Commons Sitting of 1 March 1830

MINUTES.
Mr. PLANTA moved for a new writ for the borough of Gatton, in the room of the hon. William Scott, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds—Sir R. HURON gave notice for Wednesday of a Motion for copies of the warrants by which the hon. ROBERT DUNDAS was appointed a Commissioner of the Navy, and the hon. W. L. BATHURST, a Commissioner of the Victualling Boards—Colonel SIRTHORP postponed his Motion for the repeal of the Standing Orders relative to the non-admission of strangers to the gallery of the House of Commons, (as far as regards the reporters of proceedings in the House, and for the accommodation of the same,) from the 3rd to the 12th of March. An Address was ordered to be presented to his Majesty, for a return of the number of Pro-bates of Wills and Letters of Administration granted in the principality of Wales during the last five years: also for a return of the number of suits in Equity commenced in the principality of Wales for the last ten years.—An Address was also ordered to be presented to his Majesty for a copy of the 21st Report of the Commissioners to in-quire into the public revenue arising in Ireland.—On the Motion of Mr. G. DAWSON, the Consolidated Fund Bill was read a third time and passed.—Mr. S. RICE gave notice of his intention to move for leave to bring in a Bill to remove certain civil disabilities still existing against Roman Catholics in the Corporation of Gal way—Mr. O'CONNELL postponed his notice of Motion respecting the Law of Libel, from to-morrow, to the 29th of April.

SAINT KATHARINE'S DOCKS.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonmoved the second reading of the St. Katharine Dock Company's Bill.
Mr. C. Culvertwished the hon. Member to postpone the second reading of

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the Bill, which he had had only five minutes in his hands, on the ground that it would only be right to allow individuals whose interests were likely to be compromised by the Bill to have an opportunity of seeing it.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonsaid, the Bill had been printed more than ten days, and to the best of his knowledge all persons interested had received copies. The object of the Bill was simply to enable the St. Katharine's Docks Company to borrow a sum of money; it conferred no new powers upon them. If the second reading were postponed, several days would be lost, and the parties put to much inconvenience; he must therefore decline acceding to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Southwark.
Mr. Wardconfirmed the statement of his hon. colleague; the Bill was only intended to carry into effect powers already possessed by the Company, upon whom it conferred no new powers whatsoever.
Mr. C. Culvertdid not divide the House, and the Bill was read a second time.

WOOL TRADE.
Sir E. Knatchbullpresented a Petition from certain inhabitants of Romney Marsh, complaining of great depression in the Wool-Trade, and praying for the imposition of duties on the importation of foreign Wool. The hon. baronet observed, that he could testify, from his own knowledge, that the depression of the Wool-trade was very considerable, and that great losses had been sustained by the growers, in consequence of the low price of that article.
Sir C. Burrellsaid, when the Duke of Richmond brought forward a motion on the subject of the Wool-trade last Session, he was met by the assertion of a noble Lord, that the distress was not general but partial. He did not mean to say that the noble Lord had descended to a misrepresentation; no doubt he had been misinformed, and was not acquainted with the true state of the country with respect to the Wool-trade, any more than with respect to other matters of equal interest and importance. At the very time that this statement was made, it appeared that the price of long Wool, which used to be 1s. 8d. and 2s. a pound, had fallen in the midland counties, and in the north of England, to 8d. and 9d. Long Wool was
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an article, in the production of which we had no competitors in the world, yet the price was reduced in this manner. In consequence of having taken off the duty, and admitted foreign Wool into the home market, we had transferred two millions of money from our own pockets to those of the foreign farmer. It was not extraordinary that, under such circumstances, there should be great agricultural depression, and considerable loss to a previously falling revenue; between 400,000 l. and 500,000 l being thrown away, which used to be levied as duties on foreign Wool.
Mr. Irvingobserved, that foreign Wool was necessary to the prosperity of our manufactures, and if we laid heavy taxes upon foreign Wool, we should exclude our manufactures from the foreign market.
Colonel Sibthorpsaid, the farmers had been fed on hope so long, that they almost had become skeletons, and would speedily be starved to death, if they were not relieved.
Mr. H. Davissaid, there was less foreign Wool in the country now, than at the same period of the year during the last thirty years. He was opposed to laying duties upon the importation of foreign Wool, which would be very injurious to our manufactures.
Sir E. Knatchbullwas afraid that the noble Lord, who had been alluded to by his hon. friend the Member for Shoreham, (Sir C. Burrell) did not always obtain the best authority for his statements. Improvements were spoken of; he hoped they might not turn out to be fallacious, like some of the statements of the noble Lord. One thing was certain, that the petitioners saw no signs of amendment.

TRUCK SYSTEM.
Mr. Littletonpresented three Petitions from Staffordshire against the payment of labourers' wages otherwise than in money. The first Petition was from the Chamber of Commerce of the Staffordshire Potteries, stating that in their district no fewer than thirty thousand persons were employed in the manufacture of china and earthenware, and that the depression arising from other sources was much augmented by the practice of paying wages partly by Truck. The barter was not conducted upon equal terms. The masters obliged their workmen to take such articles as they pleased at their own price, and the latter were frequently compelled to sell these at a considerable

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discount in order to pay their rent, &c. The second Petition was from the shopkeepers and traders of the Staffordshire Potteries; and the third came from the same class of persons in Walsall, in Staffordshire: both complained that the profits of the Petitioners and their means of maintenance were considerably impaired in consequence of the system complained of.

ABSENTEES.
Colonel Sibthorpmoved for an account of the number of Passports granted to persons to go abroad in the years 1826, 1827, 1828, and 1829, specifying the number issued in each year, the names of the parties, and the countries for which the passports were made out. The hon. Member took occasion to complain of the evils of absenteeism, and expressed his conviction of the propriety of imposing a tax upon absentees. If such a tax were properly imposed it would cause 4,000,000 l. to be spent at home that was spent abroad.
Lord Lowthersaid, there were only two quarters to which application could be made for the Returns desired by the hon. Member,—the Home-office, and Foreign Embassies. Supposing the accounts to be obtained from the former, he was not aware upon what principle we could tax the courtesy of the foreign ambassadors to furnish this species of information; over these parties the House had no power.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, that not one out of twenty persons going abroad went to the Foreign-office, since the ambassador's passport was more cheap and more useful.
Mr. Peelsaid, that to call for the names of all persons who had gone abroad during these four years, was, in his opinion, a most unwarrantable interference with private affairs, He had no objection to a return of the amount of fees received at the Foreign-office, and of the total number of passports granted; but, to a return of the names of the persons he decidedly objected; not for any public reason, but because it was an interference with private affairs, which could not be justified unless it conduced to the attainment of some public benefit.
Sir C. Burrellhoped his hon. friend (Colonel Sibthorp) would see the justice of the right hon. Gentleman's objection, and. not press the motion.
Sir G. Warrendersaid, that the higher orders of persons never went to the Foreign-office, but to foreign ambassadors, and this return, therefore, would be an unfair one. It would include only a certain class of persons, whom he thought it unfair to show up.
Colonel Sibthorpsaid, that at the suggestion of the hon. Baronet (sir C. Burrell), but not at the suggestion of his Majesty's Ministers, he would withdraw his motion. He had no wish, to use the words of the other hon. Baronet, to "show up "anybody.

BEER DUTY.
Mr. Burrellpresented Petitions from several parishes in the counties of Kent and Sussex, praying for the repeal of the Malt-tax.
Sir C. Burrelltook this opportunity of observing, that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended merely to make a small remission of the duty on Beer, he was afraid his committee would do no good. Unless the tax were taken off Malt, the Ministers would give no relief. He begged to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if such were his intention?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that with respect to the committee for which he meant to move to-morrow, the hon. Baronet had mistaken the object of it. The object of that committee would be merely to inquire how far it was possible to give greater freedom to the trade in Beer, and would have no reference to the tax on Malt.

WEST-INDIA TRADE.
Mr. H. Davispresented a Petition from the West-India Merchants and Planters of Bristol, complaining of severe distress, and praying for a reduction of the duties on Sugar and Rum. The hon. Member said, that much as the House had heard of distress from various parts of the country, there was no pressure so severe as that which was felt in the West-India Colonies. This subject had been so forcibly and clearly explained by the noble Lord, who had on a late occasion presented a similar Petition from the West-India Planters and Merchants of the Metropolis, that he (Mr. Davis) was relieved from a considerable part of that duty which he should otherwise have felt himself called upon to perform: still there were many points which he must briefly refer to in order to explain the evils under which the petitioners were suffering, and the remedies which they

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proposed for their own relief. In the first place he must state that the prices of Sugar were so depreciated as not only to deprive the planter of all profit, but to ensure his utter destruction if remedial measures were not immediately applied. The duties on Sugar in the year 1796 were at the rate of 27 per cent on the price of that commodity. In 1824 they had mounted up to 80 per cent, and in 1829 to 110 per cent, and on the lower-priced Sugars from 140 to 160 per cent. That great ascent in the scale of duties had arisen from two causes; viz. an increase in the duty, and a fall in the prices, arising out of an enormous increase in the foreign Slave Trade, and also on account of the Sugars from the Mauritius having been allowed to be brought into the home consumption of this country, amounting to nearly an eighth part of the whole importation. The remedies which the petitioners suggested for their relief were:—first, a reduction of, and secondly, a classification of, the duty, agreeably to the scale proposed by a select committee of the House in the year 1807; namely, that the duty should be 30 s. per cwt when the average price of Sugar was 80 s. per cwt., and rateably downwards to 20 s. per cwt. when the average price was at 60 s. If he were asked whether the duty so proposed to be taken off would go into the planter's pocket, he should say, that a part of it would go to the planter's relief, and the other part to the lowering of the price of Sugar, by which the consumption would be increased, and thus the quantity in the market would be lessened. With regard to the last duty laid upon Rum of 1s. 6d. per gallon, the West-Indian Planters were suffering not only injury, but injustice. This duty was laid on at the period when Rum was permitted to be legally rectified: and it was stated by Mr. Robinson, the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day, as necessary for the protection of the English distiller: but he promised at the time, that if in practice the duty should not be found necessary, he would repeal the tax. Not a gallon of Rum had been rectified since that period. He therefore called upon his Majesty's Ministers to redeem the pledge given by Mr. Robinson and take off this duty. When we were discussing the interests of the West-India planters, we ought never to forget that they consumed 5,000,000 l. or 6,000.000 l. of our manufactures,—that they paid
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6,000,000 l. sterling into our Exchequer annually, and that they employed a large portion of British tonnage, which was a considerable nursery for British seamen. Nor could he avoid again pressing upon the attention of his Majesty's Ministers a revision of the law of the registration of Slaves. In many instances which had come to his knowledge, it had borne very heavily, and in some instances most unjustly, on the West-Indian planters. It was an evil that was increasing daily, because, as estates in the islands were becoming exhausted and worn out, there was less and less profitable employment for the Slaves. It was therefore highly desirable that, under certain restrictions, so as to exclude illicit trade, it might be allowed to remove the Slaves, when necessary, from one island to another.
Mr. C. Pallmersaid, that in deference to the anxiety of the House to proceed to the appointed business of the evening, he should forbear to offer to its attention some facts and observations which he had found no opportunity of doing upon a former evening upon this truly important subject—one, which he was prepared to prove was of vital interest, both to the Kingdom and the Colonies. As a right hon. Gentleman below him had given notice of a motion on that subject, he should reserve to that opportunity his humble but earnest endeavours to persuade Parliament to save the Colonies from ruin, and itself from the merited charge of the most infatuated policy and the most fatal injustice.
The Petition was then read.

MISREPRESENTATION.
Mr. O'Connellpresented a Petition from the Roman Catholic inhabitants of the island of Grenada, praying for the removal of all Colonial Disabilities.
On the Motion that the Petition be read,
Mr. Broughamsaid, I do not rise, Sir, to oppose the Motion, nor to enter into a discussion upon the merits of this Petition, but as it relates to a colonial subject, it gives me an opportunity of correcting a misrepresentation arising, no doubt, from misapprehension, but at the same time a misrepresentation than which any one more gross or more unfounded it has never fallen to my lot to hear of, with respect to the conduct of public men. I am quite sure that neither of the hon. Gentlemen who took part in the discussion of Friday

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night, after I left the House, could have had any intention of saying any thing that would affect either my personal or my professional character. Sure I am, that my hon. friend the Member for Westminster meant no such thing; but the hon. Member for Colchester made the greatest possible mistake respecting facts, when he alluded, in so extremely an unpleasant way, to me and to the profession to which I have the honour to belong. For the profession I have no doubt it was intended, because I am aware that many think there is no better way of promoting a reform in the law, than by degrading the legal profession; and therefore, that whenever an opportunity of vituperating any member of that profession offers, there is so much gained towards the accomplishment of the great object they have in view. I know this is the opinion of many conscientious and enlightened men. It is not mine. They, however, have a right to entertain these opinions, and to act upon them whenever they may find occasion so to do; but, Sir, they have no right to make misstatements; and this brings me to the fact. I understand, that during my absence, allusion was made to a circumstance which I have reason to believe has been often mentioned out of doors, but which now, for the first time, has been brought before this House. Up to this time, I have had accordingly no opportunity of justifying myself by answering to this charge. Now, it is stated, if a Member of this House, who is also a member of the legal profession, be retained in any cause, that, according to the etiquette of the profession, he is debarred from performing his parliamentary functions. As, for instance, if he gave notice in his place that he would impeach a public servant, and that afterwards this public servant gave him a retainer in some other cause bearing upon it never so remotely, the effect of this retainer would, according to the etiquette of the profession, be to stop all proceedings in Parliament, and consequently compel him to give up the charge he had contemplated as a Member of this House, but which was become incompatible with his duty as an advocate. The inference from this, and the fair logical inference, I allow, is that a lawyer is incapable of discharging his duties as a Member of Parliament. But, Sir, on behalf of myself, and on behalf of the profession, I beg distinctly and
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peremptorily to disclaim all such rules, principles, and privileges, whatsoever. And if it can be shown that one lawyer in England, Ireland, or Scotland, ever dreamt of any such thing, I will at once withdraw my disclaimer. Well, Sir, this was the position, now for the illustration, which is said to be—that in the year 1825 I presented a petition complaining of certain malversations upon the part of Lord C. Somerset at the Cape of Good Hope; and that upon the occasion of presenting it, I intimated an intention of going farther, and that I even spoke of impeaching Lord C. Somerset of high crimes and misdemeanours; but it is added, that after I had taken this very decided course in my parliamentary capacity, I was retained by his Lordship in a cause more or less connected with the subject-matter of the petition; and that this forthwith stopped my mouth, and prevented me from pursuing the parliamentary proceedings to which I had alluded. That is the allegation. Such a statement may be sometimes made for the purpose of attacking the profession to which I belong, as perhaps in the present instance; or it may be directed against myself. But I care not what is the object, nor what the shape of the charge. I give it now, the first time I have had the opportunity, the most positive, unqualified, and peremptory denial; and if, without violating the decorum of this House, I could find words sufficiently strong wherein to couch that denial, so as to make it the more searching and overwhelming, I would not hesitate to use them. I never had a fee, I never had a retainer, from Lord Charles Somerset. I never was, to use the words of the Bill of Rights, engaged or employed in any court or place by Lord Charles Somerset, during the whole course of my life. I never was retained, or employed, or consulted, by Lord Charles Somerset, or any member of his family, in any matter whatsoever, during the whole course of my life. On the contrary, I have been repeatedly concerned, and no later than; last term, for instance, against several near relations of Lord Charles Somerset. It often happens that gentlemen are retained without their knowledge. Indeed it seldom occurs that they know by whom they are retained at the moment the retainer is given. Not trusting, therefore, to my own knowledge, I, to make assurance doubly sure, had my fee-books

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searched for the last ten years. I did this, not so much in justice to myself us to Lord Charles Somerset; for if I could vary, though it was not very likely, my parliamentary course for a fee of a guinea (the thing is so ridiculous it hardly deserves that a moment should be wasted upon it),it was at least proper to ascertain whether the noble Lord had thrown even that temptation in my way. I say, then, that I caused my books to be searched for the last ten years, and the result is that which I have given. That being the denial to this complaint, I really do not see how it is possible to go farther into it. The House, however, will favour me with a few moments' indulgence, and they will then see how very unjustly towards Lord Charles Somerset (for me it does not affect)—how very unjustly towards Lord Charles Somerset has this colour been given to the transaction. The circumstances of the case are simply these:—I presented a petition to this House on the subject of the Government of the Cape, and that petition contained one very grave charge against Lord Charles Somerset—it was that of having indirectly taken a bribe from a party to a suit which he was about to decide. It was alleged that he had called on a party to buy a horse at the sum of 10,000 l., a sum greatly exceeding, of course, the value of the animal, and one which was supposed to have been given to influence the judgment of the noble Lord in a suit in the Court in which he presided, the real value of the horse being stated at 700 l.; and it was alleged, that after this transaction, Lord Charles Somerset decided in favour of the party who was the purchaser. Though this charge was in a parenthesis of the petition, I said at once, it was so immeasurably more important than the rest, that if I found there was any foundation for it (which I did not believe, but about which I would inquire), I should myself, in the capacity of a Member of this House, which I could do without a seconder or a support, and, indeed, without a majority of the House, impeach Lord Charles Somerset. I was then Counsel in a cause, in which, it was true, Lord Charles Somerset was in some way concerned; but he was not a party to the cause, nor did he retain me as Counsel; nor was I retained after the charge I had brought against him on the petition in this House,—The fact was, he had been
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the judge in a case in which an appeal was brought against his judgment; and, though I was engaged to support his judgment, I was no more connected with him than I am with any judge in support of whose decision I may have to plead in this country. Of course, having to defend the judgment appealed from, I was bound to look into the case, and it turned out that that case arose from the same in which the transaction of the horse was stated to have occurred. I looked into the case to see what it was. I was Counsel for the respondent, and it therefore became a matter of necessity that as such Counsel, I should support the judgment which had been given in favour of my client. I was bound to support the judgment before the Privy Council. As soon as I found this out, I stated to the House the conflicting duties I had to perform; I was in what our neighbours, the French, call a "false position;" that is, I had in the morning to argue as a Counsel in favour of Lord Charles Somerset's judgment before a Court attended frequently by Members of this House, and in the evening I had to come down here, and before many of the same Members, to impeach that judgment as a Member of this House. I ask whether, under these circumstances, there was any thing very strained, or very refined, in stating to the House the position in which I stood, and in asking whether there was not some hon. Member who would relieve me from the difficulty of my position, and undertake the management of the matter of that petition, for if not, I would give up the case, and do my parliamentary duty? I am sorry to take up the time of the House, but I must beg the attention of hon. Members, for it is an easy thing to attack any man, and he ought to be allowed every advantage in making his defence. I have stated that it was alleged in the petition that on a certain day the horse was sold for the large price of 10,000 l. If that statement had even the shadow of a foundation, I should have been bound to bring the impeachment; but when I looked into the case, I found, in the first place, that the sums stated were wrong. The horse was sold not for 10,000 l., nor for any sum of the kind, nor was its value 700 l. or 800 l., but 300 l. or 400 l., which I believe is a usual price for such animals as these. That was the first error. In the next place, it was physically impos-

