Commons Sitting of 9 December 1830

MINUTES.
New Writs. For the Borough of Newport, in the room of Mr. DOHERTY, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds:—For the Borough of St. Germains, in the room of the right hon. Sir H. HARDINGE, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
The Committee appointed to try the merits of the Petition of Herbert Baldwin, esq., of the City of Cork, complaining of an undue Return and Election for that City, reported Mr. DANIEL O'CALLAGHAN duly elected; and that neither the Petition nor the opposition thereto was vexatious or frivolous.
Petitions presented. Against Slavery, by Sir J. OWES, from the Methodists and other Congregations in various parts of the County of Brecon:—By Mr. KEMP, from a Parish in Sussex:—By Mr. W. PATTEN, from Mile-end-street Chapel, Liverpool, and from different parts of Lancashire:—By Mr. J. WOOD, five from places in Lancashire:—By Mr. EVANS, three from places in Derbyshire:— By Mr. ROBARTS, from Maudstone:—By Mr. PONSONBY, from Wimborne. By Mr. HODGES, from George Gunning, for an amendment of the Law regulating the Duties of Parochial Officers. By Mr. BUCKE, from Biddeford and Exeter, praying for a Repeal of the Duty on Coals; also from Exeter, against Hawkers and Pedlars. By Sir W. INGILBY, from Wm. Cobbett, for the repeal of the Assessed Taxes and Tithes. By Mr. O'CORMAN MAHON, from Drumline, county Clare, against assessing Catholics to pay Rates for Protestant Churches. By Mr. O'CONNELL, from W. S. Smith, a Chelsea pensioner, complaining of the stoppage of 5 per Cent out of the Chelsea Pension, and praying relief; from J. Thompson, the son of a freeman of Clonmell, complaining that he was unable to take out his Freedom, in consequence of the great expense; praying for Legislative Relief, from 105 Labourers, who had been driven, under the Subletting Act, from the neighbourhood of Tankerstown, in the County of Limerick; from the Inhabitants of Ardragoole, and three other places, for the Repeal of the Subletting Act; from Whitechurch, for the establishment of Poor-laws in Ireland; from the five Catholic Clergymen who had charge of the Chapel of Navan, in the County of Meath, against the Vestry Act; for a Reform in Parliament, from Ayr, and from two Societies of Friends to Reform, meeting at the Rotunda, Blackfriars road; from the Trades of Dublin, and from places in the Counties of Waterford, Kilkenny, Meath, Galway, and Dublin, for the Repeal of the Union; and from the Gentlemen of the Irish Bar, practising on the Galway Circuit, for an extension of the Elective Franchise in that Town. By Mr. J. WOOD, from Roscommon, for placing the Catholics and Protestants on the same footing in Corporate Towns as to the Elective Franchise; from Blackburn, for the Repeal of the Stamp Duties on Newspapers; and for Church Reform, from the Rev. T. Spencer.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Mr. O'Connellpresented a Petition from the parish of St. Michael, North Petherstone, in favour of Parliamentary Reform. The petitioners wished that Rotten Boroughs
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should be entirely done away, and he contended that no reform would be completed which left one rotten borough in the country, and which did not introduce ballot.
The Marquis of Blandfordseized the opportunity to express his great regret at the language which had been used by his Majesty's new Minister upon the subject of Parliamentary Reform—language which, though, perhaps, more prudent, was, to his mind, nearly as disheartening as was the language of his immediate predecessor. The great reformer of 1793, the man who laid upon the Table of that House that ever-memorable petition, which had been quoted with his name, as its author, ten thousand times all over the country—was it possible that he could have said this question now required much time and deliberation, particularly after declaring that he never would support the principles of universal suffrage—in which determination he (Lord Blandford) entirely agreed with him—and that he wished to stand as much as he could upon the settled institutions of his country, in which desire he also most fully concurred. How, then, could the Minister at the same time say that the task was one of no slight difficulty now. Then the close and rotten boroughs wore to be extinguished and annihilated for ever. Had the Constitution been unlearnt since that time? Were the disciples of this great master now to be told that he had not yet made up his mind upon the subject, that he could only talk "generally" upon that which used to be considered as his favourite hobby—that delay was necessary—that great consideration was necessary—and that the whole question was surrounded with no small difficulty? If the close and rotten boroughs were to be preserved, or if any of them were to be kept, then he (Lord Blandford) could understand how the question was full of difficulty. But if the principles of the petition of the friends of the people in 1793 were to be adhered to, and none short of these will, or ought to, satisfy the country—then he could see no difficulty in the matter, no cause for delay, which must be dangerous in the present momentous state of the kingdom. It was for these considerations that he did feel it to be his first and paramount duty to appear in his place last Tuesday evening, with the intention of lending his feeble support to the motion of the hon.

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and learned Member for Waterford. He regretted exceedingly that the hon. Member had abandoned the field to others— the more so when he called to mind the character of the proceedings of the committee on the Calne election; and when he reflected upon occurrences of a similar character at the election which had just taken place at Knaresborough. He would confess, that the unfortunate proceedings connected with these two boroughs under Whig domination were sufficient to excite in his mind considerable distrust and apprehension that the reform which was promised would ultimately prove far from satisfactory to the country. Reform, very extensive reform, was loudly called for, and must be conceded to the public voice. The delay of a single day was dangerous. With the delay would increase the demands. That which would have satisfied the country twelve months ago, had it been conceded, would not satisfy it now. What would satisfy the people this day would not satisfy them a month hence. There were two measures which appeared to him to require instant adoption, for the security of the country and its best interests. The first— reform, immediate, extensive, radical; the second, the no less speedy reduction of all payments and salaries to the scale of 1792. These payments had all been raised in consequence of the depreciation in the value of money. Now, when that money had been most fraudulently, ruinously, and, he would maintain, treasonably, raised to its former value, all payments and salaries—ay, and every other monied obligation of the country, must be reduced to their former value. If these things were not done, and that speedily, he would tell the present Ministers (from whom he really wished to hope for many measures of great reform and retrenchment, and towards whom, in making this declaration, he was not animated by any feelings of hostility)—he would tell them, nevertheless, that if these things were not done without delay, the country would be lost, the Crown would not be safe upon their Royal master's head, and they themselves would be implicated in the treason.
Mr. O'Connell,on presenting three other petitions in favour of reform, said, that he considered the project of reform which had been contemplated by the learned Lord, to whom the noble Marquis (Blandford) alluded, was not sufficient.
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He thought that men, and not houses, ought to be represented in the Commons House of Parliament. Although he (Mr. O'Connell) hoped that the Government would of itself bring forward some measure of reform, yet he would then give notice, that, if it did not immediately, he would bring forward a motion on the subject three days before the vacation. But should Ministers themselves propose any measure, which would not be a mere delusion, but which would be calculated to give the House its true character, as really representing the people, and honestly watching over their interests, he would support them to the utmost of his ability. If the subject should be longer delayed by Government, he would bring on his motion and divide the House, if he had no other support than that of the noble Lord who had last spoken. It was unnatural that the money of the people should be voted away in a House, the majority of which was nominated by the House of Lords. By no means without the ballot was it possible to prevent that nomination in the present state of these countries; and he could not believe that mode of voting would be opposed by any man but by those who desired to maintain the influence of the aristocracy over the votes of the people.
Sir Robert Wilsonsaid, he felt it imperative upon him to contradict the assertion of the hon. and learned Member who had imputed bad motives to all who did not profess to hold the same opinions with himself. The learned Gentleman had chosen to denounce as insincere and dishonest the avowed opinions of men whose whole public lives had proved their integrity to be quite equal to that of the member for Waterford himself. The ballot was opposed by Gentlemen who had come into that House with the sanction of their constituents for that opposition. In the House they did no more than maintain the opinions which they had professed out of it. It was well known, that in the United States of America the ballot had proved to be a deception—a cloak—and encouragement to corruption. By the privacy which it secured, it induced men to sell their votes. The most honourable men had pronounced the ballot to be fallacious and injurious; and, at this moment, there was more fraud practised in those States of America in. which the votes were concealed by ballot, than in those in which they were given

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openly. When the New States of Mexico were about to institute a Republic, and some of their wisest and best patriots deliberated upon the best mode of taking votes, the ballot was rejected. When the hon. and learned Member ventured to impugn the integrity of men as honourable as himself, and as attached to liberty, he arrogated to himself a license to which he had no title. For his part, he (Sir R. Wilson) had, he believed, throughout his life, done quite as much as the learned Gentleman for the advancement of freedom; and he, therefore, could not suffer such accusations, which applied to him, to pass unanswered. While he had the honour of a seat in that House, he would not allow any Gentleman's reproaches to daunt him, nor would he suffer any man to direct him in the discharge of his duty. He would be influenced only by a conscientious regard for the interests of his constituents.
Mr. Cresset Pelhamwished the question of the ballot to be fairly discussed. As yet he had heard in that House no cogent argument against it; but he did not say that his own opinion respecting it was decided. The times would admit of no delay in the consideration of Reform, and he hoped, that if the Gentlemen on the other side of the House did not bring that subject forward, the Gentlemen below him (on the Opposition Benches) would do so. At the same time he was quite willing to allow for due deliberation before they resolved upon the measure to be proposed.
Mr. Ruthvensaid, that in his judgment, the member for Waterford (Mr. O'Connell) had expressed himself on that evening with a moderation which it would do him honour to observe more generally, both in that House and in Ireland. He was sorry to see him often misapply the great talents which he was well known to possess; but he (Mr. Ruthven) was of opinion, that on that evening an unbecoming violence had been exhibited, in the reply which had been a few minutes ago made to some remarks of that hon. and learned Gentleman.. No man in that House differed more widely than he did from some of the opinions of the member for Waterford. But still he would say, that the hon. and learned Gentleman had not said anything which ought to be considered offensive.—[Sir R. Wilson. He did]—He (Mr. Ruthven) did not hear a word from him that could
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offend any man: but he did hear a violent speech from an hon. and gallant Member, which seemed to him (Mr. Ruthven) quite uncalled for. The hon. and gallant Member had made up his mind with sufficient decision respecting the ballot; and to him (Mr. Ruthven) it was matter of surprise the gallant General had not made up his mind on a subject of great importance to his constituents, which had been a few evenings since discussed in that House— he meant the Civil List. He would not have it imagined that he doubted the honour of those Gentlemen, who, now sitting opposite, had voted in support of the late Administration. He was sure that their motives were honourable, and that they voted conscientiously. He wished men who had a duty to perform to those who sent them into that House to come forward and vote as they thought right on such important questions: and he had no doubt that the gallant Member would explain to the satisfaction of his constituents, why, on the discussion of the Civil List, he had been absent. Although he thought, that the ballot would afford to voters a protection of which they stood in need, yet he was prepared to confide in the present Ministers, and he doubted not that they would redeem their pledge on the subject of Reform.
Mr. Grove Pricesupported the petition, and expressed his regret that the learned Lord, of whose talents that House had lately been deprived, had not taken an opportunity of bringing forward a Motion on the subject. He regretted too that the hon. and learned Member for Waterford had not brought forward his motion, for though he differed in many particulars form the learned Lord, and the hon. and learned Member, he was satisfied that the time was come when the question of Reform must be set at rest by conceding it.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that as he had seen the hon. and gallant Officer, who had been for a long time, he believed, member for Southwark, go out of the House before he (Mr. O'Connell) had an opportunity of replying to the remarks made upon him by that gallant Member, he waited until the last moment on the question before the House, in expectation of his return. As the gallant Officer did not return, he would, in his absence say a very few words on the subject. He should not imitate the speech

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of the gallant Officer, because it was characterised by a temper which he wished to avoid, and by great lack of argument. He denied, that he had said anything to provoke such an attack. He had certainly said, that those who opposed the ballot did so from a desire to maintain an influence over the votes of the people. He would ask, did the gallant Member mean to assert that those who desire to influence voters are dishonourable men? Was it not the fact, that men of the highest character in the country defended such influence on the part of the aristocracy, and insisted that it was indispensable to the well-being of the country. He did not feel himself called on to answer the speech of the gallant Member. His speech contained no one argument. What was meant by the assertion that the ballot was un-English? Was it to be called un-English because it would put it out of the power of any man to say to a tradesman, in soliciting his vote, "Unless you vole for me, you shall lose the custom of twenty families?" Was it un-English because it would at once remove the cruel and ambitious landlord from the temptation to punish the children of the voter for the honesty of their father, and drive whole families houseless upon the world? He (Mr. O'Connell) need not boast of what he had done for his country. He would let his acts speak for him. But he would say, that when the hon. and gallant General should have done for his country as much good as he might, without boasting, say he had done for Ireland, he would listen to his taunts without displeasure. Had he said anything which could reasonably offend, he would most willingly retract it. The cause of those who opposed the ballot could derive no benefit from such aid as the gallant Officer had offered to it; and it was needless for him to say more in refutation of a speech in which he had been so unprovokedly attacked.
Petition laid on the Table.

