Commons Sitting of 13 May 1825

EAST INDIA JUDGES BILL.
The House having resolved itself into a committee on this bill,
Mr. Humeadverted to a provision contained in the bill, by which the Recorder of Prince of Wales's Island was liable to be removed from his situation, at the pleasure of his majesty. He wished to know, why the person appointed to the Recordership should be placed in a situation different from any other judge? Other judges held their appointment for life, unless they behaved improperly in office; and so ought the Recorder of Prince of Wales's Island.
Mr. Wynnsaid, the provision in question was not a new one, but was strictly in conformity with the act or charter under which a recorder had been originally appointed. He wished now to state the reason why an alteration was made in the payment of the judges. The salaries of the Madras judges had formerly been paid in pagodas, at 8s. the pagoda. That mode of payment had for some time been discontinued, and the salaries were paid in rupees. But, it was found that the quantity of silver to be obtained for the rupee was not equal, in proportion, to that which could be obtained for the pagoda, by which the judges sustained a loss. A memorial stating that fact, was laid before the Indian government, who, having submitted it to the proper authorities, determined on their report, to make the alteration. It was also thought better to pay the salaries in the local currency, rather than in British currency.
Mr. Humesaid, he objected to the appointment of a judge who was removable at pleasure. If the right hon. gentleman could show him any charter in which such a provision was to be found, he would be satisfied—not of the propriety of the thing, but that it was not a novelty. Such a system was most dangerous, since it tended to shake the independence of judges, who might act according to the dictates of those in power, for fear of losing their situations. The House, perhaps, was not aware, that Indian governors had sometimes punished even jurors, because they had done their duty. In one case, because a jury had acted contrary to the feelings of sir G. Barlow, that individual had displaced every man who sat on it. If a judge were also liable

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to the visitation of power, he would be placed in a situation where he might find it beneficial to his interest not to perform his duty. Therefore he wished that part of the clause by which the judge held his office during pleasure to be omitted. It would not be forgotten, that at a former period sir H. Gwillim had been removed from Madras, in consequence of a dispute between him and the government. That individual was not allowed to state his opinion as to the law of the land. But, from that day to this, the custom of removing at pleasure, was not, he understood, permitted.
Mr. Wynnsaid, that the words of the act or charter of 1807 were followed in this bill. That charter, which appointed a recorder for Prince of Wales's Island, provided that the individual should hold the situation during his majesty's pleasure.
Mr. Humesaid, he would be satisfied if the right hon. gentleman would state that this bill made no alteration in the general law, and that the Indian judges were to be placed in the same situation as those of England ["no, no."]. Then, he contended, it was a question which called for the most serious consideration. The system of intimidation was carried to such an extent, that no man who differed from the government could hope to escape proscription; and the degree of despotism to which the executive power in India had arrived, was unexampled, even by that of the Stuarts. Many persons had been banished; and, within the last month, two indigo planters had arrived in England, having been deported from India without notice or trial. It became the duty of the House to consider whether such a system ought, or could safely, be allowed to endure. The half-castes were not allowed to sit on juries, and yet they were allowed to hold land; while Englishmen, who possessed the former privilege, were wholly precluded from the latter. It was quite necessary that some system should be established for securing the independence of the judges in India, and interposing the protection of a jury between British subjects and the public authorities.
Mr. Robertsonsaid, that any alteration in the law, as far as regarded the judges, appeared to him unnecessary.
Mr. Wynnsaid, that the judges were in fact independent of the local authorities, and could only be removed by the Crown.
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He admitted the possibility of disputes arising between the judges and the governors; but even in such cases the difficulty, almost the possibility, of bringing over the witnesses necessary for investigating them, rendered the exercise of a discretionary power necessary. He would be quite ready to give his attention to any measure which should propose a practical remedy to the existing defects.
Sir C. Forbessaid, it was impossible that the people of India, having the knowledge they had of the blessings and spirit of the British constitution, could long endure the tyranny of their governors. He thought the natives of India were not less entitled to protection than any other British subjects.
Mr. Sykessaid, it was quite clear, notwithstanding what had been asserted, that the judges in India were not as independent as those in England, and that nothing could be more objectionable than that any confusion should exist between the executive and judicial authorities.
Dr. Phillimoresaid, that the judges were removable at the pleasure of the Crown, but not at the pleasure of the local government. He thought there was great wisdom in retaining this power for the Crown; because the distance between this country and India, rendered it impossible that a prompt inquiry should be had into cases which might arise, and which might require an immediate remedy. If any alteration were necessary, it must be provided for by another bill. The one now under discussion contemplated nothing but a change in the judges' salary.