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sible, as I will satisfy the House, if they will do me the honour to attend, that this transaction of the purchase of the horse could have had any effect upon the judgment of Lord Charles Somerset, for it occurred some months after the judgment had been delivered. The judgment was delivered on the 30th of April, and the sale of the horse took place on the 1st of September. But that was not all: for if the purchase of the horse had been made to influence the judge, his judgment was all the wrong way, for it was against the man to whom the horse was sold. Now, after this, suppose I had had ever such good reasons, in the first instance, to confide in the statements in the petition, I ask whether I was bound to go on with it, after I had thus discovered its material error? I must at the same time say on behalf of the gentleman whose petition I presented, that I thought then, and think still, that he was ill used; and I should be willing to present the petition from him, or any other man, under similar circumstances: but it is one thing to present a petition, and another to go on and impeach the government mentioned in it. I cross-examined the gentleman who furnished me with the petition, and did what I could to assure myself of the truth of the statements in it; but it was not his own case, and of course he could only speak to the best of his belief. When I found I must fail in that charge, I resolved not to go further; and within a week afterwards I stated to the House that it was too late that Session to put a public officer on his trial, and that the question must therefore be postponed to the next Session—it was so postponed; in the next nothing was done; but in the Session after, I gave the same explanation which I have now given, and which I hope I shall not be called on to give again. I acquit the hon. Member who has brought the matter forward of any intention of attacking me personally; but I must express, on behalf of the profession of the law, not of myself, a doubt whether a more complete, and perfect, and satisfactory answer could be given to any charge brought against one of its members.
Mr. D. W. Harveysaid, that the hon. and learned Member who had just addressed the House had but done him justice in saying that he had no intention of attacking any particular individual. He had no such intention; but he would not
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abstain from doing his duty under the dread of falling under the exercise of the powers of any hon. Gentleman, even of the hon. and learned Gentleman himself. He confessed he had thought that it was impossible for a man to be in such a situation without having his judgment influenced by it in the performance of his duty in that House; and it occurred to him the more strongly, from the peculiar locality of the hon. Member in that House—for it happened just about that time that the hon. and learned Gentleman took a conspicuous situation on the other side of the House. After he had expected to have seen the noble Lord impeached, he was surprised, and his surprise was not singular, at the course the hon. and learned Member so peremptorily and unexpectedly took: but it was obvious then, and it appeared now to be the fact, that he was engaged professionally in the same matter, and the result appeared to be, that it produced in his mind an impression the most perfectly different from that which he had expressed when he read the petition in that House. He had never given any opinion on that case — he entertained none; but he had no doubt, after the satisfactory statement made by the hon. and learned Gentleman, that he had exercised a sound judgment on the subject. There was only one circumstance which was at variance with what the hon. and learned Gentleman had observed, and that was an observation which amounted to this, that it was preposterous to suppose that any gentleman in the profession could be Counsel and Judge in the same cause at the same time. Did the hon. and learned Gentleman forget that there were fourteen Courts, or divisions of a Court (for such were the lists of Commissioners of Bankrupts) sitting at the same time, and that as almost all the persons composing these Courts were practising barristers, each might be retained to plead before the Court of which he was a member. He would not say it was a seemly practice, but so it was. The hon. and learned Gentleman had asserted that he (Mr. Harvey) was "ready to join with the crowd in raising an outcry against his branch of the profession, and assaulting the magnitude of barristers fees He really had no wish to do any such thing; but at the same time he must say, that there was ample room for amendment in that respect, and that no reform would be effectual

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which did not place that portion of the profession under control and regulation. If a solicitor charged 13 s. 4d., and the Master struck off 6s. 8d., the party got the benefit of the disallowance; but if a fee of fifty or one hundred guineas was marked on the back of a brief, and the Master disallowed one half of the sum, or even if the barrister did not attend in Court, he knew no means of getting back the sum that had been disallowed. Such a statement of his opinion was certainly not an attempt to run down a branch of the profession incapable of defending itself. He was however, a reformer; and being so, he was desirous that reform should be carried into every department where it was required.
Mr. Broughamaffirmed that the hon. Member was still in error as to the facts, as much as the petition alluded to had been, with respect to the charge of bribery against Lord Charles Somerset. The hon. Member alluded to the locality of his (Mr. Brougham's) position in the House, which he observed had become changed about that time. Now it did so happen that in this he was altogether wrong. The transactions respecting the petition were in 1825. They were begun, continued, and ended in eight days, in the month of May or June in that year. It was a great mistake, therefore, to connect his change of position in that House with the circumstance, for that change did not occur until long after. He repeated, that he would never again trouble the House on this subject, for he had given the same explanation two or three years before.

DEPUTY SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
Mr. C. Fergussonin moving for certain Returns from the Court of Session in Scotland, took the opportunity of asking the right hon. Secretary of State a question, in relation to the late learned Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas. That learned Lord had retired, and had, as he believed, obtained a pension on the ground of infirm health. By the 29th of Geo. 3rd., his Majesty was empowered to grant to the Judges of the Courts of Westminster Hall certain annuities, upon their retiring from the Bench. That power was limited to cases in which these learned persons had been fifteen years upon the Bench, with the excepted case of persons who retired from permanent infirmity. The question he put was;
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Whether that noble and learned Lord was about to be appointed to another office; to one of high trust, great responsibility, and considerable labour; he meant the office of Deputy Speaker of the House of Lords; an office which embraced, among many other labours, that important duty of deciding on Appeals from Scotland? He hoped that what he had said would not be construed in the slightest manner to reflect upon the Noble and learned Lord; for, except for the reason he had stated, he should not have said a word on the subject. The question he wished to put was, Whether the Government intended to appoint Lord Wynford Deputy Speaker of the House of Lords?
Mr. Peelsaid, that the Government had it not in contemplation to make any special appointment of Deputy Speaker. The Chief Baron of the Exchequer, by virtue of his appointment as such, and the Master of the Rolls in the same manner, would sit in the House of Lords in the absence of the Lord Chancellor. There was no intention of making any special or individual appointment; there would be a general appointment; but in any? event, whether Lord Wynford was appointed or not, there was no intention whatever of attaching any salary to the office.

MALT DUTIES.
Mr. Slaneypresented a Petition from one thousand persons, comprising the principal land-owners of three hundreds in the county of Salop, praying for the repeal of the Act relating to the Duty on Malt.
Mr. Portmanreminded the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, early in last Session, he agreed to bring in a bill to regulate the Malt Duty. He had not yet pressed the right hon. Gentleman to perform that promise, because he wished and expected that the delay would induce him to change a bill to regulate the Malt into a bill to repeal the Malt Duty altogether.

DISTRESS IN DROGHEDA.
Mr. O'Connellpresented a Petition from certain inhabitants of the town of Drogheda, complaining of great distress. The petitioners stated, that there were 16,000 inhabitants in the town, 8,000 of whom were so destitute of food, clothing, or fuel, as to be dependent on a subscription for their relief, the amount of which did not exceed 25 l. a-week, and which

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would not afford more than three farthings per week to each. They also added, that the Corporation of Drogheda were in possession of lands belonging to certain charities, which produced 20,000 l. a-year, and yet they refused to appropriate any of that amount to the relief of the poor. They therefore prayed that means might be adopted for affording them some relief.

BOROUGH OF NEWARK—DUKE OF NEWCASTLE.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonrose to present a Petition from the inhabitants of the borough of Newark. The subject involved a question of great importance, and he therefore hoped for the patient indulgence of the House to the few observations which he should feel it his duty to make on it. He regretted that the subject had not fallen into other hands, and the more so as it would be his duty, before he sat down, to state certain matters inculpating the conduct of a noble Lord, who, though he could not be said to be unrepresented in that House, was not present to defend himself. If the charges which he had to make on behalf of the petitioners should receive a sufficient answer by those who might address the House on the part of the noble Duke, it would give him great satisfaction to acknowledge his error, and to retract any thing in which he might find he had been misinformed. He hoped the House would do its duty by supporting the Motion which he intended to found upon the petition, as that Motion would rest, not so much upon the inculpation of the noble Lord as on general principles. He would now briefly state the substance of the Petition. The borough of Newark consisted of 2,000 houses, and about 10,000 inhabitants. Considerable property in the town was possessed by the Duke of Newcastle, to whom 200 houses belonged. Large portions of property, in some instances amounting to eighty or ninety houses, belonging to other individuals. The property belonging to the Duke in the town was not of itself sufficient to give him a commanding influence in the town, though he held the manor with copyhold right, the market, and the tolls on that and the bridges. His principal influence was derived from being the lessee of a portion of land, amounting to 960 acres, which formed a sort of belt surrounding the town for about three fourths of its circumference. This property included the land in the
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neighbourhood of the principal roads near the town, and was of great importance to the occupant. He wished he could, consistently with the forms of the House, lay a map of this property before it, for that would convey a more correct notion of its nature and value than any verbal description that he could give. In the case of Newark we had an example which but too aptly illustrated the truth that the greatest blessings might be so perverted as to become a source of calamity to those for whose benefit and advantage they were intended. That was in the nominal possession of that inestimable constitutional privilege which ought to have been imparted to Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds: but what had the privilege in which it was thus preeminently favoured produced? By the genius of the Constitution it was designed for the happiness of the possessors, but it had been so perverted as to prove fruitful of misery, suffering, and persecution. What was the reason of this? The land which he had described as a belt surrounding the town was held by the Duke of Newcastle as the lessee of the Crown, and he used all the influence it bestowed to convert Newark into a close borough. Was this to be endured by a free people; was it to be permitted by the British Legislature, when the means of redress were at once within their reach? Would they suffer this immense power, which had been obtained from the Crown, but more correctly speaking, from the people themselves, to be turned to the disadvantage of the people? Assuredly they would not. Let them only for a moment reflect how his Grace the Duke of Newcastle lorded it over their fellow-subjects the inhabitants of this town. It was the natural progress of prosperous towns, and such was Newark, to branch out in all directions. That town carried on a flourishing trade in malt, which made large premises indispensable. But at Newark, did a farmer want a barn for his husbandry, did a mechanic require a workshop for his labour, did a cottager apply for shelter for his family, he must have recourse to the underlings of the Crownlessee; he must pay the highest monopoly price for the tenement he sought to obtain, and sell soul and body besides in consideration of his purchase. He must from that hour abjure all his rights as a citizen and a subject, he must thenceforward forswear all political power, all moral volition as a

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sentient rational being, and give his entire confidence and co-operation to the proprietor of the borough and arbiter of his fate. In saying this, he did not mean for a moment to impugn the just and natural influence of a landlord over his tenant. That influence originated in condescension on the one hand, and gratitude on the other; the landlord gave protection and encouragement, and the tenant, in return, owed him deference and respect; but he appealed to that House whether the power arrogated in the instance before them did not rather resemble the tyranny of the slave-owner than the proper influence of a British landlord? The facts on which the petition was founded were these:—In the course of September last year it happened that the individual who had been Member for Newark lost his seat for not voting according to the dictation of his patron, and in consequence, a vacancy occurred in the representation of that borough. Indeed, the gentleman he alluded to was particularly unfortunate in honourably asserting his independence, as he was likewise deprived of his office under government, because he exercised the same privilege of judging for himself in a division on which his vote was expected by the Adminstration. (The hon. Member alluded to Sir W. H. Clinton.) The result, however, as he already stated, was a vacancy in Newark, and the individual sent by the Crown-lessee to the electors (the present hon. Member for Newark) was duly returned. To that hon. Gentleman he did not mean to impute any impropriety whatever; but it was needless to disguise the facts, that he came amongst the inhabitants of Newark as the nominee of the Duke of Newcastle; that the parties who supported him had been canvassed by the Duke's rent-receiver, and that he was in all respects rather the representative of the Crown-lessee than the chosen of his ostensible constituents. The inhabitants of the borough, it appears, were of opinion that they had a right in this matter to consult their own inclinations, and selected a gentleman at least equally fitted to take charge of their interests,—an assertion which, he trusted, he might advance without any disparagement to the hon. Member who at present represented them. A contest followed, during which every possible means of intimidation had been employed towards the electors. Intimidation and menace were unfortunately not novelties in the
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history of Newark. In 1796 and 1826 efforts were made to obtain for the town its constitutional privileges, and the vengeance then taken by the Crown-lessee might sufficiently serve to show the refractory electors what tender mercies might be expected by those who should in 1829 unsuccessfully assert the privilege imparted by the Constitution. Nevertheless, in the face of these examples, and despite these convictions, 587 electors were found independent and public-spirited enough to vindicate their right of choosing a representative for themselves; but the result had been, as the House was aware, that their attempt was unsuccessful, and the gentleman nominated by the Crown-lessee was ultimately returned. The noble Duke, in his opinion, might have rested satisfied with the result of that election, with having been the means of returning a representative who was opposed to the interests, or at all events to the inclinations, of a large portion of the inhabitants. But the parties who had incurred his displeasure better knew with whom they had to deal. Although his vengeance seemed for a time dormant, it turned out to be an assumed slumber, like that of the cat before she darts upon her prey. As soon as the whole business of the election was over, and the time had gone by when that House could interfere, every person who had presumed to vote for Mr. Serjeant Wilde, and possessed land under the Duke, was served eventually with a notice to quit. But he was not quite correct in this statement as he remembered that one of these voters proved to be an exception, and he particularly requested the attention of the House to the fact, as it showed the avaricious spirit which instigated the actors throughout the whole of these discreditable proceedings. The elector in question went to the office of the agent of the Crown-lessee, and stated in his vindication, that he had voted for the obnoxious candidate by mistake. To which excuse the official dignitary replied, "Then your notice to quit was a mistake also." Did he but possess the eloquent powers of the present hon. Member for Newark, who had often in that House pathetically described the sufferings of his miserable countrymen, he would endeavour (and even then very inadequately) to depict the misfortunes of those poor outcasts whose meet had been banishment for the conscientious and manly declaration of

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their honest opinion. They were driven forth with their helpless families, the infirm and the aged, the infant and the female, from the home in which all their affections had been centred, which was endeared to them by their earliest associations, and in which they hoped to spend their last days. Neither merit nor respectable character, nor duration of service, could save them from this ungenerous and vindictive persecution. They were not accused of being in arrear of rent, of being bad tenants, or insolvent,— they were not charged with being guilty of improper conduct, of general immorality, or dissolute life; but they did worse than all this in the eyes of Him whom they had offended,—they were guilty of that most unpardonable sin,— the assertion of the right belonging to every freeman in this free state,—they refused to prostitute their votes at the good pleasure of their landlord. The delinquency and the punishment were not, however, wholly unobserved by the public. A meeting was called for the purpose of considering of a remedy, and offering the combined representations and remonstrances of those who suffered and those who witnessed the proceedings by which they had been aggrieved. To his Grace the Duke of Newcastle a letter, most respectfully worded, had been sent, inviting him to attend: and a similar communication had been sent to the hon. Member for Newark. That hon. Gentleman did not think proper to attend, nor was it for him to question the propriety of the course which he had pursued with reference to his own constituents. But the Duke of Newcastle sent an answer, in which he justified, or pretended to justify his conduct towards the electors of Newark. And what were those grounds of justification? Was he dissatisfied with their moral conduct, or their impunctuality with his rent-collector? No such thing: he never affected any excuse or exculpation of the kind, but boldly and unequivocally declared, that he considered their franchises as his property. There was neither round-about phraseology nor shuffling sophistry employed: it was a plain straightforward assertion, however little in conformity with the declared resolution of that House; viz. that it is a violation of the privileges of Parliament for Peers of the realm to interfere in elections: the noble writer boldly asserted that he "had
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a right to do what he pleased with his own." That right, however, he most solemnly denied, and most earnestly protested in the name of the Commons of England against any such assumption. He was prepared to canvass the principle, and would readily undertake to extinguish it by fair argument. The power which the noble Duke possessed, and thus openly exulted in, had been obtained through the instrumentality of Government, who, he trusted, would at length be induced to turn to the benefit of the people that which the noble Peer had so painfully perverted to their disadvantage. It was much to be regretted that, previous to the assumption and exercise of such a power some communication had not taken place between the noble Duke and his respected nominee, the hon. Member for Newark, as that Gentleman would have inculcated a very different doctrine. He would take the liberty to read to the House a single sentence from a celebrated work of the hon. Member, which was peculiarly apposite to the case before them, and expressed an opinion quite in accordance with the feelings which he himself had always entertained upon the same subject. The passage he alluded to ran as follows:— "The usual justification of those proprietors—' May we not do what we will with our own?—I shall not pause here to discuss, but will merely observe, that it has been made the apology for more cruelty and oppression than all the other excuses put together." In this passage the hon. Member for Newark had expressed all that he wished to express, and spared him the odious task of speaking in due terms of the conduct he had described to the House. Having then stated the nature of the petition he should proceed to state his own motives for desiring that it might be referred to a select committee. He wished that the allegations which it contained might be thoroughly examined in order that an address to the Crown should be presented, praying that the Duke's lease, which had been so wrongfully employed to interfere with the elective franchise, might not be hereafter renewed. It involved a severe pecuniary loss to the country; but, what was incalculably more important, it affected the constitutional character of the representation, and violated this most sacred institution of a free people, perverting it till it became a source of private profit, public profligacy,

