Commons Sitting of 18 March 1828

SUPPLY OF WATER TO THE METROPOLIS.
Sir F. Burdettrose to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, what progress had been made by the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the State of the Supply of Water to the Metropolis.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that, upon a former occasion, when the same question had been put to him by the hon. baronet's colleague, he had endeavoured to give a plain and intelligible answer. He had stated, that on his return to the office which he had then the honour to fill, he had found that one of his predecessors, Mr. Sturges Bourne, had appointed a commission to inquire into the supply of water to the metropolis, and that a question had arisen as to the extent of power bestowed on the individuals appointed as commissioners under it. He had been called upon to decide that question, and his answer was, that he should be governed entirely by the view which had been taken of it by the right hon. gentleman who had appointed the commission. Upon inquiry he found that it was the opinion, not only of Mr. Sturges Bourne, but also of the marquis of Lansdowne, who had succeeded to his office, that the powers which had been conferred on the commissioners were sufficiently ample for all the objects contemplated in the commission. It gave them power to examine witnesses upon oath, and to make all such inquiries as they should deem necessary, to show the present state of the supply of water to the metropolis, and to determine its quality, quantity, description, and salubrity. A question had likewise arisen, as to whether the
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commissioners should have power to employ engineers to make surveys and to take levels. And he certainly was of opinion, that parliament had never contemplated any such thing when it agreed to the address for the appointment of the commission. He determined to refer to his right hon. friend, for he felt that it would be inexpedient in him either to curtail or to increase those powers beyond what was originally intended. He had been asked whether the commission was to make an analysis of the water. He had replied, that it would not be sufficient for the commission to make only one analysis of the water, they must make an analysis of it, as taken from different parts of the river, at different periods of the tide and of the year. He had also been asked whether he approved of the gentlemen who had been appointed commissioners; namely, Mr. Telford, the engineer; Dr. Roget, the physician; and Mr. Brande, the chymist; and he had expressed of them that approbation which their eminent acquirements richly deserved. As the commission had, on his return to office, been sitting for five months, he ventured to inquire whether they had made any analysis of the water, and when they would be prepared to make their report. He was told that the analysis of the water would be complete in about six weeks; and that soon afterwards they would make a report which would bring all their proceedings under the consideration of parliament. He trusted it was quite unnecessary for him to say, that he entertained no feeling upon this particular question. If parliament should think it right to have engineers employed to make surveys and to take levels, with a view of discovering from what quarter the best, purest, and most abundant, supply of water could be brought to the metropolis, nothing could be easier than to add the instruction to the address. He should reserve his opinion as to the propriety or impropriety of such a measure. He thought that, if the commissioners should be of opinion that there was not sufficient salubrity in the water of the Thames, there was that opulence, and that spirit of enterprise in the inhabitants of this great metropolis, which would induce them to form a new Water-company in order to secure a better supply of water than that which they had at present; and he frankly owned that he conceived such new company, and not the government, should be

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at the expense of making the requisite surveys, and taking the necessary levels. He was of opinion that it would be quite sufficient for the commission appointed by the Crown to make an analysis of the water, and to report its opinion upon the quality and quantity of the supply. He had laid upon the table of the House, the other day, a copy of the commission, and also a copy of all the correspondence to which it had given rise and he believed that, in a few days; it would be printed, and in the hands of every member. He, therefore, would take the liberty of suggesting, that it would be advisable to proceed no further in the discussion until they had the report of the commissioners. He could not, however, conclude, without expressing a hope that the House would pause before it consented to give greater powers to the commission than those it had at present.
Mr. S. Bournerose merely to confirm the statement of his right hon. friend. However, as he was upon his legs, he could not help expressing his surprise that the report of this commission had not been presented long ago. He thought that all that the commission had to ascertain was, whether the quality of the water now supplied to the metropolis was good, and whether its quantity was sufficient. He imagined that the labours, which they were appointed to discharge, might be discharged in so short a period that he had nearly limited in the commission the time within which they were to make their report; and he had only been prevented from so doing by a petition having been presented from Southwark, praying that the labours of the commissioners might be extended, to inquire into the supply of water on their side of the Thames. He had appointed on the commission one of the most able physicians, and one of the most eminent chymists, of the present day, in order that the public might have the benefit of the ablest opinions on the salubrity of the water; and he had added an excellent engineer to their number, in order that they might avoid the expense of employing individuals to take levels for them, and might have in their own body a gentleman who could give them the most satisfactory information upon all such matters.
Sir F. Burdettsaid, that if the commission was merely appointed to analyze the water which was supplied to the metropolis, it was wasting its time in a very idle
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and unsatisfactory manner. If the commission were not to be allowed to look at the means of remedying the present insalubrious and inefficient supply, it was worse than useless to appoint them. If they had nothing to do but to analyze the water—which, by the by, had been repeatedly done by the first chymists in London, why had they been appointed? The physician who was appointed a member of the commission, might be the most learned of physicians, the chymist the most able of chymists, and the engineer the most expert and ingenious of engineers; but we did not want a learned physician, to tell us that the water was insalubrious, nor an able chymist to analyze its contents, nor an ingenious engineer to make surveys and take levels, unless they were also to seek for a remedy to the evils which they discovered. He was of opinion, that it would be of great advantage to the public to have any plan, which might be proposed for the better supply of water to the metropolis, executed under the authority of government; and he thought that it would be better for government to fix upon some plan for such an object, than to leave it to the whim and caprice of individual speculators. He considered the present to be one of the most important matters that had ever fallen within the remedial powers of any government. The main object to which the government ought to look in any measures which it might hereafter think proper to adopt was, to obtain water from pure sources, and not from such sources as required every thing which came from them to be filtrated previously to its being reduced to a condition fit for use. There was another part of this subject which likewise deserved the attention of parliament—and that was, the cost of the supply of water to the metropolis. In this article, all the principles of free trade were violated and set at nought. The different water companies had established a complete monopoly. ["Order" from the Speaker.] He begged pardon—he was aware that on the present occasion he had no right to enter upon such a discussion; but it was almost impossible to leave off. Here the conversation dropped.

CORPORATION AND TEST ACTS REPEAL BILL.
The order of the day was read for going into a committee on this bill. On the question, that the Speaker do now leave the chair,
Mr. Sturges Bournesaid, that, from the unavoidable absence of his honourable friend, the member for Devonshire (sir T. D. Acland) it had fallen to his lot to undertake the task of laying before the House a proposition which, he trusted, would have the effect of uniting the suffrages of both parties on this great question, and which, while it extended the liberties of the Dissenters would amply provide for the security of the church. He regretted the absence of his hon. friend, because it had deprived the proposition of the influence which it would have received from his talents and weight of character. On the former discussion of this question, there had been so much ability displayed, and, he was happy to add, so much temper and moderation shewn by the noble lord and his supporters, as materially to add to the effect with which they pressed their considerations upon the House. They had already determined, by no equivocal majority, that the Sacramental tests now in existence ought to be abolished. He knew that there were among the members who composed that majority, very different feelings on that subject. Some considered every sort of test as improper; others thought it a desirable object to have some tests, but agreed, that Sacramental Tests were at least inefficient, while all concurred in opinion, that it was bad to continue a system which led to a revolting profanation of a most solemn rite of religion. That such were the opinions of those who formed that majority he had no doubt. He believed he might say with the same degree of confidence, that his right hon. friend, and those who supported him, would not think he was doing them an injustice when he stated, that he did not suppose they were opposed to the abolition of the Tests now in existence if others could be substituted, that would afford a proper degree of security to the church. He had little doubt that they would be thankful to him or to any one else, who should propose a step by which they might be exempted from a course that would seem to lay them open to such an imputation. These circumstances had induced him to hope, that some proposition might be made which would put an end to all objections, and render the abolition of the existing Tests in every way feasible. To those who had resisted the motion of the noble lord on a former evening, he would beg leave to say a few words, in or-
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der to remind them of the effects which these statutes had already produced. Persons who did not belong to the church of England were obliged to qualify themselves by taking the sacrament to hold certain offices in the State. That enactment soon led to a conference between the two Houses on the subject of Occasional Conformity, which, after some discussion, ended in a quarrel between them. Soon afterwards a bill was brought in to repeal the act for Occasional Conformity; but that bill was found to be so severe in its enactments, that after the lapse of a short time, another bill was brought in to suspend it, a bill which had been annually passed ever since. That such a bill should ever have been deemed a security to the Established Church was a point which, he fairly owned, astonished him. It might keep out of office honest and conscientious men, but it never could operate as a restraint upon men of a contrary disposition. He had hoped that the enactments of the Corporation and Test acts had become a dead letter; and therefore it was, that he had heard with much sorrow that there was a particular church in London to which individuals went, on stated occasions, to take the sacrament as a qualification for office. He was convinced that the church could receive no benefit from such a profanation of one of its most solemn and awful rites; and therefore he thought that there could be no particular desire on the part of those gentlemen who formed the minority of the former night to retain the present tests, if any other could be substituted in their stead. With respect to the gentlemen who sought the entire repeal of the present restrictive statutes, he was afraid that it might be more difficult to reconcile them to the proposition which he intended to submit to the House; for they might be of opinion, that all tests were unnecessary and improper, and be inclined not to in-cumber the boon which they sought to confer upon the Dissenters by any limitation whatever. He could understand the feeling on which they were prepared to act; but he trusted that if it were possible to frame a declaration which would give satisfaction to the members of the Established Church, and which was at the same time free from all the objections which the Dissenters naturally entertained against the present tests, they would not risk the loss of a great advantage for the

