiry? If the right hon. Gentleman would consent, he would recommend the hon. Member to withdraw his Motion; if not, he recommended him to persevere.
Mr. Maberlydefended the Government. He was sure that it was ready to go fully into any such inquiry as that recommended. It was very seldom that he rose for such a purpose; but he was bound, in justice to the Government to declare, that he believed it was ready to go immediately into the investigation. He thought that the same principle that was applied to persons receiving half-pay ought to be applied universally, and that no person ought to be allowed to hold two offices, and receive two salaries.
Mr. Secretary Peelcould not suppose that the House would be so unjust as to require that the Ministers should pledge themselves to a Motion of which no notice had been given, and of which the terms were not known. Did the noble Lord wish to deprive officers of their half-pay? On Monday next his right hon. friend was to bring forward his view of the financial state of the country. The ordinary expenditure of the country was 11,000,000 l. and the Dead Weight and Pensions amounted to 6,000,000 l., and was it to be supposed that his right hon. friend would allow the 6,000,000 l. to escape his attention? In the absence of his right hon. friend, he could not be expected to pledge himself to any measure similar to that required by the noble Lord.
Lord Howickonly rose to guard himself against its being supposed that he wished to touch the half-pay of officers, or to deprive any person of the emoluments he then possessed; but he wanted a pledge that there should be no increase.
Sir H. Hardingeunderstood the hon. Member to accuse the Government of gross partiality, in continuing the allowances of general officers while subalterns were obliged to give up their half-pay on accepting office. But the House would remember that in 1815 it was recommended that the number of general officers should be diminished; and from 378, their number then, they had been gradually reduced to 120, by which a saving had

23
been effected of 33,000 l. This betrayed no partiality to the general officers.
On the Question being put on the original Motion,
Mr. Humesuggested, that it would be wise in the House to withhold the grant till after the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made his financial statement.
Mr. R. Gordonhad no desire to press the Motion if the right hon. Member for Liverpool would undertake the inquiry.
Mr. Huskissonwould only pledge himself to turn his attention to the subject in the course of the Session.
Lord Howickhoped the right hon. Gentleman would do so, as no person could accomplish the matter so well.
The Amendment, by the leave of the House, withdrawn.
The Report of the Committee of Supply was brought up. Several items were agreed to without opposition. On the Question that the House agree to the Resolution of the Committee for granting 32,000 l. for Exchequer Fees,
Mr. Humetook the opportunity of ob-serving, that the quarantine establishments were at present expensive; and to express his hope that, if any vacancies occurred in them, or in any other offices of the State, that they would not be filled up.
Mr. Herriesbelieved, that his right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not need the suggestion of the hon. Member to attend to the subject he had alluded to. It had engaged the serious and careful consideration of his Majesty's Ministers. As to the Treasury, he could say that it had, to the utmost of its power, carried into execution the recommendation of the Finance Committee, with regard to salaries and superannuations. The noble Lord (Lord Howick) had done his right hon. friend injustice by accusing him of lukewarmness in regard to the bill he had brought into the House the Session before last. He knew that his right hon. friend had made the greatest exertions to get that bill through the House, but he had not been supported, with the exception of the hon. Member for Montrose, even by the Members of the Finance Committee.
Resolution agreed to.
On the Question that the House agree to the Resolution of the Committee to grant 60,612 l. to his Majesty, to defray the expense of Volunteers,
Mr. Humeexpressed his surprise that this vote should be continued. If we were
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to have Volunteers they ought to be real Volunteers, who should pay for themselves. For his part, he thought the Government should have an opportunity to take the question into consideration, and time afforded them for carrying reductions into effect; and he would therefore move, as an Amendment, "that 30,306 l. be granted for a period of six months; that is, until the 30th of June of the present year."
On the Question being put,
Mr. Portmansaid, he would give the Motion his warmest support. He expressed a hope that on the eve of a Motion by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Horton) for taking into consideration the causes of the present extent of suffering among the poorer classes, the House would not allow this last proposition, for a just and wise reduction of the Estimates, to be frittered away like the former ones. He agreed most fully with the hon. Member, that the Volunteers should perform voluntary service; and that in times like the present, unless they could be supported without such an enormous expense, the country would be better without their services. He would therefore implore hon. Members to consider the necessity for economy; and he was confident there was not a man in the House, meaning honestly and sincerely to relieve the burthens of the people, who could refuse his vote to the Amendment now proposed.
Sir H. Hardingedid not mean again to trouble the House with any observations on this subject after the very protracted discussion, of more than two hours, which it had undergone on a former occasion. The Estimates, he repeated, were framed on as low a scale as they could be; and he put it to the courtesy of the hon. Member whether he would thus continue an opposition which so many majorities had already decided to be ill-founded.
The House then divided—For the original Resolution 104: For the Amendment 59:—Majority 45.
Original Resolutions agreed to.

List of the Minority.

Althorp, Lord

Burrell, W.

Baring, Sir T.

Burdett, Sir F.

Baring, A.

Burrell, C.

Baring, F.

Cave, O.

Baring, B.

Carter, J.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Carew, R.

Blake, Sir F.

Dundas, hon. T.

Bright, H.

Denison, J. E.

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Ebrington, Lord

Philips, Sir G.

Fazakerley, J. N.

Philips, G. R.

Fane, J.

Rice, T. S.

Fyler, T. B.

Russell, Lord J.

Hoye, J. B.

Robinson, G. R.

Jephson, C. D. O.

Rumbold, C. E.

Lennard, C. B.

Kickford, W.

Lamb, hon. J.

Sandon, Lord

Lott, H. B.

Smith, W.

Lester, B.

Smith, V.

Labouchere, H.

Sebright, Sir J.

Monck, J. B.

Thomson, C. P.

Marjoribanks, S.

Ward, J.

Macdonald, Sir J.

Warburton, H.

Martin, J.

White, Col.

Macqueen, T. P.

Wood, C.

Nugent, Lord

Wood, Alderma

O'Connell, D.

Whitmore, W. W.

Parnell, Sir H.

Wrottesley, Sir J.

Pendarvis, E. W.

Wilbraham, G.

Ponsonby, hon. F.

TELLERS.

Price, R.

Hume, J.

Palmer, C. F.

Portman, E. B.

DUTIES OF HIGH SHERIFF.
Mr. Fysche Palmer, pursuant to notice, rose, to move for a Committee to inquire into the nature of the Duties of High Sheriff, and entered into a detail of the various complicated subjects on which a High Sheriff was expected to be conversant, and of the number of Courts in which he was supposed to preside, if he fulfilled in person the duties of his office. Among these he enumerated the presiding in the County Courts, the protection of the public as conservator of the peace, his duties as Collector of the Crown Rents, and as the officer called on to execute all writs issued within the county. All these, and many other judicial and ministerial functions, were performed by a man who was compelled to discharge a large portion of the expenses out of his own pocket, and who was liable to be prosecuted for the failure or misconduct of his officers. Every expense of the Judges of Assize was paid by the Sheriff—the table of their attendants, the coals, the beer, the wine consumed at their place of residence—all was defrayed by the property of the High Sheriff, while he was, at the same time, compelled to bring a vast number of retainers to the court town, at his own entire cost, to be employed as javelin-men, and for other purposes. To so great an extent had this gone, that a law was passed in the 13th and 14th of Charles the Second by which it was enacted, that no Sheriff should be compelled to keep a table at the Assize town for any save the members of his own family, or the judges' servants; that he
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was not at any time to bring forth more than forty retainers; but for the sake of decency and a proper regard to the dignity of his station, he was not to appear with less than twenty in England or twelve in Wales, to be employed as javelin-men. He had procured a return of the amount of expenses incurred in one county, and he found that they amounted to about 1,300 l. while the whole of the receipts were only 600 l. so that the remaining 700 l. remained to be made good out of the pocket of the Sheriff. Looking at the extent of duty required from the High Sheriff, and the expenses to which he was subjected in the performance of these duties, he thought they were by much too numerous and too great to be demanded from any gentleman of ordinary fortune; and he, therefore, proposed to bring the subject under the consideration of a Select Committee, for the purpose of ascertaining to what extent the duties might be lightened and the expenses removed. He should, therefore, without troubling the House by going into any further details, move at once for a Select Committee to take into their consideration the Duties and Expenses attending the execution of the office of High Sheriff in England and Wales, with a view to devise some means to reduce or amend the same.
Mr. Hudson Gurneybegged the House to recollect that the office of High Sheriff was an ancient one, of very great importance, and always filled by gentlemen of rank, character, and fortune. In his opinion, if the House were to make those alterations and reformations which the hon. Member seemed to aim at in his speech, the result would be, that the office must fall into the hands of men in a lower and humbler rank of society than those who had hitherto filled it with so much advantage to the country. The Motion of the hon. Member seemed to go to the reformation of points so extremely frivolous, that it would be worse than idle to give it the support of the House.
Motion agreed to. Committee appointed.