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or political persecution. The Commons had made a bargain by which the revenues of the Crown-lands brought in much less than their value to the public purse, but they must be unfaithful stewards indeed, if they did not address the Crown not to allow 960 acres to be disposed of henceforward for the inadequate returns which it had hitherto received. The property consisted, as he understood, besides the land, in quit-rents, copyholds, and influence over public charities. The first lease of this great property was granted in 1760 to the Earl of Lincoln by the Duke of Newcastle, the then prime Minister, and for what rent did the House suppose? He would allow a long time for conjecture, and he was sure nobody would conjecture right. It was neither 1,000 l. per annum, nor the half of that sum, nor yet 100 l., but literally the extortionate rent of 36 l. a year. The lease was renewed in 1806, nine years after it had expired, and the fine exacted was no more than the nine years rent which had not been paid. The rent since 1806 had been 2,060 l. a year, which, in itself, fully attested the advantages enjoyed by the noble duke's predecessors, when the aforesaid 36 l. was so long the consideration. But the present rent, he believed, was much inferior to what it should be, as the Duke of Newcastle was said to receive 3,500 l., or at least 3,000 l. a year from the property. Thus the pecuniary loss was a point worthy of their attention, even setting aside the fact that the property was yearly increasing in value and importance; but that was nothing compared to the loss of liberty and independence by the people. The Crown lessee never gave a lease for more than a year, in order to keep the voters completely within his power; were he to act otherwise, they might with impunity vote against him. Not long since, four acres of land, the property of Lord Middleton, were sold in the neighbourhood of Newark, and brought 4,000 l., 1,000 l. an acre! This fact might give them a just conception of the general value of all the adjoining property. Why was the Crown land not sold to the highest bidder? He might be answered, that the lease had not yet expired; but were not the reversions available for sale? Instead of renewing the Crown lease, how much more eligible would it prove to sell the lands altogether. A greater pecuniary value would be obtained for the public, and the parties now
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suffering under such intolerable persecution would be relieved from the degrading political subjection to which they had been reduced. But by following and persisting in the course heretofore so unhappily pursued, the Government would in the first instance prevent the people from obtaining the means of extending their buildings, and of increasing in prosperity; and in the next, it would unavoidably permit the present possession to be converted to the pecuniary injury of those who had property in the neighbourhood. Lastly, if the Commons suffered it, they would violate the genius of the Constitution, by allowing the Crown to become instrumental in empowering the aristocracy to return a Member to Parliament. Should the Government renew the lease, it would necessarily thereby continue injustice; but if it sold the property, it would as necessarily bring money to the people, vindicate the principle of representation, and assert the dearest political privilege of a British subject. He would move that the present Petition should be referred, not to a Committee of Privilege, but to a Select Committee, his object being to have the allegations which it contained minutely and circumstantially inquired into. At the same time he most distinctly disavowed an intention to hold up any individual to public obloquy, as the interests of truth and justice were the only objects which he had in view. He sought no vengeance—he had no personal pique to gratify. He only called on the Legislature to prevent the recurrence of a most grievous evil, to vindicate the Crown from the obloquy with which it had been, to a certain degree, mixed up, and to support the dignity of a Constitutional Representation. It was his intention afterwards to move an humble Address to his Majesty, in order to obtain a promise from Government that the lease of the Crown lands should not be renewed on the same terms as hitherto, if it were to be renewed upon any terms whatever. The hon. Member concluded by presenting the following Petition:—
"To the Right hon. the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled.—The humble Petition of the undersigned Inhabitants of the Town of Newark-upon-Trent, in the County of Nottingham.
"Showeth,—That Newark is a Borough Town, containing two thousand houses, or thereabouts, with a population of nearly ten thousand; and

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the resident inhabitants paying scot and lot have the right of voting in the election of two Members to serve in Parliament for the said Borough:
"That the town possesses considerable commercial advantages, and from its being surrounded by the best markets for grain, and from having the facilities which good water carnage affords, it has, during the last few years, very greatly increased in wealth and population, and is become one of the principal towns in the kingdom in the manufacture of malt and of meal, largely supplying Manchester, Sheffield, and other manufacturing towns with those commodities:
"That there are not appertinent to, or in the neighbourhood of, Newark, any town lands or open pastures for the accommodation of the freemen and other inhabitants of the town.
"That his Grace the Duke of Newcastle possesses a lease from his late Majesty (granted by the advice of his Privy Council) of the manor of Newark, with all the quit rents and copyhold rents, and of the markets, the bridges, the tolls, and fairs therein, and of the rights of fishing in the river Trent, and the rivers and streams within the manor; and also of several houses situate within the town, together with upwards of nine hundred and sixty acres of land, lying-in and contiguous to the Borough, and almost encircling the same, the whole being within the township of Newark, and the several parishes of Averham, Stoke, Balderton, and Farndon:
"That the family of his Grace first became possessed of the said property in the first year of his late Majesty (1760), when a lease was granted by the Crown; which, by the recital therein contained, appears to have been granted by the advice of the then Duke of Newcastle (who was at that time First Lord of the Treasury) to the then Earl of Lincoln, he having married a sister of his Grace:
"That in the year 1815, a lease of the said property was granted to the present Duke of Newcastle, for a term which will expire in the year 1836:
"That the houses and lands comprised in the said lease are occupied by tenants at will, and the land (with the exception of two of the most distant farms, held by influential families) is let in small allotments to persons residing, and having votes and interest, within the Borough, as yearly tenants; and although the same is let at what would, under other circumstances, be deemed full average rents, yet, from the exclusive possession by the Duke of the whole of such land, and from the peculiar pursuits of the principal trading population, he is enabled, by means of the great accommodation it affords, to exercise, and he does actually exercise, an absolute control over the votes of a great portion of the inhabitants:
"That the political control of the Borough is of much more value to his Grace than any advantage he could derive from the improvement of the Crown lands; and, therefore, in order to preserve such control, the said Crown
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lands have been so managed (by being only let by the year) as necessarily to prevent their improvement:
"That the evil of such system has not been limited to the injury of the Crown lands, but has extended its pernicious influence to the town, as the lands form a complete girdle round the town, and the system referred to necessarily prevents those local improvements which the increasing wealth and advantageous position of Newark would otherwise give rise to; and your Petitioners humbly show, that, but for the contractive operation of this system, the growing population of Newark would naturally have spread itself over a considerable portion of that part of the Crown land which immediately adjoins the town; whereas, the poorer class of the people have been compelled to reside in confined and unwholesome courts and alleys (a large portion of the tenements in which belong to the Duke's private estate, and are thus enhanced in nominal value), while the more opulent inhabitants are deprived of those essential comforts to which their situation entitles them, and of those conveniences which their increasing commerce imperiously demands; and even the limited accommodation at present afforded to some of the inhabitants, by a temporary and uncertain occupation of the land, they can only obtain by the surrender of their political independence, and by what his Grace terms "entire confidence and a grateful co-operation" with him in his political views, and in the election of those Members for the borough who are nominated by himself:
"That although your Petitioners admit, that the possession by his Grace the Duke of Newcastle of the property hereinbefore mentioned as forming his own private estate would naturally confer upon him a large portion of that influence which ordinarily results from the relation of landlord and tenant, yet your Petitioners humbly represent, that it would be wholly insufficient to control the election of Members of the said borough, unaided by the enormous unconstitutional power over the voters, which his Grace has acquired by the possession of the Crown lands, and by his system of managing the same:
"Your Petitioners humbly show to your honourable House, that such Crown lands are of very great value, a large portion thereof abutting on the principal roads adjoining to the densely-populated parts of Newark, and being applicable to building purposes, and, in point of situation, of equal value to contiguous land (also within the borough), which has realized upwards of 800 l. per acre; and your Petitioners represent, that even such part thereof as would not, from its situation, be at present in request as building land, would find ready tenants or purchasers at very considerable prices, were it the pleasure of the Crown to let, or otherwise dispose of, the same in allotments suited to the increasing wants of this improving town.
"Your Petitioners further humbly show, that

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his grace the Duke of Newcastle does not occupy, and has not, during the whole period of the lease, occupied, or held in his own hands, any part of the said Crown lands: and that he has not, by building or otherwise, improved their value; and that the trifling improvements which have been made thereon have been wholly made by the tenants and actual occupiers, who have no security whatever for continuing to hold the same, and who are thus further bound to vole according to the dictation of the Duke, for fear of losing as well the land they hold as their outlay for improvements thereon:
"That, in the month of February last, Sir William Henry Clinton, who had been returned under the influence of the Duke to sit for this borough, accepted the Stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds, when Michael Thomas Sadler, esq. who had previously been unknown to the inhabitants, became a candidate for the vacant seat, and was taken round the town by the agent of the Duke and receiver of his rents, and introduced to his Grace's tenants as the successor of the retired Member:
"That at that particular period there were many momentous questions pending in both Houses of Parliament, deeply affecting the tranquillity and prosperity of a large portion of his Majesty's subjects; and his Grace the Duke of Newcastle, as your Petitioners have been informed, was most anxious for a dissolution of Parliament, in order, as he represented, that the wishes of the people might be ascertained from the return of the Members to your honourable House:
"That Mr. Serjeant Wilde likewise became a candidate to represent this Borough at the same election:
"That Mr. Sadler was returned by the Mayor as duly elected:
"That the return of Mr. Sadler was obtained by means of the prevailing belief, founded upon the experience of former elections, that such of the Duke's tenants as should vote against his Grace's nominee would be expelled from their tenancies; and many of the voters who polled for Mr. Sadler avowed that but for the fear of such result they would have polled for the other candidate:
"That although many of the Duke's tenants, under the influence before-mentioned, did vote for Mr. Sadler, yet there were many others who, choosing to exercise their elective franchise independently, gave their votes to the opposing candidate:
"That since the said election, every one of the tenants of his Grace who so voted for Mr. Serjeant Wilde has received notice to quit his holding, whether the same was house or land; and whether it constituted a part of the estate of the Crown or the private property of his Grace:
"That a large portion of the electors, as well of those who had, as of those who had not, received notice to quit their lands and houses, convened a public meeting of the inhabitants, to
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take into consideration the proper measures to be adopted, justly deeming the proceedings of the Duke's agents not only injurious to the character and prosperity of the town, but calculated to destroy every vestige of political independence within the Borough.
"The persons concerned in convening the said meeting deemed it expedient, as well as respectful, to inform his Grace by letter of their intention to hold the same, to announce its object, and to invite his attendance thereat; to which his Grace replied, neither denying the act of giving such notices, nor disavowing the motive, but justifying the same, upon a claim of a right 'to do what he would with his own.'
"Your Petitioners do, however, humbly submit to your honourable House, that, whatever right, or rather whatever power his Grace may have 'to do what he will with his own' private estate, he has not the right, and ought to be deprived of the power, of using the property he holds as lessee of the Crown to the injury of the Borough, the oppression of the inhabitants; and that the said lease ought not to be renewed, by reason that for election purposes his Grace has used the same in a manner that has diminished the present and reversionary value of the public property; impeded the progress of local improvement; repressed the growing prosperity of the town, and controlled the reasonable comforts and enjoyments of the inhabitants; and further, that by the possession of such lease, his Grace has been enabled to keep alive, from year to year, the most odious distinctions, and to foment feelings of dissension and party spirit; and finally, he has employed the power it conferred to overawe the inhabitants, control the election, and thus secure the return of his own Members to serve in your honourable House; all which facts your Petitioners are ready, and pray leave, to prove at the Bar of your honourable House, or in such other manner as to its wisdom may seem meet.
"Your Petitioners do therefore most humbly pray your honourable House to take into consideration the matter of this Petition, and to address his Majesty, that no further lease may be granted to his Grace; but that the Lords Commissioners of his Majesty's Land Revenues may be directed to sell or let the same in suitable lots, whereby the revenue will be increased, the property improved, the town enriched, and the inhabitants restored to the free and independent exercise of the inviolable right of electing Members of their own choice to represent the Borough of Newark in your honourable House."
Lord Lowthersaid, he must declare in the outset that the allegations in the petition, as he had been able to collect them, if not gross misstatements were at least perversions of fact. He should not think it requisite to go through the speech of the hon. Member in detail, but would rest

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satisfied with noticing two or three of his observations. Admitting the number of the population and of the Houses to be correct, in some of the other averments there was obviously a want both of caution and of accuracy. The municipal revenue of the town, including all its tolls and rates, was certainly much smaller than it would appear had been inferred. By a charter in the reign of Charles 2nd the toll on the bridge, averaging 80 l. a year, was made over to the Mayor and Corporation; but the Corporation of Nottingham was entitled to one third. The nine hundred and sixty acres of Crown-lands mentioned were not in the immediate neighbourhood of the town as represented, but in reality would be found scattered about through the adjacent villages to a considerable extent. By the last determination of the House, those householders had a right of voting who paid scot and lot. Notwithstanding all that had been said about the tyranny and persecution which the tenants had to undergo, it was rather remarkable that the Crown had but twelve houses and twenty-six cottages at the renewal of the lease. This fact, he apprehended, would seem to warrant a conclusion very different from that which the hon. Member wished the House to draw. He could not help expressing his surprise that the hon. Gentleman's sight should have been so bewildered in the office of Woods and Forests as to lead him to suppose that there was a girdle of Crown-land immediately about the town, for he would have found, had he looked a little closer, that three sides were open. There were three or four proprietors in the neighbourhood of the town who had property to a larger amount there than that of the Crown. What had fallen from the hon. Member would induce the House to suppose that under the last lease, and up to 1815, the tenant to the Crown only paid 36 l. a year; the fact was, that the lease was renewed in 1806, and the rent was then fixed at 2,200 l. a-year, although the actual receipt was only 2,026 l., but in addition a fine of 2,500 l. was also paid. In 1815, in consequence of a small property falling into the possession of the Crown, the lease was surrendered with a view to facilitate business, but with an understanding that it was not to be extended to the advantage of the lessee. At the same time he believed that as high a rent was now
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obtained from the land as it was worth. It was alleged that his Majesty's Government were interested in supporting one candidate more than another, relying in return upon his support in that House. Now it turned out that the Gentleman supported by the Duke of Newcastle did not generally support the Government. He had only to add, that he wished all the circumstances of the case to come before the House previous to its coming to any decision. Acting upon this view of the question, he would not oppose the petition in its then stage, but should reserve his observations on its merits to a future occasion.
Mr. F. Clintonbegged leave, as one acquainted with all the details of the transactions which had given birth to the present petition, to say a few words in explanation of those transactions. He confidently assured the House, that there was never submitted to its notice a petition more full of misrepresentations, and of most unfounded insinuations, than that just presented by the hon. Member for Dover. The noble Lord who presided over the Woods and Forests, had so fully and satisfactorily explained the circumstances connected with the original granting and subsequent renewal of the Crown-land lease held by the Duke of Newcastle, that he need not say another word on that part of the subject. He would merely ask the hon. Member for what purpose he had entered into a statement of that lease having been granted in the first instance in the time of George 2nd, to the Earl of Lincoln, the nephew of the then First Lord of the Treasury, unless for the purpose of insinuating something by which he perhaps might hope to win a cheer? The hon. Member was in error as to the facts connected with the last renewal of the Duke of Newcastle's lease, which took place in 1806, and not in 1815, as the hon. Member had stated. The noble Duke's rent on that occasion was raised 2,000 l. per annum,—a sum which he firmly believed was, all things considered, a fair rental. It was stated in the petition that the Duke of Newcastle's tenants at Newark were all tenants at will; that for the purpose of securing a preponderant political influence at the election for that borough, the noble Duke had let his tenements out by the year, making the renewal of the next year's tenure dependent only on his single pleasure, Would it not be

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inferred from this statement that the Duke of Newcastle differed from all other landed proprietors, in the management of his property at Newark? What, however, was the fact? He appealed to every hon. Member at all acquainted with Nottingham and the adjacent counties, whether all the property held there, whether of land or houses, by tenants like the Duke of Newcastle's at Newark, was not, like his, held only from year to year, renewable at pleasure? Was it, therefore, fair to omit this fact, and by that omission to insinuate that the noble Duke had, in the leasing of his lands and houses at Newark, departed from the usual system under which lands and houses were leased in Nottinghamshire, and, he believed he might add, in most of the midland counties? It was next stated in the petition, that the noble Duke's property circled the town of Newark in such a manner as to prevent the erection of any new house beyond the present precincts, but at the Duke's pleasure, so as to compel the inhabitants to dwell in narrow, filthy, unwholesome courts and alleys,—that, in fact, the Duke's Crown property was a kind of wall round the town of Newark, of which he possessed the only gates and keys. The noble Lord who had last addressed the House had shown how unfounded was this mis-statement; he therefore would only say, in addition to what had fallen from the noble Lord, that the Duke's property did not immediately adjoin the town of Newark, nor did any Crown-lands leased by any other landed proprietor, nor any other property or estate of the Duke of Newcastle. Nay, he would go further and state, that so far from the "accommodation land" of that town at all belonging to the Duke, all the accommodation land in the neighbourhood was the property of other families, with one of which the right hon. Gentleman who filled the chair in that House was nearly connected. Then with respect to the assertion that the inhabitants, from want of room, were compelled to dwell in close unwholesome residences, he could assure the House that there was not a town in England of the size of Newark so over-built, though it was stated that no land for building could be procured for less than 1,000 l. per acre. It was true that some years ago a small tract immediately contiguous to the town was sold at that high rate, but twelve months had not
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elapsed till land possessing equal advantages for building was put up for sale without obtaining a single bidder, so completely was the building market in Newark, so to speak, overstocked. Was it not, then, evident, after these statements, that the petition was a mere election affair? Indeed, this was quite evident from the manner in which the successful candidate at the late election was alluded to in it. The hon. Member was spoken of as a perfect stranger to the people of Newark. Would it not, he asked, be supposed from this statement that the learned Serjeant (Wilde), who had opposed the hon. Member, was one long connected by ties of residence or birth with Newark? that in fact his only object in the contest was to rescue his native borough from the disgrace of being represented by a perfect stranger? But what was the fact? Why, that the learned Serjeant, he believed, was never in Newark or even Nottinghamshire in his life, till he went there on his late electioneering adventure. On that occasion the learned Serjeant posted down to Newark and favoured the electors with divers eloquent speeches-; but his hon. opponent was returned by a large majority. After all his trouble the learned Serjeant was naturally unwilling to abandon his pretension to the representation of the borough, and of course omitted no opportunity of making himself popular. An occasion presented itself, which he was too skilful an advocate not to endeavour at least to take advantage of. It happened that on the Michaelmas after the late election the Duke of Newcastle gave some of his tenants at Newark, notice to quit: but the hon. Member for Dover, not content with stating the fact, added that the noble Duke did not give this notice till the time for an election petition had elapsed. In answer to this imputation, he thought it would be sufficient to remind the House, that the noble Duke could not give notice till the next half-year audit had arrived; so that the charge of his having awaited the termination of the period within which a petition complaining of undue influence should be presented, fell to the ground. Well, the notices, as he had stated, were served; and the occasion of popularity was eagerly snatched at by the learned Serjeant, at whose suggestion a public meeting was called of his partisans and the tenants of the Duke of Newcastle who had received

