Commons Sitting of 8 February 1830

MINUTES.
GERARD CALLAGHAN, Esq. took the Oath and his Seat for Cork City.—Sir J. MACDONALD moved for a new writ for Calne in the room of the Right Hon. James Abercrombie, Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer, Scotland; Sir C. COOTE moved for a new writ for Clonmell, in the room of James Hewitt Massey Dawson, Esq. Chiltern Hundreds; and Mr. G. LAMB moved for a now writ for Knaresborough in the room of the Right Hon. Geo. Tierney deceased.
Lord F. Osbornepresented a petition from Cambridge for the repeal of the Malt and Beer duties, and several other petitions from places in Cambridgeshire with like prayer, and praying for measures to alleviate the distressed state of agriculture.
Sir J. Grahampresented a petition from the County of Cumberland, complaining of the distress of the Agricultural and Mining population, praying the House to inquire whether those distresses were not brought on by the return to small payments in gold and silver, without a corresponding decrease at the same time in taxation. He did not intend to go into the whole of the important questions which the petition embraced until they came to be singly discussed. With regard, however, to the question whether the additional increase of the value of the currency is not an additional increase of taxation, he should take an early opportunity of moving that the amount of salary of all persons employed in the civil and military service of the country should be reduced to the scale of 1797, as far as was consistent with a strict regard to engagement and the effici-
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ency of the public service. His hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen, had, however, given notice of a motion on the same night which he intended moving (Friday). He should therefore beg of his hon. friend to allow his motion to take precedence: it would perhaps be a good preliminary to that of his hon. friend.
Mr. Humeobserved, in reply, that the motion the hon. member had given notice of would probably occupy some time; and, as he (Mr. Hume) did not wish to bring his own on late in the evening, he would postpone his own motion till Monday next; besides, it would take natural precedence of his motion: if there were to be reduction of expenditure the House would be more strongly justified in demanding diminution of taxation.
Mr. Alderman Woodmoved for accounts of the total number of Barrels of Beer exported from England and Scotland to Ireland, and from Ireland to England and Scotland; distinguishing the number of barrels so exported to each kingdom, as likewise the number of barrels exported from each kingdom to foreign countries, with the amount of drawback paid thereon from 5th January 1829 to 5th January 1830: of the quantity of all the different sorts of beer, stated by barrels, made in each year, from 5th January 1825 to 5th January 1830; the rates of duty per barrel in each year, and total amount thereof in each year in each kingdom; showing,

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so far as can be done, the number of quarters of malt used in each kingdom in each year in making that beer: of the number of barrels of strong beer exported in each year: of the number of barrels of strong, table, and intermediate beer, chargeable to the duties of Excise, brewed in England, Scotland, and Wales, from 5th January 1829 to 5th January 1830; distinguishing the number of barrels brewed within the limits of the chief Office of Excise, and within each of the several collections, particularizing the quantity brewed by public brewers, licensed victuallers, retail brewers, and intermediate brewers. Of the number of brewers, retail brewers, licensed victuallers, and intermediate brewers, in England, Scotland, and Wales; distinguishing the number of them within the limits of the chief Office of Excise, and each of the several collections, and setting forth the number of licensed victuallers who brew their own beer, during the above period. Of the total number of acres of land in Great Britain under the cultivation of hops, in the year 1829; distinguishing the number of acres in each parish. Of the duty on hops of the growth of the year 1829; distinguishing the districts, and the old from the new duty; of the quantity of hops exported from, and imported into, Great Britain; distinguishing the places, for the year ending 5th January 1830. Of the number of bushels of malt charged with duty in the United Kingdom, and the amount of duty thereon, separating each country, in each year from 5th January 1825 to 5th January 1830; distinguishing the quantity in each year used by brewers and victuallers, and the quantity used in the distillery, so far as the same can be ascertained. Of the number of bushels of malt made, and the amount of duties paid in each collection of Excise, upon the same, in the United Kingdom, from 5th January 1829 to 5th January 1830. Of the wine gallons of proof spirits that paid duty, in each kingdom, for the home consumption of that kingdom, in each year, from 10th October 1823 to 10th October 1825, and from 10th October 1825, to 5th January 1826, and imperial gallons of proof spirits, in each year, from 5th January 1826 to 5th January 1830, and showing for each kingdom, in each of these seven periods, the difference of gallons betwixt the whole that so paid duty, and what gallons malt drawback was paid on under 4 Geo. 4th, c. 94, and 6
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Geo. 4th, c. 58, as also the total difference of gallons, for each kingdom, during the whole period from 10th October 1823 to 5th January 1830. Of the imperial gallons of proof spirits distilled in each kingdom, exported from Scotland to England, from Ireland to England, and from Scotland to Ireland, and that paid duty in each kingdom for home consumption, the full rate of duty per imperial gallon applying to these spirits for home consumption in each kingdom, and amount thereof at that rate, in each quarter, from 5th January 1829 to 5th January 1830, and showing the totals of all these for each kingdom, and for the United Kingdom, for the year: of the amount of money paid distillers, in each kingdom, as drawback on malt, under 1 and 2 Geo. 4th, c. 82, from 5th January 1829 to 5th January 1830: and of the total number of gallons of proof spirits, of the manufacture of the United Kingdom, that paid duty, and the amount thereof for horse consumption, in each kingdom; also the total number of gallons of proof rum, brandy, geneva, and all other foreign spirits, that paid duty in each kingdom; the number of gallons of each kind, and the duty thereon for each kingdom; also, the total number of gallons of spirits of all kinds that paid duty, and total amount thereof, in each kingdom and total number of gallons, and total duty thereon, in the whole United Kingdom, in each year, from 5th January 1825 to 5th January 1830.
Mr. O'Connellpresented a petition on the subject of Negro Slavery. He said that by right of law, no man could be a slave; that if the law were to extend to the colonies, the case would be as it was here, the moment alleged slaves came within the reach of the remedy, of the lord chief justice's power, they were free. He should in the course of the session move a bill on this subject. The petition was from Cork.

ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
Mr. Secretary Peelappeared at the bar with, and presented His Majesty's Answer to, the Address on the Lords Commissioners Speech: it was as follows.—
I thank you for this loyal and dutiful Address.
I rely with confidence on your attachment and support, and you may depend upon my unwearied endeavours to main-

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tain the National Honour, and upon my constant and anxious disposition to watch with equal care over the interests of all classes of my subjects.
Ordered to be entered on the Journal.

SLAVES.
Mr. W. Peelthen presented the Order in Council for consolidating the several laws for improving the condition of Slaves in his majesty's colonies. [For which paper see the preceding report of the Lords.]
CORK CITY ELECTION.
Mr. O'Connellpresented a petition from Francis Lyons and others, complaining of the undue return of G. Callaghan, esq.—ordered to be taken into consideration upon Thursday the 25th day of this instant February, at the same time that the petition of Daniel Meagher, and others, electors, is ordered to be taken into consideration; and Mr. Speaker to issue his warrants for persons papers and records.
WEXFORD TOWS ELECTION.
A petition of Charles Roper, esq., and others, complaining of that election [presented 24th June 1829] was read:—ordered to be taken into consideration upon Tuesday the 2nd day of March next, at three of the clock in the afternoon; and Mr. Speaker to issue his warrants for persons papers and records.

