Commons Sitting of 13 December 1830

MINUTES.
The Colonial Acts Validity Bill was read a third time and passed.
Writs. On the Motion of Mr. PLANTA, a new Writ was ordered to be issued for the election of a Member for the Borough of Lostwithiel, in the room of the right hon. VESEY FITZGERALD, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
Petitions presented. By Mr. H. DAVIS, from the Inhabitants of the parishes of All Saints, St. Werburgh, and St. Mary, Bristol, for a repeal of the Assessed Taxes. For the abolition of Slavery, by Lord LOWTHER, from Kendal and Appleby, in Westmoreland:—By Colonel CAVENDISH, from Derby, and another place:—By Mr. KENNEDY, from a place in Ayr:—By Mr. WM. DUNCOMBE, from Holmfirth, Yorkshire:—By Sir R. H. INGLIS, from Turvey, Bedford:—By Sir T. ACLAND, from several places in Devonshire:—By Mr. ELIOT, from Liskeard: —By Lord BRABAZON, from Carnew:—By Mr. BORRODALE, from Newcastle. By Lord LOWTHER, from the Land-owners of a parish in Westmoreland, for an amend-
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ment of the Tithe Laws. For the repeal of the Duties on Sea-borne Coals, by Mr. WALPOLE, from King's Lynn, Norfolk:—By Sir W. FOULKES, from Diss, in Norfolk:— By Mr. WM. DONCOMBE, from Whidley:—By Sir THOS. ACLAND, from Torquay, and several other places in Devonshire.

The hon. Baronet, in presenting these petitions, said, that he would, if the Ministers did not, make a motion for the repeal of the tax on the 8th of March.
By Mr. ROBINSON, from two Electors of Liverpool, against the return of Mr. Ewart, on the grounds, at we understood, of bribery and corruption. For the extension of the Galway Franchise, by Sir F. BLAKE, from certain Merchants of Galway:—By Mr. LAMBERT, from certain Inhabitants of Galway. Against the Kildare-street Society, by Mr. FERENCH, from Tibbereen. By Mr. LAMBERT, from Ballinasloe, Belvedere, and four other places. By the same hon. Member, from Belvedere, for the repeal of the Union.

BOROUGH OF EVESHAM ELECTION.
Mr. E. B. Clivereported, from the Evesham Election committee, that the sitting Members, Sir C. Cockerell and Archibald, Lord Kennedy, had not been duly elected, and that the petition against their return was neither frivolous nor vexatious. He further stated, that the Committee had come to the following Resolution, which he had been ordered to report to the House,—" That it is the opinion of this Committee, after hearing the evidence which has been laid before it, that Sir C. Cockerell, has, by his agent or agents, been guilty of bribery and corruption at the last election for the borough of Evesham, and that it is also the opinion of this Committee, that Archibald Kennedy, commonly called Lord Kennedy, has, by his agent or agents, been guilty of bribery and corruption at the same said election."
The Report ordered to he on the Table.
Mr. Clivemoved, that a new writ should be issued for the election of two burgesses to serve in the present Parliament for the borough of Evesham.
Mr. A. Duncombesaid, that having been a member of that Committee, he thought it his duty to move, that the evidence which had been taken before it should be laid before the House. He was no friend to general reform; but he certainly thought that some proceedings should be taken in this instance, and! he should therefore move to that effect.
The Speakerinformed the hon. Member, that the motion for a new writ must be first disposed of, before the House could entertain such a motion.
The motion for the issuing of a new writ was accordingly put and agreed to.
Mr. Duncombewas then about to move

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that the evidence should be laid before the House, when the Speaker interposed, and observed, that the House must, in the first instance, fix a day for taking the Report of the Committee into consideration. Accordingly, on the motion of Mr. Clive, the Report was ordered to be taken into further consideration on Thursday next.
Mr. A. Duncombethen moved, that the evidence taken before the Evesham Election committee should be laid before the House.
Mr. Clivesaid, that as Chairman of the committee, he felt it his duty to state, that the committee had come to a very proper resolution; at the same time, as we had now got an Administration which had determined to take the cause of reform into its own hands, he did not think that there would be any necessity for taking ulterior proceedings upon the evidence laid before the committee; and he trusted that the hon. Member would pause before he put the country to the expense of having it printed.
Lord G. Lennox Lord G. Lennox, as a member of that committee, felt called upon to say, that though he was no reformer in the large way, he conceived that this being a case in which bribery and corruption had been undeniably proved, it was the duty of the House to look into it. He therefore trusted that his hon. friend would persevere in his motion, and that when the evidence was laid before the House, that hon. Members would read it. If it should appear from that evidence that the electors of Evesham had been bought at 12 l. a head, it struck him that it would be a proper question for the consideration of the House whether they should be allowed to retain their franchise.
Motion agreed to.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Mr. Kennedy Mr. Kennedy, in rising to present Petitions from several parts of Scotland, praying for Reform in Parliament, took occasion to say, that nothing could be more unfounded than the assertion that had recently passed current, namely, that the people of Scotland were indifferent on the subject of Reform. The petitions which he had then to present most completely falsified that assertion. The first which be brought up was from the Provost, Magistrates, and Town Council of the Burgh of Ayr. The next was from the prin-
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cipal merchants and other inhabitants of Ayr; then followed petitions from the nine Incorporated Trades of that town; from Kirkcudbright; from the Merchants of the city of Edinburgh; all praying for Reform. All these petitions also prayed for Burgh Reform, and the hon. Member begged to assure the House that the desire for Reform was universal in Scotland.
They were severally laid upon the Table.

TRUCK-SYSTEM.
Sir R. Peelsaid, he had three Petitions to present on a subject of very considerable importance. The first was from Walsall, the second from the manufacturing districts of Gloucestershire, and the third, which was signed by 14,000 persons, from Bolton; and the petitioners prayed the House to take the necessary steps for putting a stop to the practice which prevailed in those districts, and which was rapidly extending, of paying wages in goods instead of money. They objected to the system on three grounds—first, because it gave an advantage to the manufacturer who paid in goods over him who paid in money; secondly, because it injured the retail dealer; and thirdly, because it tended to degrade the working classes. If the Legislature suffered the system to continue, it could not refuse to allow the workman who received his wages in goods to pay rates and taxes in the same materials. The practice was also very disadvantageous to the poor man, as it precluded him from the power of saving any thing whatever. In the justice of the allegations of the petitions he perfectly concurred; and he certainly should support the measure which would shortly be introduced to the House to eradicate this evil.
Mr. Cresset Pelhambelieved, that much of the distress of the manufacturing districts arose from this system, and he should certainly support the motion of the hon. member for Staffordshire.
Sir Horace St. Paulsaid, that as a friend to the people, he also would support the measure of the hon. member for Staffordshire, for prohibiting the truck system, to which, he was convinced, much of the distress of the working classes was to be attributed.
Mr. Humewas glad to find that the hon. Member had become the friend of the people. It was an extraordinary circumstance, for he believed that the hon.

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Member had never given one vote to relieve the public from taxation, to which the distress of the country was mainly to be attributed. On the contrary, he had for twelve long years voted for every sort of extravagant expense which was proposed in that House. He denied that the truck-system had such a mischievous tendency as had been ascribed to it; and he was perfectly sure, that if the bill alluded to passed into a law, it would dry up one source of employment, and would add to the distress, instead of decreasing it. There could be no stronger proof that the truck-system did not cause the distress, than the fact, that distress and even disturbance existed to an alarming degree where the truck-system was not known; as for example, in Kent, Sussex and Essex. He was determined at all hazards to oppose the bill of the hon. Member as directly contrary to all the principles of free-trade, though he should not have made any observations at that time if the remarks of the right hon. Baronet had not tended to prejudge the question.
Sir Horace St. Paulcomplained of the personalities of the hon. member for Middlesex. He could tell him that his parliamentary conduct had been as conscientious and as upright as that of the hon. Member. The course which he pursued was, he believed, as useful to the people, and tended as much to improve their comforts, as that of the hon. Member.
Lord Belgravehoped, that the master manufacturers would themselves adopt a liberal system for the benefit of the people.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanexpressed his concurrence in the sentiments of the right hon. Baronet; but he would not then enter into the subject, as it would be fully discussed to-morrow. If the Bill were inconsistent with the principles of free-trade, that was in his eyes a great recommendation, for free-trade was very injurious.
Mr. Littletonfelt obliged to his right hon. friend for the observations he had made. His opinion would have great weight, because he was sure that he had not formed it rashly. He would not enter into the subject then, as it. would be fully discussed to-morrow. The measure which he intended to introduce differed materially from that which he brought forward last year.
Mr. Tennantstated, that he was opposed
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to this injurious system of truck, but he was afraid that the hon. member for Stafford shire, in making a law to abolish it, would prevent the workman from the opportunity of making; the best bargain for himself that he could. He earnestly hoped, however, that some remedy for the evil might be found.
Petitions to be printed.

THE NEW METROPOLITAN POLICE.
Sir R. Peelpresented a Petition from St. John's, Hampstead, expressing approbation of the New Police, but praying that there might be some reduction of the expense. The right hon. Baronet also presented a Petition from the inhabitants of Deptford, which bore important testimony to the public advantage of the new police. It would be admitted that nothing could be more important than that property should receive sufficient protection in such a town as Deptford. The petitioners stated, that before the establishment of the new police, Deptford had no public watchmen. It had some watchmen paid by private individuals; and the petitioners stated, that during that time burglaries were committed almost nightly; but that since the new police had been established, there had been only two attempts at burglaries, in one of which the burglars were taken almost on the spot. One of the great objections urged to the present system was its great increase of expense; and on that part of the case he begged the House to suspend its judgment until the committee for which he should move after the recess should have had time to examine and make its report. The hon. member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume), who from the station he held must be considered as a high authority on local matters relating to the county, had stated that in the parish of Poplar, the rate of watching had been raised under the new police from 1,450 l. to 5,540 l. The hon. Member was correct as to the figures, but it should be known that a great part of that increase arose from these circumstances—that the West India Docks and part of the East-India Docks were included in that parish—that those Docks paid for their own watching before the new police were established, but that since then they consented to be rated for the new police, the commissioners having undertaken the charge of watching them. This made the increase appear so great, and though in figures, as it was

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stated, there appeared this great increase on the whole parish, the fact was, that a very great portion of it is to be paid by the Docks. This showed the necessity of hearing both sides of a case before a decision was pronounced. He had no doubt that in other cases explanations equally satisfactory would be given when they came to be inquired into.
Mr. Humesaid, that the petition from the parish in question had been presented by his hon. colleague. He had no disposition to exaggerate anything against the new police, for it was well known that he differed from those who objected to that system. In the statement he had made he only gave the information which was communicated to him by a deputation from the parish. He admitted that a committee would be the most effectual mode of deciding as to the real cause of the increase of expense.
Mr. Wilkssaid, that in one parish, with nearly 18,000 inhabitants, the addition of a rate of 8d. for the new police was found so oppressive that the collectors could not collect even the ordinary rates.
Sir R. Peelsaid, that a parish of such extent, and number of inhabitants, must have paid some rate for watching before, so that the whole rate of 8d. could not be an additional expense.
Petitions to he on the Table.

WEST-INDIA COLONIES—SLAVERY.
The Marquis of Chandossaid, he had been intrusted with a Petition from the West-India planters and others interested in property in the West Indies. The petition, he observed, was one of very considerable importance. The petitioners stated, that they had acquired their property in the West Indies under the sanction of the laws, the same as all other classes of his Majesty's subjects, and they very justly complained of the outcry which was raised against them, and the manner in which petitions were got up in London, and sent down to different parts of the country, on this subject. The petitioners prayed that the House, in any measures it might adopt on the subject of colonial slavery, would not act with injustice to themselves and their fellow-colonists, but that any measure to be adopted should be on the principle of the fullest compensation for any loss or depreciation of property it might occasion. The noble Lord observed that he was as favourable to the
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principle of the abolition of slavery as any man, but he would not listen to those clamours which were raised in favour of the abolition without any reference to the interests of those who might be affected by it. The condition of the colonists was one which called for relief. They had last year asked for some reduction, but had got much less than they were entitled to; but they still looked with confidence to large reductions in the duties on coffee, rum, and sugars, and he earnestly hoped, from the manly candour and sincerity of the noble Lord (Althorp), that the serious attention of Government would be called to this subject.
Mr. Marryatsupported the prayer of the petition, and was understood to deprecate the manner in which the colonists had been attacked, and the inconsiderate demand which had been made for immediate abolition, without reference to the interests of those whose whole property it involved. He complained of the outcry that had been raised in the country against the West-Indian proprietors, and the attempt that there was, to force the House into a conclusion on the subject; in illustration of which, he mentioned a petition that had been presented from some congregation, by a noble Lord, on the 4th of November, which spoke of the impropriety of suffering traffickers in human flesh to hold a seat in that House, where they appeared like Satan seated among the sons of God, and which called on Parliament to grant no compensation to men that dealt in human blood. A crusade had, in fact, been preached in the names of Christianity and humanity, against what some gentlemen called the accursed horrors of the West-India Islands. They said, that the West-Indians were men who were the receivers of stolen property, knowing it to be stolen, and that viewing this, they could not help burning with a holy indignation. But these holy persons themselves were wishing to do what they decried—namely, rob others of their property; were preaching these doctrines at the risk of exciting insurrection, and were so determined against giving a fair hearing to one party, that they declared they could not give credit to any one who had been contaminated by breathing the air of a slave-colony. It was true that Christianity forbade slavery, but it was equally true that its doctrines forbade their letting loose a large slave-population, the in-

