Commons Sitting of 2 December 1830

MINUTES.
On the Motion of Mr. S. RICA, a new Writ was ordered for the Borough of Calne, in the room of Sir J. MACDONALD, who, since his election, had been appointed a Commissioner of the Board of Control for the Affairs of India.
The Committee appointed to try the merits of the Queen-borough Election, reported that P. C. H. DURHAM, Esq., and W. HOLMES, Esq., were not duly returned; and that J. CAPEL,, Esq. and THOS. GLADSTONE, Esq., were duly elected.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HUME, the number of persons imprisoned in the Gaol of Glasgow for Debt, from the year 1827 to 1830 inclusive, distinguishing the sums for which they were arrested; also the emoluments of the Clerks of the Peace and Sheriffs Clerks (Scotland): —On the Motion of Mr. JEPHSON, the number of Steam Packets employed in conveying the Mail to Ireland.
Petitions presented. By Mr. EVANS, from the Inhabitants of Anstey, in Leicestershire, praying for Reform of Parliament and Vote by Ballet. By Mr. SCHONSWAR, from Shopkeepers in Kingston-upon-Hull, for the abolition of Stamp Duties on Receipts for small amounts. For the abolition of Slavery, by Mr. A. LEFROY. from Cork, Antrim, and Armagh:—By Mr. C. W. WYNN, from certain Baptists in the County of Carnarvon:— By Sir W. GUISE, from places in Gloucestershire:—By Lord Mon-FHTH, from different places in Yorkshire:—By Mr. HODGSON, from Baptists in Newcastle-upon-Tyne:—By Mr. CURTEIS, from a Parish in Sussex:—By Mr. BRISCOE, from several places in Surrey:—By Mr. J. JOHNSTON, from Linlithgow:—By Mr. S. LUMLEY, from a Parish in Nottingham:—By Mr. CAMPBELL, from Cupar:—By Mr. OWEN, from Pembroke:—By Mr. EVANS, from Ashby, de-la-Zouch:—By Sir M. S. STEWART, from Rothesay:— By Mr. ADEANE, from Cambridge. By Mr. KENNEDY-

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from Ayr, praying that compensation might be given to the Slave-owners, in case Slavery should be abolished. By Lord MORPETH, from Hull, praying for a more speedy and less expensive mode for the recovery of small Debts. By Mr. HODGSON, from Newcastle-on-Tyne, praying for the abolition of the Duty on Coals. By Sir W. ISGILBY, from a Parish in the County of Norfolk, complaining of Distress, and praying for a reduction of Tithes and Taxes. By Sir W. W. WYNN, from a Parish in the County of Denbigh, against the Truck System. For giving the Elective Franchise of Galway to Catholics, by Mr. M'NAMARA, Mr. S. RICE, and Mr. D. BROWNE. By Mr. WRIGHTSON, from Kingston-upon-Hull, for a repeal of all Taxes on Industry. By Mr. CURTEIS, from Billing-hurst, Sussex, praying for a Reform in Parliament, and the employment of the Ballot in Elections.

TREGONY BOROUGH ELECTION.
The Speakeracquainted the House that Charles Harper, who had presented a petition on the 16th of November, complaining of an undue election for the Borough of Tregony, had not entered into the recognizances required by the Act of Parliament.
Mr. D. W. Harveypresented a Petition from Mr. C. Harper, praying that the time for lodging the recognizances might be extended to Thursday next, and praying to be heard in support of the prayer of his petition.
The Motion was then put, that Charles Harper be called to the Bar.
Sir E. B. Sugdenopposed the petition. There was no reason to depart in this case from the rules prescribed by the Act of Parliament.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, the House had power to grant the prayer of the petition, and he thought it ought to be granted.
Mr. Littletonalso thought the Parliament ought to enlarge the time for entering into the recognizances.
Mr. Rosssaw no reason for granting the indulgence, and was opposed to the House acting contrary to its own laws.
Mr. Humesaid, there had been no intention to violate the Act of Parliament; and that the case deserved the favourable consideration of the House.
Mr. Goulburncontended, that the petitioner had not complied with the Act of Parliament, and was not entitled to the indulgence of the House.
The House then agreed that the petitioner should be called to the Bar. On the further question, that the time for entering the recognizances be enlarged till Thursday,
The Attorney Generalthought it extremely inconvenient that the House should have to enter into these cases. He was unwilling to exclude persons from the benefits of an enlargement of their recog-
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nizances; but some attention ought to be paid by the parties to the Acts of Parliament.
Sir R. Peelsaid, there was a manifest inconvenience in laying down rules if they were not to be adhered to. The petitioner had urged that he had never read the Act of Parliament; but if the House extended the time on such a plea, it was giving a manifest advantage to the negligent.
Mr. O'Connellmaintained that the petitioner had not violated the letter of the law. There was nothing in the Act to prevent a petitioner giving in more names than were required, as a prudent precaution in case some of his securities should not be able to pass examination.
Sir R. Peelthought the hon. Member's speech a mere attempt at special pleading. The law was clear and positive, and admitted not of any such interpretation.
Mr. Northmaintained that the Act only mentioned six and four securities as extreme numbers, including the intermediate number.
Sir E. B. Sugdenthought it impossible by such arguments to get rid of the plain words of the Act.
Mr. Campbellsaid, that the petitioner had been guilty of gross negligence, and the petition ought not to be received.
The Speakerrecapitulated the case to the House, and stated, that the petitioner had been duly informed of what was required by the Act.
Lord Palmerstonthought that no favour should be granted unless the petitioner could show that he had taken every precaution to avoid a breach of the law. The dismissal of the petition would not prevent the House trying the validity of the election.
The House divided; Against the Motion 83; For it 23—Majority 60.