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accidental attainment of an advantage still greater. He did not intend to propose the taking of an oath as a qualification for office, he thought that a declaration, solemnly subscribed, would be equally effective and binding. He should therefore propose that a declaration should be made to the following effect, by all candidates for office at the time, when by the existing law, the oaths of allegiance and supremacy were to be taken;—" I, A. B., do solemnly and sincerely declare, that I will not use any powers with which I may be invested by this office, to subvert, or to endeavour to subvert, the principles of the church of England, Scotland, or Ireland, as by law established." He had endeavoured in this declaration to avoid the use of any terms that were vague and indefinite; and he should be well satisfied to see it made a part of the noble lord's present bill. He had now stated the sum and substance of all that he had to propose. The declaration would apply equally to the privileges of the established church of Scotland, and to those of the established church of England and Ireland, and must be taken by all the king's subjects alike before their admission into any public office.—Before he concluded, he would say a few words respecting the conduct of the clergy of the establishment. It could not have failed to strike the attention of every member of that House, that the clergy had not thought fit, except in one or two instances, to trouble the House with petitions on this subject. He inferred from that circumstance, that they reposed with confidence in the attachment of parliament to the establishment of which they were the pious and active ministers. Anxious as he was for the security of the church of England, he would confess that he thought that they had done more by their silence to advance its interest and welfare, than if they had covered the table of the House with loads of petitions against the repeal of these statutes. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving "That it be an instruction to the committee on this bill, that they have power to provide for the taking and subscribing a declaration by all persons who would, under the existing laws, be required to take the Sacramental Test."
Lord Eastnor, in seconding the motion, said, he could assure the noble lord, that though he had formed one of the minority
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on the former evening, he was not at all insensible to the inconveniences of the present laws respecting the Dissenters. It was impossible to avoid seeing that they were full of inconsistencies, when a bill of indemnity was annually passed to suspend the severity of their enactments. It was impossible also to avoid seeing that the test which required individuals to use the most sacred ceremony of the church as a qualification for office, was a profanation of religion which ought to be continued no longer. He would candidly confess that he had voted on the former night against the motion of the noble lord, because he was not prepared to support the abolition of the existing tests, without having some declaration substituted for them, acknowledging that the church of England was an integral part of the constitution, and pledging the person taking office to consider it in that light. He was now of opinion that some declaration, such as his right hon. friend had proposed, might be framed so as to satisfy both sides of the House. He was aware it might be said, that if he was impressed by such sentiments he ought not to have voted as he had done on the former night, because it would have been easy for him, when the noble lord's bill came to its present stage, to have proposed that a similar instruction to the present be given to the committee. He must confess, that if the noble lord in his speech—which he owned to be a most able and conciliatory speech—had propounded any intention of substituting a declaration instead of an oath as a test, he should have given his support to the noble lord's motion. He had, however, supposed that such was not the intention of the noble lord, and had voted accordingly. He acknowledged it to be his opinion, that if the noble lord had not carried his motion on the former night, the subject would have been taken up by government; and if it had been so taken up, the repeal of these statutes would have been more satisfactory both to the government and to the Dissenters. He was aware of the utter impossibility of satisfying all parties; but he thought the instruction went a great way towards the attainment of that object, since it secured the interests of the church, while it did not offend the religious scruples of the Dissenters. He hoped it would be carried; and if so, he should no further oppose the progress of the bill.
Lord John Russellsaid, that he was ready thus early to offer himself to the notice of the House upon the new question submitted for their consideration. The noble lord who spoke last was right in saying that neither he nor any of his friends had either proposed or prepared any test as a substitute for those which they were anxious to revoke. On the contrary, they had asked for the total repeal of the existing law, on general principles of justice and policy, without having it in their contemplation to propose any substitute in lieu of the oath required by the Established Church. Notwithstanding what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, he could not help thinking that unqualified repeal was what was meant by the great majority who had pronounced their opinions upon this subject on a former night. There had been, undoubtedly, an opinion expressed by an hon. friend of his, that it would be better to have a bill of suspension than one of repeal; but he could not bring himself to believe that many had concurred in a proposition of that nature. Before, however, he went further in his allusions to the general subject, or entered upon the specific proposition of the right hon. gentleman, he hoped the House would allow him to congratulate them upon the different condition in which this great question was now placed, from that it had occupied on any former occasion. They had no longer to inquire into the essential differences which formed the barrier between the established and dissenting churches, or whether or no Dissenters were worthy of holding places of trust and office. They had no longer to combat any of those theological distinctions or subtleties, which had been interposed in the form of striking difficulties, and most improperly, as he had always thought, where the question really was the adjustment of civil duties. They had no longer to grapple with that ancient principle, which provided, that no man was worthy to serve the state, of which he was a social member, unless he belonged to the creed of the dominating church. It was a source, he thought, of real satisfaction, that the question now came before them stripped of these incumbrances. It was put fairly and plainly in a different form by the right hon. gentleman, who had, in his amendment, proposed no assertion of the obsolete principle of inherent re-
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ligious disability, but on the contrary, a Declaration merely affecting the civil conditions upon which the tenure of office was to be held by those who were ready to admit the paramount obligations of the constitution. Though he thus rejoiced that the question was not what it had been, and was at length put upon fresh ground of argument, yet he could not concur in the conclusion, that any fresh declaration was necessary. He had many reasons to prevent his adopting such a conclusion. The first reason was that there being no pretensions for danger there could be no necessity for demanding security. Whether the Test and Corporation acts were originally just and proper—whether their provisions were adequate to the presumed necessity for their enactment—it was now rather too late to inquire. But they had at least this plausibility, or supposed advantage, in the principle of their construction—that they were really enacted to meet an apparent overwhelming danger. At the time to which he referred, there did exist a set of men who had sought to destroy the constitution, as in church and state established. At present, what pretence was there that any declaration or religious test was called for, to protect either church or state from any particular danger? Had any complaint been made against the principles or practice of any of the Dissenters who had obtained office? And it must not be forgotten that Protestant Dissenters, if they really meant hostility to the Established Church, had had the power of fomenting their machinations during the greater part of the last half century, in which time they had been practically admitted into office. Had they, during that lapse of years, sought the subversion of the Established Church? Had they attempted to oppose the dominion of the law? Had they endeavoured to introduce disorder or civil contention into the kingdom? The answer of history was, No. If, then, they had not, he called upon the House not to sanction an imputation where no charge either had or could be made—not to express a distrust where no confidence had been violated. His next reason against the proposed amendment was, that he saw no cause why the Dissenters should make any declaration respecting the Established Church, which they were not called upon to make towards any other establishment of the

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state, or against any other doctrine that was supposed to be subversive of the constitution. For instance, there were those abroad who thought any established religion unnecessary—there were those abroad who advocated annual parliaments, and universal suffrage; yet nobody dreamt of providing countervailing declarations against such constitutional innovations. There were likewise established institutions which were interwoven with the spirit of British liberty; the trial by jury for example, the independence of the judges; yet in no instance had a declaration been called for, or deemed necessary for their preservation—And why? Because it was more politic for the state to presume, that all its subjects felt a common interest in the due maintenance of what was essentially useful for the whole, than to fritter away their allegiance into privileged or excluded classes. Better, far better, was it, to leave the opinion td prevail, that all men were bound equally to obey the laws upon the same obligation of common compact, than to take for one class, as against the rest, a form of words as a security, which elsewhere was deemed unnecessary. He would say, moreover, that this sort of verbal security was far from being the best a government could obtain. The best security for the impartiality of the trial by jury, for the independence of the judge, was the perfect confidence which the state reposed in the one and the other, and the deep implied obligation of the sacredness of the trust. In fact, these tests, when carried as they were to extreme points, excited jealousy instead of enforcing salutary obligation, and actually prevented the growth of opinion from correcting the current of antiquated prejudices. The page of history demonstrated, that exactly in proportion to the relaxation of the persecution of sects, was the leaning of the emancipated thinkers to whatever creed belonged to the influential portion of society, to which they were newly deemed eligible. Upon reference to the debates on the Occasional Conformity bill, it would be found, as bishop Burnet said, that the passing of the Toleration act had almost immediately diminished the number of the Dissenters one fourth. The reason was obvious, the bar of separation had been taken away from them, and with it that party spirit which was their main support. History furnished another striking reason of the anomalous tendency of these re-
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strictive laws, and how entirely they defeated their own expressed purposes. Never had religious wars been carried on with more fierceness than were the religious wars of France. The Huguenots at one time undoubtedly comprised the largest number of men of rank and station in France. The massacre, the persecution, and assassination, of their members by no means diminished the accession to their numbers, nor the dangers apprehended from the Huguenot Association. But when Henry 4th came forward with the edict of Nantes, which threw open power to all classes, the spell of Huguenot power was dissolved, and in less than a century, though many Protestants still remained in France, there were hardly any among them of any rank or station, the principal families of the Huguenots having merged into those of the predominant religion. So that when Louis 14th revoked the edict of Nantes, it was notorious that the great majority who had fled from that act of intolerant power were not of the station and rank in society of those who had figured as Huguenots during the reign of Henry 4th. He would say, then, that the best security of any state would be found, not in the imposition, but in the absence of these jealous and distrustful tests. Once show a confidence, a fair and honest belief in the integrity of the Dissenters, and there would be every thing to hope from their cordiality, and nothing to fear from provoked and wounded feelings. It must surely be obvious, that to ask for these tests and declarations, was to inspire distrust. Why was it, then, that persons called for their perpetuity? Was it, that in the performance of an act of tardy justice, the pride of the Established Church required a qualification or salvo, as if it were not ready to make a fair concession of its own free will, and in that full spirit of conciliation which ought to be maintained in coming to such an adjustment? He had likewise another objection to the proposed Declaration. Although the right hon. gentleman's words might be unexceptionable, yet declarations of this kind were always liable to various interpretations, according to the sense in which they were construed by those in whose behalf they were said to be taken, or by whom they were actually adopted. There was always, then, a dangerous latitude, however conscientiously suggested, in these different interpretations of the respective communities. Surety

