Commons Sitting of 7 December 1830

MINUTES.
Lord ALTHORP, for Northamptonshire; the right hon. R. GRANT, for Norwich; the right hon. P. THOMSON, for Dover; F. T. BAKING, esq., for Portsmouth; and WM. EWART, esq., took the Oaths and their Seats.
The Regency Bill was brought down from the Lords, and read a first time. The Consolidated Fund Bill was read a third time and passed.
Bills for Amending the Laws relating to Turnpike-roads (Scotland), and to appoint Land-tax Commissioners were brought in.
Petitions presented. For the immediate abolition of Slavery, by Mr. BAYNTUN, from York:—By Sir H. PARNELL, from Maryborough, in the Queen's County:—By Mr. EVANS, from Melton Mowbray:—By Mr. TVRELL, from Braybrooke, and several places in Essex:—By Mr. J. JOHN-STONE, from Dumfermline:—By Lord HOWICK, from Arbroath:—By Mr. WATSON, from Canterbury:— By Mr. ORMSBY GORE, from a place in Caernarvon:—By Mr. WM. DUNCOMBE, several from Halifax and other places in Yorkshire:—By Mr. ADEANE, from Elm, in the Isle of Ely:—By Sir H. H. BUNBURY, from five places in Suffolk:—By Colonel WARD, two Petitions from Breconshire, against the continuance of Slavery. For Reform, by Mr. J. WOOD, from Oldham:—By Mr. S. LUMLEY, from Sutton cum Ashfield:—By Mr. J. JOHNSTONS, from the Corporation of Hammermen in Edinburgh. By Sir H. PARNELL, from the Queen's County, praying an amelioration of the system of Public Education in Ireland.

SALARIES AND EMOLUMENTS.
Lord Althorp Lord Althorp, the new Chancellor of the Exchequer, amidst the most profound silence throughout the House, which had previously been rather disturbed, rose and spoke as follows: — "Mr. Speaker I have now to announce to the House, that it is my intention upon Thursday next to move that a Select Committee be appointed, to inquire into what reductions can and ought to be made in the Salaries and Emoluments of all officers in his Majesty's service, holding places at the pleasure of the Crown, and being Members of Parliament." The noble Lord sat down amidst vehement and reiterated cheers, which for a long time resounded through the House.

CIVIL LIST.
Lord Althorp Lord Althorp, as soon as the cheering had subsided, again rose and gave notice, that on Friday next he should propose in the Committee of Supply, a vote, on account for the Civil List.
Sir H. Purnellinquired what course his Majesty's Ministers meant to pursue with respect to the Civil List—was it to be brought immediately before the House, or was it to be postponed till after the new
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Ministers had been able to prepare new estimates.
Lord Althorpsaid, that he presumed that the House was very well aware that Ministers disapproved of the mode in which the Civil List had been made up by their predecessors in office. Nevertheless, they did not as yet feel themselves justified, upon their own responsibility, to take into consideration what alterations ought to be made in the Civil List, and he trusted that the House would be good enough to give them time to take the subject in hand, and to produce the plan which they might wish ultimately to prevail. What he now proposed to do was, to ask of the House to grant a sum on account, until he was prepared with a permanent measure. The House was well aware, and gentlemen who had recently been in office must be peculiarly aware, that it was absolutely necessary for him to have a certain degree of time, in order to be prepared to enter into the question of the Civil List, in a manner satisfactory to that House, and satisfactory to the public. Very early after the recess, he would bring forward his proposition, and would endeavour to meet the wishes of the public, while he provided for the dignity of the Crown.

LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND.
Mr. G. Dawsonsaid, that as far as he was personally concerned he should waive any opposition to the plan proposed. He wished to put one question to his Majesty's Ministers, founded upon a report that had got abroad. Was Sir Anthony Hart about to retire from the Chancellorship of Ireland? and if he was, he wished to know whether he did or did not retire with his own consent? He knew that a little gentle violence had been necessary, but at length it had been successful, before a noble Lord, lately an hon. Member of that House could be persuaded to take the Great Seal of England, and he believed a very little of the same kind of force would be sufficient to make Sir A. Hart remain in office, and save the country a considerable sum. A pension of 4,000 l. a-year would be imposed upon the country by any arrangement of this sort, and this was scarcely consistent with the economy which the Ministers had recently practised in the reduction of two offices in Ireland.
Lord Althorpreplied, that he was not

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at present able to answer the question, for, like the hon. Member himself, he had only learned the subject that day, and upon report.