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evitable consequence of which must be a general massacre. Besides which, he contended, that, without taking into consideration the impossibility of compensation, slavery, as it now existed in its mitigated form in the West Indies, was a much less evil than the risk which would follow any alteration. There always must be evil in the world, and he was afraid that the attempts to get rid of it by violence and suddenly, only confirmed its dominion and extended its sway. He hoped, therefore, the House would not take any step on this subject without well considering the condition of the colonist and also that of the slave-population; and whether that condition would be improved by immediate abolition. He was willing to go hand in hand with those who would improve the condition of the slave; but he deprecated any measure of violent interference.
Mr. Briscoewas convinced that the general question of Slave Emancipation must very soon be forced on the attention of his Majesty's Ministers, and it was desirable that such a question should be settled, not only by a vote of that House, but with the consent of the West-India proprietors, and under the sanction of his Majesty's Government. The petitions which he had seen against slavery rested their claims on the highest 'vantage ground; they designated slavery as a crime disgraceful to man, and they dwelt on the moral and mental degradation of the slave. These petitions had likewise additional weight by having affixed to them the signatures of clergymen of all denominations, who held that it was revolting to Christianity that it should be argued that slaves, were private property, and therefore must not be meddled with. He had looked at the subject with much patient attention, and he was convinced that the time was come when the Parliament must take the matter in hand, and decide that the slave should be set free.
Mr. Long Wellesleysaid, that of all the questions which could come before the House, this was one of the most important. He concurred in much of what he had heard from the hon. Members on both sides of this subject, for he fully admitted the principle that slavery ought to be abolished, being fully impressed that it was directly opposed to the principles of Christianity; but he at the same time admitted, that in any measure which Parliament might be disposed to adopt with respect to the
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abolition of slavery, due regard should be had to the interests of the colonists, so as to give them full and entire compensation. He sincerely hoped, that the subject would engage the serious consideration of Government. After all he had heard on this subject, he was convinced that colonial slavery could not be abolished by a single vote of Parliament. Before that, it would be the duty of the House to enter into an inquiry into the whole of our colonial policy, as, in his opinion, it wanted revision. He wished to be distinctly understood as abating nothing of his hostility to slavery; but he thought the most effectual mode of bringing that desirable object about would be, an entire change in the system of our colonial policy.
Mr. Keith Douglashad one word to add to the observations which had been made by his noble friend, or he should not have otherwise thought it necessary to call the attention of the House and the Government to the subject. The petition presented by his noble friend was signed by gentlemen of great respectability—of as great respectability as any gentlemen in the House; and the great object of the petitioners was, to implore the House, if it granted emancipation, as that would destroy all slave property, to grant the West-India proprietors compensation. It further prayed, that the House would institute an inquiry into the whole state of society in the West Indies. Before the House did emancipate the slave, inquiry certainly would be necessary, by fair and competent judges, if it were only to ascertain what amount of compensation should be granted to his master. His Majesty's Ministers were probably not disposed to grant inquiry, as they were generally men who rested their claim to the confidence of the country by acting on this point in conformity to the sentiments of the people. He must, however, say, that he hoped from their general candour that they would not bow to the popular prejudices, that they would look at the question with coolness and impartiality, and that, aware of all its difficulties, they would treat it with a view of doing justice to all parties, and giving the country at large confidence in their decision. They would not listen, he was sure, only to the representations of the over-zealous partizans of either side, with whom the country was now inundated, and

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they would regard the question with the feelings of strict neutrality between the planters and the advocates of the abolition. Former Governments had done that, and had not hurried on the decision. They had not, however, taken on themselves as they ought, the responsibility of settling this question. They had not always stood neuter, but they had stood aloof, giving the discussions an air of a squabble between rival parties. Sometimes they had thrown themselves into the scale of the abolitionists, forgetting that they were bound to protect the property and trade of the West-India Islands. It was said of the West-India proprietors, that they had no feelings like other men, and that, if their slaves were emancipated, they could obtain free labour in the West Indies. This latter assertion, however, was disproved by experience. People who made that assertion did not consider what was the basis and compact of the West-Indian Society. It was that two or three white persons should rule over a great multitude of slaves. Those slaves were the only labourers on the estates, and the others were the proprietors. There were in that state of society no intervening links between the master and the slave, no connexions between these extreme points, such as were found in other communities. Those who urged forward emancipation, had but a very imperfect acquaintance, with the state of society in the West Indies, and their zeal would only excite irritation, and, if followed up, bring on the dissolution of society in those islands. Such conduct would not be beneficial to the islands, and he thought he did his duty by adhering to the laws of the country and to the present system of West-Indian society. If society there were to be dissolved, all property would be destroyed, industry would stop, all trade would be at an end, and all the shipping now engaged in it would be annihilated at once. How would humanity —how would justice be served by that? Would that benefit the African? He believed not. It would transfer our trade to other countries. The people here would not cease to use sugar, and to supply their consumption we should import largely from the Brazils and Cuba, where sugar was cultivated by slaves. Thus we should ruin our own possessions, annihilate the property of our own subjects, and transfer our trade in sugar to countries over which
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we had no control. He had carefully looked at the petitions which had been presented to the House, and of 2,600, the amount of them, 2,200 had proceeded from the Dissenters, sixty only from the Established Church of England and Scotland, and the remainder from the community at large. All these petitions proceeded on one principle—they declared, that man could not be the property of man, and therefore they demanded the immediate abolition of slavery. But these petitioners forgot that the compact of society there was different from what it was here, and that that compact, as it existed there, kept up the distinction between masters and slaves. He did not know by what original or natural right—by what else, in short, but by the compact of society, one man here was in possession of 150,000 l. a year, while 2,000 or 3,000 labourers did not share as much amongst them. Some men here were in possession of large fortunes, while others laboured excessively for 5s. or 6s. a week. Was that, he would ask, natural and just? Was it more natural and more to be honoured, than that men were the property of men in the West Indies; or how could it be reconciled to reason except on the principle on which the West Indians defended their property—that it was the settled and organized form of society. What was it but the compact of society which gave the Duke of Devonshire a right to his property? Might not his servant say, in digging his garden, that he did it for himself, and not for him, and that the Duke had no right to the produce? In the West Indies the compact was different; and if the landed proprietor in England was bound to defer to the rights of the labourers, in the West Indies, the proprietor was bound to look after the welfare of his slaves, to make them comfortable and promote their improvement. The advocates of emancipation justified their demands on abstract rights, and on the principles of Christianity, but surely, if these were pushed to the extreme, they would not strengthen the right of property here, or would the state of society be found much more consistent with them in Europe than in the West Indies. He was far from wishing to advocate such extreme views, but neither did he desire to be their victim, and he cautioned gentlemen to be careful how they pushed their principles to the furthest point. What he thought should be done before emanci-

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pation was granted was, to inquire closely into the state of the colonies. For example, the Established Church of England was perhaps little suited to the colonies; and it would be wise to inquire if the Church of Scotland, as there were many persons belonging to that Church in the islands, might not be extended in them. Already some Commissioners had been sent to inquire into the state of Judicature in the Islands, and that inquiry ought to be pursued. The agitation of the question had already had considerable influence over the return of Members to that House, for, in many cases, it had been urged as a reason for opposing candidates, that they were connected with the West India interest. He wished for a Reform in Parliament to a certain extent; but he must aver, that a Reform would be most mischievous if it would prevent the Members from deliberating freely and fairly on the affairs of the country. In the present case, some of the Members were sent to Parliament pledged to vote for emancipation, and they had given those pledges to secure their election. If the influence of the people were to be carried to that extent, Reform would not be a blessing but a curse.
Lord Morpethwould not have said one word, if it had not been for some of the observations of the last hon. Members. Something had been said about "Swing;" but that gentleman's efforts were not to be justified by the exertions of the people of England to relieve the slaves. The slaves of the West Indies were the property of their masters; the labourers of England were the property of no man. The relations which took place in this country between landlord and labourer were the consequences of an unalterable state of society, and depended on principles that everywhere prevailed. The slavery in the West Indies was founded on an original wrong, which was yet unredressed, which was, in fact, in its consequences yet in full operation. It was founded in Acts of Parliament utterly repugnant to the sentiments of right and wrong implanted in the heart of man. The Bible said that there should be always poor in the land; but it nowhere said, that there should be always slaves. On the contrary, it gave reason to believe that slavery should be extinguished. He was aware, and had always said, that there was exaggeration on the side of the
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emancipationists; but exaggeration on their side was not more mischievous than concealment on the other. For his part, he wished for nothing more than that the question should be decided after impartial consideration.
Mr. Macauleysaid, if the petitioners who asked for compensation, and if the noble Marquis who presented the petition, and the hon. Member who spoke last but one, had confined themselves to the subject of compensation, he should not have thought it necessary to say one word on the subject. He thought—he believed the public also thought—that compensation ought to be given. He agreed with the noble Lord and the hon. Gentleman, and he agreed, too, with the petitioners, that whenever slavery was extinguished, all the loss of property which might arise should be made good by the Government. He agreed in this opinion, not because he agreed with what fell from the hon. member for Dumfries, which, by the by, he did not understand, about the compact of society He did not see from that species of metaphysical argument how protection for property was necessary; but it was found by experience that it was bad for men that property should not be secured, and that great inconvenience resulted from violating property, and on that ground, it was said, that men ought to have their property protected. After the public had declared, by Acts of Parliament, that men should be property, after they, had been bought and sold, deposited as pledges, and made to answer for dowers, great inconvenience would result from taking away that species of property, and the masters and owners ought to be compensated. He declared, that he thought, in common with most of those who petitioned the House, that slavery ought to be extinguished; but he and the petitioners all contemplated, on its extinction, giving a reasonable compensation to the masters of slaves. If, therefore, the noble Lord and the hon. Gentleman had confined themselves to compensation, which he admitted was just, he should not have said one word on the subject; but they had mingled other matters with that which he always wished to see separated from it. He agreed that exaggeration could not do any good, and he regretted, as much as the noble Lord and the hon. member for Dumfries, that cither anger or exaggeration should have been displayed on

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either side. It was a charge against the petitions for the abolition, that they were all got up under the influence of the Anti-Slavery Society. The petitions were got up under that influence—was that extraordinary? Who should inform the people of England, busily employed in their own domestic occupations, of what occurred in the West Indies, if some such Society did not undertake the task? But the influence the Society possessed was over the public mind. It had no other. It appealed to the public reason. It had no monopoly of the public Press. Its reports and proceedings were open to cavil and objection. The periodical literature was as much in the hands of the West Indians as their opponents. Magazines and Reviews were on their side; of celebrated works, he believed that The Quarterly Review had always been in their favour. He did not believe that there was one of those periodical publications which were most read—he meant the newspapers— he did not believe that there was one of the London newspapers that was fully and completely on the side of the abolitionists. The organs of the West India body were as numerous as those of the other side, and their funds were at least equal to those of the Anti-Slavery society. It was not long ago that the West India body gave as much to one writer as the Anti-Slavery Society received and employed in a year. The fact was, that the West India body was in the wrong. All men were active to embrace the opposite opinions. They had been progressively gaining ground, and all the efforts of the West-Indians had failed to stem the tide of public opinion. They had been trying since 1802, and were carried further and further away every year from their object. The public feeling since that time had ebbed and flowed somewhat, but, on the whole, it had been much strengthened. After every ebb it had only run upwards with double vigour. It required that slavery should be abolished; it required, in the interest of the West-Indians themselves, as well as in the interest of the slaves, and in the interest of the country generally, that the question should be brought to a speedy conclusion, and that the slaves should be emancipated. The petitions, it was said, were violent; but, though nobody supposed violence was good, what good cause had escaped being disfigured
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by violence? The Christian religion itself at its origin was disfigured by many pious frauds, and fanatics then abounded. Such was the case, too, at the Reformation, and much violence was instrumental in bringing it to a conclusion. For his part, he did not charge the West-India body with the calumny that was uttered against the abolitionists. The body, he knew, contained many honourable men, who were free from all suspicion of such a charge, and who scouted as much as any honourable men could, those people who lived by slander and traded in violent abuse, and in whom the ideas of calumny and their dinner were inseparably associated. He would do justice to the West-Indians, and let them do justice to their opponents. Let neither party recriminate any longer. Let them all consider the matter like statesmen and legislators. Let them ask themselves, was there any evil, and was there a remedy for it? Were they the people who ought to apply the remedy, and was this the time? If this were the time, and they were the people, he would implore them to apply the remedy. He saw that there were many difficulties in the way of it; but he thought those difficulties would readily vanish if the subject were taken up by statesmen of a capacious intellect and resolute heart. The statesmen who had lately taken office were of that character: in them he had great confidence, and he had no doubt that they would bring forward the question in a proper manner. When it was brought forward, he, for one, wished that it should be with a view to extinguish the system of slavery; but he wished it brought forward carefully, with temperance, avoiding all causes of irritation, and all violence of language; he wished the question looked at as a whole, and that it should be discussed with a sincere desire to come to a calm and deliberate decision, and to do every interest justice.
Mr. Bernalcomplimented the last hon. Member on the tone and temper of his speech, and expressed a wish that every other discussion on the subject should be carrried on in the same calm and temperate manner. All parties wished, he believed, that calumny should be put down; at least, he was sure that the West Indians did. That was the language, also, of the petition presented to-night, which prayed that the Legislature would not interfere

