Commons Sitting of 19 March 1827

SUPPLY OF WATER TO THE METROPOLIS.
Sir Francis Burdettgave notice, that, shortly after the Easter recess, it was his intention to bring forward a motion regarding the present state of the Water Companies of the Metropolis.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.
Mr. Abercrombypresented a petition from the Catholics of Abbeyside, in favour of Catholic Emancipation. The hon. member took that opportunity of expressing his regret at the resolution which the House had lately come to on this subject. The news of that vote had created the greatest dismay in Ireland, and had altogether disheartened the friends to the tranquillity of that- unhappy country; because it precluded them from any longer holding out the hope that the period would ever arrive when the British parliament would consent to do justice to the ill-treated population of Ireland. This unhappy event had occurred at a peculiarly unfortunate time; when Ireland was in a state of the greatest distress; when the little employment which her poor had ever had was considerably diminished; when the horrors of famine stared a large part of the population in the face; when the events of the late election had not only, as had been stated in that House, broken the connexion between landlord and tenant in Ireland, but had shaken the, connexion between the two countries to the very centre. At such a moment, to divest the friends of England of power, and to place that power in the hands of those who cherished no attachment to us, was most alarming. By their late decision, the English parliament had caused the question of the Union to be re-opened, and re-discussed, under circumstances of the most unfavourable nature. What the result might be it was impossible to foresee. For himself, he owned, that he should rejoice if even the present session of parliament were to pass without the

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state of Ireland being forced upon the consideration of parliament under circumstances which, while they would be painful to the minority, would be most discreditable to the majority in the late decision.

EDUCATION OF THE POOR IN IRELAND.
Mr. James Grattanentreated the attention of the House for a few moments, while he stated the substance of a Petition with which he had been intrusted, from the Roman Catholic Bishops of Ireland, on the subject of Education in that country. The Petition set forth, that the Roman Catholic population of Ireland had not the benefit of the annual grants made by parliament, and that a system of proselytism was carried on by means of these grants. It was a delusion to vote money to Protestant societies for the education of the Catholic poor of Ireland, since it was not fairly applied to any such purpose. If the real object was the improvement of the moral and intellectual condition of the lower orders in the sister kingdom, it would be far better not to place the sums devoted to such an undertaking in the hands of Protestant societies, but under the management of a board, or under the superintendence of the existing commissioners upon education, they being accountable to parliament for the expenditure. Such a course would give general satisfaction. He did not mean to contend that any sum, great or small, should be placed under the control of the Roman Catholics only, for the education of their poor, but societies which only promoted ill blood, jealousy, and animosity, ought to be got rid of as soon as possible. He begged to call the attention of the House to the progress made in the work of education in the last twenty years. In 1806, a commission had been appointed to make inquiries on the subject of education, from which thirteen reports had proceeded. It was understood, that there was to be no religious interference, and the commissioners went through the charter schools, and many others of private foundation. The hon. gentleman complained that these commissioners had not bestowed any animadversions upon the mode in which the charter schools were conducted; but, on the contrary, had recommended their continuance. The whole sum granted during the last ninety years was 1,600,000 l.; and, for many years, 41,000 l. had been annually voted for establishments
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universally condemned by the board of 1824. This commission had been superseded by that now subsisting, to which he thought the thanks of the country were due. Their second report stated the number of schools existing, as not less than 11,000, by which 560,000 children were educated. He felt called upon to say a few words regarding the Kildare Institution, which was the cause of many animosities now prevailing in Ireland, and which had become so extensive as to threaten serious consequences. Last year it had spent in buildings alone 8,000 l. of the money granted by parliament. He had said, in a former session, that it would be wiser to place the money in the hands of responsible commissioners; and the objection to this suggestion was, that it would interfere with private subscriptions. It was worth while, then, to inquire, to what those private subscriptions had amounted. Last year they were 180 l.; and the salary of the collector swallowed up 170 l. of the money. He thought he could show, that since the Union, not less than 120,000 l. had been annually and unprofitably expended. Many did not scruple to avow, that the object of the principal institution was not to educate, but to Protestantize the people of Ireland, as far as it was possible to effect that purpose. If public money was granted, let it be granted fairly; and it was but due to the people of Great Britain to take care that it was not misappropriated. The hon. member concluded by moving for leave to bring up the petition.
