Commons Sitting of 20 June 1828

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, to which the Army Estimates were referred. On the resolution "for granting 36,898 l. 10 s. 6d. to defray the charge of Garrisons at home and abroad, for the year 1828,"
Colonel Daviessaid, he did not rise to oppose the resolution. He had very often pointed out parts of the military expenditure which might be saved; but, as he saw no disposition in the House to make any reduction of the public burthens, he thought it would be absurd to take up the time of the House uselessly.
Mr. Humesaid, he thought there were a variety of items, which, with a view to economy, might be saved. The sum now called for was composed, in a great measure, of sinecures. Now, whether a sinecure was civil, military, or clerical, he felt it right to make war upon it. After enumerating the different garrisons where governors received salaries, although there were no garrisons at the stations, the hon. member expressed a hope, that the government would allow these sinecure garrisons to expire with the lives of their present possessors.
Sir H. Hardingedid not defend these garrisons upon any other principle, than that they were gifts in the disposal of the Crown, for the reward of long and distinguished services. If the present mode of disposing of them could not stand upon that principle, he readily admitted they

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could stand on nothing else. There were many general officers, of forty years standing, who had not more than 200 l. a year; and he contended that they must suffer from this inadequate remuneration, if the Crown had not a power of rewarding their services, by the appointment to garrisons.
Colonel Daviessaid, the danger was, that these sinecures might be bestowed on individuals on account of political connexions, and not in consequence of public services.
Mr. Humesaid, he should be glad to know what were the meritorious services of the governor of Dartmouth?
Sir H. Hardingereplied, that the situation had been, for upwards of a century and a half, in the same family.
Sir J. Wrottesleysaid, that many officers received 500 l. a year, though they had never served curing the war. He preferred the power to grant a government rather than a pension for service; because it was more agreeable to the feelings of an honourable man. But he wished to see them bestowed upon those who really deserved them. The case of Dartmouth was a very strong one. No one could have a vested interest in a thing which parliament voted annually.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that Dartmouth had been in the hands of civilians of the same family for a long time; not for any laudable purpose, but for the most suspicious possible. The holder of it had great interest in the borough, which returned two members to parliament. He should feel it his duty to move, that the grant be reduced by 173 l. 17 s., the amount of the salary of the governor.
Captain Bastardsaid, he believed the fort had been built by the family, in whose hands the office of governor had so long remained.
Mr. Maberlythought, that, as a finance committee was sitting, whose business it would be to investigate all matters of this nature, the subject had better be left to them.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, that if the right hon. gentleman would postpone the grant until it was ascertained whether the fort had been built by the family, he would postpone his motion.
After a desultory conversation,
the committee divided: For sir J. Graham's Motion 38; Against it 76.
Sir H. Hardingenext moved "that 283,193 l. be granted to defray the charge
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of disembodied militia of the united kingdom, for 1828." This sum was voted under an act of parliament, but he hoped that a reduction would be made next year.
Mr. S. Ricethought that much of this large expense might have been saved. This militia had cost the country 2,500,000 l. in the last twelve years, and no adequate value was given for it. The expense was under three heads:—training and exercise, enrolment of men, and expense connected with their effective strength. First, as to training, there had been only three trainings in the last twelve years, which had cost the country a large sum each. What possible benefit could the service have derived from three trainings in twelve years? And yet those three trainings had cost upwards of 300,000 l. If the training and exercise were not required, of what use was the balloting and enrolment? In the metropolis and the adjacent counties, balloting was a system of mere fraud and perjury. He believed that if the militia were called out in the districts he had mentioned, no available force could be obtained. The same observations applied to all parts of the country. The balloting caused an annual expense of 24,000 l., besides occasioning considerable trouble to the home and foreign offices, and the lords lieutenants of counties. Any person who looked at the present strength of the militia staff must be satisfied, that it was greater than was require. By the 57th George 3rd, a power was vested in the Crown for reducing the militia staff. Immediately after the passing of that statute, lord Sidmouth proceeded to effect a reduction. Now, he was desirous that government should receive from parliament a similar discretionary power with, respect to the whole militia service, and exercise it, if they should find occasion. A more preposterous job than the present establishment of the Irish militia staff had never received the sanction of parliament. In Ireland, there was no ballot and no training; the expense of the staff, however, was greater than in England. The service in Ireland was merely a source of patronage to the colonels of the regiments, ft was their custom to form their men into bands, for the entertainment of their friends at their mansions. He did not complain of the taste for pomp which those gentlemen displayed, but he did not think it right that they should indulge it at the