Mr. Humehad no objection to the judges' salaries being raised, but, he complained that the most important interests of India were neglected, while such paltry considerations as these occupied the attention of the House. The governors acted as umpires over the judges, who were therefore not independent. The half-castes, though much more numerous than Englishmen, were degraded and deprived of the right to set upon juries. The hon. gentleman read an extract of a letter from India, setting forth the evils of the present system; and concluded by asserting, that it was necessary to restrain, without delay, the power which the governor at present possessed, of transporting any individuals who might become obnoxious to him.
Mr. Wynnasserted, that the judges of India were as honourable and independ-

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ent as any in this country. The greatest care had been taken in their selection; and in their subsequent conduct they had never shown themselves subservient to the power of the governor. The power of deportation was granted by the last charter. When it should again come to be considered by the House, it might be restrained in such a manner as the circumstances might authorize.
Mr. Humehad no doubt of the ability of the judges in India, but they ought to be as independent as they were able. He suggested the appointment of a temporary judge in cases of vacancy, in the same manner as was provided in case of vacancy among the members of council.
Mr. Wynnsaw several objections to the proposed change. He had never heard of the case of the Indigo planters to which the hon. gentleman had alluded.
Mr. Humeobjected to the clause, empowering the authorities of India to transport offenders to Prince of Wales's Island, or any other place to which they might at present be sentenced, because the climate of that island was such as to ensure the death of almost any European who should be condemned to hard labour there.
Sir C. Forbesproposed, that the salaries of the judges should be raised from 58,000 to 60,000 rupees, and moved an amendment to that effect.
Sir C. Coleseconded the amendment.
Mr. Wynnsaid, that the great loss of life rendered it necessary to offer every temptation to persons properly qualified to fill these offices. The proposed alteration amounted to not more than 200 l. per annum, and he therefore thought it was not worth while to contest it.
The amendment was carried. After which, the Chairman reported progress.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS—REV. DR. DOYLE.
Sir J. Newportsaid, that his hon. and learned friend, the member for Winchelsea, had received a letter from Dr. Doyle, which, in justice to that rev. gentleman, whose feelings had been wounded by something which had passed in the House, he would take the liberty of reading. The right hon. baronet then read the letter, in which the writer complained, that it had been attributed to him that the opinions expressed in the writings published under the signature of J. K. L., and those delivered in his evidence before the parliamentary committee, were inconsistent with each other. He denied that
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the opinions contained in his writing could—unless they were distorted from their true and original meaning—be proved to be inconsistent with his evidence. He also declared that, in all the writings which he had published during the course of six years, he had ever expressed a most respectful opinion of the constitution, creed, and liturgy of the established church, although most of those writings were answers to unmerited attacks on his own religion and church.

WAREHOUSED CORN BILL.
Mr. Huskissonmoved the third reading of this bill.
Sir M. W. Ridleyexpressed an opinion, that the duty of 10 s., on payment of which the warehoused corn was to be admitted, was too high, and that it would act as a prohibition.
Mr. Wodehouseapprehended that much corn of the United States would be fraudulently imported, under the denomination of Canadian corn.
Mr. Huskissonobserved, that he had no objection to fix the duty at less than 10 s., if the House should concur with any proposition to that effect. At the same time he did not believe that a duty to the amount of 10 s. would prevent the corn from being brought into the market. He was satisfied that the owners of warehoused corn would not fail to bring it into the market before the next harvest, if they had an opportunity of doing so; because, if the corn in foreign ports should be imported, it would bring the price much lower than that which they could obtain for it now. With respect to what the hon. member for Norfolk had said about the importation of American corn, he believed his apprehensions to be without foundation. He had conversed with persons who were perfectly informed on the subject, and he found that, during the time when corn was at the highest price ever known in this country, there never was more than fifty thousand quarters of Canadian corn imported. The lowest price at which corn of the United States could be landed at Montreal, including the expence of carriage, the risk, and the duty, was from 20 s. to 25 s. In order, however, to allay the fears of those who dreaded the importation of American corn, he had no objection to say, that if, during five years, the average importation of what was called Canadian corn should exceed 100,000 quarters, he would take

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that fact as evidence that there had been a fraudulent importation of American corn, and that it was necessary to adopt some measures to guard against it [hear].
