Commons Sitting of 21 March 1823

WAREHOUSING BILL.—
Mr. Wallacemoved the order of the day for going into a committee on this bill.
Mr. Robertsonbelieved, as far as he had been able to ascertain the general feeling of the commercial interests in this country, that there was not a single exception taken to the principle of this bill. But, though it was of vital consequence to the empire in itself, its machinery was such as would be very likely to destroy all its good effect. The object of the bill was, to allow foreign manufactures and produce to come into our warehouses, and to go out of them again, with the greatest possible facility: so that foreign commerce might be carried on in this country, with greater advantage than it could be in others. The unnecessary caution, however, which government had manifested to secure the revenue, tended to destroy the advantages which would otherwise accrue from it. This was the complex part of the bill—when foreign goods were deposited in our warehouses, those who exported them again were, by law, required to give bond for such exportations taking place; and this was usually done by the merchant, captain, or some other efficient authority. Now, when the vessel in which they were exported was once fairly out of our ports, he conceived that these goods were in just the same situation as if they had never been in our warehouses; and, therefore, that no further protection or precaution; on the part of government, was necessary. So much of the bill as recognized this principle he quite approved of; but the government not content with this, called upon all the other nations of the earth to protect our revenue. Now, what had the merchant of the continent of Europe, or the merchant of

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Asia, to do with our revenue? Under this bill, when the foreign merchant took the goods out of the warehouse, he engaged, upon oath, to certify, that they should be landed precisely at that foreign port which the bond specified they were to be exported to. The consequence was frequently this—when the vessel arrived at such foreign port, she found the market already glutted with the kind of produce she carried; but she was obliged to land her cargo, and was not permitted to sail to some other port without breaking bulk. He conceived that this defect might easily be remedied, by the master or other efficient person's giving a bond that such goods should not be re-landed in this country. Then, as to our colonies. Vessels carrying out foreign goods to the colonies were required to pay the duties before they sailed. It was to be recollected, that our colonies stood in a very different situation from what they did two years ago; for their ports were now opened for the importation of foreign goods. Then, if the duties were to be paid on such goods here, how could they, on arriving in the colonies, stand a cent petition with those which did not come from the mother country? He warmly approved of the principle of the bill, and was desirous that it should be rendered as complete as possible.
Mr. Brightwas very desirous that the committee upon the bill should stand over until after Easter, in order that its provisions might be circulated among those to whom the subject was of great importance.
Mr. Wallacesaid, he was not prepared to hear any objections on the score of hon. gentlemen being taken by surprise. The bill had been already printed five times over; and he now proposed the committee in pursuance of a distinct pledge which he had given to an hon. gentleman opposite, that the measure should be brought on at an early period of the session, to give time for mature discussion through all its stages.
Mr. S. Wortleydenied that individuals who were interested in the bill had had sufficient opportunity of ascertaining how far their interests were affected by it. The merchants at Leeds had called a meeting upon the subject, conceiving that a part of the bill was calculated materially to injure them. He was desirous of delay until the result of that meeting should be ascertained.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the bill, with the exception of one clause, was the same as that of last year. That clause was an exception in favour, or, as he should say, in disfavour, of silk and linen goods. The House, last session, had suggested, however, that such a clause should be introduced. Now, he understood the hon. member for Yorkshire to wish that woollens should be included in the same exception; and in that case the hon. member would have ample opportunity to press the introduction of a provision to that effect, in the subsequent stages of the bill. He, nevertheless, conceived that the hon. gentle, man's constituents took a very bad view of their interests.
Mr. K. Douglasdid not conceive there was any ground for apprehension on the part of the persons interested in the woollen trade. We, at present, exported woollens to the amount of 7,000,000 l. annually, of which 3,000,000 l. were exported to continental Europe, 2,000,000 l. to America, and 1,200,000 l. to the, East Indies. He did not conceive, therefore, that we were in much danger from foreign competition. The present measure, he was persuaded, would be extremely beneficial.
Mr. Benett,of Wilts, was persuaded, that the general principle of the bill was excellent. He feared, however, that the framers of it had got into a hobble, by listening to the representations of the persons concerned in the silk-trade. If they persevered in that part of the bill, he should move a similar exemption, in favour of woollens.
Mr. Marryatconsidered this bill of the utmost importance to the country. He thought the prejudices which seemed to exist against it very extraordinary. It did not touch our manufactures; but affected only foreign goods that had been brought into our markets. The revenue, which it was calculated took one-fourth of what was earned and expended by every body in the kingdom, was mainly interested in the bill. There was scarcely a kingdom of Europe into which British goods might not be imported, and from which they might not be exported; and the consequence was, that there they could most easily make up assorted cargoes of any description. Hence it had hitherto happened, that foreign merchants had been able to supply foreign markets to much greater advantage than we could.

