Commons Sitting of 29 March 1822

VAGRANT LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. Chetwynd,in proposing the second reading of this bill, observed, that the measure contained no provision that was not to be found in the existing laws. He had heard that some persons, particularly ladies, complained that by the bill the minstrels who perambulated the streets would be prevented from serenading theme; but he would inform those persons, that, under the laws at they at present stood, wandering musicians were considered vagrants. It was his intention, on the present occasion, merely to propose that the bill be read a second time.
Colonel Woodseconded the motion. As the bill at present stood, the exhibition of shows was prohibited, and he knew that some persons feared that a very entertaining personage called. Mr. Punch would no longer be allowed to amuse the public. He therefore felt great satisfaction in stating, that his hon. friend would have no objection to introduce a special clause in favour of Mr. Punch. The public were indebted to his hon. friend for the prospect which held out of relieving the country from the heavy expense incurred by the passing of vagrants. The sum which had been expended for that purpose last year amounted to 100,000 l.
Mr. Hurstobserved, that although in the profession of the law, and acting as a magistrate for the last fifty years, he was at this moment unable to define the duties of a peace officer under the present vagrant laws. They were an ill digested mass, and called loudly for revision.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, that the laws relating to vagrants ought to be simplified, and brought under a more concise shape. The public were much indebted to the learned gentleman for the bill now before them.
Mr. Lyttletonsupported the bill, as it tended to distinguish the vagrant laws from the poor laws, of which there had been some danger of their becoming a part.
Mr. P. Moorehoped that his friend Punch, as well as the persons who carried about wild beasts for show, would not be included in the list of vagrants by this law, as they were subjects of great and general amusement.
Alderman Woodsupported the bill, as he thought its provision very salutary.
The bill was read a second time, and referred to a select committee.

SHERIFFS DEPUTE IN SCOTLAND.
Mr. Home Drummondpresented a petition from the dean and faculty of advocates at Edinburgh. He said, that he considered that learned body had conferred a great honour on him in entrusting their petition to his hands, and hoped, from the weight that was due to their opinion, as well as- the importance of the subject to which their petition related, that he might be allowed to explain the nature of the case, concerning which they had been induced to trouble the House on this occasion. By the act of the 20th. Geo. 2nd by which the heritable jurisdictions in Scotland were abolished, his majesty was authorised to appoint a sheriff in every county who should be a lawyer of a certain standing at the Scots bar, and required to reside for a limited, period during each year within his county. The petitioners had heard of an intention, on the part of his majesty's government, to require the sheriffs to reside permanently in their jurisdictions, and it was against this intended alteration of the system that they had presented this petition. He submitted, that if any alteration of this sort was intended it ought to be done by act of parliament. If, in 1748, a statute was necessary to regulate this matter, he did not see why recourse should not be had to the same authority in the year 1822. It was implied necessarily in the act of 1748, that it was in the opinion of the legislature inexpedient to require longer residence than that statute enjoined, and the penalties by which that regulation was enforced could not be made to apply to any farther period of residence. How, then, was his majesty's government to enforce this additional residence they had in view? By making a bargain with the sheriff, by promising him a pecuniary reward—a thing most objectionable in principle; for it was easy to see, that if the government might bargain with a judge to do a certain part of his duty in a particular way, or to do a thing which was not his duty, and to pay him a reward for this, the independence of those jurors was at an end. He was aware that there was no improper object here in view, and that the measure proceeded from an anxious desire to promote the public interest. But he did think that this mode of accomplishing the object was improper. In the next place, he had to submit to the House that the measure was most inexpedient in itself. The object of the act of

