Commons Sitting of 10 February 1823

THE KING'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.—
The Speakerreported the King's Answer to the Address as follows;—

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"I return you my warmest thanks for this loyal and dutiful Address.—I receive with the greatest satisfaction the assurance of your unanimous concurrence in the principles which I have declared, and in the objects which I have recommended to your attention.—I have nothing so much at heart as the interests and welfare, of my people, and the maintaining of this country at its present eminence among the nations of the world."

IRISH TITHES.—
Sir H. Parnellpresented a petition from the grand jury of Queen's County, praying for a commutation of tithes. He said, he knew of no measure more likely to put an end to the unfortunate disturbances which had so long distracted his ill-fated country, than that which the petitioners prayed fur. He had been informed that the noble marquis at the head of the Irish government, intended to propose to parliament some specific plan for effecting an alteration in the tithe system of Ireland. If that plan should fortunately prove successful, he would confer one of the greatest benefits upon Ireland. As the manner in which tithe was at present exacted was productive of equal inconvenience both to the payer and to the receiver, he trusted that the clergy of Ireland would not oppose the attempt which the noble marquis was now making to reform the system. He likewise hoped that his hon. friend (Mr. Hume) would postpone the motion of which he had given notice, until that which was to be submitted from the Irish government had been introduced to the House.
Colonel Trenchcordially concurred in the prayer of the petitioners. If that prayer was granted, much would be done towards securing the tranquillity of Ireland. The present system of church government in that country was as injurious to the protestant, as it was hostile and oppressive to the catholic part of the community.
Mr. V. Fitzgeraldfully concurred in every syllable which had been said on this subject. Though he conceived the measure which had been passed last session to be completely inefficient and impracticable, he was of opinion, that the discussions which it had occasioned had been of the greatest service. He trusted that the measure which government had in contemplation, would meet with that
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calm and attentive consideration which the magnitude of the question so imperiously demanded.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that the government of Ireland had, from the first moment of its arrival in that country, been sedulously endeavouring to discover, some mode of removing the evils which arose from the present system of collecting tithes. In the last session, he had brought forward a measure for that purpose; and though it might not have been as efficient as he could have wished, still he could not join in condemning it as the useless and impracticable measure which his hon. friend had described it to be. The subject had since that time been again taken into the consideration of the Irish government; and he trusted that when he should submit it to the notice of the House, it would be found worthy of its support and approbation.
Mr. Spring Riceasserted, that a more inefficient measure than that of last session had never been passed. Not one individual throughout Ireland had attempted to take advantage of it. As the declarations of the right hon. secretary were now of the same vague and unsatisfactory nature that they were last session, he trusted that his hon. friend would on no consideration postpone the motion of which he had given notice.
Mr. Secretary Peelthought that the hon. gentleman had no just reason to complain of the vague declarations made by his right hon. friend. The proposed measure would be brought forward at a period sufficiently early to enable the hon. member for Aberdeen to obtain the fullest discussion of his motion upon the same subject. It was desirable that that motion should be postponed, until the plan of the Irish government had been introduced.
Mr. Humesaw no reason why he should give way upon this subject, especially after the long delays on the part of ministers. They, or their friends, had been twenty-five years in office, during which they had done nothing to remedy the admitted evil. It was this delay of remedies that had rendered it necessary to keep down the people of Ireland by military establishments. It was now understood that the clergy of Ireland, after a long and strong opposition, had consented to commute their tithes, for, an acreable assessment. He had no objection to mention the general nature of his

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proposition. He should first contend, that the church property in Ireland was altogether too large for the purpose for which it was intended: next, that there should be no overpaid absentees of 1,000 l., 2,000 l., or 3,000 l. a year, and starved curates of 50 l. 60 l. and 70 l. a year; but that the acting clergyman should be allowed enough for his maintenance as a gentleman. He was opposed to the payment of any clergymen who were not resident; and he should call upon the House to declare this simple proposition—that the church property was set aside by the state for the maintenance of religion, and that it was in the power of parliament to appropriate it in the way most conducive to the interests of religion.
Ordered to lie on the table.

SINKING FUND.—
Mr. Hume, in rising to move that a series of financial papers which had been laid on the table of the House, should be printed, was anxious to preface his motion with a few observations. The title of one of these papers was, "An Account of all Sums paid over to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, for the year ending the 5th Jan. 1823;" and from that document it appeared, that 15,853,000 l. had been so paid over. The system was, however, a complete fillacy. It turned out to be a mere transfer—a paying with one hand, and borrowing with the other, without liquidating any portion of the amount of debt. It was as perfect a farce as was ever played off by any juggler. As the country was about to have a new chancellor of the exchequer, it was to be hoped that, with the old one, this preposterous farce would die. If they must have a sinking fund, let it be a real one, clearly and plainly set forth; and not a mere nominal fund, which could only answer the purposes of delusion.
Mr. Grenfellconcurred with his hon. friend as to the folly of that system which induced government to lay before the House and the country this most idle and unsatisfactory account. He thought, however, that his hon. friend ought, in justice to the late chancellor of the exchequer, to have stated, that that right hon. gentleman had pledged himself, that the whole of that system which his hon. friend reprobated would be re-modelled; and that in future, the account of the sinking-fund should consist only of the surplus of income over expenditure.
Mr. Lushingtonsaid, that one of the earliest objects of government would be to bring the subject of the sinking fund under the consideration of the House, for the purpose of simplifying the system, and rendering it more intelligible.
The Lord Mayor(Mr. Alderman Heygate) deprecated any interference with the sinking fund system, from which the country had derived so much benefit. The proposition to enable the commissioners of the sinking fund to lend the money paid over to them for the service of the year, originated with one of the greatest ministers this country ever saw. It had been approved of by Mr. Fox, and was supported by Mr. Sheridan, and other eminent men, who usually sat on the opposition side of the House. It was a provision which arose from an act of the legislature at the time to which he had alluded; and he confessed he heard with great regret, that it was intended to depart from that system of financial arrangement which had rendered the credit of this country superior to that of any other state in the world. He would contend, that the sinking fund, by the way in which it had been managed, had enabled Great Britain to cope with the most powerful enemy that had ever been opposed to her. The system had been adopted by America, France, Russia, and Prussia; in short, it had been acted on wherever there was any thing like a representative government. He trusted, however anxious gentlemen might be to reduce the taxes, that still there was a spirit in that House which would, he was going to say, compel government to keep faith with the public creditor.
Mr. Lushingtonsaid, that the intention was merely to bring in a bill to simplify the system, and thereby to render it more intelligible.

THE LATE KING'S LIBRARY.—
Lord John Russellbegged to know whether it was true, that his majesty meant to make a gift of the late king's library to the public. If such were the case, it was a proceeding well calculated to strengthen the attachment of the people to the House of Brunswick; and he wished that the high utility of the present might be preserved, by its being placed in such a situation as should make it generally accessible. It was a general complaint, that the metropolis had no sufficient public library; for that of the British Museum

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could scarcely be deemed public. He wished much to see a collection so thrown open as to afford, universally, encouragement to literature. If the country could not, in its present state, afford such an expense, he trusted that the object would be kept in view; and that the magnificent donation now made would form the basis upon which a future establishment might be raised.
Mr. Peelsaid, that the report was well-founded. No particular arrangement as to the disposal of the gift had yet been made; but he doubted not that the object aimed at by the noble lord would be duly attended to.