MALT AND BEER.
Mr. Denisonpresented a petition from the Corn Market in London, praying—first, for the repeal of the Malttax;—secondly, that the trade in Beer should be free;—thirdly, that there should be a reduction in the army, navy, and civil list; and fourthly, that the interest on a debt contracted in one currency should not be paid in another. The hon. member for Essex (Mr. Western) had, on the first night of the session, called on members to state the condition in which they had left their constituents; and he, in obedience to that call, had, with sorrow, to declare that the farmers of Surrey were in the most distressing condition; most of them living upon their capital rather than their profits, and many of them worse off than the very labourers. And as to the agricultural labourers, their distress was extreme. He was as much disposed as any one to do full credit to the obligations which the country owed to the duke of
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Wellington; to him they were all indebted for the repeal of the Test and Corporation acts, and for the emancipation of the Catholics; much, however, still remained to be done, and all the country looked for reduction—not the reduction of a few paltry clerks, but of such offices as the Lord-lieutenancy of Ireland, together with every other useless place and sinecure.
Mr. Broughamsaid, though agreeing in the greater part of what had fallen from his hon. friend, yet he could not but deplore one observation which he had made and which certainly must have escaped him in the hurry of speaking. No one felt more strongly than he did the gratitude the country owed to the Duke of Wellington for a great portion of his public services, and more especially for the carrying of the great question of Catholic Emancipation. But with respect to the repeal of the Test and Corporation acts, the credit of that measure was due to his noble friend (lord J. Russell); and he (Mr. Brougham), therefore, could not sit still and suffer it to be said that the country had to thank the noble Duke for that measure. When the measure was brought forward by his noble friend, government opposed it; but after a majority of about forty in favour of it, the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Peel) withdrew his opposition, and certainly furthered the bill through its subsequent stages; and without the support of the Duke of Wellington in the other House, it was possible that the bill might have been there thrown out. These things were not immaterial, for in taking away the credit of carrying a measure, when it had been carried contrary to the fate which usually attended such measures, one motive that tended to induce public men to act was taken away.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, he had to complain of the mistake which had been made in attributing to Mr. Canning a determined opposition to the repeal of the Test and Corporation acts: all that his right hon. friend had contended against was, the passing of this measure by itself, to the detriment of the Roman Catholic question, which was the more important one.
Mr. W. Smith.—In private conversations which he had held with Mr. Canning, that gentleman declared that he would not oppose the repeal of the Test and Corporation acts when the proper opportunity for removing them arrived.
Sir R. Wilsonsaid, when Mr. Canning was asked whether he would assist in car-

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rying the repeal of the Test and Corporation acts, he expressed his unwillingness to do so, lest he might thereby injure the interests of the Roman Catholics.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, the hon. member for Surrey had proposed the abolishment of the Lord-lieutenancy of Ireland. To this he (Mr. O'Connell) objected. There were seven thousand persons in Dublin living on the charity of three-halfpence a day; and if the duke of Northumberland did not spend his thirty thousand pounds a-year (which he drew from this country) among them, there would be many more in the same condition, or those seven thousand would be still worse off. If the hon. gentleman wanted reduction, let him begin with the lords of the bed-chamber, the lords of the Admiralty, or the lords of the Treasury, and he should have his most cordial assistance.
Mr. Humesaid, if the hon. member for Clare was right in his principle, every sinecurist would have a right to say, "continue my income, and I will spend it for the good of the country." [hear, hear] The only question was, whether the duties of the Lord-lieutenant could not be dispensed with: he considered that they could be, and that the office might be usefully abolished.
Petition ordered to be printed.
Mr. Wodehousegave notice of his intention to bring in a bill, on Tuesday the 2nd of March, to alter the act of the 59th of the late king, entitled "An Act to amend the Laws for the Relief of the Poor"—as it regards the rating of the owners of lodging houses, and to extend it to all houses, &c. let under ten pounds a year.
Mr. Wodehousealso gave notice of his intention, after Easter, to move for a committee to inquire into the duties and regulations respecting sea-borne coals.

MEXICO—CUBA—SPAIN.
Sir Robert Wilsonwished to put some questions to the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) which he considered of a very serious character as regarded the due exercise of our power as a nation, and a just respect on our part for national good faith: he alluded to the subject of our conduct between Spain and the states of Colombia and Mexico [hear]. This was a matter of the most important nature, and one calling for the maturest consideration, in the present distressed state of the country; inas-
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much as it affected our commercial, manufacturing, and financial interests, in a very serious degree. The right hon. member for Liverpool (Mr. Huskisson), whom he trusted he might be permitted to call his right hon. friend, mentioned the subject the other evening, and a noble lord, on the occasion of voting the Address, had adverted to some of the circumstances connected with it; but both alluded to the facts of the case hypothetically, not being in possession of any authentic information on the subject. He was about to speak from authority, upon the evidence of facts and circumstances which had come within his own knowledge. In the year 1824, the South American governments, finding themselves much oppressed and harassed by the continuance of the Spanish war from the islands of Cuba and Porto Rico, determined to undertake an expedition against those islands. At that period Colombia had an army and maritime squadron commanded by admiral Brion: there was another force belonging to Mexico at Vera Cruz, under admiral Porter; and the united armaments were superior to any force that Spain could collect in that quarter of the globe. He trusted [there being much noise in the House at the time] that the subject would have a fair hearing, as it was a question upon the answer to which millions of property must depend, [hear] These preparations were proceeding, when Mr. Canning obtained information upon the subject, and being apprised of what was likely to occur, sent for Messrs. Hurtado and Michelano, the Colombian and Mexican envoys in this country; and told them, that having heard of the intention of their respective governments, and knowing that the preparations against Cuba were in an advanced state, it was his duty to inform them that it would be impossible for England to permit the expeditions to proceed, —that, independently of other matters, an armed force descending upon Cuba from the Spanish Main might occasion a negro insurrection, cause the establishment of another at St. Domingo, [hear] and be attended with circumstances of the mightiest and most deplorable calamity to all our West-Indian possessions. It was added that there also existed other collateral circumstances which rendered it extremely unadvisable that an expedition should proceed against Porto Rico or Cuba, at that period. Mr. Canning, in

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fact, gave Mr. Hurtado and Mr. Michalano notice that this country could not sanction the meditated attack, which must not be permitted to proceed. This was the nature of the communication made by Mr. Canning to the South American envoys, who apprised their respective governments of the circumstances. General Bolivar and the Mexican government acquiesced; in the wishes of this country and dispersed their forces; but at the same time forwarded a communication to the English government, through their envoys, stating that they trusted this deference to the wishes and compliance with the policy of Great Britain would not subject them to the inconvenience of attacks by armaments proceeding from Cuba and Porto Rico, with a view to a descent upon the Spanish Main. Afterwards, Spain, recovering herself from the effects of her internal difficulties, collected a considerable force at Cuba, and a squadron, under the command of admiral Laborde, swept the sea of all vessels belonging to the South American colonies. The government of those states being incapable of supporting the heavy expenses entailed upon them by the maintenance of naval armaments, had dispersed them, disbanded their men, and laid their vessels up in ordinary. It was under such circumstances that Mexico and Colombia applied to the British government to be protected from the menaced attacks about to be made upon them from Cuba and Porto Rico; and as they had given up their preparations against those places at the instance of this country, they asked to be made strictly neutral territories as respected them; they did not ask protection against direct attacks from Spain, but merely against armaments proceeding from Cuba and Porto Rico, which they had been prohibited by England from attacking. This took place in 1827; reclamations were made to the British government by the ministers of Mexico and Colombia, who represented all the evils that must arise from the threatened attacks, and called upon us for the protection to which they were entitled by the faith of treaties which guaranteed their respective countries as favourable treatment as any other states. When general Barrados's expedition was about to sail from Cuba, an application was made to the British admiral upon the station to prevent his sailing, but this was not granted, and the armament put to sea. That
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hope being disappointed, admiral Laborde put to sea, and general Barrados made his attack. But although the illusion ceased when the expedition failed—he meant the illusion which induced the Spanish government to suppose that if a small force planted the standard of Spain in South America, it would be speedily flocked to by numerous adherents.—Notwithstanding this illusion was dissipated by the defeat of the expedition, the evil did not cease here, for the South American governments were obliged to keep up the same expensive establishments as before, in order to be ready to repel invasion. Moreover, at the present moment, it was the more necessary that this state of things should not be permitted to continue, because it was well known in this country that the Spanish government, so far from abandoning its intention to recover possession of Mexico, was organizing another expedition for its conquest, the rendezvous of which was to be against Cuba. It was therefore now necessary to have a further understanding on the subject, that Mexico might no longer have reason to complain of our equivocal, or (if he might use the expression) partial neutrality; that our credit for national good faith, independence, and fair dealing might not be exposed to the suspicion of favouring despotism; and that the property embarked in that country might not suffer from predatory attacks, or by actual confiscation. He would mention two or three facts to show the great value of Mexico and Colombia to England, and the mischief which must ensue, not only to our national character, but to our internal condition, from a continuance of an unsettled state of things in those countries. When Admiral Laborde took the sea in 1827, and proceeded to Porto Rico, he learned that an insurrection had been planned in Colombia, and in consequence of this information hovered over the coast of Colombia for forty days, with troops and arms aboard; but hearing that no insurrection had broken out as he expected, he returned without accomplishing any thing decisive. But the direct consequence of his hovering about the coast was to oblige the commandant of Venezuela to collect a force to resist a descent, and call out the militia, so that a sum of 300,000 dollars, collected to meet dividends due to the British creditor, was devoted to defray the expenses necessarily incurred by these