Mr. H. Sumnerwished a clause to be introduced into the bill, to limit the importation of Canadian corn in any one to a hundred thousand quarters.
Sir E. Harveyapproved of the suggestion of the hon. member for Surrey.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer begged to remind those gentlemen who supposed that large quantities of American corn would be fraudulently introduced into the home market, that the measure before the House was intended for the benefit of the Canadians themselves, who would therefore have an interest in preventing such a proceeding. There were so many difficulties opposed to the fraudulent introduction of American corn, that he believed the thing was almost impracticable. In the first place, the corn must be brought from some port in Lake Champlain in an American ship, and be landed at Kingston, Montreal, or Quebec: it must then be put on board a British ship; for only in such a vessel could it be brought to this country from Canada: and, before all this could be done, it was necessary that perjury should be committed over and over again, and the vigilance of the Customhouse be defeated; which would be somewhat difficult, seeing that a cargo of corn was a bulky article, and not easily transported, particularly in a country like Canada, where the roads were not very favourable, and the points of communication hundreds of miles from each other. If gentlemen would study the geographical situation of the two countries, they would find that there was no ground for alarm.
Sir I. Coffinsaid, there was no ground to suppose that American corn could be fraudulently introduced into this country.
Sir J. Wrottesleydid not think the importation of American corn was so difficult as the right hon. gentleman had represented it to be.
Mr. W. Hortonsaid, that the inhabitants of Canada were as much interested in preventing the importation of American corn as the English farmers.
Mr. Sykesexpressed himself favourable to the lower rate. He would rather it should be 5s. or 7s. than 10 s.
Sir E. Knatchbullcould not concur in either a high or low rate. He did not think any alteration in the Corn laws necessary.
Mr. Curwensaid, he did not think bonded corn would be brought into the market, except at the lower rate.
Mr. Whitmoresaid, he should be extremely glad, if the right hon. gentleman would concede the lower rate of duty. He agreed with the hon. member for Cumberland, that the bonded corn was not likely to come into the market at so high a duty as 10 s. As to the amount of corn likely to be imported from the Canadas to this country, he believed the opinions which prevailed at the present moment to be most erroneous; since the average amount of wheat imported from the Canadas to this country did not exceed 23,000 quarters.
The bill was read a third time.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, that, with a view of removing all cause for alarm, and giving an adequate security against the fraudulent introduction of Canadian wheat, he should propose a clause, by way of rider, that there should be the same certificate of origin as in the case of sugar. This provision, which was found a sufficient security with respect to sugars, must be still more satisfactory in regard to so bulky an article as corn. With respect to the suggestion of the hon. member for Surrey, for limiting the quantity to 100,000 quarters, he should have no objection to adopt it, if he thought there was any probability that such a limitation would be necessary. If the increased importation should be so rapid as to give an average of so large an amount for five years, he should then consider that there was some evasion of the law, and the interposition of parliament would, under such circumstances, become necessary.
The clause was agreed to.
Sir M. W. Ridleymoved, as an amendment, that the duty on bonded corn be reduced from ten shillings to seven shillings.
Mr. Wodehousesupported the amendment. On behalf of the agriculturists, he was enabled to say, that they had no objection to the foreign corn being taken out of bond free of duty altogether.
Mr. Brightsupported the amendment, as the low duty was due to the holders of bonded corn, in compensation for the losses they had already sustained.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, he would most willingly concur in any thing which would relieve the importers of the bonded corn, who, he believed, had already lost con-

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siderably by it; but he felt it his duty to resist this amendment on public grounds. The object of it was, to give a greater facility to the owners of this corn to bring it into the market; but this he had no doubt would be done under the present bill. If the price should get near, but not up to 80 s., the holders of the bonded corn would bring it out, and would, no doubt, get a sale for it, not having the competition of any foreign corn; and if they saw that there was a chance of the price rising to 80 s., and of the ports being opened, they would feel equally anxious to bring it before the great influx of foreign corn would deprive them of all hope of selling it. His adherence to the 10 s. rather than a lower sum, was not from any consideration of revenue, but from motives of public expediency, which he had already explained to the House.
The amendment was negatived, and the bill passed.

