Commons Sitting of 30 November 1826

ARMY COMMISSIONS.
Mr. Humerose, pursuant to notice, to bring before the attention of the House a subject of considerable importance, in moving for returns of all officers who have been permitted to sell their full-pay, half-pay, and brevet commissions, since the last return in March; also a return of the money received and paid for the same. It would be necessary for him to recall the attention of the House to the steps taken by a noble lord (Castlereagh), now no more, in the year 1817, exertions in which the House anxiously co-operated, to establish a distinction between the effective and non-effective military establishments, and to provide means for the support of non-effective establishments, in such a manner as might relieve the country from maintaining them as a heavy and permanent burthen. In 1817, as appeared from an abstract of the amount of half-pay, superannuated allowances, civil and military, the amount chargeable to the army was 2,800,000 l.; and, so far from a decrease having taken place in these allowances since that period, there had been, on the contrary, a very considerable increase. He would not go so far back in his calculations as 1817; and would only remark upon the statement he had just made, that, unless some controlling check was exercised to keep down the expense of this and other departments connected with the non-effective force of the country by those who had the management and direction of them, it was impossible that the expenditure should be ever constrained within due and proper limits. The period which he would select for a comparison with the present, as to the amount of the charge of the dead-weight, was the year 1822, when Mr. Vansittart brought before parliament the notable expedient to pay

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for the dead-weight, whereby it was proposed, that by the decrease of life, which was likely to be the more rapid in a department connected with services in foreign countries, it would be gradually decreased, and finally annihilated. At the time of the bringing in of the deadweight bill by that right hon. gentleman in 1822, the half-pay and retired superannuated military allowances were 2,907,835 l. Now, in 1817, the amount chargeable under the same head, was 2,800,000 l., and at that time, the House would bear in mind that lord Castlereagh had said, that after twenty years of war, we were necessarily encumbered with a large half-pay list, which, by the prolonged continuance of peace would naturally be diminished, and consequently the charge of maintaining them. Taking the years 1822 and 1825 to shew what a little tendency there was to a reduction of this charge upon the nation, it appeared that the charge of the half-pay and retired superannuated allowances, in 1822, was 2,907,835 l.—in 1825, 2,906,940 l. The charge under this head, together with the charges under the head of Navy, Ordnance, civil, and miscellaneous departments, in these two years 1822 and 1825, shewed, that, instead of a decrease, there was a great and material increase. The account stood thus: dead-weight in 1822, 5,289,087 l. — dead-weight in 1825, 5,302,499 l.—increase, 13,412 l. Now, this showed a clear tendency to an increase of the dead-weight, although assurances at the time of the introduction of this notable expedient were held out, that there would be an annual diminution of the charge of at least 5 per cent. Calculations were also at the time laid before the House from the Tontine Tables. These calculations were prepared by Mr. Finlayson, a clerk in the Sinking Fund Office, and by these calculations the country were induced to believe, that in forty-four years the whole of the deadweight would be annihilated by the gradual decrement, by death, of the persons to whom the allowances out of it were payable. Lord Castlereagh held out a still further reduction, not only by the decrease consequent upon death, but by the transfer of officers from half to full pay, according as vacancies might fall, to afford opportunity for such transfer. But what was the fact? The half-pay, in 1817, was 647,922 l. It increased in 1818 to
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651,903 l.; in 1819 to 737,372 l.; in 1820 to 783,387 l.; in 1821 to765,781 l.; and it went on increasing, in like manner, till 1825, when it amounted to 100,000 l. more than it was in 1817. And this, although the report of the finance committee stated, that by the year 1821 a reduction on that branch of the expenditure might be expected of five per cent.— There was another novel practice to which the attention of the House ought to be called. He meant that of allowing officers on half-pay to sell their commissions. Whether the half-pay had been granted as a reward for past services, or as a retaining fee for renewed services, up to the year 1825, it had never been understood that the half-pay was a permanent charge on the country, or that those by whom it was enjoyed had any thing beyond a life-interest in it. By general orders from the Horse Guards, of the 2nd of May, 1825, and the 25th of April, 1826, officers on half-pay were empowered to sell their commissions, as unattached half-pay commissions, provided they were not above sixty years of age, that they had purchased their commissions, and that they had served twenty years in the whole, if lieutenant-colonels, majors, or captains; fifteen years, if lieutenants; or twelve years, if ensigns. The result had been highly detrimental to the public; for it appeared, that twenty-four lieutenant-colonels, forty-five majors, one hundred and eighty-two captains, sixty-one lieutenants, and fifty-eight ensigns, on half-pay, had sold out. Of those officers, who had thus sold out, there were four lieutenant-colonels, five majors, seventeen captains, and numerous lieutenants and ensigns who had been on the army-list for forty years; eleven of the officers, who had sold out, had been on the army-list above forty-five years; and two above fifty years. And to whom had these commissions been sold? Principally to young men who had been only a few years in the army. The consequence was, that the public, who had been paying this half-pay for twenty, thirty, or forty years, had entailed upon them, by this novel order from the Horse Guards, another payment, in many cases, of twenty, thirty, or forty years; thus perpetuating a description of allowance which was intended to terminate with the lives of those to whom it had been granted. The standing on the list of the army, of the

