Commons Sitting of 21 December 1830

MINUTES.
Bills. The Judgment and Execution Bill was read a third time and passed.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. KENNKDY, an account of the Emoluments of the Office of Keeper of the Signet in Scotland, for the last ten years, as well as of their application:—On the Motion of Mr. HUMB, Copies of the Patents granting the Office of Keeper of the Signet and Keeper of the Signet in Scotland; a Copy of the original Patent by which Mr. Sullivan had been appointed Provost Marshal of the Island of Jamaica:- On the Motion of Mr. WILKS, an account of the number of Houses in each City and Borough in England now returning Members to Parliament; also, an account of the number of Houses in each City and Borough not returning Members, where the population exceeds 10,000; also, an account of the Return of the number of Houses in each County of England, Scotland, and Wales, distinguishing the rates of assessment on each:—On the Motion of Lord G. BENTINCK, the number of Suits entered in the Courts of Requests of Middlesex and Surrey, in the years 1828 and 1829, for one pound, and for more than one pound, and the number of cases in these in which imprisonment had been awarded and executed, together with a table of

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the fees:—On the Motion of Sir J. GRAHAM, the Salaries and Emoluments received by persons in the Foreign Department of the General Post-office in London from 1821 to 1823:—On the Motion of Colonel SIBTHORP, the; number of Auction Licenses granted fromthe5th January, 1819, to the 5th January, 1831, with the amount of Duty paid upon them: —On the Motion of Mr. ATTWOOD, the number of Persons committed to the different Bride-wells in England and Wales on summary process, during each of the last sixteen years; account of the number of Bank Notes in circulation on the 25th of May, August, and November, 1850, distinguishing the Dills and Notes of Five Pounds from the rest; the Dank Post Hills and Notes ' issued by the Bank of England, made up from the Weekly Return furnished to the Stamp Office, according to the provisions of the Act of Parliament; the quantity of Gold, in pounds weight, carried into the Mint in 1818 and 18?9; the quantity of Coin made there from; the names of those for whom and at whose expense it had been coined; together with the amount of money paid on account of the assaying, the loss, and the coinage: —On the Motion of Mr. PUSEY, account, regularly drawn up, of the Public Expenditure in the years 1827, 1828, 1829, and 1830, together with the Ways and Means for meeting the same.
Petitions presented. By Mr. GREENE, from Stockport, against the Truck-System. By Mr. HUME, from Bristol and its vicinity, for an effectual Reform in the inferior Courts of Law throughout the Kingdom; for Parliamentary Reform, from the Royal Durgh of Montrose. from persons employed in the Kirkaldy works in the County of Fife; from the Merchants-house of Glasgow; from the Inhabitants of **Auchtermuchty; and from the Incorporated Trades of the Royal Burgh of Banff:—By Sir J. GRAHAM, from the Incorporation of Maltmen, Leith; and from Parishes in Lanark. For the abolition of Slavery, by Mr. WILKS, from Boston, and several other places: By Mr. FOLEY, from Ashley: By Mr. CURTEIS, from Brighton, and several other places in Sussex:—By Sir J. GRAHAM, from several places in Cumberland and Scotland: —By Mr. WATSON, from Dissenters at Canterbury. By Mr. S. LUMLEY, from Mansfield, for a repeal of the Assessed Taxes. By Mr. D. BROWN K, from a Parish in Mayo, and other places, against further Grants to the Kildare-street Society. By Colonel O'GRADY, from the Tailors of Limerick, for a Repeal of the Union. For a Repeal of the Duty on Sea-borne Coal, by Colonel TALBOT, from Swansea:—By Sir J. GRAHAM, from the Ship-owners of Work-ington:—By Mr. WATSON, from Canterbury. By Mr. BRISCOE, from the Inhabitants of Lambeth, against the mode of appointing and paying the New Police. By Mr. DICK, from the Rev. Sir Harcourt Lees, against the repeal of the Oath of Abjuration. For the more easy recovery of Small Debts, by Sir J. GRAHAM, from Cockermouth.

RYE ELECTION.
Mr. Cradockpresented a petition from the inhabitants of the town of Rye, entreating the attention of the House to the conduct of their returning officer. The petitioners stated, that he had acted, at the late election, contrary to a recent decision of a Committee of that House; and he was of opinion that subordinate officers, who were thus guilty of a dereliction of their duty, deserved to be visited with severe punishment.
The Speakerobserved, that if this were an election petition, it could not be received, as the time had gone by. The hon. Member must be aware, that in the last Session of the last Parliament, certain parties presented a petition against the then return, involving the right of
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election, on which a Committee of that House had decided; and, according to that decision, persons were placed upon the poll which had the effect of changing the appropriation of the seat. By the law of the land, that decision was to be sent down to the borough, and the voters had a right to take six months to appeal against the report so made by the Committee. They had appealed; but until the six months had expired, that appeal could not. be considered. In the interim that Parliament was dissolved. The appeal was heard, and they knew the result. A new election had, however, taken place at Rye; and some parties who were dissatisfied had petitioned against it; but that second petition had not been yet heard. He now asked, whether the present petition complained that the returning- officer did not admit those votes on which a Committee had formerly decided? whether this petition was founded on the same circumstances as were contained in the petition against the return? If the hon. Member answered in the affirmative, the House would require no farther proof that this was an election petition, and could not be received.
Mr. Cradocksaid, he had not seen the petition to which the Speaker adverted.
The Speakersaid, the duty of a Committee appointed under the Act of Parliament was not only to try the right of a person elected to his seat, but also the conduct of the returning officer. He then read an extract from the petition already presented, from which it appeared, that the conduct of the returning officer was complained of.
Petition withdrawn.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—MIDDLE-SEX PETITION.
Mr. Humepresented a Petition from the county of Middlesex, praying for Retrenchment and Economy, for a general Reform, and for the Vote by Ballot. The petitioners also prayed for a reform in the Poor-laws, and in the present mode of collecting Tithes; but they stated, that they did not expect that any effectual remedy would be applied to the evils of the country, unless a thorough reform in Parliament should be accomplished, and the right of election given to every individual paying rates and taxes. But they conceived that no extension of the elective franchise would be beneficial, unless the mode of voting by ballot should

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be adopted. In these opinions the hon. Member fully concurred; as well as in another resolution which the meeting from which the petition proceeded came to; namely, that it was impolitic to make any addition to the Army; and that the abolition of the Corn-laws, and reduction in the expenditure, were more likely than military force to appease the general discontent of the country. He thought that one of the greatest mistakes the present Ministry could have fallen into, was to increase the Army. The Army, instead of being increased, ought to be reduced by 30,000 or 40,000 men.
Sir G. Warrenderconcurred in the prayer of the petition as far as regarded retrenchment and economy, and if the Government only persevered in measures of economy, they would gain the support of the country. He had the fullest confidence that they would redeem the pledges they had given on that point; and he said that, because he deprecated the advice which had lately been given them from the other (the Opposition) side of the House. He had observed symptoms in that House of late, which made him think that, at no distant period, Ministers would be obliged to appeal to the opinion of the people. But they had only to persevere in measures of economy to secure the sympathy of the loyal but distressed inhabitants of the country. He did not concur in the opinion expressed by the petitioners, that it was impolitic to add to the numbers of the army. The first duty of every Government was, to put down sedition and uphold the laws, and he, for one, should always be ready to vote any amount of military force necessary for that purpose. To reform he had always hitherto been opposed, and unless he heard some better reasons adduced in its favour, his opinion would remain unchanged. It was curious to observe the resemblance between former periods of our history and the present period. The overthrow of the Administration of Sir Robert Walpole in 1742, was the result of the first vote of a Parliament which had just come from the people, and since that time he knew of no similar event till the present Session of Parliament. In 1742, as at present, there was a cry for reform, and Lord Percival, who was then member for Westminster, thus described the public proceedings:— "Meanwhile a prodigious ferment appeared
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throughout the nation; and the popular clamours for reform were no less violent than discordant. Some were for triennial Parliaments, which all who did not delight in riot, or in the prospect of corruption, thought both dangerous and dubious; some were for annual Parliaments, some for a reduction of the Civil List, which others thought unjust to take away, having been legally given; some for abolishing all employments; others for allowing a few; some for making the Army independent; others for no regular troops at all." He did not believe that the feeling in favour of reform was so universal as some hon. Members would have the House to suppose; and when the petition from the city of Edinburgh, in favour of reform, should be presented to the House, he would take that opportunity of showing, that the majority of the people of education and property in that place, were hostile to reform. The example afforded by the late election at Liverpool was not calculated to convince him, that purity of election would be obtained by the extension of the elective franchise. Neither did he look with satisfaction at what had occurred at Preston, where a member of a family which had served the country for ages, and whose acts were mixed with past recollections, had been deprived of his seat; and that member, too, a gentleman remarkable for an early display of ability in that House, and the zealous defender of civil and religious liberty. That event had not weakened his conviction against reform, and he, for one, expected no good from a reformed Parliament.
Mr. Warburtonwas not surprised that the hon. Member, an opponent of reform, was in favour of maintaining a large standing army; because, if the people did not have reform granted them they must be governed by the bayonet. The hon. Member had said, that the late proceedings at Liver-pool had brought him to the conclusion, that the mere numbers of the voters would not secure purity of election. In that opinion he agreed with the hon. Member, and the ballot was the only security, in his opinion, against such misconduct as had been exhibited by the electors of Liverpool. With respect to the election at Preston, he was sorry that a very distinguished Gentleman, a member of his Majesty's Government, had not succeeded there. But his defeat was owing to his having answered in the