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Geo. 2nd was to have the duties of the office discharged by a practising lawyer, and it was a virtual repeal of this purpose to require the sheriffs permanently to reside in the country, at a distance from, the courts of law. The civil business consisted of giving opinions ort written, arguments; and it was of little consequence to the lieges whether the sheriff read those papers at Edinburgh or else where. There were no civil causes tried by viva voce debates; and with regard to Glasgow in particular, if there were a greater number of important questions arising there than elsewhere, it was of the more consequence to have a good lawyer and not a country gentleman to decide them. As to, the criminal department, it was said, that there was a great accumulation of business of that sort at Glasgow. It did not follow that the plan proposed was the best way to dispose of it. But the fact was; that all the criminal business within the city of Glasgow was, conducted by the magistrates in the, Burgh Court, who had done themselves much credit by their mode of discharging that duty. The commissioners on Scots courts of justice certainly had not had this fact in view, when they reported that Lanarkshire should be an exception from the other counties. They had given an opinion on the general principle, in favor of the view of the subject maintained by the petitioners, and then they went on to recommend a proceeding at Glasgow at variance with this principle. The recent disturbances at Glasgow had been founded on as an argument for this measure. But if they were to legislate for such emergencies, they should make five resident sheriffs instead of one. Five sheriffs were actually appointed at that time, and it was a necessary measure to prevent the great number of persons apprehended from being a long time detained without examination. The lord advocate of Scotland was at one time resident in Glasgow, but he conceived there was one learned person on the Treasury bench, who would agree with him, that it was not desirable to make that officer permanently resident in Glasgow. He conceived it out of the question to legislate for such emergencies. The fact was, that the sheriff of every county was always in his county at such times. He was unwilling to fatigue the House by saying more on the subject. His opinion entirely coincided with the petition.
Sir J. Montgomerieadmitted that much good had resulted from the act of 1748; but at the same time he contended, that change of circumstances and manners might have operated to require the alteration now proposed. The sheriff of Edinburgh was always resident, and he would put it to any man to bear testimony how well the business of his court was carried on, owing to that permanent residence, and he was desirous of having Glasgow placed on the same footing.
Mr. Secretary Peelwas decidedly of opinion, that as the sheriff-depute of Edinburgh was a resident officer in his shrievalty, so ought the sheriff Lanarkshire. That judge had Glasgow in his district, a large and populous city, requiring the constant residence of this important officer, and therefore he was of opinion that this alteration at least should be introduced into the act of 1748, that its sheriff should be a constant resident, and that he should be placed on the same footing as the sheriff of Edinburgh, who had a salary of 800 l.; and, in fact, government were decidedly of opinion that this alteration should be adopted, care being taken that the alteration should be rendered as little inconvenient to individuals as possible.
Mr. Abercrombysaid, that, with the exception of Edinburgh, Lanarkshire, and Renfrew perhaps, he was decidedly of opinion that constant residence should not be required. The learned gentleman recommended an act of parliament.
Lord A. Hamiltonargued, that the measure ought to be carried into effect by an act of parliament, though for his part, he had no hopes of a proper person being induced, by 800 l. a year, to abandon his profession, and retire from practice at the bar. He thought the salary should be increased by act of parliament, and called on the right hon. secretary to bring forward a bill for that purpose.
Mr. Peelsaid, he would not pledge himself to bring any measure before parliament.
The Lord Advocatewas of opinion, that the faculty of advocates were misled in the opinion they had formed upon the intended measure of government. He believed that they expected a measure for nicking the whole of the sheriffs of the counties of Scotland reside within their jurisdiction. Nothing was ever farther from the intention of government.
The petition was then read.
Mr. Home Drummond,on moving that it be printed, said, that he entertained serious doubts if the bargain the right hon. gentleman seemed about to make, in promising the sheriff a sum of money for doing a thing which the law did not require of him, was, under all circumstances of the case, a legal transaction.
Mr. Kennedyobjected to the point of residence resting between government and the sheriff. He wished for a bill on the subject.
The petition was ordered to be printed.

