Commons Sitting of 13 March 1823

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
Mr. Curteis,on presenting a petition from Hadleigh, respecting the Agricultural Distress, expressed a wish, that an hon. baronet who had given notice of a motion for the 20th instant, on the subject, would postpone it, as many members who were favourable to the motion would be absent from town.
Sir T. Lethbridgesaid, the resolutions which he meant to move were of such great importance to the empire generally, that he should be sorry if a single day were lost in bringing before the House and the country the exact state of the landed interest. Having received the most decided assurance from ministers, that it was not their intention to originate any measures, having for their object the relief of so large a class of society, he could not, consistently with his ideas of duty, consent to put off his motion, even for one day beyond the time already specified. He was determined to persevere.
Ordered to lie on the table.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS' BILL.—
Several petitions were presented for the repeal of the Insolvent Debtors' act.
Mr. S. Wortleysaid, that as the act of last year had produced no good effect, he was entitled to ask, whether government had any intention to bring in another measure?
Sir E. Knatchbullsaid, that complaints against the existing law were heard in every part of the country.
The Solicitor-Generalsaid, he could not think of abandoning the principle of the measure; but he would listen with attention to any suggestion that might be thrown out. There was one point in which it was, perhaps, possible to make an improvement: he alluded to the case of persons who caused themselves to be collusively arrested, in order to take the benefit of the act. Perhaps it would be proper to introduce a clause into the bill, to prevent such persons from taking the benefit of the act. He did not, however, think that any great good could result from such an alteration. The individual who contrived to get deeply in debt, if not arrested by a friend, was certain of being arrested by a real creditor. Let it not be supposed, because frauds were committed under this act, that those whose business it was to watch over measures of that nature, had neglected their duty.
Mr. Brightwas very sorry to hear that the learned gentleman despaired of making any great improvement in the measure. What he and others complained of was, that no return of assets had yet been made. It appeared that the expenses of the court swallowed up all the debtor's property. If the act could not be amended, it was better that there should be no permanent law on the subject; for, as it now stood, the fraudulent had a manifest advantage over the honest debtor.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, he should be extremely sorry to abandon the principle on which the law stood; but there were many provisions, by the introduction of which the situation of the creditor might be greatly ameliorated. The fraudulent debtor had, at present, too many facilities for the disposal of his property.
Mr. Grey Bennetcomplained, that, with respect to all questions which affected the morals, the honour, and the character of the people, ministers remained perfectly inactive. When an alteration was called for in the Insolvent Debtors'

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act, or when the subject of the game laws, which were a disgrace to civilized society, was to be considered, ministers took no part in the discussion, but left it to others to devise measures on subjects so nearly connected with the well-being and happiness of the people. The Insolvent Debtors' act, as it now stood, was nothing short of a legalized system of fraud.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that the general charges which the hon. member had made against government he would meet with as general a denial. If the hon. member inquired how ministers were occupied from morning till night, he would not have hazarded his charge of apathy and supineness. The attorney-general had last session introduced a bill for the amendment of the Insolvent Debtors' act; and surely that learned gentleman should not be called on to sacrifice a principle of which he approved, for the purpose of adopting any view which the hon. member might entertain. The solicitor-general had just stated, that he would listen to any suggestion that might be thrown out. Was it possible for any man to go farther? As to the game laws, the hon. member for Yorkshire had expressed a wish that an inquiry into those laws should take place. And what answer had he received? that to such an inquiry he (Mr. Peel) would not only not object, but would lend his best assistance.