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negative to two questions which were put to him on the hustings. Those two questions were—whether he would support the vote by ballot, and the repeal of the Corn-laws; and he replied, that he could not conscientiously advance those objects. Now, whatever opinion he (Mr. Warburton) might have of the gentleman who had succeeded, he did think that the electors of Preston had done themselves signal honour, and shown great independence, by acting as they had done. With respect to the petition, he had been requested to give it his support in the House, and he did so with the greatest pleasure; and as a proof of the good feeling that pervaded the meeting, he might mention, that when his hon. friend (Sir. Hume) had stated, with regard to the Church, that he did not seek its spoliation, but only a commutation of its revenue, the sentiment was received with general applause. At this meeting the feeling as to the necessity of reform was universal, though there might be some difference of opinion on subordinate points. Reform was not a new question; for Mr. Pitt, as every body knew, was a reformer, and he was prepared to bring in a bill to buy up the rotten boroughs. Such a bill, he knew, was actually prepared, and the pleasure of Mr. Pitt taken on it, but meeting opposition, and he growing lukewarm, it was dropped.
Mr. Tennysonexpressed his surprise at hearing the opinions which fell from the right hon. Baronet respecting reform. He believed that the desire for reform pervaded all places, and he believed that a full, efficient, and complete reform must take place. That was necessary for the salvation of our institutions, and to give contentment to the people. He had of late mingled much with the people of all classes, and he was sure that such was the universal sentiment. Amongst the great majority of the well-informed classes at present, the only apprehension was, that reform would be too long delayed, and would not go far enough. That was the opinion and the apprehension of the upper classes as well as the middle classes. At the numerous public meetings which had lately taken place, not one person had proposed to make any amendment to a Resolution for Reform: and whenever the opposite question had been mooted the speaker had not been listened to. He did not believe that any person could be found to vote against reform except such persons
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as those noble Lords who could command as many votes as were possessed by the Representatives of five counties.
Mr. Guestsaid, that he could not concur in the statement made by the right hon. Baronet (Sir G. Warrender), that the people were not generally in favour of reform. In his opinion, 19-20ths of the thinking part of the community were in favour of reform, though they might not all be prepared to go the same length.
Sir R. Wilsonagreed with the petition as far as reform and economy were concerned, but he disagreed with the petition, and with the hon. member for Bridport on the subject of ballot. He had on a former occasion expressed his opinion on this subject, and he did not like to sit silent, lest the hon. Member should suppose, that his arguments might have influenced him to change his opinions. He had before referred to America, and some other States, where the ballot was in existence, and had shown that it had not answered expectations there. He had since received a letter from a person of the highest respectability, who had been informed by a merchant of America, "That America had experienced the greatest, evils from the election by ballot; there was a general impression in that country that it would be found necessary to abolish it altogether, and he expected that a measure would soon be proposed to effect it." In Virginia, which contained upwards of a million voters, a Convention had lately met to consider what changes it was necessary to make in the existing institutions, including the Legislature, and in that Convention it was proposed to adopt the ballot, but that proposition was completely rejected, on the ground that the Representative ought to know the opinions, and communicate with the persons who send him to the Senate. It was requisite that the Representative should know the opinions of those who delegated their power to him; he ought to know all their opinions, and he could not do this if they voted by ballot. He should know the feelings of the different parties among the electors. In America it was found necessary, both for the well-being of individuals, and from regard to public opinion, that the votes should be publicly known. The ballot existed too in Sweden; what was the consequence? The Diet was divided into two parties, the French and the Russians, the former being called Hats, the latter Caps.

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A struggle took place for the ascendancy, and much bribery was used, but it was soon found out, that most of the members accepted bribes from both, which led to an. arrangement, that no man should receive any thing who did not carry his ballot-ball in his hand, to signify for which party he voted. Secret voting, he believed, never would satisfy the people. He further objected to the ballot, that it did not necessarily preserve that secresy which was said to be its great merit. He knew that the question was gaining in favour with the people, owing to the example of France; but it ought to be recollected, that in France there were only 80,000 voters, and in France it was of great use in protecting the voters against the power of the government. But, as the ballot existed in France, would Members wish to have it here? Would the hon. member for Middlesex have the House of Commons vote by ballot, as the Chamber of Deputies voted? Would the hon. Member be contented that his vote should be unknown? Would he like to have to say, "Oh! I assure you I voted for that question;" instead of seeing his name in those printed lists that were now circulated? It was not a system which could be applied to that House, and was therefore plainly imperfect. It was a newfangled passion of a certain class of doctrinaires, who imagined that they had found out in the nineteenth century a remedy for all abuses. If it were introduced into that House, it would overthrow the monarchy, and to such a proceeding he would be no party. He was born under a monarchy, and so he wished the country to remain, and he should always oppose the introduction of the ballot.
Mr. Hobhousethought the arguments of the gallant General did not proceed from reason, and were not addressed to reason. It would be more useful to appeal to what had been done in America, than to what an individual said the Americans were going to do. In the United States, at the first beginning of their independence, open voting had been universally adopted ["No" from Sir R. Wilson). Afterwards, alterations were successively made in the institutions of that country, the vote by ballot was generally introduced. In the State of New York, that was not intended to be a permanent enactment; but after it had been for some time tried, when the time came to re-model the Constitution, the plan of voting by ballot was preserved,
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and had been continued to this day as most expedient and useful, and was at present employed at all kinds of elections. France, to which the gallant General had also referred—France, that "bad example," as it had been called, would not give much support to his argument. The paucity of the number of votes, to which the gallant General had referred, was the very fact which made that example so very precious. If the government had been unable, with 14,000 places under the Crown—with electors only amounting to 78,000—to intimidate the electors; if 60,000 of those electors, from possessing places, or from that still more influential cause the expectation of possession, might have been under the control of the Crown; if, under such circumstances, France had been able to achieve its freedom, her disposition to employ the ballot, and the disposition of other nations to adopt it, must have been strengthened by that glorious result which had given freedom and strength, not only to France, but to all Europe. Supposing that France had had no ballot, could the electors have dared to vote as they did? It was one of the charges against the unfortunate men who were now put upon their trial in Paris, that they had violated the secresy of the ballot, and there could be no doubt that they had. Franco, however, by that simple contrivance, the ballot had secured her own freedom. In England there were more electors than in France, and more of them were liable to be influenced than of the 80,000. The 80,000 electors in France possessed at least one quality which was not possessed by all the electors of England—they were all men of independent property. In this country only few of the electors, comparatively were independent in that sense; they were not persons of property, and for such voters there was no other protection or security but the vote by ballot. If it were not secret, as the hon. and gallant General contended, then it was not the ballot, but some imperfect imitation of it, for secresy was essential to the ballot. He knew that at the India-house the ballot was not secret; the voters made a merit of telling how they voted. To that he had no objection. If people liked to tell their votes he would allow them to. do so; but if they did not like to tell how they voted, then he would have them protected, and the ballot would protect them. The gallant

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General asked, if the hon. member for Middlesex would like the ballot applied to the House of Commons—if he desired secret voting for the Members of that House? He would answer, certainly not. There was a wide distinction between the cases which the gallant General could not possibly overlook. The House of Commons, representing the people, appealed to public opinion; it depended on that, and therefore the votes of its Members should be given openly. They ought to be subject to the influence of public opinion, but the voters ought not to be subject to undue influence; and to guard against that the ballot was useful. This was not his argument, at least he did not state it for the first time—he drew it from the works of that profound philosopher, whose writings displayed more acumen, he believed, than those of any other author of the day—he meant the celebrated historian of India, Mr. Mill. The arguments of the gallant General showed, that he was not. yet acquainted with the elements of the question. He complained of the ballot system encouraging guile and baseness. Did not the present system also beget perfidy and baseness? Was there nothing in it to make men ashamed? Was there no room in it for the exercise of tyranny? Was there no guile—no perfidy—no baseness, in a man going to the hustings, and there telling, and there acting, if he might say so, a lie, by giving a vote to a man whom he did not wish to vote for—by giving his vote against his conscience, and what he thought was for the public good? Was there in that no perfidy to the voter himself and his country? There was much perfidy—much guile; and that was the cause of the corruption which disgraced the House of Commons, and which had reduced the country to that state, out of which the new Government was called upon to extricate it. As to what the right hon. Baronet had said last evening about the demands of the people, he did not believe that in those demands there would be any excess. There might be a difference as to terms; but there was now a plain necessity to do what the people wished. It was not possible to stop short, and he believed that they would not be contented with anything short of the ballot. He would not then say whether they were correct or not in forming those wishes, but it would not be denied, that the opinion in favour of the ballot was making great progress. In
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fact, it had made more progress in public acceptation, within a comparatively brief period, than had ever been gained before in the same space of time by a mere theoretical opinion. The reason of this was, its extreme simplicity: it was like the egg of Columbus, which could not be made to stand until the principle was discovered, but was so easy of accomplishment when attempted, that the elucidation excited surprise that such a mystery had so long evaded conjecture. If a better protection to the elector could be substituted, he was quite ready to abandon the theory; but he did not believe that possible, and he knew that under our present circumstances, no better protection for the electors than the ballot could be found. He wondered the gallant General, who must know something of popular elections, had not found out what a protection it would be for voters. He himself knew something of popular elections; when he formerly had gone to canvass the electors of Westminster for the hon. Baronet of whom he was then the colleague, he had more than once been met with the question, "Do you want me to ruin my family? I would willingly vote for the Baronet—I am friendly to reform; but I dare not vole as I wish." More than once had he seen people shed tears. It was not only against the rich that the ballot would be useful, but neighbours and employers exercised the power which an election gave them, to compel the people to vote as they liked. That consideration alone would make him vote for the ballot, and he would venture to say, that ere long the gallant General would be as sensible as he was of those evils, and as ready as be was to support reform by the ballot. The obsolete distinctions of Whig and Tory had now been superseded by those of reformers and anti-reformers; a few borough-mongers constituted the latter, and the former consisted of the great body of the nation. Parties had completely changed, for when the Walpole Administration was broken up, as had been mentioned by the hon. Baronet, the Tories were reformers. Now the anti-reformers were all to be found in their ranks, though even all those who still called themselves Tories, were not anti-reformers. The question of reform, however, was now in the hands of Ministers, and there he wished it left, not calling on the Government to explain its plan, or embarrassing it by opposition.

