Commons Sitting of 3 June 1825

WESTERN SHIP CANAL BILL.
Lord Folkestoneopposed the bringing up of the report of the Western Ship Canal Company bill, on the ground that the standing orders had not been complied with. He maintained, that the list of subscribers was, in effect, a fabricated list; the names of any persons being inserted as holders of one hundred and two hundred shares, who did not hold more than thirty and fifty; and many persons being inserted in the list as shareholders, among whom were several members of that House, who declared that they had nothing whatever to do with the speculation. For a project, requiring a capital of 1,700,000 l., not more than 250,000 l. had actually been subscribed. It was, in his opinion, a fraudulent speculation, and he should give it his determined opposition.
The Speakerobserved, that, in point of form, the report must be received, but that it would be competent to the noble lord to oppose the bill in a future stage.
Lord Folkestonewithdrew his opposition to the receiving of the report, but declared that he should oppose. the bill when it next came before the House.
Mr. Baringtrusted that the House would not be prejudiced by any thing which had fallen from the noble lord. He had never known a committee more regularly attended than that which sat on this bill; and the circumstances adverted to by the noble lord had been fully considered by the committee before they agreed to the report.
Mr. Brogdenthought the measure likely to be beneficial, and that though there might be some mistakes in the list of subscribers, nothing had been shown to sanction the supposition that it was a fabricated list.
Sir T. Lethbridgemaintained, that the standing orders had been complied with.
Sir J. Yorkesaid, than if the names of. persons who had nothing to do with. the transaction were inserted in the list of subscribers, it was, to all intents and purposes, a fabricated list. In his opinion, the whole concern had been got up in a very suspicious manner.
Sir T. Aclandthought there was no ground for the supposition of the noble lord.
Mr. W. Williamsmaintained, that the list of subscribers was got up in a way calculated to mislead the public. It was the duty of the House to discourage speculations of this description, in which petty shopkeepers and others, imagining that they would only be liable to the extent of the deposit of one pound for every hundred, were tempted to embark their little capitals, and expose themselves to utter ruin.
The Speakerthought it right to observe, that there could not be a greater mistake than to suppose that persons embarking in these speculations were liable only to the extent of the deposit of one pound for every hundred pounds. By one of the standing orders it was expressly provided, that all such shareholders should be liable for the whole cent per cent.
The report was then received.

LONDON COLLEGE BILL.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that as, upon consideration, it appeared that the London College bill came within the description of a private bill, he should move for the discharge of the order for the second reading of the bill on Tuesday next, with the intention of taking it up as a private measure. As gross misapprehensions had gone forth on the subject, he would shortly state, what the nature of the intended bill was, and what it was not. The only object of the bill was, to enable a certain number of persons to form a corporate body, with power to sue and to be sued. Its object was not to create a joint-stock company; except in so far as it was proposed to incorporate the individuals in question by law, to enable them to transfer their shares, to sue and be sued, and to purchase lands as a corporation. It would not give power to any individual to withdraw himself from the responsibility of the whole amount of the debts that the corporation might incur. With respect to the institution itself, it was not intended to apply to parliament for any exclusive privileges; it was not intended that degrees should be given, fellowships or scholarships conferred; or, in short, any of those exclusive privileges be required, of which the two universities were at present in possession. The object of the proposed measure was, that whereas in London, there were many hundreds of
1034
persons who had not the means of obtaining for their children an education at the universities; prevented from so doing, some by the distance, others by an indisposition to let their children go from under their own superintendance; and still a greater number by the expense attendant on a university education; they should have an opportunity, on moderate terms, and near home, of securing so desirable an advantage. If he were to say that 200 l. a-year was the smallest sum at which a gentleman's son could be educated at Oxford or Cambridge, he was sure he should be told his estimate was very low, and that the average of the expense was much higher. This evil was accompanied by all the collateral evils usually attendant on the evil of spending money; by idleness and dissipation, which required the most vigilant superintendance, and the most unrelaxed discipline on the part of the university authorities. He spoke from the very highest official authority, when he stated, that the expenses of the students, at the universities, had increased to such a degree, that, if not checked, they bade fair to injure those learned bodies. It was but just to add, that great pains had been taken to remedy the evil, and that sanguine hopes were entertained that the most salutary effects would result. It was also but just to add, that the greatest improvement had of late years been made in other parts of the discipline of both universities. In Cambridge, classical studies had been more attended to; while in Oxford, the severer sciences, which had hitherto been the peculiar object of the sister university, were much more generally pursued. The effect was beneficial in both cases, by the introduction of a more scientific and useful education in both universities, calculated to promote the progress of knowledge, in consequence of the salutary rivalry which it tended to produce. The object of the proposed institution was, to bring home these advantages to the inhabitants of London, and to put them in possession of the means of giving their children a liberal and scientific course of education. The hundreds of tradesmen and other inhabitants of London, who were debarred from sending their children to the universities by considerations of distance and expense, might have them instructed in London at an expense of ten pounds a year, viz. in three classes of three guineas each and a guinea en