LAW OF ENFEOFFMENTS (SCOTLAND).
Sir W. Raerose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the laws regarding the taking of Enfeoffments in heritable property in Scotland. The hon. and learned Baronet described the state of those laws, as they at present existed, as loudly calling for amendment. By the measure which he meant to propose, the parties executing enfeoffments would be protected against the risk and expense to which they were

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at present exposed. The risk was great, because the most trifling technical error, in any one step of the proceedings in cases of enfeoffments, vitiated the whole; and the expense would be at once apparent when he stated, that on an average of ten years, the number of enfeoffments was annually 6,000 which imposed a tax on the land of 80,000 l. sterling. He was anxious that the Bill should be brought in and printed; and two or three months might then be given to enable the country to consider its provisions.
Mr. Kennedywas well pleased that he had withdrawn his limited measure last year, and thus given the hon. and learned Baronet an opportunity of introducing his more comprehensive plan. If any odium were likely to be excited, in any quarter, by the introduction of this measure, he was perfectly ready to take his share of it. He thought the measure would be found extremely beneficial.
Sir M. S. Stewartapproved of the measure, because it tended to simplify the cumbrous machinery of this portion of the law. The country was highly indebted to the exertions of the hon. and learned Baronet, who had recently retired without provision from the laborious situation which he had so ably filled. He wished to know whether any person had been appointed to that office? In his opinion, the hon. and learned Baronet ought to be placed in the first high official situation which became vacant.
Mr. G. Lambconcurred in all the praises which had been bestowed on the hon. and learned Baronet. In answer to the question which had been asked by the hon. Member who had just sat down, he had to state, that a gentleman had been appointed to the office referred to, and the papers connected with that appointment were going through the proper department.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.

TESTS—(IRELAND).
Mr. Northrose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to extend to Protestants of the Established Church in Ireland the provisions of the Irish Statute of the 19th and 20th of George 3rd, cap. 6, permitting Protestant Dissenters to hold office without receiving the sacrament. The Act in question, the benefit of which he wished to extend to Protestants, was originally passed in the reign of Queen Anne, and was subse-
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quently amended in that of George 3rd, to which he had alluded. The object of the first act was to exclude Protestant Dissenters from office, by establishing, as a test for the qualification of office, the necessity of receiving the sacrament of the Lord's Supper according to the forms of the Church of England. The Act of 1793 repealed that test, with respect to Dissenters in Ireland. The Act which passed two Sessions ago, for the relief of Dissenters, from the necessity of taking the sacrament as a qualification for office, took away that necessity from all classes; but the Act did not extend beyond England, it being understood that the Dissenters of Ireland were fully relieved by the Irish Act of 1793. So that, in fact, the Protestants belonging to the Established Church in Ireland were at this moment the only class of subjects of the United Kingdom who were still obliged to take the sacrament as a qualification, and who of course were liable to a penalty for taking office without such qualification. Thus, in the process of legislation, it happened that what was originally intended as a bar to Dissenters only, now remained on the Statutes as a bar to Protestants of the Established Church, whose exclusion was never intended. Under these circumstances, he thought the House would go with him in admitting the necessity of doing away with this as a form useless as a qualification for office. He would therefore, without further comment, move for leave to bring in his Bill.
Sir R. H. Inglisdid not object to the principle of the motion, but he doubted whether further legislation was necessary on a subject already so clearly expressed in the Act of 1793. That, he thought, was so clear as to be understood by every man, woman, and child who could read it, and he was not aware that any doubt had been raised on the subject in any Court of Law.
Mr. Northsaid, the hon. Baronet had not correctly understood him if he supposed no doubt existed. As to Protestant Dissenters the Act was clear enough, but it was not so with respect to Protestants of the Established Church, and those doubts had been alluded to in the 23rd of George 3rd.
Leave given to bring in the Bill.