STATE OF THE POOR.
Mr. W. Hortonthen rose to make his promised Motion for a Committee of the whole House to inquire into the State of the Poor in the United Kingdom. The hon. Member commenced by observing, that he preferred moving for a Committee of the whole House rather than a Select Committee, because he

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thought it would be more satisfactory to the sufferers to hear the course of the proceedings as they occurred, and the nature of the evidence offered in their favour, than if the subject were to be examined in the usual manner by a Committee especially appointed for the purpose. He thought it necessary to premise, in the outset, that he wished to confine his inquiries solely to the distress prevailing among those poorer classes whose labours were the most productive, and who received at present so small an extent of remuneration in proportion to the labour which they were called on to employ. After all the attention he had been able to give the subject, he was convinced that the distress of this class was to be found in the superabundance of the number who required employment in proportion to the demand for labour; and that the class most materially interested in the removal of this evil was that on which the maintenance of the labourers principally fell, he meant the landed interest of the country. When he heard so many discussions, night after night, on the subject of the reduction of general taxation, he confessed he was at a loss to understand why the House should allow the Poor-laws to escape consideration, and why it did not direct its attention, in settling the balance sheet, to the reduction of the seven or eight millions of taxation which pressed on the landed interest, through the poor-rates, just as ardently as the Members applied themselves to procure a relief from those other taxes which pressed on the industry of the country. In entering on an inquiry of this kind, it would be well worth while to look at the opinions entertained with respect to the distress of the labouring classes at different periods of our history. In the year 1796, Mr. Whitbread introduced a bill into the House for the purpose of regulating the Wages of Labourers in Husbandry.* This, be it recollected, was before the Bank of England was authorised to refuse payments in gold, and before any of those changes which were afterwards introduced into the monetary system had been carried into effect, and yet even then the people were, as now, suffering under that redundancy of labourers, which he maintained to be the great cause of the distress. Mr. Whitbread, in the discussion on the bill, used some language which was peculiarly remarkable with reference to this fact. He said, "In most parts of the country
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the labourer had long been struggling with increasing misery, till the pressure had become almost too grievous to be endured, while the patience of the sufferers under their accumulated distresses had been conspicuous and exemplary."† These were praises which, if applied to the manner in which the great body of the people bore their distresses and sufferings, could scarcely be too highly coloured. Ever since, the people had continued in the same state, and had borne their sufferings with equal patience. Mr. Whitbread observed on the same occasion, "That by the pressure of the times, marriage was discouraged; and among the labouring classes of the community, the birth of a child, instead of being hailed as a blessing, was considered as a curse." ‡ To remedy these evils Mr. Whitbread recommended a minimum of wages to be fixed; and he argued that the Act of Elizabeth had established a maximum of the price of labour, which was good against the labourer, but that it had established no minimum which would be good against the employer. Mr. Pitt, in the same debate, admitted, instead of denying the extent of the distress; but he argued against the fixing a minimum of wages, as contrary to all general principles, and concluded in these words:§—"What measure, then, could be found to supply the defect? Let us (said he) make relief, in cases where there are a number of children, a matter of right and an honour, instead of a ground for opprobrium and contempt." And Mr. Fox and Mr. Whitbread concluded by recommending the Government to provide a liberal premium for the encouragement of large families. If the principle that a surplus of labourers produced a redundancy of labour; and that the principle of demand and supply was applicable to that as well as to other commodities, had been then known and recognized, he believed these distinguished statesmen would have been induced to recant their errors. But the assertion of Mr. Pitt, with respect to labourers, was about as rational as if he had proposed to cure a glut of sugar by increasing the quantity in the market. After observing that Mr. Whitbread proposed two bills subsequent to the year 1807, when the book of Mr. Malthus appeared, and that they were not free from the errors of the
* Hansard's Parl. Hist. vol. xxxil,p. 700.
† ib.703 ‡ib. 704. § ib. 709.

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former, for one of the clauses proposed a premium to the father of a family of six children, the hon. Member proceeded to say, that Mr. Ricardo was the only person who seemed, on the discussion of those bills, which were afterwards lost in the Lords, to have any idea that a redundancy of population diminished the amount of wages, and that the bills were calculated to increase the evils they proposed to cure. When, therefore, they saw that, in the year 1796, the same complaints were made as at present, and that the poorer classes were suffering the same privations, he thought it must be admitted, that the evils did not flow altogether from an increase of taxation. In the work of a gentleman named Barton, with which he thought nearly all the Members of the House must be acquainted, and which contained more information than almost any other on these subjects, he found it observed, "that if it could be proved that in Switzerland and other countries the same distress was suffered as in this country; if the people of countries of the Continent, where there was no paper currency, and where there had always been a free importation of grain; if countries inhabited by a people poor and agricultural, were labouring under the same evils as a country rich, manufacturing and luxurious; did it not show that there existed some cause for that distress, common to all, and independent of those local circumstances to which it was generally attributed?" Now he would ask the House to say, whether that cause was not the redundancy of population, which rendered the wages of labour insufficient for the maintenance of the labourer? The laws of those countries involved principles much more severe than we dared to resort to in this country; principles, however, the result of which was to maintain the labouring classes in a state of comparative ease and independence; a state to which pauperism was almost, if not altogether, unknown. With respect to the bills which at various periods had been introduced into that House, for the purpose of establishing a better system of regulations for the poor, they had all failed; they had all been abandoned by their original promoters; and no material alteration had taken place on the subject. The bill which was introduced in 1822 by Mr. Nolan, in a very able and argumentative speech,* was more analogous
* Hansard's Parl. Deb. vol. vii. n. s. p. 1560
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to the principles maintained by him (Mr. Horton) than any of the measures which had been proposed with similar views; but still it did not suggest any practical remedy for the existing evil which appeared to him to be of sufficient efficacy. After all the attention that he had bestowed upon this subject, and he could assure the House that he had bestowed upon it the most anxious attention; he would suggest to any one who should in future wish to undertake an amelioration of our present condition with respect to the poor, the advantage that would be derived from considering them under four separate heads. First—the poor who had real employment, and who maintained themselves by the actual wages of their labour; such persons were free from pauperism; privations they certainly suffered as compared with other parts of the community: but for that there was no remedy. The next class was the helpless poor; who, however they might wish to labour, were destitute of the power to do so, either from too great age, or too great youth, or sickness, or accident; and who must be supported by charity, whether that charity was compulsory, and prescribed by law, or whether it flowed spontaneously from the benevolence of individuals. The third class consisted of those whom he was desirous especially to distinguish by the appellation of "the pauper class;" being able-bodied men, willing to work, but who could not get employment, and who, if not assisted by others, must perish. That was the class which now demanded the most serious attention of the legislature, in order to endeavour to discover the best means of disposing of it. The last class was beggars; persons who preferred living on charity to supporting themselves by honest industry, and who, while they could find any individuals in the country prepared to relieve their necessities, would look to no other means of subsistence. Every one conversant with the laws of production knew that no capitalist would go on producing any article unless he could obtain a remunerating price for it. But the labourer had no choice. He must continue to offer his labour, not while he could obtain a remunerating price for it, but while he could prevail upon any one to employ him at whatever price. In the large classes supported by charity must be comprehended those who received money for anything but for their labour.

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If, therefore, a man received money from the parish to make good the deficiency of his wages, the mere fact of his receiving wages did not take him out of the pauper class. Such a practice, however, was productive of the greatest evils. It operated specifically against the interest of the strongest and the best labourer; for it brought society into competition against him; diminished the average price of labour; and, finally, reduced him to a state of poverty to which all hope was denied. On these grounds it was, that he highly approved of the bill which an hon. friend of his had introduced, for preventing any part of the wages of labourers from being paid out of the poor-rates; or, in other words, to prevent the private employers of labour from being assisted out of any corporate funds. One modification, however, he wished to see of his hon. friend's bill, namely, that in the case of any labourer having a large family, which he was incapable of supporting on his wages, if those wages were such as would be sufficient for the support of an unmarried and unencumbered labourer, that then the parish should pay to the married labourer the balance necessary for the maintenance of his family. Without entering into the consideration of the mode of levying the poor-rates, the first suggestion which he would take the liberty of throwing out upon the subject was, that in the accounts of every parish the sums paid to the helpless poor should be kept separate from the sums paid to the third class which he had described, or the pauper poor. By such a regulation, they would obtain an account of the redundant labouring population. His next suggestion would be, to empower parishes to employ the able-bodied poor in concentrated labour, instead of employing them in their separate parishes. It appeared to him that in many instances, labour, which afforded no return when employed in separate parishes, would be productive, if the labour of several parishes were concentrated. Another suggestion would be, to frame some regulations for restricting the erection of cottages in parishes where it was shown that a great redundancy of labour existed. A check of this description would be most advantageous. He was also decidedly of opinion, that to give the able-bodied poor, the natural labourers of the country, a small quantity of ground for their own cultiva-
32
tion, would be attended with highly beneficial consequences. In support of his principle of the existence of a large redundance of the labouring population, he would refer to a petition from one of the hundreds of the county of Bedford, presented to the House towards the close of the last Session of Parliament. In that petition it was stated that 4,000 l. was paid yearly by that hundred for labour, for which there was no return; and that the system was productive of serious crime and of every variety of shade of moral turpitude; and presented a picture of pauperism of the most deplorable character. The petition proceeded to state what proportion of the able-bodied labourers of the hundred would be sufficient to perform all the ordinary and habitual labour of the hundred. The number of able-bodied labourers in the parish was 2,177. After making every due allowance for harvests and other casual demands, it appeared that 1,496 would be sufficient to perform the work of the hundred; and, consequently, that in the hundred in question, containing thirteen parishes, 681 able-bodied labourers might be advantageously spared. He was persuaded that if by the means which he had recommended an account of the redundant labour-population of the country were to be forthcoming, it would create much astonishment. He by no means meant to say that much of this redundant labour might not, at a future period, be again absorbed; but he contended, that while it continued to press upon the food of productive labour, it occasioned the most serious evils. He had, as might easily be supposed, received numerous letters and other communications, anonymous and otherwise, on the subject to which he had paid so much attion; and among them one from an enlightened individual, a man of the highest possible character, who, speaking of his own neighbourhood, stated that a strong desire for emigration prevailed, that the labouring population were sinking with an accelerating velocity into the jaws of pauperism, and that the funds of the parish were insufficient to remedy the evil; or, to use his own forcible expression, "to relieve the wretchedness of the labouring population, breeding and starving in a paroxysm of hopelessness and fatuity." The state of Ireland afforded a sufficient proof of the evils which resulted to the labouring classes from the absence of all

