Commons Sitting of 9 July 1823

PENITENTIARY AT MILLBANK.
Mr. Secretary Peelsaid, that in consequence of the sickness which prevailed in the Penitentiary, it would be desirable to confer upon the governors of the institution the power of a temporary removal of the sick prisoners to places where their recovery was likely to be facilitated. He hoped that, under the circumstances, the House, even at that late period of the session, would not object to allow him to bring in a bill for conferring a power of removal similar to that which was possessed with respect to persons confined in the Hulks. He then moved for leave to bring in a bill, to authorize the temporary removal of convicts from the General Penitentiary.
Mr. M. A. Taylorexpressed his approbation of the motion, as in all cases of illness change of air was advised. He denied that there was arty ground for the prejudice that the Penitentiary was un-wholesome on account of its vicinity to the river, for it was am historical fact, that in times when the plague prevailed, those
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persons who lived near the river escaped the infection.
Mr. Hotfordagreed that the situation was by no means unhealthy, and that the sickness was not connected with the local circumstances of the prison.
Mr. Peeladded, that there was no ground, for supposing that the disease lately prevailing in the Penitentiary was owing to its local situation.—Leave given.

BEER BILL.
Mr. Broughamrose for the purpose of moving, that the order for the committal of the Retail Beer Bill be discharged indefinitely. He observed particularly upon the strong opposition which this bill had met with from the brewers whom it was intended to aid, and from the landed interest, whose distresses it would most importantly alleviate. Because, however wheat had risen, he had been abandoned by the latter, and left to struggle against all the influence of the former. He hoped that both parties would know their interests better next session. He should always be at their service, and should be ready to moot the subject again, whenever they should support him; but unaided, he should not be disposed to make any exertion on behalf of parties who seemed so blind and indifferent. His measure for Educating the Poor had met with precisely the same fate. The bills were drawn, printed, and even the blanks filled up, and might be introduced again at any time. He had spent days and nights in perfecting the measure; and because it was beneficial generally, but offered no increase of emolument to any one party in particular, he had been compelled to abandon it.
Mr. Westernsaid, that if the hon. gentleman had persisted, he should have given the bill his support. He complained that, in the taxes repealed this session, there had been an entire forgetfulness of the peculiar distresses of the landed interest. It had been his intention to have moved for a considerable reduction of the malt-duty, but he had been prevented by circumstances; and he now gave notice, that early next year, he would submit a motion for reducing the malt tax to the amount imposed prior to the last war.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, that he was assured his hon. and learned friend had not read the returns made to the House, of the number of public houses in England. The number in London was 4,142; in the country, 43,919; making together 48,061.

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Out of which number 20,612 brewed their own beer. How, therefore, could his hon. and learned friend charge this as a monopoly? The quantity brewed by the brewers was 2,192,371 barrels; by the victuallers, 2,152,644; being nearly the same quantity as brewed by the common brewer. It should be observed, that all the houses in one county did not draw on an average more than 100 barrels a week; and supposing one-third of this to be retailed out of doors: this would be about 33 barrels. He would suppose one person only to become a retailer under this new bill, and that the publican retained one-half of his trade, he would only sell 16 barrels in a year; his licence would be 4l 8s.; this would add rather more than 5s. per barrel, or one halfpenny per quart of beer. He therefore asked, how his learned friend would secure the public by his new bill? He would ask, whether the beer would be equal in quality to that drawn by the publican, who had cellars and every convenience, together with a quick draught? The retailer would have such considerable expenses in the management of his trade, that it would leave him no profit. He would suppose, that in each public-house there were six in family, making 288,000 persons, and, without entering into any calculation of the number of brewers that would be injured, he might venture to say, that their families would be nearly ruined; for at least 24 millions of property was invested in that trade, and if the breweries were included, at least 40 millions. The government would lose at least 100,000 l. a year in the stamp duty on transfer. And was it nothing that these publicans maintained soldiers, paid several licences, and very heavy taxes? The magistrates had control over their houses. They would have none over the retailer. He might send beer to the next door, where persons might assemble without control. The publican had to accommodate every traveller, and keep his house open at a great expense. They were generally a very active, industrious class of men, and very few of them saved money. With regard to the statement of his hon. friend, that it would assist the farmers in obtaining a higher price for barley, this he denied. It was the capital of the brewers that assisted the farmers. They had only to show a good sample of barley, and they were sure to sell, and very frequently got their money before the barley was delivered. They never
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would have received from 70 s. to 80 s. a quarter, had there not been a consider able capital employed. That capital enabled the brewer to force a trade, and by that means to keep down the price, which caused a larger consumption of barley. If the government would take off the duty on beer, it would be reduced to 3d. per quart. This was the only fair and equitable mode of legislating, that the poor or labouring man should not pay more for his beer than the rich. If this plan were adopted, the public would require no other.
The order for the commitment of the bill was then discharged.