FREEHOLDERS IN IRELAND.
Mr. Wyserose, pursuant to the notice he had

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given, to move for a return specifying the number of 50 l., 20 l., and 10 l. freeholders and clergymen who voted at the General Elections of this year, for the return of Members to Parliament from counties in Ireland. At the present moment, when we were waiting for the discussion of the most interesting subject which could engage the attention of Parliament,—that of reform,—it was important that every information which could bear on the question should be before the House. By the returns for which he now moved, it would be seen how far the influence of the Crown was exercised on the constituency of that country, by showing how the clergy voted; for in some counties, by the effect of the bill for disfranchising the 40s. freeholders, the clergy now bore a more than ordinary proportion to the persons entitled to vote. In one county, out of 191 votes there were thirty-one clergymen who voted against the popular candidate. The votes of the clergy had this advantage— that they were not subject to registry, and that they might vote at any booth they pleased; thus having the power to turn the scale at that booth. He had no wish to limit the elective franchise in any case; but he did not see why that of clergymen should not be exercised under the same formalities as those which regulated the franchise of other freeholders. He would not go further into the subject at present, as a more fit opportunity would occur hereafter; but he trusted that what he had said would show a fair ground for acceding to his Motion.
Mr. Leadersaid, that he had no objection to the motion of his hon. friend, but he thought it would be useful to extend it, and to show also the number of 40 s. freeholders who voted at the last General Election. The number had been reduced to a comparatively small amount. Not more than about 3,000 had voted; but these, though the poorest, were, he believed, the most honest and valuable portion of the electors. He the more readily concurred in the motion of his hon. friend, as he thought it was important to inquire into the amount of ecclesiastical patronage at elections.
Motion agreed to.
On the Motion of Mr. H. Drummond, the name of Sir George Clerk was added to the Committee of Standing Orders.
On the Motion of Mr. S. Rice, the Consolidated Fund Bill went through a
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Committee, and the report was ordered to be received on Monday.

COLONIAL ACTS' VALIDITY BILL.
Mr. Spring Ricemoved that the Committee on this Bill be postponed to Monday.
Mr. Campbellobserved, that from what fell from him on a former evening on this Bill, it seemed to be understood that he was opposed to its progress. This was far from being the case. He gave the Bill his entire assent as far as it went, and his only objection was, that it did not go far enough. The Bill was to render valid all acts of colonial governors performed within six months after the late demise of the Crown, for without such an Act their acts would be invalid, and many of them would be liable to actions. So far he fully concurred, but he thought the Bill ought to go further, and be made general and prospective,—that it should go, not merely to acts done since the late demise of the Crown, but extend to all future cases of a demise of the Crown. He hoped the day was far distant when such an event would occur, but the inevitable hour must come at some time, and it would be much better to make at the present moment a provision which would be applicable to all such events in future, than to have a new Act necessary as each case occurred; for if we did not make provision for it now, we should have to pass a similar bill at a future period. He would therefore suggest that such a provision should be now made applicable to all future cases of a demise of the Crown.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, his object in postponing the Bill was to give an opportunity to the noble Lord who had charge of the Bill, and who was not now in the House, to consider the very valuable suggestion made by the hon. and learned Gentleman.
Committee postponed.

PENSIONS AND SALARIES. — POSTMASTER-GENERAL OF IRELAND.
Mr. Spring Ricepresented (pursuant to address) an account of the Pensions on the Civil List, and several other papers relating to Salaries of Public Offices.
Mr. Humewished to know to what date those returns were brought down?
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, they were down to last June. There were among the papers some Treasury Minutes relating to the office of Vice-treasurer of Ireland. These,