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preparations, instead of finding its way to England. The same happened with regard to General Barrados's expedition. He had the best authority for what he was now about to state; namely, that an arrangement had been made by which the Mexican bondholders in this country were to have received their dividends in November, when, General Barrados having put to sea, and great expenses being incurred by the government of Mexico in consequence of his expedition, the funds intended for the payment of the bondholders were diverted to other purposes, and such an outlay of money was caused in Mexico, as to remove the hope of payment till (he apprehended) a distant day. What was the state of Mexico with regard to the advantages which it held out to England by an increased production of the precious metals, had been alluded to by the right hon. member for Liverpool (Mr. Huskisson) upon a former occasion: and it was proved that a necessity existed, as regarded our own circumstances, that we should do what we could for the internal security and improvement of a country from which so many advantages might be expected to accrue to England. These statements were perfectly capable of being verified by facts. In 1827, the mines of Mexico consumed only 379,379 lb. of quicksilver exported from this country: in 1828, the consumption of quicksilver was 361,351 lb.: but, during 1829, and up to the present month, 1,310,400 1b. weight of quicksilver had been exported. Could there be a greater proof of the increased working of the mines, and of the advantages which must accrue to us if the South American colonies were allowed full scope of improvement by the enjoyment of tranquillity, than was to be found in these simple statements? But this was not all—it was not merely the quantity, but the price of the quicksilver exported, that was to be taken into account. We find that in 1827 and 1828, the price of quicksilver was only 45 dollars a quintal, but during the last year it reached 80 and 100 dollars. It was clear that we must derive great commercial and financial advantages from an intercourse with the Spanish American states, under favourable circumstances: but it was not on this account alone, that he asked the government to consider the situation of these states, but upon still higher grounds. We ought to do nothing which would give a colour or foundation
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to accusations against this country of a partiality which must degrade us by affording currency to the idea that we were ready to abuse the power which we possessed, in contradiction to the faith of treaties; not to say that such abuse must collaterally affect our own interests. The questions which he had to propose to the right hon. gentleman were—1st, whether the prohibition, which went to restrain Mexico and Colombia from making any attempt upon Cuba or Porto Rico, was to be maintained?—2dly, if the prohibition were to be maintained, in that case, was the same restriction to be imposed upon Spain as far as Cuba and Porto Rico were concerned; and were these and the South American republics to be considered as strictly neutral territories in relation to one another? These were the inquiries which he wished to make; and which of course referred to the intermediate state of Guatemala. If such a prohibition had formerly existed against any hostile operations on the part of Mexico, he wished to know whether it would not now be considered in the nature of a dropped order in that House, and that Mexico would be at liberty, in the case of any further hostile interference from Spain, to invade Cuba, as long as she observed the obligations and acted according to the laws of war?
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, he could assure the hon. gentleman that on this, as upon every other occasion, it was his desire to answer any question put to his Majesty's Government in that House respecting the foreign policy of the country, as frankly and as clearly as was consistent with the general interests of the State. But he felt the questions now put to involve a point of such deep importance, that the House would excuse him if he did not content himself with giving a simple answer to the questions of the hon. Gentleman, but enter into a short explanation of the facts, and of the intentions and policy of the Government. When a noble friend of his on a former night put a question to him upon the same subject, he answered it upon the strength of his recollection; and if he then fell into any mistake as to the occurrences which had been referred to, he was sure the House would readily pardon him when they considered that seven or eight years had intervened since they took place, and since any circumstances had very particularly required him

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to refer to the several documents. But in the interval since that discussion he had referred to the documents, and found that his recollection upon all the substantial points was correct. He had stated his impression of the facts to be, that in the year 1823, Mr. Canning, then being Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, made a public declaration that England would not resist any attempt made by Spain to reestablish her power and authority over her revolted colonies. He declared that England could not interfere in any contest that might arise between the mother country and the colonies; but, at the same time Mr. Canning avowed that England would not recognize the right of any other foreign power to ally herself to Spain for the purpose of aiding her in such an attempt; that if it were made by the mother country, and by her own resources, then that this Government would not interfere, but observe a strict neutrality between the contending parties. His noble friend had said that something more was added, about the difficulty of maintaining a strict neutrality; and it had been further asserted that Mr. Canning prohibited any counter attempt upon Cuba on the part of the South American States. His answer to that was, that if any prohibition were issued by Mr. Canning, prohibiting Mexico from attacking Cuba, he was confident that it had been made upon some peculiar ground, involving perhaps the common interests of humanity, or some particular and paramount interest of this country. Though there was no record of a particular conference that had been referred to, he found upon examining the records of these transactions, that the view of Mr. Canning's motives had been the true one. In the notes of a conference between Mr. Canning and the Prince de Polignac, which took place on the 9th of October, 1823, he found that Mr. Canning made this important declaration: "That the British government would not only abstain from interfering to prevent Spain from resorting to any negotiations for the recovery of her colonies, but would aid her in such negotiations; and in any case be strictly neutral, even if war should be resorted to by Spain herself. But that, if Spain should form a junction with any other foreign power that should aid her in the war, then that the British government would consider another case to have arisen, and its conduct would be in-
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fluenced by other views." This was the ground taken by Mr. Canning, and he referred with pleasure to another part of the document, in which the Prince de Polignac, on the part of France, disclaimed in any case the intention of joining in hostile measures against the South American colonies. Thus far the declarations of Mr. Canning on the question were in their possession. He had no recollection of any others, and there was no record of any such prohibition as that which had been alluded to, the strictest search had been made but no record could be found. If any such had been made, the probability was, that it had been verbal; and of this he was certain—that it was made as an exception to the general rule, and justified by some peculiar considerations growing out of the circumstances of the case, either relating to the common interest of humanity, as he had said before, or to some paramount considerations of state. He had said that there was no record of the act, or of the motives which dictated it; but if Mr. Canning did make such a prohibition, he should think it rather referred to the manner in which the war was likely to be carried on. This he was bound to state in justice to the memory of Mr. Canning: so strongly did Mr. Canning feel the desire of promoting the tranquillity of the South American colonies—so anxious was he to prevent the revival or the opening of fresh hostilities between them and the mother country, that in the year 1824, just previous to our recognition of their independence, he offered Spain to guarantee to her the possession of Cuba, upon condition of her entering into negotiations, the basis of which should be, that their independence should be formally recognized, [hear] If, therefore, any such prohibition was ever declared by Mr. Canning, he was satisfied that it must have been made upon some special grounds. He was the more confirmed in this conclusion, because there was on the part of the United States of America a declaration of such an intended amicable interference, in which special grounds were pointed out. In a note of Mr. Clay, the minister of the United States, dated December, 1825, that government, then having recognized the independence of Mexico and the other republics, he declared its intention to preserve a strict neutrality in the case of a war between them and her former colo-

