Commons Sitting of 17 June 1825

JUDGES' SALARIES BILL.
On the order of the day for the third reading,
Mr. Broughamsaid, that his opinion remained unchanged as to this bill, which he believed to be unjust and uncalled-for. Let the House only look at the progressive increase of the salaries of the puisne judges. A few years ago their salary was but 3,000 l. a-year, and 25, or rather 33, per cent was then added, to make up for the increased price of the articles of life, and that was deemed sufficient. The prices lowered; but no reduction of the salary was the consequence. Then followed the restoration of the currency, which must again have made a difference in their favour, amounting to 25 per cent more, independent of the reduction of taxes, and other branches of their expenditure. The consequence of these several additions singe the year 1809, was, that the judges' salaries were raised in the proportion of 7,000 l. a-year, as compared to the 3,000 l. with which they were satisfied 15 years ago. If granting these large and unnecessary allowances to the judges, was evincing a faithful stewardship of the public purse, then he did not know what the meaning of an unfaithful steward was. He wished to See the dignity of the judicial situation upheld; but he disliked to see it done at this expense; and still more he disliked their being placed in the track of promotion, or translation, like the bishops; because he was convinced that in the law, as in the church, such prospects were detrimental to the public service.
Mr. John Williamsconcurred in the observations which had been made by his learned friend, and regretted that ministers had persevered in carrying the measure through the House. He knew the difficulty of making any general regulation for the particular age at which a judge ought to retire; for some men were as competent to transact business at 70 years of age as others were at 60. It was, however, painfully remarkable to notice the
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age at which judges were appointed, with very few exceptions, to the bench, and more particularly during what might be called the dynasty of the present lord chancellor. His opinion was, that 5,000 l. while in office, and 4,000 l. on retiring, was a fit and proper salary.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that nothing would be more absurd than to establish, as a general regulation, that a judge should not be appointed until, or should retire at, a certain age. Considering the bodily labour to which a judge was subject, provided at the age of 45 he had a character in his profession and sufficient professional qualification, he saw no reason why want of age should be a disqualification. He had no such impression on his mind, that 60 was a proper age. The effect of this increase would be, to induce men to undertake office who had sufficient bodily power to undergo its fatigues.
Mr. Hobhousethought the augmentations had been carried to an extent beyond all reasonable endurance. Why should the judges be paid more than the Secretaries of State? He was one of those who thought that the dignity of a judge was not dependent upon the amount of his salary. Nor could he see the propriety of stimulating the judges to move out of their present quiet circle of society, and rear the younger branches of their families at the west end of the town. Besides, he had to complain that several useless offices were still maintained about these courts. So decidedly opposed was he to the proposed augmentation, that he meant to move, as an amendment, that the salaries of the judges be reduced from 5,500 l. to 5,000 l. The increase was considered by lawyers of different politics as entirely too much. There was another subject to which his learned friend had not adverted—he meant the principle of making the puisne judges immoveable.
Mr. N. Calvertthought there was still a great disproportion between the full salaries and the retiring allowances of the judges, which must have the effect of inducing men to cling to office at a time of life when they were unfit for its duties. He had seen judges on the bench who were labouring under two of the disqualifying infirmities of old age—deafness and peevishness.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that if he were disposed, he could not now increase the amount of the retired allowances, although it was competent for the

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House to reduce it. He contended for the propriety of the scale in the bill, and that it was calculated to induce persons to undertake judicial offices at a time of life when they were best calculated to perform their duties.
Mr. Serjeant Onslowsaid, that he personally knew the efficiency with which the judicial business was performed by the oldest judges on the bench, who were neither deaf nor peevish.
The bill was read a third time. Mr. Hobhouse then moved to leave out "five hundred." Upon which the House divided: Ayes 45; Noes 74. The bill was then passed.

SIR ROBERT WILSON.
On the motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. Abercrombysaid, that as the Speaker was about to leave the chair, he begged to call the attention of the House to a subject of much interest, and to which he was sure the House would lend a favourable ear. He wished to call the attention of the House to the condition of one of its members—a person who had performed the most meritorious services to his country, and on whom foreign princes had conferred the highest honours—he meant his hon. and gallant friend the member for Southwark. He would first state, most distinctly and unequivocally, that he did not wish to attach the least blame to the persons at whose instance his gallant friend had been removed from the army, and still less would he say any thing which could cast the least reflection on his royal highness the commander-in-chief; nor would he call in question the authority by which he had been removed, nor impose restrictions on the prerogatives of the Crown. Far was it from his intention to complain of any opinions of hon. gentlemen upon this subject; nor did he intend, in the slightest degree, to invite a revision of the past. His object was, to persuade the House to do honour to itself, by shewing a sympathy with one of its members, the tenor of whose life, and his public services, had reflected equal honour upon himself and his country. That gallant individual was endowed in the most eminent degree with noble sentiments. His errors, if they were errors, had arisen from the excess of an ardent mind, and from an extreme zeal in the service of his country. It was unnecessary for him to say that the military
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career of his gallant friend, a period of twenty-nine years of service, had been interrupted by a measure which preceded all inquiry. He would ask any hon. member who heard him, whether, in consequence of any thing which had taken place, either there or elsewhere, his hon. and gallant friend was less valued and cherished by his profession, or less esteemed by the House or the country? Sure he was, that every man who heard him would answer in the negative. And, was such a man to have his military glory thus at once and for ever blasted? His hon. and gallant friend had been dismissed without either trial or inquiry. He sought inquiry; he courted investigation; but he was refused. He alluded to this part of the case, only for the purpose of calling to the recollection of the House the temper, the moderation, the great forbearance with which his hon. and gallant friend conducted himself upon that occasion. That conduct, on the part of his gallant friend, was a source of sincere gratification to his friends, and he was sure there were many gentlemen on the other side who regretted, that what they conceived to be their duty compelled them to vote as they did. He confessed, that seeing that this might perhaps be the last sitting of the present parliament, he was inclined to think that the sentiments of many members, hitherto adverse, must now be changed upon this question. Indeed, he would venture to ask them in what light they now viewed the conduct and character of his gallant friend. He appealed also to many gallant officers who had served with his gallant friend, who bad shared with him the toils of the field, and participated in its glory and renown; he appealed to them, whether, if the name of that gallant officer were replaced in that list to which his heroic actions and valuable services entitled him, they would not hail his return amongst them with pleasure and delight. He had cautiously abstained from entering into a detail of the conduct of his gallant friend: he had avoided recounting his brilliant service; and he had done so because he felt it wan unnecessary to enter into a history of that which was already known to the House, and because his only object was, to give those who were acquainted with his services, an opportunity of expressing their opinions upon the subject. Those opinions he fondly anticipated would be of such a nature as to induce certain individuals, in whom the feel-

