Commons Sitting of 15 February 1827

KING'S MESSAGE FOR A FURTHER PROVISION FOR THE DUKE AND DUCHESS OF CLARENCE.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer presented the following Message from his Majesty:—
"GEORGE R.
"His Majesty being desirous of making such further provision for the support and maintenance of the duke and duchess of Clarence as may be suitable to the present situation of their royal highnesses, relies on the affection of His faithful Commons, that they will make such provision therein as the circumstances of the case may appear to require. G. R."
Ordered to be referred to a committee of the whole House to morrow.

EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM.
Mr. Wilmot Hortonrose, in pursuance of a notice which he had given last session, to move for the renewal of the Emigration Committee. He said he was anxious to stale in the outset, that whatever details he might now think it proper to enter into relative to the proceedings of the late committee, he did so merely as the chairman of that committee, and not as presuming to say any thing to the House of a definite nature relative to the intentions of government upon the subject. Perhaps it would be a convenient mode for him to inform the House of the circumstances which led to the appointment of that committee. In the year 1823, it was determined to try the experiment of sending a few individuals from the southern parts of Ireland to the province of Upper Canada—not from any expectation that the small emigration which then took place could produce any sensible effect upon the superabundant population of the south of Ireland, but merely for the sake of having before them the effect of an experiment tried upon a small scale, before they ventured upon a plan of emigration upon a large one. In the committee on
476
the state of the Irish poor, appointed in 1823, he as an evidence (not being a member of that committee), had mentioned this project of trying the experiment of emigration from the south of Ireland, on a small scale, and the committee, in their report, laid on the table of the House in 1823, approved of the suggestion in these words:—"The attention of government having been lately turned to the subject of emigration, your committee have been led to examine into the particulars of the experiment about to be tried. They cannot but express their approbation of the principles on which it has been conducted, and their hope that it may lead to satisfactory results."
In 1825 another vote had been proposed, for again trying the effect of an experiment in emigration on a small scale, from the south of Ireland to Canada; and it had then been opposed, as being contrary to all sound principle. It was said, that these trifling desultory emigrations were of no use whatever, and that nothing could afford any relief to the superabundant population of Ireland, except a plan of emigration on a very extended scale. To this it was answered, that matters were not ripe for venturing upon such an extended plan of emigration. That the proposition before the House was one merely in the nature of an experiment, to enable them to form some accurate judgment how far a grand and extended emigration might be beneficial or practicable. At length the proposition was, though somewhat reluctantly, agreed to, upon the understanding that a committee should be appointed to examine into the subject. That committee was appointed accordingly. It sat in the course of the last session of parliament, and proceeded to collect and examine colonial evidence to a great extent. Although it by no means executed the full purposes which might have been expected from a committee to which time and opportunity had been afforded to investigate subjects hitherto unexamined, much misunderstood, and greatly misrepresented, yet he hoped he was justified in saying, that, by common consent, the evidence obtained before the committee, was received by the public as evidence of a most valuable nature, tending to throw great light on many circumstances not understood with respect to the colonies, and exhibiting in a most unequivocal manner the success of the experi-

477
ment, as far as affected the fortunes of the individuals who had been the object of it. He should not do justice to this subject if he were not to call the particular attention of the House to the evidence which had been given before the Emigration committee, and former committees on the state of Ireland, and that part of the country from whence the emigrants proceeded. For this purpose he would refer gentlemen to the evidence of the bishop of Limerick, of Dr. Doyle, and of other persons who had means of acquiring information on the subject. It appeared from their statements, that Ireland was, at that time, overrun with a pauper population, who were actually deprived of the means of subsistence—for whose labour there was no real demand—and who wandered over the country, dependent for food, and clothing, either upon charity or plunder.
From this class of beings, alike unfortunate in their condition, and useless to the state, the emigrants were selected; and he would inform the House of the manner in which those who were removed from Ireland to Upper Canada, under the superintendance of Mr. Robinson, had been disposed of. Of the one hundred and eighty families sent out in 1823, one hundred and twenty had been located, and planted in the stations assigned to them; while forty families derived subsistence from being employed as labourers, for which purpose they proceeded during the summer, to the United States. The one hundred and twenty families were fixed, and, as it wore, rooted in the soil, and were at that moment living there, prosperous and happy. A statement of the property which they had acquired up to the year 1826 would be laid before the committee about to be appointed, by which it would appear that it amounted to upwards of 7,000 l.; and, if it increased in the same ratio, in the course of five years it would amount to 30,000 l. All "these persons had been redeemed from a state of absolute destitution, misery, and degradation, and had been placed in a colony, the soil of which was of incalculable fertility: they had been established in a situation where human foot had never before trodden, and they had only, as it were, to scratch the fertile earth to secure as bountiful a harvest as was obtained in this country by the most laborious and skilful cultivation.
478
The next question to which he would direct the attention of the House, was, whether or not the emigrants themselves were satisfied with their condition. In order to enable the House to form an opinion upon this point, he had only to refer to the evidence of colonel Talbot, than whom no man was more competent, from his opportunities, to form a fair judgment upon the subject. The Report of the emigration committee in 1826, thus notices that gentleman's communication: "Your Committee beg to transcribe an Extract from a letter addressed by colonel Talbot, the founder of the Talbot settlement in Upper Canada, to a member of your Committee, with respect to the Emigrations of 1823, and 1825:—'I accompanied sir Peregrine Maitland last winter on a tour of inspection to the new Irish emigrant settlements, about 100 miles below York. I was anxious to see how they were getting on, and whether the scheme of transporting the poor of Ireland to this country was likely to prove beneficial or not, and was happy to find them doing admirably. These people were sent out last summer, about 2,000 souls, and did not get on their land until late in November: all of them that I saw had log huts, and had chopped each between three and four acres, and I have every reason to think that they will realise a comfortable independence in the course of this year, and be of no further cost to government; and it was satisfactory to hear them expressing their gratitude for what was done for them.'"
In an appendix which would be found subjoined to the Report, an Address would be seen from a body of the Irish emigrants, and the expressions which they made use of on the occasion could not fail to convince any person, that the authors of that Address must have been in the enjoyment of such a share of the blessings of life that they would not very readily be induced to give up their present possessions, and the prospects with which they were connected. "Let but an enemy," said they, "make his appearance to invade our happy residence, one we would all go forth to meet him: not an Irish soul would remain behind. We would all combine with one force and mow down the foe with our shilelahs" [a laugh]. Here at least, was to be found the evidence of contented minds. The latest accounts respecting the condition of

479
the emigrants were as flattering as those previously received. He had therefore a right to claim from the House the admission—setting aside, for the present, the question of whether the effect compensated for the expense which was incurred to produce it—that a considerable portion of pauper population had been placed in a state of progressive improvement such as had seldom been paralleled in the history of the world.
The next question of interest connected with this subject was, how far the process of emigration was agreeable to the former inhabitants. Did the inhabitants of Upper Canada rejoice, or were they dissatisfied, that their soil was made the theatre of this experiment at colonization? It was satisfactory to know, that they were pleased that the tide of emigration had been turned into their province. This was put beyond all doubt by the contents of the addresses which had been presented to the Lieutenant-governor of the province by the inhabitants of the county of Northumberland, and those of five other divisions of Canada. The addressers expressed their pleasure at the settlement of the emigrants in the province, and bore testimony to their good conduct. There were no addresses of a different character—a circumstance which clearly demonstrated, that the feelings of the colonists were in favour of the new-comers, and that they considered the addition which had been made to their population to be advantageous to them. They doubtless perceived that such an augmentation of their population comprised within it the elements of improvement, and that it was only by such means that they could hope to attain the rank amongst nations which, in the course of natural progression they had a right to expect. The colonial witnesses all concurred in thinking that the prosperity of the colony would be greatly advanced by the introduction of additional population. Those persons were interested in the prosperity of the colony, and would not, therefore, have given such evidence, if they had not been convinced of the truth of what they stated. The witnesses to whom he alluded, differed amongst themselves, in politics and religion, but they all agreed in stating, that the colony had derived benefit from the introduction of the emigrants; and they were likewise unanimous in expressing an opinion, that there
480
was no reason why the capital advanced to the emigrants should not be repaid by them to this country, if not in money, at least in money's worth. As the families of the emigrants spread, the market for British manufactures would be widened; and the pursuance of the plan of colonization seemed to promise a series of benefits, which it would not be dangerous to anticipate. In our own empire it was indisputably true, that the proportion between capital and manual labour had not been preserved; and the consequence was, that the labouring classes did not receive that remuneration for their exertions which was consistent with their prosperity, and hardly with their existence. The conclusion, therefore to which the former committee had come was most sound and just: one part of our dominions required population, which the other could bestow with advantage, and the wants of one country could thus be supplied by the superfluities of the other.
A very mistaken notion was entertained by many persons as to the mode in which emigration should be carried into effect. Those persons maintained that emigration should be conducted on the principle of supplying labourers only to the colonies—that the expense should be limited to the carrying of the emigrants out, and landing them on the shores to be disposed of as chance or circumstances might direct. The principle on which the emigrations of 1823 and 1825 had been conducted was quite different. In both those instances it had been considered wise and necessary to plant the emigrants, and to supply them with capital, not in money, but in kind, to enable them to support themselves, and to accumulate property. In short, to place them in a condition to want labourers for themselves, rather than to become labourers to others. If labourers were wanted, nothing, certainly, could be better than to introduce them up to a certain point; but absorption must soon take place, the market would soon be abundantly supplied with labourers; but no limit could be assigned to the improvement which would result from colonizing upon the principle which had been acted on in 1823 and 1825, unless, indeed, the fertility of the laud should become exhausted. That was the distinction which he drew between emigration where the individuals were fixed to the soil, and that desultory kind of emigration which consisted in merely con-