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without inquiry. The West Indians courted inquiry. They had always done so; but if they had a bad cause, they would shun inquiry. The hon. Member who spoke last underrated, he believed, the difficulties of the task. There was the interest of this country to be considered— the interest of the West Indians—and there was also the interest of the negroes themselves; they could not be let loose like paupers. There was no Poor-law in the West Indies; and if the slaves were removed from the authority and control of their masters, whose interest and duty it was to make them comfortable, what would they do? The West Indians might complain of being much misrepresented in this country, where they were held up to odium as torturing their slaves. Nothing could be more untrue. The question had been in abeyance for several years, but was now revived. He did ample justice to the benevolent motives of the gentlemen he saw around him, but there was a good deal of exaggeration prevalent out of doors, which had been caused by a few over-zealous persons In opposition to this statement, he would assure the House, that the West-India proprietors would readily co-operate with the Legislature in giving relief to the slave, and promoting his improvement by all possible means.
Mr. Ewartacquiesced in the sentiments which fell from his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Macauley). They did equal honour to his philosophical mind and to the strong love of truth and justice for which he was distinguished. He felt himself called on to say, that in the great town which he most unworthily, he was afraid, represented, the first wish of the great West-India merchants and proprietors was, that inquiry should be established, and that the truth should be displayed to the satisfaction of every man in the community. The next was, that if it were determined by the wisdom of the Legislature that an early emancipation should take place, then they wished that compensation should be given, and they looked on that as an inseparable condition. He and they both wished for gradual emancipation, as consistent with the great' principle of liberty, and the proper care of the rights of property. He was convinced that gradual emancipation was alone consistent with sound policy and the principles of humanity. He would use on the
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subject the language of Virgil, as it had been applied by Mr. Pitt, in 1792, to the gradual civilization of Africa.
—" nos primus equis oriens afflavit anhelis,
Illic sera rubens accendit lumina Vesper."
Mr. Fowell Buxtonwould not have troubled the House, but for some observations which had fallen from the former speakers. The hon. member for Liverpool, as well as the other hon. Members, wanted inquiry; but what would be the effect of inquiry; why interminable delay? If they were to institute inquiry—if they were to send out that roving Commission which had bean spoken of, then to every proposition for meliorating the condition of the slave they would be told to stop till the Commission had reported—till the inquiry was completed; and they would stop till public feeling was cooled and deadened, and then they would stop for ever. It was a suspicious circumstance that inquiry was now demanded; and why was it not heretofore demanded? If, indeed, inquiry had begun ten years ago, at the instance of the West-Indians, there might now be some hope of reform. He formerly had proposed inquiry, and for that, much odium was thrown on him. The country was satisfied by the official documents already published. The business of the Government was, to put an end to slavery: that was what the country demanded, and it demanded that the abolition should be accomplished with the least, possible injury to the West-Indian masters, and the greatest possible benefit to the slaves. He had heard it observed out of doors, that the question of compensation was now insisted upon, not merely for the sake of the compensation, but as an insuperable obstacle to the abolition. If the West-Indian body came to the House with that disposition; if the planters said, that the Government must pay them 140 millions sterling; if they made such a demand, it would be plain that they did not wish for compensation —they wished to prevent abolition. In the speculations which were made on this subject, there was one party entirely overlooked to whom compensation was due; the slaves were entitled to compensation. He admitted that if the planters were injured—he always had admitted—that they ought to be compensated by the British Government; but it was forgotten that the right claimed over the slave was founded in an abominable crime. The

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planters said, that if the slaves were to be emancipated they must be compensated; but if he approved of the planters being compensated, was he to give nothing to the slave? If he approved of the merchant being compensated for the loss of his trade, was he to give no compensation to that living merchandize which was made the object of this traffic? The only inquiry, he thought, which ought to be made, was an inquiry into the best and shortest way of putting an end to slavery. The question of compensation was always treated as between the British Government and the planter; but there was a third party. It was said, that the Government must give compensation to the planters, the guilty party; while the third party, the innocent and suffering party—the slaves—were to be entirely overlooked. It was most unjust, to say that the guilty party—that the planters, who would not do justice to their slaves—that they were to be relieved, while the slaves, the innocent and suffering party, were to be denied justice. He hoped that the question of compensation would be brought forward, but brought forward only when slavery was to be put an end to. He hoped that the question would be brought forward with a view that slavery might be extinguished peaceably; that was for the interest of the West-Indians themselves, and if that were not done they could not be saved from one wide-spread ruin.
Colonel Sibthorpobserved, that the hon. Member opposed inquiry as useless, and said, that the people of England were satisfied; but would that be the case when the Chancellor of the Exchequer called on them to contribute a large tax to pay the compensation? He protested against the House and the country being led away by the statements published in the Anti-Slavery Society's Reports, of which not more than one word in every five thousand was worthy of belief. He was disposed to grant emancipation when they were fairly prepared to compensate the planters for their loss; but before they determined on taking such a course, he thought it would be right to ascertain from what source of taxation the amount of the compensation was to be drawn.
Sir George Murray: In consideration of what I owe to the office which I held under the late Government of his Majesty, as well as in consideration of what I owe to my own character, I trust the House
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will pardon me for offering a few observations on this subject, and in reply to one or two expressions which have fallen from hon. Members opposite. If I rightly understood the language of the hon. member for Dumfries (Mr. K. Douglas) he charges the lute Government with not having displayed sufficient activity in its operations towards the accomplishment of the emancipation of the slaves in our West-India Colonies. Sir, I have always supposed, until this moment, that to abstain from any extraordinary activity in the measures to be carried into effect with respect to the Colonies was a merit rather than a defect; and that it was the duty of the Government, and the wish of the Legislature, that the Ministers should deprecate every course which would have the effect of calling the angry passions of the rival parties into play, or of exciting those premature expectations among the black population which they had so often heard described as likely to lead to calamitous consequences. My earnest endeavour, during; the whole of the time it became my official duty to deal with the interests of the Colonies, was, to take what may be called a common-sense view of the subject. I endeavoured to abstain, as much as possible, from enlisting the powers of the Government on behalf of any of the parties who press this subject on the attention of the Legislature. I neither lent myself to those whose views seemed to be directed towards the accomplishment of their objects without any regard to the interests of others, and who sought only the gratification of their natural feelings—nor to those who would have gone blindly on, under the influence of passion and enthusiasm, excited by their sense of the condition of the slave—nor to those who took advantage of that enthusiasm to accomplish purposes purely interested, and who made it a theme for popular eloquence; but I laboured to consider it solely with reference to the great and unchangeable principles of justice and of real humanity. In the hands of the Government I always conceived it right that the execution of any measures of the Legislature should be left. Government was, in my opinion, situated in the most favourable position for carrying into effect those measures which were to pave the way for the entire abolition of slavery, (for, short of its total abolition, I never contemplated the possibility of stopping), and in its hands I

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endeavoured to preserve the execution of the wishes of the Legislature, because I felt that Government alone was capable of looking at the question, and carrying the resolutions of the people of this country into effect, with that degree of calmness, temperance, and impartiality which was requisite to ensure safety to all parties, and at the same time to render the black population itself capable of enjoying and appreciating the benefit which was to be bestowed on them. The hon. member for Dumfries has alluded to the peasantry of an English nobleman, in support of his argument, as if there could be any comparison between the man who enjoys the blessings of freedom and the slave; as if there could be any parallel drawn between the being who writhes under the lash of the driver, in hopeless and interminable bondage, and the freeman who, whatever may be the poverty or misery of his present condition, has it in his power, by industry, temperance, and good conduct, to raise himself, and, in point of fact, frequently does raise himself, in this land of liberty, to the highest station in the State, and to rank among the mightiest and wealthiest of its Peers. The hon. member for Dumfries seems also to intimate, that the system of judicature in the West Indies has been too much neglected by the late Government. It is very true, that all has not been done which was supposed necessary; but it is, unfortunately, not so easy to cast recommendations into the proper form as some persons imagine. l can say, however, with some confidence, that regulations for the improvement of the Judicature in the Colonies arc now about to be established, under the orders of the late Government, in all the Colonies of the West Indies; and they have been already carried into effect in every colony under the immediate control of the Crown. The hon. Member has also referred to the state of the Church Establishment in the Colonies. I confess I did not feel myself called on to make any alteration on that subject. My object, during the time of my connection with the Colonies, was, to give full and complete liberty to all sects, and to curb as much as possible that spirit of intolerance which was unhappily too prevalent, and which was inconsistent with the laws of this country, and of the Colonies, and at variance with the liberal opinions of the age. With respect to the appointment of the Commission of Inquiry,
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I see no good it could possibly produce, except delay; and I believe the Parliament and the country require no delay except that which is justified by a sound judgment, prudence, and caution, which will so modify the extent and manner of interference as to prevent its producing evils more injurious than any which now exist. The question of compensation has been much insisted on in the course of this discussion. I think that nothing can be more proper, just, politic, and necessary, than that the planters of the West Indies should receive compensation for the loss they are likely to sustain by the emancipation of the negroes; but I confess I am at a loss to understand what good purpose is to be answered, even by giving compensation, if it is to be given with immediate emancipation. Immediate emancipation, such as some of the more enthusiastic in this country require, would, without those measures which are necessary to prepare the mind of the negro for the change, merely afford a sanction to the commission of murder, and an encouragement to the most dreadful scenes of plunder and devastation. Compensation I think the planters should receive; but if we grant immediate emancipation to those who are at this moment in the ignorance of bondage, and who are totally unprepared for the enjoyment of liberty, whether we pay their owners or do not pay them we shall most assuredly bring on confusion and disorder throughout the Colonies; give a license to rapine and licentiousness; rend asunder all the bonds of society, and make the estates of the planter a scene of ruin and desolation. I beg the House to excuse me for having said so much on this subject at the present moment; but I felt it necessary to trespass on its attention, in justification of the views I entertain on these questions, and in justification also of the views of that Government to which I had lately the honour to belong.
Mr. K. Douglasdenied, that he meant to impute any blame to the right hon. Gentleman, or to the Government. He had only wished to assert, that the Government was bound to protect the property of the West-Indians. The right hon. Baronet had misunderstood his observations as to the slaves and labourers here. He had put that case hypothetically.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, it was impossible to overrate the enormous difficulties of the

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question presented to the House, or to avoid feeling how much danger there was in the discussion, and how much mischief might be produced by the use of hasty and unguarded expressions. He thought the House could not be too cautious in this respect, and he implored the Members to abstain from any language of recrimination or exaggeration, and from raising expectations in the minds of the black population of the Colonies which must prove eventually beyond their power to realise. What was at that moment passing in every part of the world must teach them the danger of tampering with such subjects, and he conjured them to take care that, while they were extending instruction, they did not also give expectations of speedy benefits which it would not be in their power to confer, and raise expectations of advantages which would prove wholly illusory. He was sorry to observe that the hon. member for Weymouth (Mr. F. Buxton) had made use of expressions totally at variance with those of the hon. and learned member for Calne (Mr. Macauley). The hon. Member had told them, that there was a third party, independent of the Government, and independent of the slave or of his master, whose interests and wishes must be consulted, and who had a right to be heard by the Legislature, and a claim on its attention, which could not be postponed. If, therefore, they were prepared to postpone the final settlement for a single day, the effects might be mischievous under such circumstances. Unless they were prepared to dissolve the traffic in this living merchandise on the instant—and who could say that they were?—he intreated them to be cautious of making use of expressions which could only irritate the passions, and might lead to incalculable mischief. Could any man, however, who listened to the speeches of the hon. member for Weymouth, close his eyes to the difficulties of the question? The hon. member for Calne admitted in the fullest manner that there must be compensation made to the planters. If their claim to compensation were admitted, what was to be its amount? Was the country to recompense the owner for the direct loss he would sustain in his slave, or from the consequential loss he must suffer in his property and plantations? These were grave and serious questions to be decided before they came to the point of emancipation; and then, supposing
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that eighty millions would be required for the purpose, were they prepared at once to demand that sum from the people of this country? Supposing, however, that emancipation was determined, and that compensation was to be granted, what security had they that the Colonies would not be involved, before they could carry it into effect, in a general conflagration? Did they consider the consequences of suddenly making such an alteration in the existing state of society? Could they, when the slave was emancipated, secure the control of the planter over him as a freeman? When the planter received compensation for his property, all desire to remain in the colony—all stimulus to watch over its interests would be taken away from him. The Aristocracy—if he might make use of such an expression— would leave the colony, having no inducement to remain. There would be no link by which society could be held together— there would be no Magistracy—no power by which wrong was to be punished, or right secured; and the Colonies would present a scene of civil war and a succession of barbarous conflicts, unmitigated by any of those checks which, in the civilized portion of the world, were found to soften the horrors of the fiercest party hostility. These were a portion of the evils which might flow from an indulgence of intemperance of expression, or from a too hasty compliance with the claims of the abolitionists. He only entreated them to pause until they could fairly approach the evils which they all ardently desired to see mitigated, but which never could be effectually dealt with unless they looked not more at the pecuniary rights of individuals, than at that which was of even much greater importance—the permanent welfare of the slave.
Lord Althorpfully agreed with the right hon. Baronet on the importance of the question, and the difficulties which attended its full consideration. While he agreed with the hon. Baronet and the other Members who had spoken on the subject, that the total emancipation of the slave should take place at the earliest possible period, he also agreed with them that every exertion should be made to render the negro worthy of the station to which he would be raised, and capable of appreciating the full benefits of emancipation. He thought it, therefore, of the utmost importance, that no means should be neg-

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lected to improve their morals, and to extend among them the advantages of education, so that they might become fit to receive with safety all the advantages of liberty. He was fully prepared to acknowledge, that the sudden emancipation of the slaves would be productive of great evils to the slaves themselves, and that the masters would not be able to preserve over them that control which was necessary for the preservation of the public tranquillity; but it was, therefore, the more necessary that the measures determined on by Parliament to improve the morals of the slave-population, and to better their condition, should be rigidly and generally enforced. He thought it necessary to say thus much, that the opinions of the Government on the question might not be misunderstood.
Mr. O'Connellcontended strongly against granting compensation to the slave-owners, and deprecated the language used in the course of the debate. It was as much as to say, that the wrongs of the slaves should not be redressed, until the West Indians had received the price of human blood. One hon. Member had said, that nothing should be done until compensation was granted. Did not another Member say, that the treatment of the slave was as good as could be expected, and that his condition was comparatively happy, and he therefore deprecated all interference. He was surprised at the language which had been used throughout this debate, and, above all, at the observations respecting compensation. Good, God! if the West-Indian slave-owner gave freedom to his slave, would he not still be enabled to procure his labour?:- The negro must procure food and lodging and clothing; and how was he to do this, but by his labour? No one ever proposed that the property, that the land, and the houses should be taken from the West-Indians. He was at a loss, therefore, to understand for what they were to receive compensation. The right hon. Baronet stated, that society in the West Indies would be dissolved; but how this was to be occasioned he was at a loss to understand. If the slaves were emancipated, the Courts of Justice would still continue—the law would still be in force—and security to property would still exist—how, therefore, this was to be brought about, he knew not. The only change that would take place would be, that the planter would have to employ
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the free labourer instead of the slave. The period was coming when this act of justice and humanity could no longer be delayed; and even now every proper feeling which could animate the heart, called upon the House to proceed in the consideration of the question. The time was come when it must be declared that slave-evidence should be received,—that females should not be subject to the lash,—that the slave should not depend upon the arbitrary will of a master; these were things which admitted not of delay; they must be considered; they must be decided upon; and a period must be fixed, after which every human being born in our colonies should be born free.
Sir Robert Peelprotested against the consequences which must arise from the proposition of the hon. Gentleman. If a bill were brought down conferring immediate freedom upon those who should hereafter be born, what would be the feelings of those who now lived in slavery, and what would be the evil to the colonies? But he did not mean to deny that every effort ought to be made for the amelioration of the system. Slave-evidence ought undoubtedly to be received, he would not say for the benefit of the slaves, but for the interests of the country, as well as of humanity; some other amendments were equally called for.
The Petition to he on the Table.