COMMITTEE ON THE CIVIL LIST.
Sir R. Peeladdressed himself to Lord Althorp across the Table, and was understood to say, that as the Order of the House had already been made for the appointment of a Committee upon the Civil List, his Majesty's Ministers ought to move to rescind that order, and then to appoint another committee, as it would be very irregular and improper to keep the present committee in abeyance merely upon a private understanding that the noble Lord was preparing papers, and getting ready propositions to lay before it. He apprehended that another committee could not be appointed, nor could the subject, with propriety, be taken out of the hands of the present Committee, unless the House first rescinded the order for its appointment.
Mr. J. Woodsaid, that he had heard the proposition of the noble Lord with very great pleasure, and he felt convinced that the proposition of the noble Lord would be well received by that House, and, what was of greater importance, by the country at large. That Ministers should take a vote of credit in order to give themselves time to re-model the Civil List, and to ascertain how far they could meet the wishes of the country for retrenchment, was a proposition reasonable in itself, and nothing could be better calculated to ensure the approbation of the people out of doors, and to ensure likewise, not the approbation of "the party" within Parliament, but of the no-party to which he belonged,—the no-party, which never meant to combine in any opposition to Ministers, with a view of getting round again to those places out of which they had just been turned by the voice of the country. Considering the quarter from which the objection came,—from a person who had so lately been the leader of that House, and in occupation of a place on the Ministerial Benches,—he thought, of all men on earth, the hon. Baronet ought to be the last to throw unnecessary impediments in the way of the noble Lord. Such seemed to him to be the conduct of the hon. Baronet, who appeared to him to have said, "I will give Ministers no time whatever to prepare a Civil List,—a
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Committee is formed, and to that Committee ought immediately to be referred the Civil List got up by the preceding Treasury Bench." For his own part, he was happy to say that he thought Ministers were now pursuing a course which would entitle them to the confidence of the country, and he was convinced that the people of England would cordially approve of their taking time to consider the reductions in the Civil List, in order to lay them before that Committee, which the hon. Baronet should recollect had been appointed in direct opposition to the wishes and efforts of himself and of those who so recently acted with him.
Sir R. Peel:—Mr. Speaker, I never heard such a speech as that in my life. Is it for the hon. Gentleman, because I chose to put a question to his Majesty's Ministers on the course they means to pursue, to lecture me?—Does the hon. Gentleman consider himself entitled to lecture me, I say, upon throwing impediments in the way of his Majesty's Government? Impediments!—what impediments have I thrown in the way of the noble Lord? The noble Lord may, perhaps be perfectly reasonable, perfectly right in his wish that Government should have time to consider what Civil List they will propose to the Committee, and that the Committee shall not meet until the proposition is ready to be made. But what I say is, that an order of the House is already made that a Select Committee be appointed, and yet the noble Lord says he shall not be prepared to make any proposal to that Committee until after the Christmas recess, and therefore two months must elapse before the Committee can sit with effect. If this be so, surely there ought to be some distinct proceeding on the part of the House to sanction the non-meeting of the Committee. The hon. Gentleman says, because I was against the appointment of that Committee, I ought to be ready to acquiesce in the proposal of the noble Lord. Sir, we are to consider the orders of the House, and not the sentiments of individuals. If the noble Lord thinks that the Committee ought not to meet till after the Christmas recess, this postponement should have the direct sanction of the House.
Lord Althorpsaid, that he could recollect even in the last Session of Parliament that a Committee had been appointed upon the motion of the right hon. Baronet

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himself, to inquire into the Superannuation List, and which committee did not sit until six weeks after. He did not think his proposition either new or extraordinary, for every Member of that House who had been accustomed to sit on committees was well aware that their sitting depended very much upon the convenience of the Members composing them, and likewise on the convenience of the public business. If he had moved to rescind the Order of the House, he should only have to move the re-appointment of the committee when the propositions were ready to be brought forward. He had left the arrangement upon the usual understanding that the committee should not meet until it was convenient.
Mr. Crokersaid it would be better to appoint a new committee.
Mr. Courtenaythought it best to withdraw the papers before the committee, and to substitute others.