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nies. The terms of that declaration were, however, that if Spain should persist in carrying on war without the prospect of success, the republics of Colombia and Mexico would probably retaliate, by making an attack upon Cuba, that being the point d'appui from which Spain could carry on her operations; and that if a war carried into that island by the republics should prove to be one of a desolating nature, such as the putting of arms into the hands of one class of the inhabitants against another class, then it would be necessary for America to interfere and to prevent such a war of extermination from proceeding. This was the ground which America had taken. What she said was, that she would not interfere so long as the war was conducted on both sides according to the laws of civilized nations; but she would not see such a course taken as must lead to the depopulation of the island of Cuba, and leave it to be transferred to the possession of some European power. If Mr. Canning ever made any declaration, he was satisfied it must have been one of this nature. With regard to the recent expedition sent out by Spain against Mexico, it was, he believed, almost entirely sent from the Havannah. Almost the only person in it who proceeded from the mother country, he believed, was the commander of the troops. How then could this country interfere? He could assure the hon. gentleman, whatever he might think, that it would have been extremely difficult for England to have prevented the sailing of that expedition by remonstrance alone. So much for what had been done; and now for the intentions of the government as to the future. They felt a deep interest in the welfare and the prosperity of these infant States. They had recognized their independence, and were anxious to see that independence consolidated by their tranquillity, and by their security from foreign attack, so long as they gave no just cause of interference to other powers. He therefore hoped that the South American States would now turn to their own resources and be able to compose their internal quarrels; in that, he repeated, they would find their chief safe-guards against attacks from without. Ministers had hoped that Spain herself would ere now have been convinced of the propriety and policy, if not of recognizing their independence, at least of abstaining from ac-
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tual hostilities against the South American republics. They had hoped that she would at least have observed the principle upon which she proceeded in the contest with her Flemish colonies, where, long before there independence was recognized, she tacitly assented to a suspension of hostilities. The forbearance of Spain in that instance justified us in the hope that she would display like wisdom and moderation in this. And it might be here observed, that for several years she had abstained from issuing letters of marque against the States of South America, and so consulted the interests of humanity, and avoided many of the atrocities which, under the sanction of such an authority, had disgraced the flags of other nations. If there were a chance of the permanent revival of hostilities between Spain and South America, the policy of England would be—1st, to endeavour to effect an amicable termination of the contest, and to bring about a peace, a common object not less interesting to Spanish America than to ourselves; but if all our endeavours should fail,—if Spain determined to persevere in the attempt to recover possession of her colonies,—he had no difficulty in thus publicly declaring, on the part of his majesty's government, that so far as the laws and operations of civilized warfare were concerned, this country would for herself act between the contending parties on the principle of strict impartiality. [hear]
The conversation here dropped.

LORDS COMMISSIONERS SPEECH..
Mr. G. Lamb[on the motion that the Lords Commissioners Speech be taken into consideration], rose.—He said, he wished briefly to state his reasons for having voted for the Amendment to the Address on the first night of the session, not having had a previous opportunity of addressing the House, and finding himself compelled to differ from most of those with whom he generally acted, he felt bound to state shortly the grounds on which he gave that vote for the Amendment on the first day of the session. Some friends of his, upon that (the Opposition) side of the House, had stated that they voted for the Amendment through the delicate fear, not generally entertained in that quarter, of turning the ministers out. The hon. member for Norwich (Mr. W. Smith) vaunted his experience; though

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he held this opinion, his experience might have taught him that such a fear was chimerical. Many stated that they thought if the present Ministers were removed they would be followed by others, from whom they totally differed. If he had any confidence in Ministers (and he had none) he would still have voted for the Amendment, as containing a true representation of the state of the country, and a pledge of inquiry into measures of relief. It did not seem to him that gentlemen opposite had any measures of relief to propose. There certainly was an allusion to reductions in some quarter or another, but they were so ambiguous that no two persons could agree as to the quarter in which they were to be effected. Hitherto be had been a silent voter for a metallic currency, and he did not now wish the country to be deluged with paper; but looking at our condition, he doubted whether the last screw of the vice,—the withdrawal of the country small notes,—might not have added to the difficulties of the country. Whether the restriction of the one-pound notes had or had not done mischief, still he was not prepared to tell the country that he would not inquire into the subject. But if the Ministry were, as the hon. Mover of the Address had called them, Whigs at home, certainly he must say, that on the continent they were found to be most tremendous Tories. [hear] On these grounds he had supported the Amendment rather than the original Address, with respect to that part which related to the internal affairs of the Empire. If, however, the Ministers were accused of recklessness and carelessness of every thing connected with domestic policy, what was to be said with reference to their conduct upon every thing relating to Foreign Affairs? If Ministers were charged with too great a resemblance of Whigs in their management of domestic affairs, on the Continent they were considered the most confirmed Tories that ever appertained to any party in this country. [hear, hear] And he really felt there was but too much justice in the observations of the noble Lord, the Member for the University of Cambridge (Lord Palmerston), when he declared, on Friday evening, that the character of England was disgraced and detested on every part of the Continent. He confessed it was with the greatest pain and regret that he heard the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for the Home Department (Mr. Peel), hold so
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low a tone on the subject of the position of this country, with reference to the Continent, and almost admit that the fear of war was the sole cause of that temporising; system of policy which was so loudly complained of. That tone was indeed so low as to form a remarkable contrast with the language used scarcely two years ago by the Minister who then directed the councils of this country. The nation reposed confidence in Mr. Canning, because he had raised its name to that great and exalted station which it ought to occupy among the states of the Continent; and when he unhappily descended to the grave, he bequeathed to his country, as a legacy, an example of the consequences of a liberal but straight-forward and determined course of policy, which it was fondly hoped would be followed by his successors. The confidence, therefore, which the nation felt in Mr. Canning had been continued to his successors, and what had been the result? Why, that they had obtained the reputation of being considered the foes of every liberal institution, and of having leagued themselves in strict alliance with feeble sovereigns and bigoted ministers. [hear, hear] The whole mind of the people of these countries, whose good opinion, he contended, it was the true policy of England to maintain, had been alienated by this course, and, instead of being considered the friend, England was held to be the enemy of all liberal institutions. The whole feeling of the Continent was against England. He was told, however, by the right hon. Gentleman, that war must be avoided, and that this was the cause of their adopting the policy of non-interference; but he trusted that there would now be an end of the confidence which the country had reposed in them, as to the conduct of our foreign policy, who maintained such a doctrine. He would tell them that by their abstaining from all that was liberal and just, through the apprehensions of war, the time might come when the question would be, not whether they were to abstain from a particular act because it might lead to war, but whether they would not have war forced on them, and forced on them, too, when they had deprived themselves of the assistance and the good wishes of all the friends of freedom, and of every valuable ally. Having referred to that part of the Speech in which Portugal was mentioned, he observed, that as they were told all hope of a reconciliation

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between the two branches of the House of Braganza was at an end, they must now be prepared, he supposed, for the disgrace of the formal recognition of Don Miguel. How, he would ask, was this recognition to be effected? By what artifice was it to be managed? or after what form and in what language was the sovereign of Eng-land to enter into terms of amity and friendship with an usurper, who was acknowledged to have even broken the sacred word of royalty, or to have been guilty of crimes that would have crushed any private individual? Of the doctrine of non-interference, which the right hon. Gentleman had contended for, he should say no more than that it always appeared to him to labour under two objections—one was, that it was utterly impossible to persevere in it as a system; and the other was, that no nation in Europe would give this country credit for sincerity if it attempted it. [hear] As to another point, he trusted he should hear it denied that France owed her present ministry to the intrigue of the British cabinet. If it were true, it was the most profligate interference that ever disgraced any cabinet; any ministry. With respect to Turkey, the right hon. Gentleman had quoted the opinions of eminent statesmen in favour of the position that it was important to preserve the integrity of the Turkish Empire. But it was most unfortunate for the right hon. Gentleman and his argument that, at the very moment when this country for a long series of years had acknowledged Turkey as an ally, that moment Turkey found an enemy before the very gates of her capital. Now, whatever might be the well-merited diffidence with which the people of this country regarded the wisdom and experience of the present Ministers, with regard to our domestic and commercial policy they surely had been fully justified in placing the utmost reliance in their military knowledge, when they saw how many distinguished military men held situations in the present Administration—when they saw a field-martial Premier, and recollected the high rank and experience of his right hon. friend the Secretary of the Colonies (sir G. Murray), and of his other right hon. friend, who held so distinguished a place in the Ordnance (sir H. Hardinge), —they could not but feel surprise at the confidence which seemed to have been entertained with respect to the impregnability of the passes of the Balkan, after
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they saw they were travelled over by the enemy with as much ease as if it had been the turnpike road to Walmer Castle. [hear] He had declared he felt no confidence in the present Ministry; and if an individual so little distinguished as he was should be considered worthy of any reply, he trusted he should not be met with the hacknied language of Who are fit to take their places? He hoped he never should be told that the House of Commons did not supply a number of men who were well qualified to guide the councils of the country, and worthy of the confidence of the Sovereign. It had been the fashion of late to fill the posts of Administration by recruiting among the ranks of their enemies:—the present had gone all round the House for support. They had come to the Opposition benches for a Paymaster of the Forces (Mr. Calcraft); then they sought an Attorney General (Sir J. Scarlett), from among the Whigs. They sought for a Master of the Mint in an hon. Member who had been amongst their greatest opponents; and unless they made another turn, and took a "saint" into their councils, he knew not what could save them. [hear and a laugh] He looked on this, not as an attempt to increase the strength of the Ministry, but as means adopted to soften hostility; and he objected to it as calculated to destroy the independence of the House of Commons by endeavouring to put an end to the existence of parties, and rendering every man in it an official expectant, [hear] He begged pardon for troubling the House so much at length; but he felt strongly on these subjects, and he knew this was the only occasion on which he could state his opinions.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, he trusted the House would indulge him for a very few moments, while he endeavoured to explain one or two points of his former observations, which had been very much misconstrued by the hon. Member for Dungarvon (Mr. Lamb). That hon. Member had assumed that he (Mr. Peel) argued for the necessity and propriety of non-interference, on the ground, that they could not depart from that course, through the fear of being called on to engage in war. Now, so cautious had he been against any misconstruction of his language with regard to war, that throughout the whole of the observations he addressed to the House on the subject of the foreign policy of the country, he most studiously avoided the