REFORM.
At the request of Lord John Russell, who intimated a fear that it might excite premature and injurious discussion, Mr. D. W. Harvey postponed his Motion on the subject of the number of inhabitants in Boroughs and Corporate Towns.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—SINECURES, PENSIONS, SALARIES, &c. &c
On the Motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. Kennedybegged to call the attention of the House to a circumstance in which the right hon. the member for Edinburgh was concerned. That right hon. Gentleman had promised to be present when this subject was brought forward, but, as he was not in attendance, he (Mr. Kennedy) felt it his duty to lay the matter before the House. He held in his hand a paper, which had been laid on the Table of that House, and from which it appeared that the right hon. Gentleman of whom he had spoken held the office of Lord

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Clerk Registrar, and that of Keeper of the Signet, with a salary of 3,300 l. attached. But it did not appear from that paper that he held another office, and that he derived from the place of Registrar of Sasines 3,000 l. a year, so that altogether he had an income of 6,300 l. a year. Now, if this flagrant error appeared in one item, what was to be thought of the general accuracy of the paper? He had been placed on the Committee for inquiring into the salaries enjoyed by Members of that House, and undoubtedly he should be prepared to do his duty on it, but he must say, he did not think that any effectual saving could be made in the department to which the examinations of that Committee were to be directed— namely, in the efficient branches of the public service. It was to the inefficient and sinecure branches that they must look for real beneficial economy. He wished to know how this very striking error had occurred. The paper to which he alluded ought to be amended, and referred to a Committee of that House to investigate its details. The country was certainly entitled to an abridgment of those salaries for which no service was done.

AMBASSADORS.
Colonel Sibthorpcommented on the great expense of the Foreign Ambassadors, and begged to ask if it was true, that Lord Granville had been nominated to the Embassy of Paris, with all the former salary of 11,000 l. a year attached to the post.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, it was necessary that a change should take place in the Embassy; and Lord Granville was appointed. With regard to the salary of the Ambassadors, the late Government had revised that portion of the public expenditure, and the new Ambassador was going out at the reduced allowance; but if the House thought a further reduction should take place, the subject was open to consideration.
Mr. Long Wellesleysaid, that the English Ambassadors were not paid so high as foreign Ambassadors. He could state, from his own knowledge, that a relative of his own had spent a large portion of his private property in sustaining the becoming dignity of his appointment, and had not received a pension till after seventeen years' service. It was very well known that many others in the diplomatic service had employed their resources in a similar way.
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It ought also to be observed, that many persons had been placed in actual employment in order to save the country the expense of pensions for them, so that, on the whole, it could not be said that the Ambassadors were too highly paid.
Colonel Sibthorpsaid, that there was a pension of 2,000 l. a year, in addition to the salary of 12,000 l. paid to the Ambassador at the Court of Vienna; and no fewer than five pensions were paid to Ambassadors to the Ottoman Porte.

THE CURRENCY.
Mr. Attwoodtook that opportunity to ask the noble Lord (Althorp) whether it was the intention of the Government to propose any inquiry into the public distress, in connection with the change of the currency, or to adopt any measure of legislation to heal the wounds occasioned by the mischievous tampering with the currency by the Legislature since 1819.
Lord Althorpreplied, that it was not the intention of his Majesty's Government to propose any inquiry into the expediency of altering' the present plan of our currency. The hon. Gentleman would be perfectly right, with his view of the subject, to bring it forward for the consideration of Parliament; and whenever he did so, it was to be hoped that he would state explicitly what his object really was, and on what grounds he and his hon. friends were of opinion that the existing system of our currency could be advantageously altered: and whether it ought to be done by an increase of paper, by a restriction in the amount of cash payments, or by any new regulation with reference to the value of the metallic currency. For himself he would say, that, after having considered the subject long and attentively, he was perfectly satisfied that it would be utterly impossible to alter the value of our money, without producing an effect on the commerce of the country, that with reference not only to our exchanges with foreign countries, but to our domestic affairs, must be, in the highest degree, mischievous and destructive. It was of the utmost importance that the measure of value should remain fixed, and he, for one, therefore, would not consent to any further alteration in our monetary system.
Mr. Attwoodexpressed his regret to hear that it was not the intention of his Majesty's Government to bring the subject of the currency under the consideration of

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Parliament, as he was convinced that to the state of that currency the severe distress which existed throughout the country was mainly attributable.

UNNECESSARY PLACES.
Mr. Spence Mr. Spence, in order to shew the defective manner in which the returns already alluded to by the hon. member for Ayr (Mr. Kennedy), and the undue manner in which offices were accumulated in the persons of individuals, instanced the case of one person who held the situations of Prothonotary of the Court of Chancery, Clerk of the Hanaper, and Commissioner of Bankrupts; the emoluments of which several offices amounted to upwards of 9,700 l. a year, and which were wholly omitted in the returns. The person who held those offices was also a clergyman, and he had a right of reversion in them. He derived the greater part of this large sum from fees collected from bankrupts and insolvents. Unless his Majesty's Government should think proper themselves to take this subject into consideration, he would, at some future period, call the particular attention of the House to it.
Mr. Humewas happy that the present conversation gave him an opportunity of stating, that not one month, but six months ago, he had submitted to his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and to other hon. friends, the absolute necessity of a strict inquiry into the mode in which the public money was wasted in pensions, sinecures, and salaries. It was in vain to order returns to be made on this subject. Some subterfuge was always resorted to to defeat the objects in view. For instance, in answer to an order that was directed last year to the Hackney-coach Office, one gentleman admitted that he held four offices. He (Mr. Hume) happened, however, to know, that this gentleman held five offices; and the return was therefore sent back with a request that it might be amended. This, however, was refused, on the ground that there was no precedent for the required proceeding. This and other circumstances led him to the result, that it would be quite impossible to accomplish anything that would be satisfactory to the House and the public, in the way of preventing money from being fraudulently taken out of the pockets of the people, by any returns from the offices themselves; and that it was indispensable that every individual case should be made
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the subject of specific investigation. In many cases, where the emoluments were derived from fees, it was well known that only three-fourths of the salaries actually enjoyed were stated in the returns to Parliament. In others, where there were compound offices, the difficulty of getting at the facts was considerable. He was convinced that it was impossible to ascertain the real merits of the various cases except by the examination of a committee, of that House. He begged, therefore, to ask his noble friend, if he had any objection to appoint a committee for that purpose after the recess? If he had been present when the committee was lately appointed, of which committee his noble friend had done him the honour to name him a member, and which was to take into consideration a description of offices that he (Mr. Hume) would rather not meddle with, he would have taken the opportunity of recommending in preference the appointment of a committee to take into consideration the more extensive class of officers to which he had alluded. He would do away with the granting of all patent places. The pensions on the Civil List all expired on the demise of the Crown. They amounted to 150,000 l.; and he trusted that they would not be renewed. The people demanded and expected some unequivocal retrenchment of this nature, from one end of the kingdom to the other. Sinecures ought to undergo the same rigid investigation. The time had arrived when the plea of their being vested rights, by which the consideration of the subject had hitherto been clogged, should be done away with. He hoped that his noble friend would himself be prepared to propose the appointment of a committee of inquiry, such as he (Mr. Hume) recommended. If not, he now gave notice, that on the first Thursday after the recess he would move for the appointment of a committee for that purpose. He repeated, however, that if his noble friend, and his Majesty's Government generally, were disposed to take up the subject, he would much rather the committee should be appointed by them. He hoped, at least, that they would go to the bottom of the evil; and not be again deluded, as they had hitherto been. The state of the country imperatively required that every point of our national expenditure should be most rigorously examined.
Lord Althorpobserved, that his hon.

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friend asked him, if he had any objection to the appointment of a committee to inquire into the subordinate offices of the Crown. He would ask his hon. friend in return, to allow his Majesty's Ministers time to make the necessary examinations into the subject, and to endeavour to get rid of all unnecessary offices; and then, when they had done all that appeared to them to be practicable and expedient, the subject might be referred to the further consideration of a committee of that House. The view which his Majesty's Government took of the subject was, that they were determined, whenever they had power to do so, to abolish offices which had no duty attached to them. As far as they had hitherto gone, they had proceeded on that principle. They had not appointed to any offices, held during pleasure, where there were no duties to be performed; they had abolished several such offices. "Thank God!" exclaimed the noble Lord, "the time at which this country could be governed by patronage is past." Wherever his Majesty's Government were satisfied that places were merely patronage, they would abolish them; but not when they found that to those places useful duties were attached.
Mr. R. Gordonexpressed the great satisfaction with which he had heard his noble friend declare, that it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to abolish all offices to which there were no duties attached. He hoped it would be remembered, that the offices of the Lord Privy Seal and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster came under that description. They were wholly useless. He agreed entirely in opinion with his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, with reference to the pensions which terminated with the demise of the Crown. He was aware that it would be said, that they were equitable vested rights. But he maintained that, in the existing circumstances of the country, they should either be done away with, or considerably reduced. Let the House look at the Pension-list; let it observe how many persons, in consequence of various family connections, had been for years and years quartered upon the public. How often had his hon. friend the member for Middlesex, endeavoured to bring the subject under the consideration of the House. The Chancellor of the Exchequer of the time had always refused to submit the
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English Pension-list to investigation; although the Scotch and the Irish Pension-lists had been brought under consideration. The time had, however, arrived when the country would no longer be so treated; when the people demanded the utmost possible economy and retrenchment. And he must confess that, having on a recent occasion alluded to the legal appointments in Ireland, on which occasion the noble Lord had said, that when the proper time came, he should be able to state to the House such an economical arrangement as would be generally satisfactory, it was with great regret that he had heard elsewhere that it was proposed to give Sir Anthony Hart a retiring pension of 3,600 l.; which was to be met by a permanent reduction of 2,000 l. in the salary of the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland. He was quite sure that this, together with the other legal arrangements in Ireland, would give the greatest and most general dissatisfaction.
Sir R. Bateson Sir R. Bateson, referring to the circumstance that the Duke of Northumberland had very patriotically resigned of his own accord 7,000 l. of his salary as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, wished to ask the noble Lord, if it was the intention of his Majesty's Government that the salary of the present Lord Lieutenant should be taken at the same rate.
Lord Althorp Lord Althorp, in reply to his hon. friend the member for Cricklade, who had taunted him with the remark, that the offices of Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Lord Privy Seal were useless, and should be abolished, observed, that with respect to the Chancellorship of the Duchy of Lancaster, the House was aware that the revenues of that Duchy were never considered a part of the revenues of the country, and therefore could not, together with the officer by whom they were administered, be submitted to the consideration of the House. He did not think the House ought to call on his Majesty to surrender those revenues. His Majesty had sacrificed other sources of income to the public good; but he (Lord Althorp) did not see, that because his Majesty had done so, he should be called upon to sacrifice all those sources. With respect to the office of Lord Privy Seal, both in England and in Scotland, he could not admit that it was a useless office in either country. Nor could he admit, that in such a Government as ours,

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it was desirable to abolish an office which materially contributed to the dignity of the Crown. It was by no means useless to connect the higher orders of the nobility with the Crown, in such a manner as to maintain its proper state and splendour. This he said with respect to the offices, but the amount of the salaries attached to them was quite a different matter; and it would, of course, be competent to the committee which had been appointed for the purpose of investigating the subject, to consider whether or not those salaries ought to be reduced. As to the question which had been put to him by the hon. Baronet, with respect to the salary of the present Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, he believed that the same arrangements had been made as with the former Lord Lieutenant; he meant the same reduction had been made on the amount of the salary.
Sir E. B. Sugdenadmitted, that sinecure offices were a great burthen on the country. He maintained, that the individual who held the Great Seal ought to have an income sufficiently large to maintain his dignity; but that there was no defence for patent places. They were granted in many cases most unnecessarily, and frequently fell at remote periods, to persons by whom they ought not to be possessed; the means by which those persons were paid being taken from the suitors in Courts of Justice, and thereby injuring the administration of the law. It was entirely a different thing, however, with the great Officers of State; and it appeared to him to be a very wild notion to condemn the ancient office of the Lord Privy Seal —an office of considerable use. It was undoubtedly necessary that every Administration should have some places, or other means of liberality, to assist them in carrying on their Government. They could not always proceed upon the principles of the hon. member for Middlesex, and burthen a man to the last endurable point, with the least possible remuneration for his labour. Honest exertions in the public service ought to be fairly rewarded. He would not reward those who did not deserve it; but he would always reward those who did.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he had never heard his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, maintain that men who laboured for the public ought not to be paid for their labour. His hon. friend's argument had been, that those who did not labour ought
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not to receive any reward. With respect to the means which the hon. and learned Gentleman asserted ought to be at the disposal of Government to reward services, it should be recollected that those means were derived from the estates of insolvents and bankrupts. The Irish Pension-list was in the highest degree scandalous. There was not one individual upon it—with the exception of Lord Rodney—he meant the ancestor of the present Lord—who had ever done a particle of good to the country. There was still a representative of the great Rodney on that list; but at this remote period, he doubted whether even that was justifiable? There was the representative of Mr. Robert Shaw, a merchant and banker, whose son was a Baronet, and had been a Member of that House. Why was the country to be burthened with 800 l. a-year for him? The Pension-lists ought to be referred to the consideration of a committee, to inquire on what services and on what alleged grounds the various pensions had been granted. If ever there was a person of integrity and honour, he was persuaded that it was the noble Lord; and he (Mr. O'Connell) had listened with great anxiety to hear the noble Lord's statement respecting the judicial appointments which had recently taken place in Ireland.
Lord Althorpobserved, that he had not been able to make a satisfactory statement on that subject, because the whole arrangement had not been completed.
Mr. O'Connellproceeded:—The 10,000 l. which had been the salary of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland was in Irish currency; being only 9,600 l. British. The saving, therefore, would be only 1,600 l. He begged to submit to the consideration of his Majesty's Government a case of supposition. If the administration of justice in Ireland were to be handed over to one family; if a system of nepotism were to prevail over the whole of that department of the State; if near relatives were to be so placed, that the appeal from their decisions must be from a relative here to a relative there; if (as he had remarked on another occasion) seats on the Bench were to be filled up by persons not known in the Courts, whom public opinion branded with incapacity, who were placed in high situations merely because they had been Members of that House; if a noble Lord were to be induced to resign on the score of age, for the pur-