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Let the Ministers only speak out fairly, and if the country did not agree with their opinions, they would soon hear of the disagreement in such a manner as honest Ministers should hear. The country expected relief; and expected it from the hands of the Ministers. Reform must be given; the Ministers were pledged to reform. The general opinion of the country was in favour of reform; and if the Ministers acted on that principle, they would be supported by every intelligent man in the country. As long as their opponents—the members of the late Government—continued to be opposed to reform, he was sure that every man in the country would exert himself to keep them out of place; for the country would look on their return to office as one of the greatest curses which could befall it. No man, nor set of men, could now carry on the Government by any middle course. The country could not any longer be governed by a corrupt Parliament; and if the Parliament were not reformed, it could not be governed at all. The people would no longer bear the present state of the representation. If the right hon. Gentlemen below him [Mr. Hobhouse sat on the Opposition side of the House] believed that they could govern the country by any new system—if they did show any disposition to try again their corrupt system, they might make some sacrifices —but they would find that they could not succeed, and that it was too late for their plan. They must cither have recourse to pure despotism, or they must go with the people. There was no middle course. They might try to have recourse to their old system; but they would never afterwards repeat the lesson, as they would find that the people would not listen to their voice. He agreed with the petition as far as it demanded an effectual reform, and the institution by ballot, and gave it his cordial support, though there were some minor points on which there might be a difference of opinion.
Mr. D. W. Harveydeclared, that when he was convinced that the feelings of the great body of the people were as much in favour of ballot as they were in favour of reform, he, for one, should never oppose it by his vote. When it could be shown to him that the respectable body he represented were friendly to the ballot, he would yield his individual opinion to the general opinion. He regretted,
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however, to find that other Gentlemen, whose motives he respected, and whose zeal he honoured, should find in the ballot a remedy for all things, and a reform no remedy at all. This was, he thought, an ungenerous sentiment, and it was telling the people—for what was spoken in that House got abroad—it was telling the people, that it was of little importance in the opinion of those Gentlemen that Ministers meant to propose reform; and it was decoying the public mind from a due and calm consideration of that reform which Ministers meant to propose. The advocates of the ballot seemed to him to fall into error. They had alluded to Liverpool; but did they suppose that after the reform, the election of Liverpool would be in the hands of the same class of persons as at present? Would it be so equally balanced by parties, that a little knot of ten or fifteen voters should at the end turn the scale? Would it be so balanced that a corrupt body should make up a tally in the street, and that an attorney and an elector should say, "I can bring them up, but I must name my own price." In all plans of reform that he had heard of, the elections would not be left in such hands. He relied much on the circumstance, that the character of the electors would be improved by any plan of reform, and though he would not vote for the extinction of any one elector, he trusted that no person in possession of property would be excluded from voting, whenever a reform should take place. Was it to be supposed, that when all the respectable and opulent inhabitants of Liverpool, containing 140,000 people, had a share in the representation, that such disgraceful scenes would occur as at the late election? If it were true that the Americans were not about to abolish the ballot, that was no reason why we should adopt it. He was surprised at the existence of ballot in a republic, and he thought that with a ballot a republic was incomplete. In a republic the basis of its institutions was public purity, in it patriotism was virtue, and with both these the principle of secret voting was inconsistent. A Reform would extinguish the influence which now corrupted the elections. A reform would sweep away those places to obtain which electors were corrupted. Great and little men, landlords and tenants, masters and servants, employers and tradesmen, would have but one interest—

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that of good government; and secresy would not be necessary to induce them all to follow one interest. He would not, however, go further into the subject, though he must say, he did not consider the arguments of that celebrated Essay, by Mr. Mill, to be impregnable; and he should be ready when the question was discussed, to explain his views. If Gentlemen thought Reform incomplete without ballot, they would be better able to obtain the ballot after the Parliament was reformed according to the plan of Ministers, than while it was in its present state. If after their plan of Reform were brought forward, the public still found themselves under the influence of terror, surely that reformed Parliament would listen to the public voice more readily than when there was no hope of Reform.
Mr. Calcraftonly rose to express his astonishment at the attack which the hon. member for Westminster had made on the government of the Duke of Wellington, and those who had formed part of the Administration of the Duke of Wellington. The hon. Member had spoken of that Government, as if it had conducted itself only by the principles of corruption, and as if he could not heap upon it too many disgraceful epithets. The hon. Member had stated, that the Duke of Wellington had so governed the country, that if his Administration were again to be placed in office, he must have recourse to a true despotism, because he could not govern by the old means of corruption. The Government of the Duke of Wellington was at first very popular, and it deserved to be so. That Government had repealed the Test and Corporation Acts; it had emancipated the Catholics; it had reduced taxation; and it had carried the principles of economy to a greater extent than he had ever before witnessed. Great credit was due to the Duke of Wellington for his management of the national affairs. He had never before heard, that of all the measures of the Duke of Wellington's Administration, there was not one that was not carried by corruption. He would only beg his hon. friend, if he again made such accusations, not to generalise so much, but to enter into particulars, to point out individuals, and bring forward proofs of his assertions. He wished to ask the hon. member for the county of Middlesex one question: Was it true, as had been stated, that when Mr. Byng, who had represented the
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county of Middlesex for twenty-five years, with great credit to himself and he believed great advantage to the country—he wished to ask his hon. friend if it were true, that Mr. Byng was so violently opposed, because he expressed an opinion unfavourable to the ballot, that he was not listened to when he attempted to address the meeting? If that were so, he would only say, it was very harsh treatment for an old public servant.
Sir John Newportwas sorry to hear his right hon. friend give the Duke of Wellington credit for actions for which none was due. Did the Duke of Wellington begin the repeal of the Test Act? Certainly not; he did not agree to it till he was forced. He admitted, that the Administration of the Duke of Wellington was popular at the outset, but his Administration had ceased to be popular. Why was that? Because the Duke of Wellington had resisted the wishes of the people for Reform. He had ceased to be popular because he had declared that he would resist their wishes. If the present Ministers should resist those wishes,—if they did not gratify those wishes—they would show themselves unfit for the situation they held. The great military achievements of the Duke of Wellington made the people expect much from his civil government, but they were disappointed. His military glory cast a hope over his civil government, which had never been realized. His civil government never deserved any credit, and he believed no military man ever would make a good civil governor.
Mr. Calcraftexplained, that he had been one of those who had forced the repeal of the Test Act on the Government; but though they had carried the question in that House, they had no hope of carrying it through the other House. That was done by the Duke of Wellington, and therefore he attributed the carrying of it to him.
Mr. Westernthought the most important point in the petition had not been adverted to. It began by alluding to the very great distress in which the country was now plunged. In his opinion, that was the subject which ought most to attract the attention of the House. The state of the country, however, having been already sufficiently discussed, he should make it his endeavour to point out some of the causes which had brought it into

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its present condition. Among these, none had acted more powerfully than the ruinous changes that, within the last ten or twelve years had been made in the currency-He said, "ruinous," because that was the epithet made use of by the petitioners as descriptive of the change to which he alluded, and it certainly was the most appropriate that could have been selected. That these changes would induce the ultimate ruin of the country, he had no doubt. They had already occasioned the ruin of many thousands of the industrious and labouring classes of the people, and a rapid progress was making towards the ultimate ruin of all. The baneful influence of changes in the currency was not confined to one class or to one interest— they affected alike the agriculturist and the manufacturer—the ship-owner and the merchant—the tradesman and the mechanic:—in short, from those who employ the greatest capital, down to the lowest and poorest labourer, the ruinous effect of the last unwise and unjust change in the currency, was felt and condemned. To this, then, more than any other cause, he attributed the present extraordinary situation of this country, in which a people of greater industry, energy, skill, and ability than any other people in the world, were reduced to a state of the extremest and most grievous distress. Well and truly, then, might the change in the currency be termed ruinous and disastrous. The next topic to which the petitioners adverted was that of the Corn-laws; upon which subject a very strong public opinion prevailed. He, for one, however, felt that they were necessary for the protection of the agricultural interests. The petitioners appeared to entertain a different opinion, and expressed their conviction, that it was owing to the operation of the present system of the Corn-laws that wages had been reduced. He, however, was of opinion that if it were not for those laws, wages would have been reduced still lower. The great affliction of the lower orders was low wages, — insufficient wages. From whence did that arise?—From want of means in the employer to pay more, in consequence of the lowness of the prices which he obtained for the produce of his capital. That had compelled the agriculturist and the manufacturer to reduce the amount of wages paid to the labourers; and unless the means of the employer were increased, it was impossible that a
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fair or adequate remuneration could be given to the workman for his labour. Let the demand for labour be increased; let the means of the employer be increased, and the rate of wages would be raised. But the change of the currency, and not the Corn-laws was the cause of this want of means, which might be proved to demonstration, if the case were fairly investigated. At the time that the contraction of the currency took place, the distress began, and, as in subsequent years, the currency became more and more contracted, exactly in the same proportion the distress of the country became more and more severe. It was, therefore, the duty of the House to institute an inquiry into the subject, with a view to ascertain how far the distressed condition of the industrious classes had been produced by the operation of the contracted currency, and how far it might be alleviated by a change; and, unless some other hon. Gentleman, more able than he was, would undertake to move for such an inquiry after the holidays, he should feel it to be his duty to take up the subject. It was admitted on all hands, that the change of the currency — the raising of the value of money—must press, to a certain extent upon the industrious classes of the community; and when the people, in many parts of the country were driven to acts of violence and outrage from the pressure of distress, it became the imperative duty of the House to institute an inquiry, for the purpose of ascertaining how far the evil might be remedied. The distressed state of the country was the first consideration which ought to occupy the attention of Parliament after the recess. At present, neither the agriculturist nor the manufacturer obtained any adequate return for the expenditure of his capital; the labourer was not sufficiently remunerated for his toil; and the consequence was, that all classes were discontented, and the country threatened with convulsion. The bonds of society were already rent; and discord, tumult, and outrage had begun their career. Could it be denied, then, that the first attention of Parliament should be directed to this state of things, with a view to avert the greater evils which must ensue if relief were not afforded?
Sir R. Inglissaid, that as he was not likely to have another opportunity before the holidays, he felt himself called on to express his opinions on a subject which