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To remedy this defect the bill had been framed.
Mr. T. Wilsonsaid, the reason of the exceptive clause was obvious. Why was the exception made in favour of silk?—because the duties on silk were so enormously high. Why was the exception made in favour of linens?—because the distresses of Ireland had induced the legislature to manifest some feeling for her want of capital. It would be unfair not to extend the same exemption to the woollen trade, as long as it was subjected to the present tax. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman on the general principle of the bill; but he thought it was straining it too far not to allow that there were peculiar cases which ought to be exempted from its operation. If no other member should anticipate him, he would move in the committee, that the word "woollen" should follow the word "linen."
Mr. Philipssaid, the exceptions in favour of silks and linen were only made to meet existing prejudices. It was matter of notoriety, that our commerce had suffered seriously in consequence of the want of a more liberal policy. He had made inquiries respecting the woollen trade, and had learned, that it was in a progressive state of improvement, and could maintain a competition in the foreign market. He objected to the tax upon wool as strongly as any man could do, and would support a motion for repealing it; but he could not give his approbation to any measure which should have for its object to continue the law in its present state.
Mr. Dominic Brownesaid, he would divide the House, unless the right hon. gentleman would allow the bill to be recommitted after the holidays.
Sir H. Parnellwas of opinion, that the bill would be very beneficial to the Irish trade, as it would make a greater opening for the linen manufactures of that country than at present existed.
Sir J. Newport,having on former occasions opposed the principle of a free trade, took the earliest opportunity of declaring, that he considered the opinions Which he had formerly entertained upon that subject to be quite erroneous, and had arrived at the conviction, that the trade of Ireland would be greatly improved by throwing it quite open. An opinion in favour of a free trade, was fast gaining around in that country.
Sir. M. W. Ridleysaid, that the House
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ought to look at the general principles of the bill, and not refrain from proceeding on account of objections being made to some of its details. Particular interests might be partially injured by the operation of the bill, but he was of opinion, that the measure, taken altogether, would be highly beneficial to the commerce of the country.
Mr. Ricardowas of opinion, that the bill was founded on a sound and judicious principle, and one which ought to prevail throughout our commercial code. The country was greatly indebted to the right hon. gentleman for his efforts to liberalize the system of trade. It was impossible to make a law which would not interfere with the interests of some classes; but the one before the House, while it was calculated to advance the public welfare, interfered as little as possible with particular interests.
Mr. Humecalled the attention of the right hon. gentleman to the severe duty of 3 per cent, which was levied by the Levant Company, to the great prejudice of the Turkish trade, and hoped he would take that grievance into consideration. As to the bill, it was his opinion, that it ought to have no exceptions. It was favourable to the general interests of the country, and he would therefore give it his decided support.
The House divided: For going into a Committee, 82; Against it, 8.

List of the Minority.

Benett, J.

Sumner, H.

Bright, H.

Tulk, C. A.

Dickinson, W.

Fane, J.

TELLERS.

Grattan, J.

Browne, D.

Smith, W.

Wortley, S.

The House then went into the committee. After some discussion, Mr. S. Wortley's Amendment, that woollens, as well as silks and linens, should be exempted from the operation of the bill, was negative the remaining clauses of the bill were gone through, and the House resumed.

BEER DUTIES ACTS.—
The House having resolved itself into a committee on these acts,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he did not intend at that late hour to go into the details of the subject which he had to submit to the committee. The course he would now pursue was, to propose certain resolutions for the adoption of the committee. If they were agreed