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mention of the word peace, without at the same time declaring that peace was not worth having, unless it could be preserved in a manner consistent with the honour and interest of the country and the integrity of its power; and he repeated, that he did so expressly for the purpose of avoiding that very misrepresentation—a misconstruction into which the hon. Member for Dungarvon, he had no doubt quite undesignedly, had fallen on this occasion. England might well afford to avow her love of peace; because she was strong enough and powerful enough to feel no fear of the consequences of war: and, (said Mr. Peel) let me tell those who ascribe such motives to this country, that those who have from principle, from humanity, and from a sense of its good policy, laboured to maintain a just peace among nations, will always be found the most able to sustain the consequences of a just and necessary war. [hear] I shall take leave to add one word on a subject to which the hon. Member has also alluded very pointedly, in the course of his speech, and which I know has made considerable impression, both here and elsewhere. The hon. Gentleman has in effect declared, that it is well known both in France and in England that the present Ministry of France owes its appointment to the Government of this country. I have no doubt that the other impressions of the hon. Member are founded on authority equally erroneous; but of that I shall now say at once, there never was any report so utterly unfounded, so wholly devoid of truth, as that any communication, either direct or indirect, was sent by any individual holding any situation in the Government of this country to any member of any party, or holding any situation in France, with respect to the appointment of prince Polignac to the head of its ministry, [hear, hear]
Lord Mandevillesaid, he could not lose the opportunity of expressing his approbation of that part of his Majesty's Speech which promised a reform of the Court of Chancery; and observed, that although it must be admitted there was considerable distress at present, he hoped the day was not far distant when the country would again enjoy prosperity.
Mr. Alderman Waithmansaid, he thought it necessary to observe, that although his Majesty's Speech declared the distress to be temporary, and confined to the agricul-
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turists, it would be found that it extended to almost every class in the country. No notice was taken of the retail dealer; but it had been asserted in another place, that their prosperity was a proof of the limited nature of the distress; an assertion which he had heard of with amazement. He did not know where the Ministers got the information; but he, who knew a little more of the retail trade than they did, could tell them that the trade was suffering greater losses than it ever sustained before, as the numerous bankruptcies and insolvencies would abundantly prove, [hear] The members of his Majesty's Government, probably, drew their opinions of the prosperity of trade from the exhibition of a number of fine shops in Regent-street, which, he supposed, they sometimes visited in their rides; but he could tell them that the prosperity there and elsewhere was more in appearance than in reality, as the several failures fully proved. Five out of every six failed in business, and all confidence was lost between man and man. This was the state of the retail dealers; their distress was as great or greater than even that of the agriculturists; and, for his part, he would say, that he had no confidence left in the Ministry; and he believed, in saying so, he repeated the opinions of the great majority of the people. His constituents would have petitioned the House on the subject of the great distresses of the metropolis and of the country, and of the retail dealers amongst others, only they had thought it would be well to wait to see what were the remedies of the Ministers to alleviate the general distress. None being proposed, there was just ground for the withdrawal of all confidence in them. [hear]
Mr. Robinsonbegged to state that he had voted for the Amendment the other night merely because it stated more truth than the Address. At the same time, he approved of the pacific policy recommended in the Speech, and enforced by the Ministers, and he was not one of those who desired any alteration in the currency. He meant to vote for all inquiries that should be proposed this session, and in that spirit he voted for the Amendment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had warned them against voting for the Amendment, on the supposition that the hon. Baronet (Sir Edward Knatchbull) was actuated by some sinister motive in pro-

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posing it. Now he believed the hon. Baronet to be incapable of such conduct; but, for his own part, his vote was given without any sinister motive.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the hon. Member who had just sat down had somewhat irregularly charged him with having imputed sinister motives to the hon. Member for Kent. Now he was too old a Member of Parliament not to know that it was improper to impute any motives to hon. Members, and as far as the hon. Member for Kent was concerned, he was the last man to whom he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should be inclined to impute sinister motives.
Lord Normanbyonly begged to say one word upon a subject to which so many gentlemen had adverted,—he meant our foreign policy, and the estimation in which we were held on the Continent. Certainly, in the eyes of foreigners, the whole tenour of our foreign policy was changed. They believed it to be the very reverse of that upon which we had acted two years ago. How we should recover the character we had thus lost he did not know; we could not do better than to act honestly and profess sincerely, but he feared it would be a long time first, though he was convinced that the declaration, which he had heard with so much pleasure from the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) that night, would be sincerely acted on.
Mr. H. Davissaid, he had heard one or two circumstances within the last few days, which went far to illustrate the partial nature of the distress. He had conversed with a gentleman connected with a great manufacturing house in Gloucestershire, who told him that their business was so good that the house had written to him to take no more orders, as they could not in six months comply with all they had already received, and that every hand which they had ever employed was in full work. He had also dined the other day with a gentleman who had been lately in Dublin, in Ireland, [a laugh] and who had extensive connection with the receivers of rents in Ireland; and that gentleman told him, that in one estate of 30,000 l. a year, there had not been one single defaulter. In others the payments were as good, and altogether the agriculturists were flourishing in Ireland. He mentioned this as a proof that the distress was not universal. He believed that the withdrawal of the small notes so suddenly
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might have produced much distress; and he did not see why bankers should not be allowed to issue notes as formerly, if they gave adequate security to meet their issues.
Mr. Sadlersaid, it was quite unfair to urge the prosperous condition of some districts, or the thriving trade carried on by certain overgrown capitalists engaged in manufactures, as proofs of the general prosperity of the country. Such statements were calculated only to mislead the public mind, if, indeed, it did not already too severely feel the general pressure to be misled by any statements to the contrary. The hon. Member had stated, that a great number of hands were employed by the manufacturers; but the fact was, that in many cases those hands were retained in order that they might have the means of existence. He also differed entirely from some hon. Members in attributing the distress which existed in the agricultural districts to a bad harvest. He had never asserted that the distress in the country was so universal that there was no instance to be found of a single class of persons by whom it was not felt. He admitted that there were some exceptions to the universality; but, as in other cases, the exceptions only established the general rule. The members of the Stock Exchange, the great capitalists, for example, were probably among those exceptions. But the industrious and productive classes of the people, those by whom the greater number of the Members of that House were sent thither, were suffering severe distress. Attempts had been made by various hon. Members to understate the real condition of the country's affairs; but there were sources of information which, if they would apply to them, would show them the fact. If they wished to know the state of the commercial interest, let them look at the bankrupt list; if they wished to know the state of the lower classes, let them look at the amount of the poor-rates: those were the best criteria by which they could judge of the general state of the country. He had that morning seen a document, the result of a meeting in a populous district near Manchester. This document was signed by the Chairman; and it stated that the distress was overwhelming. He would abstain from saying anything on the state of the currency, because that was a subject which would probably soon be brought under the consideration of the