REPEAL OF THE UNION—PERSONALITIES.
O'Gorman Mahonsaid, that the Petition which he had the honour to present, was that of the inhabitants of Clondegad, in the county of Clare, praying that the Act of Union of Great Britain and Ireland be rescinded, and attributing to that measure the deep distress which at present prevailed in every part of Ireland. In moving that the petition be
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brought up, he would throw himself on the indulgence of the House whilst he said a few words respecting a matter in. which he was personally concerned. In such a case he would not occupy the House, if it were not one in which all the Members were equally interested with himself. For if a system of calumny and misrepresentation out of doors were not at once put down by exposure in that House, no hon. Member could defend himself against such attacks. If any man came forward in a bold and straightforward manner to impugn his conduct, he would cheerfully endeavour to satisfy him. As that was the first time he had had the honour of addressing the House, he hoped for that lenity which was usually conceded to new Members, and which, in his peculiar case, would be more especially needed, as he should feel himself under the necessity of trespassing upon their patience and indulgence at greater length than was customary upon the presentation of a petition, having to vindicate himself from a charge under which no Member of that House could permit his character to rest. As the circumstances to which he should find it necessary to advert involved a very heavy personal charge, he hoped, as a boon, that a hearing might be granted him, which, under different circumstances, he might claim under another denomination. The injurious attack upon his character to which he alluded, and which injured him both as a public and as a private individual, had been carried on under the mask of secret correspondence—a mode of attack, he was happy to think, as little recognised by the laws of that House as it was by the usages of respectable society out of doors. Though he might not be prepared to name the person who had been guilty of that false and scandalous attack upon his reputation, yet he was able to proceed thus far:—He was able to affirm, that a Member of that House was the guilty individual. He therefore trusted, that, as his place in Parliament was the proper situation from which a Member of that House should defend himself, the House would at least feel he was asking it to do no more than extend to him that indulgence which was due to a man who came fairly, openly, and above-board, to protect himself from charges dishonourable to those who preferred them, and deeply degrading to any man who could silently submit to

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the imputations they conveyed. Yet, notwithstanding all this, he should scarcely feel himself justified in addressing them at the length he intended, were it not that what he had to say involved an important principle, and one which interested every hon. Gentleman in that House. That of which he had to complain was put forth by means of ambiguous insinuations—put forth to the public through the medium of the newspapers. He felt that some apology was due to that House for seeking to make it the means of repelling an attack made outside its walls, but when it was recollected that he could—as he pledged himself he could—establish at that bar, by the most irrefragable proofs, that the correspondence in question proceeded, and could proceed from no one but a Member of that House, it was upon that ground chiefly that the sympathy, he hoped, would be extended to him, which, in similar circumstances, he should be most proud and happy to extend to others who might have occasion to rebut charges most false and injurious, or to vindicate their characters from imputations the most unworthy and discreditable. Besides those he had mentioned—any one of which would have been more than sufficient to plead his justification for trespassing upon the indulgence of the House—he could not but recollect that he was there, not alone the guardian of his personal rights, or to vindicate his private reputation—he stood there as the Representative of a great county, and that he should ill discharge the duty he owed to the constituents who sent him there, did he not repel with indignation the charges which had been conveyed through the channels to which he alluded. It had been charged against him, that upon a late important occasion there was some portion of his conduct which had been governed by the influence of the then existing Administration—that, in a word, he had been guided by the Treasury influence of the late Administration. That was a sort of charge to meet which it behoved him, not merely as an individual—not alone as the Representative of a great county, but for the sake of the other Members of that House; and it was therefore in an especial degree that he claimed their indulgence. He would repeat, too, that that was the proper place for him to do it, seeing that he had no alternative but to adopt that course, or engage in a paper war. Having premised
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thus much, and having stated generally the nature of the accusation which he had to meet, he would call upon the Member in question to get up in his place to repeat the allegation referred to, and bring forward proofs, if any he possessed. He defied that Member to the proof—he defied him to show that the charge was not a gross, deliberate, wilful falsehood. As he felt that the rules of that House did not permit him there to impute deliberate and wilful falsehood to any Member, yet he had not been prevented from contradicting it in another place, and in a different form. Now, as that Member had been apprised that such language was applied to him if he disregarded the opportunity which the present occasion afforded him of standing up in his place to defend himself, that Member must feel that he stood in a very invidious situation. [cries of "name, name.!"] He came there for the express purpose of bringing the name, and, if possible, the man before them. [laughter, and cries of" Order."]
Mr. Warburtonsaid, it was equally out of order for the hon. Member to allude to disorderly language spoken or written by him out of doors, as if it were actually uttered within the walls of that House. To adopt that which was out of order, was tantamount to a breach of order.
O'Gorman Mahonresumed:—He was perfectly ready to receive instructions from any hon. Member as to the observance of order in that House; he was, as they all must know, utterly inexperienced in the forms of the House, but he begged to call attention to this, that he had not there said a Member had resorted to a deliberate and wilful falsehood; he merely stated the fact, that he had so written out of doors, and he had no difficulty in asserting, that the Member alluded to would be acting a most pusillanimous part if he did not instantly avow himself in that House as the author of the publication complained of. Surely he was not out of order in referring to what occurred elsewhere, when he did not repeat it in the House in a disorderly form. He merely stated that strong declaration of falsehood as to the charge made against him of lending himself to the views of the Duke of Wellington's Government. In speaking of that Government, then, he could not be open to any accusation of devoting himself to the interests of a Minister. The noble Duke and his friends were

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now out of office. Those honorable and right honorable Gentlemen were now no longer at the side of the House from which he then spoke. He could not, then, be accused of being under Treasury influence, when he tendered to the noble Duke, on his own behalf, and on behalf of the Catholic gentry of Ireland and of England, the warmest expressions of his gratitude for the been of emancipation conferred on his country, by the prevention of civil war. He made that assertion then for the purpose of more effectually branding with his contempt the charge brought against him. He had not the slightest hesitation in saying, that the Duke of Wellington had conferred a deep obligation upon men of all parties; but he begged to add to that assertion, that he never received any proposition from that Ministry, or any member of it, or any one having the remotest connection with it. He regretted exceedingly that the noble Duke had not, at the commencement of the Session, made up his mind to those measures which, being expected from the present Administration, procured for them his most hearty and cordial support. He deeply regretted that the noble Duke had not enabled himself and other independent and liberal Members to rally round the late Administration. He still more regretted that, as a Catholic, he was not enabled to demonstrate his gratitude by supporting the Administration that conferred upon the empire the great been which entitled him to a seat in that House. He was no seeker after pensions or emoluments— he was no place-hunter—he merely stood up in that House to defend his own character, his rights as a Member of Parliament, the rights of his constituents, and, finally, to express his gratitude to the head of the late Government, to whom he unhesitatingly said, that both England and Ireland were deeply indebted. He was proud to avow himself an old Agitator —he knew the state of Ireland, and he had not the slightest difficulty in affirming, that the great measure of the late Government saved the country from civil war. Yes, he was an old Agitator, because he felt deeply the disabilities under which his brethren and himself laboured. Many a time had he sat below that bar, pining under the ineligibility which excluded him from coming above it, though no act of his, or of his country, had rendered him unworthy of that honour. There was no
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stain on them as a body or as individuals, and all they prayed for was eligibility; the Duke of Wellington saved the country at a critical moment, and for that great act the noble Duke had won his warmest gratitude. He was no professional man— he was no barrister, lawyer, or attorney; he came there as an honest man, representing worthy constituents, to speak what he knew of his own knowledge, and give utterance to those feelings which any right-minded man in the country must entertain. Had the great been of emancipation been deferred, what could have saved Ireland from the horrors of civil war, with the example of France before her eyes rescued in three days, and, added to that, the example of Belgium? Subsidised, as the Irish were from America, and with examples like those on the Continent before them, what but the great measure of the noble Duke could have saved the country, especially when England herself was in a flame? Had the measure been delayed, Ireland, instead of accepting it as a boon, would have thundered at their gates and enforced it as a right. In such an event, emancipation would have been thanklessly extorted, instead of having been gratefully received as a boon, proceeding as it did, from a sense of justice and expediency. No man who was acquainted with the state of parties but must know, that if the noble Duke had not thrown himself into the scale against the Church, against the Borough-mongers, and the great anti-Catholic party in England, the measure could never have been carried. For that he felt deeply grateful to the noble Duke. Neither could he forget what was due to the right hon. Baronet who formerly represented the University of Oxford, than which a more distinguished object of ambition no man could propose to himself. He happened to have been at Oxford during the election which immediately followed upon the resignation of that right hon. Baronet, when the streets were literally blackened with the crowds of persons who came up to oppose him; and who evinced, in the manner of registering their hostility, little of that Christian charity to which they laid claim—little of that gratitude which was due from the Ministers of a peaceful religion—to bin: who had saved the country from anarchy and blood, and established in their room amity and concord. Having always ex-

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pressed those sentiments in private, he found himself all of a sudden assailed; and for no better reason than because he had not concealed them, he was to be taunted with being a Ministerial tool— with being a creature of the Treasury-bench. He was as independent of the noble Duke and the right hon. Baronet as they could possibly be of him; he was no pension-seeker and place-hunter; and while it rested with an anonymous pamphleteer to utter a deliberate— the unparliamentary phrase was always coming uppermost to his lips [a laugh and cheers] —had he not aright to complain of having his character attacked by those who were afraid to come forward and utter these charges in open day. It was a great injury to him thus to have his character filched away secretly, instead of men coining forward openly and fairly to state what they had to say. He would now, with the permission of the House, advert to one circumstance which gave something like a plausible pretext for what had been urged against him. The first vote of consequence which had been given in that House since he had the honour of a seat in it, was on the Civil List—that he had not voted on the popular side upon that question was entirely owing to his having been shut out. He was in that House till nine o'clock at night—he sat between the Hon. member for Middlesex and the hon. member for Westminster, Mr. Hobhouse and Mr. Hume [cries of "Order."] Between two such tutelary deities, it was scarcely to be supposed that he would have gone astray—it was scarcely to have been supposed that, sitting in such company, and at that side of the House, he could have supported the Duke of Wellington without being open to the charge of most arrant hypocrisy. He had been for many hours without tasting food. He asked the hon. member for Middlesex when he expected that the division would come on? The reply was, that the debate would continue for several hours yet to come. He left the House, and was back in forty minutes, but that short time sufficed to exclude him from the division. Thus it happened that he did not vote with the majority on that memorable occasion. So the fact turned out, and as it happened, he rejoiced that in the first political act of his life he was prevented, though without any previous intention on his part, from being accessory to a vote which proved
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fatal to the Government of that Minister to whom his country owed so much, and whose great measure had emancipated him and his brethren. He was sincerely glad that the matter had so occurred, merely as a gratification to his own individual feelings; but at the same time he claimed no credit to himself for the event; as it was not affected by any conduct of his. He would not much further obtrude himself upon the attention of the House, but he should ill discharge the duty he owed to them, as well as to his own sense of truth and justice, did he not, after what had fallen from him, state, that there was one Member of the House to whom his observations could not apply. He had the authority of a letter, which was not to be questioned, for stating, that there was one Member of that House who had exculpated himself from any connection with the charge in question. He had authority for stating, that he would be the last to indulge in the propagation of a calumny so utterly unworthy of any Gentleman—so wholly removed from all that could constitute the line of conduct which a Gentleman would propose to himself. The Member whom he thus wished to exempt was the hon. and learned member for Waterford, who, as he had denied the charge, he felt bound to exempt. That hon. and learned Member had come to a resolution well known to that House, and having adopted such a determination, he could not think of uttering any disrespectful epithet with reference to him. That hon. and learned Member had taken a trouble which he himself would not have taken—that of rescuing him from the charge by means of the very same medium through which it had been originally preferred. It had not been his lot to have exchanged one hundred words with that hon. and learned Gentleman during the last sixteen or eighteen months, but though he thus, upon the authority of the hon. and learned Gentleman's own denial, felt bound to exempt him from the charge, yet there did remain one Member of that House to whom his observations did fully apply, and that he begged to state openly and fairly, calling upon that Member to come forward and relieve himself from the imputation of giving rise to such a calumny as that which had been made the subject of his present observations. He would appeal to the tenor of his own short career, while he had the

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honour of a seat in that House, whether he had not been consistent, and whether he had not acted and voted in conformity with the principles which he professed? Antecedently to their coming into Office, he voted generally with those who were now the confidential advisers of the Crown. There was no ambiguity in any part of his conduct; he supported measures, not men; and the present Administration should have whatever benefit was derivable from the full confidence which he felt in them, until they should prove themselves unworthy of it by a departure from their public professions. He supported them for the liberal sentiments which had always marked the course of their public lives; he supported them as the friends of reform, retrenchment, and, above all, he supported them as maintaining the great principle in foreign policy of non-interference. Here, then, he would take his stand, and he felt gratified at being able to avail himself of that opportunity, at an early period, of expressing the confidence which he felt in the present advisers of the Crown, amongst whom he recognised the old, staunch, and consistent advocates of liberal principles. Amidst them it would be invidious to particularize; yet there was one name which he never could omit mentioning with that affection which was so justly accorded to it by all classes —he meant the venerable and beloved Bishop of Norwich. He trusted that in proceeding thus far he had not transgressed the bounds which the usages of the House set to observations made under circumstances such as his. He would, in conclusion, declare his determination to co-operate most cordially with the present Government so long as their conduct should agree with their past professions.
Petition read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