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was at present made the source of considerable excitement in the country—the question of Parliamentary Reform. He believed, and he made the declaration without hesitation, that the sentiments of the great body of the intelligent and well-educated persons in the community were not more favourable to Reform at this moment than at any given period within the memory of man. The multitude— the uneducated and unthinking classes might entertain opinions at the present crisis somewhat differing from those they held six months ago, or from those they would probably hold some six months hence. He did not mean to deny that, from certain peculiar events, the advocates for a Reform in Parliament were just now more in favour with a portion of the people than they had been a short time since, but he looked forward with confidence to the speedy return of a sound and healthy state of public opinion on that question.
Mr. Bernalfelt strongly inclined to ask the hon. Baronet, the member for the University of Oxford, who the persons were, and in what class they were to be found, whom he denominated the intelligent portion of the community. And he would be glad also to know at what period all classes had so loudly demanded, and were in fact so absolutely clamorous, for a Reform of Parliament. He thought that the intelligence of which the hon. Baronet spoke, was to be found in the middle classes. They were the persons who now demanded a Reform of Parliament; and if the present Ministry did not make up their minds to grant the concessions which were required from them by the universal voice of that class, he saw no prospect of permanency in power for them, nor for any other party which might be called to take the helm of affairs. He was no advocate for what was called radical Reform; but he wished to see the intelligence and the property (if they pleased) of this country fairly and truly represented in Parliament; for as the House was at that moment constituted, no man could say, that, intelligence and property were fairly represented.
Mr. Horace Twisssaid, he could not well understand why the observations of the member for Oxford had been received with a laugh by those who merely entertained a different opinion. It was by no means certain that the feelings of the people were so universally in favour of
22
Reform as the present Government seemed to suppose. A very short time would, however, enable the House to go into a discussion of that question, and he should reserve himself for that occasion. He would then merely say, that the members of the present Government would be more fortunate than any of their predecessors, or than created man ever had been, if they succeeded in proposing a plan of Reform which would be equally acceptable to every class of reformers. If the whole of that class of persons were to be polled, taking in the advocates of Universal Suffrage, and Vote by Ballot on the one hand, and the most moderate reformer of general existing abuses on the other, he believed a much greater number of the people of this country would be found willing to vote for the continuance of the system as at present, with all its faults, than for any other which could be proposed to them.
Mr. W. Duncombewas not disposed to agree with the hon. member for Oxford, that the desire for Reform had not increased. He believed that some Reform was necessary, and that the desire for it had lately made considerable progress in the country. When Ministers brought forward their plan of Reform, he would give it his best consideration; and if he could, consistently with his sense of duty, and without yielding to mere popular clamour, assent to that plan, he would give it his most cordial support.
Mr. Attwooddid not believe it possible for the Government to go so far as it promised, nor did he believe that even what it professed, could it act up to its professions, would satisfy the people. Their demand for Reform was neither temperate nor moderate. Much as the Ministers were disposed to boast of, and to vaunt their new-born popularity, it rested, in his opinion, on a very slippery foundation, and he was confident they would not long be able to retain possession of the popular confidence. They refused to look into the real cause of the distresses of the people, although they vaunted so much their desire to relieve them. In the petition which was before the House, a prayer was to be found for an alteration of the Corn-laws. He always felt grieved to see the attention of the public diverted in this manner to the discussion of fallacies, be cause they were diverted from the real cause of the distress. The Corn-laws, so

23
far from being injurious, bad really tended much to diminish the injurious tendency of the interference with the currency. The principal object sought for at the present moment seemed, however, to be Reform—for the Ballot, so loudly demanded, was nothing but a new principle of the old question of Reform. He would just call the attention of the Government to the last passage of the petition now presented. He would desire those who profess themselves determined to float on the popular current, to look to the words of the petition, in which it is declared, that unless a Reform be granted to the extent which, in their wisdom, will be considered sufficient, the refusal will be speedily followed by a popular rebellion, of which England must be the victim. Now, when he saw a Ministry of this country priding itself so much on popular applause, not only in that House, but on the hustings at elections, and in all public and county meetings, he confessed he could not entertain any very sanguine hope of their being long able to satisfy the wishes or the hopes of those whose opinions they thus courted; nor could he entertain any strong opinion of the duration of a power which professed to found itself solely, and rely exclusively on the confidence of the people. He had heard a good deal of the professions of the Government with respect to Reform, and he should like much to hear them state some palpable, tangible alteration which they proposed to make in the system of Representation. He should like to know what sacrifices they proposed to make to popular applause? He should be glad to know to what lengths they were willing to go with those whose favour they sought, and whose opinions they professed to court? What part of the existing institutions of the country they were prepared to sacrifice? At what point they proposed to make their stand against popular innovation? What they proposed to abandon, and at what boundary they were prepared to pause in their career, and brave all the censure of their present admirers, and the full force of opposing public opinion? For a Ministry, resting, as the present did, on popular favour and popular confidence, he considered it most extraordinary, that one of their first —their very first acts, should have been an addition to the standing army, and consequently, to the burthens of the people. Jo the midst of peace, with no foreign
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enemy to fear, with nothing to dread, but the very people for whose support they look, and whose confidence they boast of possessing, they had proposed a large addition to the military force. This was an ominous commencement for those who existed but by the public confidence. The Ministers had, he feared, assumed too rashly that they possessed public confidence; and built too heavily on a popularity which would speedily fail them. Though he did not approve of the policy of the late Ministers, their manly, direct avowal of it was far better than the vague, obscure, and undefined promises made by the present Ministry, merely to catch popularity. Why was it even that they were popular? Because they advocated Reform. Taking advantage of the removal of that which has always been the bulwark against Reform—the great prosperity of the people; for as long as they were prosperous, declaimers in favour of Parliamentary Reform declaimed in vain;— taking advantage, he said, of the discontent, arising from property having been confiscated, and trade destroyed, they had put themselves at the head of that discontent, and promised to gratify it by reforming the institutions of the country. As long as the people found protection under the system of government, they were contented, and did not heed the theorists who told them they could improve the government. He was afraid a little experience would teach the people, that the present Ministers could give them no protection, and would give them no relief. They had come into power with promises of an immediate and effectual redress of all the abuses of the State, but a little time would show that they had exaggerated their power and their means—that they were grossly deluding those who trusted in them—and that they were impotent to relieve the country from the difficulties in which it was placed. They were more powerless to relieve the distress than the late Administration, and were practising a gross imposition by making the people believe that they would or could relieve their distress. He had hoped to see a man in office capable of confronting the evils of the times; the present Prime Minister seemed made up of vague and empty promises. The Prime Minister, within three hours of his appointment, declared in another place, that the night should not pass away without his summoning a Coun-

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cil to devise some remedy for the distresses of the people, and instituting an inquiry into the cause of those distresses. He entreated the Ministers not to tamper with the country, not to put forward petty schemes that were wholly inadequate to meet and relieve its deep calamities. He entreated them not to increase the army, and to shuffle anew the cards of taxation, changing, but not lessening, the burthen. Nothing had, indeed, yet been done. The Ministers were practising a system of delusion, which would, in fact, destroy the character of all public men. When it was found that they deserted their professions—and desert them they must, for they would find it impossible to perform them—the character of all public men would in future be so much suspected, that all confidence must be at an end between the people and the Government. The hon. Gentleman concluded by observing, that he had not dealt in flattery. He had spoken truths, however unpalatable they might be to those who heard them.
On the question that the petition be brought up,
Mr. Humerose to defend the character of the Ministry, and to justify the course adopted by the noble Premier, with respect to the question of Reform. That noble Lord had not held out any illusions, or pledged himself to more than he could perform. On that occasion, the noble Lord thus expressed himself in the other House [cries of "Order!"]. He thought, that as the hon. Member had referred to what took place elsewhere, he might do so too. He happened to have brought down the paper containing the words alluded to by the hon. Member, for another purpose, and he would now read it to the House.
The hon. Member attempted to read a paper, beginning with the words, "My Lords," but he was as often called to order, and
The Speakerat length informed him, that he could not read the paper, with reference to its being the speech of a noble Lord of the other House, because the custom of Parliament forbade it; and furthermore, the hon. Member must be aware, that it could not have been inserted in the paper alluded to without a breach of the privileges of Parliament.
Mr. Hume:—Well, then, I'll take another way. In a certain island called Brob-
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dignag, there was a Chief called to command over his brother Chieftains, and he addressed them in these words:— "Fellow Chiefs! The State you know is in great danger, and I think it will be well to make preparation for the storm which is approaching. Make fast your doors. Bar down your windows. Be prepared for defence. I think that the manner in which you are to meet the foe, demands your attention; and that you are, above all other things, especially bound to endeavour to gain the affections of your enemies. I don't mean to say that they have rights; but I think it will be admitted, that it is expedient to give a little, in order to guard against ultimate evil." These, said the hon. Member, were the words of the Chief, and they were intended to show, that a resistance to what the voice of the people so loudly demanded, would be impolitic; and that by giving what was likely to satisfy their reasonable demands, would render bolts and bars unnecessary. It was but fair to give the new Ministers a fair trial, and not to add to the difficulties which every honest Ministry must experience, under the existing system, in their attempts to redress public grievances.
Mr. Attwoodexplained, that he was not opposed to the present Ministry, and he would support those who served the country.
Mr. Curteisdenied, that the tithes were felt by the agriculturists as a burthen; and maintained, that if a vote by ballot were conceded, it would involve the country in all the horrors of a civil war. He allowed that the great majority of the people were favourable to Parliamentary Reform; but he denied that they were favourable to the ballot. He had been attacked a few nights before, for using intemperate language, and those who attacked him had now supported a petition threatening rebellion.
Petition to be printed.