GAME LAWS.—
Lord Cranbornerose to bring forward his motion for the appointment of a select committee to take into consideration the game laws. As the object of it was solely to acquire information respecting the operation of those laws, he trusted it would encounter no opposition. His own opinion of their tendency to deteriorate the morals and deprave the habits of the lower classes, had been unhappily strengthened by the number of committals for violations of their provisions during the past year. They had amounted to 1,467, of which 372 had taken place in the last month of the year. He would move, "That a Select Committee be appointed to take into consideration the Laws relating to Game, and report their Observations thereupon to the House."
Sir J. Sebrightimplored the House to take the subject into their most serious consideration. He conjured them to do so, not upon any speculative opinion of his own; but upon his actual knowledge,
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as a magistrate of long experience, of the baneful effect of the game laws. Their operation was far more detrimental than members were generally aware of, and had seriously altered the character of the lower classes. The gaols were filled with persons charged with violating those laws; and amongst the prisoners, he had often occasion to observe young men, who, at the time of their committal, were utterly incapable of robbery—who would not steal even a farmer's goose or his turkey, but were nevertheless sent to gaol for a violation of the game laws; and who, after their imprisonment, were turned upon society, capable of committing any act of violence. He entreated gentlemen, therefore, to consider this motion not as a game question, but as one which affected the moral character of a vast body of the population.
Sir J. Shelleywas of opinion, that the demoralization of the lower agricultural classes was not so much owing to the game laws, as to the distress which prevailed among them, and the difficulty of their procuring adequate subsistence.
Mr. Curwenthought, that to the existence of these odious laws a vast proportion of the offences which came before the judges at the assizes was to be attributed. Perhaps the only mode of altogether doing away with poaching, would be to suffer game to come legally into the market. This, he thought, might be permitted, without too much encroaching on the pleasures of gentlemen who resided in the country. The effect of the game laws was to cast an odium on every gentleman who endeavoured to protect the game on his estate.
Mr. Gippswas anxious to have a return of the number of convictions under the game laws for some years past. By such a return, it would be seen whether the amount was connected with the pressure of agricultural distress. He was persuaded that latterly these convictions had decreased.
Mr. Secretary Peeldid not think that the committals under the game laws had been at all increased by the distress of agriculture. He agreed, however, that it was desirable to have correct accounts of the number of committals in each year; but even should it appear that the number had materially diminished, that would not, in his opinion, be an argument, against the appointment of a committee. He by no means pledged himself to the

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support of any particular course in the committee. He was quite aware that the question was full of mixed and important considerations. That there should be a law for the preservation of game he willingly admitted; but that law ought to be subservient to a still more important object, the preservation of internal tranquillity. He had great doubts if legalizing the sale of game would have the effect of diminishing the number of poachers; but on that, as well as on all the other points connected with the subject, it would be for the committee to inquire and deliberate. Perhaps it might be found advisable to consolidate the game laws, with a view to rendering them more simple and intelligible.
Mr. N. Colburnewas persuaded, that the peace and happiness of the lower classes were materially affected by the game laws. At the same time, he thought that legalising the sale of game would have a tendency to increase, rather than to diminish the evil.
Colonel Woodwas glad to see a more liberal feeling pervade the House, than when the same subject was last before them. He thought the thanks of the country were due to his noble friend for calling their attention to this important subject.
The motion was agreed to.

NATIONAL DEBT REDUCTION BILL.—
The report of this bill was brought up. On the question, that the Amendments be read a second time,
Mr. Tierneyrose, not to oppose the motion, but in consequence of his wish distinctly to understand what it was that the House were now called upon to pass. He wished to know what was the exact bearing of the present bill. It professed to be framed on the resolution of the House, of the 8th June, 1819, that for the better maintenance of the public credit, by the progressive reduction of the national debt, it was necessary that there should be a clear surplus of the income of the country, beyond the expenditure of 5,000,000 l. But, let the House consider what might be the result of the course now adopted. By that course, in the event of any accidental failure in the revenue, the only resource would be, to impose new taxes to make good the deficiency. No resort could be had to borrowing. There could be no creation of any unfunded debt for the purpose;
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because the proposition which the resolution contained was, that the income must exceed the expenditure to the amount of 5 millions. There could not be the slightest doubt, that such was the unequivocal meaning of the proposition; for, when the resolution was agreed to in 1819, there being then only a surplus of income over revenue of two millions, taxes to the amount of three millions were immediately imposed for the purpose of carrying the resolution into effect. He could not see the possibility of getting rid of the fact, that the resolution of 1819 distinctly declared, that the sinking fund must arise from the surplus of the revenue, after defraying the whole of the national expenditure, and not from borrowing or from any other source. He was sure that many gentlemen were not aware of the length to which they were going. The bill under consideration did not merely provide, if the surplus should extend to five millions, that it should in that case be applied to the reduction of the national debt; but it created a permanent annual charge to the amount, of five millions on the consolidated fund. There were two questions on which it was desirable to obtain explicit information. The first was, whether the present surplus of income beyond the expenditure was five millions, or only three? The second was, if the present surplus was actually five millions, how any deficiency that might arise from an accidental diminution of the revenue should be made good? With regard to the first question, he really was at a loss precisely to comprehend whether the surplus applicable to the sinking fund was five millions, or only three. With his present impressions, anxious as he was to maintain the sinking fund, and also, if possible, to take off further taxes from the people, when the bill was passed, he should consider his hands tied up with respect to the latter object. He was very sorry that his noble friend who had given notice of a motion for the repeal of the leather tax, was not in his place. It was evident, that neither that nor any other remission of taxation could take place after the passing of this bill, without exposing the country to a relapse into all the evils attendant on a nominal sinking fund. The way in which he understood the chancellor of the exchequer's plan was, that the sum saved by the extension of what was called the dead weight, over a long course of years, namely, two mil-