VOTES OF BURGESSES.
Mr. Hodgsonmoved for a return to be made by the Town Clerk of every city and borough in England and Ireland returning Members to Parliament, wherein the right of election is solely or in part in the free burgesses or freemen at large, of the number of persons entitled to the freedom of such city or borough, who have taken up their freedom within the last four years.
Mr. Bankesopposed the Motion, on the ground that the expense and inconvenience which would be incurred by such a return was infinitely disproportioned to any advantage that could be derived from it.
Mr. Hodgsonexplained, that the expense of obtaining the returns which he desired would not exceed the cost of 100 letters and 100 replies; that being the number of the town clerks from whom the information was to be obtained.
Mr. Crokersaid, that the Motion was attended with a difficulty which could not be got over. No one in that House, much less the town clerks of the several boroughs, could undertake to say who had and who had not a right to vote at elections for Members of Parliament. The House would not delegate to the persons mentioned in the hon. Gentleman's motion, the exercise of its exclusive right.
Mr. Hodgsonconsented to withdraw the Motion until Tuesday next, in order to
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insert the word "reputed" before the words "Right of Election."

RECENT PENSIONS.
Mr. Tennysoninquired of the hon member for Armagh, whether there was any truth in the report that the late Administration had procured the addition of several names to the Pension List, after the head of that Ministry had virtually resigned?
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that he believed one pension had been granted on the morning of the day on which the late Ministry resigned. He had not heard of more than one such grant.

SCOTCH LAW OF ENTAIL.
Mr. Kennedymoved for leave to bring in three Bills relative to the Law of Entail in Scotland. The House he said, would probably recollect, that the subject was not new, as committees were appointed to inquire into it in 1828 and 1829, and bills were introduced into the House under the sanction and approbation of these committees. In 1829, two bills would undoubtedly have passed, had it not been for the peculiar pressure of business, for with a few exceptions, a very favourable opinion of them was entertained. The two first bills he proposed to bring in on the present occasion, were the same as those of 1829. The third was contained in the bill of 1828, but was not brought forward in 1829. It was universally admitted, that the law of Scotland upon the subject of entail required amendment, and he proposed by the first bill, to provide that any property entailed in future in Scotland should be entailed upon a plan practically similar to the law of England, but adapted to the law of Scotland. By the second bill he proposed to provide, that persons in possession of entailed estates, should receive certain powers over those estates, which were very much wanted, to enable parties in possession of property to do justice to their estates. By the third bill he proposed to enact, that on the expiration of the lives of all persons interested in property at the passing of this Act, it shall be in the power of the first unborn heir to make a new settlement of the estate, and thus that the principle of the old law shall, as relates to their successors, become merged in that of the new law. By this provision, the existing law would not be altered until the demise of all heirs in being. He neither wished nor intended to enter into