1093
notice to quit. In the hand bills for the meeting it was stated that not less than 200 families had been turned out of their residences by the Duke, for no other cause than voting according to the dictates of their conscience; while the fact was, that but forty notices were served altogether. To that meeting, which he begged leave to assure the House was chiefly composed of the lowest rabble of Newark, an invitation was sent to the Duke of Newcastle, and the chief topic of the several speeches which were delivered on the occasion were attacks on his Grace's contumacy, for not having accepted the invitation. Was it not evident, that if a heavier charge lay against him it would have absorbed the attention of the speakers? and was it not evident, that if the learned Serjeant had any other ground, (he being grievously disappointed in not attaining his object), to question the validity of his opponent's success, he would have advanced it? in fact, would have presented a petition complaining of the hon. Member's return, instead of merely treating his partisans to long speeches. The learned Serjeant knew too well that speeches would not suffice in themselves, however eloquent: hence the present petition, the prayer of which was perhaps unexampled in its modesty: it simply asked the House to advise the Crown to— what?—merely not to renew the lease of the Duke of Newcastle. Really this was a little too much. He believed it was quite new for Parliament to be culled upon to address his Majesty as to whom the Crown-lands should be let or should not be let. He was inclined to think that he was right, for if he were not, he asked what would be the next step of interference with the exercise of the royal prerogative, unless to fell his Majesty, not only whom he should not let the Crown-lands to, but to whom he should, from the confidence which the House of Commons had in the one, and not in the other? In fact, such a proposition, he was convinced, had no parallel in the Constitution, save in the times of the Commonwealth. The whole matter, he begged to assure the House, sprang from a disappointment at an election, and should therefore be treated altogether as an election petition. The hon. presenter of it disclaimed any wish to interfere between landlord and tenant, so that there existed no ground whatever for the House's en-
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tertaining it. The hon. Member, however, said, that though he disclaimed all interference between landlord and tenant, he thought it right to present the petition, with a view to preventing abuses of the great lessees of Crown-lands. Now what was the fact with respect to the number of Crown-land tenants of the Duke of Newcastle that had voted for the learned Serjeant at the late election? Why but seven voted for the learned Serjeant, and but seventy-four altogether for his hon. opponent, out of 1,388, which constituted his gross poll. Had these seventy-four votes been given for the learned Serjeant, would, he confidently asked, a word have been heard of the present petition? The hon. Member concluded by stating, that he would oppose the hon. Member's Motion for a Committee, as he considered it would be both unusual and unconstitutional.
Sir F. Burdettsaid, he could not subscribe to the doctrine advanced by the hon. Member who had just addressed the House, that referring the petition under consideration to a select, committee would be either unprecedented or unconstitutional. He was not wanting in respect to the hon. Member or to the noble Lord who had preceded him; but still he thought that the House was bound not to make their statements, or the statements of any individual, the ground for not referring a petition like the present to a select committee. He said, the House was bound to determine for itself how far the allegations of the petitioners were or were not borne out by fact, and this it could best do by the proposed inquiry. "But before I enter," said the hon. Baronet, "into a detail of the grounds on which I shall vote for referring the petition before the House to a select committee, I beg leave to say a very few words on a subject, which personally affects myself, and which, though not directly connected with that before the House, is not, perhaps, altogether out of place. The noble Duke who has been so frequently alluded to in the course of the present, discussion, has done me the honour of addressing me a letter, with reference to a statement which he charges me with having made in this House a few evenings since. The letter to which I allude, was addressed to me through the medium of one of the public journals. I by no means complain of this circumstance; indeed, I have no complaint to make of

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the letter itself, for it was as agreeable a one as perhaps an idle man could desire; it required no answer. I say that it did not call upon me to write an answer, for any proposition that might appear to require explanation in the beginning, was sure to have another refuting it at the end. In fact, no better answer could be given, so far as the matter of discussion was concerned, than was contained in the Letter itself. There is one point, however, on which I should be extremely sorry that, any misconception should exist in the mind of the noble Duke. I should be extremely sorry that the noble Duke should believe that I had applied to him personally any opprobrious terms. He charges me with having designated him as a "notorious boroughmonger." Now I did not apply this term, or any one similarly harsh to him. In fact I do not, under the present constitution of this House, I beg leave to say, consider boroughmongering as a great evil, but as a palliation of an evil. As this House is at present constituted, I repeat that I consider the purchase of a seat effects some good, by admitting men of talent, who under our present vicious system, could not otherwise obtain that seat, to an opportunity of devoting their services to the benefit of the country. I think it necessary to state my belief of tills one palliating influence which our present corrupt system of election affords as a set-off against its numberless evils. Entertaining these opinions, therefore, I could not consistently apply an opprobrious epithet to the noble Duke for an act which I do not consider, raider the existing state of our Representation, to be one of un-mingled evil. The noble Duke says, that at the time the transaction took place, I on a former evening alluded to, he was quite a boy, in fact, an infant in law and therefore could not have been a party to it. Now, though somewhat older than the noble Duke at the time, I certainly was young in life myself, and, in fact, was as little a party to the affair as he possibly could have been; indeed, I did not desire a seat in Parliament at all,—there was nothing I thought less about at the time, and should, had I followed the bias of my own feelings, have been still innocent of any concern in the matter. But I was induced to acquiesce in the wishes of my friends, and without any interference whatever on my part was told, one day, that I was returned for Boroughbridge in Yorkshire. So that,
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of the two parties to the transaction, if the noble infant in law was wholly innocent, I, the other party, in point of fact, was equally uncontaminated. The noble Duke, then, was not the only Simon Pure in the business. The matter was arranged, as such matters usually are under similar circumstances, by other parties; a sum of money was received on the part of the noble Duke, and paid on mine, and I became the independent Member for the borough of Boroughbridge. I am bound to say, that the sum which procured me my seat was not by any means unusually large, all things considered—it amounted to 4,000 l.: and for that I was guaranteed for six years, no matter if a dissolution took place in the mean time. This, I repeat, all things considered, was by no means a high price; and I beg leave to state, that when I said I purchased my seat from the Duke of Newcastle, I did not mean this or that member of the house of Pelham, but the Duke of Newcastle, whoever he was, of the time being, the proprietor of the borough of Boroughbridge, for which I first sat in this House as a Representative. I stated that that Duke of Newcastle was a trader in boroughs, and I quoted my own case as one in point. I find that my own case was not the only one; for, if I am not very much mistaken, the father of the present Member for Dorsetshire succeeded me in the very same way, by purchase, as Representative of the Duke of Newcastle's borough of Boroughbridge, thus proving the truth of my general assertion. There was a circumstance connected with Mr. Portman's purchase that appears to me worth mentioning: he did not make the stipulation which was made for me, of being guaranteed a seat for a certain number of years, though a dissolution should take place in the interim, and the Duke of Newcastle, to his honour be it stated, returned a part of the purchase-money, according to a valuation of the time for which he actually sat as Member. I therefore, in my statement of the transaction a few evenings since, could not. have meant to direct my observations personally against the present Duke of Newcastle. My objection was not to the individual, but to the system; and be the; noble Duke a borough-monger, a borough-master, or a borough-forcer, or quocunque nomine gaudet, I stated the fact as I have now repeated it, with a view to exposing the evils of our present corrupt system of

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Representation in their undisguised nakedness. The blame, if blame there is, I say, does not he with the Duke of Newcastle, but in the system: the blame lies with this House, which is not what it ought to be, the House of Commons of England." The hon. Baronet proceeded next to argue that the clear and irresistible statement of the hon. Member for Dover made the necessity of a Committee of Inquiry into the allegations of the petition convincing to, he thought, every one who had heard it. It was impossible to adopt the recommendation of the hon. Member for Aldborough (Mr. F. Clinton), and treat the petition as an election one, that had been presented too late for the House to act upon it. He would not, indeed he could not, say whether its statements would be borne out by facts; but he contended that it was due to the electors of Newark, to the noble Duke himself, and to the dignity of that House, that an investigation should be instituted into (he grounds of those statements. The petition he conceived to be a petition of privilege, that could not be overlooked without compromising the dignity of Parliament. It was one, he thought, of the most important nature in a constitutional point of view, that had ever come under the notice of that House: one, therefore, to which too much attention could not be given, and which he maintained could not be blinked in the manner recommended by the hon. Member for Aldborough. The electors of Newark complained that for the conscientious exercise of their duties they had been punished by a powerful individual, whom the law of the land and the law of Parliament forbade from using any influence whatsoever in the choice of Members of that House; and that complaint it was the bounden duty of hon. Members to inquire into, for the purpose of redress if it should appear well founded. The offence charged in the petition was not only a misdemeanor in the eye of the law, but a constitutional outrage in the eye of Parliament. There was no part of our common law more ancient than that which asserted the freedom of elections. Fiant electiones liberœ, procul e causa timoris was a common law maxim, which, if the allegations of the present petitioners were true, had been set at nought by one who came under the denomination of the 'haut homme' spoken of in Sir E. Coke's Comments on the First Westminster Sta-
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tute. The hon. Baronet contended, that the interference of the 'haut homme' in elections was a violation of not only our common law, but also of the ecclesiastical. One of the articles, he said, of the Articuli Ecclesiœ, expressly forbad all interference, whether by force or fraud, in the election of a church dignitary. The House, he thought, could not but entertain the petition as one deeply affecting its own privileges. It was bound to inquire how far the common-law maxim, which declared that elections should be free, had been violated by the Duke of Newcastle at Newark. He knew not, he repeated, whether the allegation of the petitioners would be supported by fact, but he thought that the House should determine the truth for themselves, uninfluenced by statements, however plausible, of any individual Member. If those allegations could be proved to be unfounded, so much the better for the noble Duke implicated, and so much the more satisfactory for the House inquiring. Indeed, he thought that no persons ought to be more zealous for referring the petition to a committee than the noble Duke's friends; and that in proportion to their confidence in the goodness of his cause. If, on inquiry, however, it should be found that the noble Duke had interfered unconstitutionally with the freedom of election, he trusted that the House, which was just now so energetic in its expression of indignation at the corrupt practices of the electors of East Retford, would assert its privileges, and with at least equal indignation punish the far higher offence of the Duke of Newcastle,—higher, he said, inasmuch as it was aggravated by the use of violence. If it were deemed expedient to punish the corrupt electors of East Retford for acts unaccompanied by violence, how much more should an aggression, in which force —actual violence —was the means employed to ensure its being successful, call down the arm of justice on the offender. We punished a pickpocket who stole our property with a cautious avoidal of every thing like force; but we punished still more him who robbed us by putting a loaded pistol to our head, and demanding our money: and this we did because we considered the force employed to be a great exaggeration of the crime.— And why not deal in the same way in punishing those who effect, through means of terror, an outrage upon our sacred right

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of choosing our Representatives in Parliament? It was impossible, he contended, for the House to persist in disfranchising East Retford, and to shut their eyes on the allegations of the present petition. He therefore should vote for its being referred to a Select Committee. By that means only could the ends of truth and justice be attained.
Mr. D. W. Harveysaid, that as he had already given notice of a motion for the 30th of March, to bring the state and value of the Crown-lands before the House, he would not trespass then long upon its attention. With the constitutional branch of the subject, which had been so ably dwelt upon by the hon. Baronet, he should have nothing to do; for indeed he saw no difference between the conduct of the Duke of Newcastle in turning his property where he could into borough-representation profit, and that, of any other noble Lord, or hon. Member, who indulged in similar speculations. Indeed, be should avoid studiously the hypocrisy of taking partial views with reference to such transactions. But it had been asked, did they mean to interfere with the rights of the Crown, or to dictate what ought to be the condition or disposition of the rents of the Crown? To this he would at once reply, Yes. This was not the property of the Crown—on the contrary, it had been bought at a high and perilous price for the people. Ever since the time of Queen Anne the people had been paying 600,000 l. or 700,000 l. a-year for property which had not returned them so many pence. The noble Lord had said that all discussion about the Crown-lands had better be reserved for the 30th of March, and the hon. Member said that there was no precedent since the time of the Commonwealth for this interference. Perhaps even at that period the hon. Member might be able to find that some precedents had occurred, which even (he most rampant loyalty could adopt. However, he would now give them a precedent quite in point, though not drawn from times so dangerous to monarchy. After King William had given nearly five-sixths of the county of Denbigh to the Earl of Portland, the House of Commons addressed his Majesty against the disposal of the public property in that sweeping way, and King William replied, that although he was under great obligations to the Earl of Portland, yet in obedience to the ex-
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pressed opinion of the House, he would endeavour to give him compensation in another manner, of which, perhaps, by the way, the descendants of that Peer might hear some further particulars on the 30th of March. The very circumstance of this petition coming as it did, ought to make the House happy to have an opportunity of dealing with such abuses as it described. And indeed he could show, by the letter of an inhabitant of Newark, who was totally unconcerned with noble or ignoble persons in these borough matters, that if this property were fairly put up to sale, it would produce at least 200,000 l.: he said that this was the valuation affixed by Mr. Fordyce. He had read the twenty reports of Mr. Fordyce, and in one of them he found a strong recommendation not to let on lease this kind of property in the immediate vicinity of great towns, for he foresaw the solid importance which would attach to such property. With reference to this particular branch of Crown property, it appeared to produce only 2,200 l. a-year, and yet it would, if fairly put up for sale, produce 200,000 l. The petitioners, therefore, complained with justice of these oppressive transactions, and were desirous of getting rid of the undue influence from which they sprung. He knew it was said, that suppose this sale took place, what would become of the persons holding unexpired leases for four or five years? Why, he would suggest to buy out the unexpired interest of the principal party. The noble person who could sell a seat for 4,000 l. would not, of course, object to sell a share of his freehold. Let them only pay him the value of his 2,200 l. a-year,—let them buy up this Duke, and the noble Lord opposite could have no difficulty in calculating what he was worth from his tables, after his great recent experience in the valuation of local interests under the St. Martin's Improvement Act. In fact, only let the Government once say that this property was to be put up for sale, and it would soon find 200 or 300 persons, at present enchained under the Duke's bonds, ready to buy up their shares to serve themselves, and also benefit the public. At all events, on the 30th of March he should be prepared to show the Members of that House such a train of abuses in this Crown property, as they were never before acquainted with; which, once named, must be remedied.
Mr. Sadlersaid, although this subject, in the event of a select committee being granted, would again come under discussion, yet he did not think that he should be discharging his duty if he suffered the present occasion to pass without endeavouring to explain the circumstances which had been so misrepresented. And in the first place he begged to ask the hon. Member for Dover whether the petition he had presented was carried at. a town's meeting, and whether the full notice of that meeting had been given.
Mr. P. Thompsonsaid, the petition was carried at a public meeting, convened after full notice, not only to all persons residing in the town, but one of the notices was even sent to the hon. Gentleman himself. The letter, however, which contained it, travelled in the most extraordinary way about the country, and it was not till long after, that the hon. Gentleman wrote a letter to the Chairman of the meeting, stating that he should have written before on this subject had the letter come to him sooner.
Mr. Sadlersaid, the hon. Gentleman, in his opinion, had not given a specific answer as to whether the petition emanated from a public meeting. It was of importance to ascertain this point, be-cause the principal part of the voters of Newark had already expressed their opinion of the petition, as he looked upon it to be, to all intents and purposes, an election petition. As the hon. Gentleman, in his answer to the question just put, had alluded, and somewhat facetiously, to the circumstances by which the notice was prevented reaching him (Mr. Sadler), he would say a word or two on that subject. All the travel that that letter had had was entirely owing to accidents; and had it reached him in time he should have had no hesitation in answering it in the negative; and he should have done this because he had already waited upon his constituents since his election, and when circumstances called him to a distant part of the country he did not see that he was bound to return to Newark, after having so recently visited it. Besides which, he said, that he should have had to appear before a committee, every one of whom had been his opponents at the election. The letter, however, as he had already stated, was delayed by some mistake; not that he made any accusation against the Post-master, But first it had gone to
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Leeds, and then to Manchester; then it was sent on to Gainsborough, by mistake; and after a delay at all these places he got the letter. He was afraid that he was wearying the attention of the House, by entering into all these details. He had now to make a few observations on the conduct of the hon. Gentleman himself, who, though he, no doubt, intended to be courteous, had not been very much so in this instance. It was not till the Wednesday that, he received notice from him that he intended to present the petition; and he certainly had expected that a copy of it would be sent to him; he, however, had had no opportunity of perusing it till that evening. That petition represented that he was not known in Newark: that, however, was not true, for he had been known to several influential persons there for many years. It was erroneous, it was false. He thought, as the petition had been concocted in London, sent to Newark to canvass for subscribers, and then back to town, he might have been furnished with a copy sooner, so as to have been able to make some inquiries on the subject, in which case he should have been able to approach the House with something beyond mere impressions. What had fallen from the noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests coincided with the impressions on his mind, and must, he thought, have destroyed the erroneous impressions sought to be conveyed by the petition. It certainly was not for the House to deal with leases that were already in existence; they could never admit an ex post facto law, such as the hon. Member for Colchester had proposed. There had been a great deal of gross exaggeration about the conduct of the noble individual to whom so much allusion had been made. If that were the proper place for explanation, he could state many circumstances infinitely to that nobleman's honour, he would only say that many of the attacks made on him were direct falsehoods. It had been asserted that he had discharged 200 of his tenants, which was known to be untrue, and though it had been immediately contradicted, it was afterwards reasserted and circulated through the whole kingdom. The few ejectments that had been made might be accounted for without looking to political motives, and might be easily defended, but he did not think that it was in Parliament, one of