GRAND JURIES (IRELAND).
Sir John Newportrose, he said, pursuant to the notice he had given, to move several resolutions on the subject of Grand Juries in Ireland, and expressed his regret that the subject had not been taken up by some Member who could do it much more justice than was in his power. No man was more fully impressed with the great importance of this subject to Ireland, and with the necessity that some alteration should be made in the present Grand Jury system of that country; at the same
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time he felt that he had not strength sufficient to undertake the task of attempting that reform in the system which he knew to be necessary. He had, however, great satisfaction in knowing that the Government was fully impressed with the great importance of the local taxation of Ireland, and was disposed to do all in its power to remove the evils complained of. He had, therefore, the less repugnance to bring forward the subject in the absence of the right hon. the Secretary for Ireland, and were he to wait until that right hon. Gentleman should have taken his seat, it would carry the Motion much beyond that time at which it ought to be submitted to Parliament. The great importance of this subject, and the necessity of reforming the present system, had been both admitted by a Committee of that House. In the Report on the State of the Poor in Ireland, printed by order of the House in July, it was stated:—
"The Grand Juries of Ireland assembled at the Spring and Summer Assizes, in addition to their criminal functions, are intrusted with the entire civil administration of county expenditure. They levy the funds from whence the salaries of public officers, the expense of prisons, bridewells, and police are defrayed —they supply funds for the hospitals, infirmaries, lunatic asylums, and dispensaries— they decide upon making and repairing roads and bridges—they audit the accounts of all past expenditure under these several heads. Thus, the Grand Juries in Ireland are not only charged with the duties performed by the Grand Juries in England, but, in addition, exercise functions performed in this part of the empire by Magistrates at Quarter Sessions, and are intrusted with Powers reserved under the English system for the legislature only. The Grand Juries decide what works shall be undertaken—the price at which such works shall be executed—and the individuals who shall become responsible for their completion. The taxation levied for these various purposes, is raised from the actual occupiers of the land, and by collectors, who are armed with the summary power of distress and sale. At various times the subject of Grand Jury presentments has been considered, both in the House and in Select Committees. In 1815, 1816, and 1822, inquiries have been instituted from which some remedial measures have originated, but as the reports of both Houses of Parliament in 1825 specially directed the attention of the Legislature to the state of the Grand Jury laws, and as a further report was made to the same effect in 1827, your Committee feel justified in assuming that there is still an admitted necessity for a more effectual reform than has been yet applied to correct the acknowledged imperfections and abuses of the present system."
After this acknowledgement of a Select

911
Committee of the House, it was hardly necessary for him to take up any time in proving that some reform of the system was required. He should, therefore, only point out some parts of the system which, more than others, called for the immediate interposition of the Legislature. It appeared from returns which had been laid on the Table of the House, that the amount levied by Grand Juries in Ireland in 1810,was 607,000 l.; in 1821,755,000 l.; in 1825, 843,000 l.; in 1829, 845,000 l., and upwards. Thus the sums levied in about twenty years had increased upwards of 200,000 l., and such an immense amount of local taxation in a country like Ireland, called for the most serious attention of Parliament; more particularly as the whole of this revenue was raised and expended without any control whatever being exercised over it by those on whom the heaviest portion of the burthen fell. The powers of Grand Juries were originally confined to levies of rates for repairs of roads and bridges; gradually, however, they were extended to other objects, the expense of which ought properly to be borne not by the tenant or temporary occupant of the land, but by its permanent holders. The whole burthen, however, fell upon the tenant—who was not allowed to exercise any control whatever either in originating the tax or in directing its expenditure. It was a curious fact and well worth the consideration of the House, that a magistrate who had not the power to direct any expense in the county exceeding 40s. in amount, must possess a qualification of 100 l. a-year in land—while a Grand Juror, to whose power of taxation there was scarcely any limit, need possess no higher qualification than a freehold of the value of 40 s. A remedy for the defect in this part of the system might be found by altering that clause in the Act which directed the Sheriff to return the grand panel of the county. By that Act the Sheriff was directed to make, at Michaelmas, a return of persons possessed of freeholds of at least 40 s. in value, to form the grand panel, and if the qualifications for a grand juror were raised from 40 s. to 200 l. in land, it would have the effect of getting a set of men as grand jurors, whose interest it would be, not to tax the county in any case but one of necessity. One great objection to the present system of taxation, was its inequality—the occupier of bad land being rated just the same according to the
912
extent of ground, as the occupier of good land, and on this principle twenty-three men had authority to tax the county to an almost unlimited extent. He had reason to believe that it was the intention of Government to take some steps to remedy this evil, and the late Secretary for Ireland undertook to bring in a bill to regulate Grand Jury assessments. Whether the same measure was to be adopted by the present Government he knew not, but he hoped the remedy would be on an extensive scale. The present system was defective in almost every part, and could Dot be remedied by any very light measures. The reform ought to be sweeping and extensive. Believing that several other Members wished to address the House on this subject, who were much more able to do so than he was, he would then submit his resolutions, in the hope that the House would adopt them as the basis of the remedies it might be disposed to apply. He would first move that the Report from the Select Committee on the state of the poor in Ireland, presented the 16th of July this year, being a summary of the first, second, and third reports of the evidence taken before that Committee, be entered as read; which being done, the right hon. Baronet moved the following Resolutions:— "That it appears from returns laid before the House, that the amount of levies under authority of the Grand Juries in Ireland was in 1810, 607,000 l.; in 1821, 755,000 l.; in 1825, 843,000 l; and in 1829, 845,000 l. and upwards:—That the Grand Juries under whose authority these sums are levied, are impanelled at the will and pleasure of the several High Sheriffs, and are not subject to any other than the lowest freehold qualification of 40 s., for discharging the duties of that highly responsible office: That the whole of these levies are discharged by the occupying tenantry of the country, and are not subjected in any manner to their intervention or control except so far as may be effected by the circuitous and expensive means of traverse: That the powers of Grand Juries, originally confined to the formation and repair of roads and bridges, have been largely extended to various other highly important and most beneficial objects, of such a nature as more properly to demand a provision for their discharge from the permanent owner of the land than from the temporary occupant; That it is incumbent

913
on the Legislature to bestow their early and zealous attention on the examination of the whole of this system and the correction of its abuses—on the establishment of accurate and regular inquiry into the imposition and destination of these taxes, and the due control of their expenditure— on the equitable division of the burthens of this taxation between the several parties concerned, and on affording to the payers of the taxes adequate powers for checking abuses and controlling the expenditure proportioned to the rate in which they are contributory to their discharge."
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldconcurred with his right hon. friend in his view of the great importance of the subject he had introduced to the notice of the House, but he did not concur with him in the regret he expressed that it had not fallen into abler hands. No Member of the House was more competent to the task—and no member from Ireland had ever exerted himself more strenuously or more diligently than his right hon. friend in every measure which could promote the interests of his country; and particularly in endeavouring to reform the abuses which had grown up in its local systems. He did not mean to offer any opposition to the motion of his right hon. friend as there was quite enough on the records of the House, not only to justify, but to demand the interference of Parliament, for the purpose of correcting the evils of which he complained. It would be a great improvement if part of the power now exercised by Grand Juries were taken from them, in order to relieve them from much labour and improve the criminal jurisdiction which they exercised. With the jurisdiction however they had a power of taxation equal almost to that possessed by Parliament. Having this multiplicity of business, it was impossible that Grand Juries could give that attention to each of their duties which its importance demanded. This would be readily conceived when he stated, that it was in evidence before the House that, taking the number of presentments made by Grand Juries, and the time they had bestowed on the whole — the average amount given to each, did not exceed five minutes. Considering the great importance of some of those presentments, embracing, as they often did, very important local alterations, and involving an expenditure of many thousands of pounds, such a brief portion of time was far too
914
short for that consideration which ought to be given to them. It was impossible that justice could be done in such haste. One important matter in the Grand Jury system was, that Jurors might tax the county to any extent, without taxing themselves; for as the system now stood, Grand Juries might tax a county to an unlimited extent, without possessing a single acre of land in it. This was so much at variance with every principle of taxation, that if that were the only evil of the system, the House ought to devise some measure of relief. The whole system was condemned by a report of a Committee of this House. The defects of it were admitted by Grand Juries themselves, who had repeatedly called for the interference of Parliament to correct those defects. That part of the power of Grand Juries which enabled them to assess the county for carrying on works in order to give employment to the poor—ought to be amended, because it was wholly inadequate to its object. It was impossible for him to convey an adequate idea to English gentlemen of the peculiarities of this part of the Irish Grand Jury system. The principle acted on was that of giving to the least possible number of persons employment requiring the least possible quantity of human labour. Supposing that of the sum of 845,000 l. levied in the counties in Ireland last year, one half was applied to works for the purpose of giving employment to the poor, the other half being for the necessary expenditure of the counties, that sum, if applied on sound principles, would effect a very consider- able change in the condition of the labouring poor in Ireland. But how was it applied? Why, the whole of the public works in Ireland were carried on with a credit of six months; or payment was not made till the expiration of six months i after the work was completed. Those, therefore, who carried it on must have funds of their own, but the Grand-Jury work was a sort of charity, and therefore it was done at such a low rate of wages to the poor persons employed, as almost to defeat the object, that of giving useful employment to the poor. In this respect great reform was necessary. All public works should be paid for in ready money, and to a departure from that sound principle much of the misery in Ireland might be attributed. He owed an apology to the House for taking up so much of its time on a matter which might seem to many hon. Mem-

915
bers to possess only local interest; but he knew no question more important to Ireland than that of giving employment to its poor. It was also of considerable importance to this country, for the large numbers of poor who came over here from Ireland in search of employment, contributed to the distress now felt in many parts of England. He was bound to admit, that under the circumstances of the two countries, the great influx of Irish labourers here was prejudicial. At the same time, he would not have any restriction put on the free intercourse between the two countries, for they deceived themselves who imagined, that the evils of immigration from Ireland could be cured by any other remedy than that of giving the Irish sufficient employment at home. Another circumstance which he could not omit to notice, and he adverted to it because it must be looked in the face, in devising any measure for the employment of the poor of Ireland was the evil of absenteeism. That so many of the owners of the soil of that country should spend the incomes derived from it in other countries, was an evil of which Ireland was every day more and more sensible. There were many absentees, whose great liberality and laudable endeavours to give employment to the poor on their estates deserved great praise, and tended, as far as they were concerned, to lessen the evils of absenteeism; but these were only exceptions to the general practice, which they made appear so much the more mischievous. This at the present moment was a topic of much agitation and excitement in Ireland; and, without any desire to add to either, he must admit that the evils of absenteeism were such as no country in the world could long bear up against. They were evils which nothing could cure. He was disposed to deal with the subject in such a way as to mitigate, in some manner, the evils he could not wholly remove. As he could not compel the absentee to reside in Ireland, he would at least oblige him to do that which he would be disposed to do of himself if he remained in Ireland—contribute to the means of giving employment to the poor. Ireland was so peculiarly circumstanced, that with the greatest national advantages for the profitable employment of capital in commerce, as well as in manufactures, she was devoid of that capital which would call forth her great natural resources. This evil absenteeism
916
had tended to increase and aggravate. He knew that it was a favourite theory with many gentlemen who viewed the influx of Irish poor here as an evil—that the establishment of a system of Poor-laws in Ireland would prevent that influx. No opinion could be more erroneous; and he would pledge himself, when the proper time came, to prove, incontestibly, that the establishment of Poor-laws in Ireland would greatly increase the influx of able-bodied Irish poor into England. He hoped that English gentlemen would be brought to consider the subject more attentively, and he was persuaded that they would admit that neither this nor any other system would be sufficient to do away with the evil of want of employment in Ireland—that nothing would cure that want, but employment itself. In the reports to which his right hon. friend had referred, certain principles were laid down with respect to employment, in every one of which he fully concurred. Under the last Administration it was his intention to bring forward a plan for the employment of the poor in Ireland. It was not a plan hastily thrown out, but the subject of serious and attentive consideration for eleven years. He submitted it to the noble Duke lately at the head of his Majesty's Councils, and to several Members for Ireland, all of whom expressed their approbation of it in strong terms. That plan had the sanction too of his right hon. friend (Sir R. Peel), and it was intended to bring it forward after the great question of relief from civil disabilities on account of religion had been settled. It had also been submitted to the Marquis Wellesley when in Ireland. The only difference between the Duke of Wellington and himself on the subject was this, the noble Duke wished the introduction of the measure to be cautious and gradual, whilst, in his opinion, it ought to be immediate. It would be recollected that in the years of scarcity in Ireland, various measures were adopted by Government for the relief of the poor —and here he must do his right hon. friend lately at the bead of the Home Department, the justice of noticing the very great readiness with which he listened to and promoted every humane suggestion made at the time, to relieve the poor in that country. Sums of money were at that time advanced for the purpose of giving them employ-