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such a danger ought to be avoided. Reference had been made, on a former night, to the words proposed by Mr. Burke in the place of the present tests. The subscriber was not only to declare that he would never subvert or destroy the Established Church, but he was to carry the supposed security further; for he was not to assist or employ any person or persons, or give any vote for any person seeking corporate office or parliamentary duty, on account of their attachment to any religious opinions not being those of the Established Church. Surely that was rendering the fulfilment of the obligation practically impossible; for no man, were he a Dissenter, could doubt, that if two candidates offered themselves at the same time for his vote, being alike eligible, his bias must naturally turn towards the one who partook most of his own peculiar tenets. These were generally the objections which he entertained to the course proposed to be taken to qualify or alter the present bill. But, in stating them, he was ready at the same time to declare, that his opposition was not unconquerable [hear]. He repeated, that his objections were upon principle, but he was still ready, and indeed bound, to listen to the general opinion of the House. Placed as he was in such a question as this, involving delicate feelings and momentous interests, he would not take upon himself, for the maintenance of his own opinion, to close the door of conciliation and peace [cheers]. If there were a fair and open chance of the admission of Dissenters to the enjoyment of their just rights and privileges, with a reasonable declaration, which would satisfy the scruples of the influential organs of the Established Church, without violating the feelings of the other parties, he confessed he should be ready to listen to such a proposition, with an earnest hope and a desire to afford his best endeavours to make the Declaration mutually palatable and satisfactory. But because of his hostility to the principle of any such oath or declaration, he must be excused at that moment from either expressing his assent to or dissent from, the specific proposition, and would, for the present, remain to hear what should appear to be the general opinion of the House upon the subject; remembering that it was a discussion involving the great principle of religious liberty, and embracing considerations as important as could be submitted to an enlightened assembly.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that when this question was last under the consideration of the House, he had asked the noble lord, with the most perfect sincerity on his part, as well as for those who thought with him on this subject, for a short delay, to obviate, if possible, his final resistance to some general and fair arrangement. He had, in fact, merely asked the noble lord to give those who had" at first opposed him a reasonable opportunity of maturely deliberating on the course which it was most important they should pursue to attain a satisfactory adjustment, an opportunity which, even under ordinary circumstances, he could have hardly thought would have been refused. That request he had made with an earnest determination to apply his mind for the fair purpose for which he had asked it; namely, to consider what arrangement could then be made to settle this important question. He was induced to make the request, because he found that a considerable majority of the House of Commons had, upon fair and full debate, pronounced their opinion, that an alteration in the existing law was desirable. He repeated, that this delay he had asked with the sincerest disposition to apply his mind to the consideration of what way any arrangement could be effected with the general consent of those whose consent was indispensable for the success of the measure, and with the intention also of conciliating the feelings of the Dissenters themselves, and the other great party in the country who felt themselves concerned in the result. He wished, in fact, to see how far he could reconcile the sincere adherents of the Church of England, who must feel a deep interest in any change of this nature, to the change which the Dissenters were, under favourable auspices, desirous of accomplishing. The delay he had asked for this purpose had, however, been refused him; and refused, too, with a degree of injustice and indiscretion which he could hardly, under such circumstances, have expected. It was said that his motives were not honest, and that he wanted to get rid of the question by an artifice [cries of "No" and of "Hear"]. Most assuredly such motives had been imputed to him on the occasion to which he alluded, but he begged now to assure the noble lord, that whatever injustice had been personally inflicted upon him, and whatever motives had been unfairly imputed to him, it was impossible that any thing which had passed could seriously affect

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his view of a matter of such immense importance, or prevent his attempting, as far as was in his power, to promote a satisfactory arrangement, if it were attainable, and induce a continuance of that harmony which had so long subsisted between these great parties. He was glad, however, that the interruption had taken place; for it enabled him, in the time which had elapsed since the first discussion, to consider and weigh the various opinions that had been pronounced, in the shape of alternatives, or substitutes for the present law. He would enumerate what he understood to be the several arrangements that had been submitted to the choice of the House. In the first place, there were those who were ready to adhere to the existing provisions of the law, and who defended them because they were impressed with a belief that they did not entail upon the Dissenters any practical grievance. He, as well as those who had entertained that opinion, did not deny the objection, that a difficulty was imposed upon those who were called upon to take the Sacramental Test as a qualification for civil office, but they thought that the Annual Indemnity bill relaxed the painful necessity of enforcing the test as an indispensable qualification. But, as he had before said, he saw nothing more unwise than to interrupt the existing harmony between such sects; and he was free to confess, that after the late decision of the House, so deliberately formed, he was one of those who thought it useless to resist, in limine, the conclusion that the existing law was no longer applicable to the present State of society, and that it ought to undergo a material alteration. Viewing what had passed in this way, he could no longer think of pressing his own opinion, in the vain hope of altering what undoubtedly appeared to be the fixed opinion of the House. The alternative, therefore, of adhering to the present law, he was prepared at once to dismiss from his mind. The sense of the House had been so fairly and decidedly taken against it, that he admitted the law must undergo an alteration. In the course of the discussion the hon. baronet, the member for Devon, had thrown out another proposition, which seemed, at the time, to have received considerable countenance; namely, that there should be substituted in lieu of the Annual Indemnity bill, an annual suspension of the law requiring the
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Sacramental Test. He had pressed this himself for the consideration of the House, at the moment, when he had been afterwards taunted with improper motives and artifice. He rejoiced now, that he had been so interrupted, because he was thereby enabled to come to the present debate uncommitted and unfettered by any previous opinion. He therefore now came to the exercise of his judgment as the case really stood for consideration. The effect of this deliberation upon his part was, to convince him, that he ought to change his opinion respecting the hon. baronet's proposition, which he now thought would, in its operation, prove as inconvenient as the Annual Indemnity bill. He dismissed it therefore from his mind, because it would not remove the objections entertained by conscientious men, Dissenters, as well as of the Church of England, that the law even with such an alteration, while it mitigated the penalties, was still held over their heads as a jealous distrust. It was, also, liable to the further objection, that the suspicion so implied was a tacit recognition of the principle, that the Sacramental Test was a necessary qualification for holding office.—The third alternative held out was, not that a suspension should be enacted, but that a given time should be prospectively named, say five years for the abrogation of the present law. He confessed he could not see the value of that proposition; for it was plainly open to this objection, that while the Church of England, would, in the interval, gain nothing in conciliation and consequent security, they would be clinging pro tanto to a useles annual tenure of disqualifications, still upholding jealousy and distrust, for a short term of years, without obtaining any valid security, and with the certainty of an ungracious termination of these restrictions. Indeed, were the question reduced to this alternative, either repeal this law at once, or abrogate it at the termination of five years, he would not hesitate to say, let the repeal be forthwith, and let the Church of England have the grace of so prompt a concession, and the Dissenters the full benefit of it.—Having thus disposed of three of the causes pointed out, two more only remained for him to allude to. One was that of the noble lord, which asked for a simple and unqualified repeal; and the other that of his right hon. friend (Mr. S. Bourne), which would accompany the repeal by a declaration, in the place of the