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ing to do so was not wanting, to represent them in the proper quarter. Let it not be supposed that what had fallen from him was uttered with a view to prescribe a particular course to any hon. member:—let it not be thought that he wished to solicit any gentleman who heard him, to do that which did not emanate from his own free will, and a sense of his public duty. Neither did he wish, in making these observations, to give, in any way, a direction to the royal prerogative. Had he any such intention, his course would have been widely different to that, which he had pursued. he felt it right to say what he had said, because he knew that there must be in the mind of a gracious sovereign feelings in favour of gallant actions and services, such as had been performed by his hon. friend, and in order to shew that a favourable opportunity offered of extending the royal grace and favour in this instance in a manner which would be pleasing to the House, gratifying to the whole of the army, and peculiarly satisfactory to the country at large. All he had done was, to give the House an opportunity of expressing their feelings upon the subject; and if the result should lead to the restoration of his gallant friend to his rank in his profession, he should be glad, that he had been the humble instrument of an act so just and generous.
Mr. Littletonsaid, he could not avoid expressing the gratification he felt at what his learned Friend had offered to the House. To refer back to the errors of the hon. and gallant officer, if errors they were, would shew both bad taste and bad feeling on his part; as, whatever they were, they were now forgotten, by a recollection of the great personal gallantry and devotion which that hon. officer had always shewn to the honours and interests of his profession. His restoration would be hailed by the whole country, and by none more than by those who might at the time, have approved of his removal.
Colonel Wodehousewas sure, that more welcome proposition could not have been made to that House. The learned member had not suggested any course, but had left it to the grace and favour of his majesty, who was known to feel pleasure in passing acts of grace and favour, The military services of the gallant officer, coupled with his great private worth, and supported by the opinion of that House, would, no doubt, have considerable weight in that quarter, where grace and favour were known to dwell.
Lord W. Bentincksaid, it was the opinion of the army generally, that there was no officer in the service, whose bravery and conduct had shed greater lustre on the British arms, or had rendered more essential services to his country than sir Robert Wilson. He would make no apology for his errors, nor question the prerogative of the Crown in dismissing officers from the army, but he thought that if the gallant officer were restored to his former rank, the deed would be approved by the whole nation.
Mr. C. Calvertsaid, it was not his intention to touch upon the military character or services of his hon. colleague, as both were too well known to require any comment from him; but he trusted that the recommendation of the House would meet with a favourable reception in the highest quarter.
Sir M. W. Ridleyhoped, that the unanimous feeling expressed by the House in favour of his gallant friend, would induce an extension to him of the royal grace and favour. He had been long intimately acquainted with him, and in no man had he ever discovered greater integrity, spirit, gallantry, or honour. If the gallant officer had committed errors, they were errors arising from the best feelings, and they must be forgotten in the recollection of his former brilliant services. If the royal favour should be in unison with the opinion of that House, it would restore him to that service to which he was an ornament, and the honour and character of which, he would never tarnish.
Sir R. Fergussonsaid, he had often, and at a distant period, served with his gallant friend, and would venture to say, that no man in the British army had more invariably distinguished himself for gallantry and bravery than sir R. Wilson did. The restoration of his gallant friend to a service of which he had been so great an ornament, would be received by the whole army, as well as by the House, with the greatest possible satisfaction. He hoped that some gallant officers opposite, would bear their testimony to the military character of his hon. friend.
Sir G. Murraysaid, he could not refrain from bearing testimony to the military character and services of the gallant officer. No man possessed those qualities suited to the military service more than that gallant officer; and it would give him great pleasure to see him restored to the service. If his gallant friend would confine his ta-

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lents and abilities within their proper channel, they would be rendered the more valuable to the service and to the country. At the same time, in giving this opinion, he must be understood to reserve to the Crown the full and entire possession of all its present authority over the officers of the army.
Mr. Mansellsaid, that whatever errors the gallant officer might have committed, he had been sufficiently punished for them, and he thought that they ought to be buried in oblivion. He was sure the House and the country would rejoice at seeing him restored to his rank.
Mr. W. Lambsaid, he was one who had voted against the inquiry into the gallant officer's conduct; but he was as anxious as any hon. member could be to see him restored to his station in the army.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that only one opinion seemed to actuate all parties. He wished to add his testimony to the character given of his gallant friend, in regard to his conduct on a former very trying occasion. He was the professional adviser of the gallant officer, and he had the most positive knowledge, that the utmost exertion of human forbearance had been manifested by his gallant friend. He had seen documents which, perhaps, no one besides his gallant friend could have refrained from publishing, but not one word of them would his gallant friend divulge, notwithstanding the aggravating situation in which he was placed.

CUSTOMS CONSOLIDATION BILL.
The House having resolved itself into a committee, to consider further of the report of this bill,
Mr. Huskissonbegged to remind the committee, that on the 25th of March last, he had submitted to their consideration a variety of resolutions, tending to effect very important changes in our system of Duties and Customs, and applying, not only to the manufactures of this country, but to manufactured articles imported from foreign states. He had, on that occasion, entered at great length into a statement of the grounds upon which it was proposed that these alterations should be introduced into our commercial policy; and they were formally recommended in the resolutions brought in. At the same time, in effecting such extensive alterations in a system of duties and customs that had existed through so long a succession of years, he had felt most desirous
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of availing himself of all the light and experience that could aid him in so arduous an undertaking; and he had accordingly invited the suggestions and observations of all practical and intelligent men, who might be willing to afford him the benefit of their counsel and information. He could assure the committee, that that invitation had been very generally accepted; for no person, he believed, who had filled his situation had ever become engaged in a more extensive correspondence than himself, or had received more numerous deputations, or had been a party at more conferences, than he had received and met at the Board of Trade since those alterations were first announced in parliament. The committee would not be surprised to hear this, because it must be evident that many individuals would be seriously affected, or would consider themselves to be so, by the operation of such changes. In mentioning these facts, he did not at all desire to disparage either the motives or the proceedings of those individuals. Having now, therefore, heard, as he might assume, all that could be said upon the subject of those alterations by all the parties interested in their operation, he now came to indicate to the committee how far he had subsequently modified those resolutions which he had introduced. The modifications which he had now to suggest were intended still further to extend and establish a more sound and salutary policy than had hitherto prevailed with respect to our foreign commerce, and in regard to the encouragement of our manufactures and the general trade of the country. In looking at the period of time which had been occupied in considering these changes and modifications, the committee would do him the justice to remember, that it was highly essential that important alterations in a system so vast and complex as that of our commercial revenue should not be inconsiderately or precipitately adopted. The numerous propositions that had been submitted to him in this respect by the many parties he had alluded to, he had received and reviewed with great distrust and jealousy. The alterations he had propounded to the committee in the beginning of the session were founded upon the best information he could obtain, and the most mature deliberation he could bestow upon it. At the same time, he had felt then, and since, that it became him to study other statements, and to get information from all

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quarters; but he might add (as we understood), in regard to some of the parties by whom it had been contributed, that there was in some instances, as between himself and them, an issue of statements as well as an issue of expediency. Now, in the most extensive branches of our foreign manufactures and commerce he had been able, upon the result of all the increased knowledge that he had arrived at in respect of them since he first proposed the alterations in question, to adhere to his original resolutions. In the great and staple article of cotton goods he did not now mean to propose any alteration from the terms upon which it was already left; namely, of reducing the old duty to an ad valorem one of 10 per cent. So of all duties upon woollens, he proposed to adhere to a duty of 15 per cent. In like manner, the duties upon all metallic substances would remain unaltered, excepting in the single article of lead; which was so essential in many branches of domestic improvement in this country, that he was prepared to propose the reduction of the duty still lower than he had put it. In the extensive article of earthenware, he proposed to retain the duties on the footing already recommended. But, in the duties upon some other branches of our manufactures, he had deemed it necessary to introduce some modifications. There were some branches of our linen-manufactures on which he had originally proposed an ad valorem duty of 25 per cent; but, upon which, after having since heard the evidence and representations of all the parties who had been examined before the Board of Trade upon the subject, he was disposed to think it might be expedient to adopt a different mode of levying the duty. Instead of levying an ad valorem duty, he thought it would be expedient to change it for another, considering that it was proper to avoid imposing a duty of the former kind where it could be avoided, and to substitute, in this case, such a one, as on the best comparison that could be made between prices abroad and prices at home, might seem adequate to the due protection of our own trade. Now, the gradual reduction of such a duty, in a certain period of time, to the amount of that ad valorem duty which he had formerly proposed, would either tend to admit the foreign manufactures in greater supply, or cause the British manufacturer, imposing upon him a ne-
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cessity for increased industry and attention to his business, so to reduce the price of his goods as to be enabled successfully to meet the foreign manufacturer. There were several circumstances connected with this particular manufacture that were necessary to be taken into consideration. In Ireland, it was conducted by manual labour alone, he might say, without the intervention of any machinery. In respect of linens, therefore, it might be described as a competition between labour and labour that must subsist between those which were made at home and those which were manufactured abroad. But again, with regard to Ireland, the interests of which every hon. gentleman must look to with peculiar anxiety and favour, it was to be observed, that a great change was effecting in her linen-manufacture; for machinery was now rapidly introducing itself into that branch of her trade, and a great proportion of capital was coming gradually into circulation in that country; and had the foreign manufacture been admitted at the lower duty which he had originally proposed, it was feared that many impediments might have opposed themselves to the progress of the improving commerce; the consequence of which would, probably, have been that, losing its present advantages, the Irish linen trade might never have been able to meet its foreign competitors; that this manufacture would not only not have arrived upon any favourable terms in other markets, but might have been lost to Ireland altogether. The committee would see the difficulty in which any person must stand who was in his situation. If, in the calculation of a certain revenue, a slight error happened to be committed in the original statement, and the produce was discovered to be proportionably affected, or altered, nothing in the world could be more easy than to correct such an error; and the public service would be sensible of little or no inconvenience from the occurrence of such mistake. But if, in the apportionment of duties, or the regulations of trade, wherein the interest of so many thousands were involved, such errors should happen to creep into the measures of the government, the country would long have to brood over the serious consequences that might ensue. It seemed to him, however that by the adoption of a scale of duties on linens, to be lowered in the course of eight years from their present amount to