GRANT TO MR. M'ADAM.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer rose to propose a grant by way of compensation to Mr. M'Adam, for that improvement in making the roads of the country, from which so much public benefit had been derived. As this subject was not new to honourable members, he would not occupy their time with any eulogium on the nature of Mr. M'Adam's services. The nature of his works was well known. Every gentleman who travelled in the country, whether for business or for pleasure, must at once perceive the advantage which had been derived from the application of Mr. M'Adam's talents in the formation of roads. In consequence of the time, labour, and expense which he had bestowed on this subject, the government, in 1820, felt itself bound to grant him a sum of money, and 2,000 l. were given to him in 1820. In 1822, on the very strong recommendation of the Post-office, by which department he had been employed to make surveys, and superintend the formation of several lines of road, a further sum of 2,000 l. was granted by the government. In 1823, application was made by Mr. M'Adam, who stated, that he had not been sufficiently remunerated for the discovery he had made in the art of road-making, and that the occasional employment he might derive in the application of his discovery would not be an
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adequate reward for the time, labour, and expense he had bestowed, in bringing it to perfection for the benefit of the public; he therefore besought the attention of the government to his claim, and prayed for an additional sum to compensate his services. He candidly confessed, that when this application was made, he was not disposed to receive it in that way which the friends of Mr. M'Adam could wish. He was not disposed, on a general principle, to give the sanction of government to applications of this kind. He was therefore inclined to be rather stingy of the public money on the occasion, and he refused the application; but he did consent to give the sanction of the government to a petition from Mr. M'Adam to the House. That petition was presented in 1823, and a committee was appointed to examine its claims. In 1823, that committee was appointed. They investigated the whole subject; and certainly no words could more strongly express, than those used in the report, their sense of the benefit which the public had derived from the scientific improvements that Mr. M'Adam had introduced into the construction of roads, not alone by his own exertions, but in consequence of his example. On the grounds so strongly stated in their report, the committee recommended, and certainly, in his opinion, not unreasonably, a further grant to Mr. M'Adam. That committee was a very large one, and was composed of honourable members, of different principles and sentiments; but all well qualified to give a sound opinion upon such a subject. After they had made their report, he had had several communications with the hon. gentlemen who had taken the most active part in the investigation; and it was in consequence of those communications, as well as of the report itself, that he consented to propose to parliament a further grant to Mr. M'Adam. The recommendation of the committee was, that 2,000 l. or 2,500 l. be granted to Mr. M'Adam. It was the former sum that he now intended to propose. It might be said, that when any man made an ingenious discovery, he would be rewarded by the employment that must necessarily follow. But that was not always the case. It frequently happened, that the individual to whom society was indebted for some important invention, was the last person to derive benefit from it. In the present instance, although, as

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he had already observed, he was not forward in picking out cases for the interference of the legislature, he really thought Mr. M'Adam was entitled to further remuneration; because, although certainly not in a state of poverty or destitution, the advantage which he had derived from his exertions was by no means adequate to their importance. On these grounds, he would take the liberty to move that a sum not exceeding 2,000 l. be granted, to enable his majesty to make further remuneration to Mr. M'Adam for the services which he had rendered to the public by the valuable improvements that he had made in the roads of the country.
Mr. Hume,although he by no means denied the public services of Mr. M'Adam, was of opinion that the proposed grant was not warranted by the circumstances of the case. He perfectly agreed with the chancellor of the Exchequer, that no claim of this nature ought to be allowed unless on the most satisfactory grounds; and he would appeal to the right hon. gentleman and to the House, whether what had been done by Mr. M' Adam justified a departure from that general rule. He by no means thought that the evidence taken before the committee appointed to investigate Mr. M'Adam's claims, warranted the report of that committee. Mr. M'Adam had made a statement of expenses which he had incurred for a long period of years, during which, he was prosecuting his experiments; but he understood that for a large portion of that time, Mr. M' Adam was employed in other affairs, and by no means devoted his sole attention to the subject of roads. Among other items, Mr. M' Adam stated that he had expended 5,019 l. in 1,920days. The particulars of this expenditure ought to have been detailed, in order to enable the House to form a judgment upon the subject. While he fully admitted the merits of Mr. M' Adam and was persuaded that the opinion of the committee was conscientiously given, he could not but be astonished at the absurdity of characterising that gentleman as the inventor of the system adopted under his name. It was true, that Mr. M' Adam had devoted a considerable portion of his life to carrying that system into successful execution, but that did not constitute him its inventor. Four years ago he (Mr. Hume) had presented a petition from a person of the name of Lester, in which it was satisfactorily proved, that the petitioner had