481
veying them to a certain place, and then leaving them to make their way as they could. He would appeal to any man whether the advantages of continuing the plan hitherto pursued were not almost too obvious to require argument. The settler would be firmly fixed in the soil, instead of taking his chance of obtaining subsistence: instead of being like a plant thrown down upon the earth, either to take root, or to be withered by the sun, he would be like a young and vigorous tree set by a careful hand, with all advantages of soil and climate. There was not one trait of resemblance between the happy state of the emigrant now, and his miserable condition while he remained in his native country, where not one ray of hope beamed upon him, to mitigate the extent of his sufferings. At present, he saw his little stock increasing, from year to year, amid the smiles of a contented family. His children, instead of being curses, were blessings, and supplied him with labour as his means enlarged and the necessity for assistance increased. He began to see his way to independence, if not to wealth, and this happy change was produced by abandoning a country in which not one ray of hope beamed upon him, to illuminate the dreary darkness of his course.
The Committee, in their Report, had not thought it necessary to enter into much detail respecting the mode in which emigration ought to be carried into effect, That was the province of the committee now about to commence its duties. They had been required rather to sanction a principle, than to settle arrangements; and it was left to government and to parliament to decide in what way the principle should be carried into effect after the report of another committee. It was for the House to consider, whether the expense necessarily incurred in the outset, could be repaid, so as ultimately to impose no burthens upon the public. The settler would only be called upon to reimburse the state, as his wealth and his means augmented; and there seemed no conclusive reason why this comparatively trifling outlay should not be advanced, for the sake of producing so much happiness, and, in the end, of increasing the prosperity and resources of the whole empire. He had never heard from any quarter an objection to the principle of emigration, as applicable to the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, except-
482
ing as it was founded upon the supposition, that the expense was beyond any conceivable advantage. He took it for granted, that no man could deny that the remuneration for labour in Ireland was far below the wants of the labourer—that the effect of such a state of things was, in the end, to equalize poverty, and to spread it like a blasting mildew over the whole face of the empire. If any man held out a hope that schemes of forced capital, of colonization at home on lands of inferior fertility, would remedy the evil, he thought he could promise, that before the commit tee concluded its labours, it would be clearly proved that such a hope was worse than fallacious. The only effect of such a course would be, to continue the worst characteristics of that which it was intended to improve—that of splitting farms, and the introduction of the cottage-system in Ireland; and at no very distant period, the evils, of which we had now to complain, would be aggravated by the very experiment to remedy them.
Having stated thus much on the subject of emigration, as connected with Ireland, he begged to call the attention of the House to the effect which it would have upon England. It had been proved to the satisfaction of the committee, that emigration from England could be carried on without any outlay on the part of the public, for the expense of such an operation: that was to say, that certain parishes, acting on motives of self-interest, would be ready to make an advance, which, with the unequivocal means in the possession of the emigrant himself, would be sufficient to meet the expenditure of the passage, as well as that of localizing the emigrant in the colony, and placing him in a condition to require no additional pecuniary assistance. He begged to call the attention of the House to the details of the state of a parish in England, which would sufficiently illustrate the position he had advanced. The parish to which he alluded was Shipley, in Sussex, and he had the pleasure to acknowledge, that it was to the facilities afforded by the hon. member for the county of Sussex, that he was indebted for the details which he should now proceed to lay before the House. If the House attended to them, he should be able, with more effect, to argue the question in its general application to the rest of the empire. The rental of the parish of Shipley was 2,599 l. and the

483
poor-rates, 2,314 l. If he were asked the cause of this extraordinary relation between the amount of the rental of the parish, and that of its poor-rates, he would ascribe it to the change of the times, and say, that the high prices in time of war had attracted a population to this place, and provided for it; and that, on a change of circumstances, the population could not be sustained on its labour, and being as it were tethered to the place, were obliged to look to the parish for subsistence. But to proceed with the details. The rate-payers were forty-one in number. Forty-nine cottages were unable to pay rates at all. Sixty-seven able-bodied labourers, precisely such as it was desirable to export to make their fortunes in North America, were employed in digging and breaking stones for the roads, not because their labour was advantageous, but simply because it was thought better to employ them in this way than to allow them to remain in idleness. One hundred and forty-seven persons, unable to undergo hard work, were maintained in their own houses, and seventy were kept in the poor-house. There were 233 regular labourers whom every landholder in the parish was now obliged, in turn, to employ in the following ratio:—The farmer who rented poor land to the amount of 10 l., or better land to the amount of 11 l. or 12 l. a year, was compelled to give work to one man. And in proportion to the rent and the quality of the land, the occupier of land of an average quality, for example, worth 100 l. a year, had to provide nine labourers now with employment. Six men were, in fact, as many as he wanted; so that three were absolutely superfluous. The annual expense of 233 labourers at 9s. each per week, was 5,452 l., from which 33 per cent, or 1,779 l. was to be deducted for unnecessary labour. This added to the poor-rate (if the labour be calculated for the whole year) would be 4,113 l., from which deducting the rental he had already mentioned, the expense beyond that rental was 1,514 l. Why was not this surplus labour removed from the parish of Shipley? Solely because there was no demand for their labour elsewhere; and unless emigration were a remedy for the evil, he knew of no other. When such facts were stated upon authority that could not be resisted, he knew not what hope there was of an amelioration taking place in favour of the
484
inhabitants of that parish. Would it not obviously be the interest of the rate-payers to raise a sum by annuity, which was to cease in ten years, and get rid of the necessity of maintaining, at least, the able-bodied labourers in the parish? Sixty-seven labourers, were engaged in forced employment; seventy-seven may be considered as uselessly occupied, amounting in all to 144. Suppose that number reduced to 100 all able-bodied men; he would say "able-bodied," because he never for a moment was so wild as to contemplate any other description of persons as possible objects of emigration. The yearly expense of each redundant labourer to the parish was 25 l.; consequently, the expense of 100 men was 2,500 l. per annum. The expense attending the emigration of that number of persons, on a calculation such as would insure the prosperity of the parties, would be about 10,000 l., of which, let it be remembered, the emigrants might be called on to pay one-half: so that the whole disbursement which the parish would have to make, on account of the removal of the number of men above-stated, would not exceed 5,000 l., a sum which they could raise without difficulty, by paying an annuity of 647 l. a-year, to cease in ten years. Thus, then, the immediate effect of the abstraction of one hundred men from the above parish, in the way he had described, would be, to reduce its expense by the amount of about 75 per cent. A comparison had been made between the amount received by a labourer with a wife and four children, and by another with a similar family, both residing in Shipley, one being employed all the year round, and the other only during harvest, being maintained during the rest of the year by the parish; and it was found that the difference was no more than 3l. 6s. Many other agricultural parishes in England were in the same situation as that of Shipley. For such he knew of no remedy but emigration. The rate-payers of Shipley were of that opinion also, and had declared their willingness to contribute one-half of the expense which would be incurred by the removal of the superabundant population. And no one who heard these facts stated, could, he thought, doubt for a moment, that the rate-payers similarly placed throughout the kingdom would be glad to concur in a plan of emigration, which would be attended with such decided advantages.

