Commons Sitting of 9 June 1828

RELATIONS WITH PORTUGAL.
Mr. E. Davenportrequested the attention of the House upon a subject of great public interest, and upon which he might or
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might not find it necessary to take some ulterior step, according to the answer he might receive from the Secretary of State. The House was aware, that for some time past the accounts from Portugal had been of a very distressing character; and the feelings of disgust which they had excited had not been diminished by the recollection that that country, beyond all others in Europe, had been influenced by British councils. The case seemed briefly to be this:—Some three years ago, a prince, known only by the precocity of his crimes, who, before he had reached the years of manhood, was guilty of one of the most atrocious murders ever recorded; and who had succeeded in imprisoning his father, and had nearly usurped his power, was sent to expiate these offences, and to study the arts of constitutional government under that able master, that tried and assured friend of free institutions, prince Metternich, that celebrated diplomatist, who, to other advantages, added that of the intimate friendship of his majesty's present Secretary for Foreign Affairs. As soon as his education was judged to be complete—he meant, of course, that of the prince, not the minister—he was invited to assume the government of his native country, and to preside over that free constitution, which, to say the very least of it, was brought to Lisbon by the hand of a British minister, now high in his majesty's confidence. Before, however, he was allowed to quit Vienna, he was understood to have given the most unequivocal pledges of allegiance to his sovereign and to the new system he had established, to the courts of London, Vienna, Paris, Madrid, and Rio Janeiro; and, to make his regeneration still more evident, and perhaps to obtain letters of pratique as to the soundness of his mind, he took England in his road, and enjoyed the rare advantage of passing some days in the society of the constitutional king of these realms. Soon after reaching Portugal he took the oaths to the constitution; but scarcely was that ceremony concluded, when, with a perfidy without example in modern times, and which would have done justice to the most celebrated models of antiquity, he threw off the mask, dissolved the Cortes, the only organ of the constitution, and set on foot a rigorous persecution against all who were supposed favourable to that new order of things, which he had just sworn to maintain. The consequences were dismay

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and confusion, without parallel since the days of the French Revolution; the unhappy constitutionalists flying to the Tagus to seek an asylum in any ship destined to any port, so that they might escape the fangs of that apostolical Nero; and this moment of horror and agony was, he grieved to say, the one of all others selected for withdrawing the British troops: even the forts on the Tagus were surrendered: and among others the Bugio, which was the key to Lisbon, was given up, and turned into a state dungeon. Now he begged to be distinctly understood as being no advocate of war. Nothing he had said had any such tendency; it was the want of a vigorous, humane, and generous policy which he lamented; and he must ever think that the removing of troops at so terrible a moment, and thus for the sake of a few paltry pounds compromising millions - worth of national honour, was as inconsistent with sound policy, as it was with the humanity of the British character. It left behind it the appearance of a cold-blooded, unfeeling, transaction; and this feeling was not diminished by a report, that an officer of high rank, holding a lucrative but useless office, had held language here, and written letters to persons in Don Miguel's confidence, urging them to persevere; and thus tending to cast imputations of treachery, which it was quite impossible to believe could have any foundation. Now the information he would ask, was, first on what conditions, and in trust for whom, were the forts in the Tagus surrendered?—what steps were taken previous to their surrender, to obtain payment of the money due to us for the troops?—and lastly, in what relation do we now stand with the Portuguese government?—Were we bound to support the usurper, or were we not rather bound to use our influence against him, and in favour of our ally?