1075
pose of replacing him by an individual of the same years; the consequences of such arrangements could not be contemplated without alarm. He by no means said that such appointments had taken place; but if they were to take place, the deepest blame would rest on his Majesty's Government. To the people of Ireland generally, but to the poorer classes especially, the defective administration of the law must be pregnant with the most injurious consequences. In promoting some of the individuals to whom he had adverted, Government would be promoting not their friends, but their enemies; and that he was an enemy was a very bad reason for advancing any one to a high judicial office. Were the things certain to which he had alluded as possible, no considerations of delicacy would prevent him from arraigning, if not impeaching, those by whom they had been done. He hoped that they would not be done without consulting the opinion of the Irish Bar. The opinions which he had expressed were not his alone —they were not the opinions of any party —they were universal Let his Majesty's Ministers consult the Irish Bench on the subject. Nothing in his whole political life had given him more pain than the necessity which he felt to make such observations with reference to any measure of a Government to which he was anxious to give his warm and disinterested support as the friends of economy and reform at home, and of peace abroad.
Mr. George Robinsonrecommended his Majesty's Ministers to repudiate all aid derived from corrupt sources, and to pursue steadily the course which they seemed to have marked out for themselves. They would then be supported by the country. He perfectly agreed with the noble Lord, that the time had gone by when any Administration could carry on the Government of the country unless they threw themselves on the people, and particularly on those Representatives who enjoyed the confidence of the people. Not long ago, an hon. Member asked the noble Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a question with reference to the salary of the new Ambassador to France. The noble Lord's answer was, that of course that Ambassador would go out with the salary that had been fixed by the late Ministry. Now why that was a matter "of course," he (Mr. Robinson) was at a loss to understand; especially as he recollected, that
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when the Members of the present Government were on the other side of the House, they loudly protested against excessive diplomatic salaries. The question was, therefore, not what the late Ministers had fixed, but what the present Ministers, who professed so much love of retrenchment, would fix. On this subject he begged to say one word more. He did not wish to undervalue the merits of the distinguished persons who had at various periods served as Ambassadors from this country to foreign Courts. He had no doubt they were fully competent to the greater part of their duties. But this he would say, that no country in the world had ever been worse served by its Ambassadors, in all important matters which related to trade and commerce. They were inadequate to such discussions. They were either not well instructed, or they had been injudiciously selected. Wherever subjects of trade, or treaties of commerce, were discussed, our Ambassadors always appeared to be overmatched. He repeated his hope that he had misunderstood the noble Lord when he supposed him to say, that the new Ambassador to France would have the same salary as that which the late Ministry had fixed for his predecessor. He should be happy to support Ministers, but unquestionably he would oppose them with all his power if he found them not acting up to the principles they had professed out of office.
Lord Palmerstonobserved, that, in answer to the question which the hon. Gentleman had put to him on the subject, not long ago, he had stated, that the late Ministers had reduced the scale of the salaries of Ambassadors, and, therefore, that any new Ambassador would go out on the reduced salary of that scale. He had added, however, that the subject would still come under the revision of his Majesty's present Government. In the salary of the Ambassador to France the late Administration did not contemplate any reduction. No doubt, therefore, the present Ambassador to France would go with the present salary; with the understanding, however, that it would be subject to any reduction that might be considered proper. He was sorry to hear the hon. Gentleman assert, that England was the country the worst served by its Ambassadors; although he was glad to find that the assertion was qualified by limiting its application to

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matters of trade and commerce. If the allegation of the hon. Gentleman were well founded, it attached at least as much blame to the Government as to the Ambassadors of England; for it was well known that no Ambassador would negociate treaties of trade or commerce without having previously received the fullest instructions from home.
Sir J. Yorkewas satisfied that if Ministers did their duty in the manner which they had declared they would, the most beneficial consequences would be the result. But he owned he was lamentably disappointed, after their assurances that they would never flinch, but would retrench to the back-bone, by the commencement which they had made. There was the noble Lord who had just been launched as Ambassador to France, to remain precisely at the same salary as his predecessor. If the noble Lord had stated that the offices of Lord Privy Seal, and Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster were abolished, or that those noble Lords who held them were to serve without pay, if he had stated that we were to have a Government without salaries, and a Civil List without pensions, it would have been something; but the new Ministers were already finding excuses for treading in the steps of their predecessors. If the Government adhered to a system of unflinching retrenchment and reform, they should have his support; but it would be a melancholy thing if, after all their fine professions, they were merely to tread in the steps of their predecessors. He expressed his exceeding astonishment that the members of the new Administration who had recorded their opinion to the effect that Ireland should, by the abolition of the office of Lord Lieutenant, he rendered an integral, and cease to be, as it were, a colonial portion of the British dominions, should not have come forward, now that they had the power, and declare that the office should exist no longer.
Mr. H. Twisscontended that it was a great mistake to suppose that the office of Lord Privy Seal was a needless office. "With respect to pensions, he begged to say, that it was his hope the new Government would not be induced to place the Sovereign in the invidious position of creating an immense mass of private distress. Reduction, he insisted, ought to be confined to offices during pleasure. Those emoluments ought not to be taken
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away, which might be considered as vested interests. If the advocates of retrenchment and reform proceeded too far in their demands, they would entirely defeat their own object.
Mr. Wilkssaid, that he could not concur in the view of the last speaker, that pensions should be considered as vested interests. On the same profligate principle men were said to have a vested interest in slaves. With such answers to their demands the people of England would not be satisfied. They remembered that 113 Privy Councillors divided amongst themselves nearly a million of money, and that upwards of two millions were paid in salaries of 1,000 l., and they would not be satisfied by being told that these, and all the pensions on the Civil List, were vested interests. He trusted Government would not take the advice of the hon. and learned Gentleman. The glory of the present Administration would, he hoped, be founded on the promotion of reform and retrenchment.
Lord Morpethwas sure that his noble relative would cheerfully accede to any recommendation of that House respecting the salary he should receive for his services abroad. He observed, that it was unfair thus to assail the Government before it had time to draw the sword from the scabbard; and it ought not to be expected to cut down every abuse before it had had time even once to wield its arm.
Alderman Waithmanwas of opinion, that a salary of 11,000 l. a-year was excessive for our Ambassador to France. The country would be shocked when they heard it was intended to send Lord Granville out with such an income. The sum was too large, and ought to be reduced instantly, for the extravagance of a profligate Government could be no excuse for any waste by a Government professing economy. He believed that the sum was far greater than the French Ambassador to this country enjoyed.
Mr. R. Granthad heard with some degree of anxiety the premature expression of distrust, upon the part of certain hon. Members, towards the Government. It appeared these hon. Members doubted whether the new Administration would act in accordance with the professions they had made. For himself he had no such doubt. He would have decidedly flinched from taking office if he had not received pledges that all their professions

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would be carried into effect; and amongst the rest, that an abolition should take place of all useless offices, and that there should be an adjustment of the salaries of offices which were to be maintained, in proportion to the services to be done. Now, although these reductions came under different heads, they yet fell under the same principle; for if there was to be an adjustment in proportion to the service rendered, it proved that, where there was no service there would be no salary, There was less hesitation and less time demanded when the object was to abolish useless offices, than when the office must be maintained, and the salary was to be adjusted. The latter was a matter of grave consideration; but at the same time he felt no doubt that, after due consideration, and at no very distant period, all salaries would be adjusted. It was too much to call on the Government, both to commence its inquiries, and at once to arrive at a decision. The main support of that Administration must arise from the fulfilment of these pledges, and from the assistance of the enlightened men who gave their voice to them in that House. They had nothing to depend upon but the friendship of the people, which would be afforded to them, not from blind confidence, but would be meted out to them in proportion to the services performed.
Mr. Maberlyrose to declare, that the present Government should have his support as long as their conduct was in accordance with their professions. He had at present perfect confidence in the Administration, and he thought time should be allowed them. They should be afforded an opportunity of dealing with things, not abstractedly, but generally. He recommended classification in the work of reduction. They should not take a single office—it was useless and invidious; they should arrange a scale for the several salaries under the head of diplomacy, and go on with the Dead Weight, pensions, and other charges on the public revenue. The present Administration was the only one that ever professed to act upon the principles which were held by him (Mr. Maberly) and his friends. The determination that no reform should take place, although the Duke of Wellington only had the resolution to declare it, was, he believed, common to all the members of the late Government. He entreated hon. Members not to damage an Administration which was
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inclined to do right. That Administration was determined to practise economy, and a part of that economy would be a revision of our whole diplomatic expenditure. If, therefore, the old salary was at present continued to the Ambassador at Paris, it was only done till the whole could be arranged. The Administration was one which could not look for much support from the aristocracy. It must, in fact, depend upon the people; and in conclusion he would say to that Administration, if it were beaten on the great question of Reform in that House, let them at once dissolve Parliament—let them appeal to the people, and the people would give them a triumphant majority. This was his recommendation; and if they pursued it, they would be sure to secure themselves in the Government, and to retain the hearts of the people.
Mr. Courtenaydeclared, that the late Government had professed and pursued the principle of retrenchment; and remarked, that their reductions were not directed to the paltry salaries of clerks, but to those offices which had heretofore been filled up for the purposes of patronage. The Duke of Wellington, for instance, had not given away a single commission during the existence of the late Administration.
Lord G. Bentinckobserved, in reference to the assertion of a worthy Alderman (Waithman), that the salary of 11,000 l. a-year, granted to our Ambassador in France, was excessive—that the Ambassadors of the Citizen King and a reformed Chamber had 12,000 l. a-year and a house.
Lord John Russellsaid, it was a gross error to suppose that the diplomatic expenditure of England exceeded that of other countries. He did not, however, mean to state that the salary alluded to should not be reduced; but the question required consideration. He declared, that although he had not recorded any vote upon the subject, in his opinion the keeping up the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was not consistent with a just economy. But it did. not follow, that because he entertained this opinion, he should approve of the removal of this officer in the present state of Ireland. It did not follow that Government, even if entertaining similar sentiments, was to say, "We will maintain our consistency—we will brave the danger—we will charge the

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Secretary for the Home Department with the burthen of Irish affairs, notwithstanding the abundant occupation he receives from the present state of England; we will take our chance for all the mischief which may arise from the removal of the Lord Lieutenant, rather than sacrifice one iota of our consistency." For his part he considered it would be much the better course to appoint a Lord Lieutenant for the present, looking forward to a time when, tranquillity being restored, and confidence re established in Ireland, they might safely and securely dispense with that part of the establishment. He admitted that in the last Administration there was more economy and less corruption than in any which had preceded it; it was far, however, from understanding the temper and necessities of the present times. Of the corruptions of Governments which had preceded the present they had damning proofs upon the Table. There were names in the pension list which ought to make those who bore them blush, and which had raised to the utmost the indignation of the people. There were sinecures created, not by the Duke of Wellington, but by those who had preceded him which made it impossible not to see, either that the Government must reduce them in answer to the cry of the people, or else expose the faith of the country to stain. In conclusion he observed, that the mad resistance of the late Administration to Reform would not, had they continued in office, have defeated that measure, but would undoubtedly have involved the monarchy and the aristocracy in one common ruin.
Mr. Lennarddeclared his adhesion to the Ministers, but remarked, that if it wished to retain the confidence of the people, they must look upon the diplomatic expenditure with a scrutinising eye. He did not yet despair of them, and thought it was most unreasonable in others to find fault with them, for they had yet been only three weeks in office. He certainly hoped that the large perquisites of Diplomatic Offices would undergo revision.
Mr. Humehoped, that the Government would suspend all the promotions of the year till it had fully ascertained how many were actually required. Every promotion was but an addition to the amount of the pensions of the country. There were now many more Officers, both in the naval and military establishments,
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than were actually wanted. He hoped that the Government would be prepared to stop them, from this day forward, till inquiry had been made. He gave them this caution, because he saw yesterday a notice of a promotion to an unattached commission. He believed that at this moment there were 1,200 Supernumerary Officers with all their half-pay. There might have been differences of opinion under the former Government as to the question of promotions, but after what had fallen from the noble Lord, he believed the rate of promotion formerly carried on would no longer be deemed necessary. Under the Government of the Duke of Wellington there had been more promotions, in a time of profound peace, than when we had a thousand pendants flying on the ocean, and 500,000 men in arms. If what the noble Lord had laid down should be followed, it would be well for the country, but if not, it would be the duty of some one to press the matter on the attention of the House.
Lord Althorpknew, that the subject referred to by the hon. Member had been under consideration, and that it was the desire of the Government to relieve the country as much as possible from the amount of the Dead Weight. He must say, however, that he did not agree with the hon. Member that all promotion whatever ought to stop. He acknowledged that it ought to be checked—that it should not go on without an absolute necessity— but to stop it altogether would be fatal to both Services, and to the Navy in particular. The great object, certainly, of the Government would be, to relieve, as much as possible, the nation from the expense of the Army and Navy.
Sir G. Clerksaid, that as the hon. member for Middlesex had declared, that the promotions under the Administration of the Duke of Wellington had been greater than during the war, he thought it due to the character of that noble Duke to call the attention of the House to the regulations which the noble Duke had instituted to put a check upon promotion in the Navy, so that no promotion took place in any particular class till there were three vacancies in that class. That regulation had been at the time so much approved, even by the hon. member for Middlesex, that that hon. Member recommended to the noble Lord opposite (Lord Palmerston), then Secre-