JURORS QUALIFICATION BILL.
On the order of the day for further considering the report of the committee on this bill,
Mr. Western Mr. Western moved, that the said order be discharged. The bill, in principle at least, had met with universal approbation; but he was induced not to proceed further with it, in the present session, at the suggestion of the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department. Indeed, the bill, if passed, could not be carried into execution this year without much inconvenience; as the precepts to return jurors issue from the July sessions, which would commence before the act could pass. After some general observations on the subject of the administration of justice in the country, the hon. member asked, whether ministers had taken into their consideration the practicability of accomplishing a more frequent and extensive delivery of gaols by additional assizes?
Mr. Peelsaid, that he had requested the hon. member to postpone the bill, not because he felt a decided objection to its principle, but because so important a measure required more deliberate consideration. He agreed with the hon. member, that a more frequent deliverance of gaols was, as a principle, a good one, but there were difficulties in the way of the details of such a measure, which he had not been able to overcome. He thought there might be an addition to the number of judges, as he saw no charm in the number of judges, unless its antiquity. He believed sixteen would be a more efficient number than twelve. He allowed that great advantage, had been derived to the public from the appointment of a third assize upon the Home circuit, but he doubted whether an additional assize

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could be carried into effect on the other circuits, at least while the number of the Judges remained the same.
Mr. M. A. Taylordid not approve of a third assize, and felt sure that it would be very objectionable to those who formed the juries in the several circuits. Two assizes were quite sufficient. If the labours of the Bench were more than could be reasonably expected from the judges, they ought to appoint others to relieve them, upon those circuits where the extraordinary business might require it. There was one officer who might be immediately put upon that duty. He meant the Cursitor Baron of the Exchequer. It was true that the worthy gentleman who held that office was advanced in years; but it would be well to take care, when his successor should be appointed, to select a person who might furnish the required assistance.
Mr. Scarlettsaid, that when government directed a second assize to be held through the northern circuit, they ought to have taken care to provide the additional expenses to which they had subjected the judges.
Mr. M. A. Taylorsaid, he could take none of that blame upon himself, for he had done all that was in his power for the accommodation of the judges. He had not only done so in his own county, but at the request of lord Sidmouth, he had waited on the bishop of Durham, and asked his lordship if he would have any objection to take in the judges at the Castle in the winter, the same as he had done hitherto on the spring assizes. That right reverend person told him in plain terms, that he would not take them in, and requested him to entreat the lord chancellor to select younger judges for the circuit, alleging the great inconvenience as to the attendance and means of accommodation from the visits of the old judges. He had talked over the subject of these additional expenses with Mr. Justice Park, and had strongly advised an application from the judges themselves upon the subject. Mr. Justice Park had said, that he would have nothings to do with it. The rest of his learned brethren were at liberty to apply if they pleased, but as he possessed property enough for an independence without it, he would continue to bear his own expenses.
Mr. Peelsaid, that the only objection he had to make to the statement of the hon. member was, that the accounts of extraordinary expenses of the judges going
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circuit upon the new assizes had been sent in, and regularly paid by the government.
Mr. Brougham, in corroboration of the statement or his hon. friend near him, said that the very reverend prelate in question had been quite as good as his word. The judges were allowed to come, but it was at their peril. His reverend lordship would have nothing to do with the expense of their entertainment. He took them into the castle but that was all. He thought the least that could be done wag to relieve the judges from any additional expense which might be imposed upon them, in consequence of their labours being thus increased.