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lions, was to be added to three millions surplus of revenue beyond expenditure. Now, how those two millions could be called income, he was at a loss to conceive. It was a sum borrowed every year. For what was the difference in principle between borrowing money on the grant of a permanent annuity, and borrowing money on the grant of an annuity for 45 years? Those two millions could in no way be said to assume the shape of income. It was extremely important that this matter should be thoroughly understood; because, if he was right in his position, the moment the present bill was passed, the Assessed Taxes Repeal bill ought to be stopped, in order that the surplus income should be made up to the five millions, which the resolution of the House had declared to be absolutely necessary. The main question was, whether, supposing there was at present a real surplus of five millions, and supposing that any deficiency of the revenue should diminish it, parliament was or was not bound to extend the revenue by fresh taxes, in pursuance of the resolution of June, 1819.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he would state, as distinctly as he could, how it was that he considered himself entitled to assume, that there was an actual surplus of five millions, applicable to the reduction of the debt. He took it, that after the repeal of the 2,200,000 l. of taxes, the income derived from the taxes might be estimated at 50,000,000 l. exclusive of the sum derived from the arrangement respecting the half pay, &c. The annual expenditure (still supposing no reference to the arrangement of last year respecting the half pay), including the charges arising from the funded debt, the civil list, the army, and navy, &c. was 47,000,000 l. In that view of the subject, there was only a surplus of 3,000,000 l. But he thought he was entitled to assume that, supposing the plan respecting the half pay and pensions should succeed; supposing the annuities should all be sold (which was a likely supposition), that surplus would be increased to 5,000,000 l. He apprehended nobody would deny, that if it were practicable to enter into an agreement with the actual individuals holding the half pay and pensions, that instead of their present annuities for an indefinite period, they should receive 2,800,000 l. for 45 years, the case would stand thus:—In the 47,000,000 l. of expenditure was com-
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prehended 4,800,000 l. being the amount of the half pay and pensions. If, then, the parties holding that half pay and those pensions were disposed to give them up, on the conditions which he had mentioned, it was clear that 4,800,000 l. must be deducted from the 47,000,000 l., and that 2,800,000 l. must be added to it; thus diminishing the expenditure to 45,000,000 l. Now, if that sum of 45,000,000 l. of expenditure were deducted from the 50,000,000 l. which would be the income of the country, after the proposed repeal of taxes for the present year, it was manifest that there would be a surplus of 5,000,000 l. What was the substantial difference between such an arrangement as he had described, and the arrangement by which other parties agreed to pay the 4,800,000 l. on condition of receiving for 45 years an annual sum of 2,800,000 l.? Now, if that sum of 2,800,000 l. were added to the expenditure of 47,000,000 l., it increased it to 49,800,000 l. But then he was entitled to add the 4,800,000 l. received from the contracting parties to the income of 50,000,000 l., which increased it to 54,800,000 l. Let 49,800,000 l. be deducted from 54,800,000 l., and there would remain a surplus of 5,000,000 l. That appeared to him a real bonâ fide surplus, applicable to the reduction of the debt. It was that surplus which, by the bill, it was proposed so to apply. In so doing there was no increase whatever made of the unfunded debt. Nor was there any mystery—any of what was familiarly called hocus pocus. The right hon. gentleman next wished to know how he (the chancellor of the exchequer) proposed to act, through all the vicissitudes which the income of the country might in future years experience, and seemed to think that government could not proceed upon the principle of having a sum of 5,000,000 l. for their surplus, unless they were prepared to state, that in every year, when some fluctuations of the revenue might have the effect of bringing the actual income somewhat below such an amount as would yield a surplus of 5,000,000 l., they would put on fresh taxes, to raise that surplus up to 5,000,000 l. Now, in the first place, he did not think this was a very probable anticipation; and in the next, he did not imagine that it would be possible even to regulate the amount of that fund upon such minute principles, as to be prepared for every possible contingency. He did

