Commons Sitting of 4 February 1830

MINUTES.
The House met at two o'clock; and after having been summoned to attend in the House of Lords, and previously to reading the Copy of the Lords Commissioners Speech, the Speaker acquainted the House, that he had issued warrants for new writs, for EYE, in the room of Sir Miles Nightingall, deceased: for SOUTHAMPTON, in the room of Wm. Chamberlayne, esq. deceased: LIMERICK COUNTY, in the room of Thomas Lloyd, esq. deceased.
The marq. of DOURO, for Aldeburgh: PHILIP CHARLES SIDNEY, esq. for Eye: DANIEL O'CONNELL,* esq. for Clare: GEORGE BANKES, esq. for Corfe Castle: Sir JAMES SCARLETT, for Peterborough: and Sir EDW. BURTEN-SHAW SUGDEN, for Weymouth: then took the oaths and their seats.
ROWLAND STEPHENSON.—The Speaker then acquainted the House, that he had received a letter from Mr. James Bourdillon, solicitor to the estate of Rowland Stephenson, esq., a bankrupt, inclosing a certificate of the commissioners under the Commission issued against the said Rowland Stephenson; and the said letter was read; and is as follows:—
Bread Street, 19th Jan. 1850.
Sir;—As solicitor to the estate of Mr. Rowland Stephenson, a bankrupt, I am directed by the commissioners under the commission issued against him, to transmit to you their certificate of the issuing of such commission; and that Mr. Rowland Stephenson has not paid his creditors, although twelve calendar months have elapsed since the issuing of the said commission, and that the same has not been superseded. I have the honour to be, &c. J. BOURDILLON.
To the Speaker of the House of Commons.
Then the certificate was read; and is as follows;
To the Right Hon. the Speaker, &c. &c.
At the Court of Commissioners of Bankrupts, in Basinghall Street, London, the 19th day of Jan. 1830.
We whose names are hereunto subscribed, being the major part of the commissioners named and authorised in and by a commission of bankrupt awarded and issued against WILLIAM REMINGTON, ROWLAND STEPHENSON, DAVID ROBT. REMINGTON, and JOSEPH PETTY TOULMIN, of Lombard Street, in the city of London, bankers and copartners, do hereby certify, that a commission of bankrupt under the Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, grounded upon statute made and now in force concerning bankrupts, bearing date at Westminster the thirty-first day of December, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-eight, hath been awarded and issued against the said ROWLAND STEPHENSON, together with WILLIAM REMINGTON, DAVID ROBERT REMINGTON, and JOSEPH PETTY TOULMIN, directed to us, and also to John Beames and Henry John Shepherd, esqs., as commissioners, to execute the same; and that the said ROWLAND STEPHENSON, (together with the said WM.
*MR. O'CONNELL took the Oath (at the left side of the table), and then shook hands with the Speaker. He afterwards seated himself in Mr. Hume's place and shook hands, and entered into conversation with sir F. Burdett. Very few members were present at the time. The other members took the oaths and their seat, but they were sworn at the right side of the table, the usual Place,
REMINGTON, DAVID ROBERT REMINGTON, and JOSEPH PETTY TOULMIN), was found and declared a bankrupt under the same:
And we further certify that, although twelve calendar months have expired since the issuing of the said commission, the same hath not been superseded, nor have the creditors of the said ROWLAND STEPHENSON, or of him and his said partners, who have proved their debts under the said commission been paid or satisfied to the full amount of their debts under the said commission, according to the provisions in that behalf of an Act of Parliament made and passed in the fifty-second year of the reign of his late majesty King George the Third, intituled, "An Act to suspend and finally vacate the seats of members of the House of Commons who shall become bankrupts, and who shall not pay their debts in full within a limited time."
Witness,

H. HASKER, Clerk to Mr. Jas.

Bourdillon, Solicitor, Bread Street, Cheapside.

JOHN TURNER,

J. B. MACAULAY

G. F. HAMPSON,

Mr. PLANTA then moved, that the Act 52 Geo. 3, c. 144, to suspend and finally vacate the seats of members of the House of Commons who shall become bankrupts, and who shall not pay their debts in full within a limited time, might be read. The same having been read; it was ordered, that Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to the clerk of the Crown, to make out a new Writ for the electing of a burgess to serve in this present parliament for the borough of Leominster, in the room of Rowland Stephenson, esq., whose seat has become vacant pursuant to the provisions of the said act.
New writs were ordered for WATERFORD COUNTY in the room of Henry Villiers Stuart, esq., Chiltern Hundreds: for Harwich, in the room of right hon. John Charles Henries, President of the Board of Trade: for WEST-LOOE, in the room of Charles Buller, esq., Chiltern Hundreds: for MEATH, in the room of Earl of Bective, now marquis of Headfort.
Mr. DAVENPORT gave notice that on the 16th inst. he should renew his motion relative to the state of the country, if forty members were present.

CLERGY, CHURCHES, AND CHAPELS.
Mr. Hume(in continuation of returns ordered last session) moved an Address for "Copies or Abstracts of the Returns made to his Majesty in council by each bishop in England and Wales on 25th March 1827 or 1828, as directed by the twenty-third section of 57 Geo. 3, c. 99:—Return of the number of parish churches and chapels, and chapels of ease, of the church of England, in each parish, and the total in England and Wales:—Abstract of the number of resident and licensed curates in England and Wales, with the amount of the salaries of curacies, according to the diocesan returns for the years 1827 and 1828:—Of the number of places of worship, not of the chinch of England, in each parish; distinguishing, as far as possible, of what sect or persuasion, and the total number of each sect in England and Wales."
Mr. William Smithsaid, there was no proper officer to whom an order for such a return could be directed. If the returns could be had without expense to private
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parties, he thought it highly desirable that they should be obtained; but he confessed he did not exactly see how they could be got at.
Mr. Humesaw no such difficulty. Every bishop was aware of the number in his own diocese; and, no doubt, the Home Secretary would know to whom to send the order so as to ensure obedience to it.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, it might be perfectly practicable to supply part of the information which the honourable member sought; but as to the number of persons attending, he really did not see whose business it could be to make returns upon that subject; certainly there were no official means of arriving at the information. As far as the motion could be, it should be complied with.—Motion agreed to.

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS.
Mr. Protheroe(in continuation of orders for accounts presented last session) moved addresses for returns from all Courts, and other authorities in England and Wales, empowered to grant probate of wills and letters of administration, stating the date of the earliest wills in their respective registries, the period at which there commences a regular series of original wills and recorded copies of administration, bonds and inventories of act, books of probates and administrations, and of indexes to the said records:—Together with a statement of any occasional chasms, that may occur in, and an accurate detail of the state, and condition of, the said records:—Of the number of wills proved, and letters of administration granted, in the several jurisdictions respectively so empowered, 'in the years 1826, 1827, and 1828; and in cases where no wills have been proved, nor letters of administration granted, in any jurisdiction within the aforementioned period, the date of the last will proved, or letters of administration granted, to be stated:—Of the amount of fees, profits and emoluments of every description, which have been received by the judge, record-keeper, auditor of accounts, all deputies and assistant clerks, and all other persons in the Ecclesiastical and Manorial Courts in England (except the Prerogative Court of Canterbury), from 1825 to 1828, both inclusive:—And of the fees, profits, and emoluments of the registrars, deputy registrars, and proctors, on taking out probates and administrations, in the Ecclesiastical and Manorial Courts in England

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(except the Prerogative Court of Canterbury); stating the different charges and fees in detail.—He observed that the greater part of the returns he had reason to believe were in a state of forwardness, so that they might soon be presented.— Motion agreed to.

ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.—
The Speakerthen read a copy of the Lords Commissioners Speech.
The Earl of Darlingtonrose to move an Address. Having just heard, in common with the other members of this honourable House, his Majesty's most gracious Speech, it becomes my duty to move an Address thereon, and to advert to the topics which that Speech embraces. Before, however, I enter on these topics in detail, and in the order in which they are presented to me, I will, as concisely as I can, explain the reason which has urged me to undertake that duty, and to place me in a situation as novel to myself as it may be deemed peculiar by many who now hear me, inasmuch as I appear, after being a member of the House for seventeen years, this night, for the first time, at this side of it, and during that period having taken very little share in the debates. [Spoke from behind the ministerial bench.] I feel it due to my character as an individual, and to the responsibility which I undertook as a member of parliament, to give my reasons for undertaking a task which might be so much better performed in other hands; and I am certain I shall meet the indulgence of the House, as I have hitherto but seldom trespassed on its notice since I entered parliament. After the commencement of the war, and after the country had been distracted by two parties called Whig and Tory; when I found that the one was urging on the war with as much violence as the other used in trying to repress and end it, and having been educated with a regard for liberal principles, and considering that those principles were best illustrated by the conduct of the Whigs, I joined that side of the House. I found, however, that the progress of time made great changes both in men and measures; and many of the topics which had been urged without notice by the Opposition were at last treated with attention by the Ministerial benches, and that many of the measures for which the Whigs had long contended began to be adopted by the other side of the House, and were carried
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into execution by the government [hear, hear] Though it has seldom been my lot to mark the proceedings of this House by other than a silent vote, considering that every topic of interest was taken up by persons better qualified to do them and the country justice than I was, still I have to assure you, Sir, that I was not a mere passive spectator, but that I paid a due regard to the progress of events, and to the circumstances which peculiarly marked the character of this Mouse. I saw a change gradually approaching. I felt that the course of events brought with it increased moderation and liberality; and I looked forward to the day when I might see accomplished that which I now see,—namely, the time when government would be entitled to demand the support of an independent member of parliament, and when it would be no reflection on his principles to extend that support. I say, Sir, that day has arrived when we are entitled to declare that the government of the country is one worthy of the confidence of the Sovereign and of the affections of the people, [hear, hear]—I repeat, Sir, that the administration is one in which every true friend of the country ' may rejoice; and when I look at its constitution, I find my hopes are established on just and reasonable grounds;—when I see at its head a man who, like the noble duke, is as distinguished for judgment and decision in the cabinet as he was for skill and triumph in the field—when I look on the bench below me and see my right hon. friend, the Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peel), and consider all the public services he has rendered, and the measures which he brought forward in the course of last session for the good of the country— when I look at these men and at their colleagues—when I see how honourably and efficiently the cabinet is on every side composed, I say, Sir, that I have reason to indulge a confidence; and I say, considering all the circumstances of the country, in a time of distress like the present, I am justified in what I do, and that it is every man's duty to rally round the Throne and give to such a government the warmest aid and support, [hear] I now look upon the distinction of Whig and Tory as empty names, and, equally dreading the violence of both, I can with difficulty say which party I would wish to see predominant.—The government of the

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present day have shown that, in effect, the sounds of Whig and Tory are synonymous; and we see in them an administration without a party, or rather a Tory administration acting upon Whig principles. [loud cheers and some laughter] It is true that there are still many honourable gentlemen attached to the minute distinctions which are all that are left of the mighty differences which once marked the state of party in this House; and far be it from me to find fault with those who conscientiously retain those feelings. For myself, I declare that I now act on the same principles which always governed my parliamentary conduct; and, though I have hitherto confined myself almost to a silent vote, I solemnly declare I never had any other object in view than that of the general good of the country [hear]—and I feel myself entitled to support a government acting on that opinion, no matter of what set of men it may be composed, convinced that the country is to be served by measures not by men. [cheers]—It is, therefore, unnecessary for me to say that I have not been induced to come forward by any attraction which prevailed in a particular cabinet, but I support the administration in which I find a coincidence with those sentiments on which I have hitherto acted, and because I confide in it, and in a prime minister, who combines promptitude, judgment, and decision equal, if not superior, to any other who has ever been intrusted with power in this kingdom, [hear]—Having now made to the House a preliminary statement, which I consider equally due to it and to myself, I will shortly touch on the different topics which are submitted to us in the Speech, and which will be embraced in the Address. His Majesty begins by justly expressing his satisfaction that the war between Russia and the Porte has been brought to a conclusion, and then proceeds to announce that a plan has been agreed upon for the final settlement of the affairs of Greece. What this plan may be I shall not, at present, inquire—because I am of opinion that it would be not only impolitic but unnecessary to press for a disclosure of what has been promised at an early period. I shall, therefore, go no farther than to hope that the House will join with me in congratulating his Majesty and the country on the termination of hostilities between Russia and the Porte. The House will more
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readily join in this congratulation when they recollect how very difficult it is to extinguish the flame of war when it is once lighted, as well as the impossibility there is of being enabled to ascertain how far war may extend. I am extremely sorry that it has not been in his Majesty's power to give us information of a similar kind with respect to Portugal, for it would appear as if all hope of reconciliation between Don Pedro and Don Miguel were at an end. I must, at the same time, express my entire approval of the line of conduct which has been pursued by his Majesty's government, and in this I trust the House will unanimously join; for if this country were to have asserted the right of Donna Maria, we should have run the risk of embroiling ourselves in war and with foreign countries—a risk which, under all the circumstances, would have been by no means justifiable on our parts. We are, no doubt, bound to maintain our ancient alliance with the kingdom of Portugal, yet we cannot be by any means bound to support any one or other of the parties contending for its Crown, nor can it be in any manner incumbent upon us so to act. With regard to our diplomatic relations, I must observe that our commercial connections with Portugal are so very numerous and important, great injury must necessarily arise from their being suspended; and, therefore, this is a subject which calls imperatively, for immediate consideration, [hear] The next topic to which his Majesty points our attention is that of economy and retrenchment which his Majesty informs us will be put into execution, and a considerable reduction effected in the public expenditure, without impairing the efficiency of our naval or military establishments. This, I think, is as much as the most rigid economist can require or desire. The deficiency in the revenue is no doubt much to be lamented, yet I have every hope that it will not be near so great as was apprehended by some, and I cannot help feeling secure that the country will be able still to support efficient establishments; and at the same time to maintain the public credit, which it is the duty of the government to support inviolate, [hear] The next portion of the Speech acquaints us with the attention that has been bestowed upon the reforms in our Courts of Law, with regard to which his Majesty says, that "he has directed that measures shall be submitted