Mr. Humesaid, that the petition was of the highest importance, recollecting the repeated discussions, during the last ten years, upon education in Ireland. After the House had so liberally granted money for the education of the poor of that country, it was quite preposterous that it should be placed in the hands of individuals, to be applied, not to the instruction of the children of the poor Catholics, but to that of the comparatively rich Protestants. It was impossible to force education on the lower orders of Ireland; especially when the money for that purpose was placed in the hands of individuals, who, the Catholic clergy believed, had views of proselytism. Suspicions of this kind had been entertained for some years, and they were now most materially fortified. It was worse than a waste of the public money, to vote it for a good pur-

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pose, and to allow it to be perverted to a bad one. No less than 32,000 l. had been granted to the Kildare-street Society; but instead of spending it for the benefit of the Catholic population, it had been employed in sowing heart-burnings and dissention. The Catholic clergy naturally protested against allowing children to attend any of the establishments where there was a chance that attempts would be made to convert them. Their convictions were strong, and nothing could overcome their repugnance. If the House was anxious to see the work of education proceed successfully in Ireland, it could only be accomplished by pursuing a plan consonant with the wishes and scruples of the Catholic clergy. He, therefore, entreated the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who was so well acquainted with Ireland, and who professed to take so much interest on the subject of education, not to permit the money to be placed in the hands of those with whom the Catholic clergy would not act. The fair mode would be, to place one sum in the hands of the Protestants, and a larger amount, with the same object, in the hands of the Roman Catholics. The subject was one of the highest importance, under existing circumstances.
Mr. H. Grattansaid, he was in possession of letters establishing the fact, that there existed a fixed determination, to neglect no means of converting the rising generation to Protestantism. He felt a strong conviction on this point from what had been said elsewhere regarding a new glorious Reformation. If England and Ireland were to go on together—and he hoped the unfortunate measures of ministers would not render it doubtful—the English people and the English cabinet must make up their minds to allow the great body of the Irish people to remain Catholics. Never had a greater imposition been practised upon credulity than to pretend that this new reformation had a chance of being successful. If persevered in, it must end in disunion and calamity. Nothing could be more alarming than the late accounts from Ireland. Letters from Dublin represented, that a sort of religious crusade had already commenced; and that, while in the churches the most vehement abuse was heard of the Roman Catholic faith, the Roman Catholic priests retaliated in their chapels by attacks equally violent upon the Protestant tenets.
Mr. J. Smithbegged to state it as his opinion, that, if a true reformation of the Roman Catholics was to be effected in the hasty manner pretended by many, all history was a lie, and all deductions from it utterly without foundation. The last four or five hundred years afforded no precedent to show that vehement abuse, and measures of severity, had gained a single sincere proselyte. Conciliation and kindness might do much; but the course now pursued must proceed in discord, and, perhaps, end in actual violence. No man would go further than himself to promote education; but not in the way now adopted by the dominant party in Ireland. The question would come properly before the House when the annual vote for the Kildare-street Society was introduced; but he could not help stating, that some of the reports upon the table contained instances of the most shocking barbarity; and that not a single shilling ought to have been granted, until measures were taken to put a period to such enormities. He heartily concurred in the object of the petition; and he hoped that the good sense of the right hon. Secretary for Ireland would induce him to discourage a course so impolitic and offensive.
Mr. Secretary Peelthought he could satisfy the hon. member who spoke last, that after the manifestation of opinion, in which he had not shrunk from declaring his acquiescence, the course pursued by the Irish government was the only one that could have been taken. They selected certain aggravated cases pointed out in the reports, and the law officers of the Crown were directed to prosecute: the cases were sent to a jury in the ordinary manner, but the jury had declined to convict. The Irish government had done its duty; for, although it was apprehended that such might be the result, it was thought right that no means of obtaining punishment should be omitted. As to education generally, he had stated his opinions fully upon the subject, when he was in Ireland. At that period, a proposal had been made to him on the subject, by several persons, to whom he had at once declared, that it was extremely desirable, in his opinion, to diffuse the benefits of education as generally throughout Ireland as possible, without exciting any alarm or jealousy, upon the grounds of religion. In consequence of this proposal, and of the views which he had expressed upon the subject,

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a school had been formed, comprised of every sect without distinction, and a sum had been voted for its support by parliament. It. had always been his wish that the children of Roman Catholic, and of Protestant parents, should receive their education together. It did appear to him; to be of immense importance, that they; should receive their education in the same school, and that from the period of their earliest infancy a line of demarcation should not be drawn between them. It was his wish that education should be given generally and fairly; that both parties should conform to one common plan; that they should receive their instruction from one common source; and that, on Sundays, each sect should imbibe their religious precepts and form of faith from teachers of their respective communions. There were many Roman Catholic children educating at these schools by Roman Catholic masters; and, if any undue attempts were made to convert such children, it was contrary to the original intention and design of the establishment. A system of imparting religious instruction generally, without reference to sects, had been under the consideration of the Roman Catholic prelates, and the prelates of the Church of England. It was the design, that the children should, on Sundays, receive their religious education from the pastors of their respective faiths. He should be extremely sorry to hear that it had been necessary to abandon these schools from any cause whatever.