33
check on the increase of population. The existence of a state in the most wretched pauperism was not in itself a check on that increase. This was clearly established in Mr. Barton's letter, to which he had already referred. Mr. Hodges, a gentleman from Kent, who gave evidence before the Emigration Committee, said that in proportion as the labouring population became more miserably poor, they became more reckless, and married at an early age, without the slightest regard to any consequences. This was a fact established by experience, and by communications from other quarters. He was one of those who thought that if the poor-laws were properly regulated, they would be very beneficial. He conceived that the existence of judicious poor-laws indicated a high state of civilization in any country. But of this he was certain, that a country in which there was a free circulation of labour, as well as of other commodities, must be everywhere under the same law respecting the poor. If twenty counties were without a poor-law, and twenty counties were with one, that would be productive of great evil. For his part, he could see no reason why, now that our union with Ireland was cemented, the interposition of the ocean should prevent Ireland from having the same poor-law as England. But he should be very sorry to see the poor-laws inflicted on Ireland, unless she possessed the means of getting rid of her redundant labouring population. The object of the legislature ought to be to distinguish between that class of the population which lived upon the produce of the labour provided by private employers, and that class which lived upon other sources. If the House wanted to introduce a prudent and effective check to increasing population, it must make a substantive distinction between the two classes which he had described. The labouring classes must be taught to feel the disgrace of pauperism, and they would then anxiously avoid it. At present no such anxiety existed. Until it revived, every effort would be hopeless. It was impossible to consider the situation of the poor in this country, without adverting to the effect produced by the influx of the Irish poor. He by no means intended to say that the Irish poor ought not to be allowed to come over to this country. But the potatoe of Ireland was one of the substantial causes of the increase of popu-
34
lation in that country. This potatoe-fed population came over to this country to enter into competition with our labouring poor, because there was no law in Ireland calling on the rich, under any circumstances, to provide for the poor. So little were the poor of Ireland relieved by the rich of Ireland, that whenever there was a failure in the potatoe-crop of Ireland, exposing the poor of that country to starvation, English benevolence always extended its assistance to them. Thus, however, a bonus was given to the increase of distress in both countries. All he asked was the extension to Ireland of the laws on the subject which were established in Great Britain; and then the potatoe-fed population of Ireland would prove beneficial to the empire. He wished he could see an attempt made to separate the pauper population from the labouring-population of Ireland. The Report of the Committee of 1825, to inquire into the state of the Irish poor, stated that, of the former class, no fewer than a million were strolling over the country. It would be a most beneficial policy to introduce into Ireland a National Mendicity Association. The reports of such an Association would distinctly exhibit the amount of the redundant population of Ireland. Until that was ascertained, all legislative proceedings respecting the poor would be premature. If it should be afterwards found, on experiment, that the redundant population might be advantageously employed at home, after the example of the Dutch, let that be tried. If, on the other hand, it should appear that the advantage of the community would be more promoted by national colonization, some plan for carrying that colonization into beneficial effect should be devised. All he contended for was, that something must be done to put an end to a system which, if not checked, would multiply misery to an. indefinite extent. Until, however, the day arrived when the labouring classes of the community should be convinced of the truth of what he had stated, and that the misery of their present situation, proceeding from redundancy, could be remedied only by removal, he was convinced that the Representative Body could never take any salutary step. He therefore called on the intelligent part of that class of the community, on the labourers and mechanics who had received the benefits of education, and who were competent to the

35
consideration, to investigate the subject, and to determine if there was not truth in his statement, that where the numbers of the population were redundant, no legislative measure, no remission of taxes, or any other proceeding, could effectually put down pauperism. In 1826, a small experiment had been tried at Manchester. In the year 1825, the population of that town, 200,000 in number, was in a state of the greatest possible distress. The richer inhabitants determined to give work to all, at low wages. He had been told by an intelligent individual, that many persons supposed that there was a redundant population, others that there was no redundant population, but nothing certain was established on that point. The people were put to work, however; they were taken back into the general demand as they were required, and at no very distant period they were all absorbed. No one could deny that there was a great difference between the condition of the agricultural and the condition of the manufacturing population. The fact was, that whereas the demand for manual labour required in agriculture diminished, the demand for manual labour required in manufactures increased. In agriculture the improved processes had occasioned a greater produce, with less manual labour; but in manufactures the improvement of machinery, were it not for the introduction of Irish labourers, would have greatly increased the demand for, and bettered the condition of, the workmen. For the last thirty years, however, the latter had been kept down by the influx from Ireland. He could not avoid saying a few words on the subject of the currency. Many hon. Gentlemen appeared to be of opinion that a change—a depreciation—in our currency would operate to remove the national distress. Never, in the history of mankind, however, had the depreciation of the value of the money of any country produced any thing but misery to the labouring classes. This was undeniably true; and ought to enter into all the considerations of the legislature, when we were contemplating measures for the relief of those classes. The people at large ought to know that if, by a change of the standard, or by the introduction of paper, money were depreciated five-and-twenty per cent, the consequence would be, that every shilling received by a labourer or an artizan would be practically reduced in
36
value to ninepence. It was true that time would afford a slow remedy for this evil, and that wages would gradually increase in the proportion of from one shilling to one shilling and threepence; but it would be then, and then only, that the situation of the labourer or of the artizan would be upon a par with his situation before the depreciation of the currency. When, therefore, he heard a depreciation of the currency described as a means of relief for the labouring classes, he only wished that those who so described it would consider the subject a little, and they would perceive that the sole tendency of such a depreciation would be, to benefit the debtor at the expense of the unfortunate creditor. He protested, therefore, against such a proposition; which, instead of relieving, would only add to the distresses of the labouring classes, and would not add a single grain of value to the wealth of the country. As to the changes which had already taken place in the currency, he did not pretend to say that the landed interest had not been affected by them. But if those changes were now to be renewed, and all the evils attendant on the alteration of the real terms of contracts were again to be produced, and that not only without benefitting, but very much to the injury of the labouring classes of the community, such a proceeding would experience his entire condemnation. Nor could the labouring classes derive the slightest relief from any such remission of taxation as would render it impracticable to keep up the necessary establishments of the country, and at the same time preserve faith with the public creditor. He should grossly deceive the people were he to tell them that they must look for relief to such a remission of taxation. There was another sound principle which he wished to inculcate on this subject. It was impossible that any remission of taxes could materially affect the situation of the paupers. Those who had to dispense charity might certainly, by a remission of taxes, have their means of doing so increased; but those who were to be maintained out of that charity—in other words, the redundant labouring population—must be benefitted in a very small degree by the remission of taxation, since it would not increase the amount of employment. He alluded especially to this part of the subject, because it had been said that the remission of the

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Malt and Beer Tax would do the pauper population good. It was impossible to do that portion of our population good while it remained in a state of pauperism, because its existence involved a constant competition among the labouring population. The remission of taxation could not reach those who were in a state of actual pauperism, and a large class, both in this country and in Ireland, were approximating to that class. All he was anxious for was, to excite attention to the state of pauperism. If any doubt remained on the minds of hon. Members of the soundness of the doctrines which he had laid down, inquiry would convince them that that doubt was unfounded. If he were successful in his Motion, and were allowed to bring the subject before a committee, the propositions which he should be prepared to maintain, and which he would endeavour to prove, would be as follow:—
"1. That the sums raised and applied for the relief of the poor in England and Wales, though mainly bearing on one particular class of the community—viz. the landed interest—ought to be considered, after the deduction of that portion which would otherwise be paid as wages, as much in the nature of a tax as any of those taxes which are to be found in the balance-sheet of the Revenue and expenditure of the country.
"2. That if a pauper population, for whose labour there is no real demand, can be prosperously colonized (with their own consent) at a less expense than would be necessary to be incurred for their maintenance in the mother country, a national outlay for the purpose of such colonization ought to be considered as an economy rather than as an expense.
"3. That if a redundant population were removed by a national effort of colonization, there would be but little danger to be apprehended from what is called 'the filling-up of the vacuum.'
"4. That if the United Kingdom were relieved from its redundant labourers—that is, those labourers for whose labour no real and natural demand exists in society; the remaining labourers might permanently remain in a state of comparative comfort and independence.
"5. That it is expedient to effect such reparation and abstraction of forced from unforced labour as would accurately measure the extent of the redundancy.
"6. That to enable parishes to raise money upon mortgage of their poor-rates for a period of years; such capital being specifically applied towards the emigration of voluntary candidates who may prefer independence in the colonies to pauperism at home; would be a measure highly favourable to the landed interest.
"7. That in the event of home colonization, the ratio of danger as to the filling-up of the
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vacuum must be double as compared with foreign colonization.
"8. That if the vacuum were to be filled up, the policy of a measure of colonization must be governed by a comparison of the increment of the expense of maintaining the new pauper population, with the decrement of the expense of maintaining the removed population, supposing them to have remained at home.
"9. That there are no means of producing wealth more effective than the combination of an able-bodied population, with uncultivated land of the first degree of fertility.
"10. That, independently of the special advantage to the landed interest, and to the labouring classes, the expenditure involved in such a measure of colonization would not be, in any degree, prejudicial to other classes possessing property in society.
"11. That, as a pauper, while he continues a pauper, receives necessarily only a bare subsistence, he can neither suffer from taxation, nor be relieved by its remission.
"12. That the application of any portion of surplus revenue for the purpose of raising a capital to be applied in the first instance in the home employment, and secondly, in the colonization of the poor, would be more beneficial to the labouring classes of the community, than if the same sum were applied in the reduction of public debt, or in the remission of any class of taxes to the same amount."
An examination would enable him to convince the House that what he had stated was the fact; and then only, when the House were really disposed to make the experiment, would it be able to afford substantial relief to the labouring and suffering classes of the country. He begged to offer the House his best thanks for the attention with which they had heard him, and he would now no further trouble them than by quoting an aphorism of Lord Bacon, who was the enemy of colonization in general, but whom he considered the best defender of the principle which he had endeavoured to recommend to the House. Lord Bacon had said, "Things will alter for the worse spontaneously, if they are not remedied decidedly; and then who can say what will be the end of the evil?" In the same manner he would say, that if things were not altered speedily and decidedly, they would go on getting worse spontaneously, and there would be no end of the evil. The population would be unemployed, distress would increase; and if a year passed on without Members being convinced of the truth of what he had said, the period would arrive when they would see there was no other measure but a well-