485
The hon. member referred to the result of the last and preceding emigrations, as affording the best evidence of the practicability of future experiments. In Ireland particularly, this evidence was more widely spread than it was in this country. He had himself seen a number of letters from emigrants who had gone out in 1823, to their friends in Ireland, expressing Strongly their satisfaction with their present condition, and using every incentive to their countrymen to follow their example. Nothing could be more conclusive of the way in which the change had been regarded by those for whose use it was intended. And when we reflected for a moment upon the state of things in Ireland, it was impossible not to say that the change was for the better. He was as little a friend to expatriation as any man; but who could deny that it was better to translate persons to a fruitful soil, rather than to leave them starving under a system of paralyzing pauperism? As a further illustration of his opinions, the hon. member referred to an address transmitted by the emigrants of 1823, to Mr. Robinson, who presided over that emigration, expressive of their thanks to him for being instrumental in bringing about the fortunate change which had taken place in their circumstances. This address was dated in December last. The parties appeal to their loyalty as the best test of their comfort; and Mr. Robinson, in reply, had recommended them "to persevere, to forget the past, and be obedient to the laws;" and there was every reason to believe, that they would attend to the recommendation.
If, then, 105 families were induced to emigrate in 1823, and 1,200 in 1825, with success, he saw no reason why the principle might not be unlimitably applied, as long as land remained in the settlements uncultivated. Any man who did not approve of emigration, in the present circumstances of the country, must view facts with eyes very different from those with which he contemplated them. It was an advantage attendant upon emigration to countries like Canada, that every succeeding class of emigrants presented a market for the consumption of the products, whether of agriculture or the coarser sort of manufactures, supplied by those who preceded them, thereby at once receiving and conferring advantages; and when he considered the matter in that light,
486
he could not understand how the argument which they heard repeated so often could be supported; namely, that a limited emigration might perchance be successful, but that one on a larger scale must certainly fail. There was another mistake into which those fell who argued against the propriety of emigration from Ireland, and that was when they insisted upon the advantages resulting from the liberal employment of capital. Now, so far from the increase of capital carrying with it a demand for labour as a necessary consequence, it much more frequently produced quite the contrary effect. Upon that subject, the evidence of Mr. Brackenridge was of the greatest importance. He says, that "notwithstanding labour is so cheap in Ireland, every kind of product of labour, whether from agriculture or manufactures, is dearer than it may be had in England." The reason he gives for that is, that there is a deficiency of implements, such as machinery for manufacture, and hoes, harrows, and ploughs for agriculture, the latter being in every respect of the worst material and most clumsy construction. But did not the House see what would be the consequence of any improvement in machinery, or in harrows and ploughs, from the application of capital? Why, that the demand for labour for a time would be decreased in an exact ratio with the improvement, and that in proportion as they found themselves able to produce the same quantity, or a greater quantity, of any product or manufacture, from the use of improved tools or machinery, in that proportion would the demand for labour by the hand be diminished. If therefore, there was even an application of greatly-increased capital to agriculture, so long as the population continued to increase, the effect might, in the first instance, be rather to exaggerate than diminish the evil; and those who enlarged upon the effect of capital would find, that in a country placed in the situation that Ireland Was in at present, emigration alone could prove an adequate preparation for relief to that country.
There had been petitions presented from the manufacturers of Glasgow and its vicinity, complaining of the most appalling distress; and representing in terms, he feared but too strongly borne out by the facts, the hopeless and irremediable condition of a great portion of the artisans and manufacturing population of that

487
portion of Scotland. In the committee he was then about to propose, evidence would be heard, too, from them; and the House would, from the report, be enabled to see how far their statements were upheld by the proofs, and how far it might be prudent to listen to their prayers for assistance to leave a country where they could no longer earn the means of subsistence. The House ought, however, to remember, that the habits necessarily engendered by the life of a manufacturer or artisan, were not so favourable to their possessor, upon emigration, as if he had been reared in the knowledge of agriculture; and it would be for the committee to see how far the principle of emigration could be safely carried into effect, with a manufacturing population. The opinion, however, of that class being wholly ineligible for emigration, might, he conceived, be carried too far; for recent events had shown, that emigrants of that description had been very successful in Upper Canada. There was, indeed, a peculiar distinction between the agricultural and manufacturing population in one respect; namely, that it became extremely difficult, from the nature of the employment of the manufacturer, and from its frequent variations, to say whether there was, at any particular time, a redundancy in any branch of trade. They had seen thousands out of employment to-day, receiving high wages and in full work on the morrow; and in such sudden changes and alternations it became extremely difficult to say at what time, or to what extent, any branch ought to be relieved. In his opinion, the only method of ascertaining the state of a population under such circumstances, was by the rate of wages: and he would say, that if it could be demonstrated, that the average rate of wages spread over a series of years, although subjected to occasional fluctuations, were sufficient to support an artisan in any class of manufactures, it would be too much to assert, that there was a permanent redundancy of hands in that branch of manufactures. On the contrary, if the average wages of labour were for a long period insufficient to the maintenance of an artisan in any particular employment, it was fair to infer that there was a redundancy of labour in his class, which could not find vent elsewhere. He supposed that no one would deny, that that principle which regulated the price of commodities, also regulated
488
the price of the labour of those who produced them; and that, whenever the supply became in either case in excess, as compared with the demand, the price must sink until the market was cleared of that proportion of the article, whether a commodity or labour, which was really in excess. If, therefore, the market could by any means, such as emigration, be cleared of those hands which were at the present moment superabundant, it followed, that the remainder would find the wages of labour increased to such an amount as would afford them an adequate remuneration. To take the parish of Blackburn, in Lancashire, for example. In the year 1814, the average price for weaving was 9s. 6d. for each hand-loom piece, of which there were then 27,000 made in a week, and the produce to the weavers was 12,095 l. At the end of the year 1826, the average price of weaving a piece of the very same description, was 1s. 9d. Was not this, he would ask, a state of things which required remedy? Did it not show that something more was requisite, than a mere increase of demand? These persons had petitioned the House in terms of the bitterest distress and despondency; but he would venture to say, that they had ascribed their misfortunes to circumstances which had no conceivable reference to their present condition. Among other mistaken causes, these parties persisted in asserting that their situation was produced from the employment of machinery, and that they would be relieved by its destruction. He would ask, was it not of some importance that they should be made to understand their real situation, through the investigation and inquiries of a committee—and that they should be made to appreciate the consequences of the superabundant hands introduced from Ireland and other places. Suppose that the machinery in one parish were destroyed—ought they not to be made aware that the manufacturers would erect new machinery in another, and the means of employment in the parish from whence it was removed would be taken away, without, in the slightest degree, diminishing that effect of machinery of which they complained. In Manchester there was a population of 120,000 persons, and yet there were at the present moment, dependent on poor-rates, 3,590 families, making upwards of 14,000 souls, of whom half were desti-

489
tute of employment. If there was a hope that all the present distress would be removed, and the cloud which, at present, hung over their prospects would clear away—if it was possible to find any other method of permanently employing their families, and leaving the supply equal to the demand—then God forbid that he should be the first to recommend emigration from this country to any other! But if the question rested upon the point of whether the distress was temporary or permanent, he feared there was very little chance of any permanent relief by employment, so as to place those who were now suffering beyond the reach of distress. It would be unnecessary for him to say that the introduction of machinery must, under every circumstance, be considered a most desirable object. One thing was certain, that the productions by the means of machinery had become great enough to prevent any fear of a rise in the price of any commodity by the withdrawing of workmen through the means of emigration.
The hon. member then went into an explanation of the details, as shown from the labours of the last committee, and stated the maximum cost of the transport of every individual to Canada to be about 20 l. Many of them, indeed all, had there been fortunate; and there was the best ground for believing, that the condition of repaying the advances made to them by government could not, under any circumstances, be considered a hard ship, he was well aware that the subject of emigration, as connected with the manufacturing districts, required much further examination, and he did not pre tend to deny that it might not lead to a consideration of the whole state of the Poor-laws. This only he would venture to declare, that unless they fairly met the evil, and applied some real and substantive remedy, the demands under those laws would soon absorb the whole rental and capital of the country. To that subject the committee would apply themselves, and if they could suggest any other or better expedient than emigration, he would most gladly embrace it; although he had no hesitation in saying, after the most mature consideration, that it was his deliberate conviction that no better remedy could be found. He would now move, "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the subject of Emigration from the United Kingdom."
Mr. James Grattanobjected to the motion, as calculated to lead the people of Great Britain, and especially those of Ireland, astray. Emigration was the hobby, if he might so call it, of the hon. gentleman opposite; but it had been proved by experience, that emigration, upon any extended scale, would not do; and, in the mean time, hopes were excited among the distressed people. They imagined that a plan was in preparation for their removal, and that money was going to be granted for their aid; while the hon. gentleman went on, from session to session, appointing his committee, discussing projects which the country had no means of realizing, and describing scenes of comfort and amelioration which, by no probability could come to pass. By the calculation of colonel Cockburn, the military experiment made in 1816 had cost the country, for each settler, at the rate of 20 l. per man. He repeated, that the expense of such a proceeding made it impossible for the country to execute it to any considerable extent. We were called upon to lay out enormous sums for the purpose of sending our population abroad. Would it not be better, in the first instance, to try the cheaper experiment, of making them comfortable at home? And, even with all this expense, the system of emigration was radically bad. If it relieved us of our number for the present, the vacuum so produced would be very soon again supplied. With respect to Ireland, what had been the opinion of persons well calculated to judge, as to the effect of emigration? Let the hon. gentleman, who was so anxious to move the labouring population out of Ireland, compel their landlords to do something which should find them present food and employment. What was the evidence of Mr. Nimmo before the committee? Mr. Nimmo was a Scotchman, and not likely to exaggerate what he had seen from any national and party feeling. His evidence went to show, that riot and ill government, rather than a surplus population, were the evils that afflicted Ireland: for he said, "In places like Derry, where the country was quiet, I found the land letting for 5l. an acre; and yet the people well off, and satisfied; but, in Kerry, where the land was let at only 1 l. an acre, the country was in a state of tumult, and all was miserable, and going wrong." He wished Irish gentlemen would look to Ireland in