ROMAN CATHOLIC PEERS.
Mr. Canningrose, for the purpose of giving a notice, to which he begged to call the attention of his right hon. friend the attorney-general for Ireland. Gentlemen who had been present during the debates of last year, on the bill for the relief of the Roman Catholics, might possibly do him the honour to recollect, that in one of those discussions he had insisted strongly upon the state of the law affecting Catholic peers, and had intimated his intention of bringing that part of the subject forward at a future time: he had since repeated this design more privately to gentlemen on both sides of the House. Nothing could be farther from his wish than to interfere, in any degree, with the larger and more general measure, which, if brought forward, he would promote to the best of his abilities: but, on the expediency of bringing it forward at the present moment, he offered no opinion. As the session was advancing, and as to postpone the notice until after the holydays might even endanger the entertaining of the subject at all, he took that opportunity of stating, that on the 30th April he would move for leave to bring in a bill to repeal so much of the act of the 30th Charles 2nd as debars Roman Catholic peers from exercising their right of sitting and voting in the House of Lords. It was due to the noble persons whose interests were concerned, to declare solemnly, and upon his honour, that he had had no communication with them, upon the subject of the present notice.
Mr. Plunkettsaid, that the particular measure noticed by the right hon. gentleman formed a very principal part of the great question which, last year, he had the honour of bringing forward. With regard to the general measure, if the expediency of reviving the subject depended upon himself—if he were called upon to
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say, whether it ought to be brought forward during the present session, or early in the next, he should feel much difficulty in expressing an opinion. He did not say, that he was not inclined to a particular opinion, but precisely he could not take upon himself to say that he had formed one. It had been intimated to him, that the Catholics of Ireland intended again to confide to his hands the presentation of their petition. He had expressed to them how deeply he felt himself honoured by being intrusted with so valuable a charge, and had told them that he should certainly take the earliest opportunity in this session of laying their petition before the House, and of calling its attention not only to the importance but to the urgency of the measure for which it prayed. As to what might be the wishes of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, he declared he could not with certainty speak. On the propriety of introducing the subject at present, he thought that no individual could arrogate to himself the right of' forming a conclusive judgment: it could only be arrived at after a full communication with the friends of the measure, in England and in Ireland, in that House and out of it. For the Roman Catholics of Ireland he thought he could say, that they would be governed by the sentiments of those whom they deemed their sincere and zealous friends. If those friends thought it advisable to bring it forward, it should have his warm, cordial, and unalterable support. As to the noble persons interested in the notice just given, he was glad that his right hon. friend had given that notice without any communication with them. No man in the community could feel an objection to their claims having the priority. They were the last who were deprived of their rights and dignities; and all would allow that they had a strong claim to be the first to be restored to them.
Mr. Tierneybelieved, that but one opinion would be felt as to the notice of the right hon. gentleman. From the attorney-general for Ireland, he wished to know whether he had made up his mind upon the fitness of introducing the measure for the relief of the whole body of Catholics; or whether his ultimate opinion was to depend upon the sentiment entertained by the friends of the measure, in England and in Ireland, in the House and out of it? No doubt it was fit to collect the judgment of the various parties, but he