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House, when he should perhaps offer a few observations upon it.
Sir J. Stewartsaid, he had supported the Address, because he could not concur with those members who drew so melancholy a picture of the state of the country. He had recently returned from Scotland, and certainly he had not seen any thing of the agricultural distress which some gentlemen talked of. There might, it was true, be some delay in the collection of rents as compared with former years, but there was nothing of that overwhelming distress of which he had heard. Whatever of distress was felt, and he did not deny that some existed, arose from the state of the seasons, and from other causes which human foresight could not have prevented He denied the accuracy of the statement that the distress in Scotland was severe, and unprecedented. The harvest of 1828 had exceeded in Scotland the general average in England; so that the Scotch had been enabled to export corn to supply the markets of England. He was satisfied that the distress in England arose from circumstances over which it was impossible that either his Majesty's Ministers or any other persons could have any control.
Mr. O'Councilrose merely for the purpose of adverting to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Bristol with respect to the state of Ireland, and he must observe that he had that morning received letters in which the distress existing in that country was painted in the strongest colours. He was sure that nothing would strike the Irish people with more astonishment than to hear that any doubt was entertained in this country of the distress under which they were labouring.
Mr. Fylersaid, he could bear testimony to the existence of extreme distress in those parts of the country with which he was acquainted. In the city and county of the city of Coventry, and in many parts of Warwickshire, and in other places, there were thousands in such a state of distress as not to be able to support themselves. He could also state from information received from the directors of the poor, that many persons who were formerly in comfortable circumstances were in that state, that they were withheld solely by feelings of shame from receiving parochial aid. In one district of the county of Warwick, there was a parish containing
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a mixture of manufacturers and agriculturists. The population amounted to seven thousand one hundred persons, on a space of six thousand five hundred acres. Of these there were two thousand receiving parochial relief,—two thousand one hundred not receiving relief, but not able to contribute any thing to the rates, the whole weight of which was borne by five hundred heads of families, the representatives of the other inhabitants. Thus, it might be said, that in some instances, one individual was nearly supporting ten persons. These were facts which spoke for themselves, and no doubt many similar could be adduced, if every hon. Member were to answer the call that had been made upon him, and state candidly what was the actual condition of the people in that part of the country with which he was connected. All he could learn proved that the distress of the productive classes—instead of being partial, was general and universal. He contended that the arguments as to the prosperous state of the country which had been drawn from the increase of our exports and the increased business on some of our canals, were utterly without foundation. To prove that these were instances of prosperity, it should be shown that the increased exports were a profitable and not a losing-trade, and that the increased business on the canals which had been named, had not been the result of the diversion of the trade of other canals in that particular direction, or the result of the diminution of land-carriage in the same line. He rejoiced at the manly view which had been taken of the state of the country by the right hon. Member for Liverpool, (Mr. Huskisson) and he hoped that that right hon. Gentleman, seeing the course which had been adopted by so many other states with respect to their trade, would feel it necessary to reconsider the subject of the free-trade system. He was glad to hear the promise of economy which had been held out in the Speech, but he was sure the noble Duke at the head of the Government, to do any thing effectual, must bring down our expenditure to the level of the country's means, or raise our resources so as to enable the country to meet such an expenditure.
Mr. A. Baringsaid, he did not rise on this endless subject to follow any of the several hon. Members who had preceded him into the theories which each raised as

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to the causes of the present distress. It was not to be denied that distress existed at present in the country to an extent which had not been felt for many years; and it was the more severely felt, because now, at the end of fifteen years of peace, when we had reason to expect that our condition would be much improved, it was rather in a worse condition than at the commencement of that period. Reason upon it which way they would, we could not shut our eyes to the fact, and it struck him as useless to be endeavouring to ascribe it to this or that particular cause, for to no one of the causes mentioned could it be fairly ascribed. It would be better therefore to apply ourselves to the remedy: distress so general in its nature must be ascribed to some general cause. He was ready to confess his ignorance of the general operating cause, but he had his own opinion as to the several causes which had been assigned, but he owned he could not bring himself to believe that it was to be attributed to any one of them; let it be recollected that if we felt distress, we were not the only nation in that condition: it pervaded every country, from one end of Europe to the other, and extended to countries beyond the Atlantic. The situation of England was not peculiar, [hear] Distress, then, which was so general in its extent must, as he had stated, have some general cause. That in a country like ours, with such vast and complicated sources of trade and industry, the effects should be more severely felt than among nations whose mode of trade and commerce were more simple and less extensive, should not excite surprise; but as it was felt to a greater or less extent in all, it would be idle to attribute it to the operation of this or that particular measure, but to some general cause pervading the whole: what that cause was, he must own he could not state, but he thought that man must be extremely ignorant of the nature and extent of the evil who should say, "Government must know it; Government must apply the remedy;" or, as the fanners said in some places, "Government must do some' at." What could the Government, or what could that House, do to remedy the evil? He should like to see any man point out the course that ought to be pursued, and say "that's the remedy." He should be happy to concur in any inquiry that might lead them to
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as certain the cause, or causes of the distress; but, he must indeed be an ignorant man who, looking at the reports of the many committees which had sat for the last ten or twelve years to consider of almost every public question affecting the national welfare, should say, that that House at least had not been earnestly employed in inquiring into our condition. [hear] No blame could attach to them for not devising some general remedy. At the same time, if any hon. Member should bring forward any specific plan, he should be happy to give it his support when he saw what it was, if it should be one which would tend to remove the evil complained of. He would admit with those gentlemen who advocated the agricultural interest, that that body was suffering in a greater degree than any other class of the community. Yet it would not be denied that this distress existed without any very low prices of corn; for corn was not on the average at a higher price for the last five years than it was last year, and up to the present time. But the difficulty felt by agriculturists was this: they had two bad years, and the farmer, owing to the nature of the Corn-laws, obtained in one year the high price which would be a compensation to him for low prices in the preceding. Of these laws, however, the farmer could not complain, for they were made for his protection. He might, perhaps, say, that he had not that protection to which he was entitled. In his opinion, a higher rate of protection to the farmer could not be compensated by him to the country in a year of great scarcity; and if he obtained it, it would be at the expense of a starving population, [hear] It had always been a doubt in his mind whether the country could stand that kind of protection which the agricultural interest required. At the same time he would not do away with those Coin-laws which now existed, for that would be in effect to dispossess an immense portion of the landowners; for such were the charges upon land in a variety of shapes, that if protection were withdrawn, it would leave the present landowners little more than mere nominal proprietorship. Nine-tenths of the property of the country were suffering under mortgage and incumbrances. It was therefore only in a case of the greatest necessity that be could consent to any alteration in the present system of our

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Corn-laws. Yet still be owned that the question altogether was a problem which had not yet been solved: for he doubted whether the manufacturers could afford the protection required by the agriculturists. The question of the currency had been touched upon by many gentlemen who had very different views respecting it. He was not going to enter upon it at that time, but he must admit that the withdrawing of the small-note circulation, however much he considered it as a measure of sound policy, was still one which had been productive of much suffering. He had concurred in it on the ground he had stated, for he believed that the continuance of that currency would be productive of evils much worse than its removal had created; he had always contemplated that the withdrawal of the small-note circulation would be attended with sonic suffering, but that the removal had created mere suffering and distress than had been anticipated at the time, he could not deny. [hear] But he did not think that the evil was such as to create a main ingredient in the present general distress. It was said, in answer to the objections against the removal of the small-notes, that there was at present a greater money circulation in the country than existed when the notes were issued. That might be true; but then it did not circulate into those minute channels through which the small country notes passed, and by which much activity of business was kept up in small towns. It was in those places that the loss of the small-note circulation pinched most severely. In such places there was usually a small banker whose notes circulated in the town and a little district round it, beyond which they scarcely ever went. Their circulation kept up and gave energy to the small circle in which it moved. He would readily admit that the system, as it was carried on, was open to a thousand objections, and was liable to serious abuses; but the impression on his mind, as to the result of the withdrawal of the paper circulation from such places, was—that though it formed part of a general measure, which on the whole was salutary, yet it left to those places no adequate compensation. To the man in middling circumstances, who had long felt the benefit of the small bank in his neighbourhood, and who now deplored the loss of its small-note issues and
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complained of a want of circulation and accommodation, it was no answer to say, "There's plenty of cash to be had in Lombard-street: money never was so plentiful." [hear] That might be true; but, in Lombard-street, the credit and connections upon which he could have obtained assistance from the small banker in his own town were wholly unknown. The branch banks, established in several parts of the country, though they tended in a great measure to lessen the inconvenience, did not so extend their dealing; as to meet the kind of cases to which he had alluded.
With all these inconveniences, he must repeat that he was one of those who would not easily yield to a restoration of the paper-currency as it had existed, he should assent with regret to any renewal of it. He did not think that the distresses generally felt were the effects of the removal of a paper circulation, nor did he think those he had alluded to more particularly as the effects of the withdrawal of that circulation in small towns were hopeless of remedy without the recurrence to that system. He could not see cause for that despondencey which some expressed. The distress of the manufacturers he admitted to a certain extent; but, compared with the condition of other interests, they were in a state of prosperity. It was no proof of distress in manufacturing districts to say that business was absorbed by a few large capitalists, for these things should be considered in the general state of the trade. The iron trade and the silk trade were certainly suffering most deeply; but he believed that the woollen trade of Yorkshire, notwithstanding the representations of a honourable Member, (Mr. Sadler) was by no means in a state of distress. Although it, no doubt, did not now enjoy the prosperity which it enjoyed in former times, he had seen a letter, in which it was stated that the manufacturers had nothing to complain of. Great complaints had been made of the distress occasioned by the introduction of machinery. It was certainly true, that to take labour from the hand, and to perform it by a steam-engine, was the cause of great individual injury, which was much to be lamented. It was like the consolidation of a number of small farms into a large and overgrown one. But it was one of the natural operations of