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for your deliberation, of which some are calculated, in the opinion of his Majesty, to facilitate and expedite the course of justice in different parts of the United Kingdom; and others appear to be necessary preliminaries to a revision of the practice and proceedings of the Superior Courts." There can be but one opinion on this head; it is a subject on which I cannot be supposed to be well informed, and I shall content myself with saying that, whatever alterations have been made, and whatever improvements have been introduced into our different institutions, for them the thanks of the country are eminently due to the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department. The Speech then proceeds to another fact, to which I shall very shortly refer—namely, that the exports of British produce and manufactures were greater in the year 1829 than at any former period. This proves the advantage of a system, of free trade, and is a subject gratifying to have brought before our eyes when distress is visible in the country. That great distress prevails I candidly admit and amongst all classes [hear]—and for it various causes may be assigned, and various opinions are entertained with respect to its origin; but whatever these may be, I fear they are beyond our power, and out of our control. However, it is a happiness to know that the country retains within herself the power of relief, and always will have it, from that energy which has rendered her remarkable above all the nations of the world. Temporary distress will recur in commercial countries, but time will relieve it; and I am the more inclined to this opinion with respect to England, since she has all the power of producing wealth—her ships, her warehouses, her superior machinery, still in her possession; and her general resources continue as great and unimpaired as ever. I see no cause for despondency. The greater part of our present distress has arisen, in my opinion, from the mischief of overtrading, which induced a production greater than the greatest possible demand. This, and an increased population in the manufacturing districts, combined with the use of machinery, are in my mind sufficient to cause a distress greater even than that which prevails at present, [hear] —Although the improvement in our export trade has been so great, still, with regard to our home consumption, it is to
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be regretted that there exists a great stagnation; the agricultural interest is also distressed, and this may be one of the causes, if not the chief one, of that stagnation. For as long as the price of agricultural produce is low, the farmers, our greatest and best consumers, will not be able to purchase from the manufacturers. They have no interests that militate the one against the other; and I will always maintain that the interests and the prosperity of agriculture and manufactures coincide and depend upon one another.—I have now touched upon all the topics in the Speech from the Throne, and upon some, probably, at too great length; but if I have committed any mistake, or been guilty of any omission, the House will, I trust, accept my inexperience as an apology; and if, in the course of my observations, any unguarded expression may have dropped from me, they will, I hope, attribute it to the same cause [hear]—I hope I shall enjoy the good fortune of having the House unanimous in support of the Address which I shall now have the honour to propose.—The noble lord then moved that an humble Address be presented to his Majesty:—
"To return to his Majesty our humble thanks for the gracious Speech which his Majesty has directed to be delivered by the Lords Commissioners.—To assure his Majesty, that we have heard with high gratification that his Majesty receives from all Foreign Powers the strongest assurances of their desire to maintain and cultivate the most friendly relations with this Country; and that we participate in the satisfaction expressed by his Majesty, that the war between Russia and the Ottoman Porte has been brought to a conclusion.
"To thank his Majesty for acquainting us that his efforts to accomplish the main objects of the Treaty of the 6th July 1827 have been unremitted; and to express to his Majesty our acknowledgments for the assurance that his Majesty, having recently concerted with his Allies measures for the pacification and final settlement of Greece, trusts that he shall be enabled, at an early period, to communicate to us the particulars of this arrangement, with such information as may explain the course which his Majesty has pursued throughout the progress of these important transactions.
"To assure his Majesty that we concur with his Majesty in lamenting that he is

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unable to announce to us the prospect of a reconciliation between the Princes of the House of Braganza, and to thank his Majesty for the intimation that, although his Majesty has not yet deemed it expedient to re-establish upon their ancient footing his Majesty's diplomatic relations with the Kingdom of Portugal, the numerous embarrassments arising from the continued interruption of these relations increase his Majesty's desire to effect the termination of so serious an evil.
"To return our acknowledgments to his Majesty for having directed the estimates for the current year to be laid before us, and for the assurance that they have been framed with every attention to economy, and to express to his Majesty our high gratification at learning that his Majesty has been enabled to make a considerable reduction in the amount of the Public Expenditure, without impairing the efficiency of our Naval or Military Establishments.
"To assure his Majesty, that we derive sincere satisfaction from the information that, although the National Income during the last year has not attained the full amount at which it had been estimated, the diminution is not such as to cause any doubt as to the future prosperity of the Revenue.
"To acknowledge his Majesty's goodness in having of late earnestly directed his attention to various important considerations connected with improvements in the general administration of the Law, and in having commanded that measures shall be submitted for our deliberation, of which some are calculated, in the opinions of his Majesty, to facilitate and expedite the course of justice in different parts of the United Kingdom, and others appear to be necessary preliminaries to a revision of the practice and proceedings of the Superior Courts; and to assure his Majesty that we will justify the confidence which his Majesty is pleased to repose in us, by giving our best attention and assistance to subjects of such deep and lasting interest to the well-being of his people.
"To express to his Majesty our satisfaction at learning that the Export in the last year of British Produce and Manufactures has exceeded that of any former year—and our sincere participation in the concern felt by his Majesty, that, notwithstanding this indication of active commerce, distress should prevail among the
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agricultural and manufacturing classes in some parts of the United Kingdom.
"Cordially to acknowledge his Majesty's goodness in assuring us that it would be most gratifying to the paternal feelings of his Majesty to be enabled to propose for our consideration measures calculated to remove the difficulties of any portion of his subjects, and at the same time compatible with the general and permanent interests of his People; and, humbly participating with his Majesty in a deep solicitude for those interests, to express our concurrence in the necessity of acting with extreme caution in reference to this important subject.
"To assure his Majesty that we will not fail to assign due weight to the effect of unfavourable seasons, and to the operation of other causes which are beyond the reach of Legislative control or remedy.
"That we are deeply sensible of the paramount importance of maintaining inviolate the Public Credit, and of thus upholding the high character and the permanent welfare of the Country."
Mr. Ward—I rise for the purpose of seconding the motion of the noble lord. Recollecting that many of the ablest and best men whom this country ever claimed as her sons have stood upon the spot which I now occupy for the purpose of recommending by their eloquence the various motions for addresses from time to time proposed, I must say, in my own excuse, that it is the partiality of others, and not any presumption of mine, that has selected me for this task. [hear]—Although those who preceded me well discharged their trust, yet I cannot admit that any one amongst them was ever animated by a warmer desire faithfully to discharge his duty than I am; nor am I deterred from coming forward because the period at which the part has been allotted to me is one of difficulty and distress. [hear, hear] This ought rather to stimulate every hon. member to greater exertions; and the people should feel and know that their representatives were at their posts, and were determined to do all in their power for the country's relief. We are required to make a suitable acknowledgment for the gracious Speech on our assembling; and, with the permission of the House, I will consider some of the topics which that Speech has brought under our consideration. The first amongst these is peace. This is the

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fifteenth year during which that blessing has been continued to us; but I fear that there are so many gentlemen who recollect the high prices and great profits attendant upon the war, that there are many persons who are not fully convinced of the value of that unrivalled blessing—peace. But, notwithstanding this, it is my warm hope, and I will express my strongest wish, that the noble duke now at the head of the administration will maintain to the longest moment in his power that peace, [hear, hear] There was a time when a military chief could issue from his camp a declaration that the House of Braganza had ceased to reign, or that a northern power was no longer to exist. He possessed the power to enforce his will, and he disregarded the ties, and set at nought the rights, of nations. We now, however, live in happier times; and it is pleasing to know that even those countries lately visited by military aggression still possess their independence. I am confident that all who were on the Finance Committee are quite convinced that the government are anxious to fix the expenditure for the services of the country on the lowest possible scale; and it is agreeable to know this at a time when there is a falling-off in the revenue. I lament that, with respect to our debt, there has not been a greater reduction, for to that reduction, of interest or otherwise, must the people mainly look for a diminution of their burthens. [hear, hear] — It is lamentable that those who were once our enemies, and who may be so again (though I sincerely hope not for a long time to come,) that France and America should have in this respect gone so far before us. The Sinking-fund of France is larger than that in this country, although their debt is not more than one-fourth of ours. America will have no debt in 1834; and if no exertions are made to reduce our debt, I fear we may be overtaken by a war when it may be most inconvenient for us to be engaged in one. [hear] The government must look boldly and resolutely at our situation to avert such an evil. The present is, however, a period favourable for this purpose, and I have hopes that the chancellor of the Exchequer will not allow it to pass without some measure for the reduction of the interest on our national debt. Nearly a century ago a predecessor of mine, sir John Barnard, pressed the chancellor of the Exchequer of that day to do the re-
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verse of what I now ask, in order that the rate of interest on private transactions might be increased; but now it is different, as the government pays more than is required in private concerns. The next subject to which I shall allude is the distress that weighs upon our agricultural and manufacturing classes. I hope I am the last man who would seek to undervalue the real state of affairs, and I believe that distress of an extraordinary character does really exist. [hear] It is not for us to content ourselves with the mere statement of the fact, but it is our duty to see whether a remedy can be found, [loud cheers] —If we cannot find any remedies of real utility, let us not attempt to delude the people by holding out to their imagination projects which are impracticable. One remedy proposed for agricultural distress —namely, the repeal of the malt duty — would, no doubt, be good for the producers of barley, but it would be of no service to those engaged in other pursuits. The distress is, I know, attributed by many to the change in the currency. Many there are who overlook the difference between the change in the currency generally, and the change produced by parliamentary enactments. In 1819 a great change was effected; it was necessary that the country should have some standard of value, and in. effecting that object the parliament was, in my opinion, fully justified; if they did go a step too far, still every allowance ought to be made for those who had brought forward and supported the measure. I had my own share in it, and I am ready to bear my part of the responsibility. In addition, it should be recollected that there was at that time a great falling-off in the produce of the mines. Austria had also made a change in her currency, so likewise did Russia: and another great mischief, in the eyes of those who wish the currency put upon the old footing, is to be charged to the philanthropy of this honourable House; for, in consequence of the vast numbers of forgeries, and the penalties inflicted upon the offenders, the one and two pound notes were withdrawn. More gold then became requisite. With respect to the distress of the agricultural interests, I am of opinion that it is chiefly and principally attributable not to the, change in the currency, but to two successive bad harvests. Probably there were a million a quarters of corn deficient in

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each of the two last years, at least importations to that extent were requisite. Agricultural distress, too, differs from commercial or any other that may prevail in a nation, because in agricultural loss it is not simply the impairing of property, but its total destruction. Although, then, I admit the existence of distress, yet there is no one more sure than I am that it will be relieved by natural causes. The elasticity of our resources has been so often proved, that there is no reason to despair now more than when we came out triumphant from contests in which Europe was leagued against us. If these views are erroneous, I must expect the chastening hand of correction; if not, I hope the House will be unanimous in voting the Address which I have the honour to support. [cheers]
The Speakerthen read the Motion for an Address.
Sir Edward Knatchbull.—If, Sir, on the present occasion, I could permit myself to be influenced by personal considerations, I should willingly have adopted the course pursued by me for several years, and suffer the Address to pass without observation. In applying myself to the subject it must be obvious, and I confess it, that I labour under extreme difficulty. It is a very short time since I have been informed of the topics it embraces, and therefore my difficulty becomes the greater still, either in the application of my argument, or in the preparation of an amendment. It is true I might have taken the course once recommended by an hon. member in this House; I might move the adjournment of the debate until to-morrow, so as to have time to form such an Address as I could more willingly offer to your consideration. But I do not think that such a course would be in accordance with the wish or the usage of the House, and I shall not adopt it. I shall follow the Speech as well as I can, and make such observations as suggest themselves. But, before I move the amendment with which I mean to conclude, I must make one or two observations upon what has fallen from the noble lord and the hon. member opposite, the mover and seconder of the Address. If the noble Lord has found it necessary to apologize for the part he has taken, I have no fault to find with him; but, if an apology were necessary, he has made it in the best way possible, and I leave the government the benefit of the explanation. I will also say
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at once, that, if the Address were at all in unison with the sentiments uttered by the hon. members, very little difference of opinion could exist between us. The noble lord has said that the distress is general, and the hon. gentleman has described it as of an extraordinary character. But does the Speech say this? Does even the Address contain a syllable of this? No, they only state that it exists in some places; where then is there an expression of this extraordinary character and this generality? With respect to the different topics of the Address, it commences by announcing that the war between Russia and Turkey is concluded, and calls upon us to congratulate his Majesty on the event. I am ready to do so, and the more ready because the Speech says not a word as to the mode or the manner in which that conclusion was effected. The next point is the pacification of Greece. On that I shall say nothing more than that I entertain hopes similar to those of the hon. gentleman opposite, that every thing has been done for the best interests of the country, and if the settlement be attended with a lessening of expense to the country, I shall most heartily rejoice. I lament the situation in which we are placed as respects Portugal; and why Don Miguel, who is in possession of the throne, has not been acknowledged as he ought to be, and as he will be, appears most inexplicable. I know that observations have been made in this House against the policy of doing so, but that Don Miguel will be acknowledged I have not the slightest doubt. The next topic is, that the estimates will be prepared with the strictest view to economy, and I am very willing to believe this. Then follows the point relative to the reform of our courts of law; and in all that has been said on this subject I fully agree. I am not presumptuous enough to suppose that I could render any service, but on this subject shall dismiss every partial and every political consideration, and support improvement in this as in every other great question, let the man who proposes it be who he may. No matter into whose hands the power may fall, only let them administer matters faithfully, honourably, and economically, and the government shall have my support. The next point, and one which has been dwelt upon, is the great increase in our exports, but I should have much wished to hear that this was a

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good index of our prosperity. May not this increase have arisen from what has been complained of—namely, overtrading? I only wish that it would enable the chancellor of the Exchequer to come down, and take off part of our burthens; then, indeed, I could believe it was beneficial. The next topic is that of the distress, and upon this point I shall examine the Speech, which I have a right to assume to be the Speech of the ministers, and for which they must be responsible.
Mr. Ward.—No, no.
Sir E. Knatchbull.—Do I hear my hon. friend aright? Does my hon. friend mean to controvert a point which has been settled for now more than a century past, that his Majesty's Speech should be considered as that of his ministers?
Mr. Ward.—I had no such intention: I misunderstood my hon. friend. I supposed that my hon. friend intended to consider my speech as that of ministers. Now ministers were not at all responsible for what I may have said, [a laugh]
Sir E. Knatchbull.—All I say, and all I want the attention of the House to, is the simple fact, that the Speech says, in plain terms, that distress exists in "some" places. If I were in want of any explanation I need only refer to the speeches of the mover and seconder of the Address. They say that the distress is general and extraordinary. That is the sole point of difference; and since I heard the Speech I have marvelled how such language could have found its way into the Speech, or how they could make statements so very different from the Address proposed. If ministers said, they would do every thing that wisdom and sagacity and energy could suggest for the relief of the people, then I should agree with them; it would have been unnecessary for me to propose any amendment. If I am asked what evidence have I that distress exists, I will say that I see it and feel it in my own part of the country; and if I am asked for more, I will put the question to every hon. member in the House, and he will say the same of the district which he represents. I know that the distress is not so great in some places as in others, but the question is—is it not universal? We are asked on this important day—perhaps the most important we have ever witnessed—to approach his Majesty with a declaration containing something very like falsehood [hear]. I will not for a moment suppose, or have it imagined,
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that I can think the mover or seconder influenced by any motive or feeling of such a description. But I ask—is the distress general or not? I appeal again to every authority, and I implore gentlemen to consider the vote they are asked to come to this night. I shall avoid, on the present occasion, saying anything as to the remedy. I shall not say a word upon the Malt Tax, because I know a difference of opinion exists; nor shall I allude to the currency for the same reason; they will be discussed hereafter. I shall state my opinion honestly, and all I ask is, that the House will respect and express the simple, naked truth [hear]—That which is wrong I am ready to correct, but I am cautious lest, in endeavouring to amend, I may suddenly and unwillingly find myself linked to those whose object is, to pull down and destroy. I must apologize for the length of time I have occupied, and beg leave to propose an amendment to be made to the question, by inserting, after the words "any former year" the words, "But that we lament the existence of that distress which his Majesty informs us prevails in some places:—We are, however, in the faithful discharge of our duty, constrained to declare to his Majesty cur opinion that this distress is not confined, as his Majesty has been advised, to some particular places, but that it is general among all the productive interests of the country, which are severely suffering from its pressure:—We beg to assure his Majesty, that we will adopt the caution his Majesty has recommended, in the consideration of such measures as may be proposed to us, and that our earnest endeavours shall be directed to relieve the country from its present difficulties."
The Marquis of Blandfordseconded the amendment. He would not detain the House long; and he thought it would be well if hon. Members in their speeches bore in mind what Jefferson* said of Washington and Franklin, namely, that they never spoke longer at a time than ten minutes, and yet by their counsels
* "I served with General Washington in the Legislature of Virginia, before the Revolution, and during it with Dr. Franklin in Congress. I never heard either of them speak ten minutes at a time, nor to any but main points, which was to decide the question. They laid their shoulders to the great point, knowing that the little ones would follow ofthemselves."—Jefferson's Memoirs and Correspondence, vol. i., p. 50.