917
merit, to which his right hon. friend assented; but at the same time strongly pointed out the danger of such precedents, and shewed that they ought not to be followed on future occasions. In that opinion he concurred, as a general principle; while it must be admitted, that the advances were a great relief for the time, and had a very salutary effect on the condition of large masses of the labouring poor. He admitted, that the public taxes ought not to be permanently applied to local improvement. Any capital so applied ought to be repaid with interest, by the county for the benefit of which its application was intended. Still he must contend, that from the sums of public money which had from time to time been advanced for public works in Ireland, much benefit had been derived; and experience shewed, that such advances might be repaid with interest. But these sums were generally applied through commissioners who had not a permanent existence, and who did not possess sufficient knowledge of the country. The interposition of Government on those occasions was a political interposition. Any measures of that kind he should deprecate in the application of funds for the employment of the poor which should have no reference to party politics, nor party patronage. He did not say, that the advances he referred to were so made; but he mentioned this, for the purpose of expressing his conviction that everything of the kind should be studiously avoided. The want of resident proprietors being the great evil affecting Ireland, to remedy that as far as possible, measures of a general and extensive nature should be adopted. If, as one of these, he should propose an advance of capital, it should be on the principle of repayment, with interest. He would not take it from the public treasury, nor make it part of the funded or unfunded Debt. The capital to be applied to the improvement of Ireland should be laid out so advantageously as to yield a profit over and above the sum necessary to pay the interest and the principal of the loan. In the various counties in Ireland, there are different classes of tenants, and different modes of levying the assessments in each county. The present modes are objectionable, as they constitute a heavy tax on the occupying tenantry. It was not consistent with the spirit of humanity to compel the
918
pauper population of Ireland to pay these rates. He could reconcile it neither with a feeling of humanity, nor with a sense of justice, that such a system should be tolerated, that the tenant should pay all the amount of the tax, and the control over it rest entirely with the landlord. He gave notice some time ago of his intention to bring the matter before the House, as it had occupied a considerable portion of his time and attention; and being then a member of the Administration, he had reason to believe that his plan met with the approbation of the Government. No efficient measure could, in fact, be brought into operation without the assistance of the Government; and he should be happy to abandon to it the measure he proposed. The Ministers might make use of it with any amendments they pleased to adopt; and he would most readily give up all the details and documents he had prepared on the subject. He should have proposed an alteration some years ago, but he found considerable difficulty in adjusting the mode of assessment; especially as it regarded the different forms in which lands were held. He could not overcome this inconvenience until, in the course of his inquiries, he met with a very able man, whose knowledge on all matters connected with English taxation and statistics was unequalled, who pointed out a course which obviated most of the difficulties connected with taxation of this nature. The plan was founded on practical inquiries into the situation of Ireland — as to the best means of making its resources available, and of improving the condition of that country, whose situation he deeply lamented. Through his means, a mode of overcoming one of the greatest difficulties Ireland had to contend with had been devised, and there was every prospect that we should be able to overcome it. The great difficulty was in equalizing the mode in which the rate was levied, and taking care that it was properly distributed over the whole district. The remedy suggested was not only applicable to the particular circumstances of this case, but also to all property and all occasions. Suppose you had a proper valuation of the land and the soil made—and this by-the-bye, was being done at the present time, but which valuation must be completed before the plan suggested could be carried into operation, it was proposed that on the valuation of the land being completed, the different

919
parishes should be rated according to the interest they had in the land, or according to the difference of the value of their tenure. It was proposed to do this on the same principle, as the insurance-offices advance money on mortgage. The money raised on each parish by the most just method he could invent, he would place in the hands of commissioners, to be appointed by the Government. Such gentlemen would be above the local prejudices and the local interests which now sometimes led the members of Grand Juries astray, and always exposed their conduct to imputations. Such a tax, too, it was obvious, would be subject to revision at different periods; and such a plan would completely remove all the difficulties of the case. By this means the tax could be shifted with ease from the tenant to the owner. He trusted Government would take the plan into its consideration. It was his intention to bring it formally before the House, but, on referring to the Notice-book, he found that there was not a vacant day until after the adjournment, which, he understood, was to take place next week. Being without information on this point, he had been compelled to avail himself of this opportunity to take part in the discussion on the motion of his right hon. friend, and to introduce some topics not perhaps directly connected with the matter immediately before the House. The subject was of material importance, as far as it was connected with the situation of Ireland. It was impossible to let the matter rest as at present. There had been several committees and numerous reports on the subject, which had led to the belief, that the House intended to do nothing but report, and had no idea of legislating on it. He believed, however, that it was the wish of the present Government, as it was the intention of the late Administration, to bring forward some practical measure. The condition of Ireland would daily grow worse, if Government did not turn its attention to the subject, and bring forward some measure for the improvement of its local institutions. He would not say, "act hastily and unadvisedly," but unless it did something, the danger and risk would increase. If there were a spirit of mischief existing in that country, he could trace it to nothing else than a want of employment; and until that was provided, the condition of the people could not be improved. Some means ought to
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be adopted to make available their resources, both natural and artificial—resources hardly equalled in any country in the civilized world. It was the bounden duty of the Legislature, as well for the sake of England as of Ireland, to exert itself to accomplish that. He wished to place Ireland in such a situation as that she could have a part, both in the difficulties and the resources of the State. She had hitherto suffered from the subtraction of her produce by her absentee proprietors, and her manufacturers had been ruined, to support that narrow system of monopoly which had been considered necessary for the improvement of England. The House must not merely improve the condition of the people, but also effect a complete alteration in the system of policy. He trusted that, during the long recess of the holidays, Ministers would consider the matter, and soon after the re-assembling of Parliament be prepared with some measures to submit to the attention of the Legislature.
Sir John Walshdid not mean, after the, able statements of the right hon. members for Waterford and the county of Derry, who had entered so fully into the details of the subject under the consideration of the House, to encroach upon its time by stating the grounds which induced him to support the Resolutions of the right hon. Gentleman. He should be glad to see the right hon. member for Kerry bring forward those ulterior measures which he appeared to contemplate, for the system was so bad as to render anything short of a complete revision an inadequate remedy. He would venture to notice one expression of the member for Kerry's speech—an apology which he made, but which he (Sir J. Walsh) hoped he would never think it necessary to repeat, for occupying the attention of the House with an exclusively Irish question. As an English Member, he wished to declare, that he did not understand the meaning of such an expression. There was no such thing, politically speaking, as an exclusively Irish question; every Irish question was more or less an English one. One reason for a reform of the present system, which had great weight with him, and which neither of the right hon. Gentlemen had noticed, was the moral effect which would be produced upon the peasantry by the removal of so many causes of suspicion and prejudice against their superiors. It

921
was very important to every State, that its institutions should be such as to cultivate the relations of harmony, confidence, and affection, between the upper and lower classes. From the unfortunate, the false position, in which the Grand Juries were placed—from the unlucky manner in which petty, private, personal objects were mixed up with the performance of their public duties, they could not escape the imputation of personal motives in the discharge of their public duties. A new line of road sometimes described a most inexplicable curve in approaching the lodge-gate of one Grand Juryman. A new and valuable contract for some public work was conferred upon the tenant or dependant of another. Such charges had been grossly exaggerated; they formed, he believed, the exception, not the rule, and Grand Juries had generally been conscientious in the performance of duties which ought never to have been confided to them. But it would be an important benefit, resulting from the abolition of the system, that these grounds of suspicion and jealousy in the peasantry would be entirely removed, and that the gentry would no longer be exposed to the odium of such misrepresentations. To one remark he wished to bespeak the attention of the hon. member for Waterford; the consideration, namely, of this measure, with reference to another, of which that hon. Member was almost the solitary advocate. This subject was of great local importance to Ireland; it was a measure of substantial amelioration; it was brought forward on one side, and met by the other with the most eager and sincere desire to adopt the improvement. He might venture to assume, that every Irish question was discussed in the House with a zealous desire to decide it on its merits, with an anxious wish to benefit the sister country, and with a total absence of all party feeling— of all private and personal motives. He would put it, however, to any Irish Member—to any one conversant with the former history of the Irish Parliament— whether, if the hon. Member's domestic legislature were then sitting in its place at Dublin, such would be the spirit in which this question would be considered? When the House remembered how many local interests were concerned, how intimately the Grand Jury and the Irish Representatives would be connected, it could not doubt that this question would excite
922
numberless intrigues, and the greatest irritation and excitement throughout the country. This view, of the justice of which he felt a strong conviction, might perhaps convince the hon. Member that important benefits might be derived from a general, comprehensive, and powerful Legislature, which a local Parliament could not confer.
Mr. James Grattanwished, before he alluded to the Resolutions of his right hon. friend, the member for Waterford, to complain of the conduct of his right hon. friend, the member for Kerry. He had sat long in Parliament, and long had this system been complained of; year after year had it been confirmed by laws,—it was, in fact, the creature of the laws,— and yet his right hon. friend had never till now proposed his plan of relief. He only now stated, that he had a plan, when the other right hon. Gentleman had submitted his Resolutions to the House. That plan, however, seemed of little value, for before it could be made available, a general survey must be made of Ireland. [Mr. Fitzgerald said, that was not necessary.] He certainly understood his right hon. friend to say so. The House had just ground of complaint, that subjects of this sort were brought forward for discussion, night after night, producing no practical good. On this occasion his right hon. friend came forward with his plan, and communicated to the House a series of Resolutions, which he called upon it hastily to sanction. This was not acting consistently, to call upon the House to agree to Resolutions condemning a system, without immediately suggesting another in its place. It ought not to be forgotten, that this system had been growing up for several years, and had been encouraged by numerous Acts of Parliament. The Grand Juries in Ireland might be considered as so many local Parliaments, and their loss would be materially felt. But let him not be misunderstood, he was no advocate for the present system of Grand Juries; though he certainly believed that, in most instances, the members of those bodies were as anxious properly to discharge the duties of their office, as any hon. Members of that House. The right hon. Gentleman wished for a new mode of levying the local taxes, and said, that not a single gentleman was examined before the committee up-stairs who did not exclaim

923
against the present system. That might be the case, but he was not, therefore, justified in calling upon the House to censure and destroy a system which had been in force upwards of one hundred years, without first providing a substitute. At present the people were enabled to procure, by the means of Grand Juries, those measures for which, under other circumstances, it would be necessary to apply to Parliament, which. is always done in England. If Grand Juries were abolished, their duties must be transferred to some other bodies. The right hon. Member stated, that in consequence of the mode in which the Grand Jury assessments were levied and distributed in Ireland, little good was done, but had he devised a better system? Some of the evils might be easily remedied, but he objected to such a sweeping change, especially as it was not clear that good would result from it. The question would be settled in a much more satisfactory manner, and in a much shorter time in Dublin, where the Legislature could readily examine witnesses, and procure documents, and the matter could be discussed much more advantageously there than in this country. The subject, however, had no reference to the question of the Union. The Grand Juries were a sort of local Parliament, which, perhaps, might be spared, and he should be willing to take the powers from them if he could find bodies better able to discharge their duties; but he was not aware, nor had the right hon. member for Waterford mentioned, any bodies that could supply their place advantageously. The situation of Grand Juryman was far from being enviable, for their duties were obnoxious and disagreeable. The office was of such an unthankful nature that few persons who serve would not willingly resign. The charges, indeed, brought against those bodies were, for the most part, utterly destitute of foundation. He had served repeatedly on Grand Juries, and had often seen instances of the most disinterested conduct. That, however, was not the time to go into the details of the merits of the establishment. His right hon. friend, to whom Ireland was under such great obligations, had not, perhaps, much practical knowledge of Grand Juries, and he had exaggerated their defects. He stated that, on an average of a few years, 800,000 l. had been expended annually by these bodies, and that nearly one-half
924
was expended for purposes for which it was not originally intended that Grand Juries should provide, or on objects highly useful and important, but which ought rather to be paid for by the permanent owner of the soil. The Grand Juries, however, ought not to be blamed for these acts, as they were compelled by law to make the presentments on oath; and he believed, in most instances, it would be impossible to make them with a greater regard to the public service than at present. He would not take upon him to defend all the acts of those bodies, and he should not be sorry to see an alteration, but he should most strenuously oppose any measure which would throw the power into the hands of Government. Any system of Boards appointed by Government would not only be found to be infinitely more expensive, but also liable to the strongest objection on principle. Any system which would take the power out of the hands of the resident Irish gentlemen would not be desirable, as it must have a tendency to increase absenteeism. The great object to be aimed at for Ireland was, to give the gentlemen of Ireland an interest in the management of the country. His right hon. friend, he knew, was averse from absenteeism, and, like him, conceived that absentees were great evils; but his plans would increase absenteeism. To take away from the gentlemen the power of regulating the local taxes would lessen their motives to reside in the country, and would increase the number of absentees. On the whole, the evils were great, but not so great as to require the system to be entirely abolished. It would be idle and vain to talk of a beneficial measure for Ireland, which had not for its basis to induce gentleman to reside on their estates. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) talked of his plans for the improvement of Grand Juries, but why had he not brought some measure forward for that purpose during the thirty years that he had been in Parliament, instead of letting the evil increase to its present magnitude? He was satisfied that an Act of Parliament containing a very few words, would do more to correct the evils of the system than a voluminous, or rather a number of voluminous Acts. He had himself brought forward a proposition to levy the rates on an improved system, three years ago, and to his surprise the right hon. Gentleman