491
the discussion of this question. The bishop of Limerick had said in his evidence, why do you not employ the redundant population at home, in the fisheries, in the making of roads, and not send them abroad? He did not think that many Irishmen would now colonize with any but irritated feelings; and the probability was, that they would be among our bitterest and most implacable enemies. He trusted that the House would not suffer a new committee to be appointed. For his own part, he would rather vote a sum of money for the relief of these distressed persons at home; and he thought that, if there was to be a tax for the purposes of relief, it had better be spent at home than in furnishing the means of emigration to other countries. He would therefore move as an amendment, "That the state of distress existing in this country at present, and the still greater distress which has existed for so many years in Ireland, requires some more immediate and permanent remedy than any which may be expected to result from the re-appointment of a Committee on Emigration."
Mr. Lomberose to second the amendment. He said, that if the hon. gentleman opposite would come down to that House with a fair and honest scheme of colonization, he should have his cordial support; but this was a mere delusion. As to Ireland, there was but one course to be pursued—Catholic emancipation must be granted. It was said that the present distresses of that country were owing to want of employment, and that there was no capital to furnish that employment. But why was there no capital? Because of the disturbances which existed there; and which would prevent any capitalist in his senses from risking his property in that country. Remove the disabilities under which the Catholics laboured, and these disturbances would no longer exist. He was sure he spoke the sentiments of every honest Irishman when he said, that if these disabilities were removed, the people of Ireland would become good and peaceful subjects; and the English capitalist might then settle there in perfect security. This would certainly be the result. He trusted that the great question of Catholic emancipation would pass that House in a few days; and if it did not, he hoped he should live to see the day when the people of Ireland would come in a body to the doors of that House, and
492
snatch, by constitutional means, those privileges which they had so long prayed for in vain.
Colonel Torrenssaid, that having given great consideration to the subject of emigration, and believing emigration, as a general measure, to be capable of conferring the most extensive benefits upon this empire, he naturally felt desirous to reply to some of the observations which had been that night urged, upon his side of the House, on the present question. Instead of deprecating emigration, as some hon. gentlemen had clone, and in no very measured terms, he was convinced that all those who had reasoned this great question, upon sound and intelligent principles, must perceive that it was calculated to work almost unlimited advantage to Great Britain, and that for the evils of that country which had just been touched upon, it offered the only efficient remedy. The hon. member for Wexford had told the House that, for want of employment in their native country, the poor labourers of Ireland were compelled to ship themselves hither; that on arriving here, they discovered a redundancy of hands offering for agricultural labour, and were, therefore, obliged to return back to Ireland, where, of necessity, they fell into the most abject state of pauperism and want. Now, could any fact prove more strongly than this, that, if it was possible to obviate this hard necessity, these people ought not to be bandied backwards and forwards, between the two countries, like miserable shuttlecocks, abandoned to their own wretchedness? Another hon. member was of opinion, that British capitalists and British farmers should settle among them, and endeavour to give employment to the unfortunate population of that country. But that hon. gentleman ought to know, that in Ireland there was already a great redundancy of that population employed in agricultural labour; that in point of fact, twice the number of agricultural labourers which were employed in England, failed in Ireland to raise the same amount of produce.
If already, therefore, double the number of agricultural hands were in work in Ireland, what would be the effect of introducing into that country the English and Scotch system of agriculture? Why, of necessity, to render one-half of the whole agricultural population of Ireland, absolutely and positively redundant, and totally

493
unemployed. An hon. gentleman had applied epithets to the schemes of emigration that had been, at different times, contemplated by the government, which might surely as well have been spared. The question of emigration was one so wide, and to be discussed upon principles so abstruse, yet so philosophical, that it would not be disposed of by applying to it a few epithets of such a character; and, still less, in so far as it regarded Ireland. It was not the want of capital that caused the distresses of Ireland; it was the fact of her territory being too small to support her population; and thus it was that the redundancy of population met them at the very threshold of the argument, and was the evil to which a remedy must be first applied. This great and important question must be tried by its own merits. In Ireland there was, as it was confessed on all hands, a redundancy of population; and the hon. gentleman under the gallery had proposed to remedy this evil by increasing the capital of that country. Now, he would inform that hon. gentleman, that where there were not fertile lands on which capital could be applied, it might happen, that in one and the same country both capital and labour might be redundant. He need not remind any hon. gentleman who was conversant with these matters, that when double capital was applied to land, it would not always give a double result. There was a point, at which, after repeated applications of capital to a farm, any succeeding applications of capital could not be successfully made, any more than it would be successful in the result to apply large portions of capital to lands of a certain degree of want of fertility. The state of the question was this. England had a redundant capital, and a redundant population; Ireland had a redundant population, and in the colonies land was redundant. Emigration, therefore, was merely the application of the redundant capital and population of the united kingdom to the redundant land of the colonies. This would be to increase the national wealth, and he would contend that it was the only means of putting down our poor-laws, which were a Spencean system, that would, if persevered in, break down all aristocratical distinctions, and reduce every state and condition to the same level of poverty and misery.—With respect to Ireland, he wished as heartily as any man, to see all disabilities
494
removed, and to see that country one with this, and governed by the same laws; but he must say, that he thought it a little too much for the hon. member who spoke last to mix up the question of Catholic emancipation with that of emigration; and he would venture to say, that if Catholic emancipation were granted to-morrow, it would not relieve, in the slightest degree, the distresses of Ireland. He would add one word about the expense of carrying this projected emigration into effect. Great stress had been laid upon this; and some hon. gentlemen appeared to think, that the greatness of the expense would be fatal to the project. He, however, was of opinion, that the expense of sending out a million of people to Canada would be well repaid. They would occupy twenty millions of acres of the best land which government could give them, and if capital were supplied them, these acres would in a few years be worth a pound an acre; and could they not then afford to pay a shilling a year rent? Any body accustomed to consider the value of land, and the growth of rent, would entertain no doubt that to Canada this calculation, at the lowest, would apply. And, as to that noble country, people at home really looked at the question in a very narrow point of view. They looked at Canada simply as she now was, not with any regard to what she might be—to what she must hereafter attain to—in the occupation of a large British population of settlers, going out there with sufficient, though probably frugal, means. These persons would naturally require a great abundance of coarse materials, but materials of light and easy freight; and the mother country would gradually be founding a commerce, which would one day become most extensive. Markets for various commodities would be constantly springing up in Canada, and she would, at no distant period, become as flourishing, in proportion to her resources, as the United States themselves. She would very soon evince a progress not less rapid than that which the United States displayed after the war of independence. He would say again, that the measure which was contemplated by the present motion, was a great measure, pregnant with mighty results, and founded upon the best and soundest principles of political economy—that it would combine those productive elements of wealth and power which, uncombined, were fruitless—that it

495
would relieve, as he had before observed, Ireland from the oppressive redundancy of her population; and England from the alarming and destructive increase of her poor-rates; and finally, that it would spread the British name, the British laws, and British influence throughout all climes of the world.
Mr. Brightconsidered that this was a practical question, and had been dealt with too theoretically. He had, no doubt, that emigration, on a large scale, would be of great benefit to the country; but he thought that the measures pursued by government, with respect to emigration to British America, were not those which ought to have been pursued. The hon. Secretary had, in effect, given the House to understand, that his schemes of emigration had perfectly succeeded. He had intimated, that the experiment of 1823 had had every success; but in this point he entirely disagreed with him. The hon. gentleman had talked about some strange multiplication of property in the case of one hundred and twenty persons settled in Upper Canada, who had taken out only 20 l. a-piece, and were now worth in the aggregate, 7,000 l. But, with this estimate, let the House contrast the evidence of col. Cockburn; and, having done so, the House would be slow to believe that Mr. Robinson, the conductor of the experiment of 1825, had effected twice as much. From the statements of these gentlemen, he inferred that the results of each expedition had been disastrous. Mr. Robinson, in particular, was evidently anxious to explain away a charge that had been made against the misfortunes that attended the experiment which he conducted. It appeared that the people were landed in Canada at the wrong time of the year; but, he added, they were as comfortable as could be. He admitted, that there were many local fevers and agues about; but then, he consolingly added, "we brought two thousand people out; and have lost but one hundred." He allowed that they were much annoyed by the mosquitos and insects; but then they were all pretty well. Could it, then, be seriously contended, that these experiments had succeeded? If Mr. Robinson encountered such difficulties in conducting his people to their location in the second experiment, what must have been encountered by colonel Cock-bum in respect to the first? The hon. gentleman declared that he thought these
496
experiments amounted to a total failure, and ought not to be repeated. But did he, therefore, say, that, in the present distressed state of the country, emigration ought not to be encouraged? Far from it. He contended, that this committee ought to sit, and beat about for some better and more eligible means of effecting such purposes as were contemplated by these experiments. If they began by removing the difficulties and impediments which now interposed to prevent the removal of the distressed, there would speedily be a multitude beyond the one hundred and twenty persons already spoken of, settled in Canada. At one period, let it be remembered, no less than seventy-five thousand persons embarked from Ireland, within a very short space of time, for the colonies; and, if these facilities were opened, as they should be, that measure would soon be repeated. The hon. gentleman, after praising the objects and exertions of the Quebec Emigration Society, and pointing out its great importance and utility in forwarding settlers to their locations, proceeded to shew that that institution ought to be encouraged and supported by the government. The government ought not to shrink from the question of emigration, from any fear of expense. He thought Canada one of the bulwarks of the empire, and it was of the greatest possible moment that she should be adequately colonized and supported, if we meant to protect ourselves in our American possessions, or wished to defend them from encroachment. A large annual sum of money from the public purse, for the advancement and encouragement of this beautiful colony, would be always well expended: but, in order to the success of that measure, the country ought to be properly surveyed and mapped. To accomplish this object, he should gladly support the expenditure of 50,000 l.; and he thought it would be a meanness unworthy of this country, and of the object to which it was to be applied, to object to a grant which, if well laid out, must in the end prove highly beneficial, as well to the nation, as to the persons for whose relief it was immediately intended. Differing, as he did, from the views of the hon. Secretary, and from the recommendations which the committee had made for the future, still he was convinced that the committee ought to go forward; because he believed that from the inquiry would spring evi-