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the point he had formerly fixed, the committee would not be discouraging the capital now engaged in that branch of our national industry, but would be enabling the home manufacture to rival, in a short period, the foreign, in the foreign market. There was another branch on which he had also found it expedient to alter his original determination; he alluded to glass, on which he had intended to propose a mere ad valorem duty. Glass, however, the committee would know, was exposed to a heavy duty of excise, and hon. members would also be aware, that the amount of duty was not in fact the amount of burthen; for parliament had been obliged to impose restrictions and regulations to prescribe even the mode of carrying on the manufacture, which formed another charge to be borne by the manufacturer. In order to arrive at a just conclusion, he had resorted to all the information he could procure from parties interested, and he had now to recommend, not an ad valorem duty, though a duty considerably less than that hitherto paid. Like the new duty on linen, it would go on gradually and annually decreasing, compelling a corresponding improvement in our own manufacture as the duty was lowered, and foreign competition more freely admitted. A similar alteration he should propose in the duty on paper. That manufacture was also subject to excise duties; and he would venture to say that the projected alteration would conduce very materially to the encouragement of the manufacture. There were some circumstances that operated materially on the manufacture and price of foreign paper; and the most important of these was, that in some cases the exportation to this country of the raw material was virtually prohibited. For example, the exportation of rags was entirely prohibited by the revenue laws of France and of the Netherlands. The consequence was, that its exportation being forbidden, the article was manufactured in those countries below that fair natural price which it would obtain in almost any other parts of the world. From the depreciation of the value of the raw material, they could manufacture paper more cheaply than almost any other countries; and from the restraints imposed on the exportation of that material, we manufactured it, perhaps, dearer than any other people. These considerations had induced them to propose a new scale of duty on paper. Another article to be noticed was the im-
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portation of books. He had left the bill as he found it in respect of what books might be imported into this country; they were such as there existed no copyright in here. No books could be imported that were of a contrary description; though individuals were not prevented from bringing them into this country, if they were not for any purposes of sale, but for their own private use. But he thought it would not be prejudicial to the bookselling interest in this country, if, instead of continuing the very heavy duty at present payable on imported books, which was 6l. 10 s. per cwt., on books of all descriptions, he named a lower one, and he had therefore determined to reduce it to 1l. This duty operated, at present, upon those books, which formed the bulk of almost every library; and the reduction, therefore, might tend, in no inconsiderable degree, to advance the cause of literature, and extend the general diffusion of knowledge. With respect to modern books, upon which the present duty was 7l., he had lowered it to 5l., and he meant to extend the same scale to manuscripts imported. Not to weary the committee, he would pass over altogether a great variety, of articles, which he had also made the subjects of similar alterations of duty. On flax and tow he proposed to effect a still further reduction. In like manner, he had proposed to lower the duties on barilla by a scale of gradual reduction; but finding, that when, about two years ago, some alteration was made in those duties, it was understood that no further change would be made in them for five years after that period, he should suggest that the proposed further reduction of those duties should take effect from the period at which those five years would have expired. Other duties that it was highly material to the public convenience to alter, were those on timber. After many years experiment, it had been found impossible to prevent the duties on timber from being evaded; but it had become absolutely necessary now to obviate what he would not call a fraud exactly, but what was a very commonly practised deception, owing to the state of the duty on planks. The timber duty upon every 50 cubic feet was 55 s.; upon every 125 planks, the duty was 4l. Now, people had lately contrived to cut the planks of such a size and thickness, that one of them, though it could not be measured as solid timber, would afterwards yield many planks; a

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plank of this thickness, therefore, would only pay a duty of 16 s. 8d. perhaps, which was to all intents and purposes, as to the duty, solid timber. A practice so evasive could not but be extremely prejudicial to the fair trader; and he should therefore propose such an alteration of the scale as would bring planks of these large dimensions within the description of solid timber. It was somewhat singular that the evasion had only been recently discovered, and in order to take advantage of it, shipping had been engaged to such an extent as to inconvenience other branches of commerce. He had been especially anxious to lower the duty on all raw materials, but particularly upon dying drugs. Besides changing his original determination on many articles, he had added several that he had omitted on the 25th of March. He had then stated his desire to promote cultivation among the smaller West-India proprietors, by encouraging the importation of all minor articles of produce, and his desire, it would be found, had occasioned several of the additions of which he had spoken. He was aware that, taken separately, none of these reductions seemed to amount to any very large sum, but although he apprehended the Exchequer would but slightly suffer, if indeed it suffered at all, yet taken collectively the sum was of importance. He was not far from the mark, when he stated it at from 400,000 l. to 500,000 l. per annum, and the whole he trusted would operate to the relief and benefit of the manufactures of these kingdoms. Among these was a reduction on the duty of ships built in the colonies, if broken up here. By a strange oversight of the law, such ships were subject to a duty of 50 per cent if broken up in this country. This enormously heavy duty was the cause that a very large and unwieldy ship, that had been built at Canada, and had arrived some time since in the port of London, was not broken up here, as was intended, but sent back. That duty he proposed to reduce to 15 per cent. He was aware that to some gentlemen these details possessed but little interest. They were, however, of the utmost importance as connected with the commerce of the country, and the improvement of its resources. At the present moment they were particularly important; for sure he was, that if that system of combination which now existed in the kingdom could not be repressed by the interposition of the legislature, it must
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be repressed by the additional facilities given to the introduction of foreign Manufactures. It could not be tolerated that the people of this country should be exposed to the difficulties and inconveniences that must always follow on any restraints imposed on the freedom of labour. He, for one, should be fully prepared to say, that if the shipwrights of England, for example, would not act in such a manner as to leave the employment of capital free and unshackled in ship-building in England—if they would not leave the industrious artificers engaged in that branch of trade free to pursue their own occupation on their own terms—it could only remain to the merchants to employ foreign-built shipping. On the same principle, he was prepared to contend, that if our own seamen, listening to misguided men, refused to permit English mariners to engage in the merchant service, the only alternative for the latter would be, of necessity, to employ foreign seamen. After exhorting the artificers generally to renounce every thing like combination, which he showed would only, by fettering the employment of capital, terminate in their own ruin, the right hon, gentleman concluded by remarking upon the necessity of doing away, where-ever it was practicable, with the present system of protecting duties. To prove its mischievous effect, he would only instance it in a single article of very general consumption—pepper. The duty on that article was about 500 per cent on the value—an enormous disproportion, that must effect either a diminished consumption or be an incentive to smuggling. The original cost of this article was about 5d. per lb. The whole consumption of the united kingdom was not more than 1,200,000lbs. a-year, which did not exceed a proportion of about an ounce and a quarter to every individual of our population. This duty he would reduce from 2s. 6d. per lb. to 1s. per lb. This arrangement, he should hope, would greatly encourage the consumption of an article of East India produce. At present he would only add, that the committee was not to be considered as coming to any final adjudication on all the reductions that it was proposed to effect in our present system of duties.
Sir Henry Parnellexpressed himself willing to adopt the recommendation of the right hon. gentleman, to consider the proposed schedule of Customs-duties rather as a measure to form the founda-