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would recollect that time was rapidly passing away, and unless a notice were given before Easter, it must be brought forward at so late a period of the sessions, that full justice could scarcely be clone to it. He felt no hesitation in saying, that he did not see from what quarter an objection could come. After the success of last year in that House, and the limited number by which it was rejected elsewhere, nothing could be more encouraging than the prospect at present afforded. The right hon. gentleman was now certainly in the way of knowing things of which he (Mr. T.) was ignorant; but the least he could do was, to make up his mind on this important question.
Mr. Plunkettsaid, it would afford him great satisfaction, could he give a more explicit answer to his right hon. friend. He had not been able yet to bring his mind to any definite conclusion, though he was not conscious of having omitted any means of informing himself upon the subject. The sentiments of the Roman Catholics with whom he was connected would, of course, mainly govern him; and he had every reason to believe that they were not at present anxious to press the matter forward. He felt that he should not do right if he now entered into the question as to the time when it might or might not be proper to introduce the subject; but he must be considered as exercising his own discretion on a matter so momentous: he had given it every possible attention, without being influenced by any indirect view, either public or personal. Whenever he found that it could be discussed favourably, he would not be backward to bring the question forward. He begged to remind the right hon. gentleman that this had never been considered an annual measure, to be brought forward session after session. It had been said, that the success of last year was a strong argument for persevering; but he could not bring his mind to any such conclusion. The nearer he approached to the final accomplishment of the object, the more tremulous was his feeling with respect to it. He did not think the state of Ireland at this time, such as to warrant the friends of the Catholics in pressing for an early discussion of their claims; and he really believed that the Roman Catholics had good taste and good feeling enough to abstain. Whether or not, philosophically speaking, the prevailing discontents in Ireland might
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be a reason for urging the question, was a point upon which he gave no opinion. He did not think it a desirable experiment, unless there was a moral certainty of success. If it were successful, nothing could certainly diffuse greater satisfaction; but if, on the other hand, it were unsuccessful, nothing was more likely to rouse and irritate the people of Ireland. He had only to repeat, that the present leaning of his mind was, that this was an unfavourable season for the discussion of the question.
Mr. Brightobserved, that the measure of which the right hon. gentleman had given notice, was one great step to the admission of the Catholics to political power, and should be resisted accordingly.
Sir J. Newportsaid, that he looked at the Catholic question in a light directly opposed to the view of the attorney-general for Ireland. The state of that country seemed to him an additional reason for bringing forward the measure without delay, since, in his opinion, it would accomplish the permanent tranquility of Ireland. The question was not open to other individuals until the right hon. gentleman relinquished it, no other individual was warranted in interfering with it. He was opinion, that the Catholic question ought to be brought forward this session, and that no time ought to be lost.

MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES—COMMISSARIAT—BARRACKS.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. Arbuthnotsaid, that in proposing a vote for the Commissariat Department, he felt it necessary to trouble the committee with a few words, in explanation of the manner in which the estimates were drawn up this year, prior to any question being put to him on the subject. The estimates were drawn up in a mode differing considerably from that which was adopted last year, and it became his duty to state in what the alteration consisted. Last year the rations for the commissariat department were, on the whole estimate, taken at a fraction beyond 6d., and the total expense was 159,000 l. In the present year, the charge was reduced to 101,000 l. in consequence of the reduction of the number of troops. The ration during the present year would amount to only 4½d., as provisions had fallen con-

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siderably; but the soldier would have the advantage of the odd three-halfpence; the practice being, that when the ration cost more than sixpence, the public paid the excess; but if it fell below that sum, the soldier reaped, the benefit of the reduction. The charge for candles and stores last year was 41,000 l.; but as there were fewer troops to be provided for in the present year, only 35,000 l. would be necessary. With regard to the pay of the commissariat department, it was last year 52,000 l.; but it was now reduced to 49,000 l. Fewer individuals were employed, but the same number of stations was continued. Last year the half-pay connected with the commissariat amounted to 33,068 l.; it was this year increased to 45,284 l. There had been a considerable reduction of numbers in the commissariat department, and that circumstance of course tended to increase the half-pay list. There was also some small addition to the expense of the department, occasioned by the promotion of certain officers at the period of the coronation. The officers of this department had served their country most essentially on the Peninsula, and it was thought that they deserved some reward in time of peace; but, from the year 1816, until the coronation took place, there had been only two promotions. In the last year, there was a promotion both in the army and navy; and it was felt, that if some meritorious officers were not promoted in the commissariat, it would be considered as a very great hardship. Four individuals were, therefore, promoted to the highest class—that of commissaries-general; six to the second class; four to the third; and sixteen clerks were promoted to the last class. With regard to the pensions granted to widows, there was some increase under that head. Many individuals connected with the commissariat department had fallen victims to the unhealthiness of foreign climates, and their widows had been placed on the compassionate list. The next head of expense was the establishment of the different commissariat offices in Great Britain. The expenditure for those offices last year was 16,283 l.; in the present year it was 15,280 l. A very considerable saving had been effected, by circumscribing as much as possible the number of labourers who were employed. When the storekeeper-general's department was annexed to the commissariat, it was found extremely difficult to
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transact the business of the office without employing a great number of labourers; but the gentleman who was now at the head of the commissariat department had, in the course of two years, reduced the number of labourers from 129 to 50. Indeed, the number was so greatly reduced, that it was found necessary, at times, to employ extra labourers; but it was thought better that labourers should be hired as they were wanted, than a permanent charge be imposed on the public. Under this head, 4,500 l. had been saved in the last year. The last item consisted of rent paid for storehouses at Woolwich and other places. Last year the sum charged was 8,000 l.; in the present year it was between 3,000 l. and 4,000 l. The items in the aggregate amounted to 357,358 l., from which was to be deducted 22,718 l., the amount of stores at present in the dépôt, leaving a nett sum of 334,640 l. for the commissariat department in Great Britain. The commissariat department abroad required 49,118 l.; but from that was to be deducted the sum of 6,118 l., which was paid out of the colonial revenue up the Mediterranean, leaving 43,000 l. for this branch of the service. It was stated last year, that it would be desirable to make an arrangement, by which there should be only one storekeeper's department. When the observation was made, he said, that if it could be effected consistently with the public service, the alteration should undoubtedly be made. His majesty's ministers had taken the subject into consideration, and he could now state, that, though the change was not actually made, yet it was decided on, and the storekeeper's department would next year be transferred to the Ordnance. While he was speaking on this subject, the committee would allow him to observe, that the gentleman at the head of the commissariat had executed the duties of the storekeeper's department, as connected with the commissariat branch of service, in the best possible manner; and he hoped, when the transfer was effected, that the board of Ordnance would take care to see the duties of the storekeeper's department executed as ably as they were at present. They might, perhaps, dismiss some of the officers, and reduce the charge of the establishment, but he was convinced they could not improve the system which Mr. Hill had introduced. The duties performed by Mr.