925
had forgotten it. He was, probably, not in the House at the time, for he certainly took no part in the Debate. One evil, which imperiously called for the interposition of the House, was the power exercised by the Commissioners for Public Works in Ireland. The expenses of these fell extremely heavy on the Irish counties. The Grand Juries made a presentment, money was advanced from the Consolidated Fund much too liberally, and a heavy debt was contracted. With respect to the Resolutions, the right hon. member for Waterford called upon the House to agree to his declaratory propositions, condemning the present system, without at the same time bringing forward his remedy; and the House would act very inconsistently if it agreed to these propositions, and did not pass some measure to remove the alleged evil. It would be a great reflection on the House, that it admitted the existence of a great evil, and did not immediately provide a remedy. The principal improvement which could be made in the constitution of Grand Juries would be, to have a more frequent change of members. The same persons serving nearly on all occasions as Grand Jurymen had been the cause of a great portion of the prejudice on the subject. It was considered that they formed a sort of packed body—a species of corporation, and the consequence was, that their proceedings were viewed with great jealousy. This was a difficulty which could easily be remedied; for instance, by electing so many gentlemen from each Barony every year, and by a constant change taking place, the feeling that they did not assess themselves fairly would appear, as it really was, utterly groundless. With respect to the expenditure, a much greater and more efficient check might be had by increasing the number of the returns to be made by the Surveyors of Works; but the complaints on this point were greatly exaggerated. These were the principal objections, all of which could be easily remedied. There were, he admitted, great evils, under the present system; but at the same time he was bound to say, that equal or greater objections might be made to all the systems yet devised.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeralddenied, that he had made any attack on the character of Grand Juries. He had admitted that the members of them had good intentions, but the system under which they worked
926
was so bad that it was impossible they could execute their duties.
Sir Robert Peelwished to make a few observations on the course of the proceeding rather than on the substance of the Motion. The right hon. Baronet had proposed five Resolutions in detail, calling on the House to affirm several important matters. The House should be careful how it affirmed those matters; and he would therefore suggest, that it would be better, before affirming those matters, that the House should see the Resolutions in print, and have an opportunity of well considering the subject. He objected, then, to the course adopted by the right hon. Baronet. The object of the Resolutions was, to declare that the lessee should not pay the cess, which should be paid by the lessor. He wished the House of Commons to declare that the occupier ought not to pay the assessment; but surely the interval between the House of Commons making that declaration and passing a bill to impose the payment on the other class should be as short as possible. When the right hon. Baronet remembered the agitated state of Ireland, he would himself see the propriety of not condemning one system by a resolution of that House before the Legislature were prepared to establish another. His right hon. friend (Mr. M. Fitzgerald)knew that he did not agree to all his views. He objected to establishing any Board, whether under the Government or not, to regulate local taxation. Local taxation should, he thought, be regulated by local authorities, which he preferred to any Board. The object, he thought, should be, to establish a local authority, but to place that authority under certain restrictions, and subject its acts to revision. Certainly he objected strongly to the present plan of allowing one individual to name all the members of these little Parliaments, as the Grand Juries were called. All the objections to Select Vestries applied with great force to a body of twenty-three persons, selected by one individual. He wanted to see the people of Ireland take an interest in such institutions themselves, and he should like to see them establish, with certain checks, institutions for local expenditure such as were in England. He did not wish to see the body to which this power was intrusted very numerous —it might nearly approach the number of an English Grand Jury. He wished next to separate the judicial power from the

927
power of levying taxes. If twenty-three gentlemen asserted that a tax was necessary, or if they, as the taxing body, should feel objections to any tax proposed, he should not be disposed to prefer the decision of any other body, particularly if they were taken from the land-owners, and the land-owners were to be, as was proposed, the rate-payers. On this body, however, there ought to be a check. It should have the absolute power to levy taxes for useful works; but, to have an assurance against jobs, two means might be employed so as to ensure that the money was expended properly. He would give a veto to some Board on any project involving a large expense—such as several thousand pounds; and he would not allow the work to be done, except by public contract. He knew no other body so likely as this to determine correctly what works were useful. Then there ought to be, on the part of the public authority, a power to compel the Grand Jury to give an account of all the money expended. He could not see in this case any objection to give such a power to the Government; and he did not know why the Treasurer of the County should not be called on to render an account of all the money he was authorised to expend. These were the great principles on which he would proceed. With respect to advancing money for public works—though he admitted that, in particular cases, it had been advantageous—he could not give his assent to it as a general system. To give 100,000 l. to relieve urgent distress might be necessary; but to employ the public funds to find employment for the people, was likely to stimulate population beyond its due proportion. It would interfere with the natural demand for labour; and, as the stimulus could not be continually and perpetually applied, it must end in a convulsion and greater distress than it was intended to relieve. It could not confer a permanent benefit on the country. Moreover, to advance money on a great scale for carrying on public works, would not accord in any manner with the general financial system of this country. In conclusion, the right hon. Gentleman apologised to the House for the length of his remarks, and expressed a hope that they would not be considered as at all tending to undervalue the exertions of the right hon. Baronet, or lessen the importance of the object he had in view.
Mr. O'Connellthought the views of the right hon. Baronet who had just sat down deserved attention. Every person admitted, that the present system was monstrous. He had never heard any Gentleman defend the system except the hon. member for Wicklow. The principle was bad. It was taxation without representation, and those who levied the taxes were not the payers. In many instances the Grand Jury had no concern with the law. He had known a case where taxation to the amount of several thousand pounds was levied by a Grand Jury, five of whom had been discharged under the Insolvent Debtors' Act. Was it not a shame that ninety acres of bad land should pay as much, as had been stated by a right hon. Gentleman, as 1,000 acres of equally good land? Great praise had been frequently bestowed on the Parliament for its attention to Irish matters, but here was an abuse existing for thirty years without any remedy. Was Ireland to be grateful for that? He did not think she ought to be, unless her gratitude was political gratitude, which had been defined, to be a lively sense of future favours. He admitted the propriety of having local authorities, but those who assessed the taxes should be the taxpayers. Ireland was divided into baronies, and the plan he should recommend would be this:—He would have each barony select two men when any public works were necessary, who should make a presentment for them to the Assistant Barrister, and he would give to these two men and the Assistant Barrister the power of settling the maximum of the assessment. Their presentment should go before the Grand Jury, who should have no power to enlarge it; but if they disapproved of it, they might diminish it. The Grand Jury should then have the power to order the works to be executed, but by no other means than by contracts publicly announced and publicly formed, and the contractors should be obliged to pay their labourers in money. This would be a constitutional means of improving the system. He would say, that at present the discontent in Ireland on account of the Grand Jury system was excessive, and could not, perhaps, be exceeded. He was happy to hear the right hon. Baronet's good wishes to-night, but he would rather have had some good deeds from him before he went out of Office.
Lord Althorpagreed with all the Gen-

929
tlemen who had spoken as to the great importance of this subject; and admitted, that it was necessary that the Government should turn its attention to the matter. The right hon. Baronet who had introduced the subject, confined himself to the evils of the Grand Jury system; the right hon. Gentleman who spoke subsequently (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) had discussed many of the peculiarities in the condition of Ireland. He meant to confine himself to the subject before the House, and he would say, that the Government would be very happy to receive the plan which the right hon. Gentleman said he had formed for the improvement of that system. It was admitted that the evils of the system were great, and they were principally caused by the fact, that the rates were imposed by persons who had to pay no part of them. That was not what ought to be. It was contrary to sound principles, and was open to many objections. He did not, however, think the plan recommended by the hon. and learned member for Water-ford would answer the object proposed. It would be very complicated, and be exposed to many difficulties. In England the parish roads were indeed kept in repair by each parish, but each parish was liable to be indicted if the roads were not kept in good order. In Ireland, he believed, the great difficulty was, to find fit and proper persons to execute any local system, and constitute local bodies. There was no difficulty of that kind in England, where the people had long been accustomed to manage their own affairs. He would not pledge himself to any decided course, nor give a decided opinion what ought to be done. He believed, however, that his right hon. friend, the Chief Secretary for Ireland, had a Bill prepared to improve the Grand Jury system, and the Government hoped that it might be carried into effect with great advantage.
Mr. G. Dawsonadmitted, that the principles of the system were bad, but he denied that the Grand Jurors who carried it into execution were corrupt. The materials were good, but the plan was bad. Landlords ought to have the power of levying these taxes, and that system would be no improvement which took that power from them. It was proper to keep up their connection with the county, and their interest was deeply concerned in the proper administration of the county funds. Under the present arrangement of
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the business transacted before the Grand Juries, it was impossible for them to devote more than two minutes to the consideration of each presentment, and it therefore followed, as a matter of course, that great laxity and many abuses crept into the administration of the county-rates. In his opinion, much of the difficulty at present experienced by the Magistrates, and many of the abuses of the system, might be got rid of by appointing a number of Magistrates in each county to assemble twice a year, for the transaction of no other kind of business than that connected with presentments, and the application of the rates collected for public purposes. This would, he was satisfied, be productive of the best effects; for he could not agree with those who thought the Irish counties were wantonly and extravagantly rated for county purposes. In point of fact, a much larger sum was collected in the English counties, under the name of County-rates, than the whole of the sums which were said to be so illegally taken in Ireland. By a return made a short time ago to that House, it appeared, that the County-rates of England amounted to something considerably above 2,000,000 l.; and yet the system which prevailed in England was that which it was wished the Legislature should extend to Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by protesting against the plan of the Knight of Kerry, for placing the funds of the counties under the control of Commissioners.
Mr. Wyseadmitted, that the members of Grand Juries were very honourable men; but such was the vicious system, that the most honourable men could not act virtuously, at least their conduct could not possibly have the appearance of virtue. The evils of the present system were immense, and they all arose from those who levied the rates and administered them being irresponsible. He was opposed to the system suggested by the member for Kerry; but he approved of the principle of that suggested by the member for Waterford though not of its details. He thought the better plan would be, to divide the powers of the Grand Juries into two parts, leaving to the Magistrates the judicial power which they at present exercised, and permitting the rate-payers to elect from the whole body a certain number, to whom they would be willing to commit the administration of

931
the county funds. In fact, he would give the rate-payers the power to tax themselves, by means of a committee of Magistrates elected for the year; but he objected to a board of any kind, as a delusive scheme, which would perpetuate the abuses the Legislature wished to remove. The principle he would follow in reforming the Grand Juries of Ireland should be the same as he would follow in reforming that House—he would give to the people a full and an open election of those who were to represent, or to tax them. He was satisfied that by no scheme, though many palliatives might be found, would the evil be effectually cured, unless the principle were acted on, of giving to the rate-payers a full and efficient control over the whole i of the money raised. While he was on this subject, he would say, that he approved of the system of loans which the right hon. Baronet had condemned. He thought, that, in the present condition of Ireland, it would stimulate the people to industry, and provide permanent employment, without burthening the country with any of the evils of pauperism. All that Ireland wanted was, to have her revenues properly brought into use, and he was quite satisfied that advantage might be procured, from the advancement of money by way of loan, without the loss of a single shilling to the lender. In consequence of the declaration of his Majesty's Ministers, that they were determined to take the subject under consideration, he would abstain from troubling the House with any further observations; but he would take leave to say, in conclusion, that he was happy to find that the administration was disposed to turn its attention to the condition of Ireland, and he hoped the people of that country, when they heard that Parliament was in reality and in good earnest occupied with those questions in which they had an interest, would feel that the day of retribution which they wished for was come, not in wrong and in bloodshed, but that it had brought forth an earnest desire to promote their welfare as a division of the empire, and to develope, to its utmost extent, their almost unbounded national resources.
Mr. Owen O'Connorexpressed the gratification he felt at finding that at length we had a Government which was willing to lend its attention to the complaints of the people of Ireland.
Mr. W. O'Brienwas of opinion, that
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the plan recommended by the Knight of Kerry would, on inquiry, be found the fittest for the proper management of the County-rates, and the best calculated to get rid of the evils of the present system. Objections might, of course, be raised to commissioners, such as the right hon. Gentleman proposed; but he was convinced that the plan would destroy the improper powers vested in the Grand Juries; and if the right hon. Gentleman (the Knight of Kerry) had entered more into a detail of his plan and of the course to be pursued by the commissioners, he thought many of the arguments against it would have been obviated. One good effect of placing the management of county-rates in the hands of commissioners would be, to ensure ready money to the labourer, while it would, at the same time, secure the effectual execution of all public works at half the present expense.
Mr. Spring Ricesuggested to his right hon. friend the propriety of withdrawing the Resolutions, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had declared it to be the intention of Government to take the subject under its immediate care.
Sir John Newporthad not entertained a hope that the Resolutions would be carried; but he was satisfied with the attention bestowed on them, and would withdraw them.
Resolutions accordingly withdrawn.

THE LIVING OF STANHOPE.
Mr. Charles Wynne,before the noble Viscount (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) proceeded to move for the committee on Public Salaries, begged leave to ask him a question on a subject in which he believed the public took a peculiar and extraordinary interest. He wished to know if Ministers persisted in the determination of their predecessors, to permit the living of Stanhope to be held by Dr. Phillpotts, in commendam with the See of Exeter?
Lord Althorp,in reply to the hon. Member's question, said, that his Majesty's Ministers, upon finding a great objection prevailing throughout the country on the subject of such an union, had felt it their duty to advise his Majesty to abstain from issuing the instruments required for that purpose.