Mr. Secretary Peelregretted that the hon. gentleman had not confined himself to a mere statement of the questions which he intended to ask, instead of having introduced a mass of observations and comments. He would answer the hon. gentleman's three questions in a plain and distinct manner. In answer to the first question, as to the forts given up, he had to state, that before the arrival of Don Miguel, it was determined by the British government—all fear of the invasion of Portugal having been removed—that the
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British troops should be withdrawn. And he begged to remind the House, that those troops were sent to Portugal, in fulfilment of an ancient treaty, for the purpose of preventing invasion. They were not sent to that country to support any form of government. The time had arrived when the apprehended danger was at an end, and those troops were, of course, withdrawn; and as a necessary consequence of that step, the evacuation of these forts took place. He thought the hon. member must agree with him, that nothing could be more contrary to the principle on which that expedition was sent to the shores of Portugal, than to keep those troops there when all idea of invasion had ceased. The hon. gentleman then asked him, whether this government expected payment of the sum due from Portugal to Great Britain, on the condition of the forts being given up? In answer to that, he had only to say, that he should be sorry if England had set so bad an example before Europe, as to keep those fortresses until payment of that debt was effected. The original condition remained in full force, as to the payment of that debt. The sum due was not half a million of money; it amounted to about 160,000 l. For that sum this country had a right to prefer a claim; but he could not think, that, under any circumstances, it would have been prudent for Great Britain to keep possession of those forts until that debt was liquidated. With respect to the third question,—namely, "what is the state of the relations at present subsisting between this country and Portugal?" he had to inform the hon. gentleman, that, at this moment, the political functions of the English Ambassador at Lisbon were suspended. The instructions which had been sent to the British Ambassador, were, he conceived, sufficiently manifested by this fact. As some allusion had been made by the hon. gentleman with respect to the education of Don Miguel at Vienna, he wished to state, that the Ambassador of Austria at Lisbon had acted entirely in concurrence with the sentiments of the English government. He believed that the course taken by the Court of Austria, and by the Austrian Ambassador, was precisely the same as that pursued by the British Court. The hon. gentleman had made a most serious charge against an individual who had not an opportunity to defend himself. Now, he must say, that

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when hon. gentlemen preferred accusations of that kind against any person, whatever his rank or situation, they ought to weigh, with scrupulous exactness, the evidence on which charges of so grave a nature were founded. No gentleman ought lightly to make a charge of murder in the British senate, when the person thus assailed had no opportunity of defending himself.
Sir J. Macintoshsaid, he had heard with great satisfaction the declaration of the right hon. gentleman, that the British government, as well as the other governments of Europe, had suspended all diplomatic intercourse with the present rulers of Portugal. Such a suspension amounted to a declaration, that the present chief of that country was a rebel and an usurper, and to an approbation of the noble efforts of those faithful Portuguese, who had taken up arms against that atrocious usurpation, in defence of the cause of legitimate authority and constitutional liberty. He fervently prayed for the success of that glorious resistance pronounced to be lawful by the unanimous voice of Europe. Whatever might he his opinion about the moment chosen for our evacuation of Portugal, he rejoiced, on one account, that it had occurred so early. We had been told in the last and present year, that the Portuguese people were enamoured of servitude; that they loved even the despotism of Don Miguel; that England had imposed a constitution on them, and crammed it down their throats. The people of Portugal had now belied those assertions. Since the departure of the British army, they had risen to assert their liberty, to destroy tyranny, to overthrow usurpation, and to maintain the authority of their lawful prince. Even, if fortune should not crown their efforts, (which, God forbid), they had done enough to vindicate their character, and to justify that interposition of England, which was indeed no more than the bare observance of treaties, but which seemed to be obnoxious to many in this country, merely because that observance incidentally led us to give countenance and help to attempts made by a monarch to give liberty to his subjects. Events seemed as if they had been disposed for the express purpose of illustrating the impartial fidelity with which England had observed her engagements to Portugal.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, he wished to
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repair an accidental omission. Of course he could know nothing of the supposed letters; he could not say whether such letters were or were not written; but this he could state most explicitly, that no individual had any authority to speak the opinion of the British government except the British Ambassador. He would add further, that if any person supposed that government viewed the conduct lately pursued in Portugal with any feelings other than those manifested by the suspension of the British Ambassador's functions, he entirely misconceived what was felt by the government generally, and by every individual of which it was composed.
Mr. E. Davenportsaid, there was not an individual acquainted with the affairs of Portugal, who entertained the slightest doubt of the charge which he had made in the early part of his observations. Lord Liverpool had stated to a friend of his, that he had not a doubt of the fact.