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industry and knowledge; one of those operations which all the best authorities on the subject concurred in declaring ought to be left unshackled by any legislative interference. The trade or agriculture must still be considered as a whole, without reference to the minor changes which may have taken place in its mode of management. Having said thus much on the chief topics which had been introduced into the discussion connected with our internal economy, he would now say a word as to another subject which bad been introduced—he meant our Foreign Policy; and on this he owned he differed widely from those who blamed the Government of this country for non-interference in foreign disputes. Some gentlemen who from year to year spent their summers in travelling on the Continent, and who did not meet in the several towns through which they passed with all that attention which they considered due to them—who were not considered sufficiently important to be received with marked distinction, and to form a topic of conversation at the tables d'hâte, took it, forsooth, into their heads, that Englishmen were not respected! and that the English name was brought into contempt, because its Government was not constantly interfering in every squabble in the continental courts, [hear] In the policy adopted by France, Prussia, Austria, and other continental Powers, many things might be important in continental affairs, which to us, situated as we were, ought to be matters of utter indifference; for in our insular position, if a province of France, or the Netherlands, or any other continental state, were offered to us, he did not suppose there were ten men in the country so senseless as to think we ought to accept it. It was sufficient for us to take care that danger did not come too near our own shores: but it would be beneath our dignity to enter into those squabbles in which some would involve us. It might, indeed, be matter of importance to take care what Power was placed at the mouth of the Tagus or the Scheldt, but we should be utterly indifferent to the squabbles which might take place among the petty princes of Germany, or other small Powers with which we had no concern. Undoubtedly, our long relations, political and commercial, with Portugal, rendered the affairs of that
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country matters in which we were interested, but this did not extend to an interference in her internal government. It was true that Don Miguel who now occupied the throne of that kingdom was a disgrace to the crowned heads of Europe, but nevertheless, he (Mr. Baring) felt grateful to our Government, that it did not go to war for the purpose of removing him. He would prefer that the authority of the other claimant of the crown should be triumphant and be recognized; but why we should involve ourselves in war to procure the recognition was what he could not see. Nothing, he believed, was more generally acknowledged by all parties than the expediency of adhering to a pacific policy in the present state of the country. Foreign peace and domestic good order would produce tangible benefits which must prove equally advantageous to the agricultural, manufacturing, and commercial interests, and in short to the people at large, into whatever classifications they may be nominally subdivided.
Amongst other topics, he could not overlook the happy results which had followed a late important measure for restoring tranquillity to part of his Majesty's dominions. He alluded to the complete pacification of Ireland, and was gratified at length to see the conclusion which had been put to that solemn mockery so long subsisting in defiance at once of the Legislature and the Government. [hear]
On the subject of our relations with Mexico, he could not express himself with so much satisfaction. While that country continues in its existing anomalous and unsettled condition, it must be placed under the temporary domination of one military chieftain or another—such as Santa Anna or Bolivar,—and various evils, which will more or less affect ourselves must ensue. Those who venture money would of course be obliged to take their chance; but such a state of things must necessarily prevent the growth and settlement of their civil establishments, and the capital invested by English merchants in mines and otherwise would be so far embarrassed, if not put in jeopardy altogether. The attempts on the part of Spain to recover her colonies had already proved unavailing; and he thought it was now high time to see a proper footing established from henceforward between them. We at least ought to have observed a consistent course

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of conduct between the parties. If interference was justifiable in the case of the Mexicans as assaillants, we had surely an equal right to interpose when Barrados made his descent from the Island of Cuba. This project was executed so late as 1829, and yet with no better success than before. Since 1823, when the declaration was made, no change had taken place, although the interval consisted of no less a space of time than seven years. The whole political world were now satisfied to conviction that the efforts of Spain had been totally abortive and unavailing, and that the question was therefore solved against her. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman opposite would be induced by those considerations to use their most earnest persuasions with the Spanish monarchy, in order to attain a permanent cessation of hostilities. According" to the present tone of Ministerial arguments, it would appear that the principle of de facto government was likely to be maintained in the case of Portugal; and if so, undoubtedly the same argument would apply here. Mexico likewise had a de facto government, which was undisturbed by any of the attempts which had been hitherto directed against it. [hear] He would ask whether Spain was so scrupulous in the struggle between England and her colonies? Did she wait until belligerent operations had terminated, and peace was declared? No, on the contrary, that state interfered in the very middle of the war, and acknowledged, with a premature alacrity, the independence of the English colonies. Then might not the, argumentum ad hominem be justly applied to Spain, [hear]
He took this opportunity of expressing his sentiments, as he had not done so on the first day of the session. Before he sat down, in justice to the Ministers, he must say, that judging of the general operation of their measures throughout the country, he could discover nothing of an unfortunate character which could with propriety be laid at the door of Government, and he should, on that account, be sorry to see the Administration embarrassed or disturbed, [hear, hear]
Mr. Attwoodsaid, he by no means agreed with the opinions of the hon. Gentleman, who seemed to think that all the measures of the existing Ministry had tended to promote the general interest of the country, and had been the result of deliberate wis-
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dom and prudent political calculation. He could not agree that the cause of the distress was not attributable to Ministers. In sentiments couched in such sweeping and unequivocal terms, he could not acquiesce. The notoriously distressed and disastrous state of the British population offered, in his judgment, a decided contradiction to so unmerited a panegyric. Our general impoverishment was very easy of explanation, being mainly attributable to the change in the currency and the consequent alteration of the value of money. That single measure (which it was said would only effect a charge to the extent of 3 per cent) had imposed an additional burthen of 25, 30, or 40 per cent on every man in the community, in all cases of deed, mortgage, settlement, or contract. It had been first introduced in 1819, but the public distress prevented its being brought into immediate operation. It was grappled with again in 1823, and in the year 1826, the system might be considered to be perfectly matured and carried into effect. He regretted that his hon. friend had deemed it fitting to indulge so much in a laudatory strain; as, for his own part, he should wish to witness more of modesty within doors, and less of vituperation without. Every one was by this time aware that the nation in general entertained but an humble opinion of the wisdom of Parliament. The people reproached their representatives collectively with inefficiency for the adequate discharge of the great functions which were imposed on them as Members of that House. The operations of the Legislature had originated the distress, and were also calculated still further to increase it. The report of the Committee of Inquiry into the state of agriculture in the year 1824 supported the opinions which he had always expressed upon the subject. He could not allow the hon. Member (Mr. Baring's) remarks to pass unnoticed, because they were at variance with many positions formerly maintained by him [hear].
Mr. Trantsaid, he wished to know what was to become of the farmer, or how he was to gain a livelihood, when told by a high parliamentary authority that overproduction was the cause of all his distress? When the loaf was 1s. 2d. the farmer was much better off. As to the other classes, and equal sufferers, he should only say that they might legislate