1035
trance; whereas, it was utterly impossible that a similar education could be obtained at Oxford or Cambridge, for less than front 180 l. to 200 l. a-year. That was the principle and ground of the proposed establishment; it being intended to secure the assistance of the best professors of the sciences, letters, and the arts, in all their branches. In order that the situations of these professors should, under no circumstances become sinecures, it was intended that they should not have houses at the colleges, and that their salaries should be very moderate, not exceeding 80 l. or 100 l. a-year; leaving them to rely principally for their remuneration on the number of their pupils; with the exception of the professors of some branches of study, such as Oriental literature, whose lectures, it was probable, would not be attended by many students. One great object would be, to lay the foundation of a good medical school; a thing which could be accomplished only in the neighbourhood of a large hospital or hospitals. The good consequences that would thence result not merely to the civil part of the community, but to the naval and military establishments of the country, were too apparent to require comment. Such places as London and Liverpool were those alone in which so desirable an object could be effectually pursued; and it was therefore intended to lay the foundation of a medical school within a quarter of an hour's walk of one of the hospitals. It was well known that schools for mechanics were now establishing in all parts of the kingdom. He had the satisfaction to say, that thirty of these institutions were nearly completed. The result would be the general diffusion, if not of scientific education, properly so called, of scientific reading. It was not likely that respectable tradesmen would be satisfied to see their sons more ignorant than the sons of their carpenters and their bell-hangers; and he, therefore, confidently expected a great deal of zeal and a great deal of anxiety in support of the new college. It was not intended that there should be any hind of test; it was not intended that there should be any exclusion on theological grounds; theology being, indeed, the only branch of learning which it was proposed not to teach.—The government of the college was to be that of a chancellor, a vice-chancellor, and nineteen directors, who were to have the power of suspending or removing the various pro-
1036
fessors, and of otherwise interfering in the discipline of the college. He would now move that the order for the second reading of the bill be discharged; and give notice that on Monday he would present a petition for leave to bring in a private bill on the subject.
After a few words from Mr. M. A. Taylor, the order of the day was discharged.

QUARANTINE LAWS BILL.
On the order of the day for the third reading,
Mr. C. Grantsaid, he wished to make a few remarks, in consequence of the many misrepresentations that had gone abroad upon the subject. The present bill was founded upon the report of the committee of Foreign Trade, which sat last session. From what had been circulated abroad, it would seem that the committee had investigated the subject of contagion, and had denounced the established system of guarding against its introduction from abroad. So far from this being true, the bill adopted as a principle, that the present system of Quarantine laws was to be adhered to. The last committee had altogether avoided inquiry into the subject of contagion, but had taken their data from the report of the committee of 1819. That report assumed, as a datum, that a system of caution should be observed, and the recent object of inquiry was, how far the present system could be modified with advantage? The committee had gone against the advice of those medical men, who declared that contagion was not a subject of apprehension. The former punishment for violating the Quarantine laws was death; and it had struck the committee that a milder punishment would tend to the better enforcement of the law. In point of fact, the committee had recommended nothing more than had been advised by the medical gentlemen who had been consulted upon the subject. One medical gentleman was of opinion, that during six months of the year the Quarantine laws might be greatly relaxed; and others went so far as to say, that during three months they might be done away with. altogether. Dr. Granville was of opinion that sixty days, including the voyage, would afford sufficient security against that disorder. But, no matter how the opinions of the medical men varied upon certain points, upon one they were all agreed; namely, that it was right to modify and amend the