FOREIGN POLICY OF THE COUNTRY.
Colonel Palmer, on rising to make his promised motion, began with stating, that the motive which had urged him to address the House, was a conviction of the danger of the country, arising out of the conduct of the government with respect to Spain, and the language of the late address to his majesty upon the subject. He might naturally be asked, considering the protracted debate upon that question, the reason of his not having stated his opinion at the time; and confessed that his reluctance to obtrude himself upon the attention of the House, joined to the expectation that the same opinion would have been felt and expressed by others more worthy their attention, had prevented him in the early stage of that discussion, but that, he had repeatedly endeavoured to address the House upon the last night of the debate. Having then failed in such endeavour, and the question being equally, if not more important to the country at the present moment, he would take the liberty of stating the different view which he had taken of it, from that of every horn member who had hitherto spoken upon the subjects It appeared to him, that truth and sincerity were as necessary to the honour and interests of a nation at of an individual; and upon this ground he contended, that the late address should have openly expressed the indignation of the House at the conduct of France and the allied powers; because, by not expressing it, the nation was exposed to the charge of not feeling, or not daring to avow it. He also contended, that the address should as openly have stated, that inability of the country to render Spain assistance was the

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only reason and excuse foe withholding it, instead of motives unworthy of her character, and injurious to Her interests; inasmuch as she had thereby deprived herself of all claim to that gratitude and attachment on the part of Spain which a more generous conduct would have inspired, and whose independence, at all times essential to England, was at the present moment of vital importance to her interests, whilst, on the other hand, she had totally failed in that object which the cold and ttmid policy of the address was intended to answer; for, at the same moment, whilst as a nation the House had declined that expression of its feelings, which honour, truth, and justice called for; yet, as individuals upon all sides, they had spoken in terms much more calculated to provoke the consequences which the language of the address had deprecated, than the dignified censure which it ought to have contained; and lastly, whilst, to conceal the real motives of neutrality, they had avowed principles repugnant to every generous feeling, and only calculated to confirm that unjust impression of England, which the crooked policy of her government had long stamped in the minds of Europe; it stood but too plain upon the face of the whole transaction, that the conviction of her weakness alone, and the utter contempt of her means of resenting it, had encouraged France and the Allies to dare to act as they had done. He must admit, that from this feeling of necessity alone, it was almost the unanimous opinion of the House and country that peace should be maintained. But, did they not equally feel the danger, nay, the certainty of eventual war: and not as England ought to conduct it, by her navy alone, but wherein, as ministers had declared, she would have to bear the whole burthen, and incur again the same enormous, wasteful, and unnecessary expenditure as in the former instance? Looking, then, to the present state of the country—to the distresses of the landed and other interests—he could not but deplore the infatuation of the landholders, in supposing that a rise in prices, or any thing but a reduction of taxation could possibly relieve them. He was fully sensible of the importance of their interests, and that, as the hear was to the body, so was the agriculture to the country, its vital principle and the source from whence all its prosperity flowed; but as the heart was equally dependent
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upon the body, so was agriculture dependent upon the other interests of the country, and could not be supported at their expense. He remembered the appeal of the chancellor of the Exchequer to the country gentlemen in the last session, who told them they must not despair, because they could not have every thing always as they wished, but take their turn of good and evil with the other interests of the nation; that, at the time manufactures were at their lowest ebb, agriculture was in the full tide of prosperity;—and now, since agriculture had sunk, manufactures had risen; as if, like the buckets of a well; they must let one down to bring the other up. The comparison, however, was unfortunately too just, for agriculture could not possibly be raised by high prices; without sinking the manufactures; arid; unless both could be supported, he feared both would soon sink together. Looking, then; to these distresses, to the opinions and feelings of the people upon the subject, to the unanswered and unanswerable arguments of the numerous petitions for reform, carried by acclamation in the counties which had presented them; and, lastly, to the enormous and undiminished burthen of the public debt, now in the eighth year of peace—what would be the situation of the country when called upon to renew the contest, and to enter again into the ruinous expenditure which ministers had warned them to expect? And yet, to this appalling but true picture of its distress, their only answer was, that being true, it was the best argument for peace; "for if (said the Secretary for Foreign Affairs) "such is the situation of the country, and yet it must have war soon or late, in God's name let it be late. And thus the ministers, already duped and insulted, stayed to be kicked into it, whilst, in their address, they talked of defending the honour of the Crown, and the rights and interests of the people—But the House had been told, as another argument for peace, that the interference of England would injure Spain, by making the war popular in France; and it was to this their strongest and hitherto unanswered argument, he begged the attention of the House because upon it hung the whole question of the true policy of England at the present crisis, and which every consideration for her honour, security, and best interests should lead her to adopt. For how came it, that the French nation, so indignant at the conduct of its govern-