PURCHASE OF THE ISLE OF MAN.
Mr. Humein moving for the following Returns, viz. of the expense of the whole establishments now maintained in the Isle of Man, and paid from public monies, for the civil, military, revenue, and other departments (including that of the Church); stating the name of every person receiving more than 50 l. a year in salaries, fees, or other emoluments; the office he holds;

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whether the duty is performed by the principal, or by deputy; by whom appointed, and whether for life, or during pleasure: of the duties of Custom and Excise on all the articles in the Isle of Man, where the rates of duty are less than on the same articles imported into, or used in England, or Scotland; stating, in parallel columns, the rates in both places; begged to say a few words to the right hon. Gentleman opposite. It would be recollected, that the Isle of Man formerly belonged to the Duke of Athol, and that several purchases were made of his rights, till the public had paid half a million of money. One of the reasons why he concurred in passing an Act, authorising a reference to fix the proper sum that should be paid was, that a promise was made, that as soon as all the rights in question had been purchased, arrangements should be entered into, to put the Isle of Man on the same footing with Scotland and England, in order to prevent the smuggling which the low rate of duties in that island was known to create. He regretted that the late Ministers were better than two years in possession of all those rights, and neglected to make any use of them, for the advantage of the country. A sum of 270,000 l. was paid for the bishoprick of Sodor and Man, and some appendages connected with it. The public paid for the income of the Bishop, upon a valuation of 5,000 l. per annum, but the Bishop could not make 2000 l. per annum. It was therefore proper to inquire, before all the arrangements were sanctioned by the House, whether some refunding should not take place. After the payment of 75,000 l. which was thought to be final, a claim for an additional 250,000 l. was made, on the ground that the premises had not been clearly understood; and if it should turn out that this was the case, the public would have as much right to go back as forward.
Lord Lowtherthought, that the hon. member for Middlesex, had given rather an exaggerated statement of the badness of this bargain. The sovereignty of the Isle of Man was bought of the Duke of Athol, who, though owing fealty to the King, had certain rights, the exercise of which was particularly inconvenient, on account of the encouragement it gave to smuggling on the coasts of Lancashire and Cumberland: a power was therefore given by the House, to purchase those rights, and persons were
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appointed to make a fair valuation; viz. Mr. Harrison on the part of the Duke of Athol, and Mr. William Courtenay, a Member of this House, on the part of the Crown. Each of these gentlemen employed a different surveyor, and the present Mr. Justice Bosanquet was called in as arbitrator. By these gentlemen it was settled, that 417,000 l. should be paid for those rights, a large portion of that sum being for duties and customs. With respect to the bishoprick, for which 217,000 l. was given, it was at no time valued at above 2,800 l. a year; but there were purchased with it seventeen Livings, one of them worth 1000 l. a year. Upon the whole, he believed the purchase to be very advantageous, and so did Parliament, for it allowed, the Duke of Athol an extra sum for the bargain. The duties and customs alone would make it advantageous and they were ridiculously low—6d.. being paid upon tea, and 2s. 6d. upon brandy, which imported into England, would be charged ten times that amount. His right hon. friend intended last year to equalize the duties, but the press of business prevented him.
Return ordered.

REGISTER OF DEEDS BILL.
Mr. John Campbellbrought in his Bill, "for establishing a general Register for all Deeds and Instruments affecting Real Property in England and Wales." Read a first time. The hon. Member in moving that it be printed, wished to make a single observation. He was apprehensive that those who were well disposed to the principle of the measure, might consider, perhaps, that it was longer and more complicated than was necessary. In framing the Bill, however, he had not merely had to make a new enactment, but to frame a law in reference to all the laws and anomalous regulations now in force. He could assure the House that simplicity and brevity had been most anxiously studied in adapting the Bill to existing regulations, and he hoped and trusted that its effect would be most beneficial. The Bill contained many provisions not essentially necessary to its principle, and which might be deviated from without affecting the principle. For instance, it was part of the Bill to have one Register Office, situated in the metropolis, for the whole of England and Wales. If it was the pleasure of the

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House, however, there might be an Office in every county which would be perfectly consistent with the general principle of the Bill. Another part of the Bill related to the nature of the documents, and provided that all deeds should be deposited. This was rather a startling proposition, but it would not be inconsistent with the principle of the Bill to enact that a duplicate, or a memorial, or a copy of a deed, should be deposited. The principle of the Bill was, that there should be some public place where all deeds and documents affecting real property should be registered and open to inspection. That alone was the principle, and the details might be subject to many modifications, without touching on the principle. Bill to be printed.

INCONVENIENCES OF TITHES.
Mr. Hume Mr. Hume, in presenting a petition, concerning litigation on Tithe questions, at Havering-atte-Bower, in the County of Essex, said, he was extremely unwilling to occupy the time of the House when so few Members were present; but feeling that there was very little chance of being able to find an opportunity for presenting the petition on Thursday, he was compelled, however reluctant, then to call the attention of the House to the matter contained in it. He must say, in the first instance, that he had been much surprised at the facts set forth in this petition. Since he had called upon the House to consider the abuses of the Tithe system in Ireland, in the year 1821 or 1822, he had heard of no case so striking. He was not aware, indeed, that any such cases existed in England, as the details connected with this petition had brought to his knowledge; and he could scarcely have believed it possible that such abuses and vexations prevailed in the collection of this most unpopular and most impolitic tax. He had first to state to the House, that the liberty or hundred of Havering-atte-Bower contains 7,000 inhabitants; the tithes of which are held as lay tithes, by the New College of Oxford. The Warden and Fellows of that Ecclesiastical Corporation leased the tithes to several individuals; the Rev. Mr. Bearblock and his sons, and a Mr. Morgan being the lessees of the Hornchurch division, and the Rev. Mr. Rawbone the lessee of the small tithes of Romford. The Hornchurch division pays upwards of 3,500 l. per annum, and the Romford division pays 2,400 l. in tithes; so that this liberty pays
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altogether very near 6,000 l. He did not state, that the inhabitants of the district had not adequate religious instruction; for although that had been stated to him, it might arise from peculiar circumstances; but when the sum was so large, and the manner of collecting it so open to abuse and multiplied vexations, it was high time for the country to rouse itself and to obtain reform. From all that he had seen and heard, he was satisfied, that tithes were a fertile source of vexation, and that, particularly in the southern and eastern counties, they were amongst the chief causes of discontent and disturbance. In Norfolk and Essex they were particularly odious; and there was scarcely any part of the kingdom where the payment of tithes was not a source of great dissatisfaction. Every Gentleman who attended to the petitions presented to the House must be aware of that fact. Every petition now presented, coupled a prayer for the reform of the tithe-system, with a prayer for the reduction of taxation, or for some other species of reform. The petition which he had to present to the House was founded on resolutions agreed to at a public meeting, held at the Court-house, Homford; at which nearly all the landholders in the neighbourhood attended. The statements in the petition had been corroborated by Sir Thomas Neave, and other gentlemen with whom he was acquainted. He had also been informed of the resolutions agreed to, and of the discussion which took place, and he could not help expressing his surprise, that a College, or any body of men, should have sanctioned a system of collecting tithes, so vexatious, oppressive, and annoying-, as almost to have driven the occupiers from the land. Such, however, was the case in the district of Havering-atte-Bower. The petition stated, that the liberty is a Peculiar, exempt from episcopal jurisdiction, the tithes being held in lay fee by the New College at Oxford;—that by the records of the College and of the hundred, it appears that the lands in this liberty had ever been subject to pay a modus in lieu of rendering-tithe of hay in kind, and another modus in lieu of lambs in kind; but yet, that the individuals in possession of the tithe, under lease from New College, compelled them to pay tithes of hay and lambs in kind; and when the occupiers resorted to a Court of Law for redress, the lessees called upon them to prove an uninter-

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rupted payment of the moduses from the year 1180. The occupiers were able to prove the payment of the modus from 1641, for they produced a document drawn up by the person then entitled to receive the tithes, which had been in the possession of the College, and was in these words:—
"Tithe.—Corn I receive in kinde, that is, every tenth shock. Tithe—Hay I receive some in kinde, but for every acre of river, meadow, or ground which was never plowed yearly, after the rate of four-pence; and for every acre of upland which hath been plowed yearly, after the rate of three-pence, according to the ancient custom. 1641." And Signed "THOS. JERMYN."
Similar documents were brought forward, bearing date in 1648 and 1662, by means of what is called a cross bill in Chancery, but they were held to be not sufficient, as the petitioners could not prove so far back as the year 1180. The occupiers, tired out by prosecution after prosecution, were compelled to submit to the exactions of the lessees. The principal points which the petitioners complained of were the change which had been made in the amount of payments demanded for tithes, and the principle laid down by the Court of Chancery, denying them legal redress against those increased impositions. They stated that the rule laid down by the Court, namely, that the defendant was bound to prove the uninterrupted payment of a certain modus from the commencement of legal memory, is not authorized by any Statute or Act of Parliament. The petitioners did not dispute the commands of the Legislature, but after incurring expenses to the amount of above 3,000 l. the Judge dismissed their cause upon a technicality, wholly unworthy of a suit of this kind, and wholly unconnected with the real merits of the case. This was one evil which the House should remedy without delay. It should take away the power from the tithe-proctor of ruining the tithe-payer by legal expenses, and should provide a better mode of deciding tithe questions than was to be found in the Court of Chancery. An Act of William 3rd provided, that all claims, for tithes under 10 l. should be taken before a Magistrate, and decided at an expense not exceeding 10 s.. In these cases, however, a claim for 6l. had been carried into the Court of Chancery, at an expense of 100 l. or 200 l. to each of the defendants. The number of suits now pending arising from this small district was very considerable. The Rev. Mr. Bearblock—
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who was, he understood, well known by his writings on tithes,—set an unusually high value on the tithes he leased, and levied them in a most vexatious manner. By the modus which was proved by the occupiers to have existed for nearly 300 years, though they could not carry up the proof to the year 1180, they only paid about one-fifth of the sum Mr. Bearblock called upon them to pay. The amount of the modus on seven acres of old pasture land, mowed fourteen years at 4d. per acre per annum, would have been 1l. 12 s. 8d.. The amount actually demanded and paid for the tithe of the same seven acres of land, for the same number of years, was now 66 l. 3s., being an actual overcharge of 64 l. 10 s.. 4d. on seven acres of land. Again, the amount of the modus on ninety-seven acres of old pasture for fourteen years, at 4s. per acre, would be 22 l. 12 s..8d.. The amount actually paid for the tithe of those ninety-seven acres, at the rate for which the occupier compounded for six of the fourteen years, was 741 l. 4s. 10 d. being a positive exaction of 718 l. 12 s. 2d.. The grievance was not confined to the tithe on hay, however. The mode of collecting the small tithes in this district was most extraordinary, vexatious, and annoying-. As to the modus on lambs, the average value of the lambs reared in this liberty, all of which were fatted for the London market, was stated to be 1l. 8s. The modus was 1d.. each on ten lambs, making the sum paid for the tithe lamb 10 d.., but as the tithe-owner now took the lamb, the difference in his favour was 1l. 7s.. 2d.. on each tithe lamb; and the total difference in the tithe of lambs reared annually in this district, the number being about 1,500 was above 200 l., or by taking tithe in kind the clergyman received 200 l. more than he would under the old established modus. This was only one instance amongst many; and the petitioners desired to have an Act passed to save them from the continuance of such grievous overcharges. They were anxious that a short bill should be passed to limit the rights of the Church, as to time, agreeably to the recommendations of the Law Commissioners, that there should be the same law for the Church as for the Crown. Certainly, it would be very desirable to limit the rights of the Church to possession or custom, as in the case of freehold property. With respect to the vexatious modes followed, in demanding