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Hill, both in the storekeeper's department, and in that of the commissariat, were most meritorious. Indeed, he did not think there existed a more zealous or efficient public servant. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving, "That 334,640 l. be granted for the expense of the Commissariat Department, for the year 1822."
Mr. Humesaid, the committee must feel satisfied with the explanation given by the right hon. gentleman. He, for one, was greatly pleased with it. He was glad to find that the right hon. gentleman had endeavoured to simplify the mode of drawing up those estimates by rendering the different items more clear and distinct than they had usually been. There was a very considerable reduction of expense in this department. Last year the sum voted was 401,000 l.; in the present year only 334,000 l. was required. He believed the right hon. gentleman was most anxious for reduction; and he would not, therefore, carve out objections unnecessarily. It was, however, quite impossible for the House to judge whether several of these items were too large or too small, because particulars were not specified. There was, for instance, a sum of 25,000 l. put down for coals and candles for the use of barracks; and certainly, when that sum was placed in a lump, the House could not judge whether it was proper or improper. There was also a sum of 70,000 l. charged for barrack-stores; but the expense for each particular item was not given. He thought, therefore, that these estimates might be still farther simplified. He was doubtful whether the expense for the erection and repair of barracks should be introduced here. The entire expense of barracks ought to be placed under the head of "barrack estimates," and not under that of "commissariat." He did not say that it would lessen the aggregate amount; but it would be satisfactory to have every item under its proper head. Here he saw a charge for the clothing of convicts at New South Wales. This he objected to. It would be much better if the whole expense of the colony of New South Wales were placed under one distinct head. That one account of 70,000 l. comprised 40 or 50 different items. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would have no objection to specify the sum appropriated to each item. He certainly would not con-
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sent, next year, to vote a sum of 70,000 l. without explanation. There was a charge made for provisions supplied to foreign garrisons, and he found a similar item in the navy estimates. He was unable to discover what provisions were alluded to in the present vote. At all events, he was convinced that they ought not to be supplied, either by the navy or the commissariat. Provisions for garrisons abroad ought to be placed under a separate and distinct head. He and his hon. friends had last year pressed on the attention of government the necessity of removing the department of storekeeper-general. This they recommended for the purpose of getting rid of the heavy expense incurred for store-houses, it being their opinion, that the houses already provided for Ordnance-stores were amply sufficient for the stores placed under the care of the storekeeper-general. He wished to know from the right hon. gentleman whether such a saving would be effected in consequence of the change to which he had alluded? If a change did not take place to that extent, very little good would arise from the projected alteration. In the first page he saw the estimated expense of forage for the cavalry; but he could not conceive why other items were charged under that head, and afterwards deducted. There was, he observed, a sum of 1000 l. to make good any excess that might occur in the contract for rations. He did not know in what part of the country suck an excess of price was likely to occur. The number of commissaries in our colonies he considered to be by far too great. In Canada there were last year 73; this year the number was reduced to 61. In Nova Scotia there were 22 commissaries. Here were 83 commissaries in these two places. There were, besides, eight commissaries of accounts in Canada, and four in Nova Scotia, making a total of 95 commissaries in these two stations. Certainly, a considerable reduction might be made with respect to these appointments. He saw, amongst the superannuations, a charge of 1,200 l. which was paid to Mr. Herries. He had also, as auditor of civil list accounts, a salary of 1,500 l., making altogether 2,700 l. per annum. He was at the same time acting as a commissioner in Ireland. Now, he wished to be informed, whether Mr. Herries received any, and what allowance, for his services in this latter capacity? There was likewise a charge of 1,100 l. paid to Mr.