Mr. Abercrombysaid, that nothing could be more desirable than the practical application of those principles which the right hon. gentleman had stated. The: wish that Protestant and Roman Catholic children should be educated under the; same establishment, without any reference to the speculative religious opinions of their respective churches, was most excellent, was most wise and benevolent. He spoke from extensive experience when he declared, that the most serious changes had taken place in Ireland, in consequence of the increased spirit of conflicting parties, and which rendered those sound, virtuous, and rational principles wholly inapplicable to that country, divided and wretched as she was. It was education alone that could raise Ireland from her low and helpless condition, and enable her to assume her rank among nations. The Catholic children would, of course, be
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withdrawn from these schools, unless they could be sent with a confidence, that their religious opinions would not be undermined; and it would be otherwise utterly hopeless to act upon the principles laid down by the right hon. Secretary of State.
Sir John Newportsaid, that whenever the estimates for the Kildare-street Society were brought forward, he would oppose this grant, with a hope of directing its better application.
Sir W. Plunkettsaid, he did not wish to prolong a discussion which would be more properly considered by the House, when the estimates, or the report of the committee of inquiry, were brought forward. He was, however, induced to offer a few remarks, in consequence of what had fallen from his learned friend the member for Calne. He perfectly concurred in what, indeed, no man could dissent from; namely, that it was most desirable to establish throughout Ireland a system of common education. The principle was equally true, that, having a system of common education, it should rest upon some religious basis; for any system of education, which was not founded upon such a basis, was always dangerous. The desideratum, therefore, was a common religious instruction, which each party might receive, without danger or offence to the peculiarities of their faith. Such a plan of proceeding had been seriously sought after by various persons. They had endeavoured to put aside all sources of religious jealousies and disputes: so that every class might frequent the schools for one common and general benefit. This had been recommended by gentlemen of conscience and of the most liberal feelings. But his hon. and learned friend had stated, that the hopes held out of carrying this system into effect had proved delusive. He could not, however, by any means agree with him, or go the length of saying that the project had failed. It was necessary to state, that a system had been formed of general religious instruction, to be delivered to the pupils in common and without distinction. The plan would necessarily exclude all but those fundamental and general principles nearly common to all sects. It was meant to contain extracts from the Bible, including so much of the sacred volume as to constitute an epitome, in which nothing essential should be omitted. He believed

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that this scheme of instruction had been approved by the Roman Catholic bishops of Ireland, as one that could be acted upon with perfect safety by their flocks, As far as they were concerned there was no objection. Notwithstanding the unhappy state of the country, which he regretted as much as any man, the scheme had been acceded to by the Roman Catholic clergy; and nothing was wanting to its completion but the acceptance of it by the heads of the Protestant church. He could not believe that the Protestant prelates were unfavourable to so great a national good, or that they were not anxious to promote such a public benefit. He entertained a hope, that a common principle of religious instruction might be devised, and that the children of Ireland would not be prevented from receiving the benefits of education.
Mr. Secretary Peelmerely wished to say, that he thought the subject of so much importance, that he wished no misunderstanding to go forth, to the effect of creating an impression that any part of the system was to make proselytes. Upon this subject he had only to refer to a Report of the commission appointed for this special purpose—in consequence of an address of that House. In this commission were to be found the names of Mr. Frankland Lewis, Mr. Grant, Mr. Leslie Foster, Mr. Blake, and other gentlemen of intelligence and honour, who embraced either side of the question. The commissioners had entered into the system of the Kildare-street Society referred to in the present debate. The question had been proposed to the commission, Whether the system or practice of the Kildare-street Society was or was not, to make converts of the Roman Catholics to Protestantism? The commissioners had reported that "No fact has come to our knowledge to lead us to doubt their own repeated disclaimers of having any such intention." Mr. Donelan had declared, that if any such design had been entertained by the Society, he would not have acted as the inspector of the schools, and that he had performed that duty, because he was convinced that the association had no intention of pursuing any system of proselytism. They had even protected Roman Catholic children as far as was consistent with their laws. The schoolmaster and mistress of the Society's Model School at Dublin were Roman Catholics. The charges
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against the Kildare-street Society were grossly exaggerated. He could only say, that if that society had ever attempted a system of proselytism, it had greatly departed from its original principles, and from the designs for which it was established. As to the Roman Catholic priests interrupting these schools, it was not fair to draw, from one or two individuals, an inference prejudicial to the Roman Catholic clergy in general. Out of sixty Roman Catholic clergymen, fifty-three had approved of the school system, and had offered to give it every facility in their respective districts.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he thought that the Society was, from its principles, utterly disqualified to undertake the care of the education of children in Ireland. He made this assertion with sincerity; but at the same time with much reluctance. The hon. member for Waterford had declared his intention of moving, that the subject of education in Ireland should be referred to a select committee. He trusted that the House would then indulge him with a patient hearing; for he was convinced that there were no means of acquiring any moral influence over the people of Ireland, but by establishments of public education. By the present system, boys in early life would be told, when they associated at school, that no difference existed between them, on account of their religious opinions; but when they arrived at the age when the passions were strong, they would be told, that a great difference did exist, and that those who were Catholics must go on one side as a disqualified, proscribed race. A system of divided education was certainly a great evil; but it was the necessary consequence of a divided people, and of divided institutions.