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not see why, if the revenue should fall so short, they should not make the surplus up by means of exchequer bills, or some other temporary expedient. He could not conceive why they should not be permitted to appropriate a portion of the revenue to the reduction of their debt, merely because it might happen, in some future year, that they might not have revenue sufficient to reserve the precise amount of such a portion. On mere financial grounds he would rather have a larger surplus fund, than what he considered necessary to apply to the reduction of the national debt. A larger surplus he might have had; but 2,000,000 l. and upwards he had proposed to remit in taxes. He was not at all unwilling to state, that the principle upon which he recommended that remission was this—that he thought it better to give the country the benefit of such a reduction of taxes, than to retain, upon mere financial grounds, a surplus beyond the 5,000,000 l. in question. In fact, he believed that the consequence of that remission would by no means be so injurious to the revenue as might be supposed; but, on the contrary, that the very reduction itself would benefit the revenue. In that event, without any pressure on the people, there would be a surplus beyond that appropriated by the present bill to the sinking fund, with which parliament would have to deal at its own discretion, either by a further remission of taxation, or by a further liquidation of the debt.
Mr. Humesaid, that the resolution of June, 1819, which declared, "that it was absolutely necessary there should be a clear surplus of the income of the country beyond the expenditure of not less than 5,000,000 l.," was immediately followed by another resolution, "that with a view to the attainment of that most important object, it was expedient to increase the income of the country by the imposition of taxes, to the amount of 3,000,000 l. per annum. It was not proposed to make up the 5,000,000 l. by incurring debt, which was the proposition of the right hon. gentleman; for what other character could be given to the plan of selling annuities for 45 years? The provisions of the bill were evidently in direct contradiction to the principle of the preamble. Instead of a clear surplus of income derived from taxation, which was the intention of the resolution of 1819, the right hon. gentle-
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man made up his surplus, partly from taxation, and partly by incurring debt; which, according to the resolution of 1819, he was not at liberty to do. If the principle were admitted, of saving 2,000,000 l. at present by spreading a debt over 45 years, why not extend it to 80 years? In that case, the right hon. gentleman, instead of remitting 2,000,000 l. of taxes, might remit the whole 5,000,000 l. If the surplus of income were to fall short by 500,000 l., the right hon. gentleman must increase the unfunded debt. And yet the right hon. gentleman allowed, that any sinking fund, but one resulting from a clear surplus of income beyond expenditure, was a mockery and delusion. He would move by way of amendment, before the words "five millions," to insert the words "real surplus of revenue not exceeding," and after the words "five millions," to add, "such real surplus to be estimated by the Lords of the Treasury, and to be increased or diminished as the real surplus shall increase or diminish in each year."
Colonel Daviesthought that the plan was peculiarly ill-advised at the present moment, when the continent was about to be convulsed by a war, in which, he believed, we could not avoid taking a part. He suggested, that a considerable reduction of the amount of debt might be effected, by converting the 3, the 3½, and the 4 per cent stocks into a 5 per cent stock, not redeemable for a certain number of years.
Sir H. Parnellwished to have a clause inserted in the bill, to enable the commissioners of the sinking fund to grant annuities for years, to such persons as might propose to transfer into a stock of this description, 3 per cent or other stocks now vested in annuities for ever. He recommended this mode of applying a sinking fund as preferable to the plan provided by the bill; because it would place it out of the reach of the government, and thus secure its being applied to the intended purpose of redeeming the national debt; for if the sinking fund were thus arranged, it would be absorbed in the annuity, and would not be available for any other object. The following was the way in which it would operate in redeeming debt. Supposing 3 per cent stock to be at 75 l. per annum on 100 l. on this stock (or on 75 l. in money), given to the holder of 100 l. of this stock in addition to the regular interest of 3 per cent for 35½ years, making together an