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security enjoined by the Sacramental Test. After the best consideration he could give these several propositions, he thought the safer course, and that most likely to preserve harmony between all parties, would be the adoption of something like the last recommendation. Whatever views were taken of the abstract principle, the wisest and best course would, he was convinced, be to come to such a final arrangement, as while it should not affect the fair and conscientious scruples of the Dissenters, would give a reasonable proof to the Church of England, that in the repeal of these long-established tests, which were considered as a much-valued security, the legislature thought fit to require, that a recorded opinion should be given, in the form of a Declaration, for the security of the predominancy of the Established Church. With this view he thought it only fair, that the committee should be instructed to introduce a declaration to the effect he had alluded to, to be taken as a substitute for the Sacramental Test, by the parties who were now liable to take it. If the House recognised that principle, he was prepared with a form of Declaration, which he trusted would be received with general assent. They had already sufficiently discussed whether it should be an oath, or merely a declaration. To propose an oath would be perhaps to arouse again the disstrust of the Dissenters, and subject them to an inconvenience which he thought could not follow the imposition of a declaration; and particularly when they looked at such an affirmation as interwoven with the principle of the constitution. The noble lord had said, that there ought to be no declaration which required any renunciation of religious feeling—so said he. The noble lord had said, that there ought to be no declaration which required the expression of any religious feeling—so said he Indeed, upon the whole view of the case, he preferred a solemn affirmation to an oath, because it was less calculated to arouse the jealousy of one party, and was equally operative as a security to the other. He should be ready to discuss the terms of the Declaration which he had himself prepared when in committee. It entered more into detail than that of his right hon. friend. He agreed with his right hon. friend, in thinking that, they had a right to expect the introduction of some declaration into the bill. If a modification be to be made of
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the laws affecting the Dissenters, such modification should be coupled with some measure of security for the established religion. The one which he now proposed exactly corresponded with that in the preamble of the bill brought forward by Mr. Grattan, and which was afterwards introduced by Mr. Plunkett. It recites that,—" Whereas the Protestant Episcopal Church of England and Ireland, and the doctrine, discipline, and government, thereof, and likewise the Protestant Church of Scotland, and the doctrine, discipline, and government, thereof, are established permanently and inviolably." The declaration which then follows is similar to that which he (Mr. Peel) would propose as a substitute for the Sacramental Test. After adopting the preamble to the bill of Mr. Grattan, he proposed to introduce a declaration to the following effect: "And be it enacted, that all persons who shall hereafter be elected, or chosen to fill the office of mayor, alderman, or magistrate, or to fill any office of emolument and trust in any city or town corporate in England or Wales, shall, previous to his admission, make and subscribe the following Declaration:—'I, A. B., do solemnly declare, that I will never exert any power nor any influence which I may possess by virtue of my office, to injure or subvert the Protestant church, by law established in these realms, or to disturb it in the possession of those rights and privileges to which it is by law entitled." That was the whole of the Declaration which he would propose to introduce. As he had begun to read the provision which he was desirous to see amalgamated with the bill, he might as well proceed through the entire of it. It went on to provide as follows:—"And be it enacted, that the said Declaration shall be made and subscribed in the presence of the persons who by the present charters and usages of cities and towns corporate administer the oath to Dissenters on entering into office there; and that in counties corporate such Declaration shall be made and subscribed in the presence of two justices of the peace;—and be it further enacted, that where any person shall omit, on being chosen or nominated to said office, to subscribe such Declaration, such election and nomination, and all the acts of such officer, are hereby declared null and void." He did not deem it necessary to attach any penalty to the omis-

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sion, further than rendering the election and the subsequent acts void. And here he had to encounter a difficulty respecting the officer appointed by the Crown. The difficulty was, to point out the particular offices under the Crown in which this Declaration should be taken. If every subordinate officer in the employment of the Crown, who was at present liable to be called upon to take the Sacramental Test, should be required to subscribe this Declaration, the provision would only throw ridicule upon the whole proceeding [hear]. To point out, then, the officers who should make the Declaration, and the officers who should be excepted, was the difficulty which he had to overcome. That difficulty, he imagined, might be obviated by some such regulation as this—"Be it enacted that it may be lawful for his majesty to require of all persons who shall be appointed to civil offices of trust, or who shall hold commissions under his majesty's government, and by whom, according to the present law, the Sacramental Test is ordered to be taken" [this, it would be seen, did not affect the Presbyterian Dissenters of Ireland, or the members of the church of Scotland], "to make and subscribe the Declaration above-mentioned, preceding the admission of such persons to offices of civil trust, under such regulations, respecting the time and manner of subscribing such Declaration, as his majesty may be pleased to appoint." That provision on this subject, the House would see, would enable the Crown to point out the offices in which such Declaration would be considered necessary.—Whatever part he might have taken in the discussion of this subject on a preceding night—however he might have then resisted the proposition of the noble lord—now, after what had taken place, he did not yield to the noble lord in his anxiety to see this question settled in the course of the present session, satisfactorily, and for ever. He entertained a hope that the provision which he had proposed, and which appeared to him so perfectly reasonable, would not be rejected by the noble lord or by any of the persons who advocated the claims of the Dissenters. It was impossible for him unequivocally to pledge other persons; but, if this provision should be adopted, he entertained the confident expectation, that the present session would not expire without an arrangement of a satisfactory and permanent nature being effected, with regard to the
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laws affecting the Dissenters. On each side of this, as of every other question, they could only arrive at a satisfactory arrangement by mutual concession. Let it be recollected that the laws which they were desirous to repeal had been mitigated, in a great degree, by the Annual Indemnity bill. The principle of those laws, as they stand, recognizes conformity to the Church of England as the only qualification for admission to corporate and civil offices. He and those who thought with him were prepared to give up that principle,—they were prepared to declare that, without any reference to religious opinions, Protestant Dissenters shall be eligible to the above offices, provided they give security, by subscribing the Declaration which he had proposed, for the maintenance of the rights and privileges of the Established Church. If he understood the noble lord rightly on the first night of this discussion, the noble lord had spoken of the injustice inflicted on the Dissenters by the existing laws. The existence of that injustice pleaded strongly in favour of the adoption of the provision now proposed by him. If the Dissenters were sufferers under the present laws as they stood, that was a powerful reason why the advantages intended by the bill should not be rejected by them, because they were called upon to give, for the concessions thus afforded to them, a security similar to that which the principle of the existing law gave to the Church of England. The Church of England, in his opinion, had a right to demand from the Dissenters a satisfactory declaration, that none of the offices or powers of which they might become possessed should, under any circumstances, be used to injure the establishment, or to disturb it in the possession of its just privileges. The noble lord had stated his objections to any provision beyond that of simple repeal, and he had founded them principally upon the opinion which he entertained of the permanence of the Church Establishment, and which induced him to consider it unnecessary to connect any security with the measure of simple repeal. He would not now enter into the discussion, but he could not avoid expressing his opinion that the noble lord had failed to prove the truth of his position. In arguing the question, the noble lord was not warranted in appealing to America and to other countries, where there exist no established churches. It might be very true that no tests or securi-

1197
ties were required for the maintenance of established churches in such countries; but, according to the experience of this country for centuries, it was well known that religious feelings entered into secular affairs, and influenced the conduct of men. The experience of this country had shown that the Established Church had been always recognized as an essential portion of the constitution of the country, and strong measures had therefore been adopted to maintain unimpaired its rights and privileges. He would in that House take it for granted that the Established Church was an essential part of the constitution of the country. "Non meus hic sermo." In the bills which had been advocated by hon. gentlemen opposite, for the relief of the Roman Catholics, such an acknowledgment was made with a view to procure the assent of all parties. It was expressly made in the bill of the late Mr. Grattan. That bill set out by stating, that the removal of the disqualifications under which the Roman Catholics laboured would tend to promote the interest of the Established Church, and to strengthen our free constitution, of which that Church was an "essential part." He was sure that, upon that point there was no difference of opinion in that House. Maintaining, then, that the Established Church formed an essential part of the constitution, he conceived that the House should not agree to the measure under discussion, until they had maturely weighed the amount of security to which that Church was unquestionably entitled. He was glad to see that, during the discussion, full justice had been done to the temperate course adopted by the Church of England respecting this question. That Church had shown that it confided in the wisdom and justice of parliament, as to the measures of security which ought to be adopted for the preservation of its privileges and immunities. It was remarked by the noble lord, and by other hon. members, on the first night of this discussion, that as the Dissenters had for thirty-seven years remained tranquil, without presenting a petition for the recovery of their rights, their application on the present occasion was entitled to the particular consideration of the House. If that silence and acquiescence on their part justly entitled them to that consideration, he would say that the course pursued by the Church of England gave them also peculiar
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claims to the consideration and attention of parliament. Upon that point he trusted there would be but one feeling. They were about to repeal laws which had been long considered as the bulwarks of the Church of England, and it was impossible to deny that a strong opinion existed throughout the country favourable to the maintenance of those laws. They were about to give the Dissenters admission to office, and he hoped the measure would be carried, not by a majority, for it would be more satisfactory that their votes should be unanimous on this occasion. But if it should be necessary to have the sense of the House declared, he trusted there would be an overpowering majority against the provision of simple repeal, and in support of the bill accompanied with the Declaration which he had proposed. If the bill should be so altered, he entertained the most confident expectation of its ultimate success, and that before the termination of the session there would be a permanent settlement of the question. Whatever part he might have taken on former occasions, he could assure the noble lord and the House, that it was his anxious wish to see that desirable arrangement satisfactorily effected.
Lord Sandonsaid, he was one of a large majority who had voted the other evening for the unconditional repeal of these Tests; but if the measure could not be carried without some condition, he would assent to the proposition of the right hon. gentleman rather than endanger the final success of the bill.
Mr. Fergussonsaid, that no reflections had been cast on the Church of England; on the contrary, every one had admitted that the conduct of the laity, clergy, and prelates, of that Church had been, on this occasion, signally liberal. He was ready to adopt the Declaration proposed, and more if it were required; but he must first be satisfied that it was necessary to the security of the Church of England. What the House had now to decide was, whether any instruction should be given to the committee to impose any such declaration as the right hon. gentleman had moved. Now, he would ask any hon. member whether the security of the Church of England was not greater at that moment than at any antecedent period since these acts had been passed? The Church had received all the safeguards it could possess, by the solemn national compacts