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ment, that ministers in their late speeches had anticipated the most fatal consequences from what they had termed this act of madness in the Bourbons, should, notwithstanding, turn round, and join their government against Spain, if England interfered in her behalf? What, he would ask, was the reason of this apparent inconsistency, but simply because such interference would be the act of a government, composed of nearly the same individuals, professing the same principles, and treading the same steps as that government which made war against the liberties of France at the commencement of her revolution, and continued to be her constant and inveterate enemy from that moment until the re-establishment of the Bourbon dynasty? But if, instead of such government, a government fairly representing the people of England, would declare war to-morrow, not against, but for the liberties of France, which, with her own, were now endangered by the base attack of one, or (upon the principle that those who permitted an injury were parties to the act) both their governments upon the liberties of Spain; such declaration: would in an instant rescue England from the humiliation, disgrace, and danger she stood in, and restore her to that proud footing amongst the nations of Europe, which she once held as the defender of their liberties. For England, by thus defending the liberties of France, conjointly with her own, would at once win the hearts of that nation, which, with herself, were unquestionably the greatest, most powerful, and enlightened nations of Europe; and; betwixt whom the real honour and interests of each would best be consulted by their mutual friendship; although the policy of their governments had hitherto, prevented it, by exciting and keeping alive those jealousies and antipathies; which, however natural and instinctive in the brute creation, were most unnatural, absurd, and barbarous betwixt christian states; and above all, these nations, who seemed by nature formed to cherish and protect each other—the one, invincible upon that element to which she owed all her real greatness, whilst the other was equally powerful on her side; and both of whom, combined, might defend not only themselves, but the whole world against the tyrants who oppressed it. It was an old saying, "when rogues fall out, honest men came by their due;" and thus, out of the disputes betwixt their
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governments, it was to be hoped the people would at last obtain their rights. As to the governments, although bad was the best, the conduct of the French ministers was infinitely more excusable, than our own; for it was but just to consider the difficulties of their situation, in having to support a crown, not only forced upon the nation, but which, from other unfortunate causes, required a more than constitutional force to protect; and this situation, too, not of their own seeking, but to which they had been forced by others, and above all, the ministers of England. For had the powers assembled at the congress, with England at their head, acted upon opposite principles to those adopted, and which had brought Europe to its present state, he firmly believed that France at this, moment would be enjoying the full benefit of hen charter, under the mild sway of the present sovereign. But it was too late to regret the past, and they had only to consider the best to be done at present. He would then ask, if any thing could be so advantageous to themselves and the rest of Europe, as that France and England should join hand in hand to protect the liberties of Spain? and if that was admitted, he would ask again, what should prevent it?—for in ordinary cases, wherein two parties influenced by the same motives, and looking to the same object, were prevented from acting in concert, by any misunderstanding, it was only to remove such misunderstanding and bring them together; and was there ever so glorious an opportunity of bringing France and England together as the present? when England by this bold, decisive, and generous step, would at once root out from the bosom of France every seed of that hatred and jealousy which she had so long borne against this country as the cause of all the disaster, defeat, and humiliation she had suffered, and above all, that indignity, which France never could forgive until England had acknowledged her error, and expressed her regret for the part she had taken in the transaction, not by the speeches of individuals in that House, but by her conduct as a nation—the restoration of the Bourbons. In saying this, he disclaimed all hostility to that unhappy family; and in justice to them, must defend a conduct which necessity alone had dictated, for the ultra faction in France, the Holy Alliance, and above all, the ministers of England, had