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planned system of emigration, which could reach the intensity of the evil, and then they would feel the mortification of disappointment, until opinion universally pointed to the true remedy; to that which he had endeavoured, though imperfectly, to describe. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving "that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House to consider of the State of the Poor of the United Kingdom."
Mr. Portman, in seconding the Motion of his right honourable friend, said, that he considered some plan of this kind of the utmost importance to the labouring classes of the country. He was convinced that the redundancy of the labouring population was the great cause of their distress. That fact was shown in the state of the county of Dorset. In the short time he was in that county during the Easter recess, no less than 370 persons applied to him to procure them the means of going out with their families to the Swan River, for they were all without the means of procuring a passage. The right hon. Gentleman had made four divisions of the poorer classes of this country. He thought he could make two divisions that would be as nearly accurate as those of the right hon. Gentleman. He should, he said, divide them into poor and paupers. Of the whole of this country the portion north of Warwick, or, perhaps, north of the Thames, might be stated to be that in which the majority of the people were poor; while in that portion of the kingdom south of Warwick, or south of the Thames, the majority of the people were paupers. These latter might he sub-divided also into two classes; those who were paupers in consequence of age or infirmity, and those who were reduced to that situation from the want of sufficient wages to maintain their families. Those who were reduced to pauperism by age or infirmity were supported by poor-laws, and with respect to them no alteration was required; but for those who sunk into pauperism either from the want of work, or from want of sufficient wages, it was necessary that something should be done. The House ought not to interfere with the wages of labour. Mr. Burke had truly said, that to attempt to establish a maximum or minimum of wages was mischievous in the extreme; for labour was a commodity, and every interference with the laws of trade for such a purpose must
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be injurious. The profits of labour, not the subsistence of the labourer, was the object kept in view by the capitalist, and the labouring classes were, therefore, only fully employed when their employment would afford a profit to the men who engaged them. His right hon. friend seemed to think that a diminution of taxes would not produce any very favourable effect. On that point he differed from him; because he thought that a reduction of taxation would put money into the pocket of the agriculturalist, which would enable him to take some additional pauper labourers out of the market. Unfortunately, in such a population as ours, every married man was an evil, for the market for labour was regulated by the bachelors, and the married men must descend to their terms, for the bachelor could not rise to that of the married man. The evils of tampering with this subject arose from the endeavour to legislate for each parish, and he thought there ought to be one general measure, declaring that in each parish the will of the majority of ratepayers, assembled in vestry, should bind the minority. The laws of settlement which erected a wall round every parish, and converted it into a prison for the labourer ought to be altered, and then only would the labourer have the means of carrying his labour to a free market. He recommended that a small portion of land should be given to each pauper, and he was convinced that the poor-rates would then be materially diminished. One great means of alleviating the wants of the poor man would be, to allow him to have a small portion of land to cultivate. Encouragement of that kind would prevent him from falling into the condition of a pauper. He believed that the multiplication of very large farms, which prevented the poor man from getting a small quantity of land to cultivate, had been attended with very injurious effects. As the law of settlement now stood, the poor man could not procure land; because, if he rented land to the amount of 10 l. a-year, it gave him a right of settlement in the parish, a circumstance which induced the landholder not to let his ground. The consequence of this, and of what he might call the destructive monopoly of the land, combined with the poverty of the people, were most afflicting. It happened to him lately to be present at a Quarter Sessions, where a person was indicted for stealing

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haulm or bean-stalk, to place under his father's feet. Another was tried for stealing a truss of straw to make a bed. In the former instance the jury refused to convict, because they said the practice of taking haulm for such a purpose, and to make litter for pigs, was universal in the county. In the second case, they did convict, but the man was strongly recommended to mercy, on the ground that it was also customary for the people to steal straw to make beds. If men were allowed a small piece of land, they could themselves cultivate it, and they would then obtain litter for their cattle, and beds for themselves, which they were now unable to buy, and which it seemed they were compelled to steal. He knew, however, that what he now proposed could not be adopted without a change in the law of settlement. He hoped, that should the committee be appointed, the currency question would be kept out of view, for it would only excite a difference of opinion, and detain the House from matter that was much more important.
Mr. J. Smithsupported the plan of giving each pauper a small portion of land. He had done so three years ago, to a certain extent, in the eastern division of Sussex, and the result had been most satisfactory. He had allotted to a number of poor persons rather more than one acre each, and not only were they kept from demanding parish assistance, but, beyond his utmost expectations, the result had been most beneficial to himself. A Quaker gentleman, of the name of Allen, who also had property there, adopted the same plan; and he could assure the House that every one of those individuals who took these small portions of land paid their rent regularly; and they procured by their labour on the soil from 3s. to 5s. 6d. a-week. The consequence was, that they did not receive any parochial aid, and the poor-rates in the parish had been reduced nearly one-half. If, instead of this, individuals were compelled, as they were in many parts of England, to work on the roads at 6d. and 8d. a day, and to sleep in barns and out-houses, there could be no wonder that they forgot their duty to society, and that when temptation came in their way, they fell into the commission of crime. He implored the attention of the House to this subject.
Mr. Benettcould not agree with the right hon. Gentleman as to many of the
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principles he had stated. Among the rest he could not possibly concur with what the right hon. Gentleman had said respecting the currency. He did not wish to introduce that question unnecessarily into this discussion, but he must make one observation upon what the right hon. Gentleman had said. He was not friendly to a depreciated currency; but he could not help thinking that the adoption of the present currency had taken from a number of persons connected with the productive classes of society the same means of employing the labour of men that they before possessed. He thought, therefore, that a limited return to our former currency would provide a greater means of employment, and consequently a greater demand for labour. He must confess that he was quite astonished when he heard the right hon. Gentleman say that the reduction of taxation could have no effect on the labouring poor. Why the reduction of taxation would afford increased means of consumption to the higher and middle classes, and consequently increased opportunity of employment to the labouring-poor. Without a large reduction of taxation, he was convinced that emigration would afford but very little relief; for though many might be removed, numbers would soon spring up to fill up their vacant places in the class to which they had belonged. In a parish near him, a clergyman had nearly done away with the poor-rates, by apportioning the glebe land for the poor to cultivate. This could not be done to a sufficient extent to relieve the whole country, but relief might be effected by a return to the former currency, united with a diminution of all the taxes that pressed upon country labour.
Mr. Courtenaythought it would be extremely unadvisable to go into a committee, which would only occupy time without the least expectation of coming to any practical result. He had still higher ground on which to object to a committee. It would be an abuse to the country to appoint a committee to take into consideration the state of the labouring poor, unless the House felt confident that that committee would be able to devise something which would administer to the suffering classes extensive relief. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that there had been a great redundance of the labouring poor, but he could not bring himself to believe that that redundance

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had been caused by the poor-rates. He had reflected much on this subject, and he was satisfied, that all the House could do would be to amend the poor-laws; and if that were not sufficient, then to have recourse to emigration. But to attain neither of these objects did a committee appear to him to be the most desirable mode of proceeding. The right hon. Gentleman approved of the bill introduced by the hon. Member, for Shrewsbury, and had proposed amendments to it, a course which he thought more likely to promote the object the right hon. Gentleman had in view than that which he now wished the House to adopt. The right hon. Gentleman had said, that of many select committees not one had produced any good; but he must remind him of one exception; for one committee had produced a bill which had certainly checked the progress of the poor-rates. The evil of the poor-rates had not increased in any thing like the proportion that had been expected twelve or thirteen years ago. There was not a single term used by the right hon. Gentleman, respecting the impossibility of the country continuing to so on as it had done, which had not been used and applied over and over again in the same manner during a century and a half. The right hon. Gentleman wished to know how much of the poor-rates were paid to those who were willing to labour, but could not get work, and he had recommended a classification of paupers, but neither of these objects were proper to be debated in a committee. If a committee upon the subject were to consist of thirty-five Members, he was sure there would be thirty-four plans and a half started, each of which would require to be debated. The letting of lands to labourers would be facilitated by the bill then in the House, which gave a power to parishes to let out land for the employment of the poor. He could only say, that whatever improved the prosperity of the country must improve the condition of the people; but it would be impossible to get rid of the poor altogether, unless they could have a constant progressive prosperity without any check, and keeping pace with the increase of the population. The right hon. Gentleman's Resolutions were a sort of reasoning pamphlet, and he could not expect any committee to agree to his Resolutions; they would cause an endless discussion. He would recommend
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the right hon. Gentleman to abandon his measure, and proceed with his bill for emigration.
Mr. Slaneywillingly acknowledged the services rendered by the right hon. Gentleman in bringing the subject before the country, for there never was a period which mere imperatively called upon the House, as a matter of policy and duty, to consider the question of population in relation to the means of employment. There had now been a period of fifteen years of peace; and instead of having improved the condition of the labouring classes of the community, the peasantry of the southern counties of England had decidedly deteriorated. Mansions had been built, and riches spread throughout the land; the higher classes possessed enjoyments which they had not possessed before, and the middle classes had enjoyments which their forefathers had not; but the working classes, by whose labour they attained their enjoyments, instead of advancing with the progress of civilization, had fallen back. No man who looked to the consequences could contemplate the effects of this continual deterioration without alarm. Was not this a case to call on Government, and upon that House, calmly and sedulously, but firmly and steadily, to look at once at the nature and extent of the evil, and at its probable consequences. The great body of the working classes might be divided into two sets perfectly distinct—he meant the agricultural and manufacturing population; but of the latter it was not his intention to say a single word. With reference to the peasantry, they might be divided likewise into two classes, perfectly and clearly distinct from each other. An hon. Member had spoken of the redundancy of the population, which certainly might exist in the south of England, but it could not be said to exist in the northern counties. The greatest distinction existed between the southern and northern parts of the kingdom, as much, indeed, as between the people of any two distinct kingdoms; and it was for the House to trace the causes of the difference. In twenty counties of the north the poor were well off, with plenty of work and good pay for their labour, and the parish rates were lower than in the South; whilst in the South there was an immense body of the poor depressed and degraded, as compared with their brethren of the north. The

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poor rates in the county of Sussex were as high as 7s. in the pound, whilst in the north they did not exceed 1s. 6d. In the north the poor-laws had been kept to their original intention, whilst in Sussex they had been wrested completely from their purpose. In the north only one person in forty applied for relief out of the rates, whilst in Sussex the proportion was as one to three. In 1793, the price of food to the poor man was proportionate to his wages, but now things were regulated by a new principle. In the interim, the prices of wages and food had oscillated; wheat in one year had varied from 60 s. to 150 s. the quarter. It had been utterly-impossible in those years for the labouring man to support himself, and in the north the temporary expedient of subscriptions had been resorted to; whilst in the south the expedient had been adopted of paying the wages of labour partially out of the poor-rates; and of all schemes ever invented, never had there been one more detrimental. A scale of these drafts from the poor-rates had been fixed according to the prices of breach. This had commenced in Sussex. Was not Government bound to consider the effects of this system? A few years ago the proportion of paupers in this kingdom had been as one in twelve; soon after as one in nine; soon after as one in seven; and now he believed it to be as one in six. He could refer to documents to prove that throughout this kingdom one person in six received aid from the parish. The period which had produced this was that of the oscillations; but now that the cause had passed away, why not revert to the old practice? In the northern counties the poor labourer received twelve shillings a-week, whilst in the south he received five or six; and yet it was infinitely cheaper to pay a man good wages, and stimulate him to use all his energies and exertions; for when the peasantry were degraded they were lost to the country and to themselves. It was both the policy and duty of the landlord to elevate the humbler classes. The Report of the Committee of 1815 had stated in the most plain manner what had been the cause of the abuse of the poor-laws in the South of England. Five different committees had agreed in the same opinions, and they had recommended the same remedies; namely, to go back gradually and cautiously to the system of the poor-laws which had existed before
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the abuses had been introduced. They had the experience of various parishes, which had returned to those laws with the happiest effect. The success had been uniform, and where wages had increased pauperism had diminished. It was in consequence of the abuses of the poor-laws that the redundancy of the population existed in the South of England; but all remedies were useless that did not tend to restore the proportion between employment and capital. All that was necessary, however, was to take away the existing stimulants to population, and to leave the natural laws which regulated population to their own operation. The poor would be then more industrious and cautious, and take better care of themselves. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) was not insensible to the sufferings of the multitude; and he saw the necessity of assisting the classes that were distressed and degraded. It was evident, indeed, that unless something were done, the country would go on from worse to worse. Turn which way they would, from, the House in which they then were—go into whatever county or place they would round the metropolis, it would be found that one person in every five or six was a pauper. The noble palaces—the splendid mansions that surrounded them—stood upon an insecure foundation and a tottering base as long as the labourers were miserable. He believed there was only one feeling in that House upon the subject, and that was, to improve, by every possible means, the condition of the poor. That was now fortunately acknowledged to be the only way to spread happiness, and to diminish that frightful catalogue of crimes which had increased of late years, and which was the necessary consequence of the destitute and degraded condition of the lower orders.
Mr. E. Davenportdenied that there was an overpopulation in the country; and he thought it would require great abilities to show that a country, capable of producing subsistence for all its inhabitants, and even capable of producing double what it now produced (were agriculture but improved), could be overpeopled by its present population. The chain which had connected capital and labour had been dissolved; but no person had a right to arraign the wisdom of Providence, until he had found out that he could entirely exculpate the folly of man. Providence