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made at the Unions with Scotland and Ireland. His objection to the proposed Declaration was, that it was not meant to apply to any class but the Dissenters. Why should the members of the Church of England require this security? The members of the Church of Scotland required no test for the support of their establishment. With respect to the Roman Catholics, whose exclusion from office was the great object of the Test act, they would be effectually excluded after this bill was passed, as the great barrier would still remain against them—that of the Oath of Supremacy. There were none but the Dissenters to whom this Declaration could apply. It would be manifestly, on the part of parliament and the Church of England, a distrust of that body which ought not to exist. If any declaration was required, it should be of a more moderate character than either of those proposed. Neither that House nor the House of Peers required, in defence of its rights and privileges, any such security. Why, then, should it be necessary for the Church? He did not believe that the Church of England required any such security; and he objected to it because it would, in effect, be a stigma cast on the whole body of Dissenters. He should be sorry to separate himself from the noble lord, whose bill was a great event in the history of religious freedom, even if the Declaration should constitute a part of it. The thanks of the Dissenters throughout the country were due for the ability with which the noble lord had conducted their case. For his own part, if he thought they would gain admission to office by either of the declarations proposed, he would not object to their being incorporated in the bill, however he might dislike them in principle.
Mr. Wynnsaid, that when he had voted in the majority on this bill, he had not voted for the repeal of these acts, in the expectation that any declaration, oath, or security, whatever, would be required from the Dissenters. His reason for having no such expectation was, not that he did not feel as ardent a zeal for the maintenance of the Church of England as any man—and he trusted that the great majority of those who had voted with him shared the same sentiments—but that he diet not see the danger to be provided against. He did not believe that any real security had ever resulted to the Church from the existence of these acts;
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nor did he conceive from whence danger could arise to the Church, during the last eighty-three years. Though the terms "barrier" and "bulwark" had been applied to these acts by writers of the highest reputation, yet really they rather deserved the name of a net, which the larger fishes leaped over, while the smaller slipped through it, and only now and then a fish, called an alderman, was caught in its meshes. In his friendship for the Dissenters, however, he did not forget the respect due to honest prejudice. He did not desire to see any measure passed which would give a triumph to one party over the other. He objected to these securities, as they were called, because he believed them to be useless. He did not see how the circumstance of the member of a corporation having taken a Declaration, could give him more or less power to disturb the rights or possessions of the Church. For one, however, he was ready to agree to the Declaration, as it did not appear that any practical inconvenience was likely to follow it. He thought, also, that it was a great improvement, that the Declaration was not to be taken by every individual. Nothing could tend more to bring tests into contempt and ridicule, than their frequent and unnecessary repetition. Under these circumstances, he thought the noble lord would act unwisely if he separated those who were agreed on the main point, by refusing to consent to the instruction of his right hon. friend. The bill would still grant practical relief, and do away with the scandal of the present state of the law.
Lord Althorpealso objected to the proposed Declaration. He was an advocate for simple repeal, unaccompanied by any conditions, and would object to adding any new oaths or declarations to those prescribed to be taken by the people of this country. They were in this instance unnecessary, and afforded no security whatever to the Church. After, however, the pledge given by the right hon. gentleman, he should be sorry to oppose his proposition; and he preferred the Declaration introduced by the right hon. gentleman, to the other, for this reason, that it was simple and more moderate. He would, however, have opposed this provision, if it had been accompanied by any penalty similar to that now incurred by the omission of the Sacramental Test; for, in that case, in

1201
passing a bill for the relief of the Dissenters, they would be actually imposing a bill of pains and penalties on the people of England. It appeared, however, that the right hon. gentleman did not propose the infliction of any penalty further than the deprivation of office; and, with respect to the officers under the Crown, he left it at the option of government to require it of such persons and at such times as it might think fit. With such a discretionary power vested in the government, he trusted that this Declaration would be allowed to fall into disuse, but if a penalty were attached to the omission of the Declaration, it would never be allowed to remain a dead letter. Feeling, after the speech of the right hon. Secretary, that, with the modification to which he had alluded, the object of the Dissenters would be attained, he would not offer any opposition to the proposition. It gave him great pleasure to congratulate his noble friend on the success of his efforts. His name would go down to posterity revered and honoured as the mover of this salutary measure—a measure which was calculated to wipe away one of the foulest blots that ever stained the history of this country—a measure, which would have the effect of tranquillizing the minds and conciliating the affections of a large and valuable body of people. Although he was against the adoption of any Declaration whatsoever in cases of this description, he would not, by any opposition, prevent the accomplishment of this desirable measure.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, that if he felt any wish unsatisfied with respect to this question, it was because any declaration was called for. If the proposition of his noble friend had been acceded to in its original form, he should have considered it the greatest possible triumph of liberal principles and opinions. But, when he was told by high authority, that in pursuing the course recommended by the right hon. Secretary, they might indulge in the hope of final success, he was ready to unite his recommendation with that of others to the noble lord, in order to induce him to agree to the proposition which had been made.
Mr. D. W. Harveysaid, he had come down to the House on a former occasion as on the present, to enter on a full exposition of the great principles of Protest ant dissent, and to vindicate them from every
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attack, whether covered or undisguised. But the course at length tardily taken by his majesty's government not only rendered such a proceeding on his part unnecessary, but, perhaps, for the present at least, inexpedient. For himself, he deprecated all tests, whatever form or name they assumed; yet as the Declaration proposed was urged as a compliment to the prejudices of the Church, he would not deny a request which might gratify afflicted pride, provided it made no inroad on the great principles of non-conformity; and in this he was sure he spoke the sentiments of the entire dissenting community. For himself, he was more content than gratified; yet as it was his honour to owe his seat in that House, mainly to the disinterested exertions of an intelligent and enlightened body of Dissenters, he should defer his own sentiments to theirs, and regulate his future conduct on this bill as should comport with the feelings of that body. But he, at the same time, earnestly hoped that nothing would arise to disturb a feeling of unanimity which, from whatever cause arising, could not fail to advance the great principles of civil and religious freedom.
Mr. William Smithlikewise rose amid loud cries of "question." He observed, that he felt it would be ill taste in him to take up much of the time of the House, and he would therefore endeavour not to detain it beyond a few minutes; but when those who had known him long recollected that he had for a term of forty years been looking forward for what he now saw almost, as it were, within his grasp, and likewise within the grasp of thousands with whom he had been long and intimately connected, he trusted that they and the House would rather give him credit for not having sooner obtruded himself on their notice, than for an unfair wish to utter a few words, which, he was happy to say, would be very much in unison with what had fallen that evening from the hon. members who had preceded him. In the first place, he was willing to treat with the respect due to them honest and ancient prejudices; and he would also say, when he saw those prejudices wearing away day after day,—whether in consequence of the march of intellect or from what other cause—he thought that what still remained of those ancient prejudices did not require much to be sacrificed to them, and he could not but

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be persuaded, that if his noble friend would go on for some years longer, those prejudices would all vanish,—they would be entirely obliterated,—and an unqualified measure would be conceded, free from any declaration, and without any clause or provision being substituted in its room. Such a measure, he believed, would be agreed to with as much unanimity as appeared to be given in the present instance to a proposition for that which he considered not to be any security whatever, and which he believed would, a few years hence, be placed in exactly the same state, and would be found to be as unnecessary as the existing law was. He was, however, ready to allow for any prejudice which existed on the present occasion; and, so far as he was concerned, he would give way to that prejudice, rather than incur the risk of bringing about any disappointment which might arise elsewhere, or which might have the effect of forcing gentlemen in that House to take a course which might be, in some degree, opposed to their wishes. He hoped, however, that gentlemen would allow him, for a short time, to point out why those securities—or, more properly speaking, those proposed securities—where wholly and utterly useless. He would ask gentlemen, for a moment, to state in what they considered the security of the Church of England to consist? Was it not, he would demand, in the affection of a very large majority of the English people? He firmly believed that a very large majority of the English people was attached, strongly attached, to the Church of England. And while that attachment remained, the Church was no more in danger from the minority, that if that minority were of the same opinion with the larger number. Still, however, he thought the Established Church would be far more secure when those obnoxious acts were done away, than it even was now. For what was the effect of those laws but to keep up a feeling of irritation in the minds of many thousand persons in this country, who, if they did not think themselves oppressed by those measures,—if they did not feel that they were hardly treated by persons who differed from them in religious opinion,—would hardly bestow a thought on the subject, of the Established Church? Where could those apprehended dangers arise but within the walls of parliament? But
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never had the friends of the Dissenters in the House of Commons hinted at, much less proposed, any measure that could injure, or had a tendency to subvert, the Establishment. If he had attempted any thing of the kind, he should only have manifested his own extravagance and folly. He had not, on this occasion, objected to any words proposed in either declaration, because he knew of no form of words so definite and specific, as not to be likely to affect the minds and feelings of persons of a different religious persuasion, for whom that form was intended. If, at any future period, the Dissenters were accused of any thing like duplicity, should they object to, or desire to have altered, a single phrase in the Declaration, the just answer would be, that, so far from violating the sort of security included in this measure, they were only doing that which they had an undoubted right to do. The proposition to do away with those acts on such a security as the right hon. Secretary had proposed was, in his own opinion, not the most eligible mode of proceeding. He believed there were thousands of persons now in England on whom these prejudices operated in such a degree as would lead them to suppose, that, in at all relieving the Dissenters, parliament was doing away with the great bulwarks of the Church. Those prejudices might remain for some time longer; they might induce gentlemen to stand up in that House to oppose the slightest alteration in those laws; but they would ultimately be obliterated. He had observed, within a very short period, that a measure then in progress through the House, for the commutation of tithes, was stigmatized as calculated to inflict a gross injury on the Church of England; and such appeared to be the feeling of a large body of clergymen. This showed the feeling which existed on every question at all connected with the Church, and proved what an interpretation was put on any measure that appeared, in the slightest degree, to interfere with it.—The right hon. Secretary had said, that one reason for proposing this Declaration was, to make the settlement final. Now, in his view of the case, it could not be considered final. If the proposition of his noble friend for the total and unqualified repeal of those acts was agreed to, that would afford a far better chance of the final settlement of the difference between the two parties,