Colonel Trenchtrusted that the Kildare-street Society were not lending themselves to any system of proselytism. He believed that the mistaken zeal of those benevolent persons who endeavoured to make proselytes was the great impediment to the diffusion of education, upon which mainly depended the welfare of the country. The Roman Catholic priests, who were favourably disposed to public instruction, had often been controlled by their bishops; and those bishops had been guided by orders from the pope.
Ordered to lie on the table.

SHIPPING INTEREST — NAVIGATION LAWS.
Mr. Baring,on rising to present a Petition from the Ship-owners of the City of London, observed, that the subject of this Petition—the changes that had lately been made in the Navigation Laws of this country—was one of vital importance to the nation, as there was great reason to fear that if, by any accident or false legislation, this country suffered other nations in this respect to get the start of her, it would be exceedingly difficult, if not altogether impossible, to regain her position. He took that opportunity, therefore, of asking the vice-president of the Board of Trade, whether it was the intention of government to grant a committee of inquiry upon this subject? He felt himself perfectly unprejudiced; as he acknowledged that he had been one of those who had called for the alterations, respecting which he had since seen some reason to change his mind. He entirely concurred in a sentiment delivered by his right hon. friend, in the very eloquent speech with which he had introduced the bills on this subject, that in carrying into effect experiments founded on untried theories, the best and wisest men might be led into mistakes. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to express his conviction, that some inquiry was necessary into the state of distress which prevailed among those engaged in the shipping trade, for the purpose of ascertaining whether that distress really proceeded from the measures which had been adopted, or whether it was not the consequence of that general stagnation of trade which had, more or less, affected all the other branches of national industry. If it could be really proved before a committee, that the present state of the shipping trade resulted from the measures which had been adopted by his majesty's government, and that if those measures were persisted in, the distress must go on increasing, then it was obvious, that, unless they turned back from the course which they had been pursuing, it would be impossible for this country to compete with foreigners, cither in the shipping or carrying trade. After several other observations, which were delivered in too low a tone to reach the gallery, the hon. gentleman concluded by expressing his conviction, that it had been proved beyond contradiction, that ships built in Great Britain cost just as much again as those built in Germany; in short, that every thing necessary to send a ship to sea, cost double
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what it could be purchased for in that country. Under these circumstances, he certainly did think that some inquiry by a committee ought to take place as soon as possible. Nothing could be more censurable than the conduct of government with respect to that great and important question. The apathy which they had displayed for the last two or three weeks, upon that and almost every other subject, was to him a matter of astonishment. How the country was to go on, if it could be proved that it was not able to support itself as a maritime power, he was unable to understand; and he did hope that the House would press the subject upon the immediate attention of government. They seemed, indeed, to be at a stand-still for some time, on account of the want of a prime minister; and he hoped, if something was not done, and done speedily, to give an energy to the proceedings or the government, that some independent gentleman would move an address to the Throne [hear!], for the purpose of ascertaining what course was intended to be pursued, and hastening the appointment of those men who were to regulate the proceedings of the government [hear].
Mr. C. Grantbegged not to be supposed to assent to the propositions of the hon. member, if he abstained from following him through the various subjects he had touched upon. All he rose to say was, that his right hon. friend, the President of the Board of Trade, was exceedingly anxious to take the earliest opportunity which his health would allow of, to bring the subject under the consideration of the House. He begged, at the same time, not to be understood as pledging his right hon. friend to adopt any particular course. He was not authorised to make any declaration on that subject by his right hon. friend. He merely begged to be understood as declaring, that he would take the earliest opportunity of putting the House in possession of the views of his majesty's government upon the whole question connected with the Shipping interest of the country.
General Gascoyne,after having postponed his motion so frequently, in order to have the opportunity of hearing the sentiments of his right hon. colleague (Mr. Huskisson) upon the great question which it involved, felt strong reluctance to bring it forward in his absence. As he understood, however, that his right hon. colleague

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was most anxious to be present, he thought, under the present circumstances, that it would be most beneficial to all parties if he postponed the motion of which he had given notice, until after the Easter recess. He now begged leave to give notice, that he would bring the state of the Shipping-trade under the consideration of the House, upon the 1st of May.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonwas willing to admit, that great distress prevailed among the ship-owners; but he very much doubted whether it was in the power of parliament to afford them any relief. It was his opinion, that the alteration in the Navigation Laws, which was said to be the cause of all their distress, had not injured the ship-owners to any thing like the extent which was supposed. That distress, he feared, was but a part of the system of overtrading, which had, more or less, affected all the interests of the country. It was a matter well worth the attention of the House, that the shipping had not fallen off in number of vessels or extent of tonnage, since the alterations which were now decried as the sole cause of all their misfortunes. The shipping interest, like every other, had been affected by the late spirit of overtrading; and, although he entertained serious doubts whether any remedy could be applied by that House, he had no objection to an inquiry before a committee.