497
dence upon which the House might safely act, and suggestions which might be practicable
Mr. Brownlow, though somewhat disappointed with the statements that had been that evening made by the lion. Secretary near him, felt considerably gratified that, hitherto, whatever objections had been taken to the measure recommended by that hon. gentleman, applied only to the details, and not to the principle of the measure. That principle was left entirely untouched; namely, the relief of the not merely excessive, but vastly superabundant, population of Ireland. This superabundance was general, and not confined to the mountains and waste lands only, which the hon. member for Wicklow recommended that they should be employed to cultivate instead of being conveyed to eat bread and to earn money in America. But, in the former case, where was the bread to be had, or the money to be found to support these poor people during their employment? The gravamen of this case was, that thousands and hundreds of thousands, nay, he might say, two-thirds of the people of Ireland, were unemployed. The hon. member for Bristol had objected, that the hon. Secretary's measure was not the right one. Now, he would admit that the details of the measure were very important, and might involve the inexpediency of the whole measure itself, and it would be very well to consider them, when they should have been brought before the House. But after all that had been said on this subject, it was a little too hard for the House to be trying details which had not yet come under their notice. The hon. Secretary was not now calling on the House to approve or support any specific plan; nor did he mean, as an hon. member seemed to apprehend, to kill Irish emigrants with salt pork, boiled beef and plum-pudding. All that the hon. Secretary had said, in effect, was—"Our experiment of 1823 succeeded to a certain degree. Give me a committee, and let us prepare a plan of emigration, such as, upon all considerations, shall appear most likely to be successful." For his part, he (Mr. Brownlow) was much obliged to the hon. Secretary for having brought forward the question. In the first place, that fact alone savoured of doing something for Ireland. He could not help thinking, that, though a flood of light had lately poured, in upon
498
them about Irish affairs, little had been done in them, compared with the knowledge which parliament had acquired of them. Neither did he mention this as matter of blame; for, so aggravated was the situation of that country, that it required a very vigorous mind in the man who should take up one part of the complicated case, which that anomalous situation presented to him, not to abandon the rest of it in utter despair. From himself the hon. Secretary had the greatest praise; because, next to that great and vital question, which stood upon their books for discussion on the 1st of March—next to the political evil which now wasted the strength and impaired the resources of Ireland—there was no subject so deeply interesting to an Irishman as this question, touching the only measures which could effectually relieve his country from the evils arising out of her superabundant population. It seemed, however, that this was, according to the expression of one gentleman, "the hobby" of the hon. Secretary; and it was said that every man had his hobby: but the report, with the accompanying evidence, was a very valuable document, and well worthy of being read. Yet the whole of that evidence and report might be dispensed with, and a very strong and pressing case would remain, for taking the condition of the superabundant population of the empire into consideration.—He would now advert to the evidence which was taken before the Irish committee, of which the hon. Secretary was not a member. The hon. member for Bristol had great sympathy with the men who went out in 1823; they, it seemed, were not well off enough; they found the climate bad; they were bitten by mosquitos. But, did that hon. gentleman know what was the situation of the pauper population of Ireland? for that was the point to which he now desired to call the attention of the House; and he would read two or three extracts front the evidence given before the committee in question. Major Wilcox examined as to the condition of the state of the population in Limerick county, stated, what? that they were living in good log houses? with so many acres of land around them, and every day bettering their condition? No; but that hordes of these unfortunate paupers were living amidst bogs, with no other covering but sedge; and very little of that. Mr. Dunn, of Queen's county, deposed, that there was a great want of

499
employment throughout the county, and wages at only from 4d. to 5d. a-day. The Knight of Kerry said, that the poor people in his neighbourhood were glad to go a long way from their homes to procure employment, by which they earned no more than two-pence a-day. He believed that, as a general position, these facts might be somewhat over-stated; but he knew that starvation existed to a great extent in Ireland. He did not say that men died from actual famine; but he stated, without the fear of contradiction, that the privations which the people of that country endured diminished their strength and shortened their lives. Whatever notions might be formed of the appearance of his countrymen, who, when they came over here, plumped up and soon seemed to be in good condition, he could assure the House, that in Ireland their gaunt forms and lantern features indicated, beyond all question, that they endured the extremity of human misery. The consequence of this state of suffering and degradation was, that they were always ready to indulge in any golden dream which promised them relief from their present misery; and that when any man spoke of change—since to them no change could be for the worse—he found ready listeners. It was one of the results of this state of things that had caused so extensive an emigration to Scotland, the greater part of the west of which was peopled by Irishmen. But, in fact, the Irish by doing this were now only returning a visit which they had had the honour of receiving about two centuries ago from the Scotch, whose habits of industry and regularity were to this day apparent in the spots where they had taken up their abode. But it was not to Scotland alone that the evil effects of the redundancy of the population in Ireland extended themselves. None of the steam-packets came from Ireland to Liverpool, without bringing some of the people of the former country, who could now procure a passage for 4d. or 5d. per head. The consequence must be, that the same results would be experienced here as in Ireland; labourers would be to be had for 4d. or 5d. a-day, and not only the labouring people would be reduced to a state of want and privation similar to that, which was felt in Ireland, but the moral feelings and the ways of thinking and acting of the people would be reduced to that standard which, he
500
was ashamed to admit, existed in Ireland. The evil would then, and at no distant period, be felt and complained of in England, as it was already felt and complained of in Scotland. What, then, must be done with it? Honourable gentlemen said, "do nothing, and it will cure itself." What! let famine and pestilence do their work? Leave such a state of things alone, and leave the wretched people who suffered under it to die by starvation or disease! And this because it was thought the evil would cure itself; that in a few years improvident marriages would cease, and all would be well again! But, what was the fact? The population of Ireland had doubled within the last twenty-one years, and was still increasing. This reasoning was altogether false—false as applied to Ireland, because it was opposed to facts; and false a priori, as applied to any country; for when people were sunk into distress and want, they became desperate and reckless of all consequences. The evidence, too, of Dr. Doyle, stated that the people congregated together for the purpose of keeping up the animal heat in the inclement season, and by this, means also the population was increased. It was true that money had been sent from this country to Ireland in great abundance, in times of distress; but that money had all been laid out to relieve men who were starving, and the benefit was in no way permanent, but the reverse; because, when the money was gone, the people were not even where they were before, but by so much the worse from the encouragement which that relief had afforded them to increase their numbers. There was, then, no alternative but emigration. He was asked, what security he could offer to the House, that when even this had been adopted, to whatever extent, the country would not still be in the situation of the fifty daughters of an unfortunate gentleman, who were doomed to fill tubs from which the water escaped as fast as they poured it into them, and that although they might be always changing, they would never lower the level of the population. The security which he had to offer was that which had arisen from the experience of the Irish land-holders, and which had taught them to adopt a different method of letting their farms. They had found out, that to consolidate their estates was better than to subdivide them. Many landlords in