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tion of a correct system of taxation upon foreign commodities, than as one that government intended to be complete and final. It was, however, particularly necessary that some notice should now be taken of the duties contained in the schedule, in order to prevent the public from conceiving that every thing was to be so settled, by this night's proceedings, as to do away with the necessity of further alterations; an opinion which might, and certainly would be, generally entertained by all those who had heard or read the speeches delivered on this subject, on former occasions, by the chancellor of the Exchequer and the right hon. gentleman, if the schedule were voted without any debate upon it; without taking some notice of the duties, and now making such objections to them as seemed fit to be made, we might hereafter be told, upon attempting, on a future occasion, to repeal the numerous protecting duties that will still remain; that we were acting unjustly, and contrary to a recent adjustment, on the faith of which new capital had been invested, and extensive commercial engagements undertaken.
It was also important to examine, in some detail, the schedule now under consideration, in order to ascertain how far the duties, proposed to be voted in it, were consistent with the principles of free trade, as laid down by the right hon. gentleman in his speech on the 25th of last March; for it might otherwise be supposed, by those who heard that speech, but who have not read this schedule, that when it should be voted, it would establish an universal freedom of trade; whereas, in point of fact, every one who looks into it must agree, that nothing can possibly be more at variance with those principles, than almost every duty is on each article in this very voluminous schedule. But, in thus describing the schedule, the hon. member begged to be understood, as being fully sensible of the difficulty of the situation of the right hon. gentleman, in having to contend with so many powerful bodies who believe their particular interests will be injured by the measures which are calculated to give effect to those general principles which have been avowed by the right hon. gentleman, and which are undoubtedly the principles that are most consistent with the interests of the community at large; for, although he thought the right hon. gentleman might have carried his resistance
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to these interested parties further than he has done, he felt, and the whole country ought to feel, greatly indebted to the right hon. gentleman for having so clearly and manfully stated and illustrated the principles of economical science which ought to govern all legislation upon our commerce and industry. These principles had never before been so explicitly and ably explained to the House; and, he might add, had not been more accurately and minutely promulgated and illustrated by any of those eminent and scientific founders of the science of political economy, who had written upon the subject of restrictions upon trade; and he had no doubt that, now they were so unequivocally adopted by government, they would soon be universally acknowledged, and allowed to govern all our legislative proceedings. It was under the strongest conviction of the wisdom of the advice which the right hon. gentleman had given to the House, that he now addressed it; and it was for the purpose of contributing, as far as he was able, to render that advice and those principles effective, that he proposed to enter upon an examination of the details of the schedule of the right hon. gentleman. The course he meant to take was, first to refer to and re-state the principles which the right hon. gentleman had laid down; and then to compare the duties which he called upon the House now to vote, with those principles: and if he should succeed in showing that the duties were, as he had before mentioned, at variance with those principles, he hoped the House would co-operate with him, when the proper opportunity should arrive, at some future period, in endeavouring to make another and a more general revision and reformation of them.
The right hon. gentleman at the conclusion of the speech, in which he opened to the House his plan for new modelling the Customs-duties, made use of the following language: "All I ask of the committee is, to take under their protection the comprehensive principle of the system which I have ventured to recommend.—The removal, as much and as fast as possible, of all unnecessary restrictions on trade."*—And, after referring to the old jealousies and alarms of wool-growers and woollen manufacturers in respect of the progress of the silk and cotton manufac-
* See vol. xii, p. 1222.

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tures, the right hon. gentleman said, "Can any thing more forcibly illustrate the general position to which I have already adverted, and which cannot be too strongly impressed on those who legislate for the interests of commerce and industry, that the means which lead to increased consumption, and which are the foundation, as that consumption is the proof, of our prosperity; will be most effectually promoted by an unrestrained competition, not only between the capital and industry of different classes in the same country, but also by extending that competition, as much as possible, to other countries." Here we have the policy of open competition with foreigners, proposed, on the authority of the right hon. gentleman, in the most unqualified manner, as being founded on facts that prove its soundness; and as the true and only policy for this country to adopt. But the right hon. gentleman did not stop here, but went fully into details to expose the injurious consequences of the old system of prohibitory and protecting duties: and this he did in so clear and convincing a manner, that it is most important to enumerate the several evils which he maintained and proved inevitably to belong to them. 1st, He said, "By preventing competition, these duties destroy the best incentive to excellence, and the best stimulus to invention and improvement; they are, in fact, a premium to mediocrity." 2ndly, "They condemn the community to suffer, both in price and quality, all the evils of a monopoly." 3rdly, "They expose the consumer as well as the dealer to rapid and inconvenient fluctuations in price." 4thly, "They are a premium to the smuggler; they encourage all the moral evils of smuggling." And 5thly, "They excite suspicion and odium in foreign countries." No less than five distinct and substantive evils are here declared by the right hon. gentleman to be the necessary consequences of giving protection to our manufactures by imposing high duties on foreign manufactures; and surely no one, who gives to these statements a moment's consideration, can doubt the justness of the conclusions he has drawn, or hesitate to allow, that in every instance in which a protecting duty exists, each of these five evils must of necessity be inflicted upon the community. When, therefore, in future, the House is occupied in discussing the expediency of continuing or repealing any particular protecting duty, we ought, all
1226
of us, constantly to bear in our remembrance these five evils of the right hon. gentleman, and not suffer ourselves to be carried away by the arguments of those members, who, as a matter of course in the first instance, follow the fashion of the day of acknowledging the value of general principles, but who are regularly prepared and quite impatient to assert in the strongest terms the necessity of making the particular branch of trade of which they are the advocates, an exception to the general rule. When, however, any hon. member shall hereafter stand up in his place for the purpose of resisting the repeal of a protecting duty, he will have to shew, either that the right hon. gentleman is in error in his opinion as to the effects of such a duty, or, that the repealing of the duty will be attended with some greater evil to the community than the five evils which are stated by him to be the natural consequences of it. One of these things in every such case the House will expect of him to be able to do, or to abandon his claim to the continuing of the duty. The hon. baronet proceeded to say, that as his object in addressing the House was, to shew the necessity of reducing the duties on foreign manufactures very considerably, which was now called upon to vote; he would begin by making some observations to show how untenable the arguments were of those persons who still urged the expediency of preventing foreign goods from coming into competition with our own. The common-place argument that is used is, that this or that branch of manufacture will be ruined if foreign goods are allowed to come into competition with it; and then a ready inference is drawn, that a protecting duty is absolutely necessary for the purpose of upholding the profits of our capitalists, and securing a demand for the employment of our people. But the object of this argument is, to shut out from our use foreign cheap goods, and keep up the price of our own; or, in other words, to secure to the British manufacturer what is technically called a remunerative price. But this remunerative price being a higher price than the goods would bring if there was no protecting duty, it obliges every member of the community to pay a higher price for the commodities he wants, than he ought to do, in order to benefit that small portion of the people who are engaged in making those particular