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that the tithes should be set out in kind, for the purpose of extorting high compositions, he would illustrate them by stating a few facts. A fanner who had a cow and calf, was not allowed to take them to market until the calf was tithe able; that is, until it could live without its mother. The poor farmer might want to send his cow and calf to market, to pay a debt; but no, the tithe-man stepped in and told him he must defer selling his property until the tithe-owner was satisfied. The very possibility of such a thing occurring was bad enough; and a system which admitted such vexatious proceedings, ought not to be allowed to continue for another year. Individuals had even been prosecuted in this liberty for selling their ewes and lambs when they had not sufficient provender for them: the tithe-collector contending, that they should not be sold until the lambs could do without the ewes The farmer was obliged, therefore, to keep his lambs and ewes until they were starved, to suit the purposes of the tithe-collector. He did not believe, that in a country like England, such a state of the law could exist. He had heard of such vexatious proceedings in Ireland, but did not suppose they took place in England. The farmers in this district, who were in the practice of fattening calves for the London market, were also subject to great inconvenience and loss by the practice of taking the tenth day's milk. If the tithe-receiver took a tenth of the milk every day it would not be so injurious, but he took the tenth day's milk, and then the calves had to go without, or they had only stale milk, which was extremely prejudicial to them. The inhabitants of this district also, grow large quantities of potatoes for the London market, and the petitioners stated, that the practice was, to put out every tenth row or ridge of potatoes for tithe. Instead of allowing the fanner, however, to dig up his own nine rows, leaving the tenth row for the tithe-man, the latter demanded that the potatoes should be measured over at the end of each day's work, by which the farmer was prevented getting the potatoes sorted and washed in time for the early market next day: he was obliged to wait until the whole were dug up, and then to measure them; by which he was prevented from housing them and securing them against the weather or theft. This case had been found so oppressive and injurious, that it had
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been carried into the Court of King's Bench; but after much trouble and expense, it had gone over to the Court of Arches, where it was likely to be decided after the usual manner of Ecclesiastical Courts. It was impossible not to perceive that cases of this description gave rise to feelings utterly inconsistent, with the peace, of the country. Would it be believed that on poultry the tithe-man demanded the tenth egg, and an agistment tithe of the young from the time they were hatched. If a farmer had forty hens, he had to keep an account of the number of eggs laid—of the number of chickens hatched—of the number which the fox carried away—and of all casualties in his poultry-yard until they were killed or sold. He must keep a regular account, therefore, of every brood until the tithe-man came to make his charge. He would read one letter from a tithe-agent as a specimen of the manner in which these things were managed.
"Sir;—I understand from the tithing-man of the Rev. Mr. Rawbone, that, from the 23rd of December, to the present time, he has received only four eggs as the tithe of the produce of nine hens; and I am credibly informed that a much greater quantity than forty have been produced. I have, therefore', to beg. that you will, forthwith, render me an account of such eggs as have been produced, to save the necessity of legal proceedings, which will immediately follow your default.
(Signed; "THOMAS TOWN-SEND,
Romford."
[Mr. Hughes Hughes suggested to the hon. Member the propriety of not reading the names of the parties, some of whom, being clergymen, it would place invidiously before the public] He would not read the names, though they were all mentioned at the meeting from which the petition emanated. In this case, however, the farmer said to the titheman—
"Mr.— I have sent you the tithe of all the eggs I had, but if you are not satisfied, come when the hens are hunted up of a morning, and you shall have an account."
The tithing-man, however, required a distinct account. Another letter ran thus:—
"Sir;—Mr.—'s tithing-man having now, pursuant to your notice, attended at your house upwards of thirty times, without receiving any tithes, I beg to inform you, that he will not attend pursuant to that notice any more, and you are required to give a distinct and fresh notice every day on which you intend setting out any tithe—[the tithe of a dozen of eggs for instance]—and I beg_ of you most distinctly to understand, that in con- sequence of this vexatious and ridiculous conduct on your part, Mr.—will feel justified

35
in pursuing the utmost severity of the law against you, for any omission, however trifling, and I give you this notice, in order that you may not feel hardly used by Mr.— taking proceedings against you; and as you have since last Michaelmas persevered in the practice which I told you was illegal, viz. depasturing cattle without giving the tithing-man notice when they were taken into your fields, I am directed immediately to commence a suit in the Exchequer against you for such default."
There was one circumstance alluded to in this letter to which he would direct attention. A farmer, who keeps an inn, has also a field to receive the cattle of the dealers who frequent, the neighbouring fairs and markets; and the tithing-man requires from this person a notice when cattle come in, which it is impossible for him to give, as the cattle come and go at uncertain periods of the day and night, without the farmer himself previously knowing when they are to come. What the tithe-receiver required, therefore, could not be done. Nevertheless, the individual had had a hill filed against him in the Court of Exchequer, the expense of which would be three times more than the whole property of the individual against whom the suit was brought. The man was carried to the Court of Exchequer, which was thus made an instrument of extortion for the purpose of compelling him to pay a large sum for composition. Was it to be borne that a man could not take a head of celery out of his garden, or put a cabbage into his pot, without sending notice to the tithing-man, or subjecting himself to an Exchequer process. He understood, that a suit was lately tried before the Lord Chief Baron Alexander, which was actually instituted to recover the tithe of five cabbages and three heads of celery. The Chief Baron then made the observation —"that it was very easy to lay down the principle upon which the tithe of vegetables should be set out, but that he could not imagine how it could be carried into effect, the difficulty was so great." Was it then a fair or a reasonable thing that a man should not be able to use the produce of his own garden, without running the risk of a prosecution? He was assured that he should be able to prove every one of the facts he had stated, if, after the recess, the House should be of opinion that a Select Committee ought to inquire into the subject. It was necessary that the House should adopt some proceeding, though an investigation need not be of
36
very great length to prove that the system was most pernicious by a few particular instances of vexatious oppression. He had mentioned only a few cases, but he had been told, that there were numerous cases in the same neighbourhood, quite as gross; and that individuals were ready to establish them. The system of annoyance and exaction had gone on, until at last the people were at a loss to know how to rid themselves of the annoyance. The tithe-receivers continually increased their demands. One person informed him, that he hired a farm in 1828, and the sum then demanded of him for tithes was in the proportion of 80 l. to every 100 l. of rent. He would just ask the House, what must be the feelings of the people? Was it not evident, that with impending prosecutions daily, they must wish to rid themselves of such an odious and ruinous system on any terms? Was it not enough to make every man discontented. No doubt, many persons would submit because the law gave them no protection, and would yield until they were compelled to pay two or three times the amount of what the tithe-owner had a right to claim. For him there was no redress; he might be taken to the Ecclesiastical Court. A person was taken before Sir John Nichol, into the Arches Court; 6l. was the amount of the claim against him, and his expenses were 180 l. It was a case in which tithes to the value of 6l. were taken away. Then there was the case of Fanshaw v. Brittan, in which the subject in dispute, as he had already staled, was the tithe on five cabbages and three heads of celery. The petitioners prayed, that tithe-owners should not be allowed to remove their claims for tithes to those Courts where a decision was obtained at so enormous an expense; and they also prayed the House to devise some means of putting a limit to claims for tithes. No claim ought to be taken to the Court of Exchequer for tithes, which did not amount at least to 20 l. and all claims for smaller sums should be settled by the nearest Magistrate, according to the Act of William 3rd, to which he had already referred. There were some other circumstances referred to by these petitioners, extremely well deserving the attention of hon. Members anxious to build churches and places of religious worship. It appeared that there were certain religious duties to be performed within this liberty, for which the New College at Ox-