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they greatly benefitted their country. He seized this early opportunity of declaring in his place, as one of the representatives of the people, his firm conviction that the circumstances of the country were such that it was impossible to return to a sound and healthy state, until such a diminution of taxes should take place as would enable the productive industry of the country to contend with low prices. Most decided, effective, and immediate measures must be resorted to. No petty half measures would restore the country to its former state of existence; no palliatives would now restore us—he would not say to a state of prosperity, but—to a state of healthful existence; the most vigorous measures were necessary for the accomplishment of this great purpose. It could not be done by the present House of Commons, in which the people had little confidence, and for which they were beginning to entertain less respect. The seeds of dissatisfaction, discontent, and disgust, had been sown; and it would be in vain to attempt to check their growth otherwise than by the speedy and temperate application of the first and genuine principles of the Constitution. He seconded the motion of his hon. friend the member for Kent; and after his amendment should have been disposed of, he had one of his own to propose, [hear and a laugh]
Sir John Brydges.—He did not rise to detain the House by discussing in detail the various topics that had been introduced into the speech of the noble Lord who moved the Address, and of the hon. member who seconded it. He concurred in what had fallen from them, and he approved of the Address. At that time, however, he held it to be insufficient to concur in silence. The parliament was now assembled at a crisis when unexampled distress pervaded every interest of the country, whether it was agricultural, commercial, or trading, and every nerve must be strained to alleviate it. However insignificant his powers might be, his constituents had intrusted him with a seat in the great council of the nation, to uphold their rights, and to maintain the dearest interests of the country; and by the blessing of God he would do his best not to disappoint them. If this trust had not been confided to him, it would have been conferred on some one else, more able, perhaps, but, he was confident, not more willing to do his duty by them. He
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should not do so, if he did not take that opportunity, with great deference, to endeavour to impress, however feebly, upon the assembly, the imperative necessity that at that moment existed for every man to do his duty—to employ his talents and his time, in conjunction with his fellow-representatives, to rescue the country from the perils that surrounded it—to sink every selfish consideration, and unitedly to put their shoulders to the wheel— to lay aside all party feeling, and to know no other interest than the public good. The country called upon them, and looked up to them for relief. Great as were our difficulties, appalling as was our debt, let it not be said we cannot overcome them. He pitied the pusillanimity that prompted such a feeling; it was dastardly. True to itself and united, what could not England accomplish? If we did our duty by our constituents, they would do theirs by us. They had already done so, and were prepared to do so again, provided they saw that their representatives were in earnest to save their country. In a word, therefore, let them, in the present Session, be faithfully responsive to the urgent calls of a high-minded, high-principled, and generous people, who anxiously looked up to them to relieve their distress;— to them, whose efforts, he was sure, would be sanctioned, encouraged, and promoted by those ministers, to whose guidance his Majesty had committed the reins of government.
Mr. Western, was most astonished at that part of the Speech which described the distress to exist in some parts of the country only, and to be, in fact, merely partial and temporary. The noble duke and his Majesty's ministers must be very much misinformed with respect to the state of the country, and totally ignorant of the fact, that the people of every part of the country were placed in a condition such as they had never known before. The whole of the productive classes of the community, labourers as well as manufacturers, were now enduring a state of severe suffering and misery such as they had never experienced before, at any period of our history. It had been said the distress was partial and temporary. He denied that it could be called so. The people were engaged in a continuity of struggles, which they had supported with firmness for the last fourteen years; but their strength was now nearly exhausted, and

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their patience began to desert them. He would ask, if there was a member in the House who could deny the existence of this distress? And how, he would ask further, had it been produced? Why, by a succession of the most mischievous measures that ever were devised for the destruction of a nation. Notwithstanding the waste and extravagance of an impolitic war, to which he had during the whole of his life been opposed, the country was left at its close in a state of unexampled power and prosperity, and able to discharge its obligations, and with a people contented and flourishing". From that moment, however, the government had, by a system of the most vicious interference, destroyed the sources of their advantages, and had adopted measures which operated to double the taxes and all obligations. Against the evils created by this interference they had struggled on; but, he repeated, they were now exhausted, and unless a change of measures took place, they must look forward to one of the most terrible and frightful convulsions this country had ever sustained. The eyes of every class of the community were fixed on the government; and yet his majesty's ministers, with an indifference or an ignorance which was scarcely credible, had placed their distresses, as it were, in a parenthesis; [laugh and hear, hear] and passed them over with a levity which was disgusting, and which, he was sure, must prove galling to the feelings of the sufferers. He was willing to support the Amendment—not because it came up to his views, for, in his opinion, it but very feebly expressed the sentiments which ought to animate that House on such a subject—but he was willing to mark, in any manner, his disapprobation of, and dissent from, the terms of the Speech. If he were to frame an Address, it should be to pledge the House to appoint a committee to inquire into the causes of the distress; [hear, hear, hear] and to endeavour to ascertain how it was that a people, possessed of, as a noble mover of the Address had observed, all the elements of power, should, in the course of a few years have become so wretched, crippled, and exhausted. They still had the power, they still possessed the means of regeneration; they had spirit, energy, enterprise, every thing which could conduce to prosperity, were it not for heavy taxation, and that surreptitious enhancement
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of the currency which pressed on the industrious classes, and wrung from the sweat of the brows more than twice the amount which they had formerly been compelled to pay. He begged the House, however, to recollect that the people were now exhausted; and, worse than all, that their feelings, from the severe pressure of distress, were undergoing a most dangerous change. Their respect for authority was changing fast for contempt. No man could shut his eyes to the nature and effect of the expressions which were now heard from the body of the people. No man could listen to the exclamations of distress which were heard from every part of the country, without lamenting the kind of milk-and-water language in which his Majesty had been advised to advert to that distress; although the language of the amendment did not come up to his idea of the sentiments which ought to inspire the members of that House on such a subject, and which they ought to express, yet, for the reasons he had stated, he was willing to give it his support.
Mr. Protheroesaid, he addressed the House, at that early stage of the debate, with unfeigned diffidence of his power to do justice to the subject. During the three sessions that he had enjoyed the honour to occupy a seat in the House, he had, on all occasions, preferred trusting to the language of others for the development of those measures, in the propriety of which he was willing to concur; but he thought the time was now arrived when the exertions of honesty and good intention were more requisite than the display of the greatest oratorical powers, and with that impression he ventured most humbly to offer himself thus early to their notice. That House had long been the subject of attack from men of a certain class and holding particular opinions; but it was now obvious that the opinions respecting its integrity and capacity were not confined to these persons, but that attacks the most violent, and urged in language the most vehement, were to be heard from quarters in which they had never before heard any thing but praise and approbation; from quarters which had been in the habit of lauding, indiscriminately, every act of authority and power, no matter in whose hands that power was reposed. The hollow murmur of discontent now approached the House from all quarters; and none had so accurately describe-

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ed the dreadful state of the country as the hon. member for Essex (Mr. Western). But so remarkable were the changes of opinions, that it was not long since he had read in a periodical publication remarkable for its devotion to power, a series of attacks on the members of that House, in which they were declared not only destitute of wisdom, but of every degree of firmness, integrity, or intelligence which would be required for the conduct of public affairs. He did not, in adverting to the nature of this language, intend to advise his Majesty's Attorney-general, whom he saw in his place, to prosecute the author or the editor of this publication, for using language calculated to bring the House and the government into contempt, but he wished to draw from it the conclusion, that the complaints against its constitution extended now to a very different class of society; that it had excited the attention and the condemnation of men who formerly regarded it with indifference or approbation, and that those who were interested in preserving the respect of the people should, by a timely and temperate reform, show their sense of the propriety of the remonstrances of those state physicians, [hear] Adverting to the language of the Address, he must express his conviction that it was a deliberate insult to the people. Those who advised it might have ascertained, with the slightest inquiry, if they were ignorant of the fact, that the distress was general, and he might add, universal; and he was satisfied that the remedy for that distress was not to be obtained from the exertions of any party within or without the walls of the House. The sentiments he uttered did not proceed from the spirit of party. He did not think that the country looked for its advocates amongst men of party feeling. It desired rather the exertion of humble abilities, fairly and honestly directed, than the aid of brilliant talents, tainted by feelings of party or ambition. He had drawn up the outline of an Amendment, which he had intended to submit to their consideration. It stated, in plain language, the nature of the distress, and pointed out the course which, in his humble opinion, ought to be adopted in the inquiries with respect to the remedy. He was confident, indeed, that the Speech did not, under the present circumstances, realize the expectations of the people; and the noble lord, whose duty it was to
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move the Address, must have felt himself as much crippled in his language, by its terms, as the dress in which custom required he should appear on such occasions must constrain the natural movements of his body.* In his opinion, the Address ought to have alluded to the melancholy fact, that the rent of the farmer was now paid solely out of his capital, and that trade of every kind, except that in money, was carried on without the slightest profit to the adventurer. He had taken leave to defend himself from the imputation of having been guilty of any act of taciturnity or uncourteousness in not communicating his intention to those members with whom he had been in the habit of acting during the time he occupied a seat in that House. The truth was, that there prevailed such a dissimilarity of opinions on all great political questions on that side of the House, that he scarcely knew to whom he should address himself. So many different parties were they divided into, that the House seemed to be more like a nursery of young statesmen than a collection of established politicians; and it was a matter of serious question whether the greater portion of the members on that (the Opposition) side of the House could be considered ministerial men or oppositionists. Delicacy, therefore, with regard to some, and ignorance with respect to the opinions of others, had forced him to rise thus early, and offer to the attention of the House an amendment, which, although it might be considered rather long, contained nothing but a plain statement of well-known facts. He could not move it, he was aware, till the amendment already proposed was disposed of; but perhaps the House would pardon him if he concluded his speech with reading it. [hear] The hon. member then read the following Amendment.
"That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to express to his Majesty the thanks of this House for his Majesty's most gracious Speech; and respectfully to inform his Majesty, that being assembled with the deepest impression of the extraordinary duties imposed on us by the unexampled difficulties and dangers of the country, we will direct our instant and earnest attention to those measures best
* The noble Lord was dressed in his military uniform; the custom being usually observed for the appointed mover and seconder of the Address to appear in full court dresses.

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calculated to maintain the dignity and stability of his Majesty's Throne, and to restore this nation to its ancient prosperity and happiness. To assure his Majesty of our undiminished attachment to his sacred person, and of our grateful conviction of his paternal feelings for the sufferings of his subjects; relying upon which, we consider it our first duty to lay before his Majesty a correct representation of the actual state of the country, and of all its leading interests, not concealing those wrongs and grievances which, with the assistance of a faithful parliament, his Majesty will delight to redress.
"To represent to his Majesty, that the measures recommended by his ministers, and adopted by parliament, have failed to restore the country, or to mitigate the calamities under which it is sinking.
"That the tendency of the present political, financial, and ecclesiastical systems, is to accumulate, in few hands, enormous masses of property, leaving the middle classes struggling to support a precarious credit, and the lower, in a degrading dependence for daily food.
"That neither the landowner nor the farmer has been enriched by the Corn Laws, while the bread of the poor is made dear, and the labourer is stinted in his hire.
"That the merchant, the shipowner, the manufacturer, the tradesman, are proceeding in hopeless efforts of industry, without remuneration, notwithstanding the extraordinary inventions of British science and ingenuity, and the increasing demands of extensive countries newly-opened to our trade.
"That the peasantry and operative mechanics, with wages or pay barely adequate to the support of life, are hastening to a state of universal pauperism, holding out temptations to the disregard and breach of laws that no longer afford security to property.
"That the pleasures of the rich are purchased by the demoralization of the poor, under the administration of Game-laws, originating in ages of feudal oppression, and pertinaciously adhered to and increased in severity by selfish legislation, whereby the prisons of the country are filled for offences not associated in the feelings of the people with moral guilt or delinquency.
"That by an ill-proportioned system of duties, having no reference but to the supply of a needy Exchequer, the poorer classes are deprived of the wholesome and
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nutritious drink of their forefathers, and are driven to the use of ardent spirits, alike destructive to their health and morals.
"That the nation is bowed down by a weight of taxation, which has been immoderately increased by laws affecting a change in the currency, made without a due consideration of the situation of the country, so that it is utterly unable to support the burthen.
"That it is impossible for the people to view, without disgust, the mockery of their distress, by a wasteful, blundering, and jobbing expenditure of the public money, in the erection of palaces and public buildings in the metropolis, alike devoid of taste and utility.
"That the people have a right to complain of the indecent and unjust continuance in undiminished amount, of various grants, pensions, salaries, and allowances which had been fixed or raised during the suspension of cash payments, upon the express plea and justification of the depreciation in value of money.
"That we receive with grateful satisfaction, his Majesty's assurance, that the reformation of the administration of the laws has occupied his Majesty's attentive consideration; and that we will devote our earnest attention to the communications his Majesty may direct to be made on these matters.
"That the tithe system (at all times an obnoxious and unpopular mode of providing for the clergy) is at this season of agricultural distress peculiarly galling in its operation, while the unequal distribution of the revenues of the church of England and Ireland, and the inadequate provision for those who perform its most active duties, are viewed with serious concern by the friends of the establishment, and afford just cause of scandal to its enemies.
"That the colonial interests of the country are plunged in a state of equal depression and suffering, the prices obtained for the produce of our colonies affording in general no profit in return for the capital, the labour, and the anxiety attending its cultivation.
"In acknowledging to his Majesty our conviction, that a state of national suffering and abuses so great and so general, after a long period of profound peace, and amidst so many elements of political prosperity, cannot have been produced without fundamental errors in legislation and. government.