1227
goods which could not be made without a protecting duty. Under the plea, therefore, of upholding the public interests by imposing a protecting duty on a manufacture, the interests of the whole community are sacrificed to secure those of the infinitely lesser number of persons who carry on the manufacture; and every case of a remunerative price by a protecting duty, when the fallacy on which it is claimed is removed, will appear to be nothing less than a tax levied on the public at large for the benefit of some small portion of it; or, in other words, the sacrificing of the interests of the public at large to serve those of a small part of the public. In this way it is, that the general system of protecting duties which now exists, for the purpose of securing remunerative prices for nearly all our trades, forms a mass of very severe taxation; but having this peculiar character, that while it takes immense sums out of the pockets of the people, it contributes nothing to the Exchequer. It is by these means that the protecting duty on Canada timber imposes on the public a tax of about 400,000 l. a-year, by restricting the use of Baltic timber; and that the protecting duty on West-India sugar, supposing that it adds only one penny per pound to the price of sugar, on the quantity consumed in Great Britain, makes the public pay for the sugar it uses in each year, somewhat about 1,700,000 l. more than it would pay, if the East-India sugar trade were placed on equal terms with the West-India trade. It is only because these taxes operate indirectly and invisibly, and because these subjects have not, as yet, been sufficiently canvassed to be thoroughly understood, that the public so quietly submits to such a vicious and destructive system; as, however, there is, at last, more knowledge spreading rapidly concerning these things; and as the House is more disposed than formerly to listen to these dry and somewhat abstract reasonings, which alone can dispel the specious fallacies that produce erroneous impressions, perseverance only was now wanting on the part of ministers and those members who wished to effect a change, to make sure of speedily destroying the whole of our prohibiting and protecting legislation.
Nothing, it must be admitted, can be more natural than the opinions which are, in the first instance, so commonly formed
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of the policy of a duty to protect a trade that may be interfered with by foreign competition. After, for example, the workers of copper mines have succeeded in obtaining very high duties on foreign copper, and have embarked large capitals in working poor mines, it is quite consistent, and most natural for them, to resist the repeal of those duties. But when they rest their case on public grounds, then they must fail in being able to sustain it. They may assert, very loudly and confidently, that their capital will be lost, and that they must dismiss their workmen; but to this it may be replied, that their being obliged to discontinue working poor mines will not be followed by the loss of their capital, if two or three years notice is given to them before the duty is repealed, so as to enable them gradually to withdraw it; and that the demand for the employment of the labouring class will not be diminished, because there will exist in the country the same amount of capital as before, to give employment to them; for, though this capital may cease to be invested in working mines, it will not, when withdrawn from them, be idle, but it will either be reinvested by the owners of it in some new trade, or be lent out by them, so as, in the end, to be invested by others in some branch of industry or other. Some loss of capital will undoubtedly take place, but that will be limited to the loss belonging to the operation of transferring it from working mines; and in the deteriorated value of machinery and other fixed capital. But, after all, the question whether the workers of copper mines should be made to suffer any change and any loss, must be determined upon the broad principle of public utility; and, when correctly stated, then the question will be, whether the public at large (including, of course, those concerned in our great copper and brass manufactures) shall pay 6d. per lb. more for copper than it would be sold for if no protecting duty existed, and, if foreign copper could be freely imported, for the sole purpose of enabling a certain number of persons to go on working poor mines in Cornwall. When the mischievous effect of such an additional price is considered on all our manufactures in which copper is used, in respect to their being able to compete with foreign manufactures of the same kind, and in taxing to this amount all consumers of copper goods, the injustice and the public injury

1229
that is the result of giving this legislative encouragement to those persons who are engaged in working copper mines, are so palpable, that it is quite manifest that it ought to be withdrawn with the least possible delay. The workers of the mines should be plainly and openly told, "we allow you will be put to great inconvenience, and to some loss; we are aware that your workmen will be exposed to difficulties in looking for new employment; but all this inconvenience, loss, and difficulty, must be encountered for the good of the public, because the continuing of the encouragement which you have by high duties, inflicts upon the community at large inconvenience and losses of a far more general character and of a much greater extent than any that you can suffer. Sufficient time shall be allowed to you to make your arrangements for gradually abandoning those mines which will no longer yield a profit without the aid of a remunerative price by act of parliament; but beyond this you must expect from parliament no further indulgence." And so with respect to many other trades that are now upheld by a protecting duty. The parties concerned should be all treated in the same manner, and made to give way to the commanding principle of public utility. But then, no doubt, it will be strongly insisted upon by the persons engaged in all these trades, that they will all be ruined; and, with them, the whole trade of the country; and that nothing but general bankruptcy will prevail. There could be, however, no grounds for anticipating or apprehending any such consequences; for a slight degree of reflection will show that the importation of foreign goods cannot be followed by any diminution in the general amount of our own manufactures. The very circumstance of importing foreign goods must, of itself, secure as great an extent, on the whole, of domestic manufactures, after such goods are admitted, as existed while they were excluded. The erroneous opinions that are formed respecting the supposed injurious effects of importing foreign goods, arise from omitting to bear in mind this elementary principle, that, if we buy we must also sell, in order to provide the means of paying for what we buy; and that, if we import foreign goods, we must export domestic goods to pay for them: just, therefore, in proportion as we import more foreign goods,
1230
when the duties shall be taken off, than we did before, we shall create, by the importation, a new demand for domestic manufactures, to be exported to pay for them. In place, therefore, of the general repeal of protecting duties, and an extensive importation of foreign goods destroying all our manufactures, it will, in point of fact, establish a new demand for them; and, though it may be very possible that some particular kinds of some branches of manufacture may be obliged to yield to foreign competition, others, and probably to a much larger amount, will be greatly increased by the effects of foreign importation. The precise effect, in reality, of taking off the protecting duties in respect of our domestic manufactures will be, to transfer capital and the employment of workmen from some occupations in which they are now engaged into others more adapted to the circumstances of the country: and this will lead to a distribution of capital that will, in every way, be much more for the public good; for nothing can be more detrimental to the prosperity of the country than forcing capital, by the fictitious encouragement that these duties hold out, from those channels in which it would naturally be employed, into others that are wholly dependant for profit on the continuance of that encouragement, and not on the peculiar circumstances by which, in this country, decided advantages may be secured over foreign nations. The removal of the protecting duties, by lowering prices on a great variety of goods, would be attended with the further good effect of leaving more money in the pockets of the people at large to purchase additional quantities of commodities; and as, no doubt, a considerable portion of it would be spent in domestic manufactures, in this way, the allowing of foreign manufactures to be imported would add to the demand for our own. Another good effect of repealing these duties will be that of multiplying the operations of our foreign commerce by the increase of the importation of foreign goods, and a corresponding additional exportation of domestic manufactures; an object of great importance, as it will greatly add to the employment of the people, the profits of our merchants, and the demand for our shipping and seamen. So that upon the whole, while, in the first place, the repeal of each protecting duty will relieve the country from the five evils which the

1231
right hon. gentleman has so truly stated to be the consequences of every such duty, it will, at the same time, extend the demand for our staple manufactures, and add considerably to our foreign commerce.
The hon. member then said, that he had felt it necessary to refer to the speech of the right hon. gentleman, and to the principles connected with the system of protecting duties, in the way he had now done, in order to lay the grounds for objecting in detail to the several duties that were contained in the schedule. He had, in common with many others, been very much disappointed when he first looked into this schedule; for, after the speeches that had been made this session by the chancellor of the Exchequer and the right hon. gentleman, he expected to have found in it a decided and substantial alteration of the old commercial system; whereas, in point of fact, the alteration that was proposed was little more than one of mere form. The old system of absolute prohibition of foreign goods was certainly done away, but, in place of it, there were substituted duties of so high a rate, that they will be, in every respect, prohibitory duties; and equally effectual in excluding foreign goods as the old plan of absolute prohibition. If, therefore, the schedule be now voted in its present form, it will be absolutely necessary to bring it again under the consideration of the House, in order to alter almost every duty on every article of manufacture that is mentioned in it. After the example of the right hon. gentleman, he would begin his remarks on the schedule of duties, by first bringing under consideration the cotton manufacture. The duty proposed to be laid on foreign cotton goods was 10 l. per cent. This was, in every respect, a rate consistent with the soundest principles; because it would not be in any degree, a protecting duty; but one fit to be imposed for the purpose of obtaining revenue on a trade that could very well bear it: but it was right to add that, in the whole schedule, this duty was almost the only one that fully bore this character.
It was to be observed, that, as there was a duty of 6l. per cent on foreign cotton wool, it was right that some duty on foreign goods should be imposed to countervail this duty on the raw material. When we see that our manufac-
1232
turers of cottons have not made any complaint against this moderate duty of 10 l. per cent, it was well worth while to inquire why there existed so general a consent to it; for such an inquiry would serve to remove difficulties that stood in the way of our being able to judge correctly concerning the rates of duty that are fit to be imposed on other foreign manufactures. The first thing that is to be remarked is, that the wages paid to workmen in the cotton manufacture are higher than the wages paid in France and other European countries: then, the duty of 6l. per cent on the raw material deserves notice; yet, notwithstanding these seemingly unfavourable circumstances, we are superior to all foreign manufacturers, and able to defy their competition. The fact is, that the cost of the production of cotton goods in this country is so reduced by the use of machinery, and by the skill, economy, and established habits of all persons engaged in the manufacture, that the total cost of production of these goods in Great Britain is less than it is in foreign countries, and, consequently, we are able to sell them cheaper, and thus to secure a foreign market for them. The case, therefore, of the cotton manufacture, affords a practical illustration of what it is, on which the case of any other manufacturer must rest, in respect of its being able to go into competition with a foreign manufacturer of the same kind; and shows, that the whole question in any such case that requires to be examined into is, the cost of production of the manufacture here and in the foreign country. In this way we learn how to obtain a fit standard for reference whenever any claim is advanced for protecting this or that manufacture by a duty from foreign competition. This case of the cotton manufacture also affords a practical illustration of a very important matter in all these questions of protecting our own manufactures; namely, that the common opinion is altogether incorrect, that low wages give a country great advantages in carrying on manufactures, over a country in which wages are high. This fact, of low wages conferring no advantages, which is thus practically proved, is ably explained by the late Mr. Ricardo, in his work on political economy—a work that cannot be too carefully studied by all those who may still be disposed to deny the doctrine that he has attempted to prove; namely, that high or