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any discussion on the merits of the bills upon the present occasion. The law of Scotland upon this point had already been much discussed by the committees upstairs, by the House, and by a great portion of the Scotch people, and he only wished to introduce the bills now, in order that ample time might be given for their consideration. With this object in view, he should simply move for leave to bring them in, and then suffer them to lie over until after the holidays. Though anxious not to detain the House, he could not help remarking, that the law had not been found to secure the objects for which it was provided, and every object which the Legislature had in view when that law was passed had been defeated. So injurious, indeed, had been its operation, that, in many cases, it had had the effect of reducing to poverty, affluent persons, whose property was entailed. To these brief observations upon the general subject, he would take the liberty of adding, that, considering the peculiar times in which we live, a revision and a correction of the abuses of the law of entail, was a matter of serious importance. A very considerable, perhaps the greater portion of the landed property of Scotland is entailed. Under the existing law it is impossible that improvements upon property of this kind can be effected, in very many cases, which under a different law might be done with much benefit, not only to the individuals concerned, but to a large portion of the people of Scotland, who would then have an important source of employment opened to them. Of the necessity of affording employment to the agricultural poor, convincing proofs had lately been given in this part of the empire; but the House could hardly be aware of the very extensive field which would be opened to the industry of the labouring classes in Scotland under a different law of entail, since much capital now unemployed might then be most beneficially laid out upon land. Such a consideration at the present time should attach an additional importance to the subject. He trusted, therefore, that no objection would be made to the introduction of the bills already known to the House. He felt called upon by consistency, and by the regard which he naturally entertained for the country with which he was connected, to renew that which must be admitted by every one to
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be a most difficult task, but from which, in the absence of others better qualified than himself, he would not shrink. The hon. Member concluded by making the motion he mentioned at the beginning of his speech.
Sir George Clerkadmitted, that the subject of the law of entail in Scotland was of infinite importance, and required mature consideration; for which reason he should not offer the slightest opposition to the introduction of the bills. At the same time, however, his hon. friend must not suppose, because the introduction of the bills was not opposed — that the Members for Scotland would, therefore, cordially support every detail of the measures. Everybody must be aware of the importance of the law of entail in Scotland, where so much property is entailed, although there was still sufficient land unentailed in Scotland to prevent any great mischief arising from a deficiency of means to afford employment to the agricultural poor. The hon. and learned Gentleman was quite mistaken in supposing that there is no field for the employment of capital in the purchase of land in Scotland. At this very moment a greater portion of the surface of Scotland was for sale than of any other part of the empire. If the hon. and learned Member's bills were precisely the same as those of last year, he must oppose some of their provisions. He was prepared to amend this branch of the Scotch law to a certain extent; but if either of the bills contained any proposition for a repeal of the Act passed seven years ago, and from which Scotland had derived the greatest advantages, he should certainly feel himself bound to oppose it. He would not go into any detail at the present moment; but as it was one in which the interests of Scotland were deeply involved, he trusted that it would meet with the attention which such a measure deserved, and that a proper opportunity would be allowed for discussing it. He regretted to say, that bills upon this subject bad not hitherto met with that degree, of attention from either House of Parliament which their importance demanded. With respect to the third measure proposed by the hon. Member, he had not yet heard anything to induce him to assent to it, and he therefore gave him notice that he should hereafter uniformly oppose it, though he would not object to their motion.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusontrusted that this most important subject would meet with greater attention than it did in the last Session of Parliament. To judge, however, from the conduct of hon. Members during the discussion this evening, he could hardly flatter himself that this would be the case. He was quite satisfied that if any one had come into the House while the hon. member for Ayr was moving for leave to introduce these bills, he would never have supposed that any real or important business was under discussion, for during the time that his hon. and learned friend was addressing the House, he was perfectly sure that only those who were sitting close to him could have formed the slightest idea of the subject upon which he was speaking. The confusion was so great, that not one word of the first part of his hon. friend's address could be heard, even by those who sat only a very short distance from him. It was not upon this occasion only that he had to complain of the inattention and manifest indifference of the majority of those hon. Members who appeared to come to the House only to amuse themselves, by conversing upon subjects not connected with the business of the House. What with the talking, laughing-, and general inattention of the greater part of the House, it was quite impossible that matters of this kind,—more dry than interesting, perhaps, to those who sought only entertainment, but not on that account the less important—could be maturely or properly considered. The measures to which his hon. and learned friend had endeavoured to call the attention of the House were very important as regarded Scotland." There had been nothing like them since the period of the Union, because by them it was proposed to put an end to the system upon which the property of Scotland had hitherto rested. Although it was not his intention to oppose these measures, he was of opinion that there would be some objection to their being carried the length which his hon. and learned friend proposed. The subject required the utmost consideration, and he would therefore entreat for it the most serious attention of the Members of every part of the kingdom. Some change was necessary in this branch of the Scotch law, because all the purposes for which the law of entail was originally made have been defeated by subsequent Acts of Parliament. The principle of the old law,
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for many years past, had been entirely departed from, and many abuses and much injustice had been occasioned. It became highly important, therefore, that some measure should be adopted which would carry into effect the real intentions of the Legislature. The principle of the old law in Scotland was, that every successive heir should come into possession of his ancestors' estates free and unencumbered. Subsequent Acts, however, had defeated that principle. The Montgomery Act, together with Lord Aberdeen's Act, have so put down the interests of heirs of entail, by allowing provisions for widows and families, that persons now inheriting property by entail in Scotland, instead of possessing, as they would formerly, a handsome income, are reduced to a state of comparative poverty. To the two bills, therefore, framed for the purpose of giving relief to heirs of entail, he should give his hearty concurrence, although he doubted the possibility of ever assimilating the laws of England and Scotland upon this point without causing too great a change in the law of Scotland. He trusted that the bills would meet with the favourable consideration of the House, and especially, he trusted that those who, from their official situations, might be termed the guardians of the law of Scotland, would devote their attention to the subject, and he hoped, therefore, before the second reading of the bills that an opportunity would be afforded to these learned persons duly to consider them. It would also be highly advisable, in his opinion, that the Judges of Scotland should be consulted upon the subject, so that the measures might be finally submitted to this House in such a shape as to render them as free as possible from any objection.
Sir William Raethought, considering the importance of the subject, independently of the very able observations of his hon. and learned friend, that it would be quite impossible for the House to resist the introduction of these measures. But the subject of Scotch entails was certainly one of the most difficult that could possibly be taken up by an individual Member; and it was, therefore, with much regret that he had heard that there was no chance of its being taken up by the other House of Parliament, which, from the attendance of the Judges of the land, possessed greater facilities for properly dis-