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Trotter, who had been only 11 years in the service. This he thought a most extravagant grant. It had been said, that this allowance was granted on account of great length of service; but such was not the fact. This individual had been for some years in the office of his uncle, Mr. Trotter, who was agent for stores; but he was not in the service of the public until 1808 or 1809, when he was taken out of his uncle's office. Very considerable reductions might certainly be effected in the superannuation list.
Mr. Arbuthnot,adverting to the remarks which had fallen from the hon. gentleman respecting the storekeeper's department, said, he had, perhaps, been rather remiss in not stating that arrangements had been made, which afforded him every reason to hope, that the whole duty of that department would in future be transferred to the Ordnance. He could assure the hon. gentleman, that though a year had elapsed since this subject had been mentioned, the time had not been passed in idleness. His thoughts had been anxiously turned to it, with a view of making the transfer as soon as this could be effected, with due regard to economy, and proper attention to the public service. He believed he might say, that from this time forward, the whole of the business of the Store1ceeper's department would be transacted at the Ordnance. The item of 70,000 l. which had been alluded to, he could only submit to the House as he had now brought it forward. Hereafter there would be no difficulty in obtaining information as to the manner in which it might be applied; but at present all he could say was, that that sum had been spent in the last year, under the head which appeared in the estimates, and it was reasonable to suppose, that a like sum would hereafter be wanted. With respect to the warehouses in Tooley-street, which had been alluded to, he had every reason to believe that they would soon be got rid of, but under what circumstances they would be turned on the hands of the proprietors he could not now take upon himself to say. As to the number of commissaries kept up in Canada, Nova Scotia, and the West Indies, he was sorry that he had not with him a paper which he had left at home, stating the number of stations occupied by the troops. At Gibraltar, where the soldiers were nearly all in one place, but few commissaries were necessary; but scattered as the forces were at the other
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places which had been mentioned, it must be seen that a much greater number of commissaries were called for, and the expense of provisions, and stores must be greatly augmented if a sufficient number of officers were not retained to watch and protect them. If, consistently with the public interest, the number could be reduced, such reduction should take place. Remarks had been made on Mr. Herries. That gentleman received 2,700 l. for his services. He believed it was well known, that he had performed his duty in a most satisfactory manner. It might be proper to state, that though Mr. Herries was now included in the parliamentary commission appointed to inquire into the state of the public offices in Ireland; he received no salary for that duty. He ought to say too that, if Mr. Herries retained his situation as auditor, it was no fault of his, as he had wished to relinquish it last year, that he might wholly give himself up to the other duties that claimed his attention. For Mr. Trotter, though the hon. gentleman denied his claim to consideration for long services, it ought to be remembered, that his peculiar fitness for the situation which he had filled, had raised him to it. Having received 2,000 l. per annum during the war, he thought he had not been improperly allowed to retire on an income of little more than 1,000 l.
Mr. Bennetsaid, that the income of Mr. Herries, 2,700 l. was one that might well startle them, for such an income had never been heard of' for a clerk before. He admitted Mr. Herries to be a most meritorious servant, but he objected to that scandalous prodigality which gave him so large a reward.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerspoke to the meritorious services of Mr. Herries, and begged to inform the hon. member, that there were very few members of that House whose education and talents surpassed those of that gentleman. The hon. gentleman was not justified in considering him merely as a clerk. From a clerk to the Treasury he had risen to a most important situation, having, in every instance, given the highest satisfaction to the heads of his department. Mr. Herries to the close of the war had been entrusted under a commission with the management of an immense sum connected with the military expenditure of the country. No less than 17,000,000 l. had passed through his hands, for which he had accurately accounted, and for the disbursement of