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low wages do not affect the prices of goods, but only serve to diminish or increase the average rate of profit on capital. The great advantage of dwelling on this part of the subject, and of coming to a clear understanding of the nature and effect of wages consists in this, that, whenever we are occupied in endeavouring to ascertain whether any of our manufactures can compete with a foreign manufacture of the same kind, we may leave out the case of wages, and take into our consideration only, first, the quantity of manual labour the particular manufacture may require; and, secondly, the cost of materials: and, in this way, we are able to come to this conclusion, that, in all cases where we employ machinery, and have the raw material as cheap as foreign nations have it, we have no grounds for apprehending any injury from the most open competition. This conclusion explains why, in respect to woollen goods, the duty proposed in the schedule of 15 l. per cent is too high, if 10 l. per cent be the right duty to be imposed on cotton goods. Because, in the woollen manufacture, we use, in all the operations of it, perfect machinery; and, in respect to the raw material, consisting of coarse wool, we have a decided superiority over every foreign nation; while, in respect to fine wool, we can obtain it on nearly as good terms as foreigners can buy it; and also because there is only a nominal duty on foreign wool, while on foreign cotton wool there is a duty of 6l. per cent. Why the right hon. gentleman has selected the precise sum of 15 l. per cent, no explanation has been given. There are no grounds of judging from any thing that he has said on the subject why the duty should be 15 l. in preference to 10 l. or 20 l. per cent. If, on the one hand, 15 l. per cent is proposed as a protecting duty, then it is most objectionable; because the woollen manufacture is clearly so circumstanced as to the use of machinery, and the cost of materials, as not to stand in need of any protecting duty to sustain it when exposed to competition in the manufacture of foreign nations: If, on the other hand, 15 l. per cent be proposed for the sake only of raising revenue, then it is too high a duty; for with the charges for freight, commission and insurance, which amount to from 12 to 15 per cent, it will be in a great degree a prohibitory duty. It was very desirable that the right hon. gentle-
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man should explain the exact grounds on which he has chosen this duty of 15 l. per cent: for we ought not to adopt any duty at random and by guess; but we should see clearly some reason and principle by which we may be directed in acting for the best, on all these occasions, for the public interest. If the question, of this duty of 15 l. per cent, was now under discussion, with due notice to the parties interested, that a lower duty than 15 l. per cent would be proposed as an amendment of the schedule, such an amendment ought to be moved, and a lower duty ought to be substituted; but as we may presume that neither the woollen manufacturers nor any other manufacturers who are concerned in the duties contained in this schedule, expect that any material alteration will be made in them, the better and fairer way will be, to reserve such amendments as ought to be made in it for distinct motions, to be brought forward and fully discussed in the next session of parliament.
In respect to the duties to be imposed, by the schedule, on foreign linens, there seemed to be some reason for continuing high duties for some short period. As but little machinery was now applied to this manufacture, and as the raw material of flax was cheaper abroad than in the united kingdom, this manufacture was much more exposed to be affected by open competition, than any other that we carry on. These circumstances, however, are not, and never can be, a justification for continuing, permanently, a protecting duty in favour of this manufacture; but as attempts are now making to apply machinery generally, in the various operations of it, and as it is possible to make great improvements in Ireland in preparing and dressing of flax, it is reasonable to afford some time to our own manufacturers to be able to meet a fair competition with the foreign manufacturers. What the exact amount of the proposed duties in the schedule is, in comparison with the value of the different kinds of linens, it is not easy to make out, because the duties are to be charged by the piece or yard; but it is clear that they exceed 25 l. per cent, because they have been considerably raised since the right hon. gentleman, on the 25th of March, mentioned it to be his intention to reduce all the old duties to one common rate of 25 l. per cent; in consequence of the urgent solicitations of certain Scotch and

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English linen manufacturers. But, although there appeared to be some reason for agreeing to continue higher duties than 25 l. per cent for a certain limited time, there could be no good grounds for adopting the table of duties which the hon. member for Abingdon had contrived to get into the schedule. By this table, the duties on linen are to be annually reduced, during eight years, until they amount to about 25 l. per cent. An eighth part of a certain sum per yard, on each kind of linen, is to be taken off in each year of those eight years, and perhaps a more curious table of nice calculation of the powers of protecting duties, just to do what is required of them, has never been submitted to the legislature, by the most inveterate economist of the old school. On plain linens, not containing more than 20 threads to the inch of warp, the duty, from the 5th of January 1826 to the 5th of January 1827, is to be 3d. the square yard. And one-eighth part of three farthings (part of the duty of 3d.) is to cease on the 6th of January 1827, and the like one-eighth part of three farthings on every 6th of January for seven succeeding years. In the same way, according as the linens contain more threads than 20 to an inch of warp, up to 100 threads to an inch of warp, the duty in the first instance, is to be from 3d. a yard to 2s.; and a reduction of eight parts is to take place in each of the succeeding eight years, from the 6th of January 1826 on one penny a-year, three half pence a-year, and so on, to 4d. a-year, when the duty is at first 2s. a yard—How any person could suppose that the importation of foreign linen could depend upon whether the duty was one-eighth part of three farthings a year more or less, above a fixed permanent duty of 25 l. per cent, it is not easy to imagine: nor can it be easily comprehended in what manner the Custom-house officers will be able to apply those small fractional reductions of eight parts of such small sums to each square yard of linen; if any linen should be imported. It is to be hoped that the appearance of this table of duties in the schedule is to be accounted for by a wish, on the part of the right hon. gentleman, to get rid of the importunities of the linen manufacturers, for the moment, in any way he could; and that after it has met with the ridicule it deserves, he will take an early opportunity of again bringing the subject before the House, and
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placing it on a more rational footing.—The proposed plan of taking eight years to reduce the duties on linens to 25 l. per cent, and then to make that rate a permanent duty, could not be sustained upon any principle; for 25 l. per cent, with charges for freight, commission, and insurance, would, in reality, be a prohibitory duty. In respect to the fine descriptions of linen; namely, cambrics, lawns, and damasks, if foreigners can make them better and cheaper than we can make them, the protecting duty should only be continued for one or two years at most, in order to afford time to the manufacturers who are now engaged in making these goods to withdraw their capital: for we ought to make up our minds to lose this manufacture, and to allow foreign nations to take possession of it, as one more adapted to their circumstances than to our own. Upon a fair examination of the case, it will be manifest to every one that nothing can be more unreasonable or unjust than to make the people of these countries pay from twenty to thirty per cent more for cambrics, lawns, and damasks, than they ought to pay for them, merely for the sake of propping up this manufacture, and giving to a limited number of manufacturers a remunerative price. As to the other kinds of linen, it is, no doubt, true that our manufacturers are more exposed to the influence of foreign competition than the manufacturers are of cotton, woollen, and other goods. But nothing would contribute so much to bring about a different state of things as the legislature, at once having it generally understood, that after a few years, for instance four or five, all protecting duties should be repealed. This would lead to proper efforts being made, immediately, to introduce machinery, and to stimulate those persons in Ireland who grow and dress flax to drop their old bad habits, and adopt the improvements that have been long established in Holland and other countries. And, if after having had due notice of the intention of the legislature not to continue to exclude foreign linens, they could be imported so as to be sold cheaper than our own linens, then nothing should induce the legislature to abandon its intention; but the linen manufacture ought to be given up, and left with the continent. As the capital now embarked in it would remain unimpaired, it would be ready to carry on