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"Finally, to assure his Majesty that, although we cannot but feel how uncertain must be all dependence upon the acts of a Legislature, which does not and cannot as now constituted adequately represent the talents, the sentiments, and the wishes of the country, yet we will not fail, while maintaining the integrity of our admired Constitution, to consult in all our deliberations the spirit of an enlightened age, and the just petitions of the people, by decided retrenchment of expense, large reduction of taxation, and by a needful reform, commencing with our own House."
Mr. Ald. Waithmansaid, he had never been better pleased with any speech than with that of the hon. member who had just sat down. He trusted that the hon. baronet who moved the first amendment would withdraw it in favour of that just proposed, which seemed more fully to express what he trusted was the sense of the House, because it was much nearer the truth. Feeling so strongly as he did on the present occasion, he would give his hearty concurrence to any and every amendment which had for its object an inquiry into the existing distress. He must confess that, looking to the extreme distress of the country, he expected more from the royal Speech on the present occasion than he usually did on similar ones; but looking at the distress of the country, knowing that it was not confined to any particular place, he was surprised at the paragraph in the King's Speech. The paragraph about economy might be taken from every King's Speech during the last four years. The year 1826 was one of great calamity, so was the following-year, yet we were always assured that a system of the greatest economy would be observed. As to the noble duke at the head of the government, he knew of no individual in whom he could sooner place confidence; but, after past experience, he felt it impossible to place confidence in any man. In the year 1817 we were assured of a plan of strict economy, afterwards our army was reduced, and in the next year an increase took place. After this, could the House place confidence in what was stated by ministers? He knew from experience that it was impossible for a member of that House to place confidence in any ministers without its interfering with the strict performance of his duty. The royal Speech stated, that our exports had increased. The same thing was stated last year, and
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on many former years. It was evident that the official value of our exports had latterly increased, but it was equally evident that there was no profitable return for them; otherwise there would be larger imports. The fact was, the "real" value of our exports had decreased, as he had shown last year*; and as he would make still more clear to every man in the House and out of it, on a future evening. The public distress had been augmenting from year to year, until it had reached a point where it was past further endurance. Would any man stand up in his place and declare on his honour that the distress was confined merely to particular parts of the country? He was surprised that the hon. seconder of the Address had not made more particular allusion to the great body of traders in the city of London. The distress of that class was extreme. Their stocks had in general suffered a depreciation of 40 per cent. Their interests were not so fully represented in that House as those of other classes. The fact was, that the distress was not confined to any particular class, the great body of the people were equally distressed. The agriculturists undoubtedly, formed a great and important branch; but that portion of the community was not the only one that was now suffering. The distress equally affected the mercantile and manufacturing classes. He was much surprised, when an hon. member, not now in his place, brought forward a motion for inquiring into the distressed state of the country; he was, he confessed, surprised on that occasion, and he made the observation "more in sorrow than in anger," that the agriculturists did not exert themselves. But those gentlemen had now come to their senses—the danger had overtaken them—it was at their own door —and they stood forward boldly, honourably, and in a manner worthy of the aristocracy of the country. They, he was sure, could make an impression on that House and on the government. They had only to say, "This must be done," and it certainly would be done. They were told that no legislative measure could do any good—they were desired to trust in Providence—to trust, in short, to any thing but themselves. If this advice were correct, what was the use of their meeting together? It would be better to have no parliament
*Hansard's Parl. Deb., v. xxi., p. 1201.

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at all, rather than to meet for no purpose. He would say, if they were in such a hopeless situation, that the people were misrepresented—that they were misgoverned—and that the waste of the public wealth noticed in the amendment was perfectly true. [hear, hear] Such was really the present state of things; and if they looked back at what occurred for a series of years, and acted justly and fairly, there would then be some chance of reformation. If the things which he had described had happened in spite of their legislative measures,—in spite of their liberal policy, as it was called,—and if those measures were really founded in wisdom, there was no hope of salvation. But they had come to that pass, that they could not avoid doing something. He could not state the remedies that ought to be resorted to; but this he knew, that they must either bring up the prices to a level with the taxation, or bring down the taxation to a level with the prices. [hear] If parliament did not adopt one or other of these plans, he was as certain as that he stood there, that he should live to witness—and at his time of life he could not expect to see many years—a scene of dreadful confusion in this country. [hear] In stating his opinions, he was actuated by no ill feeling towards any party or set of men. He had nothing to hope or to expect from any party. He stood there merely to do his duty; and however unworthily placed in that House as one of the representatives of the metropolis of the British empire, he should betray his trust if he did not openly state his opinion. Therefore he entreated the House to forego all private and personal feeling, and to look to the general state of the country, every part of which was suffering under the most dreadful distress. [hear] To the original Address he could not agree, containing as it did, a palpable falsehood as to the distresses of the country.
Mr. E. Davenportsaid, many very material amendments ought to be added to the Address proposed by the noble lord. The first amendment ought to be a declaration of the expediency of getting rid of that immense military force which, in times of peace, their ancestors considered as an unconstitutional incumbrance, and which only enabled ministers to hold out bribes for the support of members of Parliament. The second obvious amendment was one which the circumstances of the country naturally suggested—namely, that if they
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had the capacity, they should pledge themselves to his Majesty to call the public servants to account, and to bring those to condign punishment who had betrayed their trust; and, with a view to their own emolument, continued to receive unreduced salaries to the present hour. As to the Speech which he had heard read, he thought he should be able to explain some portions of it which seemed to strike with surprise several hon. members who had spoken before him. In the first place, however, he begged leave to express his extreme concern at that part of the Speech which related to our diplomatic relations with Portugal. His view of that part of the Speech was different from that of the hon. baronet who moved the amendment; for he heard with great concern that his Majesty ever meant to conciliate a man whose conduct ought to put him out of the pale of the sovereigns of Europe. He should, if this were the proper time, dilate farther on this subject; but he would only say at present, that when the pressure of affairs enabled them to consider this question, he would bring before the House the subject of our relations with Portugal; and he would show on that day, that the existence of this monster (for so he would call him) on the throne of Portugal, was mainly owing to this country. The Speech declared, that the distress in the country was merely partial. This seemed to puzzle several gentlemen. But it was not difficult to show why that distress, which they all knew to be general, appeared to ministers to be only partial. The fact was, that amongst the land-owners of this country, there was a strong indisposition to do any thing that might hazard their losing the patronage of government. They would, he believed, rather encounter ruin than come forward and fairly declare the desperate condition in which landed property was. They did not like to state the fact plainly, lest they might thereby interfere with the prospects of the rising generation: that was the reason why they did not like to come forward, as they ought, to that House to seek redress. But what was the state of the gentry of England? Why, every man, whether a gentleman or a clergyman, [laughter] wished to make all the males of his family gentlemen, and this could only be done by placing them in the different professions. The attempt to attain that object had changed the once independent gentlemen of England, and

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turned them into courtiers. Lord Bacon had said, "A country overcharged with taxes cannot be thriving;" and he also observed, "Let any country that wishes to be great, not allow the nobility and gentry to increase too fast, for where the nobility and gentry are extremely numerous, the people will be base." This government seemed to proceed on a principle different from that. A body of ministers, abler, he supposed, than lord Bacon, had contrived, in the eighteen years during which his present majesty had been in power, to make no fewer than sixty peers; and he was informed by an individual who was conversant in these matters, that at the period of the Union a majority of the other House did not sit by hereditary descent. When they considered these points, it was not wonderful that the country gentlemen had not complained either to this or to the other House of parliament. The next point in the Speech related to the unfavourableness of the seasons. But would that account for all the distress? Would it account for a fall of thirty per cent in the price of cattle? Would it account for a reduction of thirty per cent in the value of cheese? Would it account for the fall in the price of every thing in the shop and in the warehouse? The next expression would be exceedingly consolatory, if we could attach the slightest authority to it. The expression to which he alluded was, that the distress was not of a permanent character. Now, he thought he could satisfy the House that the assertion was not worth one farthing. In 1828, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer was told of the danger that would ensue from the withdrawal of several millions of one-pound notes, he stated their amount at about 2,250,000 l.—a statement which was entirely erroneous. An individual had written to him on the subject, and stated that, on examination, he found that four-fifths of those notes had been out three years, and considerably above one-half of them had been out seven years. He therefore inferred that the amount was 7,000,000 l. or 8,000,000 l. instead of 2,250,000 l. And further, he must argue, that the increased issue of 5l. notes did not make up for the deficiency thus created, and that the issue of sovereigns was not likely to increase a circulation the basis of which was credit. As to the boast so often made in that House with reference to the extent of our exports, its
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fallacy had been clearly shown by the hon. alderman below him, particularly in the course of the last session. Ministers appeared to entertain strange ideas of political economy. They looked to the production of a vast quantity of goods as a proof of the flourishing state of the country, no matter whether those goods fetched any thing or nothing in the market. Now it was notorious that the master-manufacturers who had produced those goods had been obliged to sell them under prime cost. And was that, he would ask, a matter of boast to be inserted in a king's Speech? He knew that the noble duke at the head of the government entertained very singular ideas as to the situation of the country. He said that the extravagant system which prevailed during the war must be abandoned, and moderate and sober habits introduced [hear]. Sober habits, he admitted, were very good, but why not extend them to all—to ministers, to sinecurists, to all who live on the taxes? [hear] for if
"Order and sobriety,
Are the rules of his society,"
why not make them general? [cheers and laughter] But in many parts of the country, the people were sober enough to satisfy any body, being reduced to potatoes and water. The noble duke ought to recollect, that those sober people had each contributed his mite to present him with the most splendid reward ever given to a soldier. But he doubted whether they would have granted him 700,000 l. if they thought that he would have supported laws the tendency of which was to double that sum. In conclusion, he would observe, with respect to the national credit, that there were two species of debts—that which the government borrowed, and that which by Mr. Peel's bill was doubled. The first would be paid, but the second never would be, never could be, and never ought to be paid.
Mr. Alderman Thompson. — I should have contented myself by being silent this evening, if an hon. member had not adverted to a statement made which may go into society; and I feel that I owe it to my own character, and that it is due to the House, that I should give an explanation of the motives that actuate the class of the community to which I belong, as it will also serve to shew why I shall vote as I intend to do. If his majesty's ministers had simply announced that the distress did not affect one interest merely, but that

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it had spread generally over the country, there would have been little debating that night. He was not disposed, from any thing he had that evening heard, to withdraw his confidence from his majesty's ministers. He had no doubt the measures ministers would suggest would be those best calculated to relieve the overwhelming distress which now spread itself over every class of the community. But he must beg the right hon. gentleman to be cautious how he calculated the exports of the country to a vast extent. British manufactures had found no market at the price they could command a few years ago, but the merchants were compelled to send their goods abroad on the chance of sale anywhere, and at almost any price. The capitalist of London had changed his mode of dealing, and had lately assumed the character of a pawn-broker. British goods were sent in this way not to the continental markets merely, but to the whole world. There were goods now lying in the Custom-house which had been offered for sale in vain, and could be sold at no house at all in the city [hear]. The House was not the place to go into details of that kind; but if the House would permit him to read a letter which a friend had put into his hands this evening, they would know what was well enough known in the mercantile world, that the expenses on British goods exported exceed all possible profits that can be made by their sale [The worthy alderman here read the letter, which described the state of manufactured goods exported; adding, that they were sold in the foreign market at prices less than their production at home cost]. Since 1826, British manufactures had decreased from forty to fifty per cent in price. The noble Lord has said that he can depend on the energies of the country; that he is sure that London shops, machinery, and capital, will always beat the rest of the world in competition with it. I wish (continued the hon. alderman) I could bring my mind to believe his opinion; but I am afraid we overrate our resources. I know that there are manufacturers in this country who have been living on hope for four years, and who have labourers also living on hope with a much smaller subsistence. I saw a friend "who had recently returned from one of the largest districts in the country, and he said both masters and workmen were fast coming down to despair. I know that
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labourers perform most painful works, and that after fourteen hours of hard and constant labour, they can only earn, to maintain themselves, a few shillings, utterly insufficient. The retail dealers are sinking into distress for want of customers, and are unable to pay rates, rent, or taxes, and trade is altogether unprofitable. The shop-keepers are indulging in improbable hopes of amendment. Wretchedness, ruin, and misery swallow up all in their vortex. Every week in the Gazette is a long list of bankrupts, and a longer list of declared insolvents. I see no reason why the government should not exercise an unsparing economy. They may thus relieve the burthens of the people; and if such a course be not taken —if such a spirit do not actuate the government, the very worst consequences may ensue, [hear]—He then observed, he was sure some system might have been adopted by which they might have retained a paper currency, sound in its principle, and likely to work well, [hear, hear] He had never been an advocate for an unlimited paper currency; but still he said that something must be done, either by throwing an increased quantity of money into circulation, or by a reduction of the taxes. [hear, hear] Since the alteration, what had been the system pursued in the manufacturing districts? The manufacturers had got into the custom of paying their workmen in goods, keeping, as it were, a sort of chandler's shop for provisions and clothing, and supplying, he was sorry to say, not sufficient quantities to support the workmen. He now wished to state the grounds on which he could not support the amendment of the hon. baronet. [laughter, and cries of hear!] It was because he thought it better to wait for the government to develope their scheme; and if he should deem it insufficient, he should then feel it to be his duty to give his immediate support to those gentlemen, who, he must however say, he believed were as anxious for a change of men as they were for a change of measures. [hear, hear]
Sir J. Sebrightsaid, he had no doubt that his majesty's ministers would do all in their power to relieve the distresses of the country; but at all events the House must do its duty; and with such feelings he should support the amendment, which more accurately described the distresses of the country.
The Chan. of the Exchequersaid, that for