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twenty-lour lieutenant-colonels who had sold their half-pay commissions, was on an average thirty-two years; whilst the average standing of the purchasers was only twenty years: the sellers of the forty-five majorities had served on an average thirty-one years, whilst the purchasers had served only fourteen years: the sellers of the one hundred and eighty-two half-pay companies had served on the average twenty-six years, whilst the purchasers had served only 8¾ years; the sellers of sixty-one half-pay lieutenancies had served on the average 17½ years, while the purchasers had served only 2¾ years; and the sellers of the fifty-eight half-pay ensigncies had served, or been on the list, 16½ years, while the purchasers had not served one day. Now, the country lost the amount of difference between these two averages; for it was quite clear that, if the several officers in the list he had read had been obliged to retain their half-pay till their decease, the country might expect to be released from the weight of their half-pay many years sooner than it now could by the demise of the much younger men by whom they were replaced. The substitution of young lives for old was a plan which would have the necessary effect of perpetuating that burthen on the country; for, if it were allowed to the parties he had alluded to, to sell, he did not see why purchasers might not expect the same indulgence at some future period; and thus that which was in its institution intended to be temporary, might be made permanent.—Another practice connected with the army, which tended much to increase and continue the burthens of the country, was that of giving so many new commissions while the half-pay list continued as full as it did. It was, he was told, the prerogative of the Crown to issue such commissions. That might be true; but he would contend, that it was a gross abuse of this prerogative, that there should be six hundred promotions yearly, and that so very few of them should be from the half-pay. To let the House sec the extent to which this was carried, he would state, that when his majesty's ministers, in the year 1822, pledged themselves to the decrease of our military establishment, the number of officers from the rank of colonel to that of ensign on full pay, was 4,393; on half-pay 6,887; making a total of ll,280. It might naturally have been supposed,
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when the half-pay officers exceeded by a third the effective officers, that in all future promotions the officers would have been taken from the half-pay list; and, consequently, that the total number of officers would, at the present moment, be much smaller than in 1822. But what was the fact? It appeared that in the present year, 1826, though the number of officers on half-pay was only 6,373, being a diminution, as compared with the number in 1822, of 514; the number of officers on full-pay was 5,096; being an increase of 703. The aggregate number of officers at present therefore was, 11,469, being 219 more than in 1822. Was that a proof of the sincerity of the professions of economy and retrenchment which his majesty's government, in 1822, had returned in answer to the Address of the House of Commons? If the opinion of the committee of finance, that an annual reduction of 5 per cent might be justly expected to take place in the army list had been acted upon, that army list would now exhibit only 8,000 officers, instead of between 11 and 12,000. It would be easy to show that the public had been saddled with an expense of 100,000 l. a year by these unnecessary promotions. He had stated the numbers from the rank of colonel to that of ensign: the numbers of all ranks, from that of colonel down to that of apothecary's assistants, stood as follows:—In 1822, there were on full-pay, 5,379; on half-pay, 8,342; making a total of 13,721; in 1826 there were on full pay 6,173, on half-pay 7,666, making a total of 13,839; being an increase from the year 1822 of 118 officers of all ranks, from that of colonel to that of apothecary's assistant. Now, if his majesty's government had paid any ordinary attention to economy, could such a state of things have been permitted?—It had been said, that the practice which had been introduced was beneficial to grey-headed officers, men who had been many years in the service. From all that he could observe, the reverse was the case, and veterans benefitted very little indeed from it. It occasioned officers of twelve or fourteen years' standing to be superseded by individuals of only two or three years' service. Such a circumstance must be any thing but satisfactory to the army. It appeared, by a reference to a list in his possession, of a few of the officers of various ranks, who had been allowed to