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some other manufacture, and to give as much employment to the people as it now gave; and therefore, in the end, the loss of this manufacture would not be attended with any serious disadvantages. A great error has been made, in regard to this manufacture by laying duties on the raw materials of it. Nothing can be more inconsistent and absurd than that course of legislation, which, on the one hand, seeks to encourage this manufacture by prohibitory duties, and on the other overloads it with heavy taxation. This manufacture, being one particularly exposed to foreign competition, every thing like a charge upon the cost of the production of it should be removed. The whole duty on ashes should be taken off; also the duties on barilla, brimstone, coals, dressed and undressed hemp. There is, still, another regulation that very much affects the prosperity of this manufacture, and that is the prohibiting of the use of cheap foreign corn; for the effect of this being to enhance the price of our own corn, it also enhances the prices of all kinds of raw produce, and amongst other things flax is necessarily dearer than it would otherwise be, and comes into use with a charge greater than it would have upon it if no Corn laws existed: for this reason, all those persons who wish to see the linen manufacture of Ireland continue to prosper, ought to come forward and promote a revision of the Corn laws. The hon. baronet remarked that the schedule contained such a number of articles, that it was impossible to go regularly through the whole of them, but by selecting those which were of the greatest importance, and which were subject to the highest duties, something like an accurate character might be given of it. It is proposed, he said, to impose duties of 50 l. per cent, and even in some cases higher duties, on the following articles:—almond paste, beads, walking canes, empty casks, crystal, pomatum, skates, tobacco-pipes, tooth-powder, sealing wax, turnery, stave ends, and on a great many similar articles. On reading this list, one is led to imagine, that, whoever first suggested the imposing such high duties on such trifling articles, could have had no other object in view but to vex and torment the public; for certainly no principle of any kind can exist to justify these duties. They are not protecting duties, because they do not apply to what can be correctly termed our established manufac-
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tures: and they are not imposed for the sake of revenue, because they are too high to admit of any importation; it will, therefore, be highly improper for the House to vote these duties.—Duties of 30 l. per cent are to be imposed on the following articles: silk manufactures, leather manufactures, lace, brass manufactures, copper manufactures, china, and on several other articles.—In respect to the silk, brass, and copper manufactures, the cost of production of them in these countries may be so much less than it is abroad, in consequence of our machinery, and our having the means of having the raw materials full as cheap, that there exists no reason whatever to justify this high duty of 30 per cent. This will be, in point of fact with other charges, a positive prohibiting duty. In the leather manufacture we have not the same advantages over foreigners, either in respect to machinery or raw materials: but in place of imposing this protecting duty of 30 per cent, the right way of encouraging this manufacture is, to repeal all taxation affecting it; not only the duties on foreign hides and bark, but the whole of our excise duty upon it. With respect to the lace manufacture, there will be this great inconsistency in our legislation, after voting this schedule, that at the same time that we are to protect it with a duty of 30 per cent, a very heavy duty is to be imposed upon foreign thread, which is finer and cheaper than any we are able to make, and absolutely necessary in order to make lace equally good with foreign lace. As to the China manufacture, this so much depends for its success on the taste and skill of the manufacturers, that of all manufactures it is precisely that which ought to be open to competition, in order to stimulate exertion and secure the application to it of study and science. Duties of 20 per cent are to be imposed on hardware, glass and steel manufactures; a rate of duty that is not at all to be justified by the circumstances under which these manufactures exist here and in foreign countries. In the manufactures of hardware and steel, we have all the advantages of machinery, materials, and coals, in a much greater degree than any foreign country; and as to the glass manufacture, though we might lose some of the finer kinds of fabric, we could not be outdone in the great business we now carry on, of supplying ourselves with, and very largely exporting

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the coarser sorts. A duty of 15 per cent is to be laid on earthenware; but surely if there exists any manufacture which has, beyond all question, nothing to fear from foreign competition, it is this manufacture. The duty, in point of fact, is wholly useless, because there is no foreign earthenware made in such quantities as to be able to come into competition with ours. But it is more than useless, it is exceedingly mischievous, in as much as it encourages foreign countries to impose a similar duty of 15 per cent, upon the importation of it into those countries. When, therefore, the duties contained in this schedule are minutely examined, it will appear that they are by no means, such duties as the principles laid down by the right hon. gentleman, in his speech of the 25th of March, have led the House to expect; for, with the solitary exception of the duty of 10 per cent on cottons, there is not a duty on any article that will not be practically, when coupled with charges for freight, commission, and insurance, a prohibitory duty. That the right hon. gentleman would have made this schedule more consistent with his own principles, if he had been left at liberty to do so, no one will be disposed to entertain a doubt; but when it is so manifest that he has been driven off the course which he avows to be the right one, by the influence of persons whose interests are at variance with the interests of the public, the House ought to interfere to support the right hon. gentleman, and secure such an alteration of the duties as a sound system of legislation urgently requires. There is one consequence of the system of protecting duties that has been wholly overlooked by the right hon. gentleman and the chancellor of the Exchequer, and that is, the great loss the revenue sustains, by the exclusion of the importation of foreign goods. It is evident, that very high duties will prevent all importation, and, therefore, the payment of any revenue; but if the principle of protection was totally abandoned, and duties on foreign goods were so adjusted, that they should be exactly at that rate which would not check the consumption of them, then a revenue of from one to two millions a year at least, might be raised by them. If the finest kinds of foreign silks, woollens, linens, and other articles in which foreigners excel, could be imported at a duty of about 10 per cent, great quantities of them would probably be imported,
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and a large revenue would be received in a way less oppressive to the public, than any part of our present revenue is produced. That there is nothing fanciful in the calculation of raising such a revenue by taking this course, is proved by the large sums we now receive by importing some articles of foreign produce. Butter yielded a revenue, in 1824, of 160,000 l.; foreign corn, 175,000 l.; and cheese, 87,000 l.: so, in the same way, beyond all doubt, many other foreign articles would yield a very large revenue if they could be imported on a moderate duty. The parts of the schedule that are really deserving of great approbation, are those which relate to the reduction of duties on the raw materials of manufactures; in this respect the right hon. gentleman has conferred a very great benefit on the public; and when he states that the loss of revenue that will be the result of this reduction of duties is estimated at 400,000 l. a-year, every praise should be given to him and the chancellor of the Exchequer for making use of their means of taking off taxes, to do away those that press on industry and trade. Still, however, it is to be remarked, that, in selecting the taxes to be repealed, both now and on former occasions, which fall on the ran materials of manufactures, ministers have not been governed altogether by a proper principle: for they have omitted to examine beforehand, on the principle of cost of production, which of our manufactures were most exposed to foreign competition; and, in consequence of this omission, they have made reductions of duties on the materials of those manufactures that were best able to bear competition, while they have continued them on the raw materials of those which are the least able to bear it. Thus, for instance, they have taken off the duty on foreign wool, whilst our woollen manufactures have the benefit of machinery, and continued the duties on the materials of the linen and leather manufactures, and of ship-building; that is, of trades in which but little machinery can be used. Whereas, if they had been governed by a proper principle, they would have taken off all the duties that affect the latter trades before they reduced any part of the duty on wool. The duties that are contained in the schedule, on articles of luxury, it is to be observed, are, in almost all instances, much too high to secure the greatest possible consumption, and consequently the greatest revenue. In re-