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the first duties of which was to preserve inviolate the right of property, that he ought to justify that noble person, for exercising a right as he pleased, which was unquestioned in the meanest subject of the land. The cruelty of those ejectments was descanted on, but it was never said, that the noble Duke was a kind and liberal landlord, which he was known to be. At the same time he was at a loss to reconcile the cruelty of those ejectments, with the fact that Newark was over-built, that there were many tenements vacant, and many landlords who would be glad of tenants. Harsh, however, and injurious as were the accusations made in that House in reference to the ejectments, vituperation as gross was indulged in before any one of them had taken place. His learned opponent seemed at the time of the election and before, to have been ignorant, that there was another landlord in the place, and he levelled all his vituperative eloquence against the one noble individual. From the beginning to the close of the election, vituperation to the entire exclusion of every topic connected with public principles or national policy, was the sole business of his opponent. The object evidently aimed at was, to influence the tenantry of the noble person alluded to against him, simply because he was their landlord. Nothwithstanding this unfair proceeding, which was not more prosperous than it ought to be, he had been returned by a majority respectable both by its number and its property, so as to entitle him to say that he appeared there as the Representative of one of the most independent boroughs of the British Empire. The hon. Member for Dover had done him the honour to make a quotation from a book of his—a practice which he observed had of late been frequent in the House, though he should not repel it, did it make any impression favourable to humanity. What he felt himself called on to complain of was, that the hon. Member had quoted the passage without the context, and had he read the whole of it, the House would have seen that it was directed against those general clearances of the land, in obedience to certain doctrines about population, enforced by mercenary motives, which too often deprived many wretches at once of home and bread, and banished them from their country. He did not mean to disguise the fact, that he had the good wishes of the noble person already alluded to,
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but he also had the good wishes of many other noble and hon. Gentlemen connected with Newark. He had endeavoured to obtain the good will of the landed proprietors, and he had been successful. He had been honoured by the support of several ancient and honourable families seated in that neighbourhood, and among others, of that family, one of whose most distinguished members then filled the chair. To him it was most abhorrent to array landlords and tenants in mutual hostility, and he had sought to recommend himself to both, but he had used no means of corruption. Nor had he been betrayed into any servility; be had been returned for a most respectable and populous place, and had used no bribery, and knew nothing of any coercion. Newark was no decayed borough, and even if the motion for Parliamentary Reform, made by the noble Member the other evening, had been carried into effect that would not have disfranchised Newark. It contained upwards of 10,000 inhabitants, all, except paupers, having votes, and many of them being opulent and highly respectable. Those who represented Newark as a rotten borough, under the control of any individual, were guilty of a manifest falsehood. He apologized to the House for having so long trespassed on its attention, and perhaps wandered from the subject before it, which was rather an attack on a noble individual, for his mode of managing his property, than an attack on himself. Some allusions, however, had been made to him, which, would, he hoped, appear sufficient to the House to justify him for what he had said of himself. As to that noble individual, he would repeat that the accusation brought against him of pursuing unprincipled courses, with a view to obtain parliamentary influence, was false. His property was not managed with a view to obtain such influence. Those who were as willing to listen to a just eulogium on a fellow creature as to an idle calumny, would be glad to learn that among his Grace's tenants at Newark, there were some who gave him no votes, who had indeed nothing to give him, but their gratitude and their prayers. Had his Grace been so eager to acquire political influence as he had been represented to be, he would have dispossessed the poor widows who then occupied his tenements at Newark, to make room for voters. But he had taken a kinder and an honester course—a course consistent

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with the long-established character of his family, which had seated him firmly in the hearts of those who had known him the longest,—he had never dispossessed one such tenant to make room for a voter. The virtue of that noble individual was unsullied, and his patriotism exemplary As to any influence exerted on himself, he declared to God that he had been exposed to none. He felt proud in possessing the confidence of the noble person mentioned, but that noble person had best respected his own conscientious feelings in respecting those of the humble individual who was then addressing the House. That noble person, contrary to what had been said concerning dictation, had left him as a Representative of the people, to promote and secure their intersts, according to his own judgment. The influence of that noble person was not that alone of property, it was that of a kind master, and of a man estimable for all the domestic virtues, which, even more than his elevated rank, had secured him universal respect. He thought himself called on to say thus much, as it seemed to be the chief business of some individuals to assail that noble person with the most rancorous hostility.
Lord Howicksaid, he only rose for one moment, lest his silence should be misconstrued, as he conceived there was no appearance of the Ministers opposing the present Motion. He should only, therefore, notice the observation of the hon. Member who spoke last, that it would be in vain to deprive the Duke of Newcastle of his influence in the town of Newark. He honestly and candidly confessed, that during the continuance of the present system, were he a borough proprietor, he should avail himself unscrupulously of that interest for himself or his friends: therefore he did not complain of the Duke of Newcastle doing the same; but they did not want to deprive the Duke of his fair influence in the existing state of things at Newark. All they asked was, that he should not be privileged to exercise a right which he derived from the country, against the true interests of that country, and that he should not have the means of preventing the improvement of the national revenue, and of violating the Constitution. Let the House inquire into the facts stated by the petitioners, and see whether there did not exist abuses which were capable of due correction.
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The hon. Member for Colchester had given them some heads of the value of this property,—he did not mean to say that the computations were correct, still to ascertain the exact amount, inquiry was the only course. As far as the House knew at this moment, there was a prima facie case, that a considerable amount of national property could be more advantageously managed than it appeared to be at present. It was no sufficient answer to say they were to have another motion for a similar inquiry on a future day, which ought to obviate this application; for they were bound to inquire at the time when an alleged grievance was brought before them, and such was, he thought, the case at present. [Cries of 'Question.'] He saw by the clock that five minutes had not elapsed since he commenced, and as it was not his custom to trespass at any length upon the House, he claimed a fair hearing, and would not be prevented from continuing his address. He repeated that there was aprima facie case for an inquiry, which might possibly in its results show that a certain branch of national property could be more profitably managed for the country, as well as with more convenience for the inhabitants of Newark. The House could not in justice refuse the prayer of this petition, and therefore he should vote for the Motion.
Mr. Hobhouseobserved, that it appeared to him that the hon. Gentleman who had spoken last but one, and the noble Lord (Lord Lowther), had left the question exactly where they found it. He was induced to think, from the early part of the speech of the hon. Member for Newark, that that hon. Gentleman was about to proclaim that he was setting up for himself; but at the latter end of the speech he had fairly confessed that he came in on the interest of the Duke of Newcastle, confessing at the same time that he was sitting there in defiance of all the rules and regulations of Parliament. The hon. Gentleman had been sent there by a Peer, and had avowed it. Did not the hon. Gentleman tell the House that he had received his seat from a Peer of Parliament?
Mr. Sadler. —I did not say so.
Mr. Hobhouse. —I will make bold to ask the hon. Member, Is it so? Did not the hon. Member say, on a former occasion, that his Grace the Duke of Newcastle had allowed him to vote as he pleased. What was the inference (Mr. Hobhouse con-

1107
tinued) to be drawn from this? What inference could be drawn from this disclaimer other than that which the petioners draw—that the hon. Member is returned by the Duke of Newcastle?" He would not say whether it was by seventy-four votes or any other number derived from the Crown-lands, of which the Duke was the lessee; but he would say that by the admission of the hon. Member the allegation of the petitioners was proved, and that a case was made out that a Peer of Parliament had dared, in violation of the privileges of the Commons of England, to, use his influence in sending a member to that House. That was the question; and his noble friend, at the head of the Woods and Forests, had not properly considered it. It might be very proper for the noble Lord to make a joke of the subject, and talk of all the details, map and all, which were to be found in the Office of the Woods and Forests, but that had nothing to do with the constitutional question. The noble Lord might give that information ex officio, to the magistrates of the town of Newark for their guidance, and he must say, from the communication he had had with the Office of Woods and Forests, he had no doubt that every species of information was there given with great civility, but the question did not relate to the Office of Woods and Forests, it affected the constitutional privileges of Parliament. His noble friend was not disposed, as he-ought to be, to acknowledge the fact of a member having been sent into that House by the influence of the Duke of Newcastle. That was the fact, and he would not say that other individuals had not also been sent there by the influence of other Peers. That assertion, however, was no defence of the single instance, but rather an increase of the offence. He was sorry that the right hon. Gentleman (the Member for Liverpool) was not then present, for he had stated that when the House found a blot, it should take care to hit it hard, and take care that the people had no reason to reproach the House. Here was a blot, and if it were not hit—if the great Duke of Newcastle, though he were the best of all possible Dukes, and the best, too, of all possible patrons—if he were allowed to escape, the House would tell the people that its resolutions were mere waste paper. The evils of the system, though known, were not avowed, they were practised, but concealed: de-
1108
prĉudi miserum est; and having caught the Duke of Newcastle, it might as well at once tear up the Resolution which was then lying on the Table, and put the Mace under the Table, and not allow the Resolution to be repeated Session after Session, that no Peer of Parliament ought to have any influence in returning Members to that House, nor ought to dare to meddle with the elections of the people, if it did not go into the inquiry and take measures to vindicate its unsullied privileges. He was sorry to hear the noble Lord (whom he had long known, and the kindness of whose nature he was well acquainted with) he was sorry to hear that noble Lord make a taunt of his hon. friend's pathetic account of the sufferings of the men banished from their homes, and represent the picture he had drawn as not connected with the question. He was not astonished at what had fallen from the learned Gentleman, it was his calling, he was bound to advocate a particular cause; but the noble Lord was not sent to Parliament for such a purpose. It was well to talk; but he would put a case which would illustrate the question. He would suppose that the King's Government should send a message to his Grace the Duke of Newcastle, that he should no longer be the beneficial Lessee under the Crown, and that he should be stripped of all the valuable possessions he held under the Crown, amounting to 960 acres, he would suppose that this individual should be ejected because he had given an adverse vote on the losing side of a defeated question; and if this were done to the Duke of Newcastle, how would they hear of violated rights, of an infringement of the best birth-right of Englishmen—the right to do with his own as he liked. He would compare this case with the conduct charged against the Duke of Newcastle. The people of Newark were turned out of their houses because they did not vote as his Grace wished. The hon. Member said, let them go to the other untenanted houses in Newark that had been thrown up on the occasion. They were to leave all that was dear to them, their own houses, their own homes and happy firesides, which were, perhaps, all their comforts, because they did not vote as his Grace bade them. Was this a picture that the noble Duke would like? Could it be compared to the case of his Grace, whom he had supposed

1109
ejected from the Crown Lands? He could not compare the persons, but the cases were similar; it was the same thing —they had given their votes according to their own wills, and not according to the wishes of another. His Grace might find other houses if he were ejected, and other lands; but when these poor persons were ejected, where were they to find other homes? Banishment was a severe punishment to a rich man, but to a poor man it might be death; it might deprive him of all the means of subsistence, and be so severe that no person could wish to inflict it. The hon. Gentleman said, that the case was exaggerated; that it had been represented that two hundred persons had been ejected, and that in fact only forty had been made miserable. Suppose there was only one, that would be sufficient to make out the case, and would prove the interference of his Grace. But the allegations in the petition had not been, and could not be denied, they were admitted even in that famous letter which might make his Grace exclaim, with a famous man of antiquity, Quam vellem nescire literas—it would have been better that he had never put pen to paper, and if such conduct were permitted in his Grace, if he were allowed to commit acts that were contrary to the Resolutions of that House, then it would be better to tear up those Resolutions, and not leave them on their Journals. It had been said inquiry was without precedent, but he would show that there were other parallel cases. A Peer of Parliament, a Bishop, in 1701, had chosen to interfere in sending a member to that House. He had said to his ecclesiastical tenants, that he would not renew their leases, unless they voted for the person he nominated. The case was brought before the House of Commons by Sir John Packington, and the Bishop charged with the offence was Lloyd, a very good man, and one of the Seven Bishops. The case was heard at the Bar of that House, and an account of it was to be found in Howell's State Trials, vol. 14. After an examination at the Bar, it was referred to a committee, and the committee reported to the House that there had been an interference with the privileges of the House, by a Peer of Parliament, and the House resolved that an Address should be presented to the Crown, praying that the Bishop might be deprived of his Almoner's place, which was the only way he could
1110
be punished. And what was the answer of Queen Anne? In her answer the Queen said, "I am sorry that there is occasion for this Address against the Bishop of Worcester; I shall order and direct, that he shall no longer continue to supply the place of Almoner, but I will put another in his room to perform that office." The Bishop therefore was dismissed. At that time the decency was observed of defending the privileges of the House, and he did not think it possible that a case of that kind could ever be brought before the House of Commons without the House coming to some such determination. There were other similar instances which he would quote. In 1747 Mr. Pitt, who was afterwards called the celebrated Mr. Pitt, and was then Paymaster of the Forces, was petitioned against by the people of Seaford, in Sussex, as having been returned by the interference of a Peer, who at a certain dinner had used his influence with some persons, and had appeared on the hustings when Mr. Pitt was elected. The Parliamentary History* in which this was contained went on to say that Mr. Pitt made a joke of the whole matter, and treated it with contempt, and laughed at the petitioners, just as the complaints of the present petitioners had been laughed at. The nobleman concerned happened, oddly enough, to be another Duke of Newcastle. He did not know if all Dukes of Newcastle were the same, but there was at least one of the Pelhams who had tried to influence the return of a member to that House. Unluckily Mr. Pitt was not then so great a patriot as he afterwards became, and as he represented the Prime Minister, a very small minority only voted for the examination. He could find another strong case. The Duke of Chandos had interfered with the election of Southampton, when he was Lord Lieutenant of the county, in consequence of which a strong Re-solution was placed on the Journals of the House. The noble Lord was deeply implicated, and the House resolved that it should be examined in a committee; but when the committee made a report, which was, that the Duke of Chandos had interfered, the House, in consequence of a facetious speech made by Lord Nugent, who was a relation of the family, passed to the order of the day. But the case was proved against the Duke of Chandos, and the
*; See Hansard's Parl. Hist. vol. xiv. p. 106,

1111
House had then declared its opinion that no Lord Lieutenant should in future presume to interfere with its privileges. The case was therefore so far in point, and went to establish that for which he was contending. For what object was the hon. Member for Newark sent to that House? Was it not plain that he had been sent there to vote as the Duke of Newcastle, pleased in return for the votes which his Grace had procured for him? To what did that hon. Member owe his seat in that House, but to the interference—the undue and unlawful inter-fei'ence—of the Duke of Newcastle? Was that a mode of election to which that House should give its sanction? The present case was of more importance than either of the others; and if such things were not examined with a serious assurance of remedying them, the country would look with aversion on their proceedings. What objection could there be, to sending for the individual who is the Duke's agent, and who was said by the petitioners to have accompanied the hon. Member for Newark in his canvass. The House of Commons was bound to send for Mr. Tallents, and call on him to explain how it was that the hon. Member's Letter was sent to him under the cover of his Grace the Duke of Newcastle. The allegation had been made that this agent had desired certain freemen to vote for a particular person, and what prevented the House from ascertaining if that allegation was true? If they did not do this, they would reduce the people of England to regard that which they ought to consider as their greatest blessing, as a curse; and that which should be a badge of freedom, would become a chain of dependence, and a sign of servility. It would be far better not to allow them to have votes, than, having votes, to compel them to vote against their will. They ought not, like cattle, to be sold to the highest bidder; they were sold, however, when they were made to vote against their wishes and their conscience. The hon. Member for Newark had said, on one occasion, that he hoped nobody would be harmed on his account. Did he not say that? He believed he did; and if he did, was that freedom of election? The House had been told by the hon. Member for Aldborough, that the petition had emanated only from the lower rabble: was that the mode in which they were to turn round upon the people when they preferred their just complaints to that House? When
1112
the dearest privileges of Englishmen were trampled upon,—when (their most sacred rights were invaded, and when they came forward to prefer their complaints to Parliament, were they to be called a "rabble," and to have their complaints ridiculed and laughed at? Was the expression denied? Did not the hon. Member say, that the meeting in question was only composed of the "rabble?" (Cries of "No, no," from Mr. Sadler]. The hon. Member might not have called them a rabble, but the learned Gentleman (Mr. Clinton) had certainly called the meeting a "rabble." Was it to be tolerated, that any portion of the people of England should be first robbed of their rights, and then stigmatized as a "rabble," when they justly complained of the spoliation? Was it to be endured that the people of England should be despoiled of that liberty which was the proudest portion of their inheritance of freedom, and the most beneficial constituent of the Government under which they lived, and then be stigmatized as a "rabble" for presuming to complain of such a proceeding? If only the lowest rabble had the sense to petition and take care of their rights, for his part he thought such rabble as much deserving attention as the proudest and best amongst themselves. It was a little too much that that House was to be composed of representatives of Peers. He for one should always speak strongly on this point. The question was, whether they were to be considered as the independent Representatives of the People, or whether they were to allow themselves to be the creatures of certain Peers. The very question was a disgrace. There might yet be some doubt of it in the House —out of the House, however, it was only a matter of history. He held in his hand a petition from the Friends of the People, which would show hon. Gentlemen that he was quite impartial, and that he was justified in being vehement. The petition represented the opinions of the country, and showed that the people had sufficient grounds for their assertions. Honourable Members laughed, but he was sent there to be vehement on such occasions. He mentioned that, to show that he was in perfect good-humour, and that he had no feeling against the hon. Member for Newark. The petitioners he had referred to stated that they were ready to prove their assertions at the Bar of the House. The petition was presented to the