37
ford was bound to provide, but which it seemed to neglect, and even a Curate who preached two sermons instead of one on the Sunday, was forbid to continue doing so, lest it might grow into a practice; and the parishioners were obliged to subscribe amongst themselves for an evening lecture at the Curate's own house. He considered this subject of vital importance to the peace of the country, and when such cases of oppression and vexation occurred, it was no wonder that exasperation should be felt and violence ensue. Such feelings prevailing throughout the country, and such violence having taken place, it was necessary that Government should take up the subject of tithes, and propose some plan to put an end to the present vexatious system.
Mr. Long Wellesleyregretted the presentation of the petition in the existing state of the House, for never, perhaps, was one of greater importance offered to its notice. He had been asked by many of those who signed it to support its prayer. He knew the parties, and knew that many of the facts stated were strictly correct. He was perfectly acquainted with the district referred to in the petition, for his property was surrounded by a part of it. It was not his wish at that time to enter into all the circumstances connected with this case, which was, he hoped and believed, an extreme one, and that no other case of equal hardship and oppression could be found in any part of the country. Let the House mark what the petitioners stated, and look at the situation of the Established Church and of the law, with such causes of dissatisfaction in existence; and mark too the situation of the petitioners, driven to seek the expensive aid of Chancery, as a protection against the already too onerous impost of tithes. He knew the place and the people, and knew that they had no political feeling adverse to the Government. There was not. in the whole country, for a series of years, a body of men so strictly loyal, such rigid Tories, so proud of the Constitution under which they lived, and (though the: hon. member for Middlesex would not think the better of them for this) so ready at paying war taxes. There were no men who adhered more pertinaciously lo the Government—the Tory Government—than the people of Havering-atte-Bower and its neighbourhood. Only that very day, however, a person stated
38
to him, that there wore very unpleasant demonstrations of feeling in that neighbourhood; and when a reference was made to the means adopted elsewhere for the prevention of tumults and breaches of the law, his observation was, "Sir, the conduct of the parson is such, that I dare not. swear in those proper persons who would otherwise be sworn in as special constables." The consequence, therefore, of the proceedings referred to in the petition, was disaffection amongst the great body of the people of that district. He deeply regretted, that it. should have been necessary to present such a petition, and should have been glad if any mode had been suggested, by which it might have been avoided, but the case having been brought forward, in the face of the country, it ought to undergo a thorough investigation for the sake of the Church itself. He wished well to the Church, and therefore he was anxious that, in such a case as this, a proper remedy should be devised. It was because he wished well to the Church that he was desirous of such a modification of the law as would prevent the recurrence of such monstrous evils. He wished to restore the Church to its primitive excellence, and he hoped that clergymen would not continue to be placed in their present invidious situations. There were circumstances connected with this case which the hon. member for Middlesex had not referred to. The amount of the tithes levied in the district was 6,000 l. a year—an enormous sum in proportion to the rental. He knew a farm within this district, the rent of which was 100 l. and it paid 80 l. for tithes. This sum of 6,000 l. was exacted, not by an individual resident in the place, but by the New College, Oxford, which was said to apply it in this way:— It paid 1,300 l. to the rector of Romford, a non-resident Rector, who never performed any fluty, and never went near that town. That Rector, receiving 1,300 l. a year himself, paid 100 l. a year to a Curate, who performed divine service once a week. This was the situation of the inhabitants of Romford; a large and populous town; and the adjoining hamlet of Hornchurch was precisely in the same situation; could there be a greater grievance? The parties who paid this large amount for tithes never saw the Rector, he paid his Curate 100 l. a year out of 1,300 l. and the remainder of the 6,000 l. went to the funds of New College, so that the district

39
actually paid 6,000 l. for services that were requited by the sixtieth part of that sum. But it was not the amount of the tithe only; the mode of collecting it was exceedingly onerous; which satisfied him of the expediency of a commutation of tithes, even if the commutation should ensure an amount as high as that to which the clergyman was entitled by the most rigorous mode of exaction. A great grievance arose from the manner in which the tithe on potatoes was collected. Honourable Members were perhaps aware, that after land had been a long time in cultivation, the farmer was obliged to go to a considerable expense before a crop could be got; potatoes, therefore, in this description of land, might be called an expensive article of manufacture. Formerly the clergyman took the tenth ridge of potatoes for his tithe; but now, the potatoes were dug and measured and the tithe was taken according to the quantity. By this method the farmer had the expense of digging up the ten ridges of potatoes, and the tithe-owner took the potatoes as they were ready for market. This was not the only grievance, however. There were certain seasons of the year when the potatoes, after they were taken from the ground, should not be exposed, but sent to London for sale immediately. He knew these facts; for he was the largest proprietor, perhaps, of this species of land in the county of Essex. At the particular seasons to which he referred, the potatoes were dug up usually in the evening; and, after being sorted, ought to be sent away at night, to be in London for the early market. This was prevented, however, by the manner in which the tithe was collected; and he had known the farmers say to the tithe-collector, "If you will come every other day, when we are sorting the potatoes, and take your tithe, well and good; but if you come in the middle of every day, you oblige me to sell the produce for less than its value, by keeping it from the market." Such representations, reasonable as they appeared had not been attended to. He believed this was an extreme case; but that such a case should exist, under the sanction of the law, shewed the necessity for commuting tithes. Great dissatisfaction was felt on this subject, and therefore he said some reform was necessary. Though anxious for reform, however, no man was more resolved than he was, to guard and
40
maintain inviolate the old and constitutional rights and just interests of the Church. He trusted, that he understood the value of them as well as any common gentleman, and he sincerely wished to preserve them in that purity which was consonant to the times. In his opinion, this would be best effected by a reform. A person who was no great reformer, (Charles 1st) however, observed, that no reform should be undertaken until the perturbation of novelty had passed away. But no one connected with rural affairs, who knew the exactions which took place, would deny that the manner in which tithes were levied was a great source of disturbance and dissatisfaction and there could be no perturbation of novelty in reforming them. Those who were not prepared to make things worse, should unite in endeavouring to remedy the evil. The dissatisfaction was not confined to any one class of the agricultural population. When the farmer remonstrated with his labourers on the outrages which were occurring throughout the country, and expressed his determination to bring the perpetrators to punishment, the peasant said to the farmer, "Why need you seek to punish us? we shall get rid of the tithe." There was a general determination therefore, more on the part of the occupier than of the landlord, to get rid of the present system of tithes. He thought it proper that the present system of tithes should be altered; that they ought to be commuted, but whether he thought so or not, when he knew that so general an opinion prevailed throughout all classes on this subject, he was certain that it would be only wise and prudent to take time by the forelock, and to concede for the sake of the Church itself. If things went on as at present, and opinions on this subject continued as strong as at present, though the landlord might get some rent, no one would get any tithe. He and other landed gentlemen might, under a course of moderation, be able to hold their own; but, as the gallant Admiral (Sir Joseph Yorke) would say, were he present, they must "hold on the slack." At the same time he thought that there was such a love of justice, and such a sense of right in the English people, that if the Legislature shewed them that it was prepared to concede what it ought, they would be satisfied. If the clergy consented to go hand in hand with the landed

41
gentlemen they might be able to maintain the Church Establishment and themselves. If a system of concession were not adopted particularly on this subject, in his opinion not only the landed proprietors and the Church, but the State itself would be in imminent danger. He would in conclusion, quote a few lines, bearing on the subject and very applicable to the present state of the country. Lord Bacon says:
"So when any of the four pillars of Government are mainly shaken or weakened (which are religion, justice, counsel, and treasure), men had need to pray for fair weather. But let us pass from this part of predictions (concerning which, nevertheless, more light may be taken from that which followeth), and let us speak first of the materials of seditions, then of the motives of them, and thirdly of the remedies. Concerning the materials of seditions, it is a thing well lo be considered, for the surest way to prevent seditions (if the times do bear; is to take away the matter of them, for if there be fuel prepared, it is hard to tell whence the spark shall come that shall set it on fire. The matter of seditions is of two kinds—much poverty, and much discontentment. It is certain. so many overthrown estates, so many votes for troubles.—Lucian noteth well the state of Home before the civil war—
'Hinc usura vorax, rapidumque in tempora fœnus
Hinc concussa fides et multis utile bellum."
"This same multis utile bellum is an assured and infallible sign of a slate disposed to sedition and troubles; and if this poverty and broken estate in the better sort, be joined with a want and necessity in the mean people, the danger is imminent and great; for the rebellions of the belly are the worst. As for discontentments, they are in the politic body, like to humours in the natural, which are apt to gather preternatural heat, and to inflame. And let no Prince measure the danger of them by this, whether they be just or unjust; for that were to imagine people to be too reasonable, who do often spurn at their own good; nor yet by this, whether the griefs whereupon they rise, be, in fact, great or small; for they are the most dangerous discontentments, where the fear is greater than the feeling. Dolendi modus, timendi non item. Besides, in great oppressions, the same things that provoke the patience, do withal make the courage; but in fears it is not so; neither let any Prince or State be secure concerning discontentments, because they have been often, or have been long, and yet no peril hath ensued; for as it is true, that every vapour or fume doth not turn into a storm, so it is nevertheless true that storms, though they blow over divers times, yet may fall at last; and as the Spanish proverb noteth well, 'the cord breaketh at the last by the weakest pull.' "
Sir Robert Inglissaid, that a petition so important was never brought forward under circumstances so inconvenient, and
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so unfair. Of the 658 Members of which this House consists, there was not one, who, having heard the notice which the hon. Member gave a short while ago, could suppose, that within an hour of giving that notice, he would have brought forward such a petition, and have prefaced its presentation by remarks which might have reminded him that it was a subject on which the House was called upon to give a deliberate opinion, and on which Members must naturally be desirous of having time for some previous, consideration. The hon. Member gave notice of his intention of presenting another petition this evening—a petition, certainly, on a subject of very great importance, from the county of Middlesex; and if that petition, in his judgment, required a notice, because he had occasion to make a speech on it, it was not too much to expect that he should have given notice of his intention to make a long speech on the subject of tithes, in presenting this petition. In making these observations on the irregularity and unfairness of the manner in which the petition had been brought forward, he begged not to be understood as doing so because he had any reluctance to meet the statements of the hon. Member, or because he entertained any—the slightest doubt—that the arguments brought forward by him would have, received a triumphant answer, if any opportunity had been given for the discussion. Without entering into that discussion at this period, and with so thin a House, he would just observe, that a great deal of what had been said by the hon. member for Middlesex depended upon the assumption, that the parties whose cases he had detailed had no legal means of redress if their complaints were well founded. The hon. member for Middlesex wished, in the first instance, to turn that House into a Court of Justice, and then into a Court of Appeal from other tribunals; but whether in the case of tithes, or in any other case, he should always resist the attempt to convert that House into any such tribunal. The hon. Member referred to those cases in which there had been decisions of a Court of Law against the parties whose cases he stated. Was that House, then, to be a Court of Review from the Court of Exchequer, or any other Court? Was it to pronounce that the tithe-proctors had acted wrong, or that an ancient modus was correct, and another modus vicious, because, by so doing, it would relieve the