Mr. Peeldeprecated discussion at the present moment, and hoped that members would abstain from making any precipitate pledges, as to the course which they would take.
Mr. Baringsaid, of this he was convinced, that the shipping interest could not remain in its present state. Either something less should have been done, or something more should now be done. He did not know what would become of the country, if we did not maintain our commercial superiority.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, he had observed no indications of that division of opinion in the cabinet, which the hon. member for Callington stated to exist, with respect to the liberal system of commercial policy lately adopted by government. On the contrary, he had observed—and it had given him much satisfaction—that all the members of government had concurred in stating their determination to continue to act upon the liberal principles which they had avowed. He thought it right to say
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thus much, because the statement of the hon. member was calculated to give weight to the anti-liberal party, if any such existed in the government.
Sir T. Lethbridgesaid, it might be the wish of ministers, but he doubted their ability, to follow up the liberal system in all its bearings. It was with some surprise that he had listened to the observations of the hon. member for Callington that night, because he recollected that, three years ago, on presenting a petition to that House, the hon. member had called upon government to carry into execution those very principles which he now so strongly objected to [hear, hear]. For himself, he entertained the same opinion which he at that time expressed; namely, that it was impossible for this highly-taxed country to follow up the system of free trade. The distress of the ship-owners arose from this circumstance—that the protection which they formerly enjoyed against the competition of foreign shipping had been withdrawn. Nobody could desire more than himself to see the President of the Board of Trade in the House again; but he thought the question was one which ought not to be postponed on account of the absence of any individual. He trusted that the hon. general would not postpone his motion beyond next week; for he knew well the anxiety which was felt on the subject, and the vital interests which were at stake.
Sir E. Knatchbullsaid, that if the motion were postponed to the 1st of May, the appointment of a committee at that period would be useless, so far as regarded the present session.
Mr. Baringsaid, that the question of time was of great importance, and for that reason he was desirous of learning from the vice-president of the Board of Trade, whether ministers intended to oppose the appointment of a committee. If ministers were resolved not to grant a committee, it did not much matter when the motion was made; but if the contrary was the case, it ought to be brought forward immediately. He recommended ministers to turn the matter in their minds, and to state their decision, not that night, but to-morrow or the next day. If that decision should be in favour of the appointment of a committee, it might be immediately nominated, and the subject could then be calmly and dispassionately investigated.
General Gascoyneobserved, that if

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ministers intended to accede to his motion, there would be no necessity to postpone it; but, if otherwise, he would not bring it forward till the time he had stated.
Mr. Sykesthought that the motion should not be postponed to so late a period.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that without pledging himself as to any particular course which the government might think it advisable to adopt, when the motion should be submitted, he hedged to state, on the part of himself and his right hon. friends, that their wish was that the gallant general should take exactly that course which he considered most convenient to himself, to the petitioners, and to all the parties interested. If the gallant officer should fix upon a time when his right hon. friend, the President of the Board of Trade, should, from ill health, be unable to attend, he undertook to say, on the part of those about him, that, they would, though deprived of the assistance of their right hon. colleague, endeavour to give the best explanation in their power of the views of government upon the subject.
General Gascoynesaid, that after what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, he would postpone his motion to the 29th instant.

CORN LAWS.
The House again resolved itself into a Committee, to consider further of the Corn Trade Acts. On the resolution being put, "That whenever the average price of Rye, or of Peas, or of Beans, made up and published in manner required by law, shall be 35s., and under 36 s. the quarter, the duty shall be, for every quarter, 15 s. And in respect of every integral shilling, by which such price shall be above 35 s., such duty shall be decreased by 1s. 6d. until such price shall be 45 s. Whenever such price shall be at, or above, 45 s. the duty shall be, for every quarter, 1s. Whenever such price shall be under 35 s., and not under 34 s., the duty shall be, for every quarter, 16 s. 6d. and, in respect of each integral shilling, or any part of each integral shilling, by which such price shall be under 34 s., such duty shall be increased by 1s. 6d."