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however, would not show the whole of the reductions and alterations to be made in that office, as further arrangements had since been made, and some were in progress, which would tend greatly to simplify the manner of keeping the accounts. While he was on his legs, he wished to say a word as to a question which had been put to him by his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, on a former evening, respecting the officer of Postmaster-general of Ireland, and he was the more anxious to do so, as he did not wish that any misconception should arise from what he had said. In answer to the question of his hon. friend, he stated that it was not the intention of Government to fill up the vacant office of Postmaster-general of Ireland. Now, the facts of the case, with which he was not at that time in full possession, were simply these:—soon after the late general election Lord O'Neil, who held the situation of Postmaster-general of Ireland, jointly with Lord Ross, was removed from that office. The salary of the office, which till then had been paid to Lord O'Neil only—Lord Ross having had no salary—was transferred to the latter noble Lord; so that, in effect, no saving of salary was made to the public. Within the last two days, however, the resignation of Lord Ross had been received, so that the situation was wholly vacant, and it was now the determination of Government to get rid of the office altogether, it not being necessary to the transaction of business in that department of the public service.
Mr. Humesaid, he was glad to hear the statement of his hon. friend that the office was to be abolished. It was only that day that he received a letter from Dublin, stating that the office was wholly vacant, but that up to then the salary had been continued to the other noble Lord who had held the situation jointly with Lord O'Neil; and he owned he was surprised at what had fallen from a right hon. Gentleman below him (Mr. Goulburn), who had claimed credit for the late Administration for the intention not to fill up the office. He was glad to find that the credit of the abolition belonged altogether to the new Ministry, and he took it as an earnest of their disposition to practise economy. He was glad to hear what was said by his hon. friend as to the Vice-treasurer of Ireland. His (Mr. Hume's) great object was, to get simplicity in the mode of
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keeping the accounts, as well as a saving to the public in the amount of salary. He hoped that the accounts now laid on the Table would be printed, and after that should be agreed to, he would move that the accounts of the pensions on the Civil List in England, Scotland, and Ireland, should be brought down to the latest period to which they could be made out —to the present—as he was anxious to see what was done by former Administrations, and to begin a new score with the present Ministry. It was well known that he was anxious to get rid of the system of pensions altogether.
Colonel Sibthorpwished to know from the hon. Gentleman (Mr. S. Rice) opposite, whether it was the intention of Government to make a considerable reduction of the salaries of public officers. If it were, he would be ready to give the present Government his most cordial support. He had seen appointments such as that to the Clerk of the Council, and other places, which no man having a due regard for the public interest could approve.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, in answer to the hon. Member's question, he could only say, that it was the intention of Government to make great reductions in every department of the public service. At the same time he would submit to the hon. Member to defer such questions as that he had put till those of his Majesty's confidential advisers who were Members of that House should be in their places, and not apply to an individual holding the humble office that he held.
Mr. Flumewas glad to hear that a general reduction of salaries was intended. He should wish to hear that every office above 500 l. a-year were reduced to nearly one-half. The amount paid in large salaries to public officers was enormous. He did not mean to say that many of those who received them were not most efficient public servants; but he thought that all high salaries ought to be reduced, and some of them greatly. He held in his hand an abstract of a parliamentary paper, No. 23 of the present Session, containing an account of the salaries of civil and military offices, of 1,000 l. a year and upwards, from which, though no returns were yet made of the salaries paid to officers of the House of Lords, or of the Court of Common Pleas, it appeared that the total amount paid in salaries of 1,000 l. a-year and upwards, was

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2,066,574 l. Of this sum there were paid

To Officers of the House of Commons

£19,642

Judicial Officers

466,836

Civil

655,434

Diplomatic and Consular

251,624

Naval and Military

334,327

Colonial

338,711

Total

£2,066,574

This immense revenue was enjoyed by 993 persons, — making an average of 2,081 l. a-year to each. But of these 993 persons 216 received nearly one-half of that sum. For instance, there were 161 with salaries of 2,500 l. and under 5,000 l.; forty-four with 5,000 l., and under 10,000 l.; eleven above 10,000 l. a-year. Taking the whole of these 216 persons, their salaries averaged above 4,400 l. a-year each. There were many of these who enjoyed large salaries,—such as Lord Ellenborough and others—when all their duties were performed by deputy. The account he had referred to did not contain the whole amount paid by the public, for it did not include the expense of collecting, or the sums paid to deputies. In fact, the whole amount paid by the public in this way could not be known, except by examination by a committee,—such a committee as that moved for on a former occasion by the hon. member for Dorsetshire. If he should have any thing to do with the formation of such a committee, he would nominate his hon. friend (Colonel Sib-thorp) near him, as he should be very glad to avail himself of his valuable assistance on the subject. The only way to get rid of exaggerated statements as to expenditure, which some hon. Members complained of, was by such a committee.
The papers ordered to be printed.
On the Motion of Mr. Hume, similar returns to those on the Table were ordered, to the latest period to which they could be made out.

ADULTERATION OF BEER.
Colonel Sibthorpmoved for a return of the number of convictions for the adulteration of Beer from 1827 to the present time. Several most flagrant cases of such adulteration had recently occurred, in one of which the mixture prepared would be more injurious to drink than a bottle of Warren's blacking; and yet some of these publicans were fined only small sums, and still allowed to carry on their nefarious trade. If the loss of the license were in
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such cases to follow the conviction, it would have the effect of checking this practice so injurious to the health of those whose ordinary beverage was beer.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that he did not object to the Motion, but he hoped, as the hon. Member had not given notice of it, he would let it stand as a notice for Monday, by which time he should make inquiry as to the quarter from which the return could be made. A return was ordered the other day, which, on inquiry, he found would occupy three clerks, at the highest salary, for 365 days, to complete.
Mr. Humesaid, that when the reduction of the duty on Beer was proposed, it was said that it would occasion a reduction of the number of Excise Officers, but he understood that no such reduction had yet been made.
Motion deferred till Monday.