SALARIES OF PUBLIC OFFICERS.
Lord Althorpthen rose to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the

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Salaries of Offices held during the pleasure of the Crown, of which he had given notice. He said, it was the firm determination of his Majesty's Ministers to enforce the most rigid economy, and to effect a thorough retrenchment in every department of the State; but in order to leave them the power to enforce this economy and retrenchment with a proper effect, and in order to enable them to call on others to make sacrifices, his Majesty's Ministers felt it their duty to begin by making sacrifices themselves. Under ordinary circumstances, it was undoubtedly better that the Government should take on itself the responsibility of proposing to Parliament those reductions and alterations which it thought expedient, without throwing the labour of the research on a committee of the House; but Ministers conceived that they were less competent to come to a conclusion with respect to the amount of their own salaries than they might be with reference to those of others. They thought, therefore, that the more satisfactory course would be, to leave the question of the amount of their own salaries to an independent committee of the House; "and I hope, (the noble Lord continued), that the committee which I mean to propose will be found to be as independent of the Government as any committee can be constituted in this House. I am well aware of the necessity of satisfying the country, that it is the sincere and honest intention of the Government to carry the reductions in all the public establishments to the utmost extent which may be found consistent with a due regard to the public service. Looking, however, at reductions of this kind, I think it necessary to say, that they may be, perhaps, carried too far. I think it would, indeed, be exceedingly unwise and impolitic that we should reduce the salaries so low as to leave no office capable of being held, unless by a man possessing a large private fortune. That is, I think, a principle which the most ardent lover of economy would not wish to see carried into effect. The principle of economy Ministers are determined to carry into effect is this, that wherever the mere patronage of the Government is concerned, there shall be no limit to the reductions, but where the wants of the public service require efficient officers, then economy shall be only a secondary consideration, carried as far as it can be
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in accordance with the principles of the Government, but never permitted to interfere with that which they conceive to be demanded for the proper conduct of public business. Thinking, then, that the whole question can be most favourably brought under the consideration of a committee, and believing as I do that no objection will be offered to such a motion, I propose to appoint one, because I think it is called for by the unanimous voice of the country. I feel it my duty, at the same time, to warn those who are looking with anxiety to the effect of reductions, that they must not expect any extensive relief from anything which can be taken from the salaries of the Government officers. Much as such a measure may be desired by the advocates for economy, I think it right to say, that it will produce but a very small diminution in the amount of the taxation with which the public is burthened; but small as may be the relief, it will produce that which is of much more importance in the present state of the public mind; it will give satisfaction to the people, and convince them that economy is with the present Government no idle profession. It will prove to the people, that the Ministers are determined to make the necessary retrenchment of expenditure, and display the sincerity of their intentions by beginning with their own emoluments. Having said so much respecting the public opinion, the objects of the Government, and the mode in which it proposes to carry those objects into effect, I would now add, that the same reasons which have prevented us from coming to any decision with respect to the amount of the salaries which we conceive necessary for the support of our respective offices, have induced us to refrain from naming any person as a member of the committee who may be supposed to be in the slightest degree under the influence of the Government. In the nomination of the committee, I have, indeed, felt it right to adopt as a precedent the course pursued by my noble friend, Lord Lansdown, in the year 1806; who, in appointing a committee to inquire into the state of the Finances, selected no Member who held an office of any description under the Administration. I believe, however, it will be necessary, as a matter of form, that my own name should be placed on the list; but I trust that the reasons and objections I have stated will, with the com-

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mittee itself, form an excuse for my non- attendance." The noble Lord concluded by moving the appointment of a "Select Committee, to inquire what Reductions can be made in the Salaries and Emoluments of Office held during the pleasure of the Crown by Members of either House of Parliament, and to report their Opinion and Observations thereupon to the House."
Mr. Bankesthought the Ministers might, perhaps, have adopted a better course, if they had come down with a proposition of their own for the reduction of their salaries, rather than have thrown on a committee the ungracious task of determining what should be the amount. He did not, however, rise at that moment to apply himself to the question, but to ask the noble Lord if there was any foundation for the report of the intended removal of Sir Anthony Hart from the Lord Chancellorship of Ireland?
Lord Althorpsaid, he felt bound, in the first place, to apologize to the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Dawson) for not possessing the requisite information to answer a question on the same subject, which he put to him on a former evening. The truth was, that he had just returned from his election, and had not had an opportunity of communicating with the members of the Government until he took his place in the House. In answer to the question of the hon. member for Dorsetshire, he had now to state, that the Government felt it required an intimate and confidential assistant in the government of Ireland in the person of the Lord Chancellor, and they had, therefore, determined on making a change in that office; but they had taken such steps, and made such arrangements with respect to the removal of Sir Anthony Hart, that no real increase of the burthens of the people would be the consequence.
Mr. Bankes,in reply to this declaration, said, he felt himself bound at once to stigmatise this proceeding of the Government as a job of the most obnoxious kind; and as a job of an Administration which set out with such loud professions, and which placed its claims to public support on its principles of economy. He must say, that it excited his wonder and surprise, not unmixed with a feeling of deep regret. He had hopes that the Administration would have attempted to justify the expectations of economy which were
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so universally entertained; but the avowal of this job taught him that his hopes were vain. Perhaps he had said too much— more than he ought— until he heard the explanation that was promised; and he should, therefore, merely add, that he waited for it with impatience.
Mr. G. Dawsonsaid, that as this subject had excited a very general interest in England, as well as in Ireland, he hoped the noble Lord would excuse his putting to him another question connected with the rumour of another removal. Sir Anthony Hart, the present Lord Chancellor, made no objection, as far as he understood, to continue to hold his place; and he believed it was admitted by the Bar and the country, that no man was better qualified to perform its duties with honour to himself and advantage to the suitors. It should also be recollected, that Sir Anthony Hart was sent to Ireland purely and solely because he was not connected with any of its political parties, and because he was not disposed to meddle with any of the contending factions of the time—but they now heard, and he confessed he heard it with pain, that the Chancellor was to be replaced by a political substitute, whose inclination it was, and from whom it was required as a duty, that he should meddle with parties, and renew that hatred and dissatisfaction which had for some time been so happily repressed. This was not all however; he understood that it was also contemplated to give a retiring allowance to the Chief Baron, in order that he might be replaced by some other political friend of the Government, although that Judge was as competent as any other in Ireland to fulfil his duties, and no adequate reason could be advanced to justify his retirement. The consequence of all this would be, to saddle the country with two retiring pensions in order that the Government might place two political supporters in the place of the Lord Chancellor and Chief Baron in Ireland. He (Mr. Dawson) would not complain of this in ordinary cases, but when he was told that retrenchment was the one sole object of the Government, and when he found that Ministers rested their claim to public confidence, and their reputation as a Government, on the fulfilment of their pledges of economy; and when he found that one of their first acts was to displace two eminent Judges, who would be enti-

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tled to demand large retiring pensions from the public, he confessed he could not avoid expressing his surprise and apprehension. Now, one word more as to the apology of the noble Lord. The noble Lord said, that he was not aware of the intention of the Government until after he took his seat in the House. But were there no means of sending a letter to the noble Lord, acquainting him with the wishes of the Premier, before the measure was determined on? If there was not, what became of the responsibility of the noble Lord as Chancellor of the Exchequer? Was the Prime Minister to make arrangements so materially affecting the finances of the country without consulting the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was responsible, by virtue of his office, for the expenditure of the public money, and the fulfilment of the pledges of retrenchment? The whole matter might be capable of explanation, but in the present extraordinary appearance which it assumed, he could not give it his approval.
Lord Althorp,in reply to the last observation of the right hon. Gentleman, said, that the Chief Baron had already been twenty-five years on the Bench, and had expressed a strong wish to retire. He begged also to say, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman's charge of the wish of the Government to appoint political partisans, that the persons appointed to these situations were no political friends of the present Administration, but, on the contrary, men appointed by an Administration with which they had nothing whatever to do. The Government, therefore, had no personal motive to do wrong and it would be found, on examination, that they had promoted, in all cases, men never politically connected with them as a party. There might be an exception with respect to the Lord Chancellor. The right hon. Gentleman says, that the Lord Chancellor should not be connected with the opinions of the Government. Now, up to the time of the appointment of Sir Anthony Hart, the Chancellor had always been a political associate. It was necessary that he should be in constant communication with the Lord Lieutenant, to whom was intrusted the executive government of Ireland; and if he was not a person who could hold a confidential communication on the views of the Government in England, he could not efficiently perform the duties of his station. The
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appointment of Sir Anthony Hart was considered politic at a peculiar crisis, and because it was wished to avoid some difficulties connected with the Catholic Question? but if the Chancellor was not, in ordinary circumstances, the complete and confidential depositary of the views of the Administration, the difficulties attending the situation of the Government would be increased to such a degree as to be almost insurmountable.
Mr. Holme Sumnerobserved, that as it was understood that the Committee on the Civil List was not to proceed until after the holidays, it was evident that his Majesty's Ministers had determined, very manfully, in his opinion, to take upon themselves the responsibility of proposing a plan on that subject. He regretted, however, that on the subject now before the House, they had shown a disposition to withdraw from a similar responsibility, by proposing the appointment of a committee to consider it; and that on the plea that they were not competent or proper judges. He very readily allowed that the Members of whom the Committee was to consist would probably be free from Government influence; but if a committee was considered the best course in this instance, why not refer the Civil List to a similar committee, to proceed immediately to the discharge of their functions?—Why adopt two courses.
Mr. D. W. Harveysaid, he was surprised at, and regretted the speeches which had just been delivered by the hon. members for Dorset and Guildford, for they were conceived in a most ungenerous spirit. Had his Majesty's Ministers proposed a committee composed of themselves, or their immediate dependants, no hon. Members would have assailed the plan with greater vehemence or indignation. The course pursued by the noble Lord was manly, and indicative of good intentions. The Ministers proposed to effect economy by their own example, and at the same time to disarm those who might complain of its rigour by an appeal to their own privations, effected indeed, not by themselves, but at the instance of a committee selected from political opponents and unconnected parties. Economy in ministerial offices is to be the basis of general retrenchment, and it was impossible to deny that the plan proposed was the most impartial method of effecting both objects, and would obtain for its authors

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the esteem and affection of the country. But it was alleged that economy of this description, however sincerely or extensively carried, would work no sensible good, but rather excite groundless and delusive expectations. This assertion he would at once meet by a firm and unqualified denial. The saving itself would be something, but its moral influence would be of incalculable importance. It was the death-blow of corruption, and would speak comfort to despairing millions. The labours of the proposed committee would be the herald of the greatest benefit, for out of them other committees would be formed, whose inquiries would embrace millions of money, and legions of placemen. When he reflected on the hideous and frightful list of greedy sinecurists which had recently been published, ascending in its scale from the suspicious item of 1,000 l. to the inordinate and appalling sum of 10,000 l. a-year, increasing in amount as it approached to the total absence of all labour—with little to do by any, and nothing to do with by far the greater portion—which list exceeded in amount 2,000,000 l. per annum, being, in fact, nearly one-seventh of the entire expenditure of the country, apart from the interest applicable to the National Debt; he, for one, would not disguise the expectation, that the Committee would, by one stroke of indignant extinction, secure the instant saving of at least 1,000,000 l. yearly. Such a committee, when appointed, would ill discharge its duty—spread despondency through the land, and chill the sanguine, and, he trusted, well-grounded expectations of the people, if they did not promptly and readily reduce this disgusting army of placemen, at least one-half. But this was not the only list which must undergo the operation of the pruning-knife. There was another catalogue, not less objectionable in its character and origin, and whose recipients were more diversified and cringing; having for its minimum 200 l., and its maximum 1,000 l. a-year, out of which a corresponding saving might be effected. Cutoff and cut down this rotten list, and from the stem of an unsightly pensioner, a steady patriot would arise, for then every discarded placeman, and every defeated aspirant, would perceive that his own interest was inseparable from, and in strict communion with, that of his country. Reward real services well; but no longer let us endure an army of corruptionists, who
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live in idleness upon the industry of the people, and whose horrid reward of their peculation and servility, is little less in amount than one-third of the entire poor-rate of England. It had been objected, in the course of the debate, that the removal of Sir Anthony Hart, as Chancellor of Ireland, to make room for Lord Plunkett, and thus creating an additional burthen, by a retiring pension to the former, was a sad omen of ministerial economy. Now he was one of those who lamented the union of the office of Chancellor in either country with political duties, having always contended, that the Equity Judges, like those at Common Law, should be permanent and irremovable. Yet such was not the case, and he was fearful not likely to become so; while, therefore, it remained otherwise, he contended, that the new Government acted wisely in having no associates who did not actively sympathise in their grand plans of national reform. Even neutrality was dangerous. He beheld in the present Government an association of pure men with pure objects— and no men of suspicious feelings must be allowed to creep in, or keep in, their counsels. Thank Heaven! we no longer witnessed an unnatural coalition of heterogeneous elements, continued, through unworthy means, for a pernicious end; there were now no spies in the camp—no fine female form flitting down the back-stairs of the Court—no high Officer of State to approach the King, and distil his "leprous venom" in the royal ear. Whatever difficulties might encircle the infant Administration, they could find no excuse for tardy steps, or dubious measures, from the want of a confiding Sovereign, or a concurring Parliament; at least, if the present Parliament was refractory, they had only to appeal to the people, whose confidence they possessed, and whose esteem they had it in their power permanently to enjoy. For himself, he would say, that though he retained his old seat, he of late found himself amongst strange and uncongenial spirits, and was quite willing, upon a suitable occasion, to obey the Apostolic injunction, and "Come out from amongst them." [Reiterated cheers from all parts of the House, and much laughter.—The hon. member for Colchester spoke from the Opposition side of the House, surrounded on all sides by the principal leaders of the late Government.]