1113
House by the father of the noble Lord behind him (Lord Howick), and it stated what he would then read—
"They affirm that seventy of your honourable Members are returned by thirty-five places, where the right of voting is vested in Burgage and other tenures of a similar description; and in which it would be to trifle with the patience of your honourable House to mention any number of voters whatever, the elections at the places alluded to being notoriously a mere matter of form. And this your petitioners are ready to prove.
"They affirm that, in addition to the seventy honourable Members so chosen, ninety more of your honourable Members are elected by forty-six places, in none of which the number of voters exceeds fifty. And this your petitioners are ready to prove.
"They affirm that, in addition to the one hundred and sixty so elected, thirty-seven more of your honourable Members are elected by nineteen places, in none of which the number of voters exceeds one hundred. And this your petitioners are ready to prove."
He would ask the hon. Member for Newark, could he approve of such a system?—did he think that the Commons' House of Parliament should contain a certain number of nominees of Peers? The people were perfectly sensible that all this was a farce and a cheat; that the House did not represent the people, but a certain number of persons, who had appropriated the franchise of the country. As to the influence of the Crown, that was a point he had not forgotten. By Act of Parliament, the persons holding the smallest offices under the Crown were not allowed to interfere at elections. An Excise Officer, or a Custom House Officer, who should do so, was liable to be fined 100 l., and to be punished with infamy and imprisonment. If the officers of the Crown were not allowed to interfere, was it to be suffered that a person holding property under the Crown, like the noble Duke, was to employ it for that purpose? The noble Duke must, not do that with his own which would deprive all the freemen of Newark of what ought to be their own; he must not think so to deal with his property, as to overthrow and destroy the Constitution, which secured to him the possession of his property, and even the enjoyment of his life. The allegations in the petition could be proved he believed; and if the House did not allow them to be proved, if it refused the prayer of the petition, if it did not take the petition into consideration, he did not see how it could ever again punish any
1114
corrupt boroughs. If it were a crime to sell a vote, it was a greater crime to drive people out of their houses because they did not vote in a particular manner. If one was an act that could not be justified, the other was the greatest crime a citizen could be guilty of towards his country.
Mr. Sadlersaid, in explanation, that he had never denied that Peers might exert influence over some of the Members of that House; but the allegation that the noble Duke in question had exerted influence over him, he positively denied.
Sir R. Wilsonsupported the prayer of the petition. He said that, upon a former night, he had alluded to this transaction, and if his feelings of disgust had been strongly excited by it then, they had been still more increased by the facts that had come out during this discussion. He saw persons avowedly sent to that House as representatives of the Peers who sent them there, and who were compelled to give their votes as the persons by whose influence they had been elected chose to order them. If the present system were continued, it would make the people all slaves instead of freemen. The hon. Member for Newark had denied the influence of the Duke of Newcastle over him; but was it not true that forty persons had been turned out of their homes because they had given their votes for the other candidate? It was said, that one of the electors explained that he had given his vote for the wrong candidate by mistake, and that then the Duke's agent told him that the notice to quit was also a mistake. The hon. Member said no coercion had been used; but if that were the case, how came he to be Member for Newark? The hon. Member had written a book from which a quotation had already been made, but one was to be found equally applicable to the hon. Member and his patron in a great dramatic writer:—
You have among you many a purchased slave,
Which, like your asses and your dogs and mules,
You use in abject and in slavish parts,
Because you bought them. Shall I say to you
Let them be free?
This was what he said, if the Duke had really bought his slaves, he must set them free—
Why sweat they under burthens? Let their beds
Be made as soft as yours, and let their palates
Be seasoned with such viands.
You will answer, the slaves are ours; but he would tell the great Duke that he must

1115
not make slaves of the people of England, nor convert their Representatives into instruments for his own profit. He would have all parties treated alike; and as punishment had already been inflicted for corruption, he hoped, with a view to further inquiry, that this petition would be referred to a committee.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that the first question the House had to decide was, should the petition be brought up? the next question was, should it be referred to a committee? The discussion had better be confined to the first question; and he should so confine it, as conforming to what he thought was the general sense of the House. His principal object in rising was, to prevent its being supposed that he supported the petition. He meant to decide the question without making it a political question. He had read the letters of the noble Duke, and he saw no reason why, from the profession of the noble Duke's political tenets, he should be favourably disposed towards him; but he saw no reason, at the same time, why the petition should be considered in a different light from other similar petitions, and he should go to a vote on it on the principles of common sense and reason. There were two questions involved in the petition in relation to the Crown-lands— one, whether a case had been made out to call for the interference of Parliament; and the other, if the House, after establishing the interference of the Duke, should take any other step: and with respect to the Crown-lands, the case was, he thought, a complete failure. The hon. Member who had said he was vehement because he represented a populous place, had admitted that he had found all the Commissioners of Woods and Forests courteous and attentive. [Mr. Hobhouse: undoubtedly he had always found them very civil.] Well, civil and attentive to the interests of the hon. Member's constituents when he had occasion to call on them. The hon. Member who spoke last, and represented the borough of Southwark, must know that the Crown had a considerable property in that borough, and yet it had not interfered with his election. He would say the same of Dover. If the hon. Member who presented the petition, and represented that place, had found any such interference, he would, no doubt, in a parenthesis, have managed to inform the House of it.
1116
He had found no disposition to exert the influence of the Crown in his election. So much for the influence of the Crown over elections. With respect to the property which the Duke of Newcastle held under the Crown, he had received the lease in 1806, and it was to run for thirty years. At the period of granting the lease, it was not said that any larger tender than that offered by the noble Duke had been made. It was not said that the Crown required less of the Duke than it could obtain from other persons. When the lease was renewed, the sum was raised to 2,000 l. Lord Grenville was then First Lord of the Treasury, and as he was opposed to the noble Duke in politics, the House might be certain that no favour was shown him, and that the lease was not renewed but at its full value. The lease was granted in 1806, and it was granted in the interest of the Government. It was the duty of the commissioners to attend to that. In fact, the Crown was quite unfettered, except as to the duration of the lease, and it had been granted on the same principle as governed the granting of all similar leases. He could say also, that there were no negotiations pending for the renewal of the lease; no engagement had been entered into, and there was no implied engagement between the Crown and the Duke. His noble friend had also stated, that it was the duty of the department over which he presided to consult the interest of the Crown, and let the Crown-lands to the greatest advantage. If, for example, the ground could be built on so as to yield a larger sum than that given by the noble Duke, it would be the duty of the Board to let the ground on a building lease. There would be no difficulty in such a case, he believed: but that the House of Commons should address the Crown to affix a brand and stigma on the Duke of Newcastle, to say that he is not to have the lease of these lands, was what he could not consent to. The Duke was in this respect entitled to the same privileges as others, and must be left capable of taking lands from the Crown like any other person. He apprehended that the property of which the Duke had a lease for thirty years could not be distinguished from his other property, and it was no breach of the privilege of that House for him to use the influence which that property gave him. It was impossible to pre-

1117
serve any distinction between the property leased from the Crown and other property. The Duke might let it to tenants at will, or for a term of years, and might deal with that as with any other property belonging to him. There was on this ground no reason for the House of Commons to interfere. Then it was said, that seven individuals had received notice to leave their houses [Forty!—several voices called out]. No; he begged leave to say only seven. What had been proved to show that the Duke made any improper use of the property held under the Crown? The petition went to pray that, having made an improper use of this land, his lease might not be renewed. He believed that the House would not think it necessary that he should make any excuses for the privileges which were derived from property over which the Crown had no control, and which were exercised in the same way. The Duke of Newcastle had a right to use his property, whether hired from the Crown, or derived from any other source, as he liked.—The hon. Member (Mr. P. Thompson) founded his argument for the interference of the House on the ground that these persons were dispossessed because they had refused to vote for their landlord; but he did not see that there was any proof of that—nor was there any proof that menace had been employed in order to make them vote for the Duke of Newcastle. The hon. Gentleman, had, however, assumed that there was some menace, and that they were required to vote; for if it were not so, why, he asked, were they dispossessed? Now, supposing that such was the state of the case, and that the Duke of Newcastle had used improper and unconstitutional means to procure the return of the member he fancied, was it not the duty of those who felt, aggrieved by such conduct to proceed in that course which had been provided by the House for such grievances? Was it not their duty to present a petition and complain of an undue return at the election? If they had adopted that course, then the whole expense of the petition would have justly and properly devolved on the parties who had an interest in the question which the committee would be called on to decide. But what would be the consequence of the adoption of that Motion brought forward by the hon. Gentleman? Why. by applying to Parliament at this late period for the appointment of a select committee to in-
1118
quire into the merits of the petition, the whole of the expense would be thrown on the public. If the House were prepared to maintain the inviolability of that jurisdiction on the subject of election petitions which he thought admirably qualified for the accomplishment of all the purposes it had in view, he was of opinion it should scrupulously abstain from any interference, or, at all events, that it should be well satisfied of the imperative necessity of putting these disappointed parties in possession of such a power, after so long a time had elapsed, and after they had abstained from having recourse to the measure which Parliament had provided as a remedy for such complaints [hear]. He would beg the House to observe the peculiar distinction between the two courses to which he had alluded. If the parties had appealed by the ordinary method of petition, Parliament had provided a tribunal before which the merits of that petition are tried, and the parties examined to the truth of all allegations on their oath. But then, on the other hand, he would beg them to look at the consequences of adopting the Motion for a Select Committee to inquire into the merits of the Petition. The consequence would be, that they would send the facts to be inquired into before a tribunal where the evidence could not be taken on oath, and where the whole of the proceedings were likely, therefore, to be subject to great objections. If they consented to adopt such a course at the present moment, and in such a case, they at the same time would go far to supersede that peculiar jurisdiction which, in his opinion, the House ought, by every means in its power, to fortify and defend. He was not prepared, with the limited information he possessed, to say, whether the Duke of Newcastle had, or had not, dispossessed any of his tenants in the manner which the hon. Member had been induced to state. That the Duke had treated his tenants in that manner, he repeated, he was not prepared to admit or deny, although, perhaps, from the fact of there being several untenanted houses, it might be presumed that those who had occupied them were ejected by their landlord. He confessed, however, that there was a question connected with that subject which appeared to him even more important than anything connected with the privileges of the House. The right of property in every man, whether a Peer or a Commoner, was to be held

1119
sacred. There was, he repeated, no proof of any menace being used—none that those persons were dispossessed because they refused to vote for their landlord. Seven tenants were, he believed, the whole number who had been deprived of their houses out of seventy. But passing over that, if the House was prepared to say that those who exercised on such occasions their just right of property were to be subjected to the interference of Parliament, whenever it pleased the parties to come before it, it would place itself in a situation equally embarrassing and inconvenient, and lay the foundation of a very dangerous precedent. He would say, they could not do anything more dangerous or prejudicial than to leave it to be inferred, that, a tenant who refused to vote for his landlord had a right to remain in possession of that landlord's property in defiance of his wishes. Henceforward every tenant who chose to vote against his landlord would answer when he was called on to leave that landlord's property, "Oh, you wish to make me a martyr to your party prejudices in this case. I recollect what was done in the case of the Duke of Newcastle and the people of Newark, and I shall bring you before the House of Commons." So far, therefore, from protecting a good tenant, and maintaining the purity of election, they would be giving a premium to a bad tenant to retain possession of his landlord's property, and yet control and thwart his wishes whenever it might suit his prejudice or caprice to do so. While he alluded to this matter with reference to its effects on the right of property, he begged it to be understood that he did not see any material difference in its application, between a Peer of the realm and any great landed proprietor. The hon. Gentleman had referred them to a Resolution of the House; but if a tenant owed an obligation to a landlord he was bound to repay it; and if the hon. Gentleman hoped, by any means he could devise, to exclude the duty owed by the tenant to the landlord from operating in the disposal of his vote, he was confident he would be disappointed; and standing in his place in that House, he was not ashamed to avow that he hoped he would be disappointed. [hear] He thought that property, whatever might be the nature or extent of the constitutional part of the question, ought to have a due influence in the State, whether the possessor was a Peer or a Commoner; and he could
1120
not bring himself to believe that the Resolution the hon. Gentleman had alluded to was intended to exclude that species of influence. In conclusion, the right hon. Gentleman observed, that he was not prepared to give his vote for a committee which never could properly determine the question at issue, independent of all the objections which might be taken to its appointment. That committee never could determine either the motives of the Duke of Newcastle in ordering the ejectments, or the facts which preceded it, and there fore, upon principles of common sense and reason, and divesting the question of all private or political prejudice, he should feel himself bound to give his vote against the Motion for referring the Petition to a Select Committee.
The Petition was brought up and read.
Mr. P. Thompson, in moving that it be referred to a Select Committee, said, he should not, after the discussion the subject had already undergone, trespass for any time on the attention of the House. He had heard but one word which could induce him to think the Motion might be spared; but on consideration he did not think even that word would prove sufficient. The noble Lord (Lowther) and the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) had assured the House that the Government had no intention at present to renew the Crown-leases granted to the Duke of Newcastle. He thanked them for the announcement, and rejoiced at it; but it did not give any security to the people of Newark. The present Government might, be determined not to renew the leases, but the Duke of Newcastle was at the head of a considerable party in the State—he might come into power, and, by means of that power, procure to himself a grant of the leases which the present Government might be inclined to withhold. The right hon. Gentleman said the committee would be a committee appointed to inquire into motives. He would say, it was a committee to inquire into facts. If, as he thought it would prove, that these facts were correct, then the House was bound to interfere, not to punish the Duke of Newcastle, however oppressive might have been his conduct; not to shake the last election; but to prevent the renewal of leases which have proved injurious to the properties of those who live under them, and which are calculated to support a violation of the spirit of the

1121
Constitution. The question to be tried was, he repeated, one simply of facts; and one of two results must follow from the inquiry into these facts: either the charges must be proved to be true, and a remedy applied to the evil; or they must be declared false, and the character of the Duke of Newcastle would then be relieved from imputations which must continue to attach to it until that inquiry took place. The right hon. Gentleman said, the leases were granted in 1806; but the fact was, that although the old lease expired in 1806, it was renewed as early as 1801. He had one word more to add on the measure. The right hon. Gentleman said, the people of Newark had received little injury, because only seven were ejected; he should think one too many; but the only reason for the number not being greater was, that a great many persons, through the fear of consequences, refrained from voting. The right hon. Gentleman had asked why the parties did not present an election petition? He could tell the House why they had not: it was possible that menace and a number of indirect, means might be brought into operation, to influence the disposal of votes, although nothing direct could be effectually proved to the House: that was the reason why they did not petition. In many cases, however, there was no need of menace, because the tenants had the example of the elections of the years 1796 and 1826 in their recollection, when numbers were dispossessed of their holdings, because they presumed to give a vote contrary to the wishes of the then Duke of Newcastle. The hon. Member having concluded, by expressing a determination to press the Motion, the House divided. For the Committee 61; Against it 194;—Majority 133.

List of the Minority.

Althorp, Lord

Davenport, W.

Baring, F.

Easthope, J.

Baring, Sir T.

Ewart, W.

Brownlow, C.

Guise, Sir B., Bart.

Burdett, Sir F.

Graham, Sir. J.

Brougham, H.

Grant, hon. C.

Bright, H.

Grant, R.

Beaumont, T. W.

Howick, Lord

Calvert, C.

Honywood, W. P.

Clive, E. B.

Harvey, D. W.

Cavendish, W.

Heneage, G. F.

Cave, O.

Hume, J.

Denison, W. J.

Kemp, T. R.

Dawson, A.

Littleton, E. J.

1122

Lumley, J. S.

Russell, Lord J.

Lambert, J. S.

Robinson, Sir G.

Marjoribanks, S.

Sefton, Lord

Maberly, J.

Stanley, E. G. S.

Marshall, J.

Slaney, R. A.

Marshall, W.

Smith, W.

Monck, J. B.

Smith, V.

Morpeth, Viscount

Taylor, M. A.

Martin, J.

Wilson, Sir R.

O'Connell, D.

Warrender, hon. G.

Osborne, Lord F.

Wood, Alderman

Palmerston, Viscount

Warburton, H.

Poyntz, W. S.

Wilbraham, G.

Palmer, C. F.

Webb, Colonel E.

Pendarvis, E.

Ward, C.

Philips, G.

TELLERS.

Price, R.

Mr. Poulett Thomson

Protheroe, E.

Mr. Hobhouse.

Robarts, A. W.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Sir G. Clerkmoved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that in consequence of a new arrangement which he understood had been made, respecting the salary attached to the office of Treasurer of the Navy, he should withdraw, for the present, the motion on that subject of which he had given notice. In so doing, he reserved to himself the right of renewing his motion, if the new arrangement did not satisfy him, whenever the vote for the salary of the Treasurer of the Navy should come regularly before them in the Navy Estimates.
Mr. Humesaid that, as new arrangements were forming by the Ministry, he trusted that some new arrangement would be formed by which the millions of revenue arising from the Customs and Excise, now under the separate control of Government, might be placed under the more immediate control of the House of Commons.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
Sir George Clerkthen addressed the Committee, but in consequence of the low tone of voice in which he spoke was frequently inaudible in the gallery. He was understood to say, that had it not been for the observations which had just fallen from the hon. Member for Cumberland, he should have confined himself to a simple enumeration of the number of men and the amount of wages which would be wanted for the

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service of the Navy in the course of the present year. In consequence, however, of the hon. Baronet's having withdrawn his motion upon the understanding that he should state all the arrangements which had recently been made respecting the Navy, he should proceed to state the redactions which had been made in the estimates for the naval service of this year, as contrasted with the estimates for the naval service of last year. He would commence by stating that the salary of the Treasurer of the Navy was this year 1,000 l. less than it was last, and was thus reduced to only half the amount of what it was in the year 1797. The Committee, he trusted, would bear in mind that the last time when any discussion took place respecting the expedience of retaining this office was in the year 1826, when a proposition was made, to increase the salary of the President of the Board of Trade to 5,000 l. a-year. It was suggested that it would be better to make the salary of that officer 2,000 l. a-year, and unite with it the salary of the Treasurership of the Navy, 3000 l. a-year, that office being generally held, as it then was, by the President of the Board of Trade. Mr. Tierney, who had been Treasurer of the Navy, was the person who had first made that suggestion. After agreeing that 5,000 l. a-year was not an over-payment for discharging the offices of President of the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy, he proceeded to say, "that he could by no means concur with those who thought that, the office of Treasurer of the Navy should be abolished. It was an office of very old standing, of considerable public importance, and of great personal responsibility to the holder. He had held the office, and speaking from the recollection of twenty-three years back, he could assure the Committee that it was by no means a sinecure; on the contrary, it was one which required no inconsiderable degree of care and attention." From this opinion the honourable Member for Montrose dissented, although he did not seem to think the office useless, for he proposed, as an amendment, that an inquiry should be instituted to ascertain if any and what alteration could be made in the office and salary of the Treasurer of the Navy. He did not propose to abolish the office. His amendment led to an almost unanimous expression on the part of Parliament that the office should not be abolished, but that
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the salary should form part of the emoluments of the right hon. Gentleman who then held the situation of President of the Board of Trade. From these circumstances he could not help supposing, that the objections which the hon. Baronet felt to the late mode of filling up the office of Treasurer of the Navy arose from his imagining, as that office was attached to another high and responsible office, that it was in itself a sinecure. He would, therefore, remind the hon. Baronet of one or two facts, which might, perhaps, induce him to alter that opinion. In the year 1817, the Treasurer of the Navy had a salary of 4,000 l. a-year, with a house and other advantages worth 700 l. or 800 l. a-year more. In that year the Committee of Finance presented a Report, in which they stated, that they considered the salary paid to that officer as much too large, and recommended a reduction on any future appointment to that office, so as to place it on a level, in respect to emolument, with the Paymaster of the Forces. In compliance with that Report, the emoluments of the office were reduced under the administration of Lord Goderich to 3,000 l. a-year, and Government now proposed to reduce it by another 1,000 l., thus leaving it at 2,000 l. a-year. He assured the House, that the Treasurer of the Navy had other duties to perform besides that of paying the bills and orders drawn upon him by the Commissioners of the Navy. He had to take charge of, and was responsible for, all money paid or payable upon seamen's wills and powers. The Committee should understand, that the duties of the office had been considerably augmented, in consequence of two Acts recently passed; the first of which transferred the whole management of the out-pensioners of Greenwich Hospital to the Treasurer of the Navy, and the other imposed upon that officer additional duties relating to prizes. Last year an Act was passed for altering the constitution of Greenwich Hospital, and the business that was formerly transacted there, was now performed by five commissioners, of whom the Treasurer of the Navy was president. The Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests was another commissioner of this Board, and both he and the Treasurer of the Navy executed their duties there gratuitously. It was the intention of Government to abolish the office of Pay-