1037
Quarantine laws, with a view to the reduction of the number of days during which vessels returning from certain ports were to be detained. In regard to clean bills of health he thought it would be sufficient that. vessels arriving with such bills should be visited by proper officers, who would report to the privy council; and upon favourable answers, which would be received by return of post, such vessels might be admitted. It was the intention of.government to appoint some experienced and able medical inspector, whose duty it would be, to overlook all the reports made to the privy council, and to advise them thereon. It would be desirable, also, that he should inspect all the quarantine stations.
Sir Isaac Coffinsaid, his object in rising was, to do away with the idea that the plague never manifested itself to the northward of Cape Finisterre. Every man acquainted with history must know, that the plague had made its appearance in England four times, and had swept away 116,000 persons. His own apprehensions about the possibility of its re-appearance in these parts of the world had been more than once (as we understood) seriously excited. The gallant admiral read a letter of a physician, in which the writer stated that a friend of his, a strong noncontagionist, had thought proper during his sojourn at Malta to shut himself up in the island of Gozo, when the plague had declared itself there. in a few days his temerity cost him his life. He was surprised that the same fate did not overtake Dr. Maclean, who ventured to reside in the pest-house at Constantinople, among the plague patients confined there.
Mr. Secretary Canningsaid, he was anxious that the House should understand that the doctrine of non-contagion had not received any countenance from his majesty's ministers. The mischief which had been produced by the unreserved declarations that had been made by the disciples of this doctrine, was much greater than gentlemen were aware of. Already at Marseilles, Genoa, and Naples, a much longer quarantine was imposed on British shipping, than on the shipping of other European nations. Under these circumstances, he hoped these gentlemen would keep such opinions a little more to themselves; or, if they would continue their experiments, he trusted they would be made in corpore vili, rather than upon subjects which involved the general welfare of the community.
Mr. Humeagreed that the mischief adverted to had been considerable, and he thought it was but right that ministers should do every thing in their power to contradict the opinion that had gone abroad, that our present Quarantine laws were about to be repealed. But, he had to complain that this declaration was not made when the bill was first introduced. He could not help observing on the lecture which had been read by the right hon. gentleman, to the hon. member for Westminster (Mr. Hobhouse) and others who thought with him on the subject of contagion; in respect to whom the right hon. Secretary had expressed a wish that they would keep their opinions to themselves. Now, he was himself by no means satisfied that the principle of contagion did exist, to the degree in which it had been long supposed to exist; at any rate, he believed that the discussion of the question could not be productive of any harm. With regard to the appointment of the medical officer, he thought it ought not to be left to the discretion of any one man to replace, in this respect, that system of examination which had gone on so well for so long a time.
Mr. Huskissonfelt assured, that if the hon. gentleman would only consider the responsibility which attached to the Board of Trade, he would see that it was desirable they should have the assistance of some officer, possessing the advantage of having visited countries where the plague raged; and whose observation and judgment might guide the board in all questions of quarantine. For his own part, he thought this sort of appointment a most important object. He regretted that reports and loose assertions had gone abroad, that government intended to do away with all precautions. He had also read in the newspapers, that a lazaretto was established in Sheerness, in consequence of the contagion having been communicated; when, in point of fact, all the crews were in perfect health. This intelligence spreading to the continent, induced foreign governments to put the Quarantine laws in force against us.
Mr. Denmansaid, he rose merely for the purpose of stating the opinion of an individual on the subject, which might have some weight with the House. He had had the opportunity of looking over the papers of the late Dr. Baillie, and amongst them he found one which showed that he had examined the subject with

1039
great care, and the result of that inquiry was, that it would be unsafe to remove the precautions against infection.
The bill was read a third time.