Sir John Brydgessaid, he was anxious to say a few words, and they should be a few words only, not having hitherto had an opportunity to express his opinion upon the subject under discussion. But before
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he proceeded to the observations he had to make, he should take that opportunity to declare the just indignation that he felt, and he trusted the whole House felt, at the libel upon the landed interest, of England, uttered by the noble lord, one of the members for the county of York, in the debate upon this question the other night; and which, to this moment, he had had no opportunity to protest against, [cries of order !]. He should abstain, then, from further observation, and would now advert to the question. As a friend to agriculture, he lamented his majesty's government had thought it expedient to propose a fundamental alteration in the Corn-laws. He preferred the old system to that which it was intended to substitute for it. If there were errors in it, he would have corrected them; but he would not have destroyed it. The principle of the resolutions he did not approve of, considering them injurious to agriculture; and it was his conviction, from the date of its adoption, that the sun would no longer shine upon the landed interest. Notwithstanding his declaration, it was not his intention to oppose the measure, though he might suggest some alterations, which he might, consider improvements, in its progress through the committee. He resigned his humble opinion to the better judgment of that great statesman, from whom we were told this measure had emanated, and who, by the awful visitation of Providence, was unhappily removed from the councils of the nation— but he hoped in God only temporarily removed. A right hon. member, the Vice-president of the Board of Trade, who spoke in the debate a few evenings since, had stated it to be his opinion, that the depression of agriculture, which was at one time heavy, had subsided, and that a favourable re-action had taken place. It was not for him to controvert that assertion, as the right hon. member must possess the best source of information. Granting, therefore, that it was so, yet it was no proof of prosperity; every one knew that, without manure, more or less, no good crops could be obtained. So reduced had been the farming interest, that the cultivators of the soil were, at one time, unable to furnish the necessary and accustomed help, and, from poverty, were starving their lands. But when they arrived at the period when, from want of manure, the lands were bringing starva-

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tion upon themselves, they were compelled, at whatever loss, to seek manure, in hopes of getting some return, instead of getting nothing. This might account, if the fact was so, for a renewal of importation. The bonding system, as it now existed, he considered very destructive to British agriculture. It enabled traders and speculators to pour in—under regulations, he allowed —an unrestricted quantity of grain, by which means the markets were constantly, he might say permanently, over-stocked, so as to keep the British grower always in a state of subjection, never allowing the tide to run long enough in his favour to reimburse him for depression. He wished to see the quantity permitted to be taken out of bond at any one time limited; which would afford more, protection than there was at present. In conclusion, he repeated how much he lamented the introduction of this measure, considering it as a fatal injury to the agricultural interests of the kingdom; and, through these, detrimental to all the other interests of trade, manufactures, and commerce; for one, as had been truly said, could never flourish when the others were in decay.
Mr. Gippssaid, he did not think that the averages had been preserved in respect to rye, as compared with wheat. They were, in the present instance, too low, and he would move, as an amendment, that 40 s. be substituted for 35 s.
Mr. Westerncomplained, that the proportion formerly observed between wheat and other grains had, in this instance, been departed from. The usual proportion of price was two thirds; but they had lowered the price of rye to 35 s., and increased the duty to 15 s., three-fourths that of wheat. He wished the duty to be reduced to 12 s. 6d. or 13 s., and the price to be raised to 40 s., and recommended the hon. member to adopt his suggestion in his amendment.
Mr. C. Grantsaid, that in rye, peas, and beans, as in oats and barley, the averages of the last six years had been resorted to, with a view to regulate the price, and the result was what had been laid before the Committee.
Mr. Wodehousesaid, that the resolution proposed left the farmers without any remedy, in the event of a losing crop. Now, the fact was, that every crop of the last year, except that of wheat, had been a losing crop. He would support the amendment.
Sir E. Knatchbullthought, that the whole calculation of ministers had been upon erroneous principles. The average taken had been that of the last six years: now the fact was, that during the whole of the last six years, the agriculturists, instead of making a profit, had been growing to a loss. The course of ministers ought to have been, not to consider the average, but to ascertain what was a fair remunerating price.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the question, though it lay in a narrow compass, was an important one; but the course of the hon. gentlemen connected with the landed interest placed government in rather an unfair situation. When it had been proposed to rely upon the average of the last six years, in the case of the oats and barley, the hon. gentlemen were quite agreed; because that gave them a better rate than under the old rule they would have obtained: but now, upon the rye and peas, when the weapon cut a little the other way, they wanted to turn about, and said, "Let us calculate upon the old principle." Now it was at least fair that the course pursued should be uniform; and certainly, that taken was one by which the landed gentlemen did not suffer.
Mr. Calcraftcontended, that every case should stand upon its own merits, and that it mattered little what was the average price of the last six years, if that price afforded no remuneration to the farmer. Now he contended, that it was the duty of the House to enable the grower to sell his corn at the lowest possible rate. The circumstances of the country were such as to call for as cheap a supply of corn as it was possible to obtain. But how was it possible to have cheap corn from the farmer, if his rye and his beans were a continually losing crop? Let the farmer have something like profit on those two articles, and then he could afford to give the corn on more moderate terms.