SUGAR DUTIES.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of Ways and Means,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he rose for the purpose of moving for the continuance of the existing Duties on Sugar for another year. During the early part of the session, attempts had been repeatedly made to revise the existing law, and to make some arrangement, with respect to the sugar duties, which would be more satisfactory to all the parties concerned. It was unnecessary for him to enter into the details of the various plans which were proposed to effect this object, since none of them had been found to conciliate the approbation of those for whose benefit they were intended, and, as against all of them substantial objections might be urged. To some of them he was not indisposed to give his support; but, as they went to produce a material reduction of duty, and as none of the arrangements held out the slightest expectation of repairing, until a distant period, the great loss which the revenue was likely to sustain, under these circumstances, he had deemed it most prudent to propose the continuance of those duties for another session. The House must be aware of the large revenue derived from sugar, and could not but feel, that under circumstances even of the most favourable nature for that purpose, it; was a commodity which could not be smug-

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gled. In considering the duty, therefore, they had no allowance to make for a probable increase of smuggling. The average annual sum paid for duties on sugar, amounted to 4,500,000 l.; and, he was sure, that whatever opinions might be entertained by individuals, as to the amount of protection granted to one species of sugar over another, still those opinions, when the question was practically considered, must be overcome by the recollection, that any person holding his situation ought not lightly to hazard a large amount of duties, which had been long continued, and was easily enforced and collected.
Mr. C. Grantsaid, he had given his best attention to the subject, for the purpose of correcting the anomalies of the system, and giving satisfaction to all parties. A proposition was made last year by those interested in the question, the nature of which was already before the public. He should abstain from entering into the details of that plan, because when it became his duty to meet the refiners, and other parties who had interest in it, he found, after maturely considering the subject, that it was his duty to reject what was proffered. He followed up that by another proposition, in some respects similar to that to which he had referred, but in others extremely different. In that plan he did not contemplate the restoration of bounties, as they had existed a few years before. After giving much consideration to the subject, he had arrived at the conclusion, that the only efficient plan would be one founded on the principle of a reduction of duty. The plan which he had at that time considered, he did not communicate either to the East or West India interest. He had abstained from making that communication, until the sanction of government was obtained. He therefore had proposed a reduction to the amount of 7s. per cwt; that was, from 27 s. to 20 s. on West-India sugar. His next proposition was, that the duty on East-India sugars should be lowered 5s., and that foreign sugars should be admitted at a duty of 28 s., and be bonded at a much lower rate. This proposition was favourably considered by his right hon. friend, and other members of the government.—He knew there were many persons who would object to the proposition he had adverted to, on the ground of its not being a sufficient reduction; but, under existing circumstances, he could not see how a greater
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reduction could be made. He was convinced that a reduction of the duties would tend to increase the consumption. He had seen a calculation which made the quantity of sugar consumed in this country amount to twenty-two pounds for each person in the year. But this must be extremely inaccurate, for, in our very workhouses, the quantity was thirty-four pounds a head; and in private houses, the allowance was fifty-two pounds. This was a proof that nothing but a high duty checked the consumption of sugar. But, if this calculation were wrong as far as England was concerned, it was perfectly ridiculous with respect to Ireland. Three pounds was the quantity allowed, by the calculation, to each individual in that country. He was not prepared to propose that the duties on East and West Indian sugar should be equalized, but in every other article he thought there should be a difference between East and West Indian produce. By a bill which he had prepared, and meant to bring in after the recess, but which he supposed either his right hon. friend, the Vice-president of the Board of Trade, or the great unknown, who was not yet appointed, would now bring before the House—he had intended to put this principle in practice—to admit East-India cotton as freely as West-Indian, and indeed to retain no exception but the articles of sugar and coffee.—He thought that, in regard to East and West India produce, the parties interested were equally mistaken. If he were called upon to give advice to the West-Indian proprietors, he would tell them, that it was well to forego a distinction, which only tended to keep alive animosity, and was a perpetual theme of mutual accusation and invective. He did not think that it would affect the profit of the West-Indian proprietor; but even if it did, the benefit which would arise from the removal of this distinction would amply compensate for a loss which would be very trifling. Some of the refiners had suffered deeply from the present system. Sugar from Cuba and Brazils would have found its way to the emporium of this country, if it had not been for the exclusive system. Cuba produced ninety thousand and the Brazils sixty thousand tons. To carry the cargoes of such countries would have conferred a benefit on our shipping. If he were asked, whether a departure from the system would not be productive of a re-

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duction in the revenue, he would reply, that it appeared to him that it would cause but a little decrease in the revenue that year, and that there would be an augmentation of revenue in every other year. In his opinion, a plan might be formed on the basis of reduction of duty, which would be found beneficial to the West-Indian grower, and to the East-Indian produce, which would protect the refiner, and prove advantageous to the shipping interest of the country.