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framed a plan similar to Mr. M' Adam's, prior to the operations of that gentleman. He had also presented a petition from a Mr. Paterson, an eminent surveyor of the roads, in the county of Forfar, showing satisfactorily, that long before Mr. M' Adam was heard of, Mr. Paterson had constructed a number of roads, precisely on the same principle. Mr. M' Adam had been employed by 79 turnpike trusts in twenty-eight different counties, and from these counties he had a right to be repaid for his labour; but he objected against his being paid by the community at large. It appeared to him extraordinary that the public in Norfolk, in Scotland, and in Ireland, should be saddled with the cost of a grand new street from Carlton Palace to the Regent's Park. Such a practice would be in direct violation of all the principles on which the expenses of roads were provided for. It was said, in support of this grant, that Mr. M'Adam had received nothing from the trustees of squares, bridges, and parishes, to which he had repeatedly given his advice. If that were so, whose fault was it? Certainly not that of the public; and it was therefore particularly unfair to call upon it, to furnish, out of its generosity, those funds which ought to have been furnished by the justice of those to whom Mr. M'Adam had given his exertions. It was not so much to the amount of this grant as to the principle on which it was founded that he objected. He likewise objected to giving this remuneration to Mr. M'Adam, because the proposal of it came from the chancellor of the Exchequer, and not from the committee which had been appointed to examine into Mr. M'Adam's services. By coming from the chancellor of the Exchequer, it was made a government question, and was thus deprived of that fair and impartial consideration which it would have undergone had it come from any other quarter. Under these circumstances, he felt himself bound to oppose the grant, and should certainly take the sense of the committee upon it.
Mr. N. Calvertsupported the grant, on account of the great improvements which had been made on the line of roads submitted to the management of Mr. M'Adam.
Sir M. Cholmeleysaid, that if it were true that Mr. M'Adam had already received 4,000 l. of the public money, he did not appear to him to be entitled to any further remuneration.
Sir T. Baringspoke in support of the grant, and contended, that the House, in passing it, would not be establishing any new precedent, inasmuch as there had been upwards of twenty similar grants for similar public benefits in the last twenty years.
Mr. H. Sumneracknowledged the great merit of Mr. M'Adam's system, but could not look upon it as a new invention, as the roads in his neighbourhood had been made upon it for the last fifty years. He thought that the greatest national benefits might be compensated at a rate cheaper than the current expenses which the services of this family had cost to the country. He would admit that Mr. M'Adam, in bringing the system into general operation, was entitled to reward; and he had received it in the liberal remuneration which himself and family had had from the several public trusts. He must say, that the present demand was one of the most dangerous attacks on the public purse that he had ever remembered. Mr. M'Adam's sense of private advantage had led him and three of his sons to embark in an object, and the success that had attended their speculation had yielded to them all the most liberal remuneration. Out of different public trusts, for the last five years, they had drawn no less a sum than 41,000 l. Their claim for expenses, on the average of 400 l. per annum for each of the family, was made, not on the economical rate of a surveyor of the road, who would have been satisfied to ride his horse and dine on a beef steak and mutton chop. It would seem that the firm of M'Adam travelled in their post-chaise and four, and enjoyed all the delicacies of the season. Upon the whole, as he denied the originality of the invention to Mr. M'Adam, so he thought that the emoluments of the family were a sufficient compensation for any services the public had derived.
Mr. Maberlydenied that Mr. M'Adam had intruded himself on the Post-office. On the contrary, that department had sought him. Lord Chichester in an interview with that gentleman, had asked for the fullest information. Mr. M'Adam furnished him with the whole of his plan, keeping nothing back; and though no specific compact took place, the noble lord at the head or the Post-office had declared that he would be entitled to a public reward. The hon. member for Surrey denied the merit of invention; and
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said that he had been acquainted with the system for nearly fifty years. It was strange that he had not got that system into operation, for there were not worse roads in the kingdom than those in the county of Surrey. Nothing but the greatest perseverance on the part of Mr. M'Adam could have conquered the prejudices with which his improvement was opposed; and for that perseverance he was entitled to a public reward.
Mr. F. Palmerconsidered the services of Mr. M'Adam as much over-rated, and that the chancellor of the Exchequer had been too easily prevailed upon to accede to a proposal for remuneration.
Mr. Hart Davisdeclared his willingness to support the present vote. Many of the roads repaired by Mr. M'Adam had fallen under his own observation; and he could assure the House, that several which had been the worst roads in the West of England, had, by Mr. M'Adam's exertions, been converted into the best possible state.