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than could be effected by any declaration whatsoever; and he thought; so, because it was on the ground of the existence of certain prejudices, which were dying away, that this supposed security was called for; and when those prejudices had died away, a final settlement of differences would, in truth and in fact, take place, and with it an utter forgetfulness of those distinctions which had too long continued; because any test or declaration directed against the Dissenters operated, in point of fact, against the Church of England. Now, he thought the present attempt at security really presented no security at all,—that, to use a phrase which he had heard (and it was a very pregnant one) in the course of this dispute, it was, with great solemnity, asking no security against no danger [hear.] This was what he felt; and he thought that there was no security whatever in the Declaration. He believed that at the present moment England was almost the only country in Europe where such qualifications were called for. Many papers had been laid before that House, which proved that liberal principles were cherished in many of the continental states; and he begged to call the attention of gentlemen to the treaty signed at Vienna by nearly all the plenipotentiaries of Europe, in 1815. In the articles annexed to the 8th article of that treaty was the following:—"Article 2. No innovation shall be made in the articles of this constitution, which secure equal protection and favour to every sect, and guarantee permission to all citizens, whatever their religious belief may be, to take employments and offices under the state." This was contained in the treaty concluded between the king of the Netherlands, Russia, England, Austria, and Prussia, on the 31st of May, 1815. Now, when he found that those states of Europe in which the Roman Catholic religion was established, had declared by solemn treaty, that no religious distinction should be suffered to exist; and when he recollected the words of lord Castlereagh, who was a party to that treaty, who had stated that there was not a more simple point on which the negociators of that time were agreed than this,—when he found that this liberal principle pervaded the whole of their proceedings,—when he recollected these things, he felt it to be a great disgrace that England should be the last to keep up such unjust distinctions. He did therefore sincerely
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rejoice in the success with which the proposition of his noble friend was likely to meet, because it would wipe away nearly—and he wished it would wipe away entirely,—that blot and disgrace which had so long existed on the character of England. Now he would ask of those gentlemen who said that the Church of England stood in need of some security, did not that church pride itself on being founded on the principles of the Christian religion, more truly and more purely than any other church in Europe? If that were the case, what did it want security for? Was not that church in possession of great connexions,—of royal, noble connexions? was she not in possession of an immense revenue, of resources the most extensive? If then with numbers, with power, with wealth, she was not safe against the assaults of persons like the Dissenters who had no bond amongst them, except the common bond which united them against injury, would not the Church of England when that injury was removed and forgotten, be placed in a better situation? What would she then have to fear? She had wealth, number, affection, power; add to these a disposition to conciliate those who had been too long depressed, and all apprehension for her safety must vanish. For these reasons, thinking that the security was not wanted,—thinking, if it was of no use, that it had better be dispensed with—and thinking that those prejudices which had so long existed were dying away, and would in a few years be wholly extinct—he felt that it would have been better if the proposition of his noble friend uncoupled with any restriction, had been suffered to pass. But, for one, he would gladly receive what might be given by the House; particularly when he took into consideration the opinion of the right hon. Secretary that this measure would stand a better chance in another place with this provision than it would do without it. He did, therefore, consent to the measure, on the part of those who had a good claim for that which they demanded; but at the same time, protesting against the alleged necessity of security, and contending that the Dissenters had a right to ask for the repeal of those acts without any condition whatever.
Lord John Russellbegged leave to remind the right hon. Secretary, that he had, on a former occasion, declared that, at the time when the bill was about going

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into a committee, he should be ready to listen to any proposition that might be made on the subject, and that if these acts could be repealed satisfactorily to the Church, it would be doubly satisfactory to him. Of that opinion he still remained; and he rejoiced to think, following the general impression of the House, that what he wished to effect might be done satisfactorily to the Dissenters, and not unsatisfactorily to the Church. He had listened with pleasure and attention to all that had passed, particularly to what had fallen from the right hon. Secretary and the right hon. gentleman (Mr. S. Bourne). He thought it was his duty to acquiesce in the proposition of the right hon. Secretary, although that of the right hon. gentleman came, perhaps, nearer to his own feelings. But, though that was the case, the declaration proposed by him had not the advantage of that part of the declaration of the right hon. Secretary, which would, he hoped, prove satisfactory to those who took care of the interests of the Church. That point he could not overlook in introducing this bill. He wished the measure not to be in any degree forced and compulsory: he was desirous that it should pass on free and willing grounds. He therefore had no hesitation in going into the committee with the instruction that the provision proposed by the right hon. Secretary should be referred to it. He wished that provision to be entertained, rather than any other. He would, however, guard himself from adopting any of the specific words or phrases which the right hon. Secretary might have introduced. With respect to the Declaration, he would say, that there unquestionably was something in the practice which was calculated to raise some doubt in the minds of the Dissenters; but he indulged in the hope of its being removed by conciliatory conferences with respect to the form of the words proposed, rather than by angry discussion and debate. Therefore his wish was, that in the first instance the committee should adopt the proposition of the right hon. Secretary wholly and entirely; and when the bill was printed, it could be considered as a perfectly open question: This appeared to him to be the course more likely to obtain the assent of all parties than any other he could point out. This measure was not to be considered as operating solely on Dissenters. If it was extended to Scotland,
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as he presumed it would be, the Declaration would be taken by members of the Established Church in that kingdom, who would be there viewed in the character of Dissenters.
Mr. Peelsaid, the Declaration he had proposed was applicable to none, except those who were about to fill offices. If the Declaration was extended to Scotland, which he did not propose to do, it would have the effect of placing members of the Church of England in the situation of Dissenters.
The Speaker then left the chair, and the House went into a committee, Mr. R. Gordon in the chair.
Mr. Peelsaid, that he had drawn up the Declaration, but as to the machinery of the bill he could say nothing. He entertained a confident hope that the insertion of that condition would ensure the success of the measure. He had drawn up the clause on his own view of the case, but he had not had an opportunity of consulting any professional person on it.
The bill went through the committee.

PASSENGERS' REGULATION BILL.
On the motion, that this bill be read a second time,
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that when he first heard of this bill, he supposed that if a few comforts were added to the passengers while on board the vessels, all the objections to the present system would be obviated; but, on reading the papers laid before the House, he found that the objections did not relate solely to inconveniences of the voyage, but to the principle on which voluntary emigration was now conducted. The complaints of the colonists against this principle resolved themselves into two points; first, that the emigrants were paupers; secondly, that they were chosen from the disaffected classes. Every page of this correspondence contained allegations of this nature. Now, the reasons assigned by the colonists, why unlimited emigration ought not to be thus allowed, were the very reasons which were urged by English and Irish gentlemen before the committees of 1824, 1825, and the committee of last year, and by the Roman Catholic priests, in order to prove that emigration ought to be encouraged as much as possible. The former object to receiving paupers and persons from disaffected districts, and the