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public expense. It might be urged that the maintenance of the Irish militia was necessary, to preserve the public tranquillity; but it should be recollected, that there exsited an efficient police for that purpose, and he believed that the country would not be more disturbed than usual if the whole of the Irish militia establishment were put down.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the imputations cast upon government were not warranted by facts. When he was a member of the Irish government, he had brought in a bill to reduce the militia staff of Ireland, by which a saving had been effected to the country. He thought that parliament would very properly object to invest government with a power to deal with this constitutional force according to [their discretion. Whatever power was granted to the executive by the legislature on the subject, ought to be strictly defined. He would not maintain that it might not become expedient to alter the constitution of this force, in a manner which might save expense without depriving the country of the benefit of the militia service at the breaking out of a war. He denied that the present system of ballot and training was not useful. The ballot gave a certain number of men, who were bound to perform duty when called upon; and it was necessary to know where men were to be found on a sudden occasion. The government would submit a plan to the House when it was prepared, by which a reduction might be made by definite rather than general powers to be granted by the legislature.
Sir John Wrottesleysaid, he did not think it right to abolish the militia force. In 1793, the military establishment was so small, that the country, at the breaking out of the war, was absolutely dependent; for its security upon the militia. He would, however, point out a plan by; which the efficiency of the militia could be increased without any additional expense. Within the last thirteen years, the infantry of the line had been greatly improved, whilst no attention had been paid to those improvements by the militia; and were a war to break out, the Serjeants of militia would know nothing beyond what they were informed of at the close of the last conflict. There ought to be a permanent militia force kept up, with a due proportion between the numbers of officers and men, and a constant system of exercise
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should proceed, so that all the men would be trained in a few years. The militia, might then do the duty of the veterans, and be made useful in many respects.
Colonel Woodsaid, it was not desirable to break down a force like the militia, which was capable of being called into active service at a short notice. If war were to take place with France, now that the facilities of steam navigation were so extended, the services of the militia would be indispensable. It might be desirable to give government the power of suspending the ballot; but even that should not be done lightly and as a matter of course; for it had been before refused by parliament, on the ground of its being unconstitutional. He was colonel of a corps of militia, which consisted of one thousand two hundred men, and he had that morning asked his adjutant how many men would be likely to turn out if they were called on. The adjutant replied that one thousand men would assemble in the course of a few days. Upon the whole, he was inclined to think that some reductions might-advantageously be made, but he would never consent to any proposition for putting down the service altogether.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that the expense of their regular force during the last eleven years had amounted to 5,410,000 l. or about 490,000 l. a year. Now, was it worth while to keep up that enormous expense to guard against the possible event of our being taken by surprise with respect to hostilities? The gallant colonel seemed to apprehend danger from steam navigation. But, in a contest of that kind, this country must necessarily have the advantage. We had made the greatest improvements in steam-navigation and machinery, and possessed the best coal-mines in the world.
After some further conversation, the resolution was agreed to. On the resolution, "for granting 1,500 l. to the Royal Cork Institution, for the year 1828,"
Mr. Humeasked, why were they not called on to make similar grants to Limerick or Waterford, as well as to Cork?
Mr. R. Gordonsaw no reason why Cork, which was a wealthy city, should not maintain a literary society, if it chose to have one, at its own expense.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the institution was established in 1802 by private subscription, and was continued'

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until 1807, and then its members made application for parliamentary aid. It was a literary society, and lectures were given there gratis, to the middling and more humble classes of society. Upon this ground it was that it had been fostered by government, at an expense of from 1,600 l. to 1,800 l. a year. It was, however, to be but a temporary grant, and he had limited it this year to 1,500 l., a sum which he did not consider ill spent, in disseminating knowledge through a large portion of the Irish people.
Mr. S. Ricewas of opinion, that unless the pesent Finance committee took up all these subjects, and reported on them as that of 1817 had done, seriatim, it would not do its duty. The grant had been acceded to in 1807, by the right hon. member for Waterford, for the purpose of sowing the good seeds of education and scientific improvement in the south of Ireland; but on an understanding that, when the association was more matured, the grant should be made in favour, not of Cork, but of some city which required it more. 36,000 l. had already been expended in this way at Cork, whose institution was not, after all, so praiseworthy as that of Belfast.
Mr. D. W. Harveysaid, he had, last session, suggested the expediency of establishing one or more committees to inquire into such subjects. Discussions, such as the present, were productive of no good, and only served to sink the House of Commons in the estimation of the country.
Lord Morpethsaid, it was high time retrenchment should be introduced in every branch of expenditure, and he should therefore move, as an amendment, that the vote be reduced from 1,500 l. to 1,000 l.
Mr. Humeremarked, that whilst we were contributing to improve the people of Cork by hundreds of pounds at a vote, their own contribution to the object in view amounted to no more in hand than 170 l.
Mr. Northwas apprehensive, if the reduction was so sudden, that the institution would be deprived of means to defray the salaries of the highly scientific lecturers in the institution. The argument that England maintained its own scientific, literary, and mechanics' institutions, was not fairly applied to the question, because England was wealthy; Ireland excessively impoverished. As
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things were in Ireland, unless parliament contributed to the support of institutions like this, there would be none. He hoped the noble lord would, for these reasons, withdraw his amendment.
Lord Morpethsaid, that the reduction was very moderate, and he should certainly divide the committee on the question.
The Committee divided: For the Amendment 26; Against it 66: Majority 40. After which, the Chairman reported progress.