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compelled them to the steps they had taken. A noble lord, in his excellent speech on a former night, had said, that from a late residence in France, he had the best reasons for believing, that if England had said "No," France would not have dared to attack Spain; but the noble lord might have gone further, and told the House, that if England had acted as became her, and declared in favour of Spain, the head of the French government, who was universally known to be a liberal in his principles, and had no object so dear to his heart, as the liberties and happiness of his people would at once have thrown himself and people into the arms of England, and have called those ministers to his councils, who, in conjunction with England, might have set the despots of Europe at defiance. The folly and madness, not of the Bourbons, but of the English ministers, had prevented this; whilst the steps they had taken to avoid war, were the most likely to lead to it; for their only hope was, that France, by ruining herself in Spain, might be unable to annoy this country; but even if it should be so, could any thing be more detestable than the policy of looking to the security of England in the misery of France? His own feelings were quite the reverse; for, instead of reducing France, now in so flourishing a state, to the wretched condition of England, he would raise England to a level with France, and all the world if possible to the level of both. This was the true policy which humanity and the best interests of England dictated, and this was the moment for the Crown to exercise that prerogative which the constitution had given it, for the protection of itself and the people, to save both from the destruction which threatened them. For it was not in the wretched papers they had discussed, but in the speeches of the French ministers, and the corrupt majorities which had supported them, that the real danger of England was to be seen. For no one could look to their intentions openly avowed, the progress made in their execution, the pledges of the allied powers to support France, and their insolent threats against Spain on one side, and on the other, to the noble defiance which Spain had hurled at her invaders, as well as the glorious struggle which liberty was making against despotism in other quarters, without seeing, that the present contest admitted of no compromise, but that one
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or other party must inevitably perish. It was therefore to save those from becoming victims who were only the instruments of these base plots against the liberties of mankind; the acts not of themselves, but of the weak or wicked ministers who surrounded them; and to protect crowns as well as people, he appealed to the members of that House, the representatives of the only nation which, through the blessings of her constitution, was capable of the effort, to declare, in its collective wisdom, those sentiments which, as individuals, had lately done them so much honour; and as a nation, to raise that mighty voice in freedom's cause, which might at once decide the contest, and spare those sacrifices by which that cause must otherwise he obtained; for that it must ultimately triumph, no man of common sense, whose judgment was not blinded by his prejudice, could entertain a doubt. It was, therefore, not only for themselves, but for those much dearer, and upon whom the consequences of the present destructive system must inevitably fall; for their sakes, and in the name of that humanity which in a recent case, involved in dangers, doubts and difficulties on all sides, would in its zeal have borne down every obstacle, destroying even those it meant to save, but for the interference of the government, and that eloquence which, when exerted in the cause of reason, justice, and of truth, carried conviction with it; he implored them in this instance, to turn their eyes at home, and befriend the cause of suffering humanity in Europe, in a case which involved no danger, doubt, nor difficulty, but wherein those who opposed it in the name of religion, morality, and social order, had only to follow that plain precept, the essence of them all—simply to do by others as by themselves; and by this precept he called upon that House, the representatives of the nation (or at least, who ought to represent it), to do by the people as by themselves; and to defend, in their own honour and interests, the honour and interests of their country. Nor was it the interests and liberties of England only, but of all other nations, and with which the ministers had at last discovered her own to be identified; this great and glorious cause, the cause of liberty throughout the world, was in the hands of Eng land, and if her representatives would but defend it, the victory was certain.—The hon. member could say much more, and