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cussing measures of this kind than the Commons. He looked upon any measure for the purpose of improving the law of Scotland which had its origin in that House, almost with despair, for it required the sanction of the very first law authorities.
Mr. Kennedywished to offer one word in explanation, for the purpose of guarding himself against the imputation of having had the presumption to submit, upon his sole authority, any measure upon a subject of such vast importance as that of the Scotch law of entail. The House would recollect that two Select Committees had been appointed in former Sessions to consider the subject, and these bills embodied what those committees recommended as proper to amend the law. He was fully aware, that it would be the height of presumption in him to incur the responsibility of introducing such measures; but, in addition to the recommendation of the committees, these measures had received the approbation of a very learned and eminent Scotch Judge—Sir James Moncrief. Backed by such authorities he had undertaken the difficult task of endeavouring to carry these measures through Parliament.
Leave was given to bring in the Tailzies Regulation, the Tailzies Relief, and the Tailzies Amendment (Scotland) Bills.

RETURNS OF THE METROPOLITAN POLICE.
Mr. Lambmoved to discharge the Order which had been made for certain Returns respecting the Metropolitan Police, for the purpose of substituting a more extended Motion, in the form of an Address, including Returns of all Monies collected in the several Districts of the Metropolis for the payment of the Police Force now in existence; also, for Returns of the former Expenses of Nightly Watch and Day Police, with an account of all sums expended in preparing Station Houses, &c. &c.
Mr. Ridley Colbornetook that occasion to advert to the state of the disturbed districts in the vicinity of the metropolis, and of other parts of the country in the same condition, urging the necessity of issuing Special Commissions for all those Counties in which there had been disturbances for the trial of offenders. He wished to press upon his Majesty's Government the necessity which existed of making such arrangements as would pre-
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vent parties accused from being tried by the Magistrates by whom they had been committed, and with whom they might have come into personal conflict.
Lord Althorphad to state, for the information of his hon. friend, that in addition to the Commission already issued, another had passed the Great Seal for the trial of offenders in Buckinghamshire. There would be, in the issue of many more Commissions, considerable difficulty in finding Judges to try the accused. He fully concurred with his hon. friend, that none of those persons ought to be tried by the Magistrates under whose warrants they were committed, or by any person liable to be swayed by local, or any other undue influence.
Sir R. Peelobserved, that the Returns which had been moved for could not be complete unless the expense of private watchmen were included in it. Several of the parishes in the metropolis had, from the necessity of the case, been compelled to employ private watchmen; for there was, in some parishes no rate for the purpose of defraying the expense of watching. To obtain Returns showing the cost of private watchmen would be obviously impossible, and without them it would be impracticable to discover the difference between the expense of the present and the old systems.
Mr. Wilksobserved, that notwithstanding the police was said to be so good, the people would not in many cases give up their private watchmen; and with that the increase of expense was very great. Thus in Newington, Lambeth, the rates had been raised from 3,000 l. to 4,390 l. a-year; in Christ Church from 1,200 l. to 2,100 l.; and in St. George's, Hanover-square, from 5,000 l. to 17,000 l.; and in all these places he believed that the number of protectors by night was less than before. He was of opinion, that the fullest possible information ought to be obtained, and he had every hope that when a Committee was appointed to inquire into the state of the police of the metropolis, it would be found that the expense could be considerably diminished, and that some portion of it ought to be defrayed from the Consolidated Fund, and not exclusively made chargeable upon the parishes.
Mr. Lambundertook to obtain all possible information from parochial authorities, and otherwise, respecting the

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expense. He was well aware that a number of private watchmen were employed, for even yet some old ladies desired to have the hour called at night.
An Address for the various Returns was then agreed to.

CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS.
Alderman Thompsonmoved the second reading of the Charitable Institutions' Bill, in doing which he observed, that Charitable Institutions were exposed to very great hardships, and the designs of the benevolent were defeated to a very great extent, in consequence of the right assumed by Parochial Authorities, of making an assessment for Poor-rates upon property that was, and ought to be, exclusively devoted to charitable purposes. Bethlehem Hospital was rated at 2,500 l. a-year. The Trustees appealed to the Magistrates in Quarter Sessions assembled, but the Magistrates informed them that they could afford no remedy. They then appealed to the humanity and justice of the Parochial Authorities, but with similar success. The Trustees of Bethlehem Hospital alleged, most truly, that they had under their care no less than eighty-five paupers, who but for that establishment would have become chargeable upon the parish in which their house was situated. He denied that the Charity in question had accumulated property to the amount stated in the petitions presented against the Bill, and as to the ground that they occupied in the parish, he thought the objection founded upon that was fully met by the fact of the number of paupers they maintained.
Mr. N. Calvertsaid, he had been intrusted with a petition to present against the Bill. He had been informed that the Bethlehem Hospital trustees had realised property from their surplus income to the amount of 14,000 l. The rate levied some time since upon the Hospital was only one shilling in the pound —it had since been reduced to ninepence, and he really thought that the Trustees ought not to be unwilling to pay so small a rate for lighting and improving the ways leading to their princely establishment. Guy's and St. Thomas's Hospitals both paid rates, and he therefore did not see why Bethlehem was to be excepted. So large a portion of the parish was occupied by Hospitals, that unless they were rated the rates collected would be trifling.
Mr. Alderman Winchestersupported the Bill. The whole of the funds of such an institution ought to be applied to charitable purposes.
Sir R. Wilsonsaid, that he should oppose the Bill, because he looked upon it as one which was unjust in its principles, and which had been introduced at a most unseasonable time, as there was great distress in the particular district to which it had reference. The whole of the district of St. George's consisted but of 130 acres, of which thirty were occupied by charitable institutions.
Mr. Wilkssaid, that it was distinctly enacted, that all charitable institutions should be liable to pay rates, and he did not see any good reason why the Hospitals in St. George's parish should be exempted from that rule.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, that if Bethlehem Hospital were made to pay rates, it must come on the County for funds to support the paupers it now maintained.
Mr. Maberlythought, on the contrary, that if the institutions were exonerated, the charge it now sustained would fall on poor householders, and would be ruin to them.
Mr. Hughes Hugheswould oppose the Bill, but he recommended that a middle course should be adopted, and the Hospital pay the rates on a reduced scale.
Mr. Briscoeopposed the Bill, because he thought that the rates would then fall too heavily upon the poor inhabitants of the district.
The House divided: For the Second Reading 36; Against it 70.—Majority against the Bill 34.

IMPROVEMENT OF THE GAME LAWS.
On the second reading of the Game Bill being moved,
Mr. Fylercomplained of the cumbrous form in which this Bill was submitted to the House. In his opinion, it would be quite sufficient to make every man a trespasser who came on another man's land with a gun in his hand. With respect to qualifications, he thought the whole system was bad: a man with 100,000 l. in the funds could not shoot, while a captain, because the King had signed his commission, had a right to shoot. He maintained that the whole system was founded in error, and led to crime. Let him not be told that, without the Game-laws, country