501
Ireland had anxiously endeavoured to better the condition of their tenantry by allotting their farms on more advantageous terms than formerly; but, with the best intentions, they had failed to effect their object. It was found necessary, therefore, to introduce into Ireland a new law, called the law of landlord and tenant; which was now working its progress, but without any beneficial results. He knew at that moment, a gentleman who possessed an estate of six thousand acres, four thousand of which were unprofitable bog. On the remaining two thousand acres there were upwards of three thousand unhappy peasants settled, whose means of living were as scanty as the space which they occupied was confined. The hon. member for Wicklow said, "leave the Irish peasants where they are." But, what was to become of their still increasing families? How were they to be provided for? "How," said the hon. member, "but by consolidating farms, and abandoning that ruinous system of subdivision, which had too long brought misery and distress upon the country." But the House should look to the situation of the unfortunate Irish peasants, if that plan were followed. Driven from their native haunts, they would soon be dispersed through the country, seeking for employment, without food or shelter. They would live in the open air, or build themselves miserable dwellings on the backs of ditches, sustaining nature with whatever chance provided. In this state, were they not wandering at present to Glasgow and other places, where at last, overcome by want and misery, they perished; thus swelling, to a fearful extent, the ranks of sickness and death? Was it not, therefore, the bounden duty of the legislature to prevent that unnatural, that frightful stream of want, misery, and pauperism, from flowing over to this country from unfortunate Ireland, and thus arresting the progress of disease and death in all their dreadful malignity?
Mr. Baringobserved, that whoever had listened to the able speech of the hon. Secretary opposite must be aware, that it was not proposed to do any thing specific in this matter, without its coming under the consideration of the House. Whatever the fancies, then, that any particular gentleman might have, there was no reason to fear that they would be carried into effect without the consent of the House.
502
It appeared to him, that this was a great national question; and, indeed, it did not stand in need of demonstration, that whatever affected Ireland, must also affect England, and the empire at large; and he was sure, that whatever lukewarmness might be evinced by the members of his majesty's government, in apparently leaving the hon. gentleman who had opened the discussion, in the lurch, in the manner they had done, it was not because they did not feel the force of an evil which threatened the safety of the country, but because they doubted of any real remedy from emigration. Either they did not think it would operate sensibly upon the mass of redundant population, or that the expense rendered it impracticable. But, when he heard the hon. member for Bristol oppose the scheme of emigration, by contrasting the condition of the people who lived on their farms in Upper Canada, with that of the wretched peasantry of Ireland, he confessed it gave him surprise. He spoke from his own knowledge when he said, that he had seen thousands of these settlers, and that a more prosperous, healthy, and comfortable peasantry were not to be found in any part of the globe. There was, of course, a good deal of privation and hardship to be encountered at the outset; and, for four or five years, a good deal of hard labour. But, at the end of a year or two, the settler could obtain his subsistence, and at the end of four or five years, his situation was enviable, compared with that of the labourer in England. The great labour consisted in cutting down the wood; but when fifteen or twenty acres were cleared, there was enough for one man to grow his corn upon, out of a soil such as hon. gentlemen knew not the like of for richness. An hon. gentleman had said, that there was a six months' winter in Canada; but this was an egregious mistake, for the average winter was three months at the utmost. Therefore, as far as regarded the question of personal comfort, hon. gentlemen might feel themselves quite easy, and rest assured that the emigrants would be taken out of a vast mass of misery, dependence, and consequent ignorance, and converted into a race of prosperous and rational beings. As a benefit to Ireland, it was impossible not to see that the elevation in the scale of human beings, which would follow upon the contemplated removal, would be an t act of the greatest charity. What the

503
means were by which an object so desirable, could be effectually accomplished, was; another consideration; and, although there might be differences of opinion as to the extent to which relief should be afforded, still it was quite clear, that whatever plan ' should be finally adopted, and however limited that plan might be, it could not fail of doing good. He confessed, with some degree of compunction, that he had not attended the emigration committee; last year as often as he ought to have done; and he was, therefore, not so conversant with the subject in its different bearings as its importance required. The hon. Secretary had, as he understood, brought forward the present motion with I a view not only to learn the feelings of the House upon it, but also to ascertain how far the country at large was interested in the discussion. The first consideration undoubtedly was, whether any expense to, which the country could go, would open a vein sufficiently large to have any effect upon the overloaded state of the population. Upon this point, he was satisfied; that the excess of population was by no means so great as was supposed. He meant to say, that he was sure that twenty or thirty thousand in Ireland were capable of creating all the misery of which they I had been witnesses; and that to abstract any portion of these, would be a positive benefit. The beneficial operation of a system of emigration was seen in an empire like Russia, where there was a great extent of territory. In America, also, the population was continually spreading itself, and might continue so to do, till they reached the shores of the Pacific Ocean. Perhaps, indeed, there was too great an extension of the population in America for the purposes of civilization, and that the size of her territory was rather an evil which prevented that moderate degree of, compression, which, under all circumstances, would be desirable; but, the people of the United States took long journies, and at considerable expense, to make new settlements. From New York they went to the back part of Pennsylvania, and even to the Mississipi, and the Ohio Now, no man went from Massachusetts even to the Ohio who did not incur four times the expense, and far more trouble, than would be incurred in bringing a man from the coast of Ireland to Canada. He had seen many of the caravans which annually traversed the woods of America,
504
in long and painful journies, for the back settlements; and, although these emigrations were always to the relief of the hives from which they swarmed, the individuals who removed their families in this manner, did so at considerably greater expense than, with the convenience of water carriage, could be accomplished in the case of Ireland. The passage by water would serve almost the whole distance up the river St. Lawrence, and then for two or three thousand miles further.—The more the plan was looked into, the more practicable he was convinced it would appear. To be sure it could not be done without much expense; but when it was considered, that half a million of money was subscribed by England for the alleviation of a temporary evil under which Ireland was suffering, it would appear obvious, that if the public were fully impressed with the permanent advantage of removing the redundant population of that country, humanity would prompt to its accomplishment, letting alone policy. As to that part of the plan which anticipated the receipt of any repayment on the part of the settlers, he could not regard that as much better than visionary. From his knowledge of the settlers, they were not persons much given to the payment of money. Promises they would give, but to make them pay was not so easy. And, indeed, to attempt it would be impolitic, inasmuch as it would furnish a strong inducement to throw off the allegiance to the mother country. It was always impolitic to give to a whole people an interest to throw off allegiance; and in this case, perhaps, to turn their shillelaghs against us on the other side of the Atlantic. The eagerness with which the state of Virginia entered into the revolution was attributable to the debts which the leading members of it owed to the merchants of England in their commercial dealings. As to that part of the plan proposed in the report, respecting the granting of annuities by parishes, to raise money for the endowment of their emigrant paupers, he thought that would encounter many difficulties. He was not, however, afraid as some wore, that the void created by the draughting off of the paupers would be forthwith filled up by others. Farmers in general were a great deal too sharp to let strangers make settlements in their parishes. All these topics, however, would be better discussed in the committee,—He could not conclude with-

505
out giving credit to the zeal and talent of the hon. gentleman who had brought the subject forward; and if the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department would only come into the committee with them, he could assure him that he would there find that the plan was not so visionary as many persons were disposed to consider it. To carry it into effect, it would be absolutely necessary that the restrictive laws upon captains of ships, in respect of emigrants, should be repealed at the outset.
Mr. W. Hortonobserved, that the restrictions to which the hon. member alluded were removed.
Mr. Baringin continuation observed, that if something like a bounty were given to captains of ships conveying emigrants, it might operate as a stimulus to their exertions to promote the comfort and convenience of those whom they conveyed. Some suitable preparations should also be made to provide for the reception of the emigrants on arriving at their destination. Care should be taken that they should be sent with all convenient facility to whatever settlement they were intended for, otherwise a great deal of inconvenience might arise. In Quebec, for instance, which contained a limited population, the introduction of a large number of emigrants might create a serious injury. The means of conveying persons up the country were of late considerably improved, and some method could most likely be adopted, by which emigrants could be removed tip the country without inconveniencing the residents. Preparations should also be made for the reception of the emigrants when they arrived at their final destination. Without some precautions of the nature he suggested, considerable confusion and inconvenience would, in all likelihood, occur. The Cape of Good Hope, and the new Spanish colonies afforded facilities for emigration, if the same precautions were observed there that he had just suggested. The hon. gentleman concluded by observing, that the country was very much indebted to the zeal and talents displayed by the hon. Secretary for the colonies in bringing forward the present motion.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, he felt anxious, in consequence of the personal reference which the hon. gentleman had made to him, to explain his views and feelings with respect to the important subject now
506
before the House; and he hoped his hon. friend the colonial Secretary would do him the justice to say, that he had always taken a warm and lively interest in the present question, whatever the hon. gentleman who last addressed the House might infer to the contrary. If he had taken rather a medium view of the question—if he had not advocated it in a way that its supporters might have wished—he hoped he should not, therefore, be accused of displaying apathy and coldness towards the question. His hon. friend who had introduced the measure, knew that he had frequently and anxiously consulted with him on the subject of emigration. In the view which he had taken of the question, it struck him forcibly that it was essential to success not to proceed at first on a scale of emigration too extensive and magnificent, but rather to proceed by a rational and quiet mode to effect the object in view. That there were facilities for carrying the plans proposed into execution none could deny. His noble friend at the head of the colonial department, his hon. friend who had brought forward the present motion, and himself had had repeated interviews on the subject; the result of which was, that a gentleman, colonel Cockburn, whose zeal and talents were unquestionable, had gone out to Nova Scotia and elsewhere, for the purpose of personally observing how far the proposed plans of emigration were likely to succeed. He had instructions to extend his inquiries to various subjects connected with the agricultural prospects of those places which he was to visit, and to make observations respecting the quality of the different lands pointed out for settlers. He was further instructed to make a full report of every thing connected with the subject that fell within his observation, so that government might have some rational ground on which to erect whatever plans it might adopt with regard to the subject of emigration. Before the committee closed its labours, he hoped that the report from the gentleman referred to would appear, in order to furnish fresh evidence on which to found whatever proceedings the committee might ultimately adopt. His hon. friend proposed no plan at present. He merely threw out suggestions for the consideration of the House. And what was the amount of the objections raised by the hon. member for Wicklow? Why, that the House should abandon the plan proposed by his