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which he had disclaimed all remuneration. He had also rendered important services to the country in connexion with the new arrangement of the civil list, and had put the accounts on such a footing that no accumulation of debt had since occurred. Mt. Trotter, it was true, had not been in the public service so long as Mr. Herries. But though he had not served the country more than eleven years, the House could not be ignorant of the great exertions which that gentleman had made in various places abroad, and especially in the Netherlands. The number of commissaries kept up in Canada were necessary, while our troops in that quarter were scattered as they were at present. To diminish the number of those whose duty it was to watch over the provisions and stores before the forces could be more concentrated, would be the worst economy.
Mr. Bennetdid not mean to deny that Mr. Herries was a most excellent servant. What he objected to was, that he had received the salary which ought to pay a higher office than that which he had filled.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that since it was admitted that Mr. Herries was a most excellent servant, he would take upon himself the responsibility of having advised a just remuneration for his services.
Mr. Bennetsaid, it was easy for the right hon. gentleman to refer the House to his responsibility. Though he had often heard of responsibility in that House, he had yet to learn what the word meant. He did not know whether the day of real responsibility would ever arrive, but he hoped to God that it would, and that, too, while the present ministers were living.
The resolution was agreed to. On the resolution, "That 121,600 l. be granted for defraying the expense of the Barrack department for the year 1822,"
Mr. Humeexpressed himself satisfied with the proposed transfer of the storekeeper-general's department to the Ordnance. But, on the item of 27,000 l. for barrack-masters, he could not express the same satisfaction. It had last year been 29,000 l. The whole of this charge in 1818 had been 99,100 l. There had been then no such sum as 60,000 l. for alterations and repairs. In Oldham and Manchester, barracks had been built or repaired since at great expense, anti they were now empty. He had reason to
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complain that a return of all the barracks which had been ordered had not been made. From 1791 to 1796 the charge had been but 40,000 l. This increase was most extravagant. By reducing the salaries of barrack-masters to 90 l. a saving of 10,000 l. would be made, and this saving he hoped to be able to persuade the committee to make. Half-pay officers would be glad to take the situation. But persons had been appointed who had never been connected with the army. He had last year pointed out an instance of a linen-draper who was a barrack-master. This year he found an ironmonger a barrack master. Upon the vote for barrack-masters, then, he proposed a reduction of 10,000 l. With respect to the next item of 60,000 l., he could not help thinking that so large a sum of money was ill applied in the repairs of barracks. It would be better by far to let the barracks go to ruin, and to build new ones, if ever (which heaven forbid) they should be wanted. One half, at least, of the 60,000 l. might be dispensed with; and certainly one half of the charge might be saved upon the item of barrack offices. The hon. member concluded by moving, "that 111,600 l. be granted, instead of 121,600 l."
Mr. Arbuthnotsaid, that since he had been in office he had never appointed any person to the situation of barrack-master who was not connected with the army. It was a mistake to suppose that a barrack master had nothing to do at present; for he had the care of the barracks and of the stores. He had never made an appointment from political motives; indeed ho could appeal to the hon. member for Shrewsbury to bear him out in this assertion with respect to a particular case. [Mr. Bennet assented.] In consequence of the observation which had been made; last year as to the barrack-master at Haddington, he had directed inquiry to be made; and the result of it was, that the individual in question was not a linen-draper, and that he regularly discharged the duties of his situation. As to the objection to the sum for repairs, it was impossible to prevent the barracks falling to ruin, unless they were repaired.
Colonel Woodsaid, that as to the general question of repairs, he certainly thought that too many barracks had been built; but it would be penny wise and pound foolish to pull them down or to suffer them to fall into decay. He did not think many officers on half-pay would