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some years past it had been the admitted practice of that House, when they thanked his Majesty for his communication, to reserve for subsequent discussion those branches of the Speech which any hon. member might think afforded topics for the consideration of Parliament. The hon. baronet had, however, thought that the present occasion was one on which it was right to depart from the usual custom, and he had therefore moved an amendment to one paragraph in the Speech; though he must be allowed to say that it appeared to him to vary very little from the substance of the paragraph of which the hon. baronet would complain. The Speech stated that his majesty lamented that there was distress in some parts of the country, and the hon. baronet chose to assume that the statement there made was false and unfounded. He could assure the House that, however much many gentlemen might feel for the distress of the people, none partook more deeply of that feeling than those on whom the responsibility fell of advising his majesty; and he trusted that the House would not entertain a different opinion on this point because the ministry had thought it to be their duty to advise the king to present to parliament, not an exaggerated picture of what existed, but one that they believed to be correct, from the best information they were able to procure on the subject. It was not to be denied that there was a great and severe pressure of distress in the manufacturing and agricultural parts of the community in some parts of the United Kingdom; and if he excepted some portions from that summary, it was because he believed that there were parts which, so far from being visited with such an affliction, were enjoying a comparative state of ease and of comfort. [hear, hear] It was observable that the hon. baronet had confined his statements to England only; but he had omitted noticing that part of the United Kingdom which at all times had commanded much of the care and attention of that House—he alluded to Ireland. [hear] If the hon. baronet had investigated the state of the agricultural produce in that country, he would have found that great prosperity and comfort were existing; and he would likewise have found that there were parts of this country in which much of the pressure that existed had arisen from the free introduction of Irish produce; so that in
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proportion as one part of the kingdom was depressed, at least another portion was benefitted and advanced. If this were the case, how could his Majesty have been advised to inform the parliament that a state of distress pervaded the kingdom generally? And it was undoubtedly the case, that in the northern parts of the country, there were districts in which the distress complained of had not been felt in any such degree.—He felt it impossible to address himself to the subject of the amendment without, to a certain extent, taking into consideration the speeches by which that amendment had been supported. The hon. member for Essex (Mr. Western) had supported the amendment of the hon. baronet, and he could not forget the principle upon which that support had been given; so that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) found himself still further precluded from giving his support to the amendment, when he heard the grounds on which that amendment was supported. Was there a man who had heard those speeches who did not feel that the object of them was to make an alteration in the standard of value, or at least in the currency of the country, so as to change those laws which the parliament had sanctioned, after a most mature and anxious deliberation? [hear, hear] Nor was this attempted at a period soon after the establishment of those laws, but now, ten years subsequently: so that he certainly thought that they were called upon to discuss the subject de novo, rather than in reference to transactions which were ten years old. He was not disposed to enter into that discussion at present, but he must say that to entertain the proposition of altering the standard of value which was laid down in 1819 as the basis of our circulation, or to concur in the restoration of the circulating medium of one-pound notes, were concessions which the government would never be prepared to make, [loud cheers] as they were concessions which were not required by the state of the country. [hear, hear] By pursuing this conduct, the government might not perhaps be providing for their popularity at the present moment; but he believed that they were pursuing the true course to benefit the country, and for its future acquiescence in the justice of their conduct [hear]. For these reasons he felt it to be his duty to oppose the amendment of the

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hon. baronet, and he knew not to what object any individual would be looking who should give it his support. There was nothing in his majesty's Speech to agree with which would preclude the opening of any topic in future; there was nothing in the Address which pledged any one as to the degree of sympathy which he was to feel for the distresses of the country; there was nothing which precluded their inquiring into any subject; and, in short, the Speech comprised in itself what had appeared to his majesty's ministers to be the strict and literal truth [hear]. In agreeing with the Address, it did not prevent any gentleman undertaking the controversion of any isolated fact: above all, it did not pledge any member to any particular course, beyond that of a disposition to economize the public money. For these reasons he should avoid addressing himself to any of those particular topics which had been started; and, indeed, his principle reason for offering himself to the attention of the House was for the purpose of assuring it that it was the firm determination of his majesty's government to adhere to those measures which had that night been so freely discussed, and which he firmly believed to be calculated to afford the greatest advantage to the country, [hear]
Mr. Maberlysaid, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the Speech which he had just concluded, appeared to think that the sole object of the hon. baronet, and of those who supported his amendment, was to alter the standard of value, or to return wholly to a paper currency. Such was by no means the fact; and he (Mr. Maberly) would, on a future occasion, tell the right hon. gentleman how a paper currency might be adopted without once touching the standard of value. For his part, he had not heard from the hon. baronet that he wanted either an alteration of the standard, or an equitable adjustment, or any such thing. The principle on which the hon. baronet had dealt with the Speech was, that he did not consider it sufficiently explicit of the intentions of his majesty's ministers. It was quite clear that ministers were bound to propose some remedy for the evils that prevailed. Did they not know that the alteration of the currency caused the distress? He maintained that a great deal both of distress and difficulty might have been avoided by more careful measures respect-
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ing the one-pound notes. Did ministers say that they recommended a reduction of taxation?—No, but they recommended what? Why—nothing more than caution. [hear] Yes, caution was the only thing they recommended, not one word being said about the reduction of taxes. But the people could not go on paying-taxes if the present low profits upon all produce continued. That House would not do its duty, either to the sovereign or to the people, if it did not support every measure which tended to diminish the severe burthens of the people. Disregarding for the present every other remedy, he would undertake on an early day to propose one which should stand and run. [laughter] Yes, he would propose a measure for establishing a safe paper currency, without at all interfering with the standard. On what basis did the present metallic currency stand? Why, entirely on the Bank of England, the capital of which was largely employed in Exchequer-bills and other securities—securities, too, that at various periods, as in the year 1825, for instance, were not convertible. To talk about a metallic currency, was quite idle, there was no sound metallic currency in the country, what there was must give way in time of pressure. It was infinitely better to have a steady paper circulation than a metallic currency, which might be so affected. The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not recommend inquiry; and why? Because he said he could not sanction any alteration in the measures relating to the currency. He did not object to the right hon. gentleman taking the remedy into his own hands, if he only told them what he meant to do; but what he particularly complained of was, that there was to be no remedy at all. Nothing but caution was recommended. The House, he hoped, would take upon itself that duty which the right hon. gentleman neglected. He hoped that the House would institute an inquiry to ascertain what taxes might be reduced. There were seven millions of taxes laid upon beer and malt, but why was not this impost laid upon beer alone, or upon malt alone? No, this was not to be done, and the reason was obvious, because the expense of collection on both together was 370,000 l. a-year. He complained of the expense of collecting some other taxes, and expressed his earnest hope that the House would promptly institute an in-

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quiry into the existing distress, with a view to providing some effectual remedy. If the House insisted upon a large reduction of the taxation, the ministers would soon shape the expenditure accordingly.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he did not presume to think that either redress to the people or instruction to the House could follow from the few observations which he should trespass on the House on the present occasion. The people had sent him thereto do their business, and in the discharge of his duty he felt that he was authorised to express his humble opinion as to the state of the country. In the discharge of that duty also, he might have to address them of tener than he could wish; and the only compensation that he could make was, to promise to be as brief as he possibly could. He had now to address himself to the Speech from the Throne, of which he felt himself bound to speak in as harsh terms as he might consistently with the respect to which it was entitled; it was entitled to respect as emanating from the king—and the king's name was a tower of strength; it was entitled to courtesy as proceeding from the noble duke at the head of state affairs and of the government; and, on these accounts, he should treat it with respect and courtesy; but when he looked at what the document was in itself, he felt warranted in saying that anything so unsatisfactory in its propositions, and so meagre in its details, could scarcely have been concocted or conceived, [hear] The seconder of the Address, in his observations, had alluded to France and America. Did he think that in France, with its new institutions, such a Speech would have been endured by the real representatives of that people? [hear] Or did he think that a message from the chief magistrate of the Americans, containing such jejune and empty statements, would have been tolerated for a moment? [hear] Let the House contrast it with the message that had lately been sent by the President of the United States. Let them look at the minuteness of detail, let them look at the wise suggestions which that message contained, and then compare it with the Speech which they then had before them. Would any one pretend to tell him that if that House really represented the people at large, such a Speech would ever have been offered to their consideration? [hear]
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What did it contain? The first point was, that foreign nations continued to speak in terms of peace; but did they ever do otherwise when a war was on the point of breaking out, or even when the war itself had actually commenced? The next information was, that the Russian war was at an end. That was an important discovery, indeed; and, of course, none of them knew that before [a laugh.] They were then told that nothing was determined as to Portugal. And why? Ah! they were not told that [hear]. Was the character of Don Miguel then doubtful? Did any one doubt that he had usurped the throne of another, and endeavoured to cement his seat by the spilling of innocent blood? [hear] If so, why did the government of England shrink from the decision to which it ought to come? They were next told of the partial distress of the country. But was that a fact? He thought that the expressions which had fallen from the three hon. members on the other side who had supported the Address, were—the one, that the distress was general; the second, that the distress was extraordinary; and the third, that the distress was overwhelming. [laughter and cries of hear, hear] The chancellor of the Exchequer, however, had made one happy discovery; he had found an "Oasis in the desert"—a country where no distress at all existed: and, who would have thought it?—that country was Ireland. [laughter] He had lately been in Ireland, but anything more astonishing he certainly had never heard in his life. Was it then not true, that there were seven thousand registered persons in Dublin alone actually living on three half-pence a day, and that even that miserable pittance was almost exhausted — the first subscription (with the lord lieutenant at the head) amounting to 3,500 l. and the second to no more than 300 l.? Why, if this were true, what very cruel landlords, what very stingy agriculturists must Ireland contain, that they should be in such a state of prosperity, and not even contribute a farthing to such miserable objects of pity, [hear] He did not like to pledge himself to any statement of facts, as to every part of the country, but he pretty well knew three provinces in Ireland—the provinces of Leinster, Connaught, and Munster, and he knew that the agriculturalists in those three provinces were suffering the greatest dis-

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tress. In many parts of those provinces the rents were paid, not out of the profits of the land, but out of the capital of the farmer. There had been various instances in which the rents had been obtained only by levying an execution, and by the sale even of the very blankets with which the unfortunate tenant had been covered. In the production of that distress, as far as his information went, many causes concurred, but unquestionably the state of the currency was one of those causes. He felt that he had a right to complain of the omission of all allusion to these circumstances in the Speech; and he felt that he had a right to complain that all allusion to the state of Ireland was omitted in that speech, and that it was alluded to only in a kind of parenthesis in the Speech of the right honourable the chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. gentleman had given a pledge on the part of his majesty's government that they would not propose any measure of interference with the currency. He (Mr. O'Connell) was convinced that they could not adhere to that pledge without diminishing the taxation of the country, and reducing it, not by candle-ends and cheese-parings, but by millions upon millions, [hear hear] Instead of keeping up a taxation of sixty millions, if we persevered in a gold currency, we must cut that taxation down to fifteen or twenty millions. [hear] Let that be done; and then the currency might be maintained in its present state. Among the great causes of the distress of the people, were the abuses existing in the courts of law. Those abuses ought to be corrected equally in the courts of common law, in the courts of equity, in the courts of admiralty, and in the ecclesiastical courts. He therefore warmly approved of that passage in the Speech in which his majesty stated that "his attention had been of late earnestly directed to various important considerations connected with improvements in the general administration of the law." That was the solitary passage in the whole of the Speech which met with his cordial approbation. There must be reforms in the law, the present piebald system of Equity, Common-law, of the Ecclesiastical and Admiralty courts (different in each) must be simplified and assimilated. He offered his humble meed of sincere thanks to the right hon. Secretary (Mr. Peel) for his successful attempts to break down some of the legal defects
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which deformed the system. But we should proceed further; banish the barbarities of special pleading, and cause all our courts to act upon one consistent and defined principle. That distress existed in many places must be admitted. The chancellor of the Exchequer admitted its existence in England. What was the cause of this? Was it owing to want of industry, intelligence, economy, or perseverance in the people? Certainly not; the people of England were possessed of all these qualities in an eminent degree, and yet they were distressed. What was the cause of this? It was to be found, not in the people, but in the misgovernment to which they had been subjected. One salutary effect of the existing distress would probably be, that it would deprive the administration of the confidence of the people. If they met in their cities and counties, and made use of a gentle and constitutional compulsion towards ministers, ministers would yield, and a salutary reform would be the consequence. As he had before stated, we should have a thorough reform of the law. Talk not of modifying the Game-laws for instance, but abolish that cruel code altogether which now filled our prisons. There should be an investigation of the state of the representation, with a view to render it satisfactory to the people, who, if properly represented, could not complain with justice of the measures adopted by parliament. If the people, instead of being properly, or even partially represented, were left unrepresented—if there was a traffic in boroughs to fill up the ranks of the ministerial legions, it could not be expected that the people should be satisfied. He looked forward to the existing distress with satisfaction in one point of view—it would cause the people to raise their voice aloud, and demand a radical and complete reform. He had now made some confession of his political faith. From the people he came—they had sent him thither to do the work of the people. He should support the amendment proposed by the hon. baronet, the member for Kent; and if that were lost, he wished to propose a resolution to the effect that the existence of distress being admitted, and that this distress not being caused by any fault of the people, it was the first duty of the House to inquire into its causes, with a view to affording radical and satisfactory relief to all parties. He would

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then move (supposing his resolution to be adopted) that the House do sit from day to day until it had ascertained the causes of the public distress. [cheers and laughter]
Mr. Huskissonsaid, there had been already one amendment proposed, and notice given of no fewer than three others. He was far from censuring the practice of proposing amendments on such occasions as the present. He came down to the House altogether ignorant of the contents of his Majesty's Speech, and equally ignorant of the intention of the hon. baronet, or of any other gentleman, to propose an amendment; but an amendment having been moved, and a debate having arisen upon it, he felt called upon, without reference to the possibility of prospective arrangements, which might be for consideration hereafter, to express his opinion on the subject with reference to the simple matter of fact as to the state of the country, which was the real question in issue. If the question were as to any particular mode of relief, it would be equally unwise and unbecoming to go into it when assembled to thank his majesty for his gracious Speech; accordingly, from anything of that sort he should cautiously abstain. But, after what he had heard from the noble mover and hon. seconder of the proposed Address, after all that had fallen from those who had subsequently addressed the House, and from his own knowledge of facts, he felt bound to state his opinion that the real facts of the case, as regarded the public distress, were more correctly stated in the amendment moved by the hon. baronet than in the Address proposed by the noble lord. [hear] Entertaining that opinion, whatever might be his wish to abstain from saying anything upon this occasion, he was no longer at liberty to support an Address which did not contain so accurate an estimate of the actual state of the country as was to be found in the amendment. He thought it a material circumstance in the present state of universal disquietude and dissatisfaction that prevailed, not to provoke a hostile discussion between the representatives of the people and the people themselves, and not to call down on the House of Commons reproach by understating the distress and difficulty of the time. The best course to be adopted in order to meet and overcome these difficulties was to look at and avow them fairly. He was not one of those who thought the difficulties so great as they
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had been represented in many quarters— he did not despair of seeing the country restored to a situation of prosperity; but from all the information he possessed, he felt satisfied that there now existed that degree of pressure on the productive classes generally, which, were it to be permanent or long continued, would be incompatible with their continuous existence. [hear] He was of opinion that the country, as far as the productive classes were concerned, was in an unsatisfactory and suffering, but he trusted and believed not in a decaying and falling state. If parliament looked at the subject properly, and acted as a part of the Speech recommended, they would find themselves fully competent to cope with the existing difficulties, and to overcome them. But it was by studying to benefit, to the utmost, the industrious classes that we could alone lay any solid foundation of public happiness, or revive prosperity. There were many things difficult to be accounted for in our present condition, but which parliament would do well to attend to. Some gentlemen attributed the distress to a supposed deficiency in the currency,—a proposition which he thought it would be difficult to maintain, for we now saw money more abundant in this metropolis than at any former period; we saw Exchequer-bills producing two-and a-quarter per cent interest, selling at a premium of 75s., and we saw the low rate at which money was every day borrowed. The fact was, there was a stagnation in several parts of our productive industry, and an overflow of capital in others. It was cause of satisfaction to observe, that the produce of our exports last year exceeded the exports of any preceding year, but at the same time we knew that the capital and property so employed had in many instances been unproductive. It would be difficult to reconcile the two facts of a deficient currency and a low rate of profit. In almost all branches of productive industry the profits were so small as not to compensate for the amount of capital employed, or afford sufficient support to the individuals whose labour was required. There must be some irregularity of action in our condition. Circumstanced as we were, to propose to increase the currency would be similar to recommending an individual, subject to too great and rapid an action of the blood, to drink a quantity of brandy. He would not support the hon. baronet's motion if by so doing he should