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latter say, that the paupers are the very persons who ought to be encouraged to emigrate; and further, that it would be wise to thin the population in the most disaffected districts by emigration [The hon. member here read portions of the evidence before various committees, in support of this position]. Here, then, were two conflicting and absolutely contradictory opinions. The colonists refuse to take the disaffected paupers of Ireland, and the English and Irish gentlemen say that these are the very persons who ought to emigrate. They were at issue upon a leading point, and on this point the House had to judge. It was absolutely necessary that government should decide one way or the other; that they should either check the emigration of paupers and disaffected persons, or fall into the views of the Irish proprietors; or, in a modified way, into the view of the right hon. member for Newcastle, and bear a part of the expense. He believed there were causes operating which would prevent the government from attempting to check the tide of emigration, even if they were inclined to do so; and if this bill were intended as a check to voluntary emigration, which he hoped it was not, it was his opinion that it would be found impossible to carry it into effect. He did not enter into the views of the right hon. member for Newcastle, and wish that 20 l. a-head should be given to the emigrants; but then he contended, that government ought to lend their aid to locating the emigrants on their landing. It appeared from this correspondence that 15 s.—let it be taken at 20 s.—a-head, placed in the hands of the colonial government, would remove the greater part of the distress complained of by the colonists on the landing of the emigrants. This House ought not to stand idly by, and contribute nothing on this subject but reports. And now a word or two as to the bill itself. He really thought that so many alterations were necessary in it, that they could only be satisfactorily made in a committee up-stairs. It had been stated, that in consequence of the crowded state of these vessels, the want of food and of water, and the dirt, infectious diseases had been generated, which destroyed a considerable portion of the crews, and of the population of the towns in which they landed. Now, with regard to the ship "James," in which it had been said that the typhus fever had been generated, the
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allegation of one of the governors was a complete answer to that of the other governor, who, in utter ignorance of the typhus fever, said it had been generated on board that vessel. He spoke on the authority of the best physicians, when he said that the typhus fever could no more be generated than the scarlet fever, the small-pox, or any other of those diseases which were called contagious. When the House recollected how long the typhus fever had prevailed in Ireland, there was no difficulty in finding out how it happened that it raged on board a vessel filled with poor and destitute Irish people. He had been told by the right hon. member for Waterford, that when this vessel sailed, the typhus fever prevailed so universally, in that part of Ireland, that the funds of a charitable institution, whose object was to relieve persons afflicted with this disease, were totally exhausted. Unless the right hon. gentleman was disposed to grant a committee up-stairs, before which all parties interested, and especially the Irish shipowners, might be heard, he must withhold his support to the bill.
Mr. V. Stuartsaid, it appeared to him that this bill merely consisted of regulations which secured sufficient space for the passengers during the voyage; he could not, therefore, understand by what party, or on what ground, so useful a measure was to be opposed. As to the Irish shipowners, if they meant to do what was right, they could have no objection to do it under an act of parliament, and if they did not, then the sooner they were made to do it the better. In his opinion the bill encouraged rather than retarded emigration, and he therefore should support it.
Mr. Robinsonperfectly agreed with the hon. member for Waterford, who in a few words, had placed the subject in the right point of view. If the hon. member opposite would carefully examine the information which had been received from the different governors—information which put speculation at defiance—he would find that a case had been made out so strong as to warrant the House in restoring the provisions of a bill which had unfortunately been repealed a year or two ago. He could not understand why the hon. member, in arguing against the provisions of this bill, should have gone into the great question of emancipation. The bill certainly had a bearing on that question; but the hon. member had argued as if it

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included the whole of that question, The present state of the Passengers' law was, in his opinion, monstrous, and a disgrace to the country. He decidedly objected to the proposition for going into a committee above stairs: the season for the departure of ships with emigrants was approaching, and, unless some act was passed, we should have a repetition of the same horrors in the present year which had been in the last so justly complained of.
Mr. J. Grattanconsidered the present measure to be one designed more for the benefit of the colonies, than for the advantage either of England or Ireland. In his opinion it was calculated to impede emigration rather than to promote it. He was desirous of affording every facility to the purposes of free emigration. The inspection of the vessels was a measure to which he had no objection, but he did not think it necessary to sanction a bill imposing such restrictions as the present. At all events, it was desirable to go into a committee on the bill; as it certainly was one which should not be hastily adopted.
Mr. Secretary Huskissonsaid, he wished to call the attention of the House to the real question before it. He was not disposed to enter into a discussion upon the general question of emigration: that was a subject which would require a more extended line of argument than hon. members would be inclined to listen to at so late a period of the evening. He could not agree that the question of emigration was so extremely simple, that the House would be justified in saying, "if it be right to encourage emigration, then it is unnecessary to take any care of the manner in which the parties emigrating are transported to the country of their destination.' The hon. member for Bridport had spoken of those parties as if they had no claim upon the consideration of the country in which they had been born, and in which they had devoted many years of their lives to labour, until peculiar circumstances in the condition of that country rendered their further services superfluous or inapplicable. Under such circumstances he could not consent to speak of these people—the most helpless and uninformed of the community—as of a mere commodity which was the subject of export from one locality to another. It had surprised him to hear the hon. member lay down those doctrines of political philosophy and medical science which he had brought
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forward, and especially to hear him argue upon them as upon principles to which no person could object. The hon. member's argument amounted to this—that where typhus had broken out on board the emigration ships, that malady had not arisen out of any crowded or unclean state of the vessel, but necessarily proceeded from the emigrants themselves having been put on board in a state of disease. This might be a discovery made by the hon. member, but certainly it was directly contrary to the opinions of all those who had paid the most attention to such subjects. But how did the facts appear from the reports upon the table? The letters from New Brunswick distinctly attributed the disease in the ships which had reached that port to the crowded state of the vessels themselves, and to the entire want of order and cleanliness which pervaded their arrangements. The authority of this correspondence could not be questioned; but the hon. member had garbled it, in order to make it serve his own peculiar theory. Where the letters spoke of a particular parcel of emigrants as the most miserable and squalid on their arrival that the writer had ever beheld, the hon. member at once jumped to the inference, that the people must necessarily have been in that state when they embarked from Europe: now, it was at least as likely, and certainly better proved, that they had fallen into this condition in the course of the passage. The hon. member said, that typhus had broken out in the "James," almost as extensively as in any; and yet, certainly, in that case, from the number of persons on board, it was evident that there had been no crowding of passengers. But the hon. gentleman forgot that this ship was shewn to have been in total want of provisions, a circumstance just as likely to produce serious disease as too great a confinement in point of space. It was needless, however, to go into detail upon the state of particular ships, when the writer in this correspondence, a captain in the navy, who had been employed in the preventive Slave service on the coast of Africa, declared that the condition of many vessels which he had seen arrive at Newfoundland with emigrants beggared all the descriptions of the state of the captured slave-ships, even under the accumulated miseries belonging to the existing system of contraband trade. It was, then, the duty of ministers, and their

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imperative duty, to call upon parliament for power to put a stop to these enormities; and, with his best exertions, even in the teeth of science and philosophy, he would oppose the proposition for going into a committee, which would allow the opportunity of their perpetration during another season. He protested that, if the committee were carried, he would himself recommend all the colonies to pass bills, in their own defence, for general embarkation; for we had no right to inundate them with such a population as they were receiving under the existing system. Honourable gentlemen spoke of the Passenger's act, as being calculated to check the flow of voluntary emigration; but he was certain that nothing could be more likely to prevent voluntary emigration than the accounts which parties now received of the miserable fate of those who had gone before them. He agreed entirely that it was the duty of government towards emigrants to see that they were not shipped in any case without a competent supply of food and water. The food might be of the very commonest description, but a proper quantity of it they should have. And the water should be of a drinkable quality, shipped in a condition fit for human creatures; and not in old casks which had recently contained molasses or salt hides, which had been the case in more than one instance. It was too much to talk of there being no necessity for these regulations. Even in the time of the Slave-trade there had been a law regulating the number of slaves by the tonnage upon the middle passage; and that which we had thought it right to do for the negroes of Africa ought we to refuse to do for our own countrymen? Honourable gentlemen talked of its being hard that ships should be put to the trouble of furnishing an account of every passenger that they carried out. Why, they were compelled to furnish an account of the smallest parcel that they took out, and that which they did for a bale of goods, they might surely well make shift to do for a living man. He wished to throw as little difficulty in the way of the shipping trade as possible; but he would insist upon having such a quantity of provision and water always on board, as should guarantee the emigrants from famine in case of a protracted passage; and the state of the vessels as to numbers should be such as was conducive to the health
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and common safety of the human beings who were on board of them. With these views he resisted the appointment of the committee up-stairs, and should press his own measure as rapidly as the forms of the House would allow him to do.
Mr. Humesaid, he was surprised to find the professed advocate of free trade supporting a bill like that before the House. Honourable gentlemen seemed to forget that the object of emigration was, not to send out of the country the choicer portion of its inhabitants, but to provide for those who were in a state of excessive poverty, and had no means of obtaining employment. The whole of the provisions of the Passengers' acts had been calculated to do nothing but mischief, and the trade of carrying emigrants must have stopped if they had not been evaded. The stores required to be put on board were perfectly unsuited to the habits of the persons who were to use them. The Irish were made sick by the diet of beef ' and pudding; and the right hon. gentleman talked of providing biscuit on board. Who wanted biscuit? For the Scotch he would answer, that oatmeal and water was all that was necessary. The business of emigration had gone on very well without any restrictions until the year 1817, and then, because one or two cases of abuse arose, the trade was cramped with laws which, if they had not been evaded, would have put an end to it entirely. He could not see the consistency of this conduct on the part of the right hon. gentleman, the advocate of the principles of free trade. It was an odd change in the tactics of the right hon. gentleman; but it was not quite his first, and he went on wavering. He had begun well; now he was going on not quite so well; and it was difficult to say where he would land at last. For himself, he was against the bill altogether. He would have no interference whatever with the Irish who might wish to emigrate. Every arrangement by legislation would be only injurious to them. He trusted, therefore, that the House would reject the measure altogether.
Sir J. Newportsaid, he considered the present bill as an innovation on the freedom of trade. For fifty years the system of emigration had been going on without any legislative interference; and no evils had arisen from the want of such regulations as the present. He thought it was unfair