NEW SOUTH WALES BILL.
Mr. Huskisson Mr. Huskisson moved, that the House resolve itself into a committee upon this bill.
Sir J. Mackintoshrose, and after alluding to the various changes that had taken place in the Colonial office, to which might be attributed a great portion of the delay which the measures proposed by the right hen. gentleman had met with, he said, that at that late hour of the night, and in the exhausted state in which he found himself, he should take care not to waste any part of that time and attention which the kindness of the House usually bestowed upon him, by unnecessary delay, or still more unnecessary apologies. Without further comment, therefore, he should proceed at once. The objects embraced in the motion of which he had given notice, were embodied in the following resolutions, which he should now read, as the foundation for those arguments with which he should afterwards trouble the House. The first resolution which he should propose was, "That it be an instruction to the committee to receive a clause for the immediate establishment of trial by jury in New South Wales and Van Dieman's Land (excepting the penal settlement for offenders there convicted), and for directing the governor and council of each colony respectively, to frame regulations for that purpose, respecting the number and qualifications of jurors, either in the whole colony, or in any districts which may seem to them to require modification." The second resolution was,—"That it be an instruction to the committee to receive a clause to provide for the election of one-third of the legislative councils of both the said colonies (till assemblies shall be called by his majesty), to be chosen for five years, by all persons enjoying a clear yearly income of 100 l., who shall have been free inhabitants for three years, and

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to direct the governor and the present council to make such regulations as they think fit, respecting the time, place, and other circumstances of the election of such members."—Having stated the objects which he had in view, and which were contained in these resolutions, he might almost content himself without intruding upon the patience of the House; but feeling, as he did, a warm interest in the fate of those colonies, he hoped he might be excused if he trespassed a little upon their time. It appeared by a late census, that in New South Wales there were fifty-five thousand free Englishmen, all of whom would be eligible to act as jurors. He saw no reason why those colonies should differ from other colonies, and why the blessings of the British constitution should be withheld from them, while other parts of his majesty's foreign possessions enjoyed those blessings. Their condition as penal colonies was no reason why they should not possess the right of electing representatives, and the blessing of a trial by jury. The only way to wipe out the foul stain cast upon these colonies would be, to show their inhabitants that they were placed upon the same footing and enjoyed the same privileges as other parts of his majesty's possessions. Many persons had been deterred from settling in New South Wales from no other cause than that it was branded by the legislature as a receptacle for crime. The only way to introduce a reformatory system, if he might use the term, and to make those colonies one grand penitentiary, would be to afford to the inhabitants the means of relieving themselves from the stigma which had been cast upon them. The hon. and learned gentleman proceeded at some length to point out the advantages which would arise by the introduction into New South Wales of the two measures to which he had referred; namely, the right to elect representatives and the trial by jury. The right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Huskisson) had narrowed the ground upon which he was now presuming to legislate; and the only question between them appeared to be, whether the proposed measures should be adopted now or hereafter. He wished to begin the work of reformation by granting some of those privileges at once, which in time must all be conceded. The free settlers were all native Englishmen, who had most of them been jurors in their native coun-
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try. He was not introducing new measures amongst a new people. The great body of the settlers were already acquainted with the duties which, as jurors and electors, they would have to fulfil, and consequently the present time was that which should be seized upon, to afford them those advantages which they were entitled to receive. But, if those measures were delayed to an indefinite hereafter, the present proportion of British settlers would grow less and less, and a new race would spring up, who would neither understand nor be capable of appreciating the blessings of the British freemen. Was it wise to say, wait until this people shall number half a million, and then, ignorant as they would be of the benefits to be derived from the privilege of electing members to watch over their interests, and equally ignorant of the blessing of the trial by jury thrown suddenly amongst them those institutions of which they had previously known nothing, and the benefits of which they would be wholly incapable of appreciating? Was it consistent with policy to withhold those institutions from the colonists of New South Wales, and wait until they became too strong for subjection; when they might possibly demand that as a right which they would now look upon as a boon? If those institutions were delayed, a civil war, or the total loss of the colonies, must follow.—The hon. and learned gentleman then alluded to the feuds which existed in New South Wales between the "emancipationists," as they called themselves, and the non-emancipated. Now, nothing, he conceived, could have a greater tendency to soften down asperities, and blend men together, than when they were in the habit of acting together in different situations of society. From the result of his inquiries, he could not help wishing that he had not at first moved for the appointment of a select committee to investigate the subject now under discussion. Excepting Mr. Bigg, there was no authority against the introduction of those institutions: opposed to his evidence, there was the testimony of governor Hinton, and also that of the late governor-general Macquarric, who was justly called the father of the colony, and who, in his report to lord Bathurst, in 1825, stated, that there was a sufficient body of freemen in those colonies competent to perform the duties not only of jurors, but electors. It might be said that