Mr. Whitmoresaid, he could not think that there ought to be any difference between the duties on East and West Indian sugar. He would ask why, in two possessions belonging to the same country, there should be any such difference? As to the prescriptive right of the West-India proprietors, it would be recollected, that the present duties were settled in 1815, not by a discussion in that House, but by the parties interested. The question must stand upon justice, and not upon prescriptive rights. It had been often said, that sugar could not be produced in any part of our possessions in the East Indies. Bishop Heber, alluding to the ignorance which prevailed in this country with respect to Indian affairs, said, that the assertion that no sugar was raised in India might be contradicted by the mere cockneys of Calcutta, and pointed out places in which the raising of sugar was a part of the industry of the country. The admission of sugar upon fair terms would greatly promote the trade of this country with the Indies. In 1814, the first year of the free-trade system, the exports of this country to the East Indies amounted to 1,696,000 l.; in 1826 they amounted to 4,887,000 l. Was not this a proof of the truth of his position? There was a population of eighty millions in India, who had been proved to entertain none of those prejudices which had been falsely ascribed to them, and which it had been said would prevent their purchasing our goods. Their poverty, and not their prejudices, had hitherto prevented them. He should feel it his duty to propose, that there should be no greater duty on East-Indian than on West-Indian sugar, and to take the sense of the House on the subject.
Mr. Bernalbegged the House to recollect, in considering the difference between the duties on East and West Indian produce, that no man could possess a yard of laud, in the East Indies; and, that there-
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fore, as long as the East India Charter remained in suspense, this subject could not be fairly investigated. He called upon the House to recollect that, by admitting the sugar of the Mauritius, they were conferring a benefit on the foreign slave-trader, at the expense of the negro population of our own colonies. It ought also to be recollected that, in proportion as they limited the gains and abilities of the master, in the same proportion they were likely to deteriorate the condition of the servant. It was a gross delusion to suppose that the West-India proprietors put large sums of money into their pockets, by the sugar bounties: but he had no objection to have the whole amount stated, and if it were found to be too great, let the duties be withdrawn. He contended, that the revenue would be considerably improved by the reduction of the duties on West-India sugar, which were nearly 100 per cent. He begged his hon. friend not to press his amendment to a division, but to wait until next year.
Mr. Humeexpressed his entire concurrence in the view taken of this subject by the late President of the Board of Trade. His able speech was an additional proof of the loss which the country had sustained, in being deprived of his valuable services. He trusted that the liberal principles which the right hon. gentleman had so ably supported would be followed by his successor. With respect to the sugar duties, he did hope that government would consider the propriety of not keeping them at their present amount. So far from a reduction being injurious to the revenue, it would prove highly beneficial, by the increase of consumption. This was seen in the case of the reduction of the duties on wine. He would contend, that if the nine hundred thousand pounds of sugar exported were consumed in this country, as they would be if the duties were reduced, it would more than make good the deficiency created by the reduction. The same might be said of most other necessary articles. Thus, if in the article of tea the duty were reduced 25 per cent., the consumption would be so increased, that the revenue would gain by it. The consumption of sugar depended on the price. Last year there was a deficiency in the consumption of three hundred thousand pounds, owing to the increase of price. He contended, that an equalization of the duties on East and West India sugars would be

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a nullity; for the price would be regulated by the prices at Hamburgh. The price of what remained in this country would depend on the amount exported. He saw no reason why all foreign sugars should not be admitted; for the price here would depend on the price abroad. We should imitate the practice of the Dutch, who understood the principles of commerce as well as any nation, but never made any difference in the duties on East and West India sugars. If proper encouragement were given to East-India sugars, we should have a supply from thence equal to the demand; but at present that supply was limited, because no market was opened for it here. They were bound in justice to reduce the duties on West-India sugars, which had been increased from time to time, on the understanding- that they should be reduced at the end of the war; and there was the less excuse, as the observance of good faith in this instance would advance the interest of the country.
Mr. J. Stewartsaid, that if encouragement was given to the East-India sugar-trade, we should have a supply to any amount that might be required, and have a mart opened for our staple commodities. The demand for some of these, such as copper and lead, in India was scarcely worth mentioning; because they had nothing to return but articles which we would not take. The improvements in our cotton trade had already stopped every loom in India; and it was not fair that we should shut them out from a mart for the only staple they could give us. Under these circumstances, he would support the amendment.