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sell their half-pay commissions and retired full-pay, that lieutenant-colonel Cunningham, who was a lieutenant-colonel of the guards, at the age of thirty-two, a full colonel by brevet, and a general in the army, had been allowed to sell out, after having been forty-five years in the army, and twenty five years on half-pay; and had been allowed to sell all his commissions: that lieutenant-colonel M'Kenzie, after having been forty-six years an officer, had been allowed to sell all his commissions: that major M'Rea, who had been forty years on half-pay, after only three years of actual service, had been allowed to sell his half-pay commission. There were some cases still more surprising. General Clavering was promoted to be ensign, lieutenant, captain, and major, in 1794, and was put on half-pay in 1798; and yet was allowed to sell out in 1825. The same was the case with regard to several of the captains. He by no means imputed to the noble secretary at war, that he was actuated by any improper motives; but it was clear that in most, if not all, these cases, the officers who had sold out had been succeeded by young men. The plan, therefore, of thus allowing the half-pay to be sold, was nothing more nor less than a plan by which young officers were enabled to rise in the army over the heads of old ones; and no far from being lair or satisfactory, was distinctly the reverse. When it was considered, that the regular army in the united kingdom and the colonies amounted to 86,764, in the East Indies to 25,539, and engaged in recruiting to 476, making in the whole 114,779 men, it would be apparent, that if promotion were allowed to go on in the regular way, it would proceed with sufficient rapidity. It was true, that no officer was said to be allowed to purchase who was not at the time on full pay. But if he had merely attended the muster for a day or two, it was sufficient, and he might thus go on purchasing, step by step, until he had acquired what rank he wished. He did not say that the army ought not to be open to men of fortune; but he maintained, that throwing the door so widely open to patronage was extremely injurious in its effects on that House, as well as on the country. He had no hesitation in saving, that on several occasions members who had been disposed to support motions which he had made respecting the army, had not done so in consequence of their
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prospects, or those of their friends in that profession. He wished, therefore, that a check should be applied to the present system; and it was on the necessity for such a check that he grounded his present motions: one thing more he wished to state. In April, 1826, not satisfied with the enormous means of promotion which already existed, an order was issued from the horse guards, allowing regimental officers on full pay, who held brevet rank in the army superior to their regimental rank, to have the option of retiring upon an unattached commission on half-pay, of the next effective rank above that which they held regimentally; and permitting them afterwards, if so disposed, to avail themselves of the regulations of the preceding year, by selling that unattached half-pay commission. As long as such practices as these were permitted, it was impossible to expect that this part of our military expenditure could be materially diminished. He would now move for "Returns of all Officers who have sold, their Retired, Full-pay, or Half-pay Commissions, specifying their names, rank, when they obtained their first commission as ensign or cornet, and when placed on half-pay, and of what corps; whether they purchased any and how many of their commissions, and how long they served in each rank; and whether they ever were on foreign service, and how long—since the return to this House, dated Horse Guards, 31st March, 1826."
Lord Palmerstonsaid, that although he did not intend to object to the motion of the hon. member, he would remind the House of the peculiar circumstances which led to the regulation of 1825. The object of it was not so much to save money to the public as to give a scope for promotion in the army. The only expense which it could occasion was the contingent expense of substituting new lives for old ones, in some few isolated cases. The hon. member had objected to the largeness of the half-pay list; but he ought to have recollected, that a large half-pay list was the I necessary consequence of the large establishments which the country had been obliged to maintain during the long and arduous struggle in which it had been engaged. There were but two modes of diminishing that list; namely, the death of the individuals placed upon it, or their appointment to full-pay. Now the House must be aware, that among the retired

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officers on half-pay, there were many individuals who were neither desirous nor able to return to full-pay, and who were, consequently, in every sense of the words, a dead weight to the public. One object of the regulation was to enable such individuals to sell the annuities which they enjoyed to individuals who were fit to come upon full-pay, and so to effect a saving to the public. The cases referred to by the hon. member, of individuals who had retired upon half-pay, and who had been permitted to sell the annuities they so received, so far from being proofs of the regulation having been improperly acted upon, were proofs that it had produced all the advantageous results which had been anticipated from it; for it had enabled the country to get rid of a certain number of officers who were not eligible to situations on full-pay. He repeated, however, that the great object of the regulation had been to give scope for promotion in the army. Before that regulation was made, a great want of promotion had been deeply felt by the army. Officers of every rank had remained in their rank so long as to lose all hope of further preferment. Now, he contended that, unless the hope of promotion was given to the army, its military spirit would be damped, and it would cease to be that body which, in a constitutional sense, it ought to be. The regulation had, therefore, been most beneficial in its effects, by bringing into the ranks of the army officers who were qualified for their situations, and by giving to those officers a new and effective spur to the performance of their duties. The hon. member had also complained that persons of rank and family purchased promotion with much greater rapidity than it could be obtained by the usual routine of service. He would not deny that they did so: on the contrary, he would maintain, that it was a practice equally good in a military and in a constitutional point of view. He thought it was desirable to connect the higher classes of society with the army; and he did not know any more effective method of connecting them, than by allowing members of high families, who held commissions, to get on with greater rapidity than they would by mere seniority. This method of inducing men of family to enter into the service, was viewed, not with disgust, but with satisfaction, by the army. The hon. member had likewise said, that great partiality had been displayed in dis-
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posing of the patronage of the army, and that many of the hon. gentlemen who usually voted with him, were deterred from voting with him on subjects like the present, by the fears they entertained of retarding the promotion of their military relatives. Now, he really thought that the hon. member, if he made inquiry on his own side of the House, would find himself mistaken in that assertion. Indeed, he would appeal to the gentlemen opposite, and would ask them whether they believed that any regard was paid by his royal highness the commander-in-chief, in his disposal of military commissions, to the political opinions of those to whom they were given? He contended, that officers on the opposition side of the House received their fair share of promotion, and that the hon. gentleman, in denying it, was labouring under very considerable misapprehension. He believed it would be universally admitted, that no human being could dispose of the patronage of the army more fairly, more impartially, and more advantageously to the public service, than the present commander-in-chief. [Cheers from all parts of the House.] The hon. member had also said, that the power of issuing new commissions ought to cease, and that all vacant ensigncies should be filled up by ensigns taken from the half-pay. If such a proposition were to be adopted, the country would soon have an army inefficient for all warlike purposes. To call from half-pay to full-pay ensigns who had arrived at a mature period of life, and who were perhaps burthened with families, and living as they could in the country on the small pittance allowed them by the state,—to force such men to march about the country with their families, and perhaps to proceed with their regiments to foreign stations, would, instead of being a boon, be an infliction of positive injury upon them. The service would also receive as much injury as the individuals; for, instead of being provided with officers capable of rising from its lower to its higher grades, it would be filled with officers rendered by age incapable of exertion. Such a plan as the hon. member proposed was quite impracticable. Unless the vacant commissions were given to new officers, the connexion between the army and the upper classes of society would be dissolved, and then the army would assume a very dangerous and unconstitutional appear-