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be thought to imply an assent to some of the doctrines urged by its supporters. So far was he from concurring in those doctrines, that he had heard with satisfaction what fell from the chancellor of the Exchequer in answer to them. He was satisfied that among the causes of disquietude and dissatisfaction that existed, were the delusive hopes, the unfounded apprehensions, and general anxiety, that, must prevail in a country, so long as that which formed the measure of value with respect to property was subject to doubt and change. If then we had even been in error (which he was far from admitting, but maintained the contrary) in 1819, 1825, or 1826, it would be better to persevere than to unsettle the state of the country, by again tampering with the currency. [hear] It was to other means that the country must look for relief. An unsettled state of the public mind was one of the greatest evils that could befall a country. He did not collect from the speech of the hon. baronet, that any member was required to commit himself to particular measures if he supported the amendment. His right hon. friend hinted that distress was not so general as the amendment would make it appear; but all his ingenuity could not prove that the distress was confined to some particular parts of the country, as the Address stated. The productive classes generally were in a state of distress. He believed that this was owing to causes, to many of which it was beyond the power of parliament to apply a remedy; but it was in their power to satisfy the country as to what the causes were, and to afford partial relief by giving a better direction to the capital of the country; upon that point he differed materially from the hon. seconder of the address. The hon. member seemed to hint that the reduction of the rate of interest in some of the higher denominations of the public securities would operate favourably, but it appeared to him that even that reduction was far from being an unmixed good. The amendment had been described to be a "milk-and-water amendment," but that rather recommended it to his support [hear and laughter.] He did not wish to enter into the large field of foreign politics, but he might observe, in passing, that his Majesty's Speech merely stated that the war between Russia and Turkey had terminated. This was the statement of a fact, it had been said,
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before known; but such statements were not uncommon in speeches from the throne. For his part, he was glad that it was stated simply that the war had terminated, without any explanation of the mode by which that termination had been effected. [hear and laughter] It was a received principle, that the independence of Turkey was necessary to the maintenance of a just balance of power in Europe, and that circumstance did throw upon government the onus of showing that there was nothing in the treaty between Turkey and Russia contrary to this principle. However, when the documents were before the House, it would be time enough for them to discuss how far the spirit of the treaty of the 6th July had been preserved. Up to the arrival of the Russians in Adrianople, no great progress appeared to have been made in the cause of the Greeks. With respect to Portugal, whatever disposition there had been, during the two last sessions, to abstain from looking into the question of our foreign relations, he hoped that we should no longer avoid an inquiry which it was necessary for the character of the country to make [hear] A recognition of Don Miguel had been hinted at, but if it was carried into effect we ought to receive more information on the subject than we had obtained last session. Till we had obtained further information, we were not in a situation to investigate whether (not merely in reference to the question of legal right, but with regard to the honour of the country, and our ancient alliance with Portugal) we had properly discharged all our obligations. He had witnessed with great regret in his Majesty's Speech, which ought to advert to all matters of general interest, an omission of all reference to wars waging in another hemi-sphere. There was a treaty of peace and amity between this country and Mexico, and he should have thought that the efforts made to prevent the industry of that country from taking a natural direction, that the attempts at a predatory warfare, inconsistent with the revival of industry in Mexico and other states of the new continent, inconsistent with the interests of commerce and navigation, hostile to the proper management of the mines of South America, which it was our interest to have as -productive as possible,—he thought that these were matters which required some notice, and he should have been glad to

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hear that his majesty continued to use endeavours for the restoration of peace, tranquillity, and security in the new states, in the prosperity of which this country had the greatest possible interest. It was not the interests of trade and commerce that were alone concerned, the matter did not relate to this country only. Europe had the greatest possible interest that South America should be in a state of tranquillity and independence, and that those states should be made valuable and useful civilized societies. There was a time when these states looked up to this country as a power ready to rescue them from impending dangers, not by military demonstrations, but by its good offices, of which they were worthy as far as they could be exerted, if not in reference to their peace and tranquillity, yet with reference to our own interest. The omissions of the Speech had been complained of — it did not advert to Ireland. He did not pretend to know with any degree of accuracy the state of Ireland. He should have thought, that after the great act of justice of last session, we might have been told whether that measure had produced all the benefits which he for one had anticipated. He believed it had produced great benefits: he believed that such had been the effect of that great measure of justice, conciliation, and relief, which was so strongly recommended in the royal Speech of last session. It was not matter of surprise with him, therefore, that Ireland did not hold so prominent a position as some gentlemen appeared to suppose it ought; but it was matter of surprise to him that the effect of this measure had not been mentioned. He concluded by declaring that he felt himself bound in justice to support the amendment, because it expressed the facts of the case with more justice to the feelings of the House, and to the duty which the throne and the country had a right to expect from them, than the original amendment.
Mr. Sec. Peelsaid, he certainly was not surprised to hear his right hon. friend say, that the chief recommendation of the hon. baronet's amendment in his eyes consisted in its being "a milk-and-water amendment," because when he recollected the votes uniformly given by his right hon. friend, and the doctrines which he had uniformly held, he must say, that the smallest possible infusion of milk in the
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water was precisely that which would best suit the right hon. gentleman's constitution, [hear and laughter] The doctrine of his right hon. friend (Mr. Huskisson) had been, on former occasions, when changes were called for, "beware how you excite fallacious hopes—trust to the native energy—the natural elasticity of our resources, by which we have so often triumphed; and do not risk the permanent interests of the country by rash experiments on the capital and industry of our fellow-subjects." The right hon. gentleman had not only resisted practical measures, but committees of inquiry, lest he should excite false expectations; and now, hearing an amendment proposed, on principles from which he totally dissents, he is, nevertheless, prepared to support it, because he thinks the exposition of facts contained in the amendment better than that in the Speech from the throne. What course did the right hon. gentleman take with regard to the committee moved for to inquire into the state of the currency? He resisted its appointment to the last, lest its appointment should unsettle men's minds, and upon the same principle he resisted the inquiry into the state of the silk trade last session. [hear] However, it would have been more consistent if his right hon. friend had waited till he heard what specific measures were to be proposed, before he opposed his majesty's government. It would have been better if he had not endeavoured to raise the expectations of the country, as they must be raised, if we admitted the existence of universal distress, and dissented from the Speech from the throne, stating that his majesty's ministers had been misinformed —that all our interests were suffering under no ordinary pressure, and that we would direct our efforts to provide relief. Depend upon it, if you vote the amendment now proposed, and if it shall turn out that your efforts to relieve the distress are vain, you will have done more harm than good, and you will have raised expectations which it will be impossible to fulfil. The amendment was not correct; the expressions contained in it narrowed the sentiments of the king's Speech instead of extending them; it spoke of distress "in particular places;" the Speech mentioned "some parts of the United Kingdom" as being distressed, a wider and more comprehensive expression. As to the omission of certain topics in the Speech

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and among the rest, the omission of all mention of Ireland, he certainly did think, that after the completion of that measure in which Ireland took such a deep interest, —after that country had been placed on a footing of equality with the rest of the empire,—there existed no necessity for making special mention of a part of the kingdom which had no longer any thing to distinguish it from the remainder. Since the passing of that measure it might be said of the two countries—
—"Paribus se legibus ambæ
"Invietæ gentes æterna in fœdera mittant."
The quotation had been applied by Mr. Pitt to the expected effect of the Union, and certainly it was not less appropriate when used with reference to the measure recently accomplished. Under such circumstances, it might fairly be said, that the time had arrived when we might consider the condition of Ireland the same as that of the other parts of the United Kingdom, and except the occurrence of special circumstances required it, Ireland need not be particularly mentioned. It "was now to be looked upon as England or Scotland. He would say, however, that the condition of Ireland was now much better and more satisfactory than it had been previous to the last session of parliament. An hon. gentleman had drawn a comparison, unfavourable to the latter, between the American President's Message and his Majesty's Speech. Whatever might be that gentleman's satisfaction at the tenor of the American message, his was as great. The manner in which England was mentioned by the president gave his majesty's government, in common with all other classes of their fellow-subjects, the sincerest pleasure; and he was glad of that opportunity to repeat the expressions of amity and friendship used by that distinguished man when speaking of this country. His words were these:—"With Great Britain, alike distinguished in peace and war, we may look forward to years of peaceful, honourable, and elevated competition. Everything in the condition and history of the two nations is calculated to inspire sentiments of mutual respect, and to carry conviction to the minds of both, that it is their policy to preserve, the most cordial relations. Such are my own views, and it is not to be doubted that such are also the prevailing sentiments of our constituents." He re-echoed these sentiments:
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—May all the competition between the two countries be the competition of industry, civilization, and peace!—May the foolish sentiments of individual hostility entertained by some in both countries, gradually vanish before the influence of good sense and right feeling: and, as both nations possess a common language, and are derived from a common source, may they be united in lasting relations of goodwill and amity! He gladly took this opportunity, on the part of the English government, of re-echoing, with respect to America, those kindly sentiments which her President had expressed towards us. But in contrasting the two Speeches, the hon. gentleman began by complaining of the mention made in his majesty's Message of so notorious a fact as the termination of hostilities between Russia and Turkey. As his majesty had announced to parliament the breaking out of the war between these powers, it was proper that he should mention its termination. The hon. gentleman also complained of our treatment of Don Miguel, and spoke of the supposed feelings of America if she had received such a Speech as the English parliament had received on the subject. But the fact was, that the American President recognized Don Miguel, as was apparent from this passage of his message: "During the recess of Congress, our diplomatic relations with Portugal have been resumed. The peculiar state of things in that country caused a suspension of the recognition of the representative who presented himself, until an opportunity was had to obtain from our official organ their information regarding the actual, and as far as practicable prospective, condition of the authority by which the representative in question was appointed. This information being received, the application of the established rule of our government in like cases was no longer withheld." [hear, hear] The hon. gentleman attributed all our distresses to misgovernment, and to defects in our representative system; but, unfortunately for his hypothesis, the same distress which we complained of in England existed in America, where the representation was constructed on the basis of universal suffrage. [hear] What said President Jackson on this subject?—"No very considerable change has occurred during the recess of Congress, in the condition of either our agriculture, commerce, or manufactures. The operation of the tariff has

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not proved so injurious to the two former, nor as beneficial to the latter, as was anticipated. Importations of foreign goods have not been sensibly diminished, while domestic competition, under an illusive excitement, has increased the production much beyond the demand for home consumption. The consequences have been low prices, temporary embarrassment, and partial loss. That such of our manufacturing establishments as are based upon capital, and are prudently managed, will survive the shock, and be ultimately profitable, there is no good reason to doubt." With respect to the amendment, during the last thirty years there had been no occasion upon which an amendment to an Address had been carried;*—that in nineteen years out of the thirty no amendment was proposed;—and that the present was an Address in respect of which no objection could be made, with the exception of the omission of two or three topics. A gentleman complained of the policy of late governments in adding to the House of Peers; but from this charge the duke of Wellington, who had made only one peer since he became prime minister, was free. The Speech stated the increase of exports in the last year; and it was said we inferred from thence that our trade and commerce were in a flourishing condition. But we inferred no such thing; we only stated facts; and, notwithstanding the increased exports, his majesty regretted the prevalence of distress in some parts of the kingdom. It was said ministers had not stated facts correctly, and that they were indifferent to the distress, because they recommended no remedy. Where was the proof that the Speech from the throne misstated facts? Was the House prepared at once, without inquiry, and without the necessary information before it, to sanction by its vote the allegation made in the amendment of the hon.
* It had probably escaped Mr. Peel's recollection, that upon one occasion, [Sess. 1812; see Hansard's Parl. Deb. vol xxi, p. 17, first series sir Francis Burdett by immediately rising upon the Lords Commissioners Speech having been read, and first catching the eye of the Speaker, who therefore decided that the hon. baronet was in possession of the House, moved an Address which would otherwise have been proposed as an amendment, so that the ministerial intended Address was necessarily proposed as the Amendment, by Lord Jocelyn, and so carried.
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baronet, that the distress was universal, and existed throughout all parts of the country? The hon. baronet's amendment stated that all the productive interests of the country were suffering severely under a general depression. There was no qualification whatever in the statement. Was the House prepared, in the face of Europe, to sanction such a statement? [hear] "Distress exists in my own. neighbourhood," argued the hon. baronet and those who support him, "therefore I am bound to conclude that the distress is universal amongst all the productive interests of the country." Should not the House pause before it founded a statement as to such an important matter upon evidence of such description? Should not the House pause before it took for granted any such statement, the more particularly when it found this important fact mentioned in the Speech from the throne, namely—that the exports of British produce during the last year had far exceeded those of any former year? It was rather extraordinary, with such a gratifying statement in his majesty's Speech, to find an amendment proposed, which declares, that all the productive interests of the country are labouring under severe depression. The House should therefore hesitate before it adopted such a proposition. [cheers] But it might be said, that this was no proof of the prosperity of the country, and perhaps it would be added, that all these exports were sold at a loss, and that no return was made from them. But was it to be supposed that, year after year, from the year 1819,—for that was the period from which the distress was dated, — was it to be imagined that year after year, from that time, the manufacturers of this country had continued manufacturing and exporting at a positive loss? [hear] Was it probable that such a thing could have occurred? But then it was asserted, that let the amount of our foreign exports be what they might, our home market was depressed; and that while an increase had taken place in our exports to foreign countries, a great and corresponding decline had taken place in our home consumption. He would at once meet and deny that assertion. [hear] No corresponding decline in our home consumption had taken place at all to be put in contradistinction to the in crease in our foreign exports. The allegation was, that the distress existed