Mr. G. Robinsontrusted, that it was not the intention of ministers to give way upon this point, as they had done in the case of oats and barley. The landed gentlemen should recollect, that there were other interests to protect besides their own.
Mr. Crippssaid, that the agriculturists and manufacturers hung together, and it was impossible to depress either, without injury to both. The manufacturers had never been worse off than, when corn was

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low. The first object was to employ the community. He thought the alterations introduced into the original resolutions, by ministers, had been made in accordance with the voice of the nation; and for having acceded to opinions so generally expressed, they deserved the thanks of that House. For his own part, when he first saw the original resolutions, he said that the resolution respecting rye, peas and beans was the result of some mistake, and that he hoped some alteration would be made.
Mr. Whitmorehoped that the committee would not be led away by the supposition that, the alteration proposed was of a trivial nature. He trusted that ministers would persevere in the original resolution.
Sir T. Lethbridgecontended, that there ought to be an alteration in favour of the home-grower, and that the resolution, as it now stood, could not be agreed to without injuring the agricultural interest. A great deal had been said about the conduct of landed gentlemen; but he begged the House to recollect, that they were there upon their defence, and that they would not do their duty if they did not watch every item of the resolutions.
Colonel Woodsaid, that the importation of peas and beans was not worth talking about. He put it to the hon. member who had proposed the amendment, whether it was worth while dividing the committee upon it.
Sir T. Goochdenied that the quantity of peas and beans grown in England was trifling. Two thirds of the land in England were capable of producing that crop, which was generally sown as a preparation for a wheat crop, and it was called by farmers the "golden crop;" but if the political economists were to carry their point, that crop must be henceforth called the "copper crop." He gave his hearty concurrence to the amendment.
The committee divided: For the amendment 102. For the original resolution 150. Majority 48. The resolution respecting wheat, meal and flour, viz., "for every barrel being 196lb., a duty equal in amount to the duty payable on five bushels of wheat," was then put;
Sir J. Newportproposed as an amendment, that the following words should be added to the resolution, "and also a duty not fluctuating of 4s. on each barrel of 196lb. at all times." The hon. member said, that he made this proposition in
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order to confer a benefit on the lower-classes. If grain was imported, the worst, and middlings went to support the poor; when flour was imported, it was of the best sort, and consumed exclusively by the rich. In the first instance, our own poor derived the benefit; in the latter, the poor of other countries derived it. He was sure that the House would not give away this benefit to foreign countries.
Mr. Frankland Lewiscalled the attention of the committee to the scarcity which prevailed in 1801, and hoped that they would not adopt any system, but one that would work in all seasons—in seasons of plenty as well as scarcity. If they did, it would certainly break down. Millers, from the very nature of things, possessed a monopoly. He knew it to be a fact, that during the great scarcity in this country, when the quartern loaf was at 22½d., some large purchases of flour had been made, the market price of which would have brought the loaf to only 18 d. This was the open competition price. It would not, therefore, be wise to shut up the trade in flour, by charging a high duty on that article. It was well known, that many of the corn-factors' shops in and about town were the property of extensive millers; and if the House left the public exposed to the combinations of these capitalists, they would have occasion to rue it. Competition was the only security against such effects. The milling trade was by no means free; for all the sites for wind and water mills were already occupied. He hoped the House would guard against such monopoly.
Mr. Irvingsaid, that considering that the manufacture of flour was of great importance, that a large capital was employed in that manufacture in this country, and that it was a staple manufacture in the sister kingdom, it behoved the committee to take care how they interfered with that trade by permitting the importation of foreign flour. He gave his unqualified support to the amendment.
Mr. Spring Ricethought the amendment proposed by his right hon. friend was fair and reasonable. If the importation of foreign flour were sanctioned, upon payment of the duty stated in the original resolution, the consequence would be that the difference between the freight of wheat when imported raw, and when manufactured into flour, would reduce the protection price of wheat from 60 s. to 56 s. 6d.

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per quarter. There was another view to be taken of the case. The establishment of mills in Ireland had been a great means of promoting the culture of wheat; and the substituting that grain for the potatoe, as a general article of food, was said on all hands to be a great step towards raising the moral character of the Irish peasantry. But, by this encouragement to foreign flour, the milling interest in Ireland would be wholly ruined. The great support of that interest had been the supply of the English market. He called, therefore, upon those gentlemen who were friends to these new measures to be consistent, by giving the same protection to flour which was already given to wheat. The proposition of his right hon. friend was not only fair but moderate. He should regret the failure of this corn question as a great national evil; but, if it was disfigured by inconsistencies and unjust partialities, he must raise his humble voice against it. All he wanted was fair play for the agriculturists of Ireland, upon the recognised principle on which it was conceded to the same class in England.