Sir E. Knatchbullsaid, that if he could feel assured that the present sum was to be the liquidation of Mr. M'Adam's claims upon the public, he should feel little difficulty in supporting the grant: but Mr. M'Adam had already received the sum of 4,000 l.; the House was now called upon to vote a further sum of 2,000 l., and he believed that they would, ere long, be applied to for further remuneration to Mr. M'Adam.
Sir Robert Wilsonthought, that what had been said respecting Mr. M'Adam's not fulfilling his contract was irrelevant to the present question, as he was amenable upon that ground to an action at law. He was able to bear the most unequivocal testimony to the services which Mr. M'Adam had rendered to the public. He did not, however, estimate those services by any quantity of road that Mr. M'Adam had laid down, or even by any quantity that had been laid down by others upon his principles, but he appreciated his merits in introducing a system of improvement, and in originating a series of observations and experiments which had almost brought our roads to an equality with the old Roman roads. As to the objections made against Mr. M'Adam, upon the ground that he was not the inventor of the present system of road-making, he had as clear a right to the merit of invention, as could, from the nature of the case, he established. It was exceedingly difficult,

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generally speaking, to fix the origin of inventions, and to decide the pretensions of rival claimants for priority of invention or discovery, and the opposition to Mr. M'Adam's claims to originality seemed to be founded upon the old principle, that there was nothing new under the sun. He conceived that parsimony in the proposed grant, would not only be illiberal, and even unjust to the individual, but would eventually prove injurious to the interests of the public. individuals had come from all parts of the empire to receive instructions from Mr M'Adam and to witness the effects of his system. These persons had diffused the benefits of the improvements in every direction, and there were very few interests in the country that did not derive very sensible advantages from the ameliorated state of the roads, arising from Mr. M'Adam's ingenuity. He should, therefore feel it his duty, upon every principle of public utility and private justice, to give the present grant his most cordial support.
Sir T. Aclandbore testimony to the great services derived to all the active classes of society, by the improvements which Mr. M'Adam had introduced into the system of making roads, and keeping them in repair. These improvements were a source of economy to all who had to bear the expenses of making or repairing roads; and the increased facility of communication which they afforded, was obviously a source of profit to the manufacturing and commercial interests. Mr. M'Adam had received nothing from the trustees of roads; and was, therefore, the more entitled to remuneration from the public at large. That gentleman had not received 4,000 l. for advice, as had been stated. That sum had been granted to him in payment of labour performed, and expenses incurred.
Mr. Estcourtdeclared, that Mr. M'Adam's exertions had proved any thing rather than beneficial to the roads in the neighbourhood of Devizes. He had left the roads in a much worse state than that in which he had found them. He had also thought proper to asperse the conduct of the trustees of those roads in a manner highly unjust, and in every respect unwarranted by facts or circumstances.
The committee divided. For the grant 83: Against it 27; Majority 56.

COUNTY COURTS BILL.
The resolution of the 3rd. instant being reported,
Lord Althorpargued against any compensations being granted to officers of courts of justice, for the loss of fees arising out of the reforms made in the courts by the present bill. The compensations proposed were to be granted for the loss of professional profits, against all the known chances and vicissitudes of professional life. He objected to any compensation being made to any individual who could not prove an actual loss arising out of the present bill.
Mr. Brightthought the compensations proposed objectionable in principle, and pernicious in their example to the officers of all the other courts. He should hereafter think it is duty to take the sense of the House upon the measure.
Mr. Humewanted to know whether, if compensations were given to those who suffered in the present instance, gentlemen were prepared to support the principle of giving compensations to all who, in any case, should suffer a loss of fees under any bills of reforms and improvement? The claims in the present case were grounded upon the argument, that the claimants were injured in offices which they had acquired by purchase. For his part, he thought that the sale of offices in courts of justice was in itself a great evil, and that the first step ought to be, to prohibit any such sale, and thereby to prevent any claim for losses sustained by a reform of purchased offices. The whole system of fees was pernicious in the extreme. As to the compensations claimed in the present instance, upon the same principle might compensation be claimed for losses by any manufacturer who had established his manufactory upon the faith of laws and treaties, and had sustained injury by a breach of those treaties, or by an alteration of such laws. But for one or two individuals in that House, the compensations would never have been heard of. The noble lord, who originated this measure, would never have consented to the compensations, but for a knowledge that, without his acquiescence in the demand, his bill would not pass. What a state were they reduced to, if they were obliged to vote away the public money, merely to prevent the opposition to a useful measure by a party personally interested in the abuses which that measure was intended to obliterate! He saw no end to the claims that might be made upon the House, if the present were acceded to.