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annuity of 4l. per annum, for this period, would be precisely that terminable annuity, which would be equivalent to 100 l. 3 per cent stock of perpetual annuity. If in place of 1l. per annum, one million per annum was applied on 100 millions of stock for 35½ years, it would extinguish these 100 millions; and if in place of a term of 35½ years a greater number of years were given, the quantity of debt redeemed would be in that proportion greater. The principle of accumulation with which a sinking fund applied in long annuities would operate, was exactly the same as that which was the basis of Mr. Pitt's sinking fund; and the only difference between his plan and the plan now recommended was, that the fund applicable to redeem debt by his plan was collected together in each year, and applied in purchases of stock by the commissioners; whereas, by this plan, it would be vested at once, and be payable to the public creditor, just as the dividends were now paid. The whole object of Mr. Pitt's plan had been frustrated, by converting the sinking fund to the current expenses of the year. By the plan of long annuities, as now recommended, no distinct fund would exist that ministers could make use of. These two plans were the only ones by which the benefit of accumulation by compound interest could be made available in extinguishing the national debt; and as we now had a complete proof of the total unfitness of one of them, it was a proper time to make a trial of the other. But, in thus stating what would be the result of applying a sinking fund in annuities for years, it was not meant to be asserted, that that result which would be the result from a strict calculation of figures, would be the practical result of this plan. This would be influenced by the demand in the market for annuities for years; unless the transfer was made compulsory, in order to secure a certain extinction of the whole debt. By the proposed plan of proceeding, this further advantage would be secured, that a sinking fund of smaller annual amount than that now provided, would be sufficient to redeem the debt. For, if 2,300,000 l. were applied in long annuities for 41 years; 1,300,000 l. for the succeeding 15 years, and 300,000 l. for the following 39 years; 100 millions of debt would be redeemed in 41 years; 200 millions more in 56 years, and 300 millions more in 95 years, making toge-
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ther 600 millions of the principal of the debt. This calculation was founded on the following data, 1st, that 1 million per annum, would increase at compound interest to 100 millions in 41 years; 2nd, that 1 million per annum would increase to 200 millions in 56 years; 3rd, that 300,000 l. per annum, would increase to 300 millions in 95 years, supposing the interest of money to be 4 per cent when the annuities were created.
Mr. Maberlycould not see how the right hon. gentleman could object to the amendment; for it was clear, that if they supported a sinking fund greater than the actual surplus of revenue, it could only be done by increasing the unfunded debt.
Sir F. Blakeconsidered the sinking fund, as far as regarded the extinction of the national debt, a mere fallacy. Its operation might be compared to the taking of a bucket of water from a great reservoir which was abundantly supplied from the fountain-head. The country had gone on paying off, as it was called, the national debt for a number of years, and what had been the result? The debt had been augmented to four times its original amount. The new chancellor of the exchequer had come down to the House to make them a present of a new sinking fund; but the new sinking fund was grafted on the parent stock, and possessed all the faults of its original. The new chancellor of the exchequer had boasted of the benefits that would result from his scheme; but, "timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes." The right hon. gentleman said, that he had a sinking; fund of 5,000,000 l.; but the fact was, that he had only 3,000,000 l. certain; the remaining 2,000,000 l. depended upon contingencies. What would be thought of a married man who, because he had got three children, said he would have two more at all events? Would it not be said that he was reckoning his chickens before they were hatched? So it was with the chancellor of the exchequer; he was reckoning upon his money before he had got it.
On the question, "That the said words be inserted," the House divided: Ayes, 38; Noes, 82.