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tary at War, that he should adopt a similar regulation in the Army. Although he had doubts of the extent of the economy which the Ministers would be able to practise, he certainly should be highly gratified to see them able to carry the system of retrenchment to the same extent as it had been carried under the Administration of the noble Duke. He was satisfied that very much indeed was expected from the present Ministers, and that some very extravagant ideas had gone abroad on the subject. He gave them full credit for their wish to meet those ideas; but he doubted their power to do so, and he believed that when they had had more time to look narrowly into the details of their various offices, they would see that it was much more difficult than they imagined to effect the reductions expected from them.
Mr. Hobhouseobserved, that he and his hon. friends in the same situation with himself, were greatly embarrassed by having two Governments, the late and the present, to deal with. In his opinion it had been truly stated by the noble Lord, the. Paymaster of the Forces, that the Duke of Wellington did not understand the feelings of the times, and did not go along with them as he ought in the belief of the necessity of the utmost economy and retrenchment. At the same time he was ready to confess that the late Ministers had gone as far as the corrupt system of that House, and of the Constitution of the Government allowed them. But with respect to going further, to their trying a new and constitutional mode of governing the country, that House had the best evidence to the contrary, in the declaration made by the noble Duke himself, who had told the House of Lords, and it was fortunate for that House, and for the country, that he had openly told them, he was determined not to try that new system which this country was now resolved, and the present Government determined, should be tried for the salvation of the community. He would not cavil at the opinion of that illustrious person, but he believed that the noble Duke was consistently the friend of the old, as he (Mr. Hobhouse) and his friends were of the new system. Under these circumstances, he could not but believe that the noble Lord was right in saying that the Duke of Wellington did not understand the circumstances of the times. Those circumstances were such,
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that no Ministers could now succeed without trying the new system: he defied them to do without it. He lived, perhaps, more amongst the people, for he was one of the people, than most other Members, and he knew their opinions. He was sure, that if Gentlemen saw the circumstances and signs of the times, as he saw them, they must be convinced that public opinion was running in a current which could not now be opposed by the present Government, and would never by any which might follow hereafter, be in the slightest degree controlled. He had no doubt that the present Ministers meant well—how could he doubt it?—He who had for so many years fought side by side with them—who had heard their oft-expressed opinions on the questions of reform and retrenchment —how could he believe that they were men who would at once betray and destroy their duty to the people and themselves? He had the best guarantee to the contrary—he had that of their own character —he had the knowledge of them privately, and he saw what was their course in their public duty. His confidence in them had rather increased during the last three weeks; he had heard from that bench language which he never expected to have heard from it—he meant the language of patriotism from men in office, who were men in whom he confided. They had not only not changed their opinion and their conduct, but had rather given greater pledges of the sincerity of their former opinions. They placed their dependence on the people, and they would not be disappointed; but he wished to guard them against the advice given them by the hon. and right hon. Members who sat on this (the Opposition) side of the House, having recently come over here from the opposite benches. By some of these hon. Members it had lately been said, that John Bull was a great gentleman, and of course must have servants like a great gentleman servants, in fact, who, like those of Don Quixote, would do what they pleased with their master. In that manner the great gentleman would be in a fair way to become a poor gentleman. He protested against the use of such language, and he assured the House, that the public felt most strongly they could not afford to play the great gentleman in that manner. So far from it, indeed, that the public did not like even their efficient officers to be overpaid. It was supposed that the public did

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not think the men overpaid who really did the business of the State—it was a mistake, there was a general—almost an universal feeling, that many of them were over-paid; and if the public wish were attended to, many of their salaries would be reduced; and it must be attended to, in order to keep public faith, and to support those necessary burthens which had placed the country in its present situation in Europe. He repeated his caution to his friends opposite, and he gave them this advice in a spirit of true friendship: for when he observed the hon. and right hon. Gentlemen newly arrived on that side of the House cheering the hon. Gentlemen opposite, he began, like a celebrated character of antiquity, to suspect that the latter had said some very foolish thing. He called on them, therefore, to depend on themselves, and on themselves alone: for he believed that they had both the will and the power to do real service to the country—he believed, indeed, as was said of them the other night, that they were placed between the country and destruction. He was happy to see that they were not opposed in a vexatious manner—a circumstance which did infinite credit to the right hon. Gentleman, late Secretary for the Home Department. No symptoms of faction had yet appeared in that House; he trusted it would be left to the other House of Parliament, or to any other place: but let them remember, that they were sent thither by the people, to do the work of the people, for the benefit of the people. While he had reason to think the Ministry held the same sentiments as those they formerly professed, and while they seemed to act on those sentiments, they should have his cordial support. He warned them, however, against the dangerous advice of the ex-under-Secretary, for if they wanted to secure the support of the people, they must not imitate his changing career, and they must cut off pensions as well as cut down salaries. Let the House recollect that they were sent there to do the work of the people, not countenance the bad jobs of any Ministers.
The House resolved itself into a Committee of SUPPLY.
Mr. H. Twisssaid, he had been misunderstood on one point of advice which he had offered, and that was, in his recommendation of economy. He had suggested, certainly, that those pensions
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which had been irrevocably granted should not be reduced, but that offices which were held at the pleasure of Government should be curtailed. He was also mistaken by the hon. member for Westminster in having been understood to have proffered his friendship, or intimated his intention at any time to support the present Ministry. The hon. Gentleman had talked of the career he had run; but if the career of so unimportant an individual was worthy of the attention of the House, he challenged the hon. Member to state what there was so peculiar in his career as to justify the hon. Member in adverting to it in the terms he had done.
Mr. W. Duncomberose to order. He submitted that the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Twiss) had delivered his sentiments once on the subject already during the evening, and that it was irregular for him again to address the House on the same subject.
Mr. H. Twisssubmitted, that when a Member was attacked personally, the courtesy of the House properly permitted him to defend himself.
Mr. Hobhousedisclaimed any intention of saying anything offensive of the hon. and learned Gentleman. He never intended to insinuate that the hon. Member's career had not been honourable and consistent.
Mr. Slaneywould not venture to intrude his sentiments upon the House, but that he felt his constituents were deeply interested. He understood the present Government was founded upon the principles of peace, retrenchment, and reform, and whilst Ministers acted in accordance with those principles, they should have his cordial support. He could assure the House that, amongst his constituents, and he believed throughout the country, there was a strong and increasing feeling in favour of reform.
Lord Althorpsaid, that perhaps the best mode of rendering himself intelligible would be, to state the supplies that had been voted for the present year, what were the Ways and Means which had been voted, and what remained to be voted. And first, as to the supplies voted.

The amount voted for the Army was

£ 7,414,000

For the Navy

5,597,000

For the Ordnance

1,695,000

And for the Miscellaneous

1,932,000

Total

£16,638,000

To these were to be added 750,000 l. Duty

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on Exchequer Bills, and 300,000 l. on account of the Civil List; making in the whole a sum of 17,688,000 l. The Ways and Means provided to meet this expenditure he stated as follows:—

Receipts from the East-India Company

£ 60,000

Surplus from supplies of last year.

80,000

Sugar Duty

3,000,000

Repayment of Exchequer Bills.

183,500

From the Consolidated Fund

12,500,000

£5,823,000

There remained, therefore. 1,865,000 l. to be voted. At present, however, he called upon the Committee to vote 1,850,000 l. As to the amount of the supplies for the present year, he did not feel himself called upon to defend them. He now called upon the Committee merely to make up the deficiency that lay over since last Session. As to the supplies for the ensuing year, when they were brought forward, it would be the duty of the Committee to take the greatest possible care to reduce the Estimates to the lowest standard that was consistent with the public service. As to the intentions of his Majesty's Government, he knew that the expectations of the country were greatly excited; so greatly, that, with all the exertions that could be made, he feared some would be disappointed. He begged the House, however, to believe, that the Ministry would do their utmost to show that they were really in earnest in their professions of economy, and if the reductions they contemplated did not amount to as large a saving as some considered desirable, he hoped those who differed from him on that point, would nevertheless give him, and the other members of his Majesty's Government, credit for good intentions. The noble Lord concluded by moving a vote of 1,850,000 l.
Mr. R. Gordondid not rise to oppose the motion of his noble friend, but merely to remind him of the peculiar situation in which the House was placed, with regard to the Estimates. The Estimates were for services performed from the 1st of January; they were never presented to the House until the end of February, and they were voted, perhaps, in June or July. What was called "the control of Parliament," therefore, was little more than a mockery, as the greater part of the money was spent before it was voted. In France the Estimates were voted a year in advance, and since 1825,
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when that system commenced, the representatives of the people in that country had a real and efficient control over the public money. He suggested to his noble friend, in the next Session, to bring forward the supplies for six quarters instead of four; and then the supplies for the various public services would really come under the control of Parliament. He had the greatest confidence in the plain, open conduct of his noble friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), who, he believed, was strictly an honest man. He heard his noble friend's determination, not to fill up inefficient offices, with great satisfaction; but still he felt that some offices had been filled up which were, in a great degree, inefficient. The office of Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, for instance, which the noble and learned Lord now on the Woolsack had so pointedly condemned; and the office of Post-master general, which had been recommended to be abolished in the reports of five committees, of one of which the noble Lord himself was Chairman. He took the opportunity of throwing out these observations, because he considered that the noble Lord was placed in a most enviable situation [a laugh.] He repeated the word enviable though it had excited a laugh, for his noble friend was placed in a situation in which he could do much good. He was now the Minister of the Crown; by his former conduct he had proved himself the friend of the people, and, by combining these two situations, he had it in his power to do incalculable service to the country. Let him not look to patronage or votes; let there be no hankering after boroughmongers, no soothing of one and tampering with another; let him say he depended on his acts, and he would be backed by the country. He had heard it said, that the Government kept great offices to give to the aristocracy, in order to obtain their support. He recommended the Government to sweep away those offices; not to seek for such influence, but to depend on the people. It was not in reference to the noble Lord's high blood, or the family he represented, but to his present situation and his principles, that he said his noble friend had it now in his power to earn a greater name than any one who had ever filled the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Colonel Sibthorpsaid, he intended to follow up the question he had put in the

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early part of the evening by sixty other questions respecting unnecessary offices. After the declaration of the noble Lord, however, he would not trouble the House by putting any other question at present. He was bound to confide in the noble Lord's declarations, and whilst the Government acted up to them, they should have his humble support.
Lord Althorpsaid, that if the hon. and gallant Member asked questions respecting all the useless places under Government, he might easily ask more than sixty questions. He could only assure the House, that the most rigid economy would continue to be enforced—that every office would be abolished that was not considered useful. He hoped that a very great saving might be effected in the collection of the Revenue, and he hoped, after the recess, to be able to come forward with some propositions on that subject which would show that, the Government was in earnest. He never defended the keeping up any situation on the ground that it was desirable to obtain influence for the Crown in Parliament. He never used such an argument at the other side of the House, and certainly should not do so where he then stood. As to the office of the Great Seal in Scotland, it was almost the only office of state left in that country, and was settled by the Act of Union. He was glad, however, that the consideration of the emolument attached to it had been referred to a committee. As to the holder of the Privy Seal in England, he was a Cabinet Minister, and he could assure the House, that a member of the Cabinet, in these times, did not hold a sinecure. To abolish all those offices the Government must change the whole course of the law. He could state, however, from his own knowledge, that it was resolved that every office that was not useful should, as soon as. possible, be abolished. The present Ministry had already abolished the office of Vice-treasurer of Ireland, of Postmaster-general of Ireland, and of Lieutenant-general of the Ordnance; and united the offices of Treasurer of the Navy and Vice-president of the Board of Trade. Reductions in several smaller offices had also been made; and seven or eight offices, not reported against by any committee, had been abolished. As to the office of Postmaster-general, he was aware that it had been reported against by a committee of that
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House, and that the duties were not of any great amount; but he believed that, when the details of the arrangements made by the noble Duke (Richmond) who now filled the office of Postmaster-general, came to be laid before Parliament, they would be found extremely satisfactory. His hon. friend (Mr. Gordon) had described his as an enviable situation; he felt his situation, however, as most alarming, and he confessed he was apprehensive that many of those with whom he had acted during his life, and who ought to give him credit, at least, for his good intentions would now desert him. He feared their desertion, he confessed, and, therefore, his situation was much more alarming than enviable.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanexpressed his entire satisfaction at what had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. His situation was certainly most difficult, for great responsibility attached to it, as the distress of the country was urgent, and the country looked to the noble Lord and his colleagues for relief. He (Mr. Alderman Waithman) should feel it his duty to watch the proceedings of Government; but, as far as it was consistent with his duty, he would give the noble Lord his support.
Mr. Humedid not wish to go so far as France for an example of voting estimates in advance; at the same time, the estimates ought to be laid on the Table three months before the House was called on to vote them, in order that they might be fairly explained and considered. The noble Lord should be prepared now to lay before the House what was required for next year. The Ministers would surely be able to make all their reductions by the end of January. They might state within a few days what was the largest sum they would want for the next year. It was the large establishments that should be looked to, if any real savings were contemplated. There was 7,000,000 l. for the Army, 6,000,000 l. for the Navy, and 1,500,000 l. for the Ordnance; and then the Artillery was five times the amount it had been a few years ago. In a state of profound peace, and with pacific intentions, why did the Government keep up a war establishment of 80,000 men, besides 29,000 men for the Navy? The Artillery was 9,000 at present; and 3,000 was formerly thought sufficient. It was not the pay of these men even, but the expenses of bar-