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state how and by whom such victory was to be obtained; for as to the present ministers, whatever their real feelings might he (and he confessed he was unable to understand them, if they understood themselves), as the advocates and sworn defenders of that system which had brought the country to its present state, and which, in spite of all its sufferings, they still gloried in, and still at their public meetings pledged themselves to defend to their latest breath; in justice to their own consistency, and the feelings of the people, come what might, by their own system they were bound to stand or fall. Nor was it a mere change of ministers that could save the country, but a change of ministers combined with a change of measures, which might enable them to apply the resources of the country, and the energies of the people to the relief of their own burthens, without injury to the constitution or injustice to the public creditor for whilst he agreed entirely with his noble friend, who had stated it was the debt, the cursed debt, which weighed them down, as long as the country had the means of paying it, he considered the property of the public creditor to be equally sacred with that of every other description. But who, he would ask, in the present state of things, were the real friends of the public creditor? Those who would adopt every possible retrenchment which the safety of the constitution and real interests of the country would admit of, or the ministers whose measures must inevitably lead to those consequences which, looking to the French revolution arising out of the same causes, nothing but a change of system could possibly prevent. As to retrenchment, and all which the ministers had been driven to, session after session, by the exertions of their opponents, particularly the hon. member for Aberdeen, whose character and services no one could estimate more highly than himself, the only real advantage the public had derived from them, had been to open their eyes to the impossibility of any real retrenchment under the present system; for all the savings gained by it were more than counterbalanced by exposures, which only increased the resentment of the people, the difficulties of the ministers, and the necessity of all their power, patronage, and means of corruption, to support their measures. The hon. member concluded with stating that having availed himself of the oppor-
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tunity to express his feelings on this important subject, he had no wish to take the sense of the House upon the motion with which he should conclude which was "That an humble Address be presented to his majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, copy of any instructions given to sir William A'Court, for the regulation of his conduct in case of changes made by the Cortes in the internal government of Spain, or such extracts from them as may be laid before parliament without detriment to the public service."
The motion, which was seconded by Mr. Hume, was negatived without a division.

CONDUCT OF CHIEF BARON O'GRADY.
On the order of the day, for resuming the adjourned debate on Mr. Scarlett's motion, "That it is stated in the Fifth Report of the Commissioners, that it is not their province to discuss 'how far, or within what limits, the judges of the superior courts of law are authorised to establish new or increased fees for their own services;' 'but that it will be seen, from the table subjoined (to their report), that a discretion of this nature has, in fact, been exercised to a considerable extent at some period or periods within the last one hundred years; and that, during the time of the present chief justice of the Common Pleas, such ad exercise of judicial authority appears to have occurred in three instances'"
Mr. Goulburn Mr. Goulburn moved, as an amendment, that all the words after the word "years," be left out. Some discussion took place between Mr. Rice and Mr. Scarlett; after which the question was put, and the amendment carried. On the question, as amended, being put front the chair,
Mr. S. Ricesaid, that certainly the mode proposed by his learned friend (Mr. Scarlett) was the most convenient and expeditious way of getting rid of the question altogether; and he would leave, it to those who advised such a course, and who were willing that judges should, exercise the power which was censured by the commissioners in their report, to take the whole responsibility of the proceeding on themselves. He should move, as an amendment to the resolution of his learned friend, to add thereto the following words; "but that it is not stated in