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might have made man with less of folly, which would have dissolved the argument. He would only say a word as to the proposed remedy by exporting part of the population. When the numbers had been thus thinned in Ireland, for instance, what security was there that the vacuum would not be soon supplied? and certainly there was no country of the world that had a better reputation than Ireland for multiplying the species with rapidity.
Sir F. Burdettsaid, if the right hon. Mover had not yet made much way in his project, he had at least succeeded to the extent of persuading the House that the subject was worth consideration. Nevertheless, he could not yet encourage him with the expectation of a beneficial or speedy result. He wished, on that occasion, particularly to avoid inquiring how far the alterations in the currency might have occasioned the redundant population; and he should, therefore, only say, generally, that on this point he was inclined to agree with his right hon. friend. As to filling the vacuum to be occasioned by emigration, it seemed to him that nothing was more easy than to prevent a rapid increase, when once the numbers were thinned. In the same way, it was easy at any time to stimulate population, but not so easy to revocare gradum, and to lessen it after it had been so stimulated. There was the difficulty; and hence arose the question, what was to be done with the present superabundant population? The existence of that superabundance must, for a time, produce great suffering and misery; and whether it were or were not the fault of the legislature, there the people were, and the country was bound to provide for them, and could not allow them to starve. The great feature of the subject was Ireland—get rid of what he might call the annual Irish invasion—of the competition of the Irish peasantry with the labourers of England—and the latter would be left in comparatively easy and comfortable circumstances. The Irish were an honest and an industrious people, and they had a full right to bring their labour to the best market. While the Irish peasant could obtain more for his labour here than in his own country, he must and would come; and the necessary consequence was, that the English peasant was reduced very nearly to the same condition as the Irish peasant. Thus in truth, and in fact, the English country
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gentleman had his estates burthened to provide for the poor of Ireland. In Berkshire, the mere passing of the Irish poor in a single year had cost from 1,200 l. to 1,400 l. The question was, could any effectual remedy be found for this great evil? He was sorry his right hon. friend had involved himself in such a complication of Resolutions, containing many positions upon which no two men perhaps could be found to agree: the more his right hon. friend had advanced into his subject, the more comprehensive his views seemed to be; and it would have been far better if he had limited himself to his original general and simple proposition—that it was expedient to send part of the redundant population to the colonies. As the Motion now stood, it could lead to no beneficial practical result—whereas, if his right hon. friend had brought in a bill to carry his intentions into effect, a substantive proposition would have been made, upon which the legislature would have been called upon to decide. At present the estates of Irish gentlemen were hot-beds of population, and this was an evil that loudly called for remedy. In order that England might continue the sphere of laudable enterprise, he wished to get rid of those who were merely burthensome; they might be removed with advantage to all parties to some of our magnificent colonies, the chief difficulty being to determine, of the good, which were the best. The exportation of a comparatively small number would have a great effect upon those who were left behind; as a small overplus of any commodity depreciated it greatly, so a small overplus of population caused an accumulation of misery. The subject of relief could be no topic of dispute—all were anxious to accomplish one end; amicable discussion might lead to the most beneficial results, and Ministers would, he was sure, be grateful for any useful suggestions. He would confine the view of the House simply to the point, whether it were not possible to remove to the colonies a large portion of the population of Ireland, and of Ireland alone? In that country there were no poor-rates; and as the present management of Irish estates produced the evil, a rate, not in the nature of a poor-rate, might perhaps be levied upon them, to aid in the accomplishment of the object. He could not agree with his hon. friend (Mr. J. Smith), that to give every poor man an acre of

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ground would remedy the evil. First, how would it be possible to give every poor man an acre of ground? and secondly, if it were given, was not that the very system that had prevailed in Ireland, and which had occasioned the redundant population? What had happened in Ireland would then happen in England; and the mischief, instead of being amended, would be increased. There were two ways by which the lower orders might be benefitted. 1st. By giving them higher wages; 2nd. by reducing their numbers—though the second was, in fact, only another mode of accomplishing the first. Then as to the introduction of machinery, it was undoubtedly true, that it might, for a time, throw hands out of employ, but in the end the increase of the branch of trade in which machinery was used would require the active exertions of many more men than had in the outset been temporarily injured. When he talked of a rate for Ireland, he was ready to admit that the subject deserved grave consideration: colonization must be attended with a heavy expense; but the present state of the poor also caused an enormous expense, and the expense of emigration would not be great if those parishes that were relieved contributed their due share towards the attainment of relief. From the effect of those contributions the parties would soon recover when once the superabundant population was removed. He hoped that his right hon. friend would not press his Motion to a division, because it would lead to no beneficial practical result.
Sir G. Murraysaid, he should only offer a few observations, in consequence chiefly of what had fallen from the hon. Baronet, to whom he had listened now, as always, with great satisfaction. He concurred entirely with what his right hon. friend (Mr. W. Horton) had said on the subject of emigration to the colonies: that opinion was not new to him, for he had entertained it when he was in the Canadas, and he had stated it in a paper he then drew up, on a means of forming a better defence for those provinces. He thought now, as he had thought then, that the only certain and permanent means of providing for the defence of the Canadas was by directing to them a stream of population from the mother country, attached to her interests, and resolved to maintain her possessions. The difficulty of holding out Much, encouragement on the subject of
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emigration arose from the strong prevailing disposition in favour of it. If much encouragement were given, that disposition would be increased to a dangerous, or at least to an injurious extent. With a view practically to promote this benefit, he had turned his mind with great attention to the question, and the mode in which he thought the object might be obtained was this:—First, by establishing in the colonies themselves a well-considered system, with reference to the grant of land, and then by degrees, when that system was brought to maturity, to establish in some of our ports, agents to whom persons desirous of sending out emigrants might address themselves, in order to facilitate or provide passages, and to make those arrangements in detail which landed proprietors, societies, or parishes, would find it difficult to make themselves. But in considering this plan, it had always appeared to him impracticable for the country to go to any great expense in order to convey emigrants, to our North American Colonies, for instance. Therefore, in order to give a commencement to the plan, when applied to, he had held out that, on the arrival of the emigrants in the provinces, they would receive land free from any expense but the usual fees on making the grant. The outline of the plan was this:—That those who came out with money ready to make purchases of land, should be provided with it; that those who on coming out required no assistance, but, at the same time, were not able to pay for the land, should have it on discharging the ordinary fees for the survey, &c.; a third class were those who came out and required aid; besides having their land free of any expense, it was doubtful whether it might not be fit to give them assistance in the first instance in the erection of log-houses. Whatever was done, caution was necessary, or such a tide of population might be poured into the provinces as would overflow the country, and be attended with great inconvenience. He stated these views to show that he had not neglected the important subject, and he would only add one word as to the invasion from Ireland of which the hon. Baronet had spoken: that was, that in his opinion, the most certain, and he might say, the most legitimate mode, of getting rid of that evil was, by promoting the prosperity of Ireland. He would conclude by merely adverting to what he had already

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done to carry into effect a plan of emigration. The Duke of Hamilton had applied to him on behalf of some persons who wished to emigrate from his estates: land had been given them for the mere expense of the survey—the settlers were sent out, and they had been provided for to their entire satisfaction. A similar application had been made by the hon. Member for Ludgershall with reference to emigration from Ireland, who was informed that he (Sir G. Murray) was ready to act on the same principles that had guided him with respect to the settlers from the estates of the Duke of Hamilton.
Mr. Baringhad always been of opinion, from the time he was a member of the Committee, that relief might be given by emigration, and it was the interest of parishes in the southern parts of the kingdom, which were suffering so severely from the pressure of the poor-rates, to contribute to this desirable end. With respect to the fact of the redundancy of our population, he wondered how any Gentleman could entertain a doubt upon it. Experience had proved that the theory of Mr. Malthus was correct. Those who in this country were in a state of abject pauperism, in the colonies would be in a condition of comparative comfort. Only two remedies worth consideration had been suggested:—the one was Emigration, and the other was an alteration of the Poor-laws, reverting to what had been properly called a sound interpretation of that system of enactments. An union of these remedies might perhaps be effected. Let relief be refused to the able-bodied, but there must be at the same time the means of conveying them to the colonies. This arrangement would remove all the dangers apprehended from a transition from the present system of parish relief to that of refusing relief to the able-bodied. If the poor-rates were applied only to relieve the aged and infirm, and an opportunity were afforded to the young and able-bodied to proceed to the colonies, much might be accomplished for the benefit of this kingdom. He thought, therefore, that the members of the legislature ought to make up their minds whether they would or would not try the experiment of revising the poor-laws, instead of having every year a debate upon the subject, which debate always ended in nothing. He, for one, was ready to make the experiment; but he should make it with greater confidence if, at the same
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time, the surplus population could be provided for by emigration.
Colonel O'Gradydenied that in Ireland there was a redundant population, if the waste land were brought into a proper state of tillage; and he maintained that England had no right to complain of what was termed the Irish invasion, because the absentee nobility and gentry spent in this country much more than the Irish peasantry took away.
Lord Althorpthought a Committee of the whole House—not for the purpose of examining witnesses, for that would be absurd, but for the purposes of discussion—might be attended with very beneficial effects. He thought also that no new measure ought to be introduced affecting the state of the people, or applying to the administration of the poor-laws which would not have the effect of making those who contracted imprudent marriages, at an early period of life, find themselves in a worse situation than if they had exercised a greater degree of foresight and discretion.
Mr. A. Baringexplained, that he was quite averse from returning to the old system.
Mr. Slaneyobserved, that the great principle of the old system was to find employment for the able-bodied labourer.
Mr. Humesaid, that he disapproved of charging emigrants any thing for land. The county ought rather to be at some expense to remove the paupers, than to throw impediments in the way, by seizing on the land, and not allowing it to be occupied unless its fees and exactions were paid.
Sir George Murraysaid, he had given directions to diminish the fees as much as possible. It was his wish to diminish the impediments to emigration.
Mr. W. Hortonrose to reply. He said it was the duty of the House to assert distinctly whether or not it were prepared to relieve the country from the effects of that redundant population now pressing upon its resources. It was indisputable that the population of Ireland, as compared with the demand for labour, was prodigiously redundant, and he saw no means of relief from that redundancy that could be at all considered effectual except those which he had recommended, and which he should feel it his duty to continue to recommend, notwithstanding the apathy with which they appeared to be received. It was in vain to talk of the Colonial Secretary affording facilities for emigration—