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accept the situation of barrack-master.
Mr. W. Smiththought it impossible for any gentleman to go into a detail of the estimates without committing mistakes, and those mistakes were sure to be thrown in his teeth by the gentlemen opposite. Surely 60,630 l. must be a most enormous sum for barrack repairs, when the whole charge for bread, meat, and forage was 101,700 l. only.
Sir J. Newportsaid, it appeared as if there was no limit to the discretion of the barrack department. He observed a sum of 10,000 l. for repairs in the last year, though they appeared to be of a temporary nature, and though the particulars of the charges were not given.
Mr. Arbuthnotsaid, that no considerable expense was ever incurred without the approbation of the Treasury. He was not able to give the particulars of the sum alluded to, on account of the illness of the officer at the head of the barrack department.
Mr. R. Smiththought the circumstance just mentioned by the right hon. gentleman was an irresistible argument in favour of the amendment. The expenditure of Abe last year was in general a guide for that of the present; and as the 10,000 l. in question had been laid out for extraordinary repairs, it was not likely that a similar sum would be required this year.
Mr. Arbuthnotsaid, that as there certainly appeared to be some foundation for the argument that the repairs in question were extraordinary, and as he was, for the reasons he had mentioned, not able to give the committee the particulars of it, he would not press the vote, but would agree that the 10,000 l. should be deducted from the proposed vote.
Mr. Bennetsaid, that the motion of his hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen, was intended as a reduction of the allowances to barrack-masters, and was therefore not touched by the concession which had just been made. With regard to the present vote, he really thought that as much as 40,000 l. ought to be taken off; 10,000 l. from the salaries, and 30,000 l. from the repairs. The barracks at Manchester and Oldham were perfectly useless, and were admitted to be so; and as for the barrack in the Regent's-park, it was erected in a most inconvenient situation, and was damp and unhealthy. He objected also to the allowance of a horse and barrack carriage, for each barrack-master.
Mr. Arbuthnotsaid, he understood the object of the hon. member for Aberdeen was merely to take 10,000 l. from the vote, and to that he had consented; but he could not agree to any further reduction. Several barracks had been given up; and among them those at Manchester.
Mr. Humesaid, he had last year opposed the grant for the barracks at Manchester, and his arguments had failed in convincing the House. Now, it appeared, that the barracks were given up, and the money was lost to the public.
Mr. Arbuthnotsaid, it was only the temporary barracks at Manchester to which he had alluded. Those of a permanent nature were retained.
The resolution as amended to 111,600 l. was then agreed to. On the resolution, "That 40,000 l. be granted for the expense of Works and Repairs of Public Buildings," Mr. Alderman Wood moved that the consideration of the vote be postponed. Upon this the committee divided: For the Amendment, 33; Against it, 7.5. The resolution was then agreed to.

List of the Minority.

Bennet, hon. H. G.

Hurst, R.

Baring, sir T.

James, Wm.

Bernal, R.

Moore, P.

Bright, H.

Monck, J. B.

Boughey, sir F.

Newport, sir J.

Barrett, S. B. M.

Ord, W.

Benett, J.

Powlett, hon. W.

Chetwynd, G.

Pym, F.

Crespigny, sir W. De

Ricardo, D.

Duncannon, visct.

Robarts, col.

Dickinson, W.

Sefton, lord

Evans, W.

Smith, W.

Farrand, R.

Sykes, D.

Griffith, J. W.

Williams, W.

Gipps, G.

Warre, J. A.

Hume, J.

Wood, M.