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ance. It was only when the army was unconnected with those whose property gave them an interest in the welfare of the country, and was commanded by unprincipled military adventurers, that it could ever become formidable to the liberties of the nation.—The noble lord then proceeded to show the absurdity of the hon. member's proposition to absorb the half-pay list entirely, by promoting the officers placed upon it to full-pay. The returns lately presented to parliament, respecting the disposal of vacant commissions, showed distinctly, that one out of every three was given to the half-pay list, and that that proportion was as much as could be granted without entirely crushing that list. He then explained the regulations recently made, as to the retirement of officers who held brevet rank in the army. It was proposed to let officers who held such rank retire on half-pay on unattached commissions, and to give them, in so doing, one step higher than the regimental rank to which they had reached. The proposition was agreed to, in order to relieve regiments of old officers, and to give them that promotion to which they were entitled by the length of their services. In conclusion, he contended, that both regulations were calculated to confer benefit on the state, and were not so disadvantageous, in a pecuniary point of view, as had been stated by the hon. member for Aberdeen.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, that he rose for the purpose of saying a word as to the manner in which the patronage of the army was exercised by the present commander-in-chief. He thought it right, as a member of opposition, to say, that he could bear testimony to the fair and impartial manner in which his royal highness, the duke of York, administered the patronage of the army. He could speak of it, not only with regard to his own family, but also with regard to the families of other opposition members with whom he was acquainted. It was impossible for any individual to dispose more impartially of patronage than his royal highness. If the manner in which the patronage of the army was disposed of were compared with the manner in which the patronage of the navy was disposed of, the comparison would be highly advantageous to the duke of York. He felt it to be his duty to make this statement, because he differed widely in general politics from his royal highness,
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and because he had been compelled, upon one occasion, to take a part that could not have failed to be personally offensive to the royal duke. Such a step on his part had made no difference in the conduct of his royal highness towards those members of his family who had entered into the army. With respect to the present system of promoting officers in the army, the mode of administering that system more than counterbalanced the expense which it entailed upon the country. It was impossible to have that class of persons which it was desirable to have in the military service, if they were to continue without promotion as long as the peace might last.
Sir R. Fergussonconcurred in every thing which had fallen from his hon. friend, respecting the impartiality with which his royal highness the duke of York administered the patronage of the army. The place which he had occupied for many years on the opposition benches, and which he expected he should retain as long as he had a seat in parliament, had never made any difference in the attention which his royal highness had thought fit to bestow on himself and the different members of his family who were in the army. If his political opinions had produced any effect on the royal duke's mind, he believed that it was to pay greater attention to him than he would, perhaps, have bestowed on a political adherent.
Sir C. Colesaid, he should not have troubled the House with any observations, had it not been for the attack which had been made on those who distributed the patronage of the navy. He conceived such attack to be most unfounded, and could bear testimony to the impartiality with which promotion was dispensed amongst the deserving officers of that service.
General Gascoynedefended the recent regulations. He contended, that there were not officers on the half-pay list sufficient to fill up the different situations of daily necessity. The half-pay list ought not to be considered as a matter of economy, so much as a matter of utility. Instead of placing officers from it upon the full-pay, it would often be more advantageous to the service to place officers upon it from the full-pay. There was, in one regiment, an ensign who was sixty-one years of age, and several officers who were not much younger. He defended the propriety of the regulation made re-

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specting officers who held brevet rank, The battle of Waterloo, which had given brevet rank to every officer of a certain rank who was present at it, had consider-ably increased the number of officers of that rank. Indeed, in some regiments, the number of brevet officers had been of great hindrance to the public service. In one regiment, out of eight captains, six held a higher brevet rank, and therefore, by the rules of the service, two of them were only liable to be called upon to perform the usual regimental duty. To get rid of this inconvenience, they were allowed to go on half-pay on their brevet rank; gaining, however, not more than one step above their regimental rank by so doing. He conceived such a measure to be no less useful to the public, than it was beneficial to the service, and advantageous to the officer who thought proper to retire.
The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. Hume, in proposing his next resolution, commented on the statement made by the gallant member for Liverpool; namely, that there was in the British army an ensign of sixty-one years of age. He would ask the gallant general how long that individual had served? Was it twenty, thirty, or forty years? Let it be which it might, the fact of his remaining an ensign after so long a period of service, was one of the greatest reproaches that could be uttered against the management of the army. He had never accused the duke of York of partiality in administering the patronage of the army. On the contrary, he had admitted that it was fairly exercised, and had said that it was not to the man, but to the system that he objected. All he had done was, to object to his having the power of bestowing patronage, and in such a channel as increased the half-pay list, which the House had shown an anxiety to reduce. Could it be right that the country should have the same half-pay list in the tenth year of peace that we had in 1816. With regard to the comparative abuse of patronage in the two services, he would say, that the abuse in the navy was to that in the army in the ratio of ten to one. He could prove that mere boys at school had been placed in command of ships, when the officers whom they commanded were lieutenants. That was a species of abuse which cried aloud for correction. The hon. member then moved for "a return of all Officer who have purchased the
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said Commissions; specifying their names, and when they obtained their first Commissions in the Army as Ensign or Cornet; whether they purchased any and how many of their Commissions, and bow long they served in each rank; and whether they ever were on Foreign service, and how long—as far as the same can be complied with, since the Returns to this House, dated the 31st of March, 1826." The motion was agreed to.

JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES—CASE OF MR. BROGDEN.
Mr. Brogdenrose, and addressed the House with a degree of agitation which rendered him almost inaudible. He begged to call the respectful attention of the House to a few observations. The House was aware that an hon. alderman, whom he now saw in his place, had threatened to bring his conduct, in respect to a certain company, of which he had been a director, under its consideration. He was placed in a peculiarly unfortunate situation, in not knowing, first of all, what charges were to be preferred against him, and next, at what time they were to be brought forward. He had applied on the subject to the hon. alderman, who had told him, that he did not yet know what course he should feel it expedient to pursue. He therefore thought it right to inform the House once again, that he was most anxious that an inquiry should be instituted into his conduct, not only with regard to the Arigna Mining Company, but with regard to every other company with which he had been connected.
Mr. Alderman WaithmanSaid, that he had now made up his mind as to the course which he should pursue. That course was, to submit a motion to the House on the subject of Joint-stock companies generally, and without reference to the conduct of any individual in particular. In case it should be carried, he had made up his mind to inquire into the origin and progress of the Arigna Company; into the conduct of the directors of that company; and, indeed, into the conduct of the directors of all other companies. He now gave distinct notice, that, immediately after the recess, he would bring these Joint-stock companies under the notice of the House. It was not from any wish to consult his own convenience that he postponed his motion till after the holidays; but he had had com-

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munications respecting it with several gentlemen, accustomed to take a leading part in the debates of the House, and they had told him, that from the number of members who were preparing to leave town, and from other circumstances, it would not be practicable for him to bring on such a motion before the holidays, with any chance of success. He would avail himself of the first Opportunity after the recess to bring it forward; and he hoped to be able to shape it in such a manner as would give the hon. member that opportunity for exculpation of which he appeared to be so desirous.
The Speakerasked the hon. alderman, whether he wished to have his intended motion entered in the book of notices.
Mr. Maberlysaid, that if he understood rightly what the worthy alderman had said, when he first brought this subject under the notice of parliament, he declared his intention of bringing a specific charge of misconduct against the hon. member who had formerly filled the situation of chairman of their committees. Now, however, that the hon. member had declined to sit in that chair, so long as any charges were hanging over his head unrefuted, the worthy alderman shifted his ground, and said, that instead of bringing a specific motion against any individual member, he would bring forward a general motion against a large number of members who had also misconducted themselves. If there were any foundation for charges so materially affecting the honour of the House, he would ask the worthy alderman, why he did not bring them forward immediately? Were such calumnies against the House collectively, and its members individually, to go abroad for months uncontradicted and uhrefuted? Justice demanded that the worthy alderman should forthwith produce his charges against the directors of what he was pleased to call these fraudulent companies. The House ought not to forget, that many of those companies, fraudulent and ruinous as they were now termed, had been sanctioned by its approbation; that where a charter had not been obtained for them, it had given them leave to sue and be sued by their secretaries; and that it had also distinctly declared, that after having given them such power, it would not be responsible for the use to which the managers of the company might put it. He conceived that the insinuations which the
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worthy alderman had thrown out against every member who had taken any part, however small, in these companies, ought to be followed up immediately by some motion. At any rate, the worthy alderman was bound to see that justice was done, and that speedily, to the hon. member, whose re-election to the chair he had opposed so warmly. If the worthy alderman did not institute without delay an inquiry into the conduct of that hon. gentleman, he should conceive the hon. gentleman to be very unfairly treated. He had himself never had any thing to do with these Joint-stock companies, and he therefore was hot afraid of any attack being made upon him for stating the opinion which he now had stated. But even if he had been engaged in some of these speculations, why was he bound to hold his tongue? Were members of parliament to be debarred from dealing in such matters? Were they to be prevented from applying their capital as they thought proper? If they were not, parliament ought to decide that it could have nothing to do with so general an investigation as the worthy alderman appeared to desire. He was aware that there was no motion before the House at present; but he thought the House was bound to answer this question—" shall we leave this gentleman, our late chairman, under the charges of the worthy alderman, till after the recess?" Something ought to be done to rescue him from the obloquy to which he had been exposed; and for his own part, he thought the worthy alderman, if he had any regard for the interests of justice, was bound to proceed immediately with his charges.
Mr. Brogdensaid, it was undoubtedly out of order for him to address the House again; but he trusted to its indulgence, whilst he said a few words upon a point which so materially affected his character. He was surprised that the worthy alderman had so misunderstood the communication which had passed between them. The worthy alderman had told him, that on Monday last he would inform him of the course which he intended to pursue. He then stated, that he did not intend to bring forward his threatened motion, which would be of a general nature, until after the recess. "I told him," continued Mr. Brogden, "that such a proceeding was cruel to myself and unjust to the House; that his first motion was personal