507
hon. friend, because it did not go far enough for his purpose. But, if the suggestion of the hon. gentleman were to be acted upon, the House might abandon, in utter hopelessness, every plan that would be at all likely to alleviate that deep-seated distress which could never be sufficiently deplored. For himself, he was of opinion, that a rational system of emigration would lead to effects the most beneficial to the country, by affording facilities to its impoverished inhabitants of bettering their condition. And it was idle to deny that we must expect a redundancy of hands, in a country where mechanical science was carried to such a pitch of perfection. The effect of the recent improvements in machinery was, to throw upon the country a vast number of men who had hitherto supported themselves by labour. Such, for instance, had been the effect of the discovery of the power loom. It threw out of employment hundreds of thousands; if, therefore we were to go on improving in mechanics, as we had heretofore done, our working population must be thrown out of employment, according as new inventions sprung up to supersede the labour of man. Would it not, therefore, be an object the most desirable, that some good and efficient plan should be adopted, by which those poor unemployed persons might be rescued from a state of wretchedness and want, and raised to a race of happy and contented beings? He thought that, by making an outlet for the redundant population, permanent relief would be afforded to Ireland; for she would then be enabled to carry into effect the good she had already begun, by breaking up the system of division in the laud, by which a man, perhaps, and his five sons, were wretched landowners rather than comfortable labourers. But, in order to effect this improvement, the impediment of a large pauper population must be removed. It was dear, then, that the amendment, which went to shut out inquiry, was not such as the House should attend to.—He was not then prepared to pronounce any opinion upon the two suggestions which had been commented upon by hon. members in the course of the debate; namely, the requiring from parishes to pay to government a remuneration for the expenses incurred in taking out the labourers, and thereby lessening the poor-rates; and the repayment of a sum of money from the emigrants themselves in the shape of quit rent. He
508
should merely say, that they were questions deserving the most serious, minute, and attentive, consideration of a committee; but he should be sorry to pronounce any positive opinion which could, by any possibility, prejudice the discussion of those two measures. It appeared to him that, for the first experiment, men of fair and honest characters, and of industrious habits, ought to be selected, and if the parishes were to pay a certain sum for each labourer who should be sent out by the government, he was not prepared to say that the parish would select the most active and industrious parishioners for emigration. He did think, that the most minute inquiry ought to be made into the state of health, and into the habits, of every man selected by the parish, before he was sent out by the government; and also, whether the legal expenses which would be necessarily incurred by the payment of the money by the parishes, with other circumstances, would not counterbalance any good which could arise, even if both parties—the payers of the poor-rates, and the persons receiving those rates—should consent (and the consent of both parties would be absolutely necessary) as to the persons who should emigrate. Even in that case, the obstacles which would encumber the plan, might make it so difficult of execution, that he was not prepared to say that they were not deserving of the most serious consideration of a committee. Those difficulties would not be applicable to Ireland, because, in that country, there were no poor-rates; and, with respect to emigration from Ireland, some other method must necessarily be devised. As to the other suggestion, of requiring from the emigrants compensation for the expense incurred by government, it deserved serious consideration, whether or not the discouraging prospect of re-payment, before the eyes of the emigrant, might not operate as a temptation to him to quit his farm after he had exhausted it, and before the period of repayment should have arrived. It also deserved serious and minute consideration, whether, in case the scheme of emigration should be carried to a great extent, the government might not be amply repaid by another method, different from either of the two to which he had alluded. What could be more fair, than reserving to the government a portion of land, in the midst of the lauds granted to the emigrants. It was

509
worthy of consideration, whether or not the government would, by a sale of those lands, in the course of ten or twelve years—when the lands on all sides of it should have been brought into a good state of cultivation, and when those lands allotted to the government would acquire a value, which they never would have acquired, if the surrounding lands were not in a state of cultivation—be repaid the capital advanced to the emigrants, for the purpose of cultivating their grants. He mentioned, this merely to show, that if the plan of repayment by the emigrants was encumbered with difficulties, that the government might, not necessarily be induced to give up the general policy of the measure, but that other plans might be devised, which would hold out, not an immediate, but a distant and certain prospect of repayment. It appeared to him, that the discussion upon the question ought to be reserved until after all those difficulties had been inquired into, and minutely examined by a committee, and some precise plan had been laid before the House. He had been induced, to take that opportunity of stating these slight qualifications with which he gave his assent to the plan of his lion, friend, the colonial Secretary, and he trusted, that it would not be thought that the stating of those qualifications and difficulties proceeded from the slightest want of interest on his part in the proceeding; which, with certain reservations, had his most cordial concurrence.
Mr. Humecontended, that to employ 20,000,000 l. in carrying to a foreign country one out of every eighteen members of our population, was a wasteful employment of the public capital, inasmuch as the void occasioned by such a measure would be made up in three years. In proof of his position, the lion, member read an extract from the evidence attached to the Report on Emigration; from which it appeared, that the void which had been occasioned in the population of the village of Marsden, in Kent, by the emigration of fifty-two of its inhabitants (which was one in eight), had been immediately made up by the arrival of fresh labourers from other places. He likewise argued, from the evidence of colonel Cockburn, that at the end of seven years from their first settlement, the emigrants would not be able to repay to government, or their parishes, the expenses of their emigration. The practical result of this project might be, to
510
send away beggars from England, to make beggars of those who remained behind; I for what other result could follow from sending 20,000,000 l. out of the country, which, if left in, would be expended in some way or other among the working classes? Employment must always be in proportion to capital, and when so much floating capital was withdrawn from circulation, a proportionate quantity of employment must be withdrawn from the labouring part of the community. From all the information which he had been able to I obtain, he was convinced that this project, would, both immediately and ultimately, be a losing concern to the country. It had been said, however, that it would lead to increased prosperity. Now, if 20,000,000 l. were to be divided in this country among the persons whom it was destined to take from it, it would produce to them an annuity of 15 l. a year, and would keep them in comparative comfort. Besides, the evils of Ireland could not be; cured by emigration. The system which prevailed in that country was bad, and required a stronger cure than that of emigration. If the House wished emigration to be productive of any good effect, they must repeal the absurd restrictions which they had placed upon it. At present, no emigrants could go direct to the United States. They must proceed thither by way of Canada, a regulation which imposed an additional expense of 10 l. upon every person emigrating. The restrictions, however, were as useless in practice, as they were absurd in theory; for it appeared by returns published by the Emigration Society at Quebec, that out of one hundred and nine thousand emigrants who had arrived within the few last years in Canada from Great Britain and Ireland, only ten thousand were then resident in that country, and that the remainder of them had proceeded to the United States. Whilst he made these objections to the plans now proposed, he thought it right to state, that he was anxious to promote emigration upon sound principles, and to add, I that the sentiments expressed by the hon. mover and seconder of the amendment were such as the House ought to follow; for if the committee was to do nothing more than bring in some measure, which was then to be postponed till next session, it would, by keeping the parties in suspense, aggravate the evil which it was intended to remove. He would not object to the