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the aforesaid fifth report, that such in creases of fees had taken place at the sole discretion of a judicial officer for his own emolument."
Mr. Scarlettopposed the amendment, on the ground that it went to add a sting to the resolution, which the circumstances of the case did not justify.
The Solicitor Generalargued, that the amendment was not in unison with the facts stated in the report.
Mr. R. Smithsaid, he could neither approve, of the original motion nor the amendment. The former contained a fallacious apology for the chief baron; the latter implied a censure. Both the one and the other was a departure from the express understanding of the House, which was that no opinion should be expressed on the case at present. He felt himself incompetent to decide on the question, either one way or the other He could not, on looking at the report, and at the chief baron's defence, declare him to be innocent; but it was impossible S r him to pronounce an opinion on the subject, on almost the last day of the session, and without sufficient information. The case ought to rest until the ensuing session.
Captain O'Gradydefended the conduct of the chief baron, who, he contended, had made out a good case, both with reference to law and usage. He might, undoubtedly, have been mistaken in his view off the subject; but it did not therefore follow, that he was culpable and corrupt. He (captain O'G.) was most anxious, that the decision of the House should be come to in the present session.
Mr. Secretary Peelcould see no benefit that was likely to accrue from postponing the question to another session. If it were, put off for six months, would they, in 1824—when their recollection of the facts would be weakened, and when they would hot be able to command a more numerous attendance of members than at present—be in a better situation for deciding, than they were at present? If this practice of regulating fees were an improper one, it, would be better to bring in a bill for as abolition, than harass and condemn an individual, by keeping a series of criminatory resolutions suspended over his head.
Sir H. Parnellsaid, that as it was distinctly understood that the investigation was to be renewed next session, he had taken no part in it. For the same reason,
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he could not support the present resolution. He should oppose any thing that looked like a decision on the charges; and would refrain from offering an opinion on them.
Lord A. Hamiltonunderstood that no resolution but of facts was to he, placed on their Journals; and that circumstance had kept many members away, who would otherwise have been present. It was, he admitted, most irksome, that a judge should have charges hanging over him, while he was exercising his judicial functions. But, whose fault was that? The fault of the gentlemen opposite. The delay came entirely from the other side of the House. He would ask those gentlemen who wished to set the question at rest now, whether a decision, adopted at such a period of the session, and in such a House, could carry any weight with it?
Mr. Hutchinsonsaid, he had all along declared that he was ready to go on with this inquiry, provided the House would come to the plain proposition of acquittal or condemnation. His hon. friend (Mr. S. Rice) had, however, pursued a course which appeared to him to be most unfair to the Irish public and to the chief baron. He had importuned the House, until he had caused to be entered on the Journals a series of what he called resolutions of fact, but which contained matter of crimination. He was of opinion, that the question should be put an end to now; because he did not believe his hon. friend had any intention of bringing it forward next session. If he meant to institute any ulterior proceeding, let him erase those resolutions, which did not advance his purpose one jot. He believed the chief baron to be innocent. If the question were to be considered, it would be found full of difficulty; and in the end he was sure they would have to acquit the chief baron altogether. At all events, if they discovered an error of judgment in his conduct, he was convinced they would acquit him of corrupt motives. He could, not, therefore, consent that those resolutions, which were of a criminatory character, should be suffered to hang over the head of the chief baron.
Mr. Wynnthought its would be better to pass the two resolutions now before them in the first place; and afterwards to proceed to the third.
Mr. S. Ricehaving withdraw his amendment, the resolution was agreed to.
Mr. Scarlettthen observed, that, after