Mr. Grantthought, that claims to compensation in cases like the present rested upon their own individual merits more than upon any general principle. He should support the motion.
Mr. Wynnbegged the hon. member for Aberdeen to reflect that places, if not purchased by money, might often be said to be purchased by the sacrifice of other professional fees and lucrative practice. He conceived the principle of compensation which this measure embraced to be unobjectionable, and should give it his support.
The resolution was then agreed to.

QUARANTINE LAWS BILL.
The House having resolved itself into a committee on this bill,
Mr. John Smithobserved, that the question before the committee was one of the utmost moment. It could not be denied by candid and inquiring men, that the present system of our Quarantine laws was a mass of absurdity and folly. In a commercial point a view, the circumstance was the more to be regretted; because it was a system affecting our trade with the Mediterranean, a sea, whose shores were, of all others, the richest in productions. There were in that system obvious anomalies to which he felt it a duty to object. So ineffectual, moreover, was it to accomplish its ostensible objects, that it was notorious that cargoes were frequently brought from countries up the Levant to Holland, where a very different and milder system of Quarantine laws prevailed, in order to effect the introduction of such goods with the greater facility into England; and yet in Holland the plague had not made its appearance for a long period of time, notwithstanding the great amount of imports into that country; nor in France or England for upwards of a hundred years. However much he had been attacked by hon. members in that House, and subjected to newspaper attacks, as a man who had declared the plague to be not contagious, the fact was, that he had never ventured to give any opinion whatever on the doctrine of contagion; neither, placed in the circumstances he was, would it have become him to have given any such opinion. In the few observations he should now submit to the House, he did not mean at all to enter into the history of this question; but he might be allowed to notice, that in the year 1819, several medical or experiences
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gentlemen were examined upon it. They all agreed in affirming, that this disease was contagious; but, in no other point, did they concur. In 1824, other individuals were examined to similar points; but the only witnesses examined before that latter committee were such as were decidedly contagionists, and on that principle were all agreed. One should have thought that their evidence would have concurred on that topic, therefore. No such thing. Their evidence was so unfavourable to contagion generally, that one of them pronounced Great Britain to be perfectly free from it eight months out of the year. Another medical man, of great eminence, expressed a doubt whether the plague ever passed Cape Finisterre. Thus divided were the sentiments of scientific men upon this part of the question. Upon the evidence which had been adduced in the course of those two inquiries, it would not appear that those officers called "expurgators" in some of the European ports, who examined ships coming in with foul bills of health, had incurred any fatal consequences by reason of their employment. From certain information, indeed, which he had procured from Marseilles, it did appear, that in 1720, a man of this description fell down dead upon opening a bale of cotton that had arrived in a vessel from a country subject to the infection. It was immediately said, and in the infant state of science at that day, believed, that he had dropped down dead of the plague; but this was an absurdity; for in fact he died of apoplexy. Nor was it likely that cotton goods should retain any such degree of infection; for it was known that when the plague was raging most violently, even in Egypt or at Constantinople, the clothes, bed and bedding, of the dead, were the perquisites of the magistrates; and as such were publicly sold to whoever might choose to buy them. Between the countries to which he had been alluding and Persia, there was a constant, intercourse kept up; and yet, whether from the dryness of the atmosphere, or from whatever other cause it might be, a plague in Persia was hardly within any man's recollection. He felt much disposed, on principle, to support the bill which was brought forward by the right hon. gentleman, and all who heard him must be convinced of the vast importance of such a measure. Persons of the highest distinction in the medical profession had now determined, that the yellow fever, that

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scourge of other countries, could be no longer matter of dread to Great Britain. Upon equally high authority, it was now held that typhus fever was not contagious. Upon the whole, he considered that it was impossible, with propriety, to trust the revision of these laws to a committee. The first proceeding should be, the appointment of a commission, consisting of medical practitioners partly, and partly of men of general science and experience, charged to collect and examine into, and observe facts connected with the propagation of the plague. In respect to the recent fever at Barcelona, the most eminent physicians in France perfectly scoffed at the idea of its being contagious; and even when their famous Cordon Sanitaire was established, with the ostensible design of preventing its diffusion, they knew better than to believe that such was its real or its necessary object. Under these circumstances, he hoped the subject would be further inquired into.