511
committee, though he was fully convinced that none of the plans which had been that night alluded to would be found beneficial. Useful information, however, might be elicited by a committee; and to the eliciting of such information he had always been, and always should be, friendly.
Mr. Wilmot Horton, in reply, said, that honourable members who had come down to that House, and attacked his plans, had evidently not read the printed report, upon which his measures were founded. Before he answered the attack made upon him by the hon. member for Bristol, he begged leave to notice an observation made by the hon. member who had just sat down, who had contrasted his opinion with those of his right hon. friend, the Secretary of State for the Home Department. He did not see that there was any difference of opinion between him and his right hon. friend. He might, individually, entertain opinions in detail, different from those of his right hon. friend, but, upon the general policy of emigration, he agreed with his right hon. friend, that it would be highly advantageous to the country and to the emigrants, and that the best means of securing the greatest benefit, advantage, and comfort, for them, could be ascertained only in a committee. He begged to remind the hon. members who were opposed to his plans, that there was a tribunal without, as welt as within, the walls of that House, and by that tribunal, the tribunal of public opinion, he had no objection to have his plans, and his arguments in support of them, as well as the arguments of the hon. member, judged. As the hon. member for Aberdeen had spoken of "sound principles," he would state to the House something which had passed between him and that hon. member. That hon. member had told him, upon a former occasion, that his plans were contrary to "sound principles;" and, in support of his statement, he had quoted the authority of a well-known writer on Political Economy, Mr. M'Culloch. Now, would the hon. member give him credit in future for sound principles, when he told him that he had drawn up thirty questions upon this subject with care and attention; that they had been submitted one by one to Mr. M'Culloch, and that Mr. M'Culloch had answered them in a manner perfectly accordant to the view which he (Mr. Horton) had taken of them in that House?
512
He implored the House not to be put down by any cant about sound principles; nor to confide exclusively in the views either of speculative or of practical men. The wisest plan would be to look attentively at both, and to decide as circumstances warranted. He was happy to say that speculative men were not hostile to the views which he entertained on this subject, and that several practical men warmly supported them. But let that be as it might, he was ready to abide by public opinion as to the correctness of his principles on this subject, which he had long considered with deep anxiety. He must complain of the hon. member for Bristol, for having drawn, as an inference from the fact of some of the settlers in Canada having had the ague in 1825, that the plan of emigration acted upon in 1823 had failed. If the hon. member would look to page 290 of the printed report, he would find there was a most elaborate and minute statement relative to the settlers who went to Canada. Their numbers, their names, the deaths, the produce of the land, the number of acres brought into cultivation, were stated and opposite to the name of each settler, was a minute statement of his stock, and the number of acres cultivated by him. He pledged himself to prove before the committee, that the value of the property belonging to the settlers located by Mr. Robinson, amounted to 7,000 l. Mr. Robinson, in 1823, located one hundred and eighty-two families, one hundred and twenty of whom were living on their grants in 1825, and only one had returned to Ireland. With respect to the opinion of colonel Cockburn, he could lay before the committee the colonel's recantation of that opinion. In that recantation he stated, that, at the time he expressed the opinion, he was satisfied of its truth, relying, as he did, upon the information which he had received from others respecting those settlers; but that, when it was proved to him, by documents, that those statements were unfounded, he had no hesitation in withdrawing his previous opinion. He denied that colonel Cockburn had ever said, that the emigrants could not procure a market for their commodities if emigration were continued. Every succeeding lot of emigrants would create a market for the produce of the former emigrants, provided emigration were continued on a regular plan. He begged leave to call the attention of the hon. member for

513
Bristol to what was stated in the Appendix respecting desultory emigration without capital. Was that lion, member aware of the deprivations endured by such emigrants? In the Report of the Quebec Emigrant Association, it was stated, that those emigrants were employed in breaking stones upon the road, as the association had resolved not to give any relief in the shape of money to able-bodied men. The complaint of those emigrants was the same as that which they had expressed at home; namely, want of employment. Such was the situation of settlers without capital; and such would be the situation of those men whom the hon. member proposed to set down in Canada, by the cheapest mode of conveyance from Ireland. How, he asked, was it possible for men thus thrown down, without capital, to prosper in a new country? He could assure the House, that the opinion in North America, respecting such emigration, was not such as had been stated by the hon. member for Bristol. The opinion entertained by all classes in North America, from lord Dalhousie down to the humblest individual, was, that "if we adopted emigration without capital, and the emigrants were to depend upon chance for employment, our plans of emigration would fail; and that the prosperity of the emigrants depended upon capital." The questions to be considered by the committee would be, whether repayment of the expense incurred by government, in making an advance of capital to the emigrants, was practicable, or whether the emigrants should be sent out wholly unprovided with capital. When he looked to the published evidence, he looked with confidence to the decision of the committee in favour of his pinions. He, for one, was glad that the evidence before the committee, and the plans of government, were published, because the publication would induce the public to turn their attention to the subject; and, by this means, suggestions would be made, which would enable parliament to come to a sound and practical conclusion.
The Amendment was negatived without a division. After which the original motion was agreed to, and a Committee appointed.

COMMITTEES OF APPEALS ON PRIVATE BILLS.
Mr. Littletonsaid, that the machinery of the resolutions which he had
514
formerly introduced, relative to appeals on private bills, would be incomplete, if the House did not sanction an additional resolution, subjecting the party appealing to the payment of all costs and expenses, in case the committee of appeal declared the petition to be frivolous and vexatious. It was necessary that the-House should do this with as little delay as possible, because he knew that one report at least was about to be presented, relative to which it was probable there would be an appeal. He had, some time since, proposed two measures for the purpose of carrying his object into effect. One was, to compel the petitioner to enter into recognizances to defray such costs as might have been incurred before the committee, in case the appeal should be considered frivolous and vexatious. Some gentlemen, however, especially those of the learned profession, had objected to this, on the ground, that there existed no precedent, where one branch of the legislature assumed the power of taking money from individuals. In all cases of that nature, it was observed, it must be the concurrent act of the three estates. He had next proposed, that the party or parties appealing should deposit a certain sum of money to meet the expenses incurred if the appeal should be considered frivolous and vexatious. Against that, however, it was objected, that where the parties were, poor, the call for a deposit of money would effectually prevent the appeal, let the grounds of it be ever so just. He had, therefore, in the interval since the former resolutions were carried, endeavoured to collect the opinions of the gentlemen (especially of the legal profession) who had objected to these two propositions; and he had now their concurrence in the propriety of the resolution which he was about to lay before the House. His proposition was, that one or more of the parties appealing should enter into a penal bond, for a certain sum, covenanting to defray such costs and charges as might he incurred by the other side, in case the committee of appeal reported the petition to be frivolous and vexatious. The hon. gentleman then moved, "That no proceeding shall be had on any petition so referred to a Select Committee, unless the petitioner, or one of the petitioners, in case there be more than one, shall, within two days after presenting such petition, or within such further time as

515
shall be limited by the House, enter into a bond or obligation to the agent or agents, or sonic person named for that purpose by the agent or agents of the opposite party or parties, according to a form to be approved of by the Chief Clerk, or one of the Clerks Assistants of this House, in the penal sum of 500 l. and with two sufficient sureties, to be approved of by one of the said Clerks in the penal sum of 250 l. each, conditional, to be void, in case the said Petitioner, or Petitioners shall duly pay all costs, charges and expenses of the party or parties who shall appear before the House in opposition to such petition (such costs, charges, and expenses to be found and assessed by one of the Clerks of this House, for the time being) in case the said Select Committee shall report to the House that the said Petition appeared to them to be frivolous and vexatious."
Mr. G. Bankeswas anxious that the question, which was of considerable importance, should be postponed to another night, in order that it might be properly discussed. In his opinion, the objections which were raised against the resolution which called on parties to enter into recognizances, applied with equal strength to the present proposition. If a man was poor, he could not enter honestly into a bond for 500 l., since he knew that if the committee voted his petition frivolous and vexatious, he could not meet it: and thus the right of appeal was virtually denied to him. Besides, how could they expect a poor man to procure two sureties in 250 l. each? The resolution gave a great advantage to the rich man, while it precluded the poor man from seeking redress. In fact, he thought it was very unjust to impose on individuals the necessity of entering into such a bond. He did not wish that the expenses attending the private business of the House should be increased. On the contrary, fie hoped they might be lessened; and if no other member made the attempt, he would hereafter bring before the House some proposition with the view of effecting; a diminution of the expenses attendant on private bills. He was convinced that such expenses frequently operated as impediments to improvements in the country. To effect such diminution of the expenses would not affect the officers of the House, as they were not paid by fees; those fees going to a treasury fund. The expenses
516
frequently operated as reasons for not applying for bills, or for not coining to the House to renew most useful acts respecting roads, &c. The parties were deterred by the expenses; they being 500 l. or 600 l. for each bill. There was no necessity for the enormous expense to which parties were now exposed. On account of the importance of the present proposition, and that it might be considered before a fuller House, he would move, "That the Debate be adjourned to Monday."
Mr. Alderman Waithmanobserved, that the expenses incidental to getting private bills through the House were enormous; and, instead of increasing them, some means ought to be devised for reducing them. He was of opinion that the debate ought to be adjourned.
Mr. Littletonsaid, that the House could not be considered to be taken by surprise, as the measure had already been discussed twice. He understood also, that it had been agreed to in its present shape, by those gentlemen who, on the former occasions, objected to its adoption. He was anxious that the measure should be speedily disposed of, as he understood there were several reports ready to be brought up, and that in one of them an appeal was to occur. As the resolution did not possibly impose any grievance, but merely specified the mode in which a favour was to be granted, he was determined to take the sense of the House on the question.
Mr. Batleyagreed with the hon. member for Corfe Castle in thinking the measure impolitic. It might also have the additional inconvenience of bringing the privileges of the House in contact with a court of law.
Mr. S. Bournethought that all scruples on legal points might be silenced, when it was recollected, that the resolution was drawn up by the Attorney-general. Unless this resolution was carried, the other measure of the hon. member would be incomplete.
The House divided: For the Resolution 32. For the Adjournment 10.