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to, he should afterwards bring in a bill in accordance with them, and have it read a first time and printed, in order that the House and the country might have an opportunity of considering its provisions, previous to the general discussion of the measure after the recess. The main object of the bill was, to afford the poorer classes an improved sort of beer, at a cheaper rate than they now paid for it, and by that means to add to their comfort; while the consequent increase in the consumption of beer and malt would contribute to benefit the agricultural and other interests of the state. At present there were two duties payable on two sorts of beer; the one was a duty of 10 s. per barrel on strong beer, the other a duty of 2s. per barrel on table beer. Formerly there was an intermediate duty upon an intermediate quality of beer. It was subsequently found necessary to give that up; because it allowed considerable opportunities for evading the higher duties on the one band, and on the other there arose a great prejudice to the consumer. It was obvious, that persons having two qualities of beer at different rates of duty in their cellars, might bring them up, and sell the composition as if all the beer had paid the high duty, and thereby the revenue suffered, while the consumer was far from being a gainer. In short, he paid full duty for a very inferior article. The consequence of doing away this intermediate quality of beer was, to compel the poor man, who could not afford to brew his own beer, to have recourse to that of the highest quality and rate of duty. It was therefore desirable to revert again upon some fair system, to an intermediate quality of beer. But means must be taken to prevent fraud. It was right to fix some price, beyond which the intermediate duty should not be carded. It seemed also necessary to restrain the sale, so far as to prevent the intermediate quality of beer from being consumed on the premises where it should be purchased. It should be competent to any person to take out a licence for the sale of beer or ale, of quality not exceeding in price 27 s. the barrel;—the duty on which should be only 5s. per barrel. The condition would he, that the article should not be consumed on the premises of the seller, in order to prevent frauds. Moreover, he did not think it wise to put an end to the present method of brewing and licenced public houses; and it would be to sufficient advantage to the brewer and
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vender of the intermediate quality of beer, to be allowed to sell any quantity under his licence down to a pint. These were considerable advantages over the publican, because they would not need the licence which the latter was required to take out by the law, and they would be from under the control of the magistrates; and this was another reason for not allowing the beer to be consumed on the premises. The small beer at 18 s. was brewed at the rate of seven barrels from a quarter of malt. The modified duty would allow only five barrels to the quarter, and with 5s. a barrel duty, the beer, which would he a reasonably good article, might be sold for 2½d. per pot. This was a fair rate, and ought to produce a wholesome beverage for those who were now unable to pay for the beer charged with the high duty. He anticipated from this measure considerable advantage to the consumer and the grower of barley; and he flattered himself no prejudice would be suffered by the great breweries and their public houses. He said this, because, though he was opposed to all monopolies; yet, considering the great increase of taxation in the last five and twenty years, and that many measures had been adopted on sudden exigencies with a view to that increase which had led to a particular application of capital to particular branches of trade, he was prepared to admit, that the monopoly in beer was purely incidental. He wished, therefore, to adopt the most cautious mode of returning to a freer trade, and could not but feel anxious that the capital invested in this way should be put to as little danger and inconvenience as possible. He flattered himself, that the measure which he had to propose would fully answer all the purposes which he had mentioned, and should conclude with moving,

1. "That there shall be levied and paid an excise duty of 5s. for every barrel, containing 36 gallons ale measure, of beer or ale which shall be brewed in Great Britain for sale, and which shall be brewed in the proportion of not less than 5 barrels, containing 36 gallons each, of such beer or ale, nor more than 5½ of such barrels, for and from each and every quarter of malt which shall be used for the brewing thereof, and which shall be sold in any quantity at one time, of 9 gallons or upwards, at a rate or price not exceeding 27 s. the barrel, or which shall be sold in any quantity at one time of

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less than 9 gallons thereof, at a rate or price not exceeding 10 d. the gallon.

2. "That every brewer of such beer or ale shall take out an excise licence, authorizing such persons to brew such beer or ale, and shall pay duty for every such licence at and after the same rate as is by law imposed on excise licences to common brewers of strong beer.

3. "That every seller and retailer of such beer or ale, at any place detached from the entered premises where the same is brewed, and not being sold for consumption on the premises or place where sold, shall take out an excise licence, and shall pay for the same the sum of 1l. 1s."

Alderman Wood,on behalf of the 48,000 publicans of Great Britain, 2,000 of which were among his constituents, objected to the measure. He thought it particularly hard, that at least these persons, who had altogether 23 millions of property in their leases, houses, furniture, and stock in trade, should not be allowed to sell the beer of the new quality, as well as other people.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he did not mean to prevent brewers from manufacturing beer of the intermediate duality; but it was obvious, that they could not be allowed to do it on the same premises with their old trade. There must be some precautions to secure the revenue.
Mr. Buxtonthought that the measure was one of an inequitable kind. It appeared, however, to be the wish of the agriculturists, the wish of the public, and—what was beyond the other two put together—the wish of the chancellor of the exchequer, that it should pass. The brewers and publicans had, therefore, nothing left, but to yield with the best possible grace. He thought, however, that the right hon. gentleman ought to impose the duty more fairly.
The resolutions were agreed to.