Lord Althorpsaid, that, as far as the present measure went, it had his cordial concurrence. It was a strong fact, that the expurgators were scarcely ever infected with the plague; but, considering all the differences of opinion on the subject of contagion, he thought it ought to be further inquired into.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, he was one of those who felt that, if the public mind could be completely satisfied, and if it could be established beyond a doubt, that the Quarantine laws were unnecessary, it would be the greatest relief to those who attended to the execution of those laws. Among the many duties which devolved on himself and his hon. friend near him, from the situations they held, there was none which they discharged with more difficulty than that of deciding on the cases of foul bills from the Levant. But, when hon. gentlemen considered the consequences of any accident arising from the removal of the Quarantine laws, it was impossible they could weigh the present inconvenience with the probable evils. Whether the plague was or was not contagious, he would not offer an opinion. There were very strong facts to show, that, in certain climates, and under certain circumstances, it was contagious. It was impossible to look at the Report of the committee on the Quarantine laws, and see the circumstances under which the plague had been introduced into Malta, without being convinced that contagion was the mode in
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which it had been introduced. One case detailed was that of a ship which arrived before Malta with two infected persons on board. Before the ship came into port something was transmitted on shore which had been in contact with these two persons, and in consequence of that the plague took place. In the State of Naples the plague broke out in consequence of infection communicated by the garments of some persons, which had been conveyed to one of the villages. The place was surrounded by a military cordon, and the plague was thereby confined to that spot. These circumstances tended to throw a doubt on the theory that the plague was not contagious. The universal feeling of all countries into which the plague had introduced itself, was apprehension of danger. Under these circumstances, even if he were convinced as strongly as Dr. M'Lean, that it was impossible to introduce the plague here, yet, in the absence of such facts, and with a dread of the consequences, he thought we ought to observe proper precaution. If we were to convey an impression to other nations that we were indifferent to precautions, we should subject the trade of this country to a most severe visitation. He was not speaking this without some foundation. The consequence of the impression which had gone abroad, that we were going to depart from our Quarantine system had been, that the countries in the Mediterranean, having a Quarantine establishment, had issued an order for putting every British ship, come from where it might, under Quarantine. So far we had brought on our commerce a severe infliction, in consequence of the discussion of this question. The consul at Marseilles had acted upon the report which had gone forth; while the minister of the king of Sardinia, acting under the same alarm, had given the same orders at Genoa. He had satisfied the Sardinian minister, and he trusted the French minister would be satisfied in like manner, that we were relieving our trade from the burthens of the Quarantine establishment, and making the charges fall on the public at large, according to reason and a sound view of the case, without a relaxation of those precautions which the safety of the public might require. One great change was, that all restraints on ships coming from countries not subject to the plague, were removed. He wished it to be understood by the trading part of the com-

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munity, that the government of this country were not disposed to listen to any complaints which they might make of inconvenience, so as to relax beyond what was recommended by the committee on the Quarantine laws, and that those laws, inconvenient as they might be in some instances, would be inforced.
Mr. D. Gilbertproposed that goods should be subject to a temperature of from 110 to 120 degrees of Fahrenheit, which would effectually destroy contagion. Under all the circumstances, he was glad that government had adopted the present measure.
Mr. Wilmot Hortonsaid, he had documents from the colonies which he could lay before the House, which incontestibly proved the contagion of the plague. It was not to be wondered at that persons employed in packing goods were not subject to the plague, since one peculiar characteristic of the plague was, that it destroyed entirely the strength of the person infected, and rendered him incapable of any exertion. The goods were also packed under the influence of the sun, which might have the effect of the temperature alluded to by the hon. member who spoke last. These circumstances accounted for no infectious matter being brought over in cotton goods.
A Member, whose name we could not learn, said, that he had no doubt, from his own personal observation, that the plague was communicated in the ports of the Mediterranean by contact. So strongly were the Greeks resident there convinced of this fact, that they always locked themselves up when the plague prevailed, and there was no instance of their having been attacked by it. In Smyrna the plague came at regular periods; and, so constant was its recurrence at the festival of St. John, that it had given rise to the proverb "La festa di San Giovanni porta la pesta." Although obliged to differ from the opinion of Dr. Maclean on this subject, he expressed the highest respect for his talents, and for the fearlessness with which he had exposed his life, in order to ascertain the truth of this doubtful and difficult point.
The House resumed, and the report was ordered to be brought up on Monday.