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for government to act in so important a matter on the representations of individual cases, given by interested parties. Much stress had been laid on two cases of typhus fever which had been taken out from Waterford to one of our colonies. Now it happened, that the whole of the last summer typhus had prevailed to a great extent at Waterford, and it could not be a matter of surprise that two vessels should have departed from it with cases of fever on board; but what he feared was, that in the representations thus made, no inquiries had been made into the circumstances of the vessels when they sailed from port; and he thought that the measure before the House should be delayed until an opportunity should be given for obtaining full information on the subject. He thought that, if this bill was converted into a check, which he believed it would be, to emigration, every Irish person whose emigration it would hinder should be maintained in England or Scotland, If the House intended to go to the expense of transferring the poor to the colonies at a cost to the country of 30 l. per man, some regulations of this kind might be enforced; but voluntary emigration should be allowed to take its own course. The emigrants ought to be permitted to make the best provision for their voyage without being subject to any government regulations.
Mr. Wilmot Hortonsaid, he could easily explain the difference of opinion between himself and the right hon. baronet on this subject. If the right hon. bart. thought that the colonies would gladly receive the forced population of Ireland, which some gentlemen of that country encouraged for the purpose of raising their rents, if he thought that redundant population, no matter how wretched and destitute in its condition, would be gladly received on their arrival in the colonies, he was right in opposing any regulations as to the mode of their transfer from the country. If the right hon. baronet thought that every man ejected from his small farm and miserable hut, by the system of law now in force in Ireland, was to be willingly received, the moment he reached the shores of our colonies, he might be right in opposing any measure which, in his opinion, would tend to restrict emigration; but the right hon. baronet was wrong in assuming that such would be the case. The whole of the information laid before the committee on emigration proved that the colonists had no
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disposition to receive all who went from this country as emigrants. The right hon. baronet knew full well the circumstances under which large bodies of the people emigrated from Ireland, that they had no option, but were obliged to resort to emigration as a last resource. But, would not the evils of their condition be multiplied on their arrival in the colonies without any preparation, or any provision being made for their employment or subsistence? Was it to be supposed that on their arrival they were to find, as if by miracle, a provision ready for them? Such a doctrine would be most absurd, and if acted upon would have the effect of increasing a hundred fold the evils which the emigrants had endeavoured to avoid by removing from their native country. He for one must ever protest against the doctrine, that the immediate effect of indiscriminate emigration was to be the reception of the emigrants by the colonists. The very reverse was already proved in too many cases. America had legislated on the subject, and had come to the decision not to receive the crowds thrown off from the forced population of Ireland, where the increase was directly encouraged, in order to secure occupants for the small parcels of land into which gentlemen divided their estates in that country, for the purpose of obtaining a larger rental. If, then, America would not receive them, was it not hard that those which she refused should be thrown on the colonies? Could any thing be more unjust than that those colonies should be as it were called upon to provide for a large portion of the population of this country, who were not in a condition to offer any equivalent in the way of useful service for the subsistence which they thus required? The right hon. baronet had talked of the system of sending out emigrants at the public expense, and without being able to support his argument by the testimony of a single witness of character, still contended, that emigrants so sent out would not be able to defray the expense of their outfit, or rather he rested satisfied by denying, without any evidence, that which was supported by the testimony of so many competent witnesses. Until the right hon. baronet could support that denial by the evidence of competent witnesses, he must, in his turn, deny the justice of the right hon. baronet's conclusion.—He would also deny that the sending out emigrants in the way which he had proposed could

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be considered as an expense to the country; for to supply a man with an outfit and provisions, which he was to repay in a year or two, could not be considered an expense. He had better ground for his denial than the right hon. baronet; for no proof whatever had been offered on the other side. But, to come to the question more immediately before the House, he begged to deny that the regulations contained in the present bill were any infraction of the principles of free trade. What did those regulations propose? They made it imperative on the master of a ship, taking out emigrant passengers, to provide a sufficient quantity of water and proper food for the voyage. Were not these called for by the common dictates of humanity? Could any thing be more reasonable or humane, than that some such regulations should be enforced, for the benefit of those who, from their situation, could not be aware of the privations to which they might be exposed in a long voyage? He was astonished that hon. gentlemen were not ashamed to come down to that House, and object to regulations such as those proposed by the bill, on the ground that they were in violation of the principles of free trade. The right hon. baronet complained that government had acted on the representations of interested individuals. From whom could the government expect representations of this kind, and on whose testimony could they place reliance, if not on those of distinguished individuals, holding situations of great trust and responsibility? Was no attention to be paid to the official statements of such men as the governors of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, or Newfoundland? Yet all these had concurred: in their communications to government, as to the evils produced by large masses of emigrants going out without any preparation or provision. Sir James Kemp said, that such was the wretched and sickly condition of many of the parties that arrived from this country, that the hospital was soon filled with them, and that more extensive accommodation of that kind was found necessary. But such cases were not isolated. The whole of the colonies cried out against the system as it had been recently carried on; and there was scarcely a private letter which reached this country, which was not full of such representations, and which did not call for relief from the pressure of emigration so conducted. It would appear, also, that this system was
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not confined to England, for that we had inoculated our neighbours with a similar indifference to the manner in which emigration was conducted. From a letter which he had seen, it appeared that some time ago a ship, the "Helen Maria," of two hundred and forty tons, sailed from Amsterdam for America, with three hundred and eleven emigrants on board; a number which, it must be admitted, was more than could be sufficiently accommodated in a vessel of that size. After being a short time at sea, the vessel met with severe weather, and was dismasted. She afterwards got into Falmouth, where it was discovered that no attention had been paid to the situation of the passengers. The greatest want of cleanliness was perceived among them. On looking to the state of their provisions, it was found that their beef was good, but that the bread and water were both bad, and deficient in quantity. No doubt many instances could be adduced of vessels leaving our own ports, equally deficient in the quality and quantity of the provisions; and was the House to permit such cases to be of frequent occurrence, without making some regulations by which so many evils might be avoided? It was their duty to see that such regulations were enforced; and on these grounds he felt himself bound to support the present bill.
Mr. Stanleyadmitted the great zeal and perseverance of his right hon. friend on the subject of emigration, and the readiness with which, in the course of his labours in the committee, he had attended to every humane suggestion that had been made. He was sorry, however, that he had on this occasion deviated so much from the question before the House, and mixed up a theoretical question with one; which was purely practical. With the opinions of his right hon. friend on the bill, he fully concurred. The right hon. baronet, and the hon. member for Montrose, had argued the question as if their only object was to get rid of the superabundant population, no matter how, but at the cheapest possible rate. The representations on which the government had acted were, he contended, such as they could not refuse to attend to; and all these had concurred in stating, that the colonies would not receive the miserable and almost unserviceable crowds who went out in search of employment. The consequence was, that some such measure as

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the present was necessary. The hon. member for Montrose had objected to the correspondence on which some of the details rested; but he would appeal to the whole House whether, if one twentieth part of that correspondence had reached the hon. member, they should ever have had an end of his comments upon it? The hon. member had set himself up as the apostle of free trade; but admitting his apostle-ship, he must dispute his doctrine, that in no case, and under no circumstances, were the principles of free trade to be departed from. The case before the House was one which called for the proposed regulations, and it would, he maintained, be doing great injustice to the colonists, as well as to the emigrants, if they were not adopted. The whole of the communications received on the subject proved that those regulations were necessary. He had voted for the repeal of the last bill, but he could not conscientiously withhold his support from this, or suffer another season of emigration to pass without having some regulations in force, which would prevent a recurrence of the mischiefs that had arisen from the want of them.
Mr. P. Thompsoncontended, that his hon. friends did not oppose this billon the ground of particular restrictions. All they asked was, that it should go to a committee up-stairs, to inquire whether any restrictions were necessary, and if any thing could prove that the House was not the best place where such inquiry should be made, it would be the tone and temper in which the Secretary for the colonies had addressed the House upon it. He gave great credit to that right hon. gentleman for his principles of free trade, and wished him joy of his steady adherence to them. The maxim of the right hon. gentleman on this occasion seemed to be,
"— Video meliora proboque,
Deteriora sequor."
The hon. member then proceeded to contend, that there was no analogy between the necessity of regulations in ships conveying slaves, and those now made for emigrants. The slave was forced to make the voyage, but the emigrant acted voluntarily, and could, beforehand, inspect the accommodations prepared for him. If it was thought necessary to legislate as to the quality of the emigrant's food in his voyage across the Atlantic, hon. members should look at the other side of the picture, and consider what a continuation of misery
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parties were exposed to who were prevented from emigration. The hon. gentleman then went on to contend that no case had yet been made out for the proposed regulations, and that they ought in the first instance to be submitted to the inquiries of a committee above stairs.
Mr. S. Worthysaid, he had been a member of the Emigration committee, and from all that had there appeared, there was no one who could doubt that some regulations were necessary, and more particularly as the season was now approaching when emigration would take place. He therefore would give his support to the bill.
Mr. Baringsaid, that the only question was whether there ought to be a committee up stairs to examine further into the subject, or whether they should at once decide the question.
Sir J. Beresfordsaid, he had had frequent opportunities of conversing with governors and admirals stationed in the colonies, who all concurred in bearing testimony to the sufferings of the miserable emigrants whose necessities had driven them to seek shelter in a foreign country.
The bill was then read a second time.