MAURITIUS TRADE BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. Bernalsaid, it was proposed by this bill, to place the Mauritius sugar on the same footing with that of the growth of the West-India colonies. It was contended, that this measure would not injure the West-India planters; first, because the distance of the West Indies from this country was so much less than that of the Mauritius; and next, because the quantity of sugar grown in the latter colony was so inconsiderable. Now, it appeared from the papers laid on the table, that though at that moment the inhabitants of the Mauritius did not carry on an illicit trade in slaves, yet that they had done so up to the year 1821. This being an admitted fact, he could see no reason for granting the benefit at present proposed to those who, long after the legislature had prohibited the traffic, thought proper to indulge in it. Such a measure was very hard towards the colonists of the West-India islands, who had done their utmost to discourage the slave-trade. The island of Mauritius had, in the first instance, requested to be considered as a port within the limits of the East-India Company's charter. For five or six years they enjoyed the advantages of a free port; they then turned round, and stated, that they no longer desired to be entitled to the advantages of a free port, but that they wished to be placed on the same footing as the West-India islands. The fact was, however, that the trade of the Mauritius stood on an entirely different footing from that of the West-India colonies. He could not conceive on what principle the sugars of the Mauritius were to be admitted on the same footing as those of the West-India colonies, while the sugars of the East-Indies were in effect prohibited.
Mr. W. Hortonsaid, that at the time the Mauritius was captured, it was stipulated that they should be placed in the same situation as our other colonies. It was a mere accident that it was contained within the limits of the East-India Company's charter, and that could not take away its right to enjoy the same privileges as the West-India colonies. As to the alleged inconsistency of the inhabitants
1040
having at one time claimed freedom of trade, and subsequently requested relief with respect to their sugars, cogent reasons might be found for their conduct. In consequence of the order in council of 1816, connected with several local circumstances, the inhabitants found it necessary to abandon the free port, and adopt the alternative which was embodied in the measure now before the House. The hon. gentleman had stated, that slaves had been introduced into the Mauritius, and that it would be unjust to show favour to men who supported it. This assertion must be decided by facts; and the hon. gentleman would find, that for years, the trade had not existed; and that even prior to 1821, it was not carried on to any great extent. The quantity of sugar was not so extensive as to give the West Indies any very serious grounds for alarm. Under all the circumstances, he could not see any just reasons for refusing to place the Mauritius on an equality with the West Indies as to the duty on sugars.
Mr. G. R. Elliscontended, that the condition of this island was regulated at the period of the peace, and ought not to be altered, unless special grounds for doing it could be shewn. He contended, on the authority of the African institution, that the slave-trade had been carried on in the Mauritius, and that the inhabitants had taken an active part in it. He gave great credit to sir R. Farquhar, for his meritorious exertions in suppressing that trade; but he attributed his success to his treaties with the native princes, and not to the co-operation of the inhabitants. What, he asked, would be the effect of this measure on the minds of the inhabitants of the West-India islands, when they saw the inhabitants of the Mauritius, who had carried on this trade in spite of the laws, rewarded for it by the government, to the ruin of the West-lndia islands? The moral effect could not be other than injurious.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, that in the last session it had been proposed to reduce the duty on Mauritius sugar; but the answer of the West-India interest: had then been, that the Mauritius enjoyed commercial advantages in which the West-India islands did not participate. That plea was now taken away; the restrictions which had operated upon the West-India islands, and which did not affect the Mauritius, had been removed; and both interests being now, as regarded commercial ad-