Mr. C. Grantfelt great reluctance in opposing the amendment of his right hon. friend; but he thought the subject had not been rightly understood by the committee. For a long period, the duty on wheat and on flour had been unequal; the disproportion had always been in favour of foreign flour. The resolution went to enact the same duty on flour as on the wheat which would produce it. The resolution said, that 196lb. of flour should correspond with five bushels of wheat. Strictly speaking, from eight bushels of wheat, 336lb. of flour ought to be produced; but the resolution assumed that eight bushels of wheat yielded only 313lb. of flour: the five bushels of wheat were assumed as equal to 196 lb. of flour, when in fact they were equal to 210 lb. By the existing law, when wheat paid a duty of 20 s. flour paid 5s. 5d.; but by the present resolution, it would pay 7s., being an increase of from 20 to 25 per cent. Could a larger protection be given than this? The complaints of the millers were, he thought, unreasonable. They had the grinding of 15,000,000 of quarters annually; and because there was a prospect of 80,000, or say, 200,000 quarters of foreign flour being imported, they became discontented. With respect to Ireland, she had the advantage of being
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close to the market, into which she could pour her produce with facility; whilst the flour of the United States, the competition of which was feared, had to cross a large extent of water. Yet Ireland wished for a prohibition against the importation of foreign flour. This prohibition had been withdrawn last year, through accident, rather than design; and he believed there was no objection to restore it. But where was the necessity? Irish flour might be bought for 35 s. the barrel; and he found from a price current, that American bonded flour was 25 s. and 26 s., subject to a duty of 15 s. or 20 s. There could not, therefore, be a more complete protection. No other country besides the United States could enter into a competition with our market; and she had not much to send. The largest importation of American flour was in 1817, and that was only 100,000 barrels. By a statement which he had received from a person of eminence in the American trade, he found, that the barrel of American superfine flour was six dollars; which, with the charges for freight, insurance, &c. was equal to 1l. 13 s. 9d.; adding the duty of 1l. 4s., the cost would be 2l. 17 s. 9d. The difference between that and wheat was only 9d. Our relations with the United States rendered it a very questionable policy to add a further unnecessary protecting duty upon her flour, which would operate as a complete prohibition.
Sir J. Newportasked why, if the right hon. member's reasoning were correct, a prohibitory duty had been laid on the importation of American flour into the British West-India Islands?
Mr. Whitmoreobjected to the amendment, on the ground that it did not apply to any particular price. He was sure if an additional duty of 4s. were imposed, that supply would be cut off which was of much importance in the policy of this country. He agreed that a monopoly to a considerable extent was possessed by the millers in this country, and that it existed particularly in a time of dearth; when they were able to make very advantageous terms for themselves. Surely, then, if no competition was to be entered into with those millers, the effect would be to increase that monopoly. Under these circumstances he trusted the government would remain firm to their original proposition.
Mr. Mooresaid, that the milling inter-

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est in Ireland was entitled to protection, because it had been fostered by various legislative enactments, and a great capital had been extended to increase and to spread it.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that when a proposition was made the other night for increasing the protection on bailey and oats, he assented to it, because he thought that the question had not been fairly considered; but, as he now thought that there were no grounds for the amendment of the right hon. baronet, he would support the proposition of government, no matter in how small a majority he might be left. His right hon. friend had stated, that the present bill would place the duty on wheat and flour on an equal footing, and that previously it had been most unequal; the duty on wheat being 12 s., while that upon the quantity of flour produced from it was only 9s. 9d. The resolution not only went to this extent, but it estimated the quantity of flour produced from a quarter of wheat at 313lb. only, whereas, in fact, it produced 336lb. Could a greater protection, then, be expected than this resolution would grant? Let the quantity of flour imported into this country be compared with the quantity of wheat, and it would be seen how little proportion the one bore to the other; either because of a greater danger that was apprehended in the exportation of flour, or from some other cause. Now, the House was called upon to fix an undeviating and rigid duty of 4s., applicable under all circumstances and changes to foreign flour—a course to which he could not give his sanction. He did not believe, that the quantity of hour imported into this country by America, could ever in any way injure us; but he felt that, if the House did prevent the importation of almost the only article we obtained from that country; if it did appear to say, that it availed itself of the first opportunity of excluding the only article they were enabled to send us, America would conceive the measure to arise from some lurking animosity, and this country would lay itself open to the danger of retaliation; which would infinitely outweigh any evil that might be dreaded by our millers.
The committee divided: For the Amendment 116. For the original Resolution 152; Majority 36. The rest of the resolutions were, after some conversation, agreed to.