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master of the Navy as soon as a proper opportunity occurred, and to transfer the duties of that office to the Treasurer of the Navy, which would be an additional saving of 1,200 l. a-year. Thus it appeared that in consequence of the arrangement which had been made, there was an immediate saving of 1,000 l., and there would be an ultimate saving of 2,200 l. In other public departments reductions to a considerable extent had been effected. Two commissioners of the Navy Board had been reduced. The reductions made with respect to the public departments in London would have been much greater had it not been for the transference from Greenwich Hospital of a great number of clerks to the office of Treasurer of the Navy. In the course of the ensuing year, however, their number would be considerably reduced, and a further saving under this head would be apparent in the next estimates. In the department, of the Dock-yards there was a saving this year in the salaries of officers of 28,000 l. This saving had chiefly arisen from the reduction at Deptford dock-yard, which would no longer be used as a place for shipbuilding, but only as a depot for stores for the supply of the fleet. With respect to the wages of artificers, there was this year a saving of 21,000 l. as compared with last year. The sum of 450,000 l., now charged for artificers' wages, included the charges for small craft, lighters, &c., which were formerly placed under the head of Ships in Ordinary. It had frequently been objected that Government maintained a greater number of artificers than was necessary. It was impossible to deny that more artificers were retained than full employment could be found for. It was the intention of Government to reduce their number; but the reduction was delayed for the present on account of the great distress which necessarily would be created in the neighbourhood of the naval arsenals by the discharge of any considerable number of men, at a time when there existed such difficulty in procuring employment. Government, however, had effected a reduction by abolishing the allowances which were granted to the artificers thirty years ago in commutation of an abuse which then existed. It was formerly the perquisite of the artificers in the dock-yards, to carry away as many chips as they could. It therefore happened that, during the last hour of their
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stay in the yards, they employed themselves in collecting their chips into bundles, instead of pursuing their labours. In 1801 this practice was commuted for an allowance of 6d. per day to shipwrights, and 4d. and 3d. per day to other workmen. The men had been informed that this allowance would be discontinued, and they knowing that they were only retained in employment from motives of humanity, gratefully acceded to the proposed reduction. He ought to state, however, that 450 artificers had been wholly discharges from Deptford, Under the head of stores a small increase would be apparent; but this arose from the transfer of various miscellaneous items to that head. Under the head of foreign dock-yards also there was an increase of 14,000 l., which could easily be accounted for by the events of the last year. The next head under which there had been a material reduction was that of the wages of men in ordinary. The reduction there was 40,000 l. In the half-pay there was this year a saving of 19,000 l. It had frequently been made a subject of complaint that there existed no restriction on promotion in the navy. With a view to remedy that evil, the Admiralty had lately come to a resolution, that no promotion should take place in any rank except in proportion of one promotion for three vacancies. The admirals on foreign stations had the power of filling up vacancies occasioned by death or the dismissal of officers. With that patronage it was not intended to interfere further than this — the admiral would, in future, be allowed to fill up only one vacancy, but not those consequent upon it. For instance, if a captain died, the admiral might appoint a commander to his situation, but he could not, as at present, promote a lieutenant to be a commander, or a midshipman to be a lieutenant. He had no doubt that this restriction would soon have the effect of reducing the amount of the half-pay. There appeared to be an increase in the superannuation account, which arose from an alteration that had taken place in the mode of providing for the deficiency of funds for the support of officers' widows. It had formerly been the custom to enter on ships' books a number of names as the representatives of efficient men, and the wages which were paid to these supposed men were transferred to the fund for the payment of widows' pensions. These fictitious

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men, or widows' men, as they were called, were now abolished, and the whole sum required for the payment of the pensions was voted at once. This branch of our expenditure was constantly increasing. During the present year the number of widows put on the list was three times as great as that of those who died. The question whether pensions should be continued to officers' widows after their re-marriage was at present under consideration. In the sum required for provisions there was this year a material reduction. He now begged to call the attention of the Committee to the reductions which had been made in the navy estimates during the last nine years. It was frequently asserted in that House that Government had made no reduction at all. He would show what had been the reduction in salaries alone since the year 1821. Since that period there had been reduced in the Admiralty 14 officers, whose salaries amounted to 7,015 l.; in the Navy Pay-office 24 officers, salaries 10,800 l.; in the Navy Office, 37 officers, salaries 12,000 l.; in the dockyards, 468 officers, salaries 88,630 l.; in foreign yards 29 officers, salaries 36,000 l.; in the Victualling Office, 48 officers, salaries 8,000 l.; in the victualling yards, 37 officers, salaries 5,280 l.; in the medical department, eight officers, salaries 3,600 l. This reduction was equal to a third of the whole amount of the expense of the establishments on which it had been effected. It could not be said that these reductions had been confined solely to persons holding inferior situations, because the number of persons reduced was in proportion to the sum saved, namely, a third of the whole. Last year, the number of men voted for the service was 30,000 l.; but in the course of last autumn, the situation of affairs in the Mediterranean rendered it necessary, in the opinion of the Government, materially to increase our force in that quarter. The consequence was, that the number of men at the present moment exceeded 32,000; but owing to recent events, orders had been sent out to recall the greater part of the additional force which had been despatched to the quarter he had alluded to. A considerable time must elapse before the men could be brought home and paid off, and therefore it was impossible to take the average number of men for the present year at less than 29,000. The wages proposed for seamen were at the same rate as those proposed in
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the Estimates of last year. The hon. Baronet concluded by moving the first Resolution, "That 29,000 men be employed for the service of the present year, including 9,000 royal marines."
Sir J. Grahamsaid, he did not think the hon. Baronet had made out a satisfactory case for the recent appointment to the office of Treasurer of the Navy. The hon. Baronet said it was intended to retain both the offices of Treasurer of the Navy and the Paymaster, until an opportunity occurred for abolishing the latter. That seemed to be an admission that both the offices were useless. In his opinion, the Treasurership of the Navy might have been attached to some other office held by a privy councillor, by which the entire salary would have been saved. The recent junction of the offices of President of the Board of Trade and the Master of the Mint, afforded a precedent which might have been followed with regard to the office of Treasurer of the Navy. He did not however intend to enter at length into discussion on the point. He would take an opportunity of consulting his friends around him, and if he perceived that he was likely to be supported, he would on some future occasion, before the vote passed with respect to the Treasurer of the Navy, move the resolution of which he had given notice.
Mr. Humeasked the hon. Baronet to state the aggregate amount of the Estimates.
Sir G. Clerksaid, the aggregate amount of the Estimates was 5,595,000 l., and the aggregate saving, as compared with last year, was 282,939 l.
Mr. Humethought the whole establishment most extraordinary, and considering the changes that had been made, the Estimates appeared to him nearly the same as last year, and the deductions were upon the large items. When he considered that the Chancellor of the Exchequer knew that it was almost the unanimous opinion of the Finance Committee that the payment of the Marines and Navy, and of all the officers of both should be consolidated, the vote was brought forward in utter disregard of that Committee, The hon. Baronet had said that great deductions had taken place since the war, but he (Mr. Hume) asked, were they not to expect deductions as soon as the country was in a state of peace? Notwithstanding the great credit which Ministers took to them-

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selves for their economy, the Mouse was called upon to vole estimates exceeding, by 400,000 l., that which was voted in 1821 and in 1822. No objections had been made on that side of the House to the artisans of the Naval Establishment, except the practice of keeping them only three days at labour, instead of during the whole week. The general complaint of that side of the House, and of the country at large, had been directed to the large amount of the Civil Establishment of the Navy. With reference to what had been said upon the subject of promotions, he would ask, why was one single promotion allowed, when they had 5,000 naval officers, and were not able to employ one third of them? Government had no sympathy whatever for the Royal Marines, not an individual of that corps was promoted, except when a general promotion took place. Government was partial to one class of officers, because this afforded then) an opportunity of promoting their friends and relations, and to support a system of corruption in that House. Every frigate carried on board an extraordinary number of young men; and consequently, numbers were pressing on the Government for promotion. They would never beat down the 6,000,000 l. of pensions, unless they came to a resolution of allowing no pensions at all except to disabled persons. Could the antipathy of all classes to the system of pensions be wondered at, when in the paper he held in his hand, there appeared such names as Dundas and Bathurst palmed on the country for pensions of 500 l. a year. Was not this enough to make the poor rise and say, "No more of this — we are starving?!" Admiral Shield and Admiral Cunningham had double "pensions of 450 l. and 500 l. each. He could show the hon. Baronet that this was the case [here Mr. Hume read the printed paper corroborating his statement]. He hoped the members would show themselves alive to such gross abuses, and not suffer another pension to be granted until a committee called each individual before them, and pronounced whether he was a fit object for a pension. Persons as fit for service as he, had two or three allowances. One of the greatest improvements that could be made in our system would be to put an end to all pensions and to all allowances. He now came to consider the vote in the Chairman's hands. In his opinion Ministers had no reason to congratulate
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themselves on the reductions which they had made in these Estimates. As large a sum was charged for the superintendents of the workmen as for the workmen them-selves. Nothing could be more extravagant. What he wished to ask was, whether we were at peace or at war? Let that question be distinctly answered, and he should understand what we were about. Taking it for granted, however, according to his Majesty's declaration in the Speech from the Throne, that we were at peace with all the world, he would then say that the proposed vote was much too large. Let the Committee consider what our peace establishment had been in former years. When in the Finance Committee the question of numbers was agitated, the majority determined that the Committee had nothing to do with that question; although it had been said in the, House, that the Committee was appointed for the purpose of determining that question. If his Majesty's Government would come forward and make a fair and honest exposition of the relative situation of this country to other states, and of the real prospects which existed of maintaining peace, the question might be better dealt with; but the House was kept in the dark on that subject, and yet an establishment was kept up as large as if for war: it was difficult at present to guess for what purpose. In 1821 and 1822 the number of seamen and marines voted for the service of the year was 21,000. In one subsequent year, 1,000 men were added, on the pretence of the state of South America; in another year another 1,000 men was added, on account of the Burmese war; and so the estimate went on increasing until 1827, when it amounted to 30,000 men. It was then asserted that when the causes of its increase had ceased it would be reduced. What prevented the estimate now from being carried back to the state in which it was in 1821 and 1822? Was there anything in the condition of South America to prevent it? Was there any Burmese war to prevent it? In 1792 the whole number of men voted for the naval service was only 16,471, including 4,000 marines: so that the number of seamen was little more than 12,000. At present, the num-per proposed was 29,000, being 13,000 men more than in 1792; and yet let the Committee consider what the situation of England was in 1792 with regard to other naval powers, when compared with her

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situation at present. In 1792 the naval power of France, of Spain, of Holland, was much more formidable than at present. The only naval power that had risen since that period was the United States of America. According to the opinion of a most competent judge, whom he had consulted on the subject, 1,000 seamen and marines would be amply sufficient for the West-Indies (where we had now 2,347); 1,000 for South America; 685 for the Cape of Good Hope; 765 for Africa; 800 for North America; 6,750 for Home Service; 2,672 for the blockade; 600 for the Mediterranean, &c. &c. making in the whole 20,750. Why not throw in another 1,000 and reduce the proposed number to that amount? Why keep up 5,000 more marines than were necessary? The marines at present employed were 9,000; in former times they were only 4,200. At least a reduction of 4,000 might be made with great advantage. The expense of the officers nearly amounted to a third of the expense of the men; the charge for the former being 71,000 l., that for the latter, 245,000 l. The pay of the superior officers of the marines was enormous. That of a General was 1,728 l.; that of a Lieutenant-General was 1,303 l.; that of a Major-General, 1,037 l. Now as all these individuals were naval officers, and had other appointments and emoluments, he would ask why might not their pay as officers of marines be reduced? He should be told that the commissions in question were given to meritorious persons; but he would repeat that those persons had other things to depend upon. As to the officers of marines, properly so called, God knew that their promotion was very slow, and that their advantages were very limited. They ap-appeared to be utterly neglected by Government, and the only prizes in their profession to which they might aspire were given to naval men, who had nothing to do with the marines. These were all matters which demanded revision and reduction. On the whole, he repeated his conviction that the number of marines might be advantageously reduced by 4,000 men. He could show from the evidence of an hon. and gallant Officer opposite to him, given before the Finance Committee, that the naval establishment in time of peace might be reduced to 21,000 or 22,000 men. That number would be 6,000 more than we had in 1792, and would be equal
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to what we had in 1821. He was anxious to hear what reasons could be assigned for not reducing the number to that amount. If his Majesty's Government were engaged in considering how to make further reductions, he would give them the opportunity of doing so, by merely moving as an Amendment, that the number of men proposed should be voted, not from the 1st of January, 1830, to the 1st of January, 1831, but from the 1st of January 1830, to the 30th of June 1830.
Sir G. Cockburnbegged, as his evidence had been referred to by the hon. Member, to say a few words. The House must recollect that the hon. Member had said the same thing last year; and he had then been answered as now, that it was an unfair mode of stating that evidence. The question put to him was, what would be a proper peace establishment for the navy? He replied, that it was almost impossible to give an answer to the question, for it depended upon so many circumstances. Being then pressed by an hon. Member on the Committee to say something on the subject, he stated that he must know the exact state of things; that if we were at perfect peace without the slightest prospect or chance of war, and no power interfering with our commerce or any chance of it, he did not think we ought to have a man-of-war on the sea. The remark was, that that was not a proper thing; and then, at the request of the Committee, he had stated what he had thought was the lowest establishment for each station. That was the manner in which the evidence had been drawn from him; and he again said that it was unfair to use it as the hon. Member had done. Looking around, the Committee could not consider the country in a state in which his answer had supposed it. War had just closed between Rio Janeiro and Buenos Ayres, which had interfered with our merchants, who were still applying for a force to protect their trade on the South American station; and although the Burmese war had indeed closed, there were rising settlements in New Holland which required a naval force to protect them. With respect to doing away with half of our Marines, he (Sir G. Cockburn) had never argued that the number of Marines now voted was absolutely required. But they constituted a most valuable corps, and it was desirable to have such a body ready for duty in case of war, instead of taking raw men, who

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would be sea-sick. When the war of 1793 broke out, a part of the army had been obliged to embark instead of marines, whereby the army was disorganized, and the men were so sea-sick, that if an enemy had been met with, it would have been much better to have thrown them overboard. It should be recollected that the Marines were double-handed men, and half manned the ships, as well as did duty on shore. He hoped the House would not think of reducing them, and would vote the whole number asked, which was as small as was consistent with the service of the country.
Sir G. Warrender, even on the principle of economy, could not concur with the hon. Member (Mr. Hume) in his proposition for reducing the Marines, although there were other points in the Estimates on which he should agree with him in voting for a reduction. With respect to the Treasurership of the Navy, after a resolution passed by the House on the 12th of February, "that it is the opinion of this House, that in all the establishments of the country, civil and military, every saving ought, to be made which can be effected," he had not expected to see that office separated from other duties, for the first time, when a new writ was moved for Radnor a few days after. When he (Sir George Warrender) first came to the House, the Treasurership of the Navy was filled by Mr. Rose, who, though he disbursed 19,000,000 l. of the public money, executed also the office of Vice-president of the Board of Trade; and any person recollecting that period, must remember the activity of Mr. Rose. The duties of these two offices might easily be executed by one individual, with a saving of 3,000 l. to the country. He (Sir G. Warrender) concurred with the hon. Member (Mr. Hume) in what he said with respect to the pensions to young gentlemen after three or four years' service. He could say, however, for a young friend of his (Mr. Dundas), that he had been a very efficient member of the Navy Board, and it would be proper that he should be restored on a vacancy. As to Commissioners Shield and Cunningham, they had been long in the public service, and no pensions were more properly bestowed than those they enjoyed. With respect to the vote before the Committee, he was of opinion that, on grounds of economy, and on all the other grounds assigned by the gallant officer (Sir George
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Cockburn), it was a wise measure to maintain a large proportion of Marines.
Mr. Laboucherefelt considerable difficulty in voting upon this question on the spur of the moment, and without the opportunity of sufficiently investigating the Estimates. He could not go so far as the hon. Member (Mr. Hume) in contending that no pensions should be granted to public servants. He was not surprised, however, at his proposition, considering the extravagant principles acted on by the Government; though he could not concur in it. As to the example of America, he (Mr. Labouchere) had conversed with sensible men of that country who lamented the system, and he (Mr. Labouchere) had witnessed the most discreditable scenes in consequence of the adoption of that system. Individuals had retired from the public service into beggary. He disapproved of the American system with respect to pensions, which had been frequently commended by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, and was far from desiring its introduction into this country: at the same time he wished to have no pensions except such as the House might be disposed to grant. As he thought the reductions were not such as the country had a right to expect, he should support the Amendment of the hon. Member for Aberdeen.
Mr. Maberlywas desirous of noticing one point with respect to the superannuations, which amounted to 500,000 l. and would entail a debt of 6,000,000 l. on the country at twelve years purchase, so that we were debtors to the Pension List to that amount. He was anxious to call the attention of the House to so grave a subject, so that we might have an opportunity of reducing this enormous charge before it proved too late. He opposed the system—not individuals; but he must ask, why an individual (whose name had been mentioned), who had only served the country three or four years, stood on the Pension List at an allowance of 500 l. a year for life? Would the country support that? If so, never could we anticipate, with, any prospect of its being carried seriously into effect, the permanent reduction of a single shilling of taxation. It was useless to make any further struggle for economy or retrenchment; the House might as well let Ministers do what they pleased, if it allowed these superannuations to remain untouched. He thought his hon. friend the Member for