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—He quite understood the cheers of those about him, whose long habits of office led them to convert every expression of support into some unworthy expectation; still he would not be deterred from avowing his entire confidence in the new Ministers, and his determination, so long as their measures deserved it—and of which he had no misgivings—of giving to them, whether he was in or out of office, the full benefit of his vote and voice; for, in so doing, he felt, he was best serving his country, and obeying not only his own decided impressions, but also acting in strict conformity to the views and wishes of those to whose kindness and confidence he owed the high distinction of being in a situation to address the House.
Mr. Horace Twissexpressed his persuasion, that if his Majesty's Ministers wished to have the vote of the hon. member for Colchester, they must pay a higher public price for it than he fancied they were at present disposed to give. He did not rise to oppose the noble Lord's motion: quite the contrary. He supported it; not because he admitted the validity of all the principles maintained by the hon. Gentleman behind him, but because he thought the course proposed by the noble Lord honourable to his character, as well as consistent and proper. For himself, although he believed that during the last two or three Sessions retrenchment had been carried as far as, under all the circumstances of the case, it could be carried, yet he always cherished the hope, that in succeeding Sessions it might be carried still further. Of course the process would be continually diminishing the amount on which it would be practicable to operate. Now, however, at the opening of a new Session—at the commencement of a new Administration—when the noble Lord and his friends were unfettered by any extrinsic considerations, he thought his Majesty's Government were conferring a great benefit on the country, by proposing that this subject should undergo a strict and impartial investigation. Not that he believed that any very considerable saving could be effected (for he agreed with the noble Lord that the principal object was to satisfy the country), but that he thought it was exceedingly desirable to disabuse the public mind, and to expose the monstrous exaggerations and enormous errors which prevailed, with reference to official remuneration and emoluments. If the
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members of the Committee should be unable to render themselves popular by recommending a saving, the amount of which would occasion any great and permanent benefit to the public service, they might at least effect a great benefit, by establishing some principle on which the remuneration of the great Officers of the State should be assessed. In this respect he thought they might do a great public service; and with respect to any reduction of salaries which they might propose, he trusted that they would apply their recommendation to such salaries as had no correspondent labours, rather than to those which were given for efficient services.
Lord John Russellhad heard, with great regret, those hon. Gentlemen who, before the arrangement which had been alluded to had been completed in Ireland, had thought proper to censure it. He trusted, that when that arrangement was completed, it would be found economical as compared with other arrangements of a similar nature. But, undoubtedly, the moral and political character of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland was a consideration of far greater importance than the amount of any economy on that subject which could be effected. The hon. Member who had just spoken said, that he considered the principal object which could be obtained by the Committee which his noble friend proposed, was to allay the ferment in the public mind on the subject of official emoluments, and to show that official remuneration was, generally speaking, not more than adequate to official service. For his own part, he thought that his noble friend had taken the best course to refer the subject to the consideration of a committee of independent Members; and he agreed with the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, that there was much exaggeration in the statements respecting official emoluments, and that there was much which could not be subjected to retrenchment without a breach of national faith. But of this he was quite sure, that it would not be in the power of that Committee, or of the House, to satisfy the country, when they refused retrenchment even on the most solid grounds. The cause was, the manner in which the House was at present constituted. He was persuaded, that while there were so many Members in that House who did not enter it by popular election, so long would suspicion attach

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to the motives of the Members, even when they acted most correctly; so long would the people be prejudiced against their acts; and so long would the country withhold its confidence from them. For that reason, were it only for the sake of keeping the public establishments at the point at which they ought to be kept, at the point at which it was necessary, for the good and safety of the country, they should be kept; he wished for a solid, a substantial, but at the same time a temperate reform. He was persuaded that then, and not till then, it would be in the power of any committee of that House to allay, by their acts, the ferment in the public mind, with respect to the amount of official appointments and salaries. He looked forward with hope and confidence to the time when the Ministry of this country might refer to the consideration of a House, consisting of the genuine Representatives of the people, any measure which they might think necessary for the public service, in the full confidence that men chosen for their integrity and their judgment, in giving their approbation to such measure, would carry with them the confidence of the public that they had given it on solid grounds of public interest, and not on any considerations of a private character.
Mr. Keith Douglaswas quite of opinion, with the hon. member for Colchester—that the utmost practicable economy was indispensably necessary for the safety of the country; and strongly recommended that some means should be adopted for relieving the people from the distress in which they were involved by want of employment. He agreed with the noble Lord, that the best course was, to submit the subject to the consideration of a committee, and did not agree with the hon. member for Guildford, that it would have been better had Ministers proposed a plan of their own. There could be no doubt that public officers should be adequately paid for the efficient performance of public services; but in leaving this subject to the consideration of a committee, he thought the noble Lord had done much better than if he had originated any spontaneous and voluntary recommendation.
Mr. Jephsonwas understood to say, that the Government would have done better had it not followed the precedents set by other Administrations, and had
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taken the opportunity of separating the office of Lord Chancellor from any political attributes. The late appointments were, he believed, very unpopular. It had long been felt at the Bar of Ireland, that the legal appointments in that country were not the result of superior merit; and the recent proceedings would confirm that conviction.
Sir Francis Burdettsaid, that he should not have trespassed upon the House on this occasion, but he felt that he could hardly do justice to his constituents, or to himself, if he did not take the earliest opportunity of explicitly declaring his feelings with respect to the present Administration, of avowing his confidence in the Gentlemen who composed it, and of stating his belief, that there never had been any Administration in this country, which in so short a time (he might say, before they were well placed in their offices) had come forward so promptly, so earnestly, and so satisfactorily, in proposing so many advantages to the public, and had done so many acts in earnest of the sincerity of their professions, as the gentlemen to whom he should now have the honour—if they proceeded upon the principles which they had laid down, and pursued their course in the same way they had hitherto done—of giving his unequivocal support in every way in his power. The new Administration offered new hopes to the country, and he hoped it would be the means of relieving it from the consequences of the uncontrolled misgovernment to which it had till now been subject. With respect to the particular subject now before the House, he could not conceive how it could be better dealt with, than in the way that was proposed, nor did he see the advantage of Ministers coming forward, and placing themselves in the invidious situation of reducing emoluments. He agreed with the hon. Member who had just sat down, that no benefit would arise to the public from a niggardly scale of economy, or from withholding a fair remuneration for services which ought to be not merely amply, but, he would say, generously and liberally paid. The posts to which duties of this nature were attached ought to be held out, not only as objects of ambition, but ought to present such objects as would induce men of ability to employ their talents and their energies in the public service, rather than in any other of the pursuits in which, from their

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station in life, they might be likely to engage. He should be sorry to see clerks, in official situations, not handsomely and generously remunerated; and, so far as regarded the great Officers of State, he did not himself conceive that any retrenchment could be made, or, at all events, it could only be to a very limited extent. In most cases the salaries of office did no more than meet the necessary expenses that were attendant upon the appointment. He must therefore. protest against that niggardly economy which would produce nothing to the public, and would be in itself ungenerous and unjust. But the larger economy alluded to by the hon. member for Colchester was of a different kind. With that this Committee would have nothing to do, and the public could derive no benefit from its labours in that respect. But this Administration had to do with it; and on that subject they were bound to proceed as they had promised. A noble Lord below him had truly stated, that no effectual economy could be realised, and no difficulties thoroughly overcome, unless that House were differently constituted from what it was at present. The mode in which the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had conducted himself, on every occasion since he had assumed office, was such as, in every possible view, to challenge public approbation and confidence. It was manifest, from the measures of those now in power, that they had been selected on account of their talents, and on account of their agreeing as to the necessity of a new mode and form of Government, such as the present circumstances of the country demanded. There was only one thing in the recent change which he regretted, but there must always be something to be regretted in the most favourable events. There was a right hon. Baronet* whom he should have been glad to see comprised in the new arrangement, because he was sure, from the diligence and ability which he had applied to subjects of finance, his experience would have been most valuable, and the benefit of his services would have been in every way gratifying to the wishes of the public. Such was the only subject of regret which he had on the present occasion. He congratulated the country also On the circumstance of the Ministers
* Sir F. Burdett was understood to allude to Sir H. Parnell.
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being supported by a King, who not only attracted towards himself the loyalty which characterised every constitutional Englishman, but who was remarkable for the exercise of those virtues which ensured devoted attachment to the person, as well as fidelity to the King on the Throne, and whose support would enable the Ministers to carry those strong measures which might be necessary for the interests of the country. They would also be supported by those who had no other views the public views; and he was persuaded that the country, notwithstanding the difficulties by which it was surrounded, would have no reason to despair, but, on the contrary, every reason to hope, that all the evils which pressed upon it would be speedily alleviated, and would, by that ability and attention which he was confident would be applied to them, be altogether, and finally, relieved. With these feelings he had thought that he should not be acting fairly, either by the Government or his constituents, if he did not express his confidence in the present Ministry, and his expectation that they would succeed in pleasing all parties. But there was, indeed, one party which he had forgotten, and which had been mentioned by an individual very conversant with business, and well calculated to form a judgment, as more mischievous than any other party. The individual was a great diplomatist, and the party to which he alluded was that of the "Impatients." They were the only party who now remained to be dealt with, and he trusted that the Government would, by its measures, confirm the favourable impressions which its course had hitherto created.
Mr. Goulburnagreed perfectly with the hon. Baronet in the propriety of fairly remunerating public men for their services, and of not resorting to a petty economy, calculated to defeat its own object. He hoped that the measures which his Majesty's present Government intended to bring forward would prove as beneficial as he could not doubt they intended them to be. When he was himself a member of Government, and brought forward any measure which he thought advantageous to the country, he always thought it entitled to a candid construction. In the same manner, although he should use due vigilance with respect to the measures which might be brought forward by the present Govern-

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ment, he was ready to put upon those measures the most candid construction.
Mr. Littletondeclared his great satisfaction at the observations which had just been made by his right hon. friend. Considering the station which that right hon. Gentleman had occupied, he was sure the people of England would mark with great applause the handsome conduct which he now pursued. He hoped that an end would be put, as far as was practicable, to the system of managing business by Committees of that House. He thought that the interests of monarchy in the country had been greatly prejudiced by the practice of delegating to committees of the people matters which ought to be arranged by the Crown, under the responsibility, of course, of the King's advisers. There was one point adverted to by the hon. member for Dorsetshire, upon which he would make an observation. He, for one, approved of the appointment of Lord Plunkett as Chancellor of Ireland. He considered that it was the duty of the heads of the Administration to see that there were placed in those posts of which they had the patronage persons with whom they could have a cordial and confidential understanding in the principles which they professed. They should not lose any opportunity which their patronage offered of receiving the services of such men; and he was sure that the people of England would not regret a few thousand pounds in addition, if that expenditure strengthened an Administration whose professions had already gained them so much credit.
Lord Valletortconcurred in the observation of the hon. Baronet, that public servants ought to be properly remunerated. If individuals were employed who were without the necessary practical knowledge, great and permanent injury might result to the country. He meant also, though sitting on the same side of the House as the hon. member for Colchester, to have the pleasure, and to him it would be a great one from its novelty, of voting with him for the present Ministers whenever their actions deserved his support.
Sir E. B. Sugdencould not conceive why another Judge should be appointed in the place of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland. It ought not to be forgotten, that Sir Anthony Hart was not appointed by the late Government, but by the Government of Mr. Canning. When it was re-collected that many of the present Minis-
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ters coalesced, and joined, and, if he might use so vulgar an expression, worked with that Administration, which appointed Sir Anthony Hart, he would ask, was it not curious, that without any reason given, without any ground advanced, with reference only to political sentiments, they should now remove him? Sir Anthony Hart was not a political character, he had never been a member of the House of Commons, nor was he ever placed in a situation where he could manifest strong political feelings. Did it not then appear extraordinary that Lord Chancellor Hart should be deposed, to make room for Lord Plunkett, merely on the allegation that it was right that every Government should have perfect confidence in the political sentiments of all who were in any way connected with it? Was there any thing in the political sentiments of Sir Anthony Hart which rendered it fit that he should be removed? If such a case were made out—if it were shown that the political sentiments of that Gentleman prevented him from forming a close and cordial connection with Ministers— then he would, for one, admit (hard as it was on the country to be burthened with those large payments) that his removal was justifiable. But when Ministers came forward with professions of economy, and at the same time settled a pension of 4,000 l. a-year on one learned Judge, and of somewhere about 3,000 l. a year upon another, no necessity being pointed out for such a proceeding, it could not escape without animadversion. He did not mean to say that it might not be justified; but unquestionably some reason ought to be given for entailing so large an expense on the country.
Lord Palmerstonexpressed his surprise, after his noble friend had clearly stated that he should be able satisfactorily to explain this transaction, when the details of the arrangement came before the House, to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman make the accusation which he had just done.
Sir E. B. Sugden:—I did not hear the noble Lord's speech.
Lord Palmerstonwas sorry that the hon. hon. and learned Gentleman was not in the House when his noble friend made his statement; but he thought that a person of the hon. and learned Gentleman's experience ought not to have given utterance to such unqualified opinions without hearing the speech which he rose to answer.