1041
vantage, on a footing, a new ground of objection was taken to the reduction of the Mauritius duty. Accordingly, it was now alleged, that the colony of the Mauritius had. carried on, and did still carry on, an illicit commerce in slaves. This allegation was not supported by fact. Prior to 1820, some smuggling of slaves had taken place; but that practice continued no longer. The Mauritius, then, must be judged, not according to what it had been, but according to what it was. If it was to be laid down as a general principle, that every colony possessing slaves, and not entirely adapting itself to the wishes of parliament with respect to them, was to be visited with a heavier tax, let that principle be applied universally. He decidedly supported the present measure, and thought that the West-India interest was wrong in opposing it. The whole question as affecting the West-India interest, amounted to this—that some 10,000 or 12,000 hhds. of sugar might come into the English market; but if they did not come here, they would find their way into the European market, and would have the effect of determining the general price of the market. He might be allowed to tell those West-India proprietors, that whenever the consumption of this country should equal the supply from the West-Indies, and should verge towards exceeding it, they would no longer be able to maintain their monopoly.
Mr. Brightcontended, that, at the period of the capture of that colony, it was entirely commercial; now, it had become essentially agricultural; and, in a tropical climate, this great change could only have been effected by an increase of slaves. The produce of the island had, within the last five years, increased three fold; so that there must have been a slave-trade since 1820 to have produced this increase. For the assurances as to the cessation of the practice, we had the same assurances in 1816.
Sir Robert Farquharsaid, that the House would excuse his intruding himself on its attention, as he naturally felt a strong interest in the prosperity of a colony whose affairs he had so long administered. In 1810, he proceeded with the expedition to the capture of the Isle of Bourbon, accompanied by that meritorious officer, captain Willoughby, who had shed his blood so often in the service of the country, who distributed the proclamations which held out to the inhabit-
1042
ants, not only the advantages they had enjoyed under the protection of France, but the pre-eminent advantages of British colonies. The prospects held out were free trade, and the fullest protection to the produce of the colony in the markets of Great Britain. How did the facts stand? They had lost the extensive trade they formerly possessed, and they were met with the severest restrictions in the ports of this country. The order of council issued in 1816, giving to those colonies a free trade, was accompanied with so many restrictions, that., coupled with prohibitions in the ports of France, it was a mere nullity. The fluctuations which followed alterations in the British markets, had destroyed all confidence in the commercial body of the Mauritius as to that system. Being thus frustrated in their speculations as to the free trade, they naturally became an agricultural colony, and in consequence of the successive hurricanes which destroyed the cotton and clove plantations, sugar was the only produce which enabled them to provide for their own subsistence, or to pay their taxes. Bourbon being severed, by the treaty of Paris, from Mauritius, enjoyed all her ancient advantages; and the contrast of such prosperity with the depression of the Mauritius, naturally tended to excite the discontent, and alienate the feelings of the inhabitants of the latter. The consequence was, that Mauritius was placed in this anomalous situation, since her connexion with England, that she was sacrificed to European policy; and, as to her trade, depressed, under some reference to our India system, with which she had no other connexion than her position within some visionary boundary some few degrees east of the Cape of Good Hope. There was France on one side encouraging and protecting the prosperity of Bourbon; with the Netherlands on the other, most assiduous in developing the resources of Java; while the Mauritius was permitted to dwell upon her losses, and such a galling contrast. If hereafter any Anti-English European power should arise in India, what co-operation or attachment could we expect from a people, to whom such pledges were given, and by whom such treatment was received? Its importance was best exemplified in the recollection of those effects which it had already accomplished. It assisted, when under the. government of France, in endangering the security of India, and had at one time

1043
captured Madras. Since its accession to Great Britain, those local resources had been applied to great advantage in the Nepaul war; and, perhaps, were at this moment found to afford effective assistance against the Burmese. Mauritius was surely entitled to share in the benefits extended to other colonies. There was no other ground that he could see for refusing the present grant, except what consisted in the peremptory assertion, "sic volo, sic jubeo." His own experience, corroborated as it was by the despatches of sir Lowry Cole, justified him in pronouncing it as his decided opinion, that at the present moment there was no slave-trade carried on in the island of Mauritius. He would allow that four or five years ago a slave-trade was carried on, not by the respectable inhabitants, but by a set of French renegadoes, concerned in privateering. Every step, however, had been taken by the British government to put an end to the traffic, by treaty and otherwise. Radama, prince of Madagascar, and the Imaum of Muscat, had observed the treaty most religiously by which they had bound themselves; and there was every reason to hope, that through the efficacy of the slave laws, and the vigilance of the police, the benevolent intentions of parliament would continue to acquire strength in that part of the world. The House should also be cautious not to confound the slave-trade of the Mauritius with that of the Isle of Bourbon. In his opinion, the whole of the trade was now confined to the French in the latter island.
Mr. Gordonwould vote for the bill, if it were postponed until 1828.
Mr. Plummeropposed the bill, and moved, as an amendment, that it be read a second time that day six months.
Mr. Humewas favourable to the taking off the restrictions from the trade of the Mauritius, but thought that the state of the West-India colonies should be considered also, and the duties unfavourable to those interests remitted.
The House divided: For the second reading 37; Against it 14. Majority 23.