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universally throughout England, Ireland and Scotand. He held in his hand returns to disprove to a great extent the truth of that assertion. He was compelled to refer to matters of detail to furnish arguments to induce the House to pause before it adopted the proposition of the hon. baronet. He was prepared to show, from documents in his possession, that there had not been the falling-off that had been stated in the internal consumption of the country. He had been furnished with comparative statements of the amount of tons carried, and of the tonnage duties received, upon the principal canals, for a certain number of years, and the important fact which they established should be well weighed by the House before it pledged itself to the opinion of the hon. baronet, so contradictory as it was to the statement made from the throne. These statements exhibited a comparative increase year after year in the amount of business done on the principal canals. He would take a cipher as the foundation of his respective statements, which would furnish no indication of the comparative business of one canal compared with that of another; but which would actually show at the the same time the general increase of business done on those canals, proving an increase in the internal consumption of the country. These returns commenced with the year 1820,—that year when the bill which he (Mr. Peel) would never disclaim, though so much obloquy had been thrown upon it—he meant the bill for regulating the metallic standard, and restoring the currency, took effect. He had expressly desired that they should be made out that year, for he well remembered, that when that bill came into operation, prophecies without number were propounded, that the commercial transactions and concerns of this country were so complicated and so multiplied, that any attempt to carry such a measure into effect would tend to cramp and depress the energies of the country. He was ready to take his stand by what had occurred in our foreign trade; but he would fortify himself by proofs of an increase also in our home consumption. The returns which he had procured were from the Forth and Clyde canals, from the duke of Bridge water's Canal, from the Grand Junction Canal, from the Kennet and Avon, and from the Berkeley and Gloucester Canals. In the
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year 1820, the amount of tons on the Forth and Clyde Canal was three thousand two hundred and ninety; in the year 1821, four thousand and twenty-eight; in 1822, four thousand four hundred and sixty; in 1823, four thousand eight hundred and seventy-four; in 1824, four thousand eight hundred and seventy-four; in 1825, five thousand eight hundred and four; in 1826, five thousand seven hundred and fifty-eight; in 1827, five thousand eight hundred and eighteen; and, in 1828 (the last year to which the accounts were made up,) five thousand nine hundred and seventy. Thus, in the year 1828, the amount of tons was five thousand nine hundred and seventy, while the average of the eight preceding years was four thousand eight hundred and forty-three, giving an increase in the year 1828 to the amount of one thousand tons upon this canal. Upon all the other canals a similar progressive increase had taken place in their business, from the year 1819 till the year 1828. On the duke of Bridge water's canal, in the year ending the 1st of January, 1830, the average amount of tonnage was one thousand five hundred and eighty-six, while, in the year 1829, the average was one thousand one hundred and fourteen; so that it appeared that the average amount of tonnage on that canal for the last year exceeded that of the former year by nearly five hundred tons. It might here be said that though the tonnage had increased, the tonnage duties had not. Now he had expressly inquired as to the amount of duties received, and this was the result. Upon the Grand Junction Canal, the average amount of the tonnage duties received for the eight preceding years was 8,606 l., last year the average had risen to 9,000 l. On the Grand Trunk Canal, the average of the eight preceding years was 8,001 l. last year it had risen to 14,049 l. Upon the Kennet and Avon the average for the same period was 1,699/., last year it amounted to 2,190/. The average amount of tonnage duties upon the river Avon for the same period was 1,547/.; last year it had mounted to 1,7067. The average amount upon the Berkeley and Gloucester Canal for the seven years preceding 1828, was 1,069 l. It had increased in 1828 to 2,235 l.; and last year,to 2,360 l. Here, on this canal, the average was more than doubled in the course of two years. These facts should

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induce the House to pause before it sanctioned the statement that universal irremediable distress prevailed throughout the country. These facts applied to England; but let the House recollect, that if any part of England, Scotland, or Ireland should be proved not to have been subject to the depression spoken of, the statement of the hon. baronet must fall to the ground. Now, with regard to Ireland, an hon. gentleman said, that great distress prevailed in the city of Dublin. He was ready to admit that distress did exist in the Liberties of that city, but as long as he had been acquainted with Ireland he never knew a period when the manufacturers in that irreclaimable part of Dublin were not in distress,—so much so, that scarcely a year passed without appeals being made on their behalf to the charity of the public. No doubt distress prevailed in Ireland, and God grant that some measure might be devised to remedy it; but was there any proof before the House, that the agricultural interests of Ireland were suffering under universal distress and depression? Could it be said that universal distress existed amongst the agriculturists of Scotland? He doubted that such was the fact, and before the House asserted it, he would call upon it to employ due precaution in forming its opinion. He would maintain that the Address, in answer to the Speech, gave a truer description of the state of the country than the amendment proposed by the hon. baronet. It was perfectly consistent, on the part of his majesty's ministers, while they felt sincere sympathy for the distress which did exist, to be extremely cautious as to the adoption of rash experiments with a view to its alleviation. [hear] The distress which did exist had originated in causes over which government had no control; and it should be borne in mind, that it was not exclusively confined to the dominions of his majesty. The agricultural interests had also experienced similar depression in America, and in other countries. In France, for instance, the distress had been in many places as severe as in any part of this country. In parts of the United States, the distress had been equally as great as with us. In Russia, at this moment, a proclamation had been issued for lowering the rate of interest, with a view to remedy the agricultural distress prevailing there; therefore the causes
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whatever they might be, which had operated to produce this distress were not confined to this country. Great weight was certainly due to the effects produced by unfavourable seasons. He believed that the expense incurred by the agricultural interest, both in cultivating the soil, and collecting the harvest, had never been so great as in the last two years, owing to the extreme wetness of the seasons. That was sufficient to account in some degree for the depression experienced by the agricultural interest; and, besides, he did not think that due weight had been assigned to the effect of the importations from Ireland. That was a cause beyond remedy or control. Ireland was fairly entitled to a free access to the markets of this country, and no man would be mad enough to propose to restrict the importations from that country. He held in his hand an account of the amount of importations from Ireland into the port of Liverpool during the last year. During that period there had been imported into Liverpool from Ireland, forty-nine thousand oxen, thirteen thousand calves, eighteen thousand pigs, one hundred and eleven thousand sheep, one thousand three hundred lambs; and the total value of agricultural produce thus imported amounted to 1,270,000 l. exclusive of corn. [hear] It was impossible to deny that such immense importations from Ireland had the effect of depressing the agricultural interests of this country. The same argument applied to Scotland. The Crown, he therefore conceived, was quite justified in entreating the House to use extreme caution before it should attempt to remedy, by legislative interference, the distress that existed. The ministers had been taunted as if they were influenced by a species of false pride, as if they were so determined to adhere to declarations formerly made respecting the currency, as blindly to close their eyes to the real distresses of the country. It was said, that they were afraid to expose themselves to the charge of inconsistency, and this followed close upon the charge which had been made against them from the same quarter last session, when they were accused of departing from those principles to which they stood pledged, in bringing forward a measure which they had uniformly opposed. It was then said, that they were actuated by a corrupt desire to maintain themselves in office,

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and the charge now was, that they were so wilfully and perversely determined to adhere to the present currency system, that they would hear of no change in it whatever. Now he would say upon this occasion, as he did when assailed by a contrary charge last session, that he was ready to abandon his opinions respecting the currency, to which he was supposed to be so unalterably pledged, if he could bring himself to believe that his so doing would be productive of any real and permanent benefit to the interests of the country. [hear] It was no imputation on the part of a public man to recede from opinions which he had maintained, when he found others better adapted to the circumstances of the country. From his experience of public life, he was never more convinced of any thing than of the arrogance of binding one's-self to any set of opinions respecting matters of this nature. [hear] To him it appeared much better to act upon the principle avowed by the hon. baronet who had proposed the amendment, and to look at every measure solely in reference to its merits, uninfluenced by the ties of any party, or by any preconceived opinions on the subject. He was ready to adopt that principle; he should be always ready to abandon opinions when proved to be wrong: and, on the contrary he should always support those which he conceived to be right. As he said before, he could not see any change of opinions on the part of a public-man in receding from those which he had hitherto maintained when the interests of the country called upon him to do so. Now, with regard to the currency, after the best deliberation which his majesty's ministers could give to the subject, they were determined to adhere to the present system, being convinced that if any error had been committed in establishing that system, we should only be exposed to still greater evils than those we had suffered by again doing any thing to unsettle the currency of the country. [hear] His majesty's ministers were not indifferent to the distress in the country; they did not deny that distress existed, they were not wanting in sympathy on account of its existence, nor in a sincere desire for its alleviation; but at the same time they were determined to adhere to a cautious policy in dealing with it. He would warn the House to beware of making rash experiments. It was because his majes-
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ty's ministers believed that any rash experiment with the currency would, while it might possibly give some immediate benefit, only be productive of more permanent evils than those from which we had been relieved, that they had come to the determination of maintaining the present system, and exposing themselves to whatever obloquy might be attached to the course which they had resolved to pursue. [hear, hear]
Lord Althorpsaid, he admitted that the present administration had done more good for the country than any other government that had preceded it; but having stated that as his opinion, he, at the same time, claimed his right generally to exercise his judgment in reference to any measures which they might introduce, and to object to, or oppose, any thing emanating from them as he might think proper. He had come down to the House that evening to hear the Speech from the throne, and he could not conceal his surprise at hearing the assertion contained in it, that distress existed "in some parts of the United Kingdom." His impression was, that the distress existed throughout the country. He should feel great satisfaction in hearing that he was mistaken in that opinion; he should feel still greater if that statement of the Speech were proved to be correct. [hear] The hon. baronet's amendment stated, that the distress existed universally. His noble friend, who moved the Address, stated, in opposition to the Speech, that the distress was general; and the hon. gentleman who seconded it made a somewhat similar admission. Until the chancellor of the Exchequer rose, no contradiction was given to the statement as to the universality of the distress, and that right hon. gentleman said that it did not exist in Ireland. But the hon. member for Clare stated that there was distress in Dublin—that he knew distress existed in Leinster, Connaught, and Munster, and that he heard it had extended to Ulster. To that assertion no contradiction had been given by any hon. gentleman from. Ireland. He had, therefore, waited anxiously to hear what the right hon. gentleman opposite had to say, as he hoped he would produce some facts to induce him (Lord Althorp) not to vote, as he was conscientiously determined to do, for the amendment. But no such facts had been stated by the right hon. gentleman; and

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under these circumstances he (lord Al-thorp) though unwilling to give a vote that might have the appearance of joining those who opposed his majesty's government for carrying a measure that he (lord Althorp) strongly approved of, [cries of "no, no," from Sir Edward Knatchbull and others,] he felt it his duty to vote for the amendment.
Mr. W. Whitmore.—Though he believed the distress to be general, and whatever reluctance he might have to adopt the statement in the address on that subject, yet as he was not prepared to go the length of those who proposed the amendment, he should vote against it.
Lord Howicksaid, he conceived that the statement in the Speech and the Address undervalued the distress which he was convinced extended generally throughout the country. The facts which the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) had mentioned might be met by the statement, which he believed was the case, that many of the operations of our internal trade were carried on at a loss. But while he (lord Howick) regretted to see such a statement in the Speech, as he knew that the distress was general, he could not concur in the amendment proposed by the hon. baronet. He was anxious to wait to see what would be done or proposed by the government. He condemned the system of referring to a committee, consisting of twenty-three gentlemen of that House, the task of examining into every branch of our enormous establishments. It was in his opinion absurd, and likely to end as it had ended, in disappointment. The Address did not pledge hon. members.
Lord P. Leveson Gowersaid, he must contend that the terms of his majesty's Speech had not been treated fairly in the amendment proposed by the hon. baronet. In his opinion the terms of his majesty's Speech, as far as they had reference to Ireland, were even more logically true than the terms of the hon. baronet's amendment. He thought too that unjust advantage had been taken of the speech of his right hon. friend the chancellor of the Exchequer. His right hon. friend had not said that there was no distress in Ireland. He should like to see the man who would venture to say that there ever had been a period from the time of bishop Boulter, down to the present, in which no distress existed in Ireland. [hear] If he had understood his right hon. friend
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rightly, he had only spoken of the non-existence of distress among the agricultural classes in Ireland. It was likewise true that distress existed among the manufacturing population of the Liberties in Dublin—but when had it been otherwise since the days of lord Chesterfield? The noble member for Northamptonshire said that no gentleman from Ireland had risen to deny the statements as to distress in Ireland. He would not take upon himself to say that there was no distress in that country; but he would take upon himself to deny that it was universal. In reference to the complaint which had been made, that there was, in the royal Speech an omission of all opinion respecting the existing state of Ireland, he had only to say, that, in his opinion, there was in that royal silence more eloquence than if his majesty had entered into a lengthened discussion of the benefits which had been derived, far beyond all expectation, from the measure of last session. [cheers] To that measure the country owed this advantage, that if distress did exist in Ireland, it was distress without those moral evils and disquietudes which had too often previously attended it. [hear] Whatever might be the event of this motion, which was evidently made with the intention of unseating the government, in office or out of office it would always be to him a consolation to have lent his feeble aid to a measure which had been attended with such complete success. [hear, hear]
Mr. W. Smithsaid, it was his intention to support the original Address; though he was of opinion that the distress of the country was more general than any one would imagine from reading the words of the royal Speech which stated it to be confined to some parts of the United Kingdom. He opposed the amendment, because it found verbal fault with the Address, in order to displace an administration, for which the movers of the amendment wished to substitute another not near so advantageous to the country. [hear, hear] He could not separate this session from the last; and considering the unmeasured warmth and violence with which some gentlemen had then attacked the ministry, and the course which they were now again pursuing for the attainment of the same object, he could not help marvelling how it was, that they had not cooled themselves down a little during their residence in the country,