List of the Minority.

Abercromby, hon. J.

Blake, sir F.

Althorp, visc.

Boughey, sir J.

Barratt, S. M.

Browne, Dom.

Bernal, R.

Burdett, sir F.

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Cradock, S.

Newport, sir J.

Curwen, J. C.

Normanby, visc.

Davies, T.

Pelham, J. C.

Foley, J. H. H.

Price, R.

Griffith, J. W.

Poyntz, W. S.

Haldimand, W.

Ricardo, D.

Heathcote, J. G.

Robinson, sir G.

Hughes, W. L.

Rumbold, sir E.

James, W.

Shelley, sir J.

Jervoise, G. P.

Tierney, right hon. G.

Lethbridge, sir T.

Wharton, J.

Leycester, R.

Wood, alderman

Lushington, S.

Wyvill, M.

Maberly, John

Maberly, W. L.

TELLERS.

Monck, J. B.

Hume, J.

Moore, P.

Ellice, E.

MERCHANT VESSELS APPRENTICESHIP BILL.—
The House having resolved itself into a Committee on the act of the 37th Geo. 3, c. 73, for regulating the number of apprentices to be taken on board British Merchant Vessels,
Mr. Huskissonobserved, that great inconveniencies had arisen in the merchant service, from the existing regulations respecting apprentices. In some vessels, particularly those in the West India trade, a certain number of apprentices were required to be taken; while in the vessels in other trades no such obligation existed. Now, this might be an advantage or a disadvantage, according to circumstance. In peace, it would be a disadvantage to be obliged to have a certain number of apprentices, when for nearly the same expense the same number, of able seamen might be had. In war, it would be an advantage, when able seamen were difficult to be got. One object of his bill would be to make the advantages equal in all merchant ships; and this he proposed to effect by a clause, that every merchant vessel in every trade should have an equal number of apprentices, in proportion to her tonnage. He also proposed to give to apprentices greater protection against impressment. At present those of 17 years of age were liable to be impressed after three years service. He proposed that apprentices should not be liable to be impressed under the age of 21. Another subject which called for the interference of the House was, the desertion of apprentices from merchant ships. It was a common practice to give to seamen on outward bound voyages, two or three months wages' in advance, with the understanding that they were engaged to the ship out and home. In cases of desertion at fo-
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reign ports (which were not unfrequent in consequence of the temptation held out of higher wages), the seaman forfeited whatever wages were due to him; but this was very trifling, as the wages advanced were rarely covered by the voyage out. To remedy the evil, he proposed to give the owners of the ship from which the man deserted, a power over the wages accruing to him from his services in any other by which he might return. The right hon. gentleman moved for leave to bring in a bill "for regulating the Number of Apprentices to be taken on board British Merchant Vessels, and for preventing the Desertion of Seamen there-from."
Mr. Bernalwas glad to see the subject taken up by the right hon. gentleman. He would suggest to him the propriety of taking into consideration the whole state of our laws regarding merchant seamen, and of forming out of them one clear and consistent code. By so doing, he would confer an essential benefit on the shipping, interest of the country.
Mr. T. Wilsonsaid, that the protection which this bill would give to apprentices until they reached the age of 21, would create for the country a nursery of active and able seamen at the least possible expense.
Mr. Humehoped the right hon. gentleman would not hurry the bill through the House, on account of its vast importance.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, that the measure had the support of the shipping interest.
Mr. Ricardowished to know whether the sailors were friendly to the measure. He had no doubt that their employers were so; because they would be enabled to lower the rate of wages by increasing the number of apprentices. He thought the navy would not receive that benefit from it, which seemed to be anticipated. Our sailors would seek employment in the merchant service of other countries, if the rate of wages was unduly lowered in their own. Should that be the case, where would gentlemen find that nursery for the navy, of which they now talked so largely?
The motion was agreed to.