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racks, and the many other etceteras required for their convenience and efficiency, which swelled the amount of the estimates. He mentioned this particularly, because he heard it rumoured abroad that the Government intended adding to the military force of the country. He(Mr. Hume)trusted that it would not be deluded into any such step, and that the report was unfounded: so far from adding to the number, Government ought to reduce at least 20,000 men; and then it would have as large a force as existed in 1822. When 20,000 men might be reduced, it was throwing away millions, and priding themselves on saving a few thousands by the abolition of one or two offices. If 20,000 men were reduced immediately, the coal and candle duties might be repealed. The Navy might also safely be reduced to the extent of 10,000 men, including the 9,000 marines, not one-half of whom were ever afloat at the same time. If these reductions were made immediately, the whole of the Assessed taxes might be repealed, which pressed so heavily on the class the least able to bear them. He trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would now contradict the report that 6,000 or 7,000 additional troops were to be raised. The Government must prove itself in earnest in its professions of economy, if it did not wish to encounter a serious opposition. If palaces were to be repaired or built, let it be done out of the profits of the Crown-lands, and let not the people of England be called upon to pay for them by additional taxes. If the Government took advice from him as from a friend, he would tell the Lord Chancellor to enforce the same principles in the Cabinet as he did in his place in that House; and let the offices connected with the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall likewise be given up. The latter cost perhaps only 5,000 l. a year, but it secured fifteen members in Parliament, and therefore he objected to it, not so much for the money as for the patronage and influence. In conclusion, he trusted that the Estimates for the next year would be produced at an early day, and that a large reduction would be found in the gross amount. That was the only way to relieve the distresses of the country.
Sir Joseph Yorkecontended, that all extremes were bad, and declared that no extreme could be worse than that recommended by the hon. member for Middlesex—that
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of reducing the army below such an amount as was sufficient for the protection of the country and the maintenance of tranquillity. The most dangerous proposition that could be entertained would be that for reducing our military or naval force; and he sincerely trusted that he should never see the British Artillery in a worse state than it was at the present moment. Really, the policy recommended by the hon. Gentleman was no better than that which would kill the goose for the sake of its eggs. He must say, that he wished the hon. Member had remained in connexion with the North, and not sought to become the Representative of a large and rich county. He sincerely wished he might never see the time when he should lose the protection of the red-coats; but for the assistance which they rendered, he would take leave to say, that none of the leaders in the present disturbances would ever have been discovered. In his opinion, not a single soldier could be dispensed with; but he had no objection that the Government should throw the Dead Weight overboard as soon as ever it pleased.
Lord Althorpagreed with his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, that it would be highly desirable not to vote the Estimates for so long a period as that recommended by the hon. member for Cricklade; and he further thought, it would be highly desirable to have the Estimates laid before Parliament at as early a period as possible; but he must be allowed to say, that the worst possible economy would be to bring forward the Estimates prematurely, and before every possible reduction had been made which circumstances permitted. As to the question which had been asked by the hon. Gentleman, it was with regret he should give a reply to it, for he felt sorry to disappoint him; but truth compelled him to state, that the circumstances of the country had reduced his Majesty's Government to the necessity of making up their minds to propose the increase of the Army to the extent mentioned; that was, to the amount of 6,000 or 7,000 men; but he could at the same time assure the House, that every effort would be made to effect that addition in the cheapest manner possible. He was sure the House would concur with him in thinking, that at the present moment it was no matter of surprise that the Government should come forward with a proposition for the increase of the army. He was as averse as any man

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could be from desiring to govern by military force; but when riot and disorder every where prevailed, the first duty of the Government was to put it down. As to what had been said with respect to the Duchy of Lancaster, and as to the opinions expressed by his noble friend upon that subject, he begged to observe, that his noble friend had only spoken of the King's Speech as calculated to excite expectations which could not be realized. When it was intimated that his Majesty proposed to surrender all his hereditary revenues without reserve, it was looked for by his noble friend and was expected by the public that that declaration would include the revenues of the Duchy of Lancaster, and that expectation, he feared, would not be fulfilled, and events proved that his anticipations were well founded. If by the words used expectations were raised which were not intended at all, surely those who never anticipated the excitement of such unfounded expectations were not to be accused of having pledged themselves to the fulfilment of such expectations. In defence of the continuance of the revenues of the Duchy remaining in the same state, he said that those revenues were one of the few remaining properties of the Crown which were at the disposal of his Majesty, and he hoped the House would permit him to say, that it would not be a gracious return to his present Majesty, after his having given up so much, to call on him for the relinquishment of that which all his predecessors had enjoyed.
Sir M. W. Ridleythought, the situation of the noble Lord undoubtedly one of great difficulty, and he regretted to hear demands from hon. Members which it was not in the power of his noble friend, nor of any other individual whatever, to comply with. He was extremely sorry to hear the hon. member for Middlesex—particularly under the present circumstances of the country,—again advocating that doctrine, which was one of the most mischievous that a human being could possibly advocate,—the reduction of our military establishments. He would ask the hon. member for Middlesex, if he looked to the state of France—of Belgium—of Holland,—if he considered the present state of Poland and of the kingdom of Naples,—and of all the neighbouring countries; could he think that these were times to reduce the miserable, scanty military force which we have at this instant.
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Did the hon. Member know, that in Ireland there were not above 300 cavalry?— and did he know that there were not above 100 in the northern districts, from Manchester to the borders of Scotland,—that there were not enough to perform the ordinary routine duties of the district? Would he, under these circumstances, reduce our army, and much less our navy? The Government had, in his opinion, very unwisely cut down our military establishments too low. Again, it was said, that the expenses of the country, at this moment, were very large, amounting to 50,000,000 l. But the cutting down every establishment, the making every possible retrenchment, and the saving of every possible shilling, would not be sufficient, under our present circumstances, to give the country any effectual relief. Seventeen millions was the amount of our military and civil establishments, and our whole expenditure was about 50,000,000 l. Under these circumstances, it was utterly impossible to make any reduction sufficient to satisfy the wishes and expectations of the people, unless some plan could be suggested to get rid of the30,000,000 l. a-year, appropriated to pay the interest of the debt. That was the bur then which pressed down the country, — which weighed so heavily on it; and while that remained, the House could not possibly effect a sufficient saving by the reduction of the establishments, to admit of such a diminution of taxation as would prove an essential benefit to the country. Suppose, as appears by the report of last year to be possible,— that a reduction in taxes, amounting to 1,000,000 l. a-year could be made, would that be sufficient to alleviate the wants and meet the wishes of the people? He would not object to such a reduction, but he objected to hearing it said, that by reducing any part of the Army or Navy, we could make an important reduction in our taxation, which was impossible while 30,000,000 l. annually was to be paid as interest on the public debt. He hoped, difficult as it was, that some plan might be devised to reduce that Debt. But he for one, would not sacrifice the respect he entertained for public justice for the sake of any temporary popularity to be obtained, by holding out hopes to the people, of a reduction of taxation which was quite impossible to the extent expected
Sir Hussey Vivianhad heard with the utmost astonishment the observations

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which fell from the hon. member for Middlesex; and he had felt equal pleasure in listening to what fell from his noble friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The hon. member for Middlesex could not have considered the subject with his usual attention, and could know nothing of the real state of the country. He did not advocate the propriety of keeping up an army, in consequence of anything that had occurred in Poland, or the Netherlands, or in France, nor was he an advocate for keeping up a standing army in order to keep down and oppress the people of this country; to military government he had as great an objection as the hon. member for Middlesex; but for the purpose of preserving the peace, and securing the property of the country, a sufficient military force, in aid of the civil power, under existing circumstances, was absolutely necessary. There could not possibly be either peace or security in a kingdom where protection was not afforded to the persons and property of its inhabitants. We might boast of our liberty, but of what value was liberty without security? He had been for some time a resident in a disturbed part of the country, and had had an opportunity of observing it narrowly; he had taken some pains, by inquiring from the most intelligent and respectable persons of all classes, to endeavour to ascertain the cause of those disturbances, and he could not avoid saying, that he should have rejoiced had Ministers thought it desirable to inquire into them. They were most disgraceful and dangerous; they had carried fire and destruction into many parts of the country, and had separated and estranged the peasant from his natural and his real protector, the proprietor of the soil. When he said that he should have rejoiced at inquiry, he meant not the interminable inquiry which would have gone into all the various causes to which the changes had been attributed; but a tangible inquiry, which would have enabled the House to see how far they really originated in distress —what occasioned that distress—what difference existed in the wages in different parts of the country as compared with each other, and as compared with those of former years? Such an inquiry would have been beneficial, inasmuch as the information obtained might have enabled the House to apply a remedy, or at least to have formed a proper judgment in re-
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gard to the nature and origin of the disease. It had been generally stated, that the distress of the poorer classes was the cause of the disturbances. He admitted that that excuse might justly be made in some parts of England. Distress had undoubtedly been in some degree instrumental in giving rise to feelings hostile to the best interests of the country, and had driven the people—he would not say to despair—but had occasioned discontented and irritated feelings in the hearts of the lower classes of society. But while he admitted that distress had been in some places the cause of the disturbances, he could not allow it to have been the only, or even the principal cause; for, in truth, at the moment the riots broke out there was less distress than had previously existed, owing to the late good harvest. The truth was, the lower orders had been tampered with, excited to act as they had done—they had been taught to read, but had not been taught how to profit by education. In saying this, he wished not to be misunderstood. He did not object to the education of the people, for which he was as much an advocate as any gentleman in the House,—but the people had been trained to read, and in every little pothouse throughout the country, some of those inflammatory publications, that were so common and so numerous, were met with: and this he maintained, had been one great cause of the discontent which prevailed in the country. The poison had been administered, but the antidote had nowhere been provided—the people had been taught that the distress had arisen from the taxes, and the government had been assailed as the cause, not only out of doors, but even by Members of that House, but nowhere had the people been taught to understand, that if the Government were overturned to-morrow their distress would be ten times greater than it ever had been. He was convinced that what he stated was to be considered as one of the causes which had most materially assisted to break the links of that chain which had hitherto held the landlord and tenant, and the labourer together. What was it but discontent, which had been encouraged in the minds of the lower orders by violent inflammatory publications, which had severed this connexion? How was it that the peasantry no longer looked up to their landlords as their natural heads and protectors? Some

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persons attributed the disturbances to conspiracy, but they had not the characteristic marks of conspiracy. Like the cholera, spreading from the east over the fairest lands of the north, the contagion had passed the channel from revolutionary France, and from these had carried the disease, desire of change, through our once happy and contented people. He knew that in various parts of the country the landed proprietors and the clergy were pointed at, in common with the Government, as the oppressors of the lower classes, and he regretted to say, that in too many cases, even the middle classes had lent themselves to this false and shameful delusion; whilst in other parts of the country the farmers had come forward in the handsomest manner possible to lend their aid in putting down the disturbances; but the utmost injustice had been done to the landholders and clergymen of this country, who were condemned for keeping up the rents and the tithes, as if, even did they desire it, they had the power to augment them. It was not the landed proprietors who kept up the rents. It was not the seller, but the buyer who named the price. If any person had an estate in the market, and he was offered a certain price for it, it was not for him to say "I will take less— you shall have the estate for less than you offer." The landed proprietors were not in fault for there were few estates now let for which the landlords could not get the same rents were they again in the market. Such had been, and still was, the competition amongst the farmers. In this way the distress amongst the labourers was in some degree to be accounted for. The farmers were so desirous of becoming tenants, that they did in some cases, no doubt, agree to give rents beyond what the market-price of agricultural produce would perhaps justify, and in order to bring themselves home, they paid for labour less, perhaps, than they ought to do, and this they were enabled to. effect, from the superabundant population to be found in most parts of the country. But the landed proprietors were not to blame for this, they found so many persons ready to give for their estates the rent at which they might be valued, that it was not to be expected that they should propose to receive less. He knew one case, in which a gentleman, a friend of his, offered all his tenants to take their farms off their
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hands, but not one of them would consent to the arrangement, and, at the same time, they refused to come forward and meet the difficulties of the times. In some instances the tenants had behaved admirably; but in others they had encouraged the lower orders to believe that their distresses arose from the high rate of rent and tithes, and had most unjustifiably called on the landlords and the clergy to come forward and reduce them, as if they were the oppressors of the labourer—thus holding them up to public indignation. He felt confident, that, if inquiry were made, it would be found that, in those parishes where there were resident gentry, less distress and fewer outrages had existed, than in those where the peasantry were immediately and exclusively under the control of the tenantry. For this reason, among others, he wished that a Committee of the House should have been appointed to inquire into the causes of the outrages. With respect to tithes, although he regretted as much as any man this system of paying the clergy, for it oftentimes placed in collision the parties of all others that ought to be on the best of terms—the pastor and his flock; and, moreover, it was an impediment to improvement; yet it must be admitted that the tithes were as much the property of the clergy as the land was of the proprietor; and when a man bought or rented an estate, he knowingly did it subject to the payment of tithes. But the truth was, the clergy in general did not get by any means that to which they were entitled. Nor could tithes justly be considered as bearing on the price of agricultural labour; for, if they did, bow happened it that, in those parts where estates were tithe free, the labourers were paid the same rate of wages as in those where estates were subject to tithes? However, be the cause of distress what it might, he most unreservedly asserted, that the country required the utmost attention on the part of both landlords and tenants, in order that it might be restored to tranquillity; and on that account he rejoiced that the House was so soon to separate, being convinced that at that moment the residence of country gentlemen on their properties was of the utmost consequence, and might be of the greatest advantage. He was no alarmist, nor did he wish to create alarm in the minds of others; on the contrary, he would impart that conviction which he felt, that there was still a

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good spirit in the country, which would eventually enable us to overcome our difficulties; but it was impossible to conceal that they were very great, —and in order to surmount them, great exertions would be necessary on the part of the landed proprietors, and of the Government; the hands of which should be strengthened, by suppressing, for the time at least, all party feelings, or that desirable result could not be attained. The remedy for all the distress was comprised in one word, "employment." If any possible means could be devised which would ensure employment to the lower classes, it would be the means of restoring tranquillity to the country. How that employment was to be obtained, was the question. For his part, he would rather see some great national undertaking, such as railroads from one end of England to the other; he would rather see palaces built, he would, as had been before said, rather see holes dug and filled up again, than that any of the labouring classes should remain unemployed; but, without resorting to such measures, surely some means of employment equally beneficial to all parties might be discovered. It always had appeared to him an astonishing inconsistency, that there should be unemployed hands, and unoccupied lands. He might be told that these lands would not pay for bringing into cultivation—calculating like merchants, this, perhaps, was true; but if apportioned in small lots, they would give both food and employment to the poor. He was convinced, that as long as they remained in a state of idleness, the country, never could return to that state of repose which was so ardently to be desired, and so necessary to its happiness. He had been induced to say thus much, because then, unfortunately, the real state of the country was not known to the House; at all events, it could not be known to the hon. member for Middlesex, when he proposed a reduction of 20,000 men from an army already too weak to ensure that security and protection in person and property which every man had a right to expect under a well-regulated Government.
Mr. Robert Gordonwas not surprised at the observations made by the hon. Baronet, the member for Newcastle. For a long series of years the hon. Baronet had always supported the necessity of keeping up the military establishments of
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the country; and he was, therefore, not at all astonished that on the present occasion he had pursued the same course. He had never feared the consequences of our foreign relations, and at the present moment they appeared to require a smaller military establishment than at any previous time. We had formed, on principle, an alliance with France, and it was impossible to suppose that anything could happen to disturb that alliance. The hon. Baronet talked rather strangely about Poland, and Naples, and other continental States. This year, too, we had heard a vast deal about the state of our colonies; and hon. Members had asked, "What are we to do with them? You must keep up a standing army to preserve them." And then they talked about the direful state of the country. But if the hon. Baronet could prevail on Government —no doubt his opinions would have great weight on the subject—if the hon. Member could prevail on his Majesty's Ministers to consider how far this distress could be mitigated, such mitigation would prevent the necessity of resorting to any other measures. The noble Lord was, in his opinion, quite correct in stating that the argument of the noble personage, who now sat on the Woolsack, was addressed to the King's Speech, because the words of the Speech were, that his Majesty placed at the discretion of Parliament all his hereditary revenues without reserve; and the noble Lord argued that those words included the revenues of the Duchy of Lancaster—at least, so he understood that noble individual. What fell from the noble Lord the other night would have more effect in quelling the disturbances than any military force that could be raised; nor could he help thinking that if the provisions of the bill, usually called Peel's Bill, could be mitigated, that it would relieve the distresses of the people in a great degree. He did not, in speaking of the manner in which the Estimates were produced, propose that the House should go on the system of voting one year in advance, but he suggested that it would be advantageous, on the 1st of July, to move for three-fourths of the ensuing year.
Mr. Attwoodobserved, that the hon. and gallant Officer, and the hon. Baronet had said, that the increase of the Army was necessary in consequence of the insubordination manifested in foreign