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a mature consideration of the subject, he had prepared certain resolutions which he had intended to move by way of amendment on the original resolutions. After what had passed, however, he would content himself with moving one of them, only; namely, "That this House, under all the circumstances above stated, does not deem it necessary to adopt any further proceeding in the case of the chief baron O'Grady."
Mr. Wynnfelt himself compelled to oppose this resolution. The question here was, whether a person who had taken improper and unwarrantable fees, assuming that that could be proved, ought to be continued in the high situation which he occupied in the judicial administration of the country? Now, when such a question was to be decided, it was surely imperative on the House to institute a strict inquiry. The integrity of a judge, like the chastity of a woman, or the courage of a Soldier, was a matter of that delicate nature, that it ought to be above all suspicion; and this being the case, it made no difference to the importance or the necessity of the inquiry, whether the excess in the fees charged by the chief baron was confined to so many pence or so many pounds. The right hon. gentleman then adverted to the reports of the commissioners of inquiry, and animadverted on the conduct therein imputed to the chief baron; to which charges that judge had not hitherto offered such a defence as ought to preclude the House from adopting some ulterior proceeding.
Mr. Alderman Bridgeswas decidedly for immediate investigation. He thought further delay in every respect inexpedient and improper.
Captain O'Gradysaid, the fact was, that the chief baron's defence, as contained in his second letter, was founded on matters contained in a report which had not been published when his first letter was written. It would be a little too hard if the House should concur with the learned member for Peterborough in making it matter of imputation against the chief baron, that he had, in the hurry of his first letter, misnamed a document, by terming that a decree which was in fact an exemplification. It was not, therefore, a new defence which was contained in his second letter; but a defence on new matters, as alleged in the report made subsequently to his former letter.
Mr. Humeexpressed his unwillingness,
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after the letters of the chief baron, to support the original resolutions; which he had at first felt himself inclined to advocate.
Mr. Wetherellwas of opinion, that the House should come to some conclusion this session on the subject before them; and, looking to the painful situation in which further delay must leave the character of the chief baron, and seeing no case made out, he would support the resolution proposed by his hon. friend.
Mr. R. Martindefended the chief baron, and expressed his intention of supporting the resolution.
Mr. Hudson Gurney, in order to ground the resolution proposed by the learned all the resolution after the word "That," in order to add the words, "the receipt of Fees by Judges in the Courts of Common Law and the Exchequer has been recently abolished by Law."
This amendment was immediately agreed to. After which, Mr. Scarlett's resolution "That this House, under all the circumstances above stated, does not deem it necessary to adopt any farther proceedings in the case of the chief baron O'Grady," being put,
Mr. J. Williamssaid, he could by no means support the resolution of his hon. and learned friend.
Mr. Goulburncontended, that no case of criminality or corruption had been made out against the chief baron, though his conduct might not have been quite so well advised as could have been wished.
Mr. Canning, after briefly reviewing the proceedings which had been taken upon the reports in the House, admitted that he found it difficult to remove his own responsibility, in having been chiefly instrumental to persuading the hon. member for Limerick to adopt resolutions of fact merely, and not to embody anything in them which was only matter of opinion. He knew nothing of the chief baron. Nothing had ever occurred to induce him to turn his thoughts towards that personage. But his impression of the importance of the charge and the nature of the proof, had been weakened at every step of their progress. He could not concur in any vote tending to censure; nor could the House, he thought, assent to any resolution which could be made the ground of an address to the Crown for his removal, or of an accusation by way of impeachment.
Mr. Hutchinsonconcurred in the opinion of the right hon. secretary, that the chief baron could not be inculpated by any thing which had come under the observation of the committee.
Mr. S. Ricefelt satisfied that, however the House might decide, the labours of the committee would not be lost to the public.
The House divided: For Mr. Scarlett's resolution 38. Against it 16. Majority 22.

List of the Minority.

Brougham, H.

Palmer, C. F.

Baillie, col.

Parnell, sir H.

Barry, rt. hon. J. M.

Taylor, M. A.

Canning, rt. hon. G.

Wynn, C. W.

Ferbes, C.

Wigram, W.

Gordon, R.

Williams, J.

Griffiths, J.

TELLERS.

Lamb, hon. G.

Smith (Lincoln) R.

Money, W. T.

Rice, T. S.

Morland, sir S. B.