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gentlemen would not live in the country: they had now something better to do there than to look after the preservation of pheasants. He was glad that we had got a Government which would revise these and other objectionable laws; and he hoped the Government would take up the subject. If it did not, and if this Bill were got rid of, he would, after the recess bring in a measure to do away with the objectionable points, and render the offence a simple trespass.
Colonel Woodthought, that the hon. Gentleman had contented himself with merely counting the clauses, without reading them; for, if he had done so, he would have found that almost all the provisions he spoke of were introduced. He meant to support the second reading of the Bill. At the same time, he thought that the details were too much loaded. The two great points that were required were the legalizing the sale of game, so that the public should be supplied; and the equalizing the law for the poor and the rich. At present there was one law for an opulent man, and another for those who were not wealthy. He wished also that every owner of land should have the power to give permission to sport over it to whomever he pleased.
Mr. Curteissupported the second reading of the Bill, on the understanding that more alterations would take place in the committee. The fundamental principle that he would lay down was, that it was the first right of every individual to do what he would with the game on his own property, whether that property consisted of one acre or a thousand. He wished the sale of game to be permitted, and he would abolish all manorial rights.
Lord J. Russellthought, that the present Bill was a great improvement on any previous one, though he did not think that it reached that point of simplicity and justice which was necessary. For himself, he had always thought that the system of the Game-laws had been most pernicious to the interests of the country. With respect to qualifications, he thought that this Bill did not go far enough; besides, there was every reason to expect that the law would be evaded on this head; and the point they ought to look to was, to make a law that should so agree with the pervading spirit of the times as not to make people desirous of evading it. He hoped the Bill might be so amended in the
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committee as to make it a great improvement of the present law, and enable the Parliament to say that it had done something to clear out this blot on the country, and something to reconcile the people of England to the landed aristocracy of the country.
Mr. Warburtoncongratulated the House and the country that the time had at length arrived when they had a prospect of getting rid of the Game-laws—laws the most disgraceful and odious that ever existed. He certainly did not think the Bill perfect in its present shape, but he hoped that it might be so modified in the committee as to be made acceptable to the country. He thought the Government could on no account neglect to take the measure into its own hands, or at least give it such support as to ensure its success. The Game-laws filled our gaols with men guilty of no crime worthy of such a punishment; and though he did not wholly approve of the present Bill, he would cheerfully assent to it, on the principle of entering the small end of the wedge, and hereafter driving it home. He knew of no such laws as our Game-laws in any other country, unless, indeed, it was in some of the Islands of the Pacific Ocean. He had read in Mariner's account of the Tonga Islands, that there the rats were preserved as game; and though everybody might eat rats, nobody was allowed to kill them, but somebody descended from their gods or their kings. That was the only country and the only case he knew of, which furnished anything like a parallel to our Game-laws. He was satisfied that the time was at length come when these laws would be abolished; and he hoped the House would now read the Bill a second time, resolved to amend it in the committee.
Lord Althorpagreed in all the observations which had been made by his noble friend, and in those made by the noble Lord who had introduced the Bill; and he could assure the noble Lord, that the Government would be very happy to cooperate with him in making any improvements which might be requisite in the committee, and it would give the Bill every attention. He was happy that the Bill had been brought in; and he could assure the House, that the Government would readily support any measures that could improve the present system. Certainly, that system which filled our gaols with hardy men, with the roost active and