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sir Thomas Brisbane, because he was devoted to the pursuits of science and philosophy, was not a competent witness upon such a question. It was true that queen Elizabeth said, that "Mr. Bacon," as she called him, was too much of a wit to make a good lawyer; but, however true the observation might be, generally speaking, it was about as just in the instance of the great Bacon, as it would be to say, that sir Thomas Brisbane was an incompetent witness upon a question like the present, because he had brought home a larger; share of knowledge upon other subjects than fell to the lot of most men. Chief justice Wilde, and Mr. Justice Forbes, had also given it as their opinion, that the trial by jury would work well in New South Wales; and they laughed with scorn at the idea, that this colony was not as ripe as any other to partake of the benefits of a free constitution.—Now, with respect to a representation, there was no doubt that if the inhabitants of New South Wales were represented in assembly, they would more cheerfully contribute towards taxation. Above all things let the benefits intended sooner or later, come in the shape of free gifts; else, by protracting them, a great part of the grace and favour which belonged to concession would be taken away. In an able anonymous essay upon Milton, the supposition that a nation could not be ripe for liberty, was very ingeniously opposed. The author said, it reminded him of the story of the man, who sagaciously resolved never to go into the water until he had learned to swim. He, however, although struck with the whimsical ingenuity of the illustration, still maintained a different opinion. Desiring to teach his son the useful exercise of swimming, he would put him at first into shallow water, and give him an opportunity of acquiring the art by degrees. In the same manner would he impart constitutional privileges to the colony. It would be judicious policy to initiate them into the system of perfect civil liberty as early as possible, in order to prevent hereafter such a shock to their feelings and habitual opinions, as its sudden introduction must necessarily produce.
On the first resolution being put,
Mr. Huskissonsaid, he would offer a few observations in support of the measure which had been originally proposed. It had not been framed without a careful investigation into the circumstances of the
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colony, and the right hon. gentleman had done him but justice in saying, that he had kept in mind the importance of not forming any regulation which would prevent the gradual introduction into that country of all the institutions which were so beneficial in this. He wished to see the population of New South Wales in the perfect enjoyment of the advantages resulting from trial by jury, and an elective assembly, on the same principle as that which was so successful in its operation in England. But the question was, whether they could at present be so introduced, under all the peculiar circumstances now attendant on the state of society in that colony? He thought not. There was, in fact, little difference between the proposition of the right hon. gentleman and his own. The one wished for the immediate introduction of trial by jury, giving the governor a qualifying power of suspending it in any local district, according to his discretion. The other proposed, that it should be suspended for the present, but gave a power to the governor gradually to extend the system, as circumstances might admit of it. He also intended to move an amendment, "that in all civil cases the supreme court should have a discretionary power to grant trial by jury, if the parties were not averse to it." If the right hon. member had made inquiry into the state of the population, he would have found it quite impossible practically to introduce, at present, the forms and proceedings appertaining to jury trial, and constitutional elections for a legislative assembly. He had talked of the manner in which he would gradually accustom an innocent boy of fourteen years, brought up in a monastery, to the business of life and the usages of the world. For his part, he could not perceive any similarity whatever between such a boy and the population of New South Wales, two-thirds of which had been sent forth, not from a monastery, but from Newgate, condemned to fourteen years of punishment for their agressions against the civil and moral interests of their fellow subjects. The average of the inhabitants was one man to 20,000 acres; and society, he need scarcely add, was on a footing quite different from that of this country. There there were feuds and jealousies arising from the relative situation of freed men and masters. They could never be brought to intermix in social life, and the one class would be too often dis-