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how they would, but while manufactures were to be produced by boiling a kettle, so long would starvation dog the artisan who had been bred to work in a manufactory for his support.
Mr. Maberlysaid, he was of opinion that it would be highly impolitic for the Legislature to extend a remunerative protection to the agricultural interest any more than to those who were concerned in cotton, iron, or linen. Agriculture ought to be protected only in the same ratio with whatever else paid a duty; for example— in the same proportion with glass. The profits of agriculture were abated by the payment of tithes, which so far entitled the parties interested to be placed on a footing-similar with those rated in another form. He attributed the distress of such numbers of the people to the want of a local circulation; and in practical proof of the correctness of such reasoning he could demonstrate that money was scarce broughout the whole of the kingdom, while on the other hand articles of consumption were plentiful. It was very possible that the real privations of the people were, in a great degree, to be ascribed to the affluence and strength of the national resources. In his elaborate treatise on political economy, Mr. Ricardo, if he remembered rightly, had explained the principle by stating that when great and opulent nations had a redundancy of wealth, capital naturally competed with capital, and in the end produced low profits to the working classes: yet that low profits were proofs not of poverty but of wealth. Thus, although the wealth of the country might continue the same, public distress would nevertheless arise. To this state of things, in his opinion, we had now come. He apprehended that the people would for a long time suffer from low prices; and yet perhaps, high prices were the greater evil of the two. If labour were remunerated at high wages, we could not exchange it profitably in other parts of the world, and so bad would become worse. As to steam machinery, he considered it a principal source of our prosperity. In fact, it was to that we were chiefly indebted for our ability to pay taxes. [hear] He hoped, that Ministers would adopt his recent suggestion with respect to the currency, as it would prove a material and grateful relief to all ranks of the people.
Mr. Humesaid, he hoped, that before the House should be called on to vote the supplies, Ministers would lay before them a statement of the promised reductions in public expenditure. The custom had been too much neglected of late years, but he expected that a complete preliminary view of ways and means would on this occasion be submitted. Indeed, in the event of any reluctance to do so being manifested, the House would be wanting to itself if it proved backward to enforce it; he for one should use his utmost endeavour to enforce such preliminary explanation.
The motion, pro forma, that the House go into a Committee on the Speech was then agreed to.

COMPOSITIONS FOR TITHES.
Mr. Greenerose to move for leave to bring in a bill to enable incumbents of livings in England and Wales to enter into renewable Compositions for their Tithes, by agreement with the owners of land in their respective parishes. He conceived it to be needless to detain the House at any length, in moving for leave to bring-in the bill. Addressing landowners, he need not inform them of the inconveniences they sustained from the present system of tithes; and an extensive correspondence in which he had been engaged with parochial clergy, satisfied him that they were as anxious as the landholders for some change in the mode of collecting tithe. He felt the importance of not approaching such a subject rashly and inconsiderately; and he was therefore glad to avail himself of the precedent, which had been set in the numerous private acts passed on this subject. To each of these the consents of the bishop, the patron, the incumbent, and the landowners, had been given, and he therefore felt assured, that from a measure following strictly the course that had been adopted in them, no injury could accrue to any party. The present bill was of a permissive nature. It only went to authorise the appointment of commissioners at once, instead of requiring a private act in every instance. Those commissioners being necessarily men of education—men placed beyond, the suspicion of countenancing anything unfair—justice might reasonably be expected to be done to all parties. They would be judges of the reports of the tithe valuers, by whom the, value of the tithes

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of any parish for the preceding fourteen years should be ascertained, and whatever that might prove should be affixed as a rent-charge upon the parish for ever, variable, however, by averages of the price of wheat to be struck every seven years, so as to meet the changes in the value of money. In order further to provide against alterations which might take place in the value of agricultural produce, inclosure and improvement of land, each party at the end of twenty-one years might call for a fresh commission to ascertain the actual value of all such matters as might have been decided by the award of the first commissioners to be titheable, but they were to have no power to disturb the determinations of the former commissioners respecting moduses, or other partial or entire exemption. This scheme, he admitted, was not new, and he regarded its want of novelty as a strong recommendation to it. It had been tried partially, and found to answer, and a plan similar to this had been submitted to the House in the Report of the Commissioners of Land Revenue in 1792. In conclusion he begged to express the sincerity and warmth of his attachment to the church establishment, and his firm conviction that, the bill which he now proposed to introduce, if passed into a law, was calculated to afford ease and comfort to the clergy, to secure to them permanent and settled incomes; and while it relieved the landowner from many of the inconveniencies which press on him, would also relieve the clergyman from much that was painful to him, and must tend to enlarge his sphere of usefulness. He called on the House to support the measure.
Mr. Humesaid, he was not sorry to see this subject again brought under the consideration of the House. He, however, must deprecate a clause which it was proposed to introduce; namely, that enabling the clergy to enjoy the effects of capital expended in the improvement of land, and so far discouraging the honest industry employed in its cultivation. The peculiar feature of—thence the peculiar objection to—a tithe-tax was, that it was a tax upon industry, increasing with the application of labour to agriculture, and as a consequence tending to restrict that application. When it was first levied, it was paid in kind, solely because there existed no other mode of payment equally convenient; but since commerce and the change
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of manners and institutions had induced a far different state of things, payment in kind was no longer desirable. He saw no reason whatever against changing the system altogether, and for not paying the clergy according to the mode pursued in the army and navy. The measure proposed by the hon. Member appeared to him objectionable, because it did not go far enough; he, however, would give it his support as a step towards improvement; he should indeed have preferred a plan of more extent—one, for example, which would institute a commission to value the tithes of every parish in the kingdom. There were two species of tithe obligations —lay and clerical—the commission would embrace the valuation of both. He would give the commissioners a power to sell at a fair market-value those tithes which belonged to lay proprietors. He said at a market value, for those tithes were a matter of daily sale—in fact were advertised in newspapers, and sold as common as a two penny loaf; [hear, and a laugh] so that there could be no difficulty in determining their fair value. With respect to the tithes belonging to clerical incumbents, he would pursue a different course; he would have them consolidated in one fund, from which the clergy should be allowed a fixed stipend, in proportion to their rank and amount of bona fide duty. By this means, all the evils consequent upon tithe-litigation would be avoided, and the meritorious and zealous minister would be rewarded; while the present system of idle and corrupt pluralities would be put an end to. He saw no objection to either arrangement. By purchasing up lay tithes at a fair market price, the lay proprietor would be fairly compensated for his property; by paying the clergy a fixed stipend, much that was objectionable in the present system would be precluded. This would relieve the agriculture of the country, and thousands he might almost say millions—of persons now unemployed would then find employment; for many who now avoided investing their money in property liable to tithe according to its increased value, would then endeavour to make improvements in it, and by so doing, would give employment to a great number of persons. It could not now be said that church property was sacred; that to touch it would be an act similar in kind to the spoliation of private property; for

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the Tithe Commutation act of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer recognised and acted upon the principle of interference. [hear] When he (Mr. Hume) proposed such a measure, he was scouted by the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, as one who had proposed to rob the church of what as much belonged to it as any man's house or chattels to him; and yet, within one year, the right hon. Gentleman himself proposed, and, while in office, passed, the very same measure. He would support the proposed measure of the hon. Member for Lancaster, though he could not approve of the twenty-one years' valuation clause.
Mr. Trantsaid, he thought that a measure of such extensive interference would be neither more nor less than a positive spoliation of property. When gentlemen purchased land, and farmers took it on lease, they did so having made calculations of the amount to be mutually deducted from the purchase-money or the rent, as tithes. He was sure the country gentlemen of England would never suffer the vested rights of the clergy to be thus invaded. He never wished to see the clergy made the subject of spoliation.
Mr. Humebegged, in reply to any such language, to be permitted to deny that he contemplated anything in the way of what was termed "spoliation;" he wished every thing to be done on the principle of fair and equitable compensation, and he disclaimed any intention or desire to deprive the clergy of their just claims to public support.
Mr. Greenereplied.—His great object was, to put an end to those litigations which so much disturbed the harmony between clergymen and their parishioners.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.