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nations. But, when he heard from the hon. member for Newcastle, that a reduction of taxation on so small a scale as to be of no real importance, is all that the country could expect, he could not but beg the noble Lord to consider what object he could hope to attain by any such retrenchment. If the benefit given to the country by retrenchment be met by increased expenses, by adding to the military establishment of the country, was it not the grossest delusion on the part of his Majesty's Government to hold out any expectation of relief, which they said they could not give without endangering the public safety? In the fifteenth year of peace, the House was called upon to increase the standing army of the country. For what purpose? Was it to enable the Government to make head against the people? or to enable a course of inquiry to be pursued which had been neglected by the Government—a course of inquiry which the noble Lord himself would hardly undertake to say, in his place in the House, he did not think to be materially connected with the interests of the country? Neither the noble Lord, nor any one of his colleagues would deny that an inquiry into the effect of the alterations in the value of money was most intimately and immediately connected with the state of danger and difficulty in which the country was placed. He could but regret that his Majesty's Ministers should pursue their present course. He would tell the noble Lord, that it could be proved to demonstration that the unfortunate measure of the alteration in the currency was at the bottom of all our present distress. He did not think that his Majesty's Ministers could make any improvement in the state of the country by retrenchment. When the noble Lord returned an answer to the question he had recently put, if his Majesty's Ministers meant to institute an inquiry, intimately connected with the most essential interests of the country— when he put that question he was accused of being deficient in precision. But it was not his object to shew that the course to which he had referred was intimately and essentially connected with the difficulties of the country; he only wished Ministers to point out the course of proceeding by which they meant to relieve the distress. He regretted to have received such an answer. If an inquiry were instituted into the fact, he was con-
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vinced that it would be found capable of being proved to demonstration, that the distress was wholly, or if not altogether, at least in a great measure, to be attributed to the change in the standard of the currency. It certainly would be competent to his Majesty's Ministers to institute an inquiry into the subject, nor ought they to consider the difficulty attendant on such a course as any excuse for not doing so. He was aware that there was great difficulty; but that was no reason why it should not be persevered in. Looking to the state in which the country was placed,—looking to the universal pauperism which existed,—the condition of the agricultural districts, and the poverty of the Exchequer of the country—he did not think that a proper time to move for an increase of the army.
Lord Althorpadmitted, that it had been stated to be the opinion of the Government that the distress was only to be relieved by reform and retrenchment. But, upon looking into the financial condition of the country, he believed that, by altering in some instances the pressure of taxation, and in others by increasing the ultimate amount of the Revenue—not by increasing, but by diminishing the taxes, the Ministers would be able to effect a very considerable relief of the distress. Upon comparing the state of the country at different periods with its present state, and the amount of taxation at these periods with its present amount, he was convinced that the taxation was by no means of such an amount, or of such a nature, as not to afford a reasonable prospect of relieving the distress by retrenchment, and by an alteration of the pressure of the taxes. It had been said, that Sir R. Peel's bill had been a cause of the distress—he would not deny that it had had some such effect; but it was necessary to look to the consequences which would now follow from any change of, that measure. What would be the result if this great commercial country were left without any fixed standard of value? To what had all the mischief now felt been originally owing, but to the depreciation of the standard of value, and to repeated tamperings with the currency? At the time when that depreciation took place, there was no intention to reduce the currency. But to do so advisedly, was the declared intention of the hon. Gentleman. But such a proposition had never been

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carried into effect in any country without producing the most disastrous consequences. It was a measure to which his Majesty's Ministers would never accede. They would endeavour by all possible means (as they had explained) to relieve the distress; but should they fail to effect that, he (Lord Althorp) would not be the man to recommend that House to tamper with the currency.
An hon. Member (who stood under the Gallery, and whose name we could not ascertain) thought, that Ministers would be authorised in calling for a still further increase of the Army. He agreed with an hon. Member who had said, that the proposed increase would not be sufficient. But he was convinced that any fresh change of the currency would lead to anarchy, which the advisers of a depreciation would deplore too late. He knew that the noble Lord opposite (Lord Althorp) stood in a situation of particular difficulty; but he gave him credit for sincerity of intention. He wished, however, to put a question, which he hoped would not be considered out of order. He did not expect a satisfactory answer, and he would put the question solely for the purpose of suggesting to the noble Lord an arrangement which would embrace both retrenchment and reform; for which latter, on moderate principles, he was an advocate. He begged leave to ask the noble Lord, whether it was intended to adopt a measure which had often been recommended, and which would do more for the country than even reform, he meant the total separation of the political from the judicial functions of the Lord Chancellor?
Mr. Attwoodconsidered that the noble Lord (Althorp) trifled with his own understanding, when he allowed himself to believe that the Administration would be able to relieve the distresses effectually by any measures of retrenchment. When the noble Lord spoke of the evils which would result from another change in the currency, he omitted to look at the other side of the question. He did not consider the evils that would result from leaving it in its present state.
Mr. Briscoesaid, that he, for one, regretted to hear of an increase of the Army, for he had expected a reduction; yet he still more regretted to hear, that the increase was necessary to keep his Majesty's subjects in submission to the Government.
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He understood from the noble Lord, that the present Administration would act on the principle which the circumstances of the times require—that is, be governed by the public opinion; and in that principle he had supposed the difference between them and their predecessors to consist. But he almost feared that their greatest difficulties would arise from their mistaking the temper of the times. The county which he had the honour to represent was restored to tranquillity. It had been recently disturbed; but it was restored to peace by means of the constitutional force of the country—the constabulary. He was pleased that he could yield the Administration his support upon the principles which they professed, but he felt bound to protest against the present proceeding. On the part of his constituents, he would not consent to the application of this money to the increase of the army.
" Non tali auxilia nee defensoribus istis
Tempus eget."
If the present constabulary force was insufficient, it ought to be increased, and public tranquillity maintained by the force which the Constitution recognised.
O'Gorman Mahonhad not expected to hear, from an English county Member, such observations as had fallen from the hon. Member who had just sat down. He regretted to hear from that hon. Gentleman what was so much calculated to diminish the confidence of the people in that House. The tendency of the hon. Gentleman's speech was to intimate that the Ministers had neglected their pledges, and that those who supported them in that House forfeited the public confidence. The House had heard, no doubt, with great satisfaction, that the county which the hon. Gentleman represented was restored to tranquillity. But he would ask, did it appear that all the other counties of the kingdom would be tranquillised by the constabulary? Were not some of these counties in a state approaching to insurrection, despite of the civil force? More than fifty Members of that House had obtained leave to go into their respective districts on account of the failure of that force to maintain order. When applications had been made to that House to send bayonets to the people of his unfortunate country—when they asked for food, and received pills of lead—when they wanted the miserable potatoes with which

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they had been satisfied, nothing was then said against the increase of the army by the hon. member for Surrey. In the present state of this country, it was not a departure from economy, but the contrary, to add 6,000 men to the army. But the hon. member for Middlesex recommended, that, instead of adding 6,000 soldiers, they should reduce 20,000. What! in a time of distress, immediately occasioned by the want of employment, did he think it either good economy or wise policy to throw such a number of men from the state of competence which the army affords them, discontented and destitute upon the country? Was it expedient to place such a number of men, accustomed to the. use of arms, and skilled in military discipline, in the same distress which had produced the outrages now disgracing so many parts of the country? The increase of troops had been required, not, as had been said, to put down the people, but to suppress disorder and to protect property. The means which the hon. member for Middlesex had recommended for the protection of property reminded him, (O'Gorman Mahon) of a story which he had read in his horn-book when he was a boy, respecting the town threatened with a siege. When the people deliberated as to the best means of defence, the currier recommended leather, and the carpenter wood. The hon. Gentleman proposed economy as the best means of defence against outrage, and offered to allay discontent by swelling the numbers of the discontented with 20,000 additional sufferers. He thought it not just to turn round upon such grounds, and bring a charge of breach of promise against men who were in the infancy of their Administration. He was satisfied that they would act according to their professions, and Gentlemen, by allowing them a fair trial, would, he was sure, promote the tranquillity, not only of England, but of Ireland and Scotland also.
Mr. Denisonsaid, he was glad to hear from his noble friend before him, that it was not the intention of Government to consent to a change in the currency. Such a measure might produce some temporary prosperity, but it would terminate in ruin. He lived nearer than his hon. colleague to the disturbed part of the county which he had the honour to represent, and he could assure him, that the constabulary force had not been sufficient to restore tranquillity. The prisoners
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could not have been conveyed to jail without the aid of the military. The first thing which the state of the country required was, that the present turbulence should be put down; the next thing must be to consider the case of the labouring part of the population. He was convinced that the labourers had for some time been inadequately paid, but he believed that a reduction of taxation would enable the farmers to give sufficient wages. He rejoiced in the pledges which had been given by his Majesty's present Ministers, and especially with respect to a reform of that House, which he considered the most important question of the present period. He was confident that they would redeem their pledges, and act upon their professions. If they did so, they should have all the support he could give them.
Mr. Briscoesaid, that what had fallen from his hon. colleague only served to confirm his opinion, that an increase of the army was unnecessary. The insufficiency of wages having been the cause of the discontent, as his hon. friend in a great measure admitted, the removal of that cause had restored tranquillity in the county of Surrey, and would have the same effect in other places.
Lord Palmerstonwas surprised that the hon. member for Surrey should entertain the opinion which he had expressed; nor was that surprise diminished, when he heard the opinion contradicted by the statement of the hon. Gentleman himself. At the same time that he described tranquillity to have been restored, he admitted the necessity of an increased constabulary to restore tranquillity, which he had just asserted already to exist. He denied that the object of the proposed increase of the Army was, as had been stated by the hon. Member under the Gallery (Mr. Attwood), to keep down the people. The object was, to protect the property of those who had a right to expect protection from the Government. Looking to the state of the southern counties, in which much had been done to excite those who were labouring under distress and privations, he would say, that some precaution on the part of Government was necessary for the protection of property. He agreed that the constabulary was the best force to be employed to put down domestic disorder: but yet those persons who submitted to the severe inconvenience of acting in that body for the preservation of

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the peace, could not be expected to do every duty, and necessarily required the assistance of an organized force. It could not be supposed that the addition of 4,000 or 5,000 more to the Army would be sufficient to supersede the necessity of employing a large constabulary, which the increase of the military was only intended to assist.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanexpressed his opinion, that the noble Lord would never be able to allay the public distress by mere reduction of taxation.
Resolution agreed to.

REGENCY BILL.
The Report on this Bill was brought up, and several verbal Amendments were agreed to.
The Attorney Generalmoved, as an Amendment, that in the event of the death of her present Majesty and the remarriage of the King, this Bill should then come to an end, cease and be void.
Clause agreed to.

JUDGMENT AND EXECUTION BILL.
Sir James Scarlettmoved the second reading of the Judgment and Execution Bill, on which—
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that as it was past twelve o'clock, and as there was a whole handful of legal bills to be forwarded, he should move that the second reading of the Bill should be postponed till to-morrow.
Sir C. Wetherellseconded the Amendment.
The Attorney Generalhoped, that the hon. and learned Member would not delay, by any unnecessary opposition, the business of the House. The Bill was founded on the Report of the Law Commissioners, and ought to be passed.
Mr. Campbellthought it would be desireable at that late hour to postpone the discussion. The Bills were of consequence; they made considerable alteration in the law, and could not be passed as a matter of course.
Sir James Scarlettthought it was highly wrong for one or two individuals to stop the business of the House. The measure was of importance, and if passed before next Term would remedy a serious inconvenience.
Lord Althorphoped, that the hon. and learned Member would not persist in his Motion, as it would occasion great public inconvenience.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusonsaid, the Bill was
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before the House last year. He understood that there was no objection to it, and therefore he hoped that the opposition to its going through a stage then would be withdrawn.
The House divided—For the Adjournment 1; Against it 41—Majority 40.
On the main question being put,
Mr. O'Connellmoved the Adjournment of the House.
Sir J. Scarlettopposed it, as contrary to the dignity and consequence of the House to allow itself to be defeated by one individual.
Lord Althorprecommended the hon. and learned Gentleman to postpone the Bill.
Sir James Scarlettconsented.
Mr. Ruthvensaid, it ought not to be forced on at that hour.
Sir J. Scarlettexplained, that he did not want to force it on.
Bill ordered to be read a second time the next day.

CONTINUATION OF PATENTS—IRISH MAGISTRACY.
Lord AlthorpOn the Motion of Lord Althorp, leave was given to bring in a Bill for extending the Commission of the Peace in Ireland for a certain time. His Lordship explained, that this Bill was necessary, as the Commissions would expire on the 26th instant, and Ireland would be left without a magistracy.
O'Gorman Mahonsaid, that the noble Lord would confer a great benefit on Ireland by allowing the Commissions to expire, and so put an end to the present race of Justices.
Bill, under the title of Patents Continuation Bill, brought in and read a first time.