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posed, when an opportunity should present itself, to avenge former injuries and slights, which they might have received from the other. Would an Englishman, who went out to the country possessed of wealth, character and education, choose to have his life and liberty exposed to the decision of a jury, nine or ten of which were convicted criminals? He was satisfied, from the official inquiry which he had instituted, that nothing would so much tend to deter capital, and respectable members of society from finding their way to this colony as the establishment of trial by jury, in its existing condition. The species of trial now in operation there appeared to give the completest satisfaction, whatever might be its defects. There were no complaints against the administration of the law, either on the part of the chief justice, or of the population. He had no doubt but any man would prefer being tried by seven officers of honour and reputation, to risking his fate on the verdict of such persons as he had described. As the duration of the bill was to be but seven years, he gave sufficient earnest of his wish not to interfere with the future introduction of all the institutions which this country enjoyed. He was far from desirous to withhold from the colony any of the benefits to which it should be entitled. With respect to the election of a legislative council, he wished the right hon. gentleman to observe, that the present bill went a step towards imparting the privilege.—The existing government was neither arbitrary nor despotic, for there was a free press, which had a due influence and control over public affairs; all trials were held openly, and the population, on all occasions, manifested a jealousy with respect to their rights. Such being the present civil condition of the colony, he could not believe that all the constitutional customs of this country would be there forgotten in a few years, as the right hon. gentleman apprehended. The glorious institutions of England would surely not appear alien to their habits and feelings, when new settlers of wealth, intelligence, and reputation were every day removing thither, and thereby causing a constant infusion of British principles amongst the population.—It seemed to him, that the proposition now suggested would place the governor in a most invidious situation, as it would have him, at fifteen thousand miles distance, to suspend a popular privilege, which the par-
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liament of the mother country had been pleased to confer. For these reasons he should persevere in recommending the original measures to the House, with a clause empowering the governor to extend trial by jury in certain cases, and also requiring, that on the enactment of any new statute, he should make a declaration of the extent to which the British law obtained in the colony. The right hon. gentleman had expressed himself desirous of having a select committee appointed on this subject. He wished, however, to remind him, that he had also taken an interest in the state of Canada, and obtained a committee for the purpose of inquiry, That committee, notwithstanding, had not been favoured with either the counsel of the right hon. Gentleman, or the light of his countenance, as far as he could understand, from that hour to this [laughter].
Mr. D. Gilbertsaid, he had always felt a great interest in the fate of New South Wales, which he could not avoid thinking was destined to spread the British language to as wide as extent in the east, as our other colonies had carried it in the west. He was, therefore, much delighted to hear from the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last, that so much of the constitutional doctrine of the mother country ought to be infused into the government of a colony, which was rapidly rising to power and importance. He felt satisfied, from the statement of the right hon. gentleman, that in a country, where so large a proportion of the population were slaves, trial by jury could not be yet introduced with safety. He thought, however, that there might be a slight mixture of representation introduced. For that purpose he would give the new settlers a vote for the election of a representative; and he thought that by these means the colonists might gradually acquire the advantage of a representative government.
Mr. Humewas sorry that the inhabitants of this colony had been pronounced unworthy to be admitted to the privileges of the British constitution. It was said, that trial by jury should not be introduced suddenly into New South Wales. In proof of the fallacy of that position, he would instance the cases of Florida and Louisiana, into which trial by jury was introduced one week after the colonies were ceded to the United States, and its introduction rendered the inhabitants good subjects and good members of society. He

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regretted that this colony should be kept for seven years more in a state of pupilage; and that it would not be placed at once in a situation to enjoy those privileges to which it was fairly entitled.
Mr. Warburtonintimated, that when the House went into committee he should propose to leave out the clause giving suitors in the courts of justice in New South Wales, the power of appeal to the Privy Council.
Mr. Stuart Wortleyeulogised the bill, which he considered admirably adapted to carry into effect the objects it had it view. New South Wales was placed in a different situation from that of other colonies; the continual influx of a certain class of persons into that colony opposed a bar to the sudden introduction of legislative improvements, and created and maintained castes in society which were prejudicial to the interests of the colony
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, he could state, upon the authority of persons well acquainted with New South Wales, that it would be impossible to introduce either trial by jury or a legislative assembly there, under the present circumstances of the colony. He would suggest, however, that the official appointments should be published in the London Gazette, that the public might have an opportunity of judging of the character of the individuals selected to fill such situation.
Mr. H. Twisssaid, that the governor of the colony had the power of extending to the colonists the right of trial by jury, if he should deem it expedient.
Sir J. Mackintoshhere intimated that he should not press his amendments—They were accordingly put and negatived.