43
farmers of a certain district in Essex from a payment of tithes which the law says they are bound to pay, though the payment was the subject of much complaint? In this case, however, the complaints did not apply to the clergy. No one of the cases referred to by the hon. member for Middlesex attached to the clergy. It was the exaction, as he called it, of a particular species of property in the hands of laymen. He believed, in the last case in which a petition was presented, and anything said (by an English Member at least) on the subject of tithes precisely the same thing occurred. The facts stated in that case were, that the rent of a farm was 680 l.; in consequence of the depression of the times, the landlord reduced the rent to 560 l.; but as regarded tithes, the charge in the one case was 140 l., and in the other case, when the rent was reduced, it was also 140 l. It was added, too, that when the farmer applied to the tithe-collector for a reduction of tithes, and stated that his landlord had made a reduction of rent, the answer made to him was, "You can pay your tithes so much the better as your rent has been reduced." When that petition was under discussion the tithe-proprietor was unknown, but he had since ascertained, and he had the authority of the hon. Member who presented the petition for stating it, that the tithes referred to in that petition were in the hands of a lay impropriator, although, he had no doubt, every one left the House under the impression that the tithes were the property of a clergyman. All the circumstances now stated by the hon. Member arose out of tithe property in the hands of laymen. It was of no consequence that the lessee of one portion of those tithes was a clergyman, as stated by the hon. Member: he held the tithes as a layman, and not in his clerical character. Whatever might be the value of the cases referred to by those petitioners, as supporting the views of the hon. member for Middlesex, those cases attached in no respect to the Church. The hon. Member stated, that the tithes in question belonged to New College, Oxford, which, in this instance, did not act as an ecclesiastical body The Corporation of New College, Oxford, was not an ecclesiastical body; but held its rights as the Corporation of London, or any other Corporation. Many of the Fellows of New College were laymen; and the greater
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part of their tithes, as in this instance was, in lay hands. These cases, therefore, did not in any respect affect the clergy. He regretted that the hon. member for Middlesex should have made such observations on a petition brought forward without notice; and that the hon. member for St. Ives should have thought it necessary to follow his example. Into some of the details brought forward he would make inquiry. He wished the hon. member for Clare (O'Gorman Mahon), who had been so forward in cheering the statements contained in this petition, and the observations made on them, to understand, that the clergy of the Established Church were not in any degree implicated in these cases. The Church was not answerable for the proceedings of New College, with respect to the management of its own property.
Mr. Lennardhoped, as the petition came from the immediate neighbourhood in which he resided, that the House would suffer him to make a few observations. He believed that his hon. friend, the member for Essex, left the House under the impression that the petition would not be presented to-night, and he was exceedingly sorry that his hon. friend was not present. He was prepared, however, most cordially to support the prayer of the petition, which points to a great and pressing evil, calling for immediate redress. He agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex, that the Church ought to claim its rights within a reasonable lime, or otherwise its claims should lapse, like those of individuals. The Church, and collegiate bodies, were the only corporations which now maintain this odious and invidious power,—a power so odious and unpopular, that there was no real friend of the Church who would not wish it abrogated. By the courtesy of the hon. member for Middlesex, he had had an opportunity of looking into the petition, and could bear testimony to the respectability of the petitioners. It appeared to him that the hon. Baronet, the member for the University of Oxford, had entirely mistaken the view which the hon. member for Middlesex took in presenting this petition. The hon. Member did not lay this case before the House as a Court of Appeal, but as affording reasons for calling upon the House to pass a law, by which the grounds of complaint stated in the petition might be removed. The hon. Baronet stated, that the tithes of Havering-

45
atte-Bower were to be considered as the property of lay impropriators, inasmuch as the Fellows of New College were laymen as well as clergymen; but what had that to do with the case? What difference did it make? That fact did not weaken the case of the petitioners in the least. This petition was not brought forward against the Church, but against a great abuse and evil, in which laymen as well as clergymen were concerned. There was nothing new in the complaint. The evils alleged to exist in this particular district, certainly exist in many other places, and must exist, from the state of the law. No blame was imputed to the clergyman; the fault was in the law. He had no other means of obtaining his tithes, but that which was much and justly complained of. The clergyman must submit to loss his dues on cabbages and celery, as referred to by the hon. member for Middlesex, or he must exact them in this harsh way. It was the state of the law, as regards tithes, that required revision; and for the purpose of effecting that revision, his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, had pressed the case of these petitioners into his argument, and upon that view was the petition entitled to his support. With respect to what had been stated by the hon. member for St. Ives, as to the manner in which the clerical duties were performed in the neighbourhood from whence this petition came, he was not quite correctly informed. In Mornchurch, a very large and populous village, the church-service was most properly performed. The clerical duties were performed in that village by a most excellent person, who had done the duty for several years; and he could take it upon him to state, from his knowledge of the parish, that those duties were exceedingly well performed. He agreed with the hon. member for St. Ives, that it was desirable to maintain the property of the Church establishment; but it was obviously the interest of the Church itself, that some alteration should be made in the mode of collecting tithes. Many persons connected with the Church felt this, and would be glad of some alteration in the present system. Nothing could be worse, or more painful to the clergyman, than to be obliged to quarrel with his parishioners on the subject of tithes, which he was frequently compelled to do. There ought to be a commutation of tithes, and the members of the Church, he believed, only
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required to be assured, that the commutation was to be founded on just and equitable principles, to ensure their concurrence; and no commutation, founded on different principles, should have his support.
O'Gorman Mahon O'Gorman Mahon, assured the House, that it had not been his intention to have obtruded himself on its notice, previous to the somewhat uncalled-for reference, which the hon. Baronet, the member for Oxford University, thought proper to make to him. Deeply interested as he was, and had always avowed himself to be, on this subject; feeling an interest which induced him to remain for the presentation of a petition in which he was not in any way personally concerned, but on public grounds, the case being exclusively English; he should not have ventured to offer a single sentence, but for the personal call of the hon. Baronet. Interested as he was in this subject on public grounds, that interest was greatly increased by his anxiety to hear what answer the hon. Baronet would give to the allegations of the petition, and the observations of the hon. Member who presented it; to hear, he said, the hon. Baronet—the elect of that great ecclesiastical and erudite body, the University of Oxford, — to hear him, whom he had seen there pace along so proudly, surrounded by crowds of parsons, who, leaving their flocks, had come from all parts of the kingdom to support him, to the exclusion of one who had certainly been an able advocate and champion of the cause of the Established Church — but had then become the advocate of Christian and liberal principles; the chosen knight, was to combat, as it were, with all who should dare to venture into the lists against the abuses of the Established Church. He was anxious to hear what the hon. Baronet had to offer in refutation of the charges made by the petitioners. He had felt great anxiety, but great as was his anxiety, his disappointment had been still greater. He had no doubt, when the hon. Baronet came to speak on the subject, that the House would be placed in a state of ecstasy and delight by the charms of his eloquence. He had no doubt that the men of Oxford, whom he had seen so active in propping up, the hon. Baronet, had made a well-grounded choice,—that they had selected the most competent person to represent the Church establishment in Parliament, and one most

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competent to refute any calumnies if calumnies should be uttered, against the conduct of the black, cloth. He had been grievously disappointed, however, and the disappointment had had such an effect on his spirits, that he felt himself very unequal to attempt a fitting response to the call so unexpectedly made on him by the hon. Baronet. Thus unceremoniously referred to and taunted, because he nodded assent to some observations made by the hon. member for Middlesex, might he inquire why the hon. Baronet did not permit him to remain quietly, in his position, and apply himself to the allegations made, than to the mode in which he (O'Gorman Mahon) had indicated his sense of their importance? But since it had been put on him, he would not shrink from giving his opinion on the petition, and on the nature of the answer which the hon. Baronet had attempted to give to it. The cheers which excited the hon. Baronet's wrath, were caused by the force of the statements made by the hon. member for Middlesex; but those cheers ought also to have excited the hon. Baronet to some laudable efforts, in the defence of that Church establishment, of which he is the avowed and chosen champion. He only gave the usual cheer which awaits on statements that strike home. He had cried, "hear! hear!" when particular points were made, which he conceived deserving of marked attention—when evidence was referred to, which left a strong impression on the mind—or when evidence was adduced, which, if not contravened, must carry conviction to the minds of all. Now, what answer did the hon. Baronet, the member for the Oxford University, give to this petition? He occupied the House for several minutes with his reply. He complained that the hon. member for Middlesex had made a speech of an hour in presenting the petition; but what answer did the hon. Baronet give to the petition? Did he deny any one allegation contained in it? Did he combat a single observation that accompanied it? Quite the contrary He—the champion of the Church—was silent on these points, and allowed every allegation contained in the petition to stand uncontradicted. He lamented, forsooth, that the petition was brought forward in so thin a House! So did he. He lamented that all England was not within earshot, and he wished that the statements contained in this petition were within the scope and the consider-
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ation of every man in the community. What those hon. Members who spoke in support of this petition mildly called injurious exactions, the country would denominate most iniquitous and disgraceful proceedings. How were the arguments of these hon. Members answered by the champion of the Church? He did not deny a single fact, but, instead of argument, he attempted to substitute a wretched equivoque. He said, these deeds being done, were not done by churchmen in their clerical capacity. It was true, the tithe-receiver—he who sent to try the very hens, and put them under contribution,— was in reality a clergyman, though in doing this, he acted not in his clerical character, but by the authority and in the capacity of lay impropriator. Most miserable subterfuge! but let the House analyse the argument of the hon. Baronet, which invested the same individual with two distinct characters—those of layman and clergyman—but would seek to strip him of the latter, while he happened to be engaged in the practices now described. When these practices were enacting, he must be viewed in his lay character only, and not at all in his clerical.—What! he, a clergyman—one of the sanctified of the Lord,—whose forehead the holy oil had anointed! who—
Mr. Courtenayrose to order. He moved that the House be counted.
O'Gonnan Mahon O'Gonnan Mahon, thought he ought not to be interrupted in the midst of a reply forced from him by the hon. Baronet's observations. His answer ought not to be evaded by a motion of this description; besides, the petition was not disposed of.
The Speakerexplained, that when any Member noticed that forty Members were not present, and called upon him to count the House, he was bound to do so; no motion could be made, nor any business proceeded with, after it was remarked and ascertained that there were not forty Members present, for, strictly speaking, there was then no House competent to dispose of any motion. The House was accordingly counted, and forty Members not being present, was adjourned.