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Aberdeen fully justified in the Amendment he had proposed, as to the period for which the grants were to be voted. When we came to deal with numbers, it belonged to Ministers to say in what state the country was,—whether we were at war or peace. As yet, we had had nothing but an incidental statement from the gallant officer opposite, who was not a responsible person in such matters; no Cabinet Minister had made any statement as to what was the real situation of the country; yet the House was called upon to vote 29,000 seamen and marines, in the absence of all information calculated to enable hon. Members to judge of the number actually necessary. His hon. friend only called on the House by his Amendment to suspend its vote till some Cabinet Minister came down and made out a case calling for a particular amount of force. In 1817 the Finance Committee recommended 19,000 seamen and marines as a proper force: what were the circumstances which required that 10,000 more should now be kept up? Hon. Gentlemen opposite could not make out that more than 3,000 or 4,000 additional men were necessary beyond the Estimate of 1817. Allowing the correctness of their reasoning, that addition to the force of 1817 would make 23,000, yet we were asked to-night to vote 29,000 men. If an objection were made to the Marines, the gallant officer opposite said, "Oh, we must have marines, for soldiers will be sea-sick and useless." Well, if Government chose to keep up a large force of Marines, why not make them more available to the army and reduce the army? It was said that marines did garrison duty: perhaps so; but they were not rendered so useful as they might be (assuming for argument's sake that we wanted so many of them), and no reductions were made in the army in consequence of their services. But he contended that the country could not possibly require one marine for every two sailors; and yet these were the relative proportions of the two descriptions of force. No doubt it would be said that the numbers now proposed were necessary; but he asked why require 10,000 men more than were recommended by the Finance Committee of 1817? Till that question was answered, he should be justified in voting for a reduction of the force now proposed; but without going so far, he supported his hon. friend's Amendment, which he considered an, extremely
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proper one, because, if adopted, it left the House an opportunity of dealing with the subject at a future time. If the men were voted for six months, there would be plenty of opportunities for Ministers to come down and make an explicit statement as to the state of the country. They might soon find themselves at liberty to speak out on the subject, and state that it was necessary our establishments should be kept up as at present; or they might soon, perhaps, see the necessity of reduction.
Mr. Peelsaid, that he always felt pleasure in communicating any information he could, consistently with the proper performance of his public duty as a Minister of the Crown. The hon. Gentleman who had just sat down wished Government to make out a case for the increase in the number of men in the naval service in 1830, as compared with the number in 1817. It would be admitted that it might not be consistent with the interests of the country for Ministers to state in detail the particular reasons of a given increase in a particular year. Was it not obvious that there might exist reasons connected with our naval power, which would justify an increase in that department, and at the same time dictate silence on the subject? However, so far as his duty permitted, he would give the information required. The hon. Member took the year 1817, and asked why in 1830 should our naval force amount to 29,000 men, when in 1817 it was fixed at 19,000? This question imposed upon Government the task of accounting for an increase of 10,000 men. In 1830 we had 3,000 marines more than in 1817. The House had discussed the policy of keeping up an effective establishment of marines, and it appeared to be admitted that there was something so peculiar in the constitution and character of that force, that it was necessary to keep it up in its present state, if we wished to have an effective Navy. The Marines at present amounted to 9,000 men, of whom 4,500 were afloat, and 4,500 on shore. These divisions alternately replaced each other, and each thus became qualified for the full discharge of the peculiar duties of such a force. The 4,500 who remained at home were occupied in mixed naval and military duties; and it appeared that even those who were ashore were only two nights out of three in bed; so that their duties were not trifling. He felt the full force of observing principles of econo-

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my in time of peace as far as was consistent with the public safety; but he asked, whether we were not adopting a large and wise economy, and adding to the chances of continued peace, by keeping the naval power of the country in a good and effective state? Without saying any thing of the jealousy of other powers, and giving them full credit for peaceful intentions, he declared it to be his opinion, that the consciousness of a country's strength would be to rivals and opponents the best incentive to peace. We were called upon to adopt a decided tone in our foreign policy: how could we do so, except we were prepared to act, as well as to speak if necessary? There was a peculiar reason why, even in reference to the maintenance of peace, we should keep up our navy, and be prepared to make vigorous demonstrations if necessary. If a country were called upon suddenly to build and man ships for war, it was admitted that two years must pass (and those the most valuable and important years in a naval contest), before she would be able to defend herself with effect from a vigorous adversary, or to attack an opponent with advantage. Under the head of Marines, he had accounted for an increase of 3,000 men in our naval force of the present year as compared with 1817. He might here observe, that since 1817 events had occurred in the Mediterranean which were not foreseen at that period, and which consequently were not then provided for. He would add, that our naval force must partly depend upon that of other powers: and that last summer Russia had six sail of the line, France six or seven, and England eight sail of the line in the Mediterranean. Surely our proportion was not too much for a great maritime power to maintain under such circumstances. It was not too much when it was considered that Russia had assumed a belligerent aspect towards Turkey. But Government had taken the earliest opportunity of reducing its force, as far as it could consistently with the public interest and safety. In the last summer (although the Government had asked for only 30,000 men for the navy) it was necessary to employ 32,000. Thus the actual reduction of men in the present Estimate was not merely a reduction to 29,000 from a previous force of 30,000, but from 32,000, giving an actual reduction of 3,000 men in the department of the navy. The squadron in the Mediter-
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ranean would account for an addition of 5,300 men as compared to the force of 1817; 5,300 being employed in the Mediterranean in the summer more than at the beginning of the year. Adding this increased force of 5,300 to the 3,000 marines, he accounted for an increase of 8,300 in 1830 above the estimate of 1817. Then came the whole of the coast-blockade, which did not exist in 1817. It was perfectly true, that the coast-blockade was not to be considered as merely belonging to the navy—it was a guard against smuggling, and was prepared to perform a double service should it be required: in any exigency the men of the coast-blockade would man our ships. The coast-blockade accounted for an increase of 2,200 men; which, added to the preceding items, gave an addition of 10,500 (so accounted for) to the force of 1817. It only remained to mention the Packet-service; which was, however, merely a transfer from the Post-office to the Admiralty. It accounted for an increase of 700 men in the navy. We had thus an increase in the present year, as compared with 1817, of 11,200 men fully and satisfactorily accounted for; and Government might have fairly added to the navy by that amount; but so great an increase had not been made; a reduction of 1,200 men was made in some other respects, so that the total increase of 1830 upon 1827, amounted in the naval department to 10,000 men: the difference between 29,000 at the present, and 19,000 at the former period. Looking at the events of the last two years, at the station which we ought to hold as a maritime power, at the occurrences in the Mediterranean, at the dissensions in South America, which might by possibility affect our colonies, seeing the collisions between South American vessels and our own, looking at the war between Brazil and Buenos Ayres, at the fact of the new States of America not always adhering very scrupulously to the legitimate laws of warfare, of which they were partly ignorant, to which they were, perhaps, partially indifferent, looking at the nature of the warfare carried on there, considering all these things, it did seem necessary to have a strong naval force to control excesses in one quarter and observe the issue of events in another. If Gentlemen were aware of the repeated complaints made at the Admiralty, they would think that an increase in the navy was less to be deprecated than a

1139
decrease, which would not afford sufficient protection to our trade and commerce. All these circumstances made out a prima facie case for an increase of our naval force. He should not go further into matters of detail, as his hon. friend only proposed a vote for the number of men upon that occasion. Neither did he wish to fight a by-battle upon other matters, as had been done by hon. Gentlemen opposite. When the question came on as to the office of Treasurer of the Navy, he should be able to show that no censure could be justly cast upon Government, notwithstanding the motion of the hon. Baronet the Member for Cumberland, He trusted that the hon. Baronet would persist in his vote of censure upon Ministers, of which he had twice given notice, in order that they might take the sense of the House upon it. It would then be seen if Government deserved public reprobation for making an immediate saving of 1,000 l. a-year, by separating the offices of President of the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy, and for arranging a prospective saving by these means of 2,200 l., by doing away with the contingent salary of Paymaster of the Navy. He could not refer to the alteration without regretting the opportunity that gave rise to it. It increased the attachment and regret which he felt for his right hon. friend the late President of the Board of Trade, when he recollected that it was by his assiduous attention to the discharge of his public duties and labours that his health became unfortunately reduced to that state which rendered it impossible for him to continue longer in office. A man of his experience, activity, and talents, found himself by the labour of the two offices of President of the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy, such a victim to over-exertion and anxiety, arising out of his attention to the duties of them, that he was obliged to press upon his colleagues, against the will of every one of them, the necessity of his retirement. He could not conceive a more powerful proof of the necessity of separating those two offices, as Government had done. Nothing could have been more easy for Ministers than to fill up the offices as before. If they had done so, there would not have been one word of complaint, but they separated the offices because the joint labour was too great, and because they wished to effect a public saving. He hoped when the House came
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to take into consideration the hon. Baronet's motion, that it would take a liberal and enlarged view of the subject, that it would recollect what had been the consequence, within the last few years, of subjecting public men to excessive labour and exertion. As a proof of the spirit of economy which actuated the Government, he should mention that the Comptrollership of Army Accounts had become vacant by death, and, instead of showing a wish to appoint any body to the office, Ministers allowed it to remain vacant, thus effecting a considerable saving for the public. He might also take this occasion to state a circumstance which reflected infinite honour upon the present Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. That noble person, taking into consideration the amount of the salary of his high office (27,000 l.), and that it had been raised since 1797, as he assumed, in consequence of the increased price of articles of consumption and the diminished value of money, of his own accord submitted a proposition to Government to reduce his allowance from 27,000 l. to 20,000 l. a-year, making a reduction of 7,000 l. per annum upon the salary of one office alone. [hear, hear.] Under such circumstances he trusted, when the House came to dispose of the vote of censure upon Government to be proposed, and which had been twice postponed, by the hon. Baronet, that they would bear in mind the reductions that had been made, the whole course of policy adopted by Ministers, and above all, that they would not forget, whatever was the amount of expenditure of the present year, that Government had manifested no disposition to retain any part of the expenditure connected with patronage.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, the right hon. Gentleman seemed disposed to taunt him for postponing his motion: he would shortly state his reasons for its postponement. When he first heard of the appointment of Mr. F. Lewis, he was forcibly struck by the discrepancy between the resolution proposed and carried by Ministers, as an amendment on his own motion, and their conduct in disposing of the Treasurership of the Navy. The resolution of Ministers was, "that it is the opinion of this House that in every establishment of the State every saving-ought to be made consistently with the due performance of the public service, and without the violation of existing engagements;" this was agreed to on the 12th of

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February, and on the 15th the appointment of Mr. F. Lewis took place. It was clear that there were no "existing engagements" between Government and the right hon. Member for Radnorshire, for he was in his place on the 12th of February (which he could not have been if he had been newly appointed treasurer of the Navy,) and voted on the Motion. As to the public service, he denied that it would be benefitted by the change. The question was, could not a public saving have been effected by adding the Treasurership of the Navy to the office of Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, to that of first Commissioner of Woods and Forests, or to the Vice-presidency of the Board of Trade? Again, he said the right hon. Secretary taunted him with postponing his motion on the subject; he assured the right hon. Gentleman (notwithstanding the explanation offered on the subject) he pledged himself that the sense of the House should be taken on the question. The right hon. Gentleman might be justified in calling on him to bring forward his motion, but he should not have called it "a vote of censure" upon Ministers. What he promised to do was, to bring forward a resolution condemnatory of the mode in which the office of Treasurer of the Navy had recently been filled up. He did not say that he was prepared to propose a vote of censure. The right hon. Gentleman would permit him to judge when he should move a vote of censure on Ministers. Perhaps the time was near, but whenever he thought fit to do so, he should not take the right hon. Gentleman's advice as to the time or mode of doing it. Considering that the Bosphorus and Dardanelles were in the possession of Russia,—that France was arming in the Mediterranean and the Channel, that the fate of the ministry of Prince Polignac was now upon the balance, that it was supposed to be tottering to its fall, and that it was a cabinet which was generally supposed (right or wrong) to have emanated from the influence of the British Government,—viewing all these circumstances, and looking at our foreign policy and relations, he was not prepared to vote for a reduction of men in the navy; but was nevertheless for voting the present estimates only for six months, by which time he hoped that, according to the favourite phrase, all the clouds that now overhung
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the horizon might be dissipated, and when the real nature of our foreign policy, now studiously concealed, might perhaps be explained. Perhaps the hon. Baronet opposite would answer these simple questions. It had been stated that since June 1821, 150,000 l. had been saved upon salaries; but he now asked the hon. Member what had been the amount of superannuations since that period? And with respect to the superannuation, allowances granted to two sons of Cabinet Ministers, he asked whether they had not been made on account of offices from which the holders were re-moveable at pleasure?
Mr. Peelsaid, he had never presumed to advise the hon. Baronet on the subject of his Motion. The hon. Baronet twice gave notice of his intention to move a resolution condemnatory of the mode in which Government had filled up the office of Treasurer of the Navy; and after hearing the explanation offered to-night in reference to that transaction, the hon. Baronet still persisted in his resolution, and pledged himself to bring the question before the House: let the hon. Baronet do so. He repeated, he gave the hon. Baronet no advice on the subject: he only expressed a hope that the hon. Baronet would persevere in proposing a resolution "condemnatory of Government." The hon. Baronet appeared to draw a distinction without a difference between a "condemnatory resolution" and a "vote of censure" upon the Government. For his own part he could see no difference. He had already expressed a hope that the hon. Baronet would bring forward his resolution, which had certainly been twice postponed, and was now glad to hear that the hon. Baronet intended to do so. In saying this he was far from attempting to dictate to him, he would not even presume to advise the hon. Baronet; he only expressed a hope that the motion would be brought forward, in order to obtain the opinion of the House on the subject of the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonsaid, it would be destructive to the commerce of the country if our naval force were further reduced. He knew it to be a fact, that British merchant ships had more than once owed their safety to the protection of French men-of-war. It was disgraceful to the country.
Sir R. Wilsonbegged to slate his reasons for voting against the Amendment. While Spain was carrying on war against South America, he could not vote for reducing our seamen, because it would peril our commerce. Again, while Russia had a force of thirteen sail in the Black Sea, and of twelve sail in the Levant, and France was fitting out an expedition, he thought our Naval power would not bear reduction.
Sir John Wrottesleycontended, that the hon. Baronet opposite had not made out his case. He could not conceive any necessity for such a large force of Marines, for he knew that between 1790 and 1793 fifty regiments of the line had been embarked in the Navy, and he also knew that they had behaved in the most gallant manner. Sir G. Cockburn had only stated that Marines accustomed to the sea were better than land soldiers.
Sir G. Clerksaid that, with respect to the questions that had been put to him by the hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) opposite, he begged to observe, that the annuities and allowances of reduced officers were regulated by act of Parliament. As to the commissioners of the Navy and Victualling Boards, they could not properly be said to hold their offices for life. They were appointed by warrant, though it was not customary to remove them; and they were entitled to retire on a superannuation allowance of three-fourths of the salary of 1,000 l. a year.
Mr. George Lambsaid, that he could not have voted for the proposition of reducing the number of men, nor could he support the proposition that the vote should be taken for six months only, because he was unwilling, under existing circumstances, to give foreign nations an idea that we thought of nothing but reducing our force.
The House divided. For the Amendment 47; Against it 148.—Majority for the original Motion 101.

The following is a list of the Minority.

Bernal, R

Davenport, E.

Benett, J.

Davies, Colonel

Baring, Sir T.

Ebrington, Lord

Baring, B.

Euston, Lord

Buck, L. W.

Fazakerly, J. N.

Carter, H.

Fyler, T. B.

Calvert, C.

Guise, Sir W.

Denison, W. J.

Gordon, R.

Dawson, A.

Graham, Sir J.

Duncombe, T.

Hobhouse, J. Cam

1144

Honywood, W. P.

Rickford, W.

Heron, Sir R.

Robarts, A. W.

Ingilby, Sir W.

Robinson, Sir G.

Jephson, C. D.

Sibthorp, Col.

Labouchere, H.

Townshend, Lord C.

Martin, J.

Wrottesley, Sir J.

Macdonald, Sir J.

Webb, Col.

Maberly, J.

Whitmore, W. W.

Monck, J. B.

Warburton, H.

Morpeth, Lord

Wood, C.

O'Connell, D.

Wood, Ald.

Philips, G.

Whitbread, W.

Palmer, C. F.

Pallmer, N.

TELLER.

Protheroe, E.

Hume, J.

Sir George Clerkthen proposed the following Resolution—That 980,200 l. should be granted for wages, for the said 29,000 men, at the rate of 2l. 12 s. a man, a month.
Mr. Humeobjected to going on at that late hour.
Sir G. Clerkunderstood that, as the number of men had been voted, the hon. Member could have no objection to pay their wages. He assured the hon. Member that to delay this Resolution would be an inconvenience to the public service.
Mr. Humehad no wish to produce such an effect.
The Resolution was then agreed to, and the House resumed.

WAYS AND MEANS.
On the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the House went into a Committee on the Ways and Means.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerproposed a Resolution, that towards making-good the supply granted to his Majesty, the sum of 12,000,000 l. be raised by Exchequer-bills.
Mr. Gordontook this opportunity of asking the right hon. Gentleman if he intended to introduce a new set of Stamp Laws and to increase the Stamps on Legacies. He had heard in the legal profession that such was the intention of Government, and that it had already given rise to great speculation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that for some time past, the consolidation of the Stamp-laws had been under consideration, and that he hoped shortly to be able to lay the result before the House. It was natural that, the consolidation of acts should give rise to speculation, but, as to debate the subject at that time would tend to increase that speculation, he should abstain from entering into further particulars.
The Resolution was agreed to.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthen moved a Resolution,—That there should be issued and applied, for advances on account of Public Works, &c. any sums paid into the Exchequer by the 5th April, 1831.—Agreed to.
The next Resolution was,—That towards making good the supplies granted to his Majesty, there should be issued and applied the sum paid into the Exchequer before the 5th April 1831, by the Governor and Company of the Bank of England.
Mr. Humethought that the Bank ought to be paid less than it was at present for management.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the charge for management was a matter of engagement which could not be broken through.
Mr. Maberlythought it no more a matter of engagement than others which had been modified.
The Resolution was agreed to.
The next Resolution was, that towards making good the supplies granted to his Majesty, there be issued and applied the sum of 60,000 l., to be paid into the Exchequer by the East-India Company on account of Forces serving in India.
Mr. Humethought that the Company ought to pay more. They did not pay half enough.
The Resolution was agreed to.
The next Resolution was, that towards making good the supplies granted to his Majesty, there be issued and applied the sum of 80,785 l., being the surplus of Ways and Means in the years 1823, 1824, 1825, 1826, 1827, 1828, and 1829.—Agreed to.