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to myself, as it intimated an intention to oppose my re-election to the chair, on the ground of my having misconducted myself as a director of the Arigna company; and that he therefore ought to pursue his original intention, in order to give me an opportunity of vindicating my character from the calumnies by which it has been assailed." I repeat in public the declaration which I made to the worthy alderman in private. I am not Quixote enough to suppose that I can defend all the proceedings of all the Joint-stock companies which have recently been formed. I am fortunately not called upon to do any such thing. I am only called upon to defend myself; and I have no doubt of doing that successfully. I will not recede from the investigation which I have challenged. I dare the worthy alderman to the inquiry. I will meet any charges which he may think right to prefer against me, and that at the earliest period he may think proper to select. I know that it will be difficult for me to encounter the storm which is abroad; but I am confident that my character will carry me through it uninjured, and that I shall be restored, at the termination of it, to the good opinion of the House, which I feel conscious that I neither have lost, nor have deserved to lose. I implore the worthy alderman to give me the investigation which I seek; and if he will not do it of his own accord, I call upon the House to press him to proceed with the inquiry which he has menaced.
Mr. Alderman Waithmansaid, that he was now placed in a similar situation to that in which he had been placed the first time he had the honour of a seat in parliament. He had then brought forward a complaint against the constitution and management of the Court for the relief of Insolvent Debtors; and, in consequence of his exertions, that Court, as then constituted, was knocked up. He recollected, however, that after he had brought forward that complaint, the prosecution of it was taken out of his hands, and committed to the care of a select committee. He wished that some gentleman would now propose to do that which had been done to him on the former occasion, and would institute, by means of a committee, the inquiry which he had pointed out. He thought he had been very unfairly used on this question. He took it up, not on private, but on general grounds. [Cries
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of "No."] He begged pardon of the hon. gentlemen, but he must repeat the assertion to which they had given a denial. He had said, on the occasion to which he alluded, that if it had been possible for the Speaker to have had the same connexion with Joint-stock companies as the hon. gentleman was known to have had, he should have felt it quite as much his duty to resist the re-election of the Speaker, as to resist the re-election of the hon. member. He wanted no pressing to proceed with his charge. He was ready to go on with it, either at that moment or at any other time which might be more convenient to the House. It was owing to a communication which he had had with the hon. member himself, that he had determined to bring on the whole of this great question immediately after the recess. He had stated to the hon. member the nature of the motion which he intended to make, and had promised to let him see it, after he had drawn it up; and the hon. member had then himself admitted, that nothing could be done in the business till after the recess. The worthy alderman then proceeded to advise the House to consider what its predecessors had done in the year 1720, and to contrast it with what they were then doing. It would then see, that it had an act of justice to perform towards the country. He knew that he stood in a particular situation in bringing forward this motion; he might, perhaps, stand alone in doing it; but whether he stood alone, or was surrounded by others, he was determined at all events to do his duty.

FOREIGN GOODS IMPORTED INTO THE UNITED KINGDOM IN 1824 AND 1826.
Sir Henry Parnellrose for the purpose of moving for returns of the quantities of Foreign Goods imported into the United Kingdom in the years 1824 and 1826. The object of his motion was, to ascertain what had been the effect of the act that was passed in 1825, for altering the law in respect to the importation of foreign productions. It was commonly supposed that this act had established a free trade; but nothing could be more erroneous than such a supposition. The speech with which the President of the Board of Trade introduced that act had led to this opinion; but the act corresponded very little with the principles laid down in that speech; for the new duties were all kept so high,