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He, however, made those observations, it now appeared, without hearing that speech. He did not mean at present to go into any large discussion on the arrangement in question, because, on a future occasion, the details would be fully stated, and on them the propriety of the proceeding would be defended. But he must say, that it required no great intelligence to show, notwithstanding what had been said by the hon. and learned Gentleman, that the situation of Chancellor could not be divested of political character. The person who held the situation of Chancellor, either of England or Ireland, was obliged to have constant communication with the Ministers of the Crown, and he must, therefore, possess their full political confidence; very great inconvenience would ensue if that seat were occupied by an individual not possessing that confidence. One of the parties alluded to, he believed, wished to retire; and the whole arrangement would, he had no doubt, give satisfaction to the country. The statement of his noble friend seemed to meet the general approbation of the House. He was anxious that it should do so, because Ministers felt that it was only by the concurrence of that House that they could act for the benefit of the country. They came into office at a period of peculiar difficulty, in whatever way they looked to the various interests which were committed to their charge; but it was gratifying to them to find, so far as they had explained the principle which they meant to pursue, that it met with the approbation of the House, as he was persuaded it would that of the country; and it was only so long as they possessed the confidence of both, that they wished to continue in the situation which they now held.
Mr. Calcraftcontended, that his hon. and learned friend (Sir E. B. Sugden) had a right to make the observations he had done on a subject which had been twice or thrice mentioned in the House, until he received the information he demanded. He now begged leave to state his own opinion with respect to that appointment. Looking to the talents and experience of the noble Lord (Plunkett), and considering the great service which he might render in Ireland, he thought that any Government which could avail themselves of his assistance in the public service, would be extremely culpable if it neglected to do so.
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He regretted that any additional expense should be imposed on the country, but he did not begrudge it, as it was the means of procuring Lord Plunkett's services. In speaking of the present Administration, it ought not to be forgotten that they acceded to office under circumstances more favourable to reform than had ever occurred before. At no preceding period had reform taken such an extensive and powerful hold of the public mind as at present. He felt no desire to oppose Ministers; but if he differed from them, he would speak his opinion freely and decidedly. He agreed with the hon. Baronet that it would be unworthy of a great nation to cut down with a parsimonious hand the salaries of individuals in subordinate offices. He entreated the Government, when they had dealt with their own salaries, not to visit the subordinate officers, he meant clerks, with the same severity which they might exercise with respect to themselves, for the little time he had been in office had taught him that what were called large emoluments were, in fact, small emoluments, and hardly sufficient to enable those persons to support themselves. Many of those individuals, after thirty or forty years' service, could not boast of having acquired an independence for their families.
Mr. G. Bankessaid, that without meaning any disrespect to Lord Plunkett, he thought that Sir Anthony Hart was equally fitted for the office of Chancellor. He could see no reason for the translation of the former, whose services were already secured in another situation. It was a most singular thing, that the noble Secretary was himself a member of the very Administration by whom Sir A. Hart was appointed; and the same observation would apply to other members of the Government. How, then, he would ask the noble Lord, had Sir Anthony Hart forfeited the confidence of the present Government? Not only was the same Lord Lieutenant now going to Ireland that was there when Sir Anthony Hart was appointed, but the noble Secretary and other members of his Majesty's Government were then in office. What, then, was the ground of Sir Anthony Hart's removal? They were told that some plan of economy, that some system of reform, was in contemplation. An expense of 4,000 l. a-year was to be entailed on the country—but still economy would be attended to. Now, he would ask, had

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Ministers tried whether Sir Anthony Hart was adverse to their plan of economy? Because, if he were not, this 4,000 l. a-year might have been gained, Sir Anthony Hart still remaining Chancellor, in addition to what would be produced by the intended reductions. He knew that length of service and bodily infirmity might, in some cases, be alleged to justify a retiring allowance. But he had not heard any such plea in this instance.
Colonel Sibthorpsaid, he had no desire to oppose the present Administration, but he wished to ask the noble Lord opposite whether the appointment of Comptroller of the Navy had been again filled up? —whether anew Clerk of the Council had been appointed since the death of Mr. Buller?—and whether an Ambassador was still to be maintained at Vienna, at an expense of 12,000 l.? There were rumours abroad on these subjects which made him wish for positive information. The hon. member for Staffordshire had said, that the people would not grudge a few thousands extra, provided their servants were well paid, but they ought to know that their servants were not those right hon. and honourable Gentlemen who ran about all ways except the way they ought to go for the public good.
Lord Althorpsaid, that with respect to the situation of Comptroller of the Navy, he could not give the hon. Member any information. As to the appointment of second Clerk to the Council, he could give a satisfactory answer. Before the late Administration left office, the King's pleasure was taken on the appointment of Mr. Bathurst as second Clerk of the Council. His appointment was not made by the present Ministers, but by their predecessors. The only thing they had to do with the office was, to reduce the salary from 2,000 l. to l,200 l. a-year. As to the embassy to Vienna, no change had taken place in it.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that with respect to the Clerk of the Council, his Majesty's late Ministers had contemplated an arrangement when the office became vacant, which would have led to a reduction even more beneficial to the public, perhaps, than the present.
Mr. R. Colbornewas friendly to a just economy, but he was sure that it would be found a very bad species of economy to under-pay public servants.
Mr. Laboucherewished to repeat the
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question which was put the other night by the hon. member for Bletchingly. He understood that no less than four pensions had been granted by the Duke of Wellington, or the late Administration, the date of which was subsequent to the virtual resignation of office by the noble Duke. He was desirous of learning how far this was correct. He could not but express his surprise that the right hon. Gentleman ("Mr. Goulburn) had blamed the noble Lord (Althorp) who had so lately come into office, because he was not acquainted with the nature of a certain treaty, at the same time that the right hon. Gentleman had himself declared his entire ignorance of the point to which his (Mr. Labouchere's) question referred, although he certainly ought to have been informed on the subject.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, the hon. Member had no need to ask him this question, because one of the hon. Member's friends had moved for a return of those particular pensions, and it was now on the Table of the House. He had refused to answer the question formerly; because, with respect to a date, it was better to refer to a document than merely to trust to recollection. It appeared by the return, that the order for those pensions was dated the 16th of November.
Mr. O'Connellstated, that he had two reasons for not giving his opinion with respect to the judicial appointment which had been referred to. The first was, lest, in speaking on that subject, and expressing the deep and heartfelt interest which he took in the concerns of Ireland, he might be supposed to be actuated by a personal resentment, which he despised; the other reason was, that they had not all the facts at present before them.
Mr. J. Johnstonsaid, he hoped that the proposed reforms of the Ministers would extend to Scotland, the representation of which was even more corrupt than that of England.
Motion agreed to.
The Committee was immediately appointed. Amongst its members are:— Lord Althorp, Sir Robert Peel, Mr. Goulburn, Mr. Bankes, Sir H. Parnell, Sir G. Warrender, Sir C. Wetherell, Marquis of Chandos, Sir T. Acland, Mr. Adeane, Mr. Bethel, Mr. Lawley, Sir H. Bunbury, Suit. Vyvyan, Lord Stormont, Mr. Irving, Mr. Hume, Mr. Baring, Mr. J. Wood, Sir J. Newport, and Mr. Kennedy.

ELECTORS IN CITIES AND BOROUGHS.
Mr. Hodgsonmoved for a return of persons entitled to the freedom of certain specified Cities and Boroughs, by patrimony, servitude, or marriage, who have been admitted to such freedom in each of the last four years from the present time. The hon. Member explained, that he wished to find out the number of persons who had paid a stamp-duty, or taken out their freedom, with a view to ground on that a motion for the repeal of the stamp-duty.
Mr. Crokerobjected to the Motion, which would be unattended by any beneficial effects unless it was intended to abandon the stamp-duties on taking out freedoms.
Sir C. Wetherellsaid, the proper place to obtain the information required was the Stamp-office. The return, if granted, would not convey any satisfactory information on the subject. He opposed the Motion.
Mr. G. Robinsonsaw no reason to oppose the Motion, and as the returns might be beneficial he should support it. The stamp-duties, as he knew very well, prevented many freemen from taking up their freedom.
Mr. Bankesalso expressed his approbation of the Motion.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, if the hon. Member's object was to get rid of the tax upon taking up freedoms, he should endeavour to effect it by easier and more direct means than a motion for voluminous and useless returns.
Mr. Warburtonthought the returns would be very useful, and he should like to know the number of persons who took out their freedom.
Mr. D. W. Harveythought the hon. Member's object would be as well, or better attained, by a motion for the repeal of the tax at a proper time—a motion which should receive his support.
Mr. Hodgsonconsented to withdraw his motion, and expressed an intention to move for a repeal of the tax on a future opportunity. When he should bring that motion forward, he hoped he should not be accused of wishing to proceed in the dark because he had withdrawn his present motion.

COURT OF CHANCERY.
Mr. Spenceobserved, that the paper which he now sought to obtain was one that would be most necessary in the ensuing inquiries
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respecting Reform in the Court of Chancery. His object was, to effect reduction in the expenses of a suit in that Court, and to place the Court on the same footing as in the 40th of Elizabeth, when the number of officers there was amply sufficient for the purposes required. One of his plans was, to get rid of Recitals, and to incorporate Orders in the proceedings themselves. The document he required was absolutely necessary for his purposes. The hon. Member concluded by moving, "That the Clerk of the Rolls," or other proper Officer, lay before the House a Copy of the Presentment of John Shuck-burgh, Thomas Poole, and others, chosen by the right hon. Thomas Egerton, Knight, Lord-Keeper of the Great Seal of England, to inquire and present upon articles for the better reformation of sundry exactions and abuses supposed to be committed by Officers, Clerks, and Ministers in his Majesty's High Court of Chancery, made the 8th day of March, in the fortieth year of the reign of Queen Elizabeth."
Sir E. B. Sugdendid not oppose the Motion, as the hon. and learned Gentleman pledged himself to the necessity of having the document.
The Attorney Generalconsented to the Motion. The document asked for was most important.
Sir E. B. Sugdenreminded the House that he had intended to bring in a bill to regulate the practice of the Court of Chancery, and on Tuesday he should take the opportunity of stating what were his views on the subject.
Motion agreed to.

REGENCY BILL.
Lord Althorp,in moving the second reading of the Regency Bill, expressed his entire approbation of the measure, which appeared to him to be extremely well conceived. He did not consider that there was any infringement of the Constitution. There would be an infringement of the Constitution if a person with the sovereign power was deprived of his prerogative; if the prerogative were fit to be given to the Sovereign, it was also fit to be given to the person acting as Regent. He was glad, therefore, that this Bill appointed no Council of Regency, as had been done by former bills.
Sir C. Wetherellalso gave his entire approbation to the principle of the measure, and observed, that the noble Lord

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who had introduced it to the other House had gained great honour by the clear and manly speech he made on that occasion; but he could not assent to the supposition that no case could arise in which a Council of Regency would be necessary. He contended, that in the event of the death of the King:, leaving the Queen pregnant, the Crown should immediately descend on the Heir Presumptive. In that respect he approved of the principle of the Bill. He thought that the Act should be declaratory of the law that the Sovereignty should devolve on the Presumptive Heir at once. He should propose to add to the clause declaring that the Crown should so descend, these words:—" Her said royal highness shall be, and be deemed, and taken to be, and is hereby declared to be, the actual Sovereign of these realms, subject to the limitation hereinafter mentioned." There was one other deficiency in the Bill. In the event of the birth of a posthumous child of his present Majesty, the Bill did not provide for the cesser of the Sovereignty of the Princess Victoria. He should, therefore, propose to add these words: "That immediately on the birth of such child, the Sovereign title shall descend to him or her; and it is hereby declared, that the Princess Victoria's right shall cease and determine, and that such child shall be, and shall be deemed and taken to be, and is hereby declared to be, the lawful Sovereign of these realms, in the same manner as if he had succeeded the Princess Victoria in the possession of the Throne of these realms."
Mr. Hughes Hughesthought there was another omission in the Bill, and that was, that if the power of the Regent ceased there was no distinct provision made for the exercise of the powers of Sovereignty. He should move to supply that defect in the Committee.
Sir E. B. Sugdenremarked, that his hon. and learned friend, who proposed to make that law a declaratory law, forgot that it was impossible to do so unless that and the other House of Parliament first agreed in a resolution that such as that hon. and learned Member wished to make the law was actually now the Law of the land. A declaratory law was only a declaration of a law actually pre-existing, but respecting which there had been some doubts. He was disposed to meet the learned Gentleman (Sir C. Wetherell)
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fairly and openly in the discussion on the clauses he had mentioned; but he confessed he thought the Bill perfect without them, and that Parliament was competent to deal with the cases alluded to whenever they arose, if they ever did arise at all.
Lord Morpethexpressed his entire approbation of the Bill. It was the happiness of the people at present to have a Sovereign on the Throne in whom they placed the most perfect confidence; but it was still more for their happiness that the laws of the realm did not trust its safety and security to any thing so unstable as human character.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusonconsidered the Bill perfect, and the additional clauses consequently unnecessary. The noble Lord who framed and introduced it deserved the greatest praise for the whole Bill, and he should be sorry to see it undergo any alteration.
The Attorney Generalsaid, that any objection to the clauses might be urged with better effect when they came to consider the details in the committee. In his opinion the Bill at present accomplished what his hon. and learned friend wished.
Mr. Campbellsaid, that at present the law was not at all doubtful, and that he, therefore, should object to the clauses proposed by the hon. and learned member for Borough bridge.
Lord John Russellapproved of the principle of the Bill, and hoped it would pass with unanimity.
Bill read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.