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spect to the great articles of tea, sugar, and tobacco, this was so obviously the case as not to require any detailed arguments to prove it. The proposed high duties on many of the lesser luxuries are also particularly objectionable, because they affect a class of persons that the legislature ought to take under its special protection; namely, the industrious middle class of society. There was not, however, any foreign article of luxury in common use that was not to be, as heretofore, very highly taxed. On currants, the duty was to be 2l. 2s. 4d. per cwt., or about 5d. per pound, which was about 100 l. per cent on the value of currants. The duty on raisins were to be from 1l. to 2l. 2s. 4d. per cwt. On apples, 4s. per bushel. On eggs, 1d. each. On oranges, 100 l. per cent. On grapes, 50 l. per cent. High duties were also to be imposed on pickles, cucumbers, peas, figs, onions, plumbs, sausages, and many other similar articles. Now, if all these duties were carefully and skilfully revised and adjusted, so as to be exactly at such rates as would restrain consumption in but a moderate degree, then the public feelings and interests would be served and gratified, and a large additional revenue would unquestionably be obtained. There was another class of high duties in the schedule, that was particularly inexpedient and injurious; namely, the duties on articles of food; such as bacon, butter, cheese, potatoes, and rice. What, between these duties; the prohibition contained in the Customs Regulation bill of the importation of all kinds of cattle; and the Corn laws, every article of human food produced abroad was excluded from our use. But it really was time to reconsider the policy of this old system, of sacrificing every one who was not a landlord to the interests of landlords. On all former occasions, up to a very late period, when we have been legislating upon the question of protecting the landed interest, we have, all of us, unavoidably, been ignorant of those principles by which our conduct ought to be governed, for those principles were not, at that time, known and settled. But, as we now have the benefit of recent and great discoveries in economical science, and can see the mischievous consequences of raising the price of food by excluding foreign supplies, in raising the rates of wages, and the effect of raising wages in diminishing profits on capital; and the very injurious effects of diminishing profits on the power of the
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country to accumulate new capital and wealth, and to extend industry and productions, we should lose no time in retracing our steps, and getting rid of every thing like a protecting duty for the special benefit of the landed interest. If, connected with such a course of proceeding, moderate fixed duties were imposed on foreign articles of food, that would not interfere with the useful importation of them, they would yield a very considerable revenue. The hon. baronet said, he would conclude his observations on the schedule, by again giving to the right hon. gentleman the highest praise for the excellent principles he had submitted to the House, when he introduced this measure of a revision of the Customs-duties; at the same time he begged again to assert, that the schedule of the right hon. gentleman was wholly at variance with these principles. He hoped that he had succeeded in making out a case to show that, in every instance in which a protecting duty shall be repealed, nothing but advantage to the public would be the consequence; while between what had been advanced by the right hon. gentleman, and by himself, it was quite clear how numerous the evils are which are the unavoidable effects of every existing protecting duty. The great evil of smuggling arose wholly out of the system of protecting duties. The bill now before the House for preventing smuggling would be altogether uncalled for, was it not for this system; and when we see in this bill, a bill that is justified on the grounds of necessity, a clause as repugnant to every principle of civil liberty (the clause respecting lurking), as the Irish Insurrection act, no stronger argument can be made use of to demonstrate the expediency of abandoning the old restrictive commercial system. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would bring the whole subject again before the House, early in the next session of parliament, and steadily persevere in giving effect to his own "comprehensive principle, of removing, as much and as fast as possible, all unnecessary restrictions upon trade."
Mr. Maberlywas of opinion, that the hon. baronet had not treated the plan of the right hon. gentleman fairly. He had argued it on principle, instead of looking to the expediency which must be connected with the proposed alterations. If the hon. baronet had attended to the opening speech of the right hon. gentleman, he

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would have seen clearly what his object was. He had come forward to relieve the commerce of the country, and he divided the subject into two parts. In the first place, his proposition respected the colonial interest: and his second proposition had reference to the expediency of revising the scale of duties on manufactures, &c., and of relaxing those prohibitory, or, as they were called, protecting duties. Of course, the right hon. gentleman could not immediately say what amount of relaxation should ultimately be extended to each manufacture. That would take up more than one, two, or three years. The right hon. gentleman had submitted his plan in March last; and now, having, in the mean time, given the question every consideration in his power, he stated to the House what he conceived to be at present a fair relaxation. The hon. baronet approved generally of what had been done, but he had an exception. When he came to Irish linen, he supported the protecting duty of 25 per cent, while cotton was protected in a trifling degree. It was entirely a question of expediency as to the time when, and the extent to which, those different duties should be reduced. The hon. baronet had observed, that no reduction had been made beyond 30 per cent; whereas, he would find that duties, amounting to 120, and even 180 per cent, had been greatly reduced. The right hon. gentleman had deviated from his original plan in two or three instances. Linen was one of them; but he had here only deviated with respect to time. In glass, paper, and barilla, some alteration had been made. But, was it possible that the right hon. gentleman could go through the whole trade of this great commercial country, and decide at once what should be done? When the whole interest of the country was at stake, ought he not to act with caution? And yet, after all, he had deviated in a very trifling degree. No man could have had more to struggle with than the right hon. gentleman in the course of this proceeding, and no man could be more entitled to the thanks of the country for the manner in which he had met the interests of different parties, or for the soundness of the views he had promulgated. The hon. gentleman concluded by pronouncing an eulogium on the Board of Trade. The right hon. gentleman who presided over that important department, and whose labours were gratuitous, ought, he con-
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ceived, to be liberally rewarded for the performance of his duties in that office, and not, as at present, derive his salary from another and a subordinate situation, where his duty was scarcely more than those of a paymaster. He trusted the chancellor of the Exchequer would take the case of his hon. colleague into serious consideration.
Mr. T. Wilsonexpressed his approbation of the modifications which had been introduced. He had not, perhaps, adopted the ideas of free trade quite so rapidly as some other gentlemen; but he felt confident that, by surrendering some apparent advantages, we should ultimately derive solid benefit from the course of policy which the government was pursuing.
Mr. Brightsuggested that it would be advantageous to the West Indies if facilities were afforded to the introduction of the productions of the warmer climates. He instanced almonds, grapes, and currants, which he had no doubt would thrive in the West Indies; and thus a valuable branch of commerce, at present confined to the countries bordering the Mediterranean, might be transferred to our own colonies. He thought, also, that the matting of the West Indies, instead of being charged at 20 per cent, should be much reduced.
Mr. C. Ellisonrecommended a reduction of the export duty on coals.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the reason why he had not reduced the export duty on coals would apply equally to a number of other articles; namely, the imprudence of attempting to deal with every thing at once. He had, however, introduced a very material alteration. By the present law, all coals carried coastwise were chargeable with a duty of 6s.; he proposed, in the schedule, to reduce this duty to 1s. on coals of a particular dimension. There was a great quantity of coals of a small size, which could not pay this heavy duty, and which was consequently consumed at the pit's mouth. It had been urged that if these coals were brought into consumption they would be found extremely useful, partly in manufactures, and partly for the consumption of the poorer classes. He had had a great deal of conversation on this subject with a number of persons, and among others, professor Buckland, who recommended the alteration now introduced. He flattered himself with the hope of carrying the principle still further; but he was afraid of having too many irons in the fire, lest he

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should not be able to get some of them out. If parliament should hold its hand for the present, he was sure they would do ten thousand times more good than by following the precipitate course which some hon. gentlemen recommended. He trusted that the day would soon arrive, when no article in the schedule would stand at too high a duty for the commercial interests of the country.
After some further conversation, the resolutions were agreed to.