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he had not sufficient funds at his disposal. He was recommended to bring in bills, which he could very easily do, but they would prove of little use, unless money were provided to carry their provisions into effect. Bills without money were but so much waste paper. The House might rest assured that 1,000,000 l. applied to the purposes of emigration would do more good than any reduction of taxation which could possibly be effected. He knew the House received with distaste much of what he thought it his duty to say upon that subject; but he should persevere—more for the effect that might be produced out of doors, than for any thing he hoped to effect within the walls of that House. He hoped that the influence from without would urge forward some energetic means for ridding the country of the incubus of population by which it was oppressed—means for spreading English feelings and English institutions over the fertile plains of the new world. He should feel great pleasure in consenting to withdraw his present motion for a committee, but he was determined soon again to bring the subject under the consideration of the House, either by moving a resolution, or by introducing a bill, when he should take the sense of the House upon a distinct question, whether or not it would look at the difficulties of the country with a view to provide an adequate remedy for the existing evil.—Motion withdrawn.

WELSH JUDICATURE.—ADMINISTRATION OF THE LAW.
The Attorney General, after adverting to the lateness of the hour, said, he intended as shortly as possible to call the attention of the House to a Motion of his which stood on the paper, the object of which was, to introduce a Bill for the better Administration of Justice in Wales, and which must be accompanied by some further measure, such as that House might deem necessary, in respect of the procedure of the English Courts of Common Law. He also intended to propose some additional regulations in the English Courts, which would certainly not be required by anything necessary to the Welsh Judicature; but which, he conceived, would in itself be found highly expedient and advantageous. Alterations of that nature had been alluded to in the Speech from the Throne; and the present, he had to inform the House, was one of the measures in contem-
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plation of the advisers of the Crown, at the time that Speech was pronounced; and it was submitted to the House with the view of carrying his Majesty's gracious recommendation into effect in that matter. The proposition which he had to submit to the House naturally divided itself into parts—the first, such enactments as might be necessary for assimilating the administration of justice under the Court of Great Session of Chester, and in the principality of Wales, to the administration of justice in England; and, secondly, such alteration in the regulations of the English Courts as might be necessary for that purpose—arising out of these, there would be some incidental alterations necessary for effecting the due dispatch of business, and for rendering the practice of the courts uniform and regular. The administration of justice throughout England and Wales was confided to twenty judges—twelve in England, eight in Wales—of course he meant the administration of the Common Law. The first step would be, to reduce that number to fifteen; thereby removing five from our judicial establishment. Not only would these appointments be an ultimate saving to the country, but the offices attached to several of the courts would also be removed. He mentioned this in justice to Government, which, in consenting to forego so large a share of patronage as this would involve, most clearly evinced that its only object in the proposed alterations was the benefit of the community. With respect to the number of judges, it was well known that, at different periods, it varied considerably. At one time it was eighteen, at others fifteen, sixteen, and seventeen, but, for the last 100, or, he might say, 130 years, the number had been limited to twelve for England; and it was remarkable that this comparatively small number had despatched a greater share of public business than was performed by the judges of any other country in the world. The way in which he should propose the addition to the present number in England would be to add one to each of the Common Law courts. One of the five of which each court would then consist would have to sit at chambers, take bail, and do the other business out of court, which one of the judges in each court now usually performed in Term. It would be a matter of regulation amongst the judges themselves, which of them

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should attend to the chamber business in the Term; but it was the intention of the bill that only three puisne judges should sit at one time with the chief judge in each court, the number of four having been found, from long experience, to be that which was most convenient, and to which, as having been long accustomed to it, the public looked with the greatest satisfaction. It was also intended that while the four judges sat in Banco, the other judge should sit at Nisi Prius, which would have the good effect of facilitating the despatch of business, and also prevent the necessity of the chief judge of the respective courts, who usually took the nisi prius cases, leaving the court on certain days in Term, thereby often occasioning much delay to the business of Term. In this way alone there would be a saving of two days in each Term. The Bill would also propose an alteration with respect to the length of the Terms. At present some inconvenience was felt from the periods at which they commenced. Michaelmas Term began on the 6th of November, and ended on the 29th; Hilary began on the 23rd of January, and ended on the 12th of February; Easter began this year on the 28th of April, and ended on the 24th of May; and Trinity, on the 11th of June, and ended the 30th. The time for holding Easter Term was, of course, variable, as it began on the Wednesday fortnight after Easter day. When he was first acquainted with the practice of Westminster Hall, a much longer time was allowed for vacation, and that before the Michaelmas Term was much longer than at present; but for the last ten years the attention which barristers were obliged to give, owing to the increased number of days during which the courts sat, left too little time for relaxation, and for that which was even more important to the profession than relaxation, he meant the time necessary for study. In stating this, he of course meant to cast no imputation on the noble and learned Judge who presided in the Court to which he more particularly alluded. No man could feel a greater respect for that noble Lord than he did, and no man was more impressed with the constant and unremitting attention which ho gave to business, even to the risk of his own health; yet with the great attention which he bestowed, the business of the court had got into arrear, and that arrear was on the increase, The two measures which had
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been introduced by the noble and learned Lord for facilitating the despatch of business in the courts had not succeeded. The first measure was soon after repealed, and the second,—that for enabling three of the judges to sit in Banco out of the Term to discharge the arrear of Term business, was also unsuccessful. Indeed, it could not be otherwise; for it was a court without a bar and without an audience, and was not looked to by the public with that feeling of satisfaction which was so necessary to bring to it the business which was taken to the court in Term. The changes which he should propose would be—first, that Michaelmas Term should begin on the 2nd of November, and end on the 24th. This would give time for the discharge of nisi prius business for one month up to Christmas. There would then be a short vacation until the commencement of Hilary Term, which would begin on the 8th of January, and end on the 28th. By this arrangement two days which, by Act of Parliament, were dies non in our law courts, would be excluded, and so much saved for the business of the Term. He would limit the sitting after Hilary Term to one month, as about that time the circuits would begin. Generally speaking, the circuits were at an end the first week in April: he would therefore fix Easter Term for the 15th of that month, and, after sitting for twenty-four days, there would be a longer time allowed, as an interval between Easter and Trinity, than at present. Of this Term he would allow only one week for the sitting of the court. He also proposed that the court should sit only for a month after Trinity, which would leave about two months from the circuits to the Michaelmas Term. There were other points in the Bill to which he would not then advert, which would give greater facilities to the judges for transacting business in chambers, and also for trying causes, by which greater expedition would be ensured. It would be a most important thing to advance a step towards some equalization of the business of the different courts. It was not his intention to propose any alteration in the forms of business in the court—any change which it might be necessary to make in this way would be the subject of separate legislative enactment; but one point which his Bill embraced he did not wish to pass over. This point was, that there should be no arrest on mesne process

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for any sum under 100 l., unless upon special affidavit made before a judge, stating peculiar circumstances on which the judge should have a discretionary power. This would in itself greatly diminish the number of arrests. His reason for fixing the sum at 100 l. was, that no man would be likely to leave the country to get rid of the obligation to pay such a sum, and yet it was necessary to fix a limit somewhere, ft was well known that peculiar species of personal property,—such as property in the funds—was not liable to be taken in execution, and persons in debt with such property might go off to another country and live there, receiving the dividends, secure from their creditors. He had fixed the sum at the amount stated, because so extending it would greatly check the number of arrests, while it would not be too violent a departure from the present state of the law; for though many persons might think it desirable that the law of arrest for debt should be wholly abolished, he did not think that the time was yet arrived when it could be done with safety. It would, in no very long time, be seen how this limitation of the law worked, and he had no doubt that the change would be received with satisfaction by the country. In making changes such as his Bill proposed, much must be done at first as a matter of compromise; and if we could not get all the good we wished at once, we should endeavour to get as much as was within our immediate reach. Many might think he had not gone far enough in some points, but he had endeavoured to achieve as much as he could. With respect to the Court of Great Sessions of Wales, other opportunities would occur for going into the subject more in detail. He would now confine himself to stating, that it was intended to abolish the jurisdiction of that court, and assimilate the practice of the Principality to that of England. The law was the same in the two countries—the difference lay in the mode of administration. As the Court of Great Sessions would be abolished, it would be necessary to send two judges on an additional circuit. On this subject, of making a change in the Welsh circuits, it was his wish to do every thing which would make it as agreeable as possible to the inhabitants of that part of the country. He had heard what had fallen from an hon. friend near him on this subject in the early part of
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the evening, and he could assure him, that it was his desire to meet the wishes of the people of Wales in this respect, as far as he could consistently with the principle of the alteration. It was hardly necessary for him to say that the granting of commissions of Oyer and Terminer and Gaol Delivery was the prerogative of the Crown, and that the Crown could grant such commissions to be held at any time or place, and could extend their jurisdiction over such places as it might deem proper. This matter, therefore, of the extent of circuits was a matter which he thought would be much better left for decision by his Majesty by the advice of his Privy Council, than be brought for discussion in that House; and the more particularly so, as the House could act on the subject only by legislating; and any measure they might introduce for fixing the time, place, or extent of a circuit, must be the subject of an Act of Parliament, which could be altered only by another Act. In the Privy Council, any regulations that might be made by the Crown, if they were found inconvenient, or required amendment, could be rectified in a more summary and speedy manner. He was aware, as had been stated by an hon. friend near him, that in the first Report of the Commissioners on this subject, they recommended a division of counties, in the arrangement respecting the circuits. To such an alteration he could not consent. He would not divide any county, English or Welsh; but whether each county could have a separate assize town was a matter which must be left for consideration. It would be necessary in some cases to join counties in one assize, for otherwise the business of some would be so small, that it would not hold out sufficient inducement to men of eminence at the bar to attend them; and in fact it might be difficult to get a sufficient bar, unless a union of more counties than one was included in the same assize. But in such union the convenience of each county would be studied as much as possible in the selection of the place where the assize was to be held. The city of Chester would be a great object in making the new arrangements; and it would be a matter for consideration, whether much of the judicial business of the county of Lancaster, bordering on that city, and which was now transacted 50 miles off, might not with much greater convenience to the parties be despatched at Chester.