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With respect to the distress in Ireland he had only one word to say. When the measure of Catholic relief, of which he had always been a sincere supporter, was under discussion, it was repeatedly asked "Will it be a panacea for all her evils?" He had never supposed that generations and ages of bad government, and all the evils which they had necessarily produced, could be cured by it instantly, or even in a single year. The advantage of that measure was, that with all the distress of England pressing upon us, we had not the disquiet and discontent of Ireland to contend with. [hear] It was his intention on the present occasion to support the ministry. If giving this vote in their favour prevented him from giving his vote in support of any one measure of reform or retrenchment, he would rather cut off his hand than give it; but hoping to vote for reduction to the utmost in the course of the present session, he still felt himself at liberty to vote in favour of ministers against a proposition which made a covert and not a direct attack upon their conduct.
Mr. Mildmaysupported the Address, because he considered the amendment a mere quibble upon words. [hear] One of his reasons for supporting the Address was, that he could not consent to abandon a ministry which had done so much for Ireland; [hear] and one of his reasons for opposing the amendment was, that he should be sorry to give a vote in favour of that party which endeavoured to throw a clog around them when they were on their march to improvement. [hear] He was content with the admission of ministers that there was great distress in the country; for after making that admission, they would be guilty of a gross abandonment of their duty if they did not exert every means in their power to remove it.
Mr. Duncombesaid, it was his intention to support the amendment, because it painted the distress of the country correctly, which the Address did not. The right hon. Secretary for the Home Department had called upon the House not to support the amendment, until it had further evidence of the distress which pervaded all classes. He was at a loss to conceive what evidence the right hon. gentleman would have, if he were not content with that which he had got already. He had the evidence of the noble lord who moved the Address,
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and of the hon. member for the city of London who seconded it—he had the evidence of two other members for the city of London— he had the evidence of his right hon. friend, the member for Liverpool— he had the evidence of the hon. and learned member for Clare-—in short, he had the evidence of every man in the House, whose opinion on such a subject was worth having —and yet the right hon. gentleman, with all that evidence, hoped that the House would not adopt the amendment of his hon. friend the member for Kent, without receiving still more evidence. [hear] If the right hon. gentleman really required such evidence, he had it in the various meetings which had taken place in different parts of the country—in the addresses which had been sent up from various public bodies to the head of the government; and in the petitions which had been agreed to in every large town in the kingdom, and which would soon be presented to the consideration of the House. It appeared to him, that look into whatever quarter of the country a man might, he could not fail to find sufficient evidence of the severe distress which pervaded it from one end of it to another. [hear] Perhaps the eyes of the right hon. gentleman were now at length opened,—for he really was of opinion, that before that night the government was not impressed with any idea of the extent of the prevailing distress. He therefore thought, that as such was the case, it should lose no time in entering into an immediate investigation of the state of the country. With regard to the imputations which had been cast on his motives, and on the motives of those with whom he acted, he would merely observe, that he scorned them, and that he would on all occasions treat them with the contempt which they merited. [hear] He had no other motive in the course which he was then pursuing than to discharge his duty to the best of his poor ability to his distressed and afflicted countrymen. In conclusion, he must express a hope that a system of the most rigorous economy would be adopted by ministers, and that, instead of merely reducing the salaries of subordinate clerks, they would begin with the reduction of their own incomes.
Mr. Ricesaid, if he could bring himself to believe that upon the issue of this debate the continuance of the present ministers in office was to depend, so grateful was he to them for the great benefit which

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they had conferred upon Ireland by acceding to the measure of last session, that he would gladly give them all the assistance within his feeble power. But that was not the issue which the House had to try. The House had simply to decide whether the distress of the country was confined to some particular parts of it, or whether it was general throughout the country. If there were any doubt upon the point,—and he was afraid that there was not,—he should support the latter opinion, because it would at any rate show the people that their representatives were inclined to look upon their sufferings with an eye of sympathy. Under his present impressions he was inclined to support the amendment: but if any country members would get up and state to the House that their constituents were not distressed, he would immediately give his vote in favour of the original Address. He did not look upon this question as one which involved a mere quibble about words—he considered it as a question of far deeper importance. His hon. friend had intimated that he could not agree to this amendment, because it came from, and was supported by, a party with whom he was not in the habit of acting. With all deference to his hon. friend, that was a principle upon which he, as a public man, could never consent to act. Upon political subjects he generally differed from the hon. baronet who had moved the amendment, but he should indeed be ashamed of himself if that general difference of opinion should lead him to dissent from any useful and salutary proposition which the hon. baronet might bring forward. He should regret that his vote on this occasion was mistaken; he gave it to the influence of truth, in his comparative examination of two propositions which were before him. He believed, indeed, that the distress, although pressing hard upon parts of Ireland, was less there than it was found, generally speaking, in England. Enough was, however, apparent in the state of both countries to call for sympathy, and he felt himself, therefore, under the necessity of voting for that declaratory resolution which was more expressive of the degree of distress he believed to exist in the community.
Lord Tullamoresaid, he was satisfied, from personal observation and documentary evidence, that the representations regarding distress were exaggerated; he alluded
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particularly to the districts round Liverpool and Manchester; and he referred to an accurate table with which he had been furnished, shewing that between 1825 and 1828, both inclusive, the manufacture of cotton goods had increased from fifty-seven millions of yards to ninety-eight millions of yards. The increase had been in the following ratio:—

1825

57,000,000 of yards

1826

70,000,000

1827

96,000,000

1828

98,000,000

He believed that several other branches of manufacture were also in a much more flourishing condition than had been represented.
Mr. R. Palmersaid, his knowledge of the existence of very general distress compelled him with great regret to vote for the amendment.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald.—If the support of the Address could imply that any inquiry into the existing state of distress were denied, or even not likely to be inquired into, by the government or that House, he would evince a readiness to entertain the Amendment; but when he thought the contrary was the fact, he could not bring himself to the same conclusion as his hon. friends near him. Respecting the omission of Ireland in the Address, he wished to give a hint to the hon. member for Clare, an old debater in public life elsewhere, though young in that House; and it was to caution him against affording his prompt assistance to the hon. members for whom he had this night tendered his vote. There was certainly great distress in Ireland, but nothing equal to the extent in which it pervaded England. Let his hon. friend therefore take care how he gave his support to men, under the notion that he was serving Ireland, who might hereafter turn round and object to the importation of Irish produce, which ought to have as free an admission into the English market as that of Scotland, or of the counties of England, and propose their measures of poor-laws, or others of a similar nature, for the sister kingdom.
Colonel Woodsaid, he should vote in favour of the Address, which had described the prevailing distress, but had not encouraged exaggerated estimates of it, while it left every thing open for fair and distinct consideration. He entreated the House to consider what the impression would be of sending forth to the public

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an amendment of the kind proposed, the supporters of which did not agree in any single view of what was necessary for the ultimate attainment of their own object.
Mr. Brougham.—I only rise to state in a few words my reasons for voting for the Amendment, and thereby to guard myself against misconstruction. I feel great regret, and I say it most unfeignedly, at the course I am obliged to take; and I may say with the hon. member for Northamptonshire (lord Althorp), that I never came into the House with less expectation of being driven to vote for an Amendment than this night. If I could persuade myself that the difference between the Address and the Amendment was only a matter of words and form, and not of important sense and substance, in the present state of the country I should unhesitatingly have supported the Address. I deplore extremely the expressions which ministers have thought fit to introduce into the king's Speech. Whether they were or were not aware of it at the time it was framed I know not; but I can only ask myself this question—In what sense will these words be taken by the suffering, the deeply suffering, people of this empire! [hear] Is it possible that they can put more than one meaning upon them; and what is that meaning? That the distress is admitted by the government to a certain degree; but that, after all, it amounts to very little; for the king is made to say only that he regrets the distress prevailing among-the agricultural and manufacturing classes in some parts of the country. In plain common sense, this is the meaning of those words; there may be distress, but there is not much of it. I, for one, cannot bring myself to sanction such a statement by my vote; and when, by a debate in this House, the question has arisen and it is put to me, "will you vote for that which is a misrepresentation, or will you support that which comes much nearer the truth," I cannot hesitate, though my vote is wrung from me most reluctantly. The intention with which this Amendment has been brought forward, has been distinctly disavowed by the hon. baronet, the member for Kent; but whatever might be his intention, or the intention of those who have supported him, even if I thought that its tendency was to displace the present government, I protest that at all events I would vote against it. [hear, hear] I should vote against the Amendment equally
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if I could believe that it tended in the slightest degree to pledge me to a single step towards that line of policy which it is understood many of those who favour the Amendment are inclined to pursue. I mean as to rescinding our decisions on questions of commercial policy, and, above all, tampering with the currency. If I could dream that the vote I am about, so painfully to myself, to give, which is literally extorted from me, would have the slightest tendency to pledge me to either of those courses, bad as the alternative would be, I would prefer voting for the Address. I shall detain the House no longer than once more to state, that I never in my life gave a vote with greater regret than on the present occasion.
Question put, "That those words (sir E. Knatchbull's Amendment) be inserted." The House divided: the numbers were, Ayes 105; Noes 158: Majority against the Amendment 53.

List of the Minority.

Althorp, viscount

Howard, H.

Attwood, W.

Harvey, D. W.

Blandford, marquis of

Heathcote, sir W.

Beaumont, T. W.

Huskisson, rt. hon. W.

Baring, sir T.

Inglis, sir R. H.

Brownlow, C.

Knatchbull, sir E.

Bastard, E. P.

Kemp, T. R.

Burdett, sir F.

King, hon. gen.

Bankes, H.

Lamb, hon. G.

Bankes, W.

Lushington, Dr.

Bernal, R.

Labouchere, H.

Bright, H.

Lester, B.

Bentinck, lord G.

Langston, J. H.

Brougham, H.

Marjoribanks, S.

Baring, F.

Macdonald, sir J.

Cripps, J.

Morpeth, viscount

Calvert, N.

Mundy, F.

Calvert, C.

Mackintosh, rt. hn. sir J.

Cavendish, W.

Marshall, J.

Clinton, F.

Maberly, J.

Canning, rt. hn. sir S.

Normanby, viscount

Carter, J. Bonham

Norton, G.

Dawkins, H.

Osborne, lord F. W.

Duncombe, hon. W.

O'Connell, D.

Duncombe, T.

Ord, W.

Davenport, E.

Palmer, R.

Dick, Q.

Pallmer, C. N.

Denison, J. E.

Palmer, F.

Encombe, viscount

Palmerston, viscount

Fergusson, R. C.

Phillimore, Dr.

Fazakerley, J. N.

Peachy, general

Fyler, T. B.

Protheroe, E.

Fane, J.

Russell, lord J.

Grant, rt. hon. C.

Rice, S.

Grant, R.

Robarts, A. W.

Gascoyne, R. general

Rickford, W.

Gordon, K.

Robinson, G.

Guest, J. J.

Sefton, earl of

Graham, sir J. G. C.

Scott, hon. W.

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Smith, S.

Wodehouse, E.

Smith, A.

Warrender, sir G.

Smith, hon. R.

Wall, C. B.

Stanley, hon. E. G.

Wyvill, M.

Seabright, sir J.

Wood, ald.

Sadler, M. T.

Wood, C.

Trant, W. H.

Wetherell, sir C.

Thomson, C. P.

Wells, J.

Trevor, hon. R.

Westenra, hon. R.

Tynte, C. K. K.

Whitbread, W. H.

Tennyson, C.

Western, C. C.

Uxbridge, earl of

Wilson, sir R. T.

Vivian, sir R. R.

Waithman, ald.

The main question was then put and agreed to, and the following Committee appointed "to draw up an Address to be presented to his Majesty upon the said Resolution:"—The Earl of Darlington, Mr. Ward, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Secretary Peel, Mr. Courtenay, Lord Leveson Gower, Sir George Clerk, Mr. Attorney General, Mr. Solicitor General, Mr. Dawson, Mr. Planta, Sir Alexander Grant, or any five of them.

The ADDRESS upon the Lords Commissioners Speech.
The following is an official copy of the Address referred to in page 7.
Die Jovis, 4° Februarii 1830.
Most Gracious Sovereign;
WE, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal Subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to approach Your Majesty, to return to Your Majesty our most humble Thanks for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has directed the Lords Commissioners to deliver to both Houses of Parliament.
WE beg leave to express to Your Majesty our grateful Acknowledgment, of the Communication, that Your Majesty has received from all Foreign Powers the strongest Assurances of their Desire to maintain and cultivate the most friendly Relations with this Country.
WE assure Your Majesty that we participate in the Satisfaction with which Your Majesty has seen that the War between Russia and the Ottoman Porte has been brought to a Conclusion.
WE offer our humble Thanks to Your
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Majesty for Your unremitted Efforts to accomplish the main Objects of the Treaty of the 6th of July 1827.
WE humbly assure Your Majesty of the sincere Satisfaction with which we have learned that Your Majesty, having recently concerted with Your Allies Measures for the Pacification and final Settlement of Greece, trust that You shall be enabled, at an early Period, to communicate to Your Parliament the particulars of this Arrangement, with such Information as may explain the Course which Your Majesty has pursued thoughout the Progress of these important Transactions.
WE cannot but express our Concern that Your Majesty is unable to announce the Prospect of a Reconciliation between the Princes of the House of Braganza.
WE thank Your Majesty for the Communication, that You have not yet deemed it expedient to re-establish, upon their ancient Footing, Your Majesty's Diplomatic Relations with the Kingdom of Portugal; and to express our grateful Sense of the Assurance, that the numerous Embarrassments arising from the continued Interruption of those Relations increase Your Majesty's Desire to effect the termination of so serious an Evil.
WE offer to Your Majesty our humble Thanks for having acquainted us, that Your Majesty's Attention has been of late earnestly directed to the various important Considerations connected with Improvements in the general Administration of the Law; and for the Directions which Your Majesty has been graciously pleased to give, that measures shall be submitted to the Deliberation of Parliament, of which some are calculated, in the Opinion of Your Majesty, to facilitate and expedite the Course of Justice in different Parts of the United Kingdom, and others appear to be necessary Preliminaries to a Revision of the Practice and Proceedings of the Superior Courts.
WE assure Your Majesty that we are impressed with a due Sense of the Confi-

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dence Your Majesty justly reposes in us, that we will give our best Attention and Assistance to Subjects of such deep and lasting Concern to the Well-being of Your Majesty's People.
WE desire to express the Satisfaction with which we have received the Information which Your Majesty has commanded to be given to us, that the Export in the last Year of British Produce and Manufactures has exceeded that of any former Year; and to assure Your Majesty that we deeply lament that, notwithstanding this Indication of active Commerce, Distress should prevail among the Agricultural and Manufacturing Classes of some Parts of the United Kingdom.
WE assure Your Majesty of our sincere Belief that it would be highly gratifying to the paternal Feelings of Your Majesty to be enabled to propose for the Consideration of Parliament, Measures calculated to remove the Difficulties of any portion of Your Subjects, and at the same time compatible with the general and permanent Interests of Your People.
WE beg leave to offer to Your Majesty our humble Thanks for the deep Solicitude Your Majesty feels for those Interests, and to express our Conviction of the Necessity with which Your Majesty is impressed of acting with extreme Caution in reference to this important Subject.
WE assure Your Majesty that we shall concur with Your Majesty in assigning its due Weight to the Effect of unfavourable Seasons, and the Operation of other Causes which are beyond the Reach of Legislative Control or Remedy.
WE offer the Assurance of our Gratitude for the Conviction Your Majesty is graciously pleased to express, that no Pressure of temporary Difficulty will induce this House to relax the Determination it has constantly manifested to maintain Public Credit inviolate, and thus to uphold the high Character and the permanent Welfare of the Country.
On Monday following was presented His Majesty's most gracious Answer:—
My Lords; I thank you for your loyal and dutiful Address.—I rely with just Confidence on your zealous Co-operation in all Measures calculated to improve the Condition of My Subjects, and to maintain the Honour and high Character of the Country.