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that very little had been imported under them. The act did little more than change a system of positive prohibition into a system of prohibitory duties. There was now a duty of 30 per cent ad valorem on all foreign manufactures of silk, brass, copper, leather, painted china, sail cloth, turnery, carriages, and many other things: 20 per cent on hardware; on crown glass 8l. 6s. 8d. per cwt.: on sheet glass, 10 l.: from 6s. to 11 s. per square foot on plate glass: 9d. per lb. on paper: 11 d. per lb. on books: 1l. 7s. 6d. per cwt. on copper: 2l. 15 s. per load on timber: 4l. 10 s. per cwt. on soap: 2s. 6d. per lb. on wax candles: 3l. per cwt. on gunpowder: 8l. 11 s. per cwt. on hops: and about 50 l. per cent on hats: and a great number of duties on other articles equally high. As the charges for freight, commission, insurance, &c, amounted to about twelve per cent, none of the above goods could be imported in competition with British goods; and the consequence was, that the system was, in point of fact, as exclusive of foreign competition as ever. The country was, therefore, still suffering all the evils which were so ably pointed out by the President of the Board of Trade, as the necessary results of prohibiting foreign competition by high protecting duties. The best incentive to excellence, and the best stimulus to invention and improvement, were destroyed by them, and mediocrity encouraged. By them the community was condemned to suffer both in price and quality, and all the evils of monopoly. They were a premium to the smuggler, and they excited the suspicion and odium of foreign countries. This was the character which the President of the Board of Trade had given of these duties, and the House had still to decide, whether it would leave them as they now existed, or adopt the principles and views of the right hon. gentleman, and introduce a new measure for really establishing a fair competition between British and foreign goods.—The hon. baronet proceeded to observe, that the more the nature of these protecting duties was examined, the more evident it was that, in place of being of any service to the manufacturing interest, they actually injured it. For, as agricultural produce was too high to be exported in order to pay for foreign goods, the more that were imported, the more British manufactures must be exported to pay for them; and, therefore, what was most for
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the benefit of the British manufacturers was, the greatest possible importation of foreign productions of all kinds. The right course to adopt was, to abolish every duty that partook of the character of what was called a protecting duty; and to impose duties on foreign goods solely for the purpose of obtaining revenue, and in no degree by way of giving protection to any branch of national industry. If this were done, there existed no sound reason for supposing that a single branch of manufacture would be incapable of carrying on a successful competition with a similar foreign manufacture; while it was, at the same time, certain, that if any branch should be injured, some other would be benefited in consequence of the larger exportation that would become necessary to provide the means of paying for the imported foreign manufacture. The high duties which were continued by the act of 1825 on timber, wine, and all articles of luxury, taste, and food, were productive of great injury, either by adding to their price, or by preventing their use, and thus limiting the demand for British production for exportation. It was capable of demonstration, that a larger revenue would be obtained by a lower rate of duty on timber; and it was clear that, so long as we imposed a higher duty on French wines than on the wines of any other country, we could have no chance of the French government acting upon liberal principles, in respect to admitting British goods into France. If the duties on articles of luxury, taste, and food, were lowered to about five per cent, a great revenue might be obtained for them; as was proved by some articles, that were not very heavily taxed, such as butter and cheese, at present yielding some hundred thousands a year of revenue. By the returns which were now required, it would be seen what the importations of foreign goods were in 1824, the year before the passing of the new law, and in the year 1826, the year after the passing of it. And when these were laid before the House, he should feel it his duty to move to have them referred to a select committee. He then moved, "That there be prepared and laid before the House, as soon as the same can be made up, an account showing the quantities of the following articles imported, and entered for home consumption, into the United Kingdom, from foreign countries, and the colonies, in the

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years 1824 and 1826; and also showing the rate of duty payable on each article, in each of these years."
Mr. Warburton, in rising to second the motion, said, he was convinced, that the more a person was acquainted with the details of the importation of foreign articles into this country, the more he would be convinced that the system of free trade had been very imperfectly carried into effect. In the article of foreign timber, with which he was better acquainted than with some of the imported articles, he knew that the duty imposed was not only very heavy, but was very inconveniently levied. The price of good timber in the Baltic was about 18 s. or 20 s. per load, and the amount of duty payable on it when imported, was nearly three times that sum. But that was not the only evil. There was another, which, in some respects, might be considered still greater. He alluded to the mode in which that duty was levied. The landed gentlemen of this country would think it very hard if they could not dispose of their timber except when it was cut into planks of certain dimensions; and yet, such was the difficulty imposed on those who sold their timber from the countries bordering on the Baltic for importation into this country. According to the system now in practice, with respect to the importation duty levied on timber coming from the Baltic, planks of six feet long and half an inch thick, paid exactly the same duty as planks sixteen feet long and three inches thick. The result of this was, that the price was raised to the consumer, upon whom this unequal taxation always fell the most heavily. If the importer could not dispose of the deals cut in the smaller dimensions at an advanced price, which, of course, he could not hope to do, he must put a higher price on those for which he was more likely to find purchasers; and the result of this would be, to raise the price of deals to the consumer. He knew, that, within the last year, a new tariff of duties had been in contemplation; but it had not been carried into effect, and the evils continued the same as before. He did not mean to say that government could not, by possibility, be justified in imposing high duties on such an article, and imposing them in the manner he had stated; but he did not mean to say, that unless ministers had a strong ground to justify this mode of imposing the duty,
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they ought to alter it, as it was highly injurious in its effects. He believed that the gentlemen connected with the Canada and Russian trade had endeavoured to obtain a new tariff; but their attempt had fallen to the ground. A stagnation of the trade had followed the continuance of the old system, and the only measure which might have increased the trade, and afforded some compensation for past inconveniencies, had not been introduced. Having thus expressed his opinion upon the amount of duty levied on timber, and on the mode in which that duty was levied, he should proceed to notice one or two other articles which were imported into this country, and in respect of the duty on which he thought there ought to be some alteration. There was one article in which we carried on an extensive trade with France; but that trade we had so regulated, as to impose a heavy tax upon ourselves, in the shape of an importing duty. The article to which he referred was Gum Senegal. It was of the utmost importance to calico dyers to have this article; and it was well known that it could only be obtained from the river Senegal, and in small quantities. At one time that article was, by an order in council, allowed to be imported into this country from the ports of France; but, under the present system of importation regulations, that practice was discontinued, and the gum must first be exported to New York, and from thence brought back to this country. This expense of shipment and re-shipment, together with the other charges incident thereto, only served to render the commodity dearer to the consumer. The French followed our bad example in this respect. They said they would act in the same manner towards our article of indigo, as we acted towards their gum Senegal; and they in consequence prohibited the indigo of the East Indies from being imported directly into the ports of France. The indigo was, therefore, taken to Ostend, from whence it was re-shipped, perhaps at a charge of from two to three per cent, and then it was carried into France. The ridiculous part of this system was, that neither country injured its neighbour by these prohibitions, but each injured itself. France, by prohibiting the direct importation of indigo, laid a tax of two or three per cent on that article, which was absolutely necessary in their manufactures; and we could not