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intelligent of our population, and educated them in vice, associated them with criminals, and then turned them loose on the country, prepared for all kinds of crimes—certainly, such a system could not be too soon altered. He should support the Bill, though he hoped it might be so altered in the committee as to make the measure satisfactory to the House and the country.
Mr. C. Tennantwould be happy to support a measure for abolishing the Game-laws; but he could not support this measure, because it did not go far enough. He wished, indeed, that there should be no amendment of these laws, in order that their enormities might the sooner bring about their total abolition. The Bill did not go far enough, and Members would be disposed to go further if they only remembered that those laws were the remains of a barbarous age, and of an odious and barbarous system of tyranny. It would only be necessary to keep the laws unaltered a little longer to get rid of them altogether. The hon. Member had spoken of this Bill as a boon; he did not so consider it, for he thought the law of trespass was all that was required to protect game. He had not read the Bill, but he knew what it was, and he should oppose the Bill at every stage. He was not known to the House, but he would divide it on this question, in order that the country might see how many Members would commit themselves to the principle of the Bill, and how many would support the total abolition. The hon. Member concluded by moving that the Bill be read a second time that day six months.
Mr. Warburtonexplained, that he was no more friendly, to those laws than the hon. Member, and he did not think that he gave his approbation to them by supporting a Bill to amend them.
Mr. William Duncombeexpressed his astonishment at the speech of the hon. Member who had just sat down. He was astonished that the hon. Gentleman should have taken such an extraordinary method of making himself known to the House, as to oppose a Bill which he acknowledged he had not read. The principle of the Bill was, to render game saleable, which it had never yet been in this country, and that would be a great boon. Everybody agreed that the time was come when an alteration should be made in the Game-Jaws, and nobody supposed that that re-
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form ought to be delayed. If the hon. Member's Amendment were carried, it would at least delay the reform till another year. He would cordially support the Bill.
Mr. John Woodthought the hon. Member who opposed the Bill, and who, he knew, had paid much attention to this subject out of doors, had mistaken its operation, and the effect of rejecting it. The hon. Member was probably not aware that, by rejecting the Bill at that stage, he implied that he was hostile to its principle, or hostile to the improvement of the Game-laws. He recommended that the Bill should be made as perfect as possible in the committee. In his own opinion, the owner of land should be the owner of the game on it; and a man with a single rood of ground should be as well entitled to kill game on it as the owner of many acres. As to tenants, their right to kill game should be settled, like their other rights, by contract. On these principles —principles which he considered just—he would amend the Bill; and if it were not passed this year, many months would not elapse before it would be found as expedient to pass a bill so amended, as the Bill itself would be just in principle.
Sir Robert Batesonhoped that the Bill might be extended to Ireland, as it would confer great benefits on that country.
The Marquis of Chandossaid, that the hon. member for Coventry had not treated him fairly, in describing his Bill as a provocative to crime: he meant it to prevent crime. His own preserves, which had been alluded to, were not kept, as had been insinuated, by an army, but by the good will of the farmers; and he relied on that much more than an armed keeper for the security of his game. As to what had been said by the hon. Member who had not read the Bill, he could assure him that he was not to be deterred by any sneers from proceeding with the Bill, or from proceeding with any measure which would give relief to the labourers, to whom he was as friendly as the hon. Member, or any other hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Fylerexplained, that he said the Game-laws, and not the noble Lord's Bill, were a provocative to crime.
Mr. C. Tennantwithdrew his Amendment. Bill read a second time.

CORN LAWS—SCARCITY.
Mr. John Wood Mr. John Wood, in moving for a number of Return,

815
to show the quantity of bonded corn on hand, and the quantity imported from different countries since the beginning of last year, took the opportunity to condemn, in strong terms, our present system of taking the Averages. It was, he said, the most fallacious possible, and they could, at any time, be altered a few shillings by one or two great speculators. He knew that in some places not one particle of the corn that was consumed for several weeks ever formed part of the averages. He wished, also, to take that opportunity to warn the Government and the country, that we were placed, he believed, in a very critical situation as to the quantity of corn in the country. The stock, he believed, was small, and was fast diminishing. He did not believe that there were above 300,000 quarters in bond, and he dreaded the approach of a famine price. There was no large stock in any part of the Continent, whence we could obtain supplies. One of the arguments, he remembered, of those who supported the Corn-laws was, that the country ought not to depend for a supply of food on foreign countries; but it was impossible that it could grow food enough for all its inhabitants. The policy, therefore, of this country ought to be, to encourage other countries to grow food for our use. What was the consequence, however, of the policy we had pursued? The harvest last season was below the average, and there was now no corn to be got from the Continent. We could get none from the Baltic and none from the opposite coast. We might, perhaps, get a little from the Mediterranean, or a little from America; but he thought the supplies we could obtain were so short; that he would recommend capitalists and persons engaged in this trade to look about them and see whence they could obtain supplies. At present the price of wheat in the month of December was 64 s., and it was the opinion of experienced persons, that by the month of June it would be 100 s. He believed it, and he thought that scarcity would best be prevented by the Government and the country directing their attention to the subject in time, and by such warnings as he thought it his duty to give. The hon. Member concluded by moving for the Returns above-mentioned.
Mr. Curteisshared the hon. Member's opinions as to the Averages, and thought the Return would be useful. He must
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deny the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's statement, however, and believed that there was no ground for the fears he had expressed.
Mr. Ruthvenalso thought, that the crops of last year were not so deplorably bad as the hon. Gentleman stated. He admitted that the averages were fallacious, but he could not agree that the Corn-laws were altogether wrong. It was necessary to give protection to the agriculturists, but he thought that protection might probably be better given by a regular fixed duty than by the present method of taking the averages.
Returns ordered.