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In cases of union of more counties than one in an assize, it would be necessary that there should be only one sheriff; but in this there could be no practical inconvenience, for there would be a sub-sheriff for each county, by whom the usual business of the office would be transacted without interference. The plan might be extended to Wales which was acted on in the case of Cambridge and Huntingdon, where one sheriff acted for both. The Bill would also embrace regulations by which a jury of either county might try causes originating in the other, and this would be found a great convenience, and tend to the more perfect administration of justice; for such was the difficulty of getting a sufficient number of jurors to act in some counties, that causes were left for trial to a very few, who possibly might, in some instances, be biassed by local interests or feelings. It was also intended that the gaols in the counties should be considered in law as situate in each; and clauses would also be found regulating the mode in which the expense of Courthouse and other expenditure connected with the holding of an assize, would be apportioned between the counties joined, according to circumstances. This was the general outline of the measure which he meant to introduce, and though it might seem, at first glance, that it would require voluminous enactments, it would be found that the whole did not comprise more than a few pages. In framing the measure, he had endeavoured to avoid any violent change, or making any at all except in those points where change was expedient to carry the general principle of the measure into operation. It might, perhaps, have accorded more with certain popular notions, that when he proposed a change in the system of judicial administration, be should sweep away every thing at once. He had, however, limited himself to those alterations which were necessary, preserving, as much as possible, the ancient forms. He had little hesitation in saying, that the fifteen judges in this country would have more arduous duties to administer in causes of property than all those who presided over the administration of justice in France. It would not be uninstructive to put the House in possession of the means of comparing our institutions with those of France in reference to this important subject. The courts he would first mention of that
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country were those called the Tribunaux de Premiére Instance, in which the number of judges varied from three to eight, and one of them called the Juge d' Instruction drew up, organized, as it were, the case on which the other judges decided. From the Tribunaux de Premiére Instance a cause might be carried before one of the Cours Royales, of which there were twenty-six in the Departments, besides that at Paris. Above the Cours Royales was the Cour de Cassation, which, in fact, was a Court of Error, appointed to review all the proceedings, and observe that all the subordinate courts administered justice according to the strict forms of law. This Court had no less than forty-five judges, called Conseillers; one chief-president, and three-vice presidents, making in all forty-nine judges, besides a Procureur General, six Avocats Generaux, a Greffier, and four clerks, all of whom were appointed, and paid by the Government. The Cour Royale of Paris consisted of fifty-four judges, one chief president, and five vice-presidents, making in all sixty judges. In this Court also, there were attached Procureurs, Avocats, Greffiers, and other officers as well as to the Court of Cassation. Each of the Cours Royales, of which, as he had said, there were twenty-six in the provinces, had from twenty to forty judges; and taking the average at thirty, including that of Paris, the number of judges would be no less than eight hundred and ten; making, with those of the Court of Cassation, no less a number than eight hundred and fifty-nine judges paid by the Government. There were, moreover, the Juges de Paix, one of whom was placed in every commune. These, too, were exclusive of the Tribunaux de Premiere Instance. There were also two hundred and thirteen Tribunaux de Commerce, the judges of which were paid by the nation, the secretaries or registrars being the only officers paid by the Government. The hon. and learned Gentleman next enumerated the items of expenses attendant on each court, and calculated the aggregate at 11,265,465 francs, or 582,536 l. English, whereas, the expense of administering justice in England was only 150,000 l. in the sum total. He did not mean to cast any reflection on the French system, but he thought it would be found, on examination, that the number of causes, and the amount of property, decided by the English judges, were fully

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equal to those decided by the French judges. It might, however, be supposed that the expense being so burthen some to Government, the French suitors would on that account pay less; but this was far from being the case. The charge of a single cause in France, as he was informed by M. Le Roi, an eminent French advocate, if it went through all its stages, would be, he need not enumerate the items,—140 l., which he would undertake to say, would cover the expenses of ten causes of a similar description in London and Middle-sex. One or two causes here might cost 200 l. or 300 l., but the average of costs for each cause was not 140 l. The cost of French law proceedings would appear still greater if the parties there had to pay fees to the officers of the court, as they had in England; but in France they were paid out of the general taxes. He would further add, that the expense of a suit in the Tribunaux de Première Instance was about 800 francs; to carry it through a Cour Royale, it would cost 1000 francs more; and if it went into the Cour de Cassation the additional expense would be 1700 francs, making in all 140 l., which, considering the difference in the value of money in the two countries, was, he considered, a very large sum. From these facts he inferred, that the law costs in France at least equalled, if they were not much greater than, those occasioned by the administration of justice in England. The proceedings, moreover, were more prolix, and perhaps he might add, more unsatisfactory than our own, in consequence of law questions being mixed up with the facts of the case, as they always were in French courts of justice. It was a great advantage, in his opinion, resulting from the trial by jury in this country, that it determined the merits of a case by coming to a decision on the facts separate and distinctly from the law which might arise out of them. He would take that opportunity of saying, in vindication of that part of the English system which had been sometimes censured, because its working was not understood, that there never was a happier expedient to facilitate the administration of justice, than that of trial by jury. The separation made by that institution, in all cases, of the facts from the law, give to the rules of our law a greater certainty than was to be found in those of any other country. He was happy to have that opportunity of say-
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ing so much of what he conceived an excellent institution, because some persons turned it into ridicule. They were to be excused on account of their ignorance of the vast benefits it contained. With respect to the present system of administering justice in Wales, he would set aside his individual opinion for a moment, and adduce that of very unsuspicious witnesses. That evidence was to be found in the report of the Chamber of Commerce in Bristol, and the parties concerned had never thought of anticipating that their sentiments, so expressed, would have ever been brought forward on an occasion like the present. The report alluded to represented that those who might be creditors for debts contracted in Wales to the amount of 50 l. were obliged to have recourse to Welsh courts alone for enforcing their claims, but that the uncertainty, the risk, and the difficulties attendant on such a mode of procedure, owing to the inefficient operation, and defective constitution of those courts, induced creditors very often to relinquish their debts, as a less evil than seeking to recover them, which caused very great loss and inconvenience to the trading interests of the city of Bristol. The existing system of Welsh judicature he conceived to be erroneous and imperfect. It was a principle there, that every man was supposed to be in court, which not being generally the case, it was necessary to apply to the Courts of Equity to stay proceedings. The judges had lately, however, required that fifteen days' notice of action before the assizes should be given to all persons against whom an action was contemplated. But, up to that time, cases were hurried on without giving any adequate time for preparation, and consequently operated unjustly to the prejudice of the defendant. The Report of the Commissioners had stated, that the expenses of Welsh causes in every stage considerably exceeded those of causes in England. This also was a grievance which he intended to remove, by his Bill, if the House would allow him to bring it in. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for "the more effectual Administration of Justice in England and in the Principality of Wales."
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he was quite willing to give the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) credit for his intention to ameliorate our law, but he disclaimed having heard a

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single word which induced him to believe that the present change would be in any respect an amendment. He supposed that the object kept in view, in every change ought to be, to make law cheap, expeditious, and certain; but this measure would leave every process as tardy, uncertain, and costly as before. Convenient it certainly would be, both to judges and barristers in great practice, whom it would enable to recreate and refresh themselves; but he was yet to learn that the benefits resulting from this boasted reform would extend to the public. They would have no additional day consumed in their service, nor would the suitors find themselves placed in a more advantageous position for obtaining justice or redress. The arrangement would give a resting-place to many learned gentlemen overburthened with briefs; but it would diminish the number of clays devoted to the public service. This was, he thought wrong: he would have no Terms at all: he would have the courts always sitting, for as injustice never slept, so ought justice never to slumber. A fifth judge, too, was to be added to those who already presided in the Exchequer; but for what purpose? Why, in order to help them to do nothing. There was, nevertheless, one part of the Bill which he could not but approve of, that which related to the prevention of arrests for sums under 100 l. According to the present state of the law, if the merest wretch chose to swear a debt of 100,000 l. against any individual, not a Member of either House of Parliament, an arrest and imprisonment of the party designated would be the immediate consequence. Not long ago, a woman in Dublin, who could neither read nor write, had made oath to a debt amounting to 60,000 l., which she alleged to be due to her from a respectable gentleman, and her affidavit was acted on forthwith. Special pleading also was a subject which he wished to see reformed in all its parts, as it only increased the expense of coming at the truth, and prevented the parties from coming into the presence of the judge until their resources were previously exhausted. They then often settled matters by arbitration, which they might have done in the outset but for this precious system of special pleading. They ought likewise to give every county its local court, and facilitate the administration of justice at every man's door. The Secretary for the Home Department had expressed
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himself favourable to the introduction of such courts, with authority to decide cases of small debt; but why, when the principle was acknowledged, should they not be extended to large debts as well? This advantage Wales had enjoyed hitherto; but it was about to be deprived of it by the Bill in contemplation. They would henceforward be constrained to make application in London before any step whatever could be taken. An American captain might owe a debt to an inhabitant, and before the writ could arrive from the metropolis would most probably pay his debt (according to the sea phrase) by the foretopsail. They must now travel for justice, whether it be in a law case or an equity case, for it was no longer to be extended to them as heretofore at home. By the time about 400 Welsh cases tacked to the tail of the list in Chancery were disposed of, he supposed successive generations of those interested would have passed into the grave. The local tribunals were also to be annihilated. The hon. and learned Gentleman, in adverting to France, might have recollected that justice was there to be had at every man's door; and in this respect the French enjoyed a superiority over ourselves, since they travelled for justice for the first time when they themselves made an appeal to the Cour Royale. What consolation was it to us if they were charged exorbitantly for justice? Did their misfortunes alleviate our own? But the hon. and learned Gentleman had forgotten that the expense he had described was for thirty-two millions of people, while the expense here was incurred for twelve. The hon. and learned Gentleman had also omitted all mention of fees when he stated the expense of our courts. He had not enumerated all the expenses attendant on the constitution of our courts when he mentioned 150,000 l. as the sum total, which he could very easily make appear, if the late hour would permit. In brief, he would for his own part consent to cashier half our army, and get rid of half our colonies, if by so doing we could accelerate and cheapen the administration of justice.
Sir J. Owenprotested against the measure from a conviction that, by the abolition of local judicature, the costs of law would be more than doubled to the inhabitants of Wales. He was confident that Government would not so far disregard the feelings of the people as to suffer this Bill to