Mr. F. Buxtonexpressed his surprise, that any hon. member should wish for the introduction of foreign sugar. If honourable members knew the horrors of slavery connected with its produce, they could not give it any encouragement. He considered that we were in some degree pledged against any such encouragement. At the Congress of Vienna, it was agreed, by those nations favourable to the abolition of the slave-trade, that if France, Spain, and Portugal continued that traffic, their sugars would not be received. It was a mistake to suppose that the comforts of the slave-population depended on the high price of sugar; for it was proved by experience, that in proportion as sugar was cultivated, the condition of the slave was rendered worse, and vice versa. As to competition
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betweeen East and West India sugars, it was idle to talk of their coming into the market on similar terms. The East-India sugar was shut out from the English market, and had only its chance of the foreign market.
Mr. Brightwas glad that ministers considered themselves as a new government, and took time to consider this question. The wide distinction between the West and the East Indies was, that the West Indies were cultivated by British capital. This country had monopolized the supply of stores to the West Indies, by preventing the direct supply from America; the West Indies, therefore, had a peculiar claim on this country. Besides, the West Indians had a pledge, that the bounty on the exportation of sugars should be augmented in proportion to the duty on importation. The East Indies stood on a very different footing. He hoped the government would not be led away by idle theories, but would deal with the question like practical statesmen.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, he must explicitly deny, that any of the alterations to which allusions had been made, had taken place, without proper deliberation as to their consequences upon our colonial relations. He concurred in the proposed postponement because he knew that the chancellor of the Exchequer had devoted himself to the consideration of the subject, and had carefully investigated all its bearings upon the West-India interest, the shipping interest, and, above all, the interests of the great bulk of the consumers of sugar in this country. If it could be afforded at a cheaper rate to those whose habits had rendered it one of their most essential commodities, it was desirable it should be so. He was glad that his right hon. friend had that night delivered his able view of this question; because it was on his part, as well as on that of his right hon. friend, a redemption of their promise of last year, to introduce this subject for consideration, with regard to the whole of the important interests connected with it. If it were possible to take off between one third and one fourth of the duty on sugar, the result might prove a great relief to the West-India planter, in the increased consumption which it would create, a new demand would be induced, and the pressure upon the old of the new markets of Berbice, Demerara, and the coast of Guiana would be relieved. When he looked at the present state of affairs,

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he was not sorry for this postponement; for, in the state of the public revenue, with a finance committee sitting, it was right that his hon. friend should not, before he saw what was to be his income and expenditure, surrender a revenue amounting to near one million sterling. Although he was sanguine that the alteration would not diminish the revenue, but increase it, by augmenting the consumption, still, as they were dealing with a revenue of four or five millions, it was prudent to let the matter stand over for another year. The hon. member for Rochester had argued the question of East-India sugars fairly, when he candidly admitted, that he was not one of those who viewed with alarm the effect of the admission of a certain portion of East-India sugars into this country. Indeed, he believed, that a limited quantity of the finer East-India sugar might be safely admitted into the market. So long as the East Indies remained in its present state as to colonization, any great increase of supply was not to be apprehended. But he agreed, that there was a ground of distinction between the East and the West Indies, and that they ought to be cautious how they dealt with the vested interests of the West-India capitalists. With respect to the Mauritius sugar, it should be recollected, that this country was bound by the treaty, by which it was surrendered, to admit its sugars on the same terms as those of its own colonies. As to the encouragement of the sugars of foreign colonies, nothing more was intended than to allow them to be brought here to be refined, whereas, they had before been carried to different places on the continent for that purpose, whereby the British refiner was deprived of a lucrative trade.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it would not become him, after the statements of his right hon. friends, to say much more than that he concurred in the general tenor of their observations. He was sensible of the great importance of this question in all its bearings: he admitted, that an increased consumption would make up for a diminished duty, still he was bound to pause before he risked the loss of a million of his means. He was satisfied that general benefit would ensue from the postponement of this question for another year.
Mr. Whitmoreproposed as an amendment, that after the resolution declaratory
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of the expediency of continuing the duties for another year, should be added the words—"save and except the duties on sugars imported from the East Indies." The amendment was withdrawn, and the original resolution agreed to.