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laugh at them for their folly, since, by pursuing the very same system, we imposed a similar tax upon ourselves, in the equally important and necessary article of gum Senegal. Neither nation could assume the honour of being wiser than the other upon these matters. The next article to which he should call the attention of the House, was the silk we imported from Persia. A large quantity of that silk did in fact, come to us by the way of Russia By the law, as it now stood, Persian silk could not be admitted directly into this country, as it was a product of Asia. Now the most prudent course would be, to admit all articles of commerce by that channel in which they could be received in the cheapest way. It was true, that Persian silk might come to this country by sea from the East Indies; but then it would come at greater cost, as most of of the provinces of Persia from whence that silk was brought lay on the shores of the Caspian sea. The cheapest method, therefore, of importing it, would be to get it through the ports of Russia. That method, however, was prohibited by the law as it stood. If it really was the object of the right hon. gentleman to introduce the principles of free trade, why should not Persian silk be allowed to come here from Russia? He applauded those principles of free trade which the right hon. gentleman had advocated, but which seemed hardly to have been sufficiently put into practice. He did not believe that the fault lay with the right hon. gentleman, who, he trusted, would have the firmness to persevere in carrying his principles into effect, and would not suffer his measures to be frittered away by the interested representations of individuals immediately connected with the trade which it was supposed they might affect.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, that as he did not feel the least wish to object to the account for which the hon. baronet had called, and as he did not think this a fit occasion to enter into the subject of the importation duties, he should make but a few observations on the question. He was of opinion, that the great principles which regulated, or which ought to regulate, the commercial policy of this and of other countries, required a more solemn consideration than could be given to them at the present moment; and believing this, he hoped he should stand excused to the House for saying, that it seemed to him the fitter
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time to enter into the discussion would be after the information sought for by these returns had been obtained. Perhaps he might be allowed to observe, that a great difference of opinion seemed to exist among the impugners of the measures which he had had the honour of advocating. Perhaps he might be permitted to say, that those who out of doors clamoured loudly against these measures, as being injurious to the trade of this country, had founded their clamour upon the speeches of gentlemen opposite, some of whom now complained of those very measures as not being sufficiently strong. On the one hand, there was the complaint, that too much had been done for free trade; while, on the other, there was an equally loud complaint, that nothing had been done. He should not now stay to discriminate between such conflicting extremes of opinion. However, he could not but wonder, that while gentlemen within the House asserted that the principles of free trade had not been carried far enough, there should be others out of the House persevering in their attempts to direct the opposition of the mis-informed towards those measures, which, he could boldly declare, had in no degree contributed to the distresses lately experienced in this country. Before he sat down, he would give the hon. baronet the explanation he required upon the subject of the treaty with Portugal. It was true, that the period when either this country or Portugal might renounce the terms of that treaty arrived in June last, and Portugal had expressed a wish that some alterations should be made in it before it was renewed. Those alterations were still the subject of discussion between the two governments, and, until they should be arranged, the treaty would continue in force, as it was in terms a perpetual treaty, subject only to alteration and revision at certain stated periods. That was the state at which things stood at present; and ministers were, therefore, not at liberty at present to deal with the question of the duty on French and Portuguese wines, as the treaty was still pending. There were other ranches of the subject to which the hon. member for Bridport had alluded, but which it was not now the proper time to discuss. He, however, would remind that hon. gentleman, that there was not one measure to which he had adverted that was not expressly pointed out to ministers by the Navigation laws. Whether

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those laws ought to be altered or not, was another question; but, while they continued in their present state, and remained as the guides of our foreign commerce, they must be obeyed, and ministers had not the power to change the course which they directed to be pursued.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonthought, that the country was highly indebted to the right hon. gentleman for the liberal course which he had hitherto pursued. He wished to know what was the object of the present motion; for, if it was to obtain a select committee, to whom was to be referred the question of the importation duties; he should certainly oppose the appointment of any such committee, until after the question of the Corn-laws had been finally settled. Until that question was decided, he was convinced the trade of this country could only be partially affected by other measures.
Colonel Torrensprotested against the principle, that British manufacturers wanted any protection. All they required was, that their energies should not be oppressed and destroyed by enormous and unnecessary duties. We could not export our agricultural produce in return for importations of foreign manufactures, since that produce was nearly 50 per cent, dearer than any other in the world. We must, therefore, either export our manufactures, or pay money for goods imported. If there was a free trade to-morrow, our manufacturers might meet all the world; and their knowledge and skill, their capital and their machinery, would give them a decided advantage. But, then, the Corn-laws destroyed these means of superiority; and, until the question of those laws was settled, the prosperity of England stood but on a foundation of sand. He should not detain the House further, as he had merely risen to enter his protest against the supposition, that, of themselves, the British manufacturers required any protection against foreign competition.
The motion was then agreed to.