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go into a committee before the Easter holydays.
Mr. Wilbrahamhad no doubt but it would prove highly advantageous to that part of the country to which he personally belonged. He wished to thank the hon. and learned Member for the bill.
Mr. C. W. Wynnwas of opinion, that the annihilation of the local judicature would confer an important benefit on the Principality; and he was led to form this conclusion after an attentive consideration of the subject, confirmed by his own individual experience of the practice in these courts themselves. There was, to a certain degree, disadvantage in every change, but here the good counterbalanced the evil. He hoped, however, that the Bill would not be allowed to go into a committee before the assizes, in order to give time for examination of its merits.
The Solicitor General, in reply to the hon. and learned Member for Clare, stated that it was a part of the measure in question, so to apportion the business as to provide that the Court of Exchequer should for the future do a fair and reasonable share of the work of the country. It sounded well to propose that they should bring justice to every man's door, but in practical operation it might not be so convenient. The local magistracy would become mixed up with the interests of families, and it was hardly possible to avoid partiality when the same gentlemen were sent again and again to administer justice amidst the same local associations.
Mr. O'Connellexplained, that he had not desired that local tribunals should be composed of persons selected from their respective neighbourhoods.
Mr. Jonesdefended the character of the Welsh judges, and observed, that several of the most distinguished ornaments of the judicial bench had previously filled the office of Welsh judge. Whether England would be content with having three additional judges when those at present existing were not all employed, he did not pretend to say, but it was certainly hard that the interests of Wales should be made the ladder by which ambitious barristers were to climb to such preferment as three additional seats on the bench must necessarily induce. It was admitted on all hands that the Welsh were attached to their present institutions; and he could not bring forward a better proof of their feelings, than the fact that the inhabitants
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of Denbigh sent in a petition against this Bill, although the potent family of the Wynns had mustered all their influence at the meeting in that town, for the purpose of opposing its being carried. As to the comparison of expense, made by the hon. and learned Gentleman, between France and England, that was nothing to the purpose; for if the French chose to have expensive law, was that to justify us in submitting to great inconvenience? But even in making that comparison the hon. and learned Member had not been accurate. He had omitted Scotland and Ireland, and the local jurisdictions of many stipendiary magistrates. The Bill was a benefit forced on the people of Wales against their inclinations. All the petitions on the subject, except one, were against the measure. He could not imagine what had made the Ministers interfere in the business, for the whole population of the Principality, except a few rich people, to whom it was of no consequence where they got justice, were averse from it. The learned Solicitor General seemed to think that a judge in the neighbourhood was an evil, and he would probably think a judgment delivered at Moscow even better for the people of Wales than one delivered in London. The learned Gentleman seemed to have forgot that there were such things as juries, and deriving all his notions from the courts of equity, he seemed to suppose that every document concerning a cause might be sent up in a box by the coach from Wales. But for the eulogium passed by the Attorney General on juries, he should have been afraid that the next step would have been to abolish them, but he hoped the poor Welshmen would long be allowed to preserve that part of their ancient institutions.
Mr. C. W. Wynn, in explanation, stated, that the Denbigh meeting was not unanimous, and that the measure was opposed by the inhabitants in consequence of their expectation that their interests would be injured should the assizes be occasionally removed.
Sir Christopher Colesaid, he saw no reason why Wales should have a separate judicial system any more than Yorkshire. He was glad that the Ministers had taken the matter in hand, and he hoped that they would successfully carry it through.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonsaid, he regretted that the Bill did not provide some remedy for the inequality of business in the dif-

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ferent courts in England. The judges ought to have equal labour and equal responsibility; but he did not know how that was to be obtained, unless the causes were all placed in one list, and each court should take a part of them in succession. The plaintiff had no right to select a tribunal any more than the defendant. It was said that the Court of Common Pleas was an efficient court, but ho found, if the whole business were equally divided between the three courts, each one of them would have one-half more to do than the Court of Common Picas, and four-fifths more than the Court of Exchequer. It was not fair, therefore, to over-burthen, as at present, the Court of King's Bench with so much more than an average share of business. He agreed with the hon. Member for Clare, that it was most desirable to carry justice home to every man's door, but he doubted whether it were possible to find a sufficient number of judges to put such a scheme, on the French plan, into execution. He should think it harsh to force, a measure of the nature of that then before the. House on any people against their inclination; but not believing, after what had been stated by two hon. Members, that this was the case, he should give his assent to the Motion.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that the proposition of his hon. and learned friend had not. been fairly treated. He had proposed to introduce a measure to alter the jurisdiction of the Welsh Courts, and it might have been supposed, as the House had previously been engaged in discussing the twelve propositions of his right hon. friend, that it would, at that late hour, have thought the discussion of one topic at a time enough. The hon. Member for Clare, however, was disappointed that the Bill did not reform the whole practice of all our courts, and he had indulged in many remarks on that subject. He had himself, as a preliminary measure to such a reform, slated his intention to introduce a bill for pulling an end to patent offices, and till that, and the question concerning fees were disposed of, the reform of the courts could not be proceeded with. Measures Were in contemplation, also, for an equal distribution of business among the courts, and he did not expect that subject would have been brought under the notice of the House, when it was only called on to discuss the question of the Welsh
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Judicature. The House had heard also a great deal about the repugnance of the people of Wales to the measure, but he would like to ask on which of the representatives of that principality the House meant to rely? The declarations of two hon. Members at least showed that the inhabitants were not universally opposed to the measure. The Welsh had no local tribunal which would be taken from them by the Bill. The judges would go into Wales at different periods of the year, as at present, and when it was said that the Welsh were devotedly attached to their local tribunals, it should be remembered, that at present a great number of causes were sent into England to be tried in order to get rid of local prejudices. It ought also to be observed, when it was said that the Welsh would lose their Equity Courts, that, in fact, most of the Equity cases came already up to London to be settled. It was a curious illustration of the Equity Courts of Wales, that they were chiefly of use to stay the irregular proceedings of the Courts of Law. That was not, however, the time for discussing those matters in detail, and he would not go further into them. He could, however, assure those who had expressed themselves so anxious for delay, that there was no design whatever on the part of Government to force this measure on the people of Wales without giving them abundant time to consider it in all its bearings. Such a disposition, he thought, had been satisfactorily evinced already by his right hon. friend, when he gave notice of his intention so early after the commencement of the Session.
Mr. Rice Trevorwished only to state, that he had presented a petition from the county he represented against the change, and in the sentiments of that petition he fully concurred.
The Attorney Generalprofessed himself disposed to give all the time for delay which could be conceded consistently with his intention to have it passed through both Houses of Parliament before the expiration of the Session. He wished it to be understood that it was no part of his plan to touch the Palatine Courts of Durham, Chester, and Lancaster. As to what had been said of France, he had compared, not the amount of population in the two kingdoms, but the extent of business done by the judges. He had stated that the twelve judges of England decided as

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many causes, involving as large an amount of property, as the judges of France; and that statement, which he would re-affirm, had not been controverted. He had also distinctly stated, that he meant to propose no alteration in the form of procedure except as to arrests for debt. He could not agree with the hon. Member for Clare in what he had said with respect to special pleading, as he considered the present system unobjectionable, and no man could become a good lawyer without attaining a competent knowledge of it. He knew that there was a sect in this country containing many clever men, who were of a different opinion, but whose theories he regarded as unfounded. He knew one celebrated individual who objected to trial by jury, he knew that that individual had made many proselytes, and perhaps the hon. Member might be one of them. He knew also, that it was very easy to find fault where there was a disposition, and that it was more difficult to defend than to attack, but he would take the liberty of saying, that ordinary talents were sufficient for criticism, while to compose a system required time and genius. When institutions had been matured by time, they modelled the habits of the people to themselves, and therefore, if for no other reason, they were generally deserving of support. He thought, when the time came for a more complete discussion of all those circumstances, that he should be able to satisfy the hon. Member for Clare, that he was wrong also in his wish to carry cheap justice to every man's door. One disadvantage of many judges was the uncertainty of the law, the decision of one tribunal in France being often at variance with another. As to the measure itself, he would only say that those who were concerned in bringing it forward had undergone the severest labour in preparing it for the legislature ever since the second week in November, which, he submitted, did not manifest any undue or inordinate desire to spare themselves, or to hurry it through the House.
Mr. Humeanimadverted on some observations that had fallen from the Attorney General, conveying, as he conceived, a sneer of ridicule, directed against Mr. Bentham and the doctrines advocated by that writer and his followers. Instead of sarcastically reviling such a man as Mr. Bentham, he thought it would be well for the Attorney General if he would cultivate
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his principles, and labour to attain the same exalted character in the estimation of the civilized world.
The Attorney Generaldisavowed having made any disrespectful allusion to Mr. Bentham or his writings, and he could not help thinking that a very insidious application had been made of any expressions he might have uttered. He entertained a high respect for Mr. Bentham, whom he had not the honour to know personally, although he was acquainted with those who were on intimate terms with that gentleman. It did not follow, however, that the respect which he felt for the writer was to extend to an adoption of his opinions. He did speak of a sect, but he had cast no reflections upon its members.
Mr. Humeregretted that he had misunderstood the hon. and learned Gentleman, and was happy to hear him disclaiming any disrespectful intention